Don’t be a hoser*, eh? March 7, 2025 1:00 PM Subscribe
Although many tariffs are again delayed, the political landscape has been shifted by Donald Trump and Canadians and Americans uneasily find themselves on opposite sides of a border that is, economically at the least and potentially existentially under threat. If this week’s tariff thread is any indication, this fracture can lead to differences in opinion and sentiment – new and old – flaring up on the site. This post is from a Canadian perspective – one, because there are many of course. Hoping it may help to express a minority (8% of all traffic) perspective and also have some discourse. This is NOT a policy or mod ask. All opinions my own.
Canadians are not Americans
I think because of shared values on our site (diversity and equity; social supports; discourse and understanding) and in terms of which cultural products cross the border and how, Americans including MeFites sometimes perceive Canadians as Democrats or left-leaning Americans-lite.
Canadians are inundated by American media and understand many of the references; even our own media gives a lot of coverage to US stories. In contrast, the Canadian media that reaches the US frequently is a slice of content that intrinsically appeals to Americans because of their biases about Canada and so reinforces that view. Canadians also have a lot of history of being in the shadow of the US and it can be a hot button, just so you know before you press it.
For the most part, Canadians might come across as allies on MetaFilter because we are immersed in the American dialogue on an American site and we are aligned. However our education and our understanding of the world and Pax Americana is quite different at times.
Also, Canadians cannot vote in US elections; Canadians hold little influence over US policies or actions, especially right now; Canada has just over 1/10th the US population in a much larger geographic space, although it is concentrated along the border. We are not like internal allies. As Rick Mercer once asked "Do you think Canada should be allowed to stand by and just ignore the American Constitution?"
Trump’s threats are quite real here
Our economy is already taking a significant hit – American companies are already cancelling orders because they don’t know if there will be tariffs; companies are digging in and freezing hiring, not going through on purchases, etc., and Canadians are following suit. Economically, we are looking at a disaster that could, especially combined with climate change, look like a depression.
So if you are suddenly taken aback by Canadians being emotional about things, please know that we are looking at impacts that far outweigh the equivalent economic impact in the US. Even if our trade is more-or-less (a little less than more) equalized, that trade loss has a much higher impact here due to our smaller size in population.
This is not the same as “does Trump impact on people equally.” This is about threads related to Canada-US relations and policies. The impact on Canada is significant.
Yes, you are American
I guess it’s universal for a citizenry to not want to be lumped in with aggressive foreign policies and so on, but there was a lot of #NotAllAmericans going on in that thread. This went about as well as any NotAll… conversations go, that is, badly.
In discussions about international relations it is normal to refer to “the US” “American interests” and even, yes, “Americans.” In this context (annexation by crushing the Canadian economy), the US is externally one entity.
That does not mean someone is calling you, dear reader, personally, out.
The fact that you have a strong sense that when someone says “Americans” they mean you, personally, at all times, and you and your unique vote and moral perspective is important singularly to be acknowledged, is in fact a product of some aspects of American culture (not that we aren't all prone to it.) Here in our grade 3-6 social justice curriculum, in my province anyway, kids learn that if they feel uncomfortable with words like ‘settlers’ or phrases like ‘Canadians created residential schools,’’ that is part of truth and sometimes reconciliation. As a rule, if labels can only be used in one direction, that is supremacy.
It’s not all about you
I understand there are also a lot of scared Americans right now, federal workers and ex-workers and so on. We Canadians are very sympathetic for you individually. But from a site perspective, there are probably 20 or more posts about US domestic policy for every one that is a US-Canada policy post. And there are also just Canadian-focused posts.** I would ask that you not turn every US-Canada or Canadian posts into “but it’s terrible here” posts. We'll come into those threads to give you support.
The American playground
Here’s an area that is always sensitive, but even more so as Trump plays around with us and calls us the 51st state. Americans, I love you, I am by birth one of you. But in aggregate you behave in ways you probably understand and also in ways you probably don’t, that the world is your oyster and Canada is always the destination for every Underground Railroad, the land of the peaceful draft-dodger welcome wagon and the escape hatch for Gilead.
When you use phrases like “well, I’ll just have to move to Canada then!” and so on, it grates a little. Many if not most Canadians have encountered Americans that were confused and upset to learn that we have laws that are different, including immigration and gun laws. Also, any immigration system that has quotas will be making tough choices – worldwide. During the Vietnam War you may remember that draft dodgers were welcomed…but it was because Canada wanted smart, educated and probably white young men. It is not because Canada exists as an escape hatch for US policy.
But more than that, that is how Trump is treating Canada – like if the US runs out of water and minerals, he’ll just come to Canada. Please don’t be like that.
Totally fine to disagree
It's totally okay to disagree on things; it will keep the heat down a bit if we can avoid some of the not-really-on-topic parts of the conversation, IMO.
Thanks for listening.
*Hoser, plus bonus explanation of CanCon rules. (Not totally direct quote: "hoser is what you call your brother when your mom won't let you swear...like NBC won't")
** I think this has been much better lately, thank you!
Canadians are not Americans
I think because of shared values on our site (diversity and equity; social supports; discourse and understanding) and in terms of which cultural products cross the border and how, Americans including MeFites sometimes perceive Canadians as Democrats or left-leaning Americans-lite.
Canadians are inundated by American media and understand many of the references; even our own media gives a lot of coverage to US stories. In contrast, the Canadian media that reaches the US frequently is a slice of content that intrinsically appeals to Americans because of their biases about Canada and so reinforces that view. Canadians also have a lot of history of being in the shadow of the US and it can be a hot button, just so you know before you press it.
For the most part, Canadians might come across as allies on MetaFilter because we are immersed in the American dialogue on an American site and we are aligned. However our education and our understanding of the world and Pax Americana is quite different at times.
Also, Canadians cannot vote in US elections; Canadians hold little influence over US policies or actions, especially right now; Canada has just over 1/10th the US population in a much larger geographic space, although it is concentrated along the border. We are not like internal allies. As Rick Mercer once asked "Do you think Canada should be allowed to stand by and just ignore the American Constitution?"
Trump’s threats are quite real here
Our economy is already taking a significant hit – American companies are already cancelling orders because they don’t know if there will be tariffs; companies are digging in and freezing hiring, not going through on purchases, etc., and Canadians are following suit. Economically, we are looking at a disaster that could, especially combined with climate change, look like a depression.
So if you are suddenly taken aback by Canadians being emotional about things, please know that we are looking at impacts that far outweigh the equivalent economic impact in the US. Even if our trade is more-or-less (a little less than more) equalized, that trade loss has a much higher impact here due to our smaller size in population.
This is not the same as “does Trump impact on people equally.” This is about threads related to Canada-US relations and policies. The impact on Canada is significant.
Yes, you are American
I guess it’s universal for a citizenry to not want to be lumped in with aggressive foreign policies and so on, but there was a lot of #NotAllAmericans going on in that thread. This went about as well as any NotAll… conversations go, that is, badly.
In discussions about international relations it is normal to refer to “the US” “American interests” and even, yes, “Americans.” In this context (annexation by crushing the Canadian economy), the US is externally one entity.
That does not mean someone is calling you, dear reader, personally, out.
The fact that you have a strong sense that when someone says “Americans” they mean you, personally, at all times, and you and your unique vote and moral perspective is important singularly to be acknowledged, is in fact a product of some aspects of American culture (not that we aren't all prone to it.) Here in our grade 3-6 social justice curriculum, in my province anyway, kids learn that if they feel uncomfortable with words like ‘settlers’ or phrases like ‘Canadians created residential schools,’’ that is part of truth and sometimes reconciliation. As a rule, if labels can only be used in one direction, that is supremacy.
It’s not all about you
I understand there are also a lot of scared Americans right now, federal workers and ex-workers and so on. We Canadians are very sympathetic for you individually. But from a site perspective, there are probably 20 or more posts about US domestic policy for every one that is a US-Canada policy post. And there are also just Canadian-focused posts.** I would ask that you not turn every US-Canada or Canadian posts into “but it’s terrible here” posts. We'll come into those threads to give you support.
The American playground
Here’s an area that is always sensitive, but even more so as Trump plays around with us and calls us the 51st state. Americans, I love you, I am by birth one of you. But in aggregate you behave in ways you probably understand and also in ways you probably don’t, that the world is your oyster and Canada is always the destination for every Underground Railroad, the land of the peaceful draft-dodger welcome wagon and the escape hatch for Gilead.
When you use phrases like “well, I’ll just have to move to Canada then!” and so on, it grates a little. Many if not most Canadians have encountered Americans that were confused and upset to learn that we have laws that are different, including immigration and gun laws. Also, any immigration system that has quotas will be making tough choices – worldwide. During the Vietnam War you may remember that draft dodgers were welcomed…but it was because Canada wanted smart, educated and probably white young men. It is not because Canada exists as an escape hatch for US policy.
But more than that, that is how Trump is treating Canada – like if the US runs out of water and minerals, he’ll just come to Canada. Please don’t be like that.
Totally fine to disagree
It's totally okay to disagree on things; it will keep the heat down a bit if we can avoid some of the not-really-on-topic parts of the conversation, IMO.
Thanks for listening.
*Hoser, plus bonus explanation of CanCon rules. (Not totally direct quote: "hoser is what you call your brother when your mom won't let you swear...like NBC won't")
** I think this has been much better lately, thank you!
For Canada-specific posts, could we leave off the uspolitics tag? Early on I thought that thread was about the larger issue of tariffs, so was surprised to see the tension that cropped up--I'd looked at the tags for a sanity-check and sure enough there were three US-related tags.
posted by mittens at 1:39 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
posted by mittens at 1:39 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
I think that's a great suggestion mittens, although I can see that then it won't filter off for people blocking that tag.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:41 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
posted by warriorqueen at 1:41 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
warriorqueen, thank you for writing this. I found it thought-provoking and helpful, and I'll be taking more care with how I talk about Canada -- not just on MetaFilter -- because of what you took the time and thought to share here. Thank you.
posted by brainwane at 1:52 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
posted by brainwane at 1:52 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
I am still pretty optimistic about keeping our country, but I won't lie that I feel some panic at my beloved home being subject to an invasion of another country. It's surreal and scary.
posted by Kitteh at 2:32 PM on March 7 [10 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 2:32 PM on March 7 [10 favorites]
I had some didactic stuff I edited out but a few links for anyone interested before I close all my tabs:
Underground railroad - yes, there was slavery in Canada.
Mandatory Indigenous learning, Ontario
Recent factors impacting Canadian exchange rate
Tariffs, structural change and monetary policy
posted by warriorqueen at 2:33 PM on March 7 [7 favorites]
Underground railroad - yes, there was slavery in Canada.
Mandatory Indigenous learning, Ontario
Recent factors impacting Canadian exchange rate
Tariffs, structural change and monetary policy
posted by warriorqueen at 2:33 PM on March 7 [7 favorites]
One more that may not play in the US - Pierre Trudeau opens door to American draft dodgers in 1969 - interestingly, deserters were not welcome.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:39 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 2:39 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
Thanks for putting this together, warriorqueen! As a proud Canadian I made one comment and then cashed out of that thread because I’m so upset at the betrayal and I didn’t want to read more of it in my safe haven. No need to rehash the thread, sorry.
You are very correct about this site being very US-centric which is totally fair since it’s a US built and maintained site that also has members from all over the world, but we are not guests here and that should be respected. There were plenty of non-Canadians in that thread who completely understood and sympathized but there was also a fair amount that didn’t seem to want to realize that our problem was not their problem, although the two are very very closely related.
So yeah, your 6 points are very valid and can certainly be the basis for many of the international members. I’m going to write them down again without the explanation. I hope you don’t mind, warriorqueen.
Canadians are not Americans
Trump’s threats are quite real here
Yes, you are American
It’s not all about you
The American playground
Totally fine to disagree
posted by ashbury at 2:39 PM on March 7 [12 favorites]
You are very correct about this site being very US-centric which is totally fair since it’s a US built and maintained site that also has members from all over the world, but we are not guests here and that should be respected. There were plenty of non-Canadians in that thread who completely understood and sympathized but there was also a fair amount that didn’t seem to want to realize that our problem was not their problem, although the two are very very closely related.
So yeah, your 6 points are very valid and can certainly be the basis for many of the international members. I’m going to write them down again without the explanation. I hope you don’t mind, warriorqueen.
Canadians are not Americans
Trump’s threats are quite real here
Yes, you are American
It’s not all about you
The American playground
Totally fine to disagree
posted by ashbury at 2:39 PM on March 7 [12 favorites]
I've always been grateful for Canada's presence. It is a gift to have as a neighbor a nation as peaceful and culturally rich as Canada is, and an absolute disgrace that our current administration is making threats against it. I grew up on a lot of Canadian media - YCDTOTV, DeGrassi High, Strange Brew, Rush, Rock & Rule. One of my best friends right here in Philadelphia is from Halifax. I am very, very sorry for what is happening right now and hope that things change for the better as quickly as they can. You, as a country and a people, do not deserve this.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:40 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:40 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
Honestly, thank you for taking the time to share this perspective. I'm going to re-read it again later and keep up with this thread as it develops. Reflecting, I see that I do some of the things that you are talking about. Some redirect to shift thinking and shift focus is valuable to everyone.
posted by fennario at 2:43 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
posted by fennario at 2:43 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
Mod note: As an American and moderator, this post brings up a lot of great points, thank you for making it.
If folks do see an American perspective or comments "taking over" a thread not about America, please flag the post or comments with a note letting us know what's going on
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:07 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
If folks do see an American perspective or comments "taking over" a thread not about America, please flag the post or comments with a note letting us know what's going on
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:07 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
Recently a US acquaintance was making jokes, over several days, about the "51st state" despite my clearly stating that it bothered me as a Canadian. It wasn't until her partner told her to knock it off that she did and apologised, but even then she defended herself, saying, "Look, Trump doesn't mean that stuff, he's just saying it for shock value and to establish a better negotiating position."
I beg of all US citizens, don't think we find Trump funny or take his pronouncements lightly. Please don't make jokes about what might lie ahead for Canada. This is our lives and livelihood and they should not be a subject for jokes.
posted by purplesludge at 8:45 PM on March 7 [24 favorites]
I beg of all US citizens, don't think we find Trump funny or take his pronouncements lightly. Please don't make jokes about what might lie ahead for Canada. This is our lives and livelihood and they should not be a subject for jokes.
posted by purplesludge at 8:45 PM on March 7 [24 favorites]
I flagged 26 derailing US-centric comments in this thread, including some with notes, and there was zero mod response.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 8:50 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 8:50 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
I have a thirty-year connection with Canada via my ex and ex-inlaws—and my two kids, who have one more passport than me. I've been there half a dozen times, which by Australian/British standards isn't bad going; and as a fellow citizen of the Commonwealth, the fraternal ties are strong. So I really feel for Canadians in threads such as that one, and more broadly.
But as polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice points out above, this isn't just an issue in terms of US-Canada relations here on Mefi and in the wider world. This is an issue of US-Europe and US-UK relations and possibly (depending how Australia's next federal election goes) US-Australia relations. There was a palpable sense of Europe and the UK waking up after Trump's and Vance's attack on Zelensky a week ago. People in both are talking about future scenarios that would have seemed the stuff of fantasy a few months ago, let alone a few years ago. Most Western Europeans see Donald Trump as a threat to peace in Europe. It's even dawning on prominent UK right-wingers that their admiration for him was misplaced.
It's becoming increasingly difficult to balance that sense of global threat we non-Americans feel from Trump, and from the American military and economic power that he commands, against our awareness of the plight of his domestic opponents and the ordinary Americans who will be (and in many cases already are) suffering under him. My frame of mind is different even from a month ago. Then, I was focussed on the flurry of damage Trump and Musk were inflicting on the US, as if it was happening in my extended polity of English-speaking/Western democracies. Now, it feels different. It's happening somewhere else, outside the political sphere I live in. I find myself less drawn to long discussions of domestic US developments, terrible though they are, unless they have global implications (e.g. threats to the NSF, CDC, NOAA, NASA). I still feel sorry for (you) ordinary Americans who never wanted Trump, but too many wanted him and still want him. America in my mind now feels more and more like Russia: there are still good people in Russia, I know, but too many Russians are all-in on Putin and Z and waging war on Ukraine. We know Russia ended up that way because of years of repression and disruption and the rise of a strongman, but...
In the lead-up to World War II and during the war itself, most people in Allied countries would have approved of Hitler's opponents in Germany and occupied countries, the White Rose and the would-be assassins and the French Resistance, but they were in no doubt that Germany was the enemy and so, too, in the main, were Germans. If your governments were gearing up for war in the 1930s and you were watching news reels of adoring crowds at Nazi rallies, your first thought wouldn't have been for the good Germans; you would have been focussed on the bad ones, the ones coming for you.
Canadians are fearful for their country. Danes are fearful for Greenland. Russia's nearest neighbours are fearful that they're next in line after Ukraine. The rest of Europe is ramping up its defence spending dramatically because it no longer trusts the US. I could add a qualification, "to come to its aid if NATO Article 5 is invoked", but I don't need to. Europe no longer trusts the US.
Not only has Trump cut off Ukraine from US intelligence and stopped sharing satellite data with it about Russian movements, there are signs that US commercial satellites have been and are being used to aid Russian attacks on Ukraine. How long before Trump takes the next step and shares US military satellite data with Russia?
It isn't realistic to insist that non-Americans caveat our every concern about this new global order with ritual acknowledgements of the good Americans who voted against him.
Worse, I fear our (non-Americans') presence on American-run and -dominated forums such as this is increasingly untenable. Not because of any policy position of the sites themselves, and not because we have any issue with the Americans here—you're good people, on the whole, or we wouldn't be here in the first place—but because the logic of an authoritarian state will grind this site down, and because we non-Americans will become—not through our own choosing—enemy aliens in your virtual midst.
People are already retiring old accounts and signing up under new names to silo their commenting history, and we're seeing account-wiping become normalised, where members who have been here for years or even decades take their entire commenting and posting history with them. If that trend continues, the archives will become a sieve and making sense of historical discussions will become more and more difficult. Over time, people will feel less willing to commit what they actually think about anything political to the site. Self-censorship will ensure that nobody will need to hide USPolitics threads because there won't be any, and non-Americans won't want to post about our own countries' politics here because it will expose us to risk. Forget about getting that visa waiver to visit or transit through the US, forget selling our wares or services to the US—we'll worry instead that our own government will view us as fraternising with the enemy. All nuance will collapse in that situation.
Most non-American Mefites will have melted away long before things get that bad, as we each make our own personal risk assessments. And man, I'll miss this place. I've been here since 2000, and it's informed huge amounts of my life and thinking. So have most of my other online hangouts, because the English-speaking internet is inevitably US-dominated. This untangling is going to be painful.
I find myself wondering how Taiwanese people navigate and view the Chinese internet.
Sorry, I'm rambling. TL;DR: "NotAllAmericans" is the least important aspect of all this as far as non-Americans are concerned, not only Canadians.
posted by rory at 3:00 AM on March 8 [26 favorites]
But as polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice points out above, this isn't just an issue in terms of US-Canada relations here on Mefi and in the wider world. This is an issue of US-Europe and US-UK relations and possibly (depending how Australia's next federal election goes) US-Australia relations. There was a palpable sense of Europe and the UK waking up after Trump's and Vance's attack on Zelensky a week ago. People in both are talking about future scenarios that would have seemed the stuff of fantasy a few months ago, let alone a few years ago. Most Western Europeans see Donald Trump as a threat to peace in Europe. It's even dawning on prominent UK right-wingers that their admiration for him was misplaced.
It's becoming increasingly difficult to balance that sense of global threat we non-Americans feel from Trump, and from the American military and economic power that he commands, against our awareness of the plight of his domestic opponents and the ordinary Americans who will be (and in many cases already are) suffering under him. My frame of mind is different even from a month ago. Then, I was focussed on the flurry of damage Trump and Musk were inflicting on the US, as if it was happening in my extended polity of English-speaking/Western democracies. Now, it feels different. It's happening somewhere else, outside the political sphere I live in. I find myself less drawn to long discussions of domestic US developments, terrible though they are, unless they have global implications (e.g. threats to the NSF, CDC, NOAA, NASA). I still feel sorry for (you) ordinary Americans who never wanted Trump, but too many wanted him and still want him. America in my mind now feels more and more like Russia: there are still good people in Russia, I know, but too many Russians are all-in on Putin and Z and waging war on Ukraine. We know Russia ended up that way because of years of repression and disruption and the rise of a strongman, but...
In the lead-up to World War II and during the war itself, most people in Allied countries would have approved of Hitler's opponents in Germany and occupied countries, the White Rose and the would-be assassins and the French Resistance, but they were in no doubt that Germany was the enemy and so, too, in the main, were Germans. If your governments were gearing up for war in the 1930s and you were watching news reels of adoring crowds at Nazi rallies, your first thought wouldn't have been for the good Germans; you would have been focussed on the bad ones, the ones coming for you.
Canadians are fearful for their country. Danes are fearful for Greenland. Russia's nearest neighbours are fearful that they're next in line after Ukraine. The rest of Europe is ramping up its defence spending dramatically because it no longer trusts the US. I could add a qualification, "to come to its aid if NATO Article 5 is invoked", but I don't need to. Europe no longer trusts the US.
Not only has Trump cut off Ukraine from US intelligence and stopped sharing satellite data with it about Russian movements, there are signs that US commercial satellites have been and are being used to aid Russian attacks on Ukraine. How long before Trump takes the next step and shares US military satellite data with Russia?
It isn't realistic to insist that non-Americans caveat our every concern about this new global order with ritual acknowledgements of the good Americans who voted against him.
Worse, I fear our (non-Americans') presence on American-run and -dominated forums such as this is increasingly untenable. Not because of any policy position of the sites themselves, and not because we have any issue with the Americans here—you're good people, on the whole, or we wouldn't be here in the first place—but because the logic of an authoritarian state will grind this site down, and because we non-Americans will become—not through our own choosing—enemy aliens in your virtual midst.
People are already retiring old accounts and signing up under new names to silo their commenting history, and we're seeing account-wiping become normalised, where members who have been here for years or even decades take their entire commenting and posting history with them. If that trend continues, the archives will become a sieve and making sense of historical discussions will become more and more difficult. Over time, people will feel less willing to commit what they actually think about anything political to the site. Self-censorship will ensure that nobody will need to hide USPolitics threads because there won't be any, and non-Americans won't want to post about our own countries' politics here because it will expose us to risk. Forget about getting that visa waiver to visit or transit through the US, forget selling our wares or services to the US—we'll worry instead that our own government will view us as fraternising with the enemy. All nuance will collapse in that situation.
Most non-American Mefites will have melted away long before things get that bad, as we each make our own personal risk assessments. And man, I'll miss this place. I've been here since 2000, and it's informed huge amounts of my life and thinking. So have most of my other online hangouts, because the English-speaking internet is inevitably US-dominated. This untangling is going to be painful.
I find myself wondering how Taiwanese people navigate and view the Chinese internet.
Sorry, I'm rambling. TL;DR: "NotAllAmericans" is the least important aspect of all this as far as non-Americans are concerned, not only Canadians.
posted by rory at 3:00 AM on March 8 [26 favorites]
I beg of all US citizens, don't think we find Trump funny or take his pronouncements lightly. Please don't make jokes about what might lie ahead for Canada. This is our lives and livelihood and they should not be a subject for jokes.
It's a bracing example of 'punching down' - and I think most people who do it aren't even aware of what they're doing. Trump's 'talk' about 'the 51st State' makes my blood run cold. Not in a fun, temporary way, but in a "Russia is rolling into Ukraine and we _just might_ have to leave (north-eastern Germany)" way.
It is a point of rupture from which there is no return (for me) from people who can repeat that kind of comment. That said, I don't hold the entirety of the US accountable for what DJT does, I maybe even only hold half the people who voted for him accountable. The other half are, I believe, too mis-informed/willfully ignorant to understand the ramifications of he's even joking about.
But people who should know better -
Thank you, Warriorqueen, for making this post. (Of all DJT's outrages this one hits me most profoundly and solidifies in my mind that he is an existential threat (for everyone) and should be regarded and treated as such.)
posted by From Bklyn at 4:13 AM on March 8 [11 favorites]
It's a bracing example of 'punching down' - and I think most people who do it aren't even aware of what they're doing. Trump's 'talk' about 'the 51st State' makes my blood run cold. Not in a fun, temporary way, but in a "Russia is rolling into Ukraine and we _just might_ have to leave (north-eastern Germany)" way.
It is a point of rupture from which there is no return (for me) from people who can repeat that kind of comment. That said, I don't hold the entirety of the US accountable for what DJT does, I maybe even only hold half the people who voted for him accountable. The other half are, I believe, too mis-informed/willfully ignorant to understand the ramifications of he's even joking about.
But people who should know better -
Thank you, Warriorqueen, for making this post. (Of all DJT's outrages this one hits me most profoundly and solidifies in my mind that he is an existential threat (for everyone) and should be regarded and treated as such.)
posted by From Bklyn at 4:13 AM on March 8 [11 favorites]
Yes, I wanted to keep this post to what is actually happening. But in my little planning trauma-laden brain, the thoughts I have at 2 am are that I have 19 and 14 year old sons. What are the chances that they will fight the American military - a service several of my family members have served in; my favourite uncle used to teach me Marine drills - in their lifetime. It’s so weird to have these worries.
Also as I have mentioned, my house and largest asset is sitting at the edge of Lake Ontario. My husband and I have talked about a more rural property for a long time but it’s always been a bit too much of a stretch - do we risk it in the middle of all this? Doesn’t seem smart financially but… And I’d probably end up in an internment camp if history is any indication.
That said, those are fears and not reality at this time. But I’m sure it’s on people’s minds.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:39 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
Also as I have mentioned, my house and largest asset is sitting at the edge of Lake Ontario. My husband and I have talked about a more rural property for a long time but it’s always been a bit too much of a stretch - do we risk it in the middle of all this? Doesn’t seem smart financially but… And I’d probably end up in an internment camp if history is any indication.
That said, those are fears and not reality at this time. But I’m sure it’s on people’s minds.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:39 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
Mod note: I flagged 26 derailing US-centric comments in this thread, including some with notes, and there was zero mod response.
Hey I just went back and reviewed all 32 comments that got a flag (some had multiple) and only one flag (yours) had a note that mentioned a US derail. Oddly enough the post itself got a flag with the flagger suggesting adding the 'uspolitics' flag. We did not.
I suspect that because the post itself mentioned and linked to an article about the US vice-president, in relation to the horrendous meeting between Trump, Vance, and Zelenskyy, people really thought it was ok to bring the US into the comments. So it wasn't a clear cut a case of US MeFites overreaching, just a grey area of how to talk about the EU when the USA is clearly influencing its future direction.
Going forward I'd encourage people to flag with notes about what a problem is and if they don't feel their flags are being noticed, to send an email asking what's going on.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 4:53 AM on March 8 [1 favorite]
Hey I just went back and reviewed all 32 comments that got a flag (some had multiple) and only one flag (yours) had a note that mentioned a US derail. Oddly enough the post itself got a flag with the flagger suggesting adding the 'uspolitics' flag. We did not.
I suspect that because the post itself mentioned and linked to an article about the US vice-president, in relation to the horrendous meeting between Trump, Vance, and Zelenskyy, people really thought it was ok to bring the US into the comments. So it wasn't a clear cut a case of US MeFites overreaching, just a grey area of how to talk about the EU when the USA is clearly influencing its future direction.
Going forward I'd encourage people to flag with notes about what a problem is and if they don't feel their flags are being noticed, to send an email asking what's going on.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 4:53 AM on March 8 [1 favorite]
Doesn't "breaks the guidelines" cover this?
posted by sagc at 6:30 AM on March 8 [1 favorite]
posted by sagc at 6:30 AM on March 8 [1 favorite]
How about let’s not turn this into a mod problem?
posted by ashbury at 7:02 AM on March 8 [16 favorites]
posted by ashbury at 7:02 AM on March 8 [16 favorites]
Doesn't "breaks the guidelines" cover this?
Generally yes, but in this specific instance, a flag with a note early in the thread would have possibly worked, but I doubt the outcome would have been different. There were a lot of people bringing in US specific stuff, only one person flagging comments as a US derail and only a few comments that mentioned a derail. Most commenters were taking it as grey situation and bringing in the USA, probably based on Trump and Vance's antics at the meeting with Zelenskyy.
So, if a general flag is not causing the response a member expects, it's recommend they flag with a note or send an email.
For instances where American viewpoints are being brought in where they shouldn't I recommend flagging comments with a note.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:42 AM on March 8 [1 favorite]
Generally yes, but in this specific instance, a flag with a note early in the thread would have possibly worked, but I doubt the outcome would have been different. There were a lot of people bringing in US specific stuff, only one person flagging comments as a US derail and only a few comments that mentioned a derail. Most commenters were taking it as grey situation and bringing in the USA, probably based on Trump and Vance's antics at the meeting with Zelenskyy.
So, if a general flag is not causing the response a member expects, it's recommend they flag with a note or send an email.
For instances where American viewpoints are being brought in where they shouldn't I recommend flagging comments with a note.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:42 AM on March 8 [1 favorite]
American mefites are so used to freely write and opine whatever they want about the Global South countries the U.S. continues to exploit, invade, and destabilize that they can't deal when a country on their level can actually clap back.
posted by simmering octagon at 9:28 AM on March 8 [10 favorites]
posted by simmering octagon at 9:28 AM on March 8 [10 favorites]
Thank you for this.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:25 AM on March 8 [1 favorite]
posted by Lyn Never at 10:25 AM on March 8 [1 favorite]
This is great I’m learning about how Canadian mefites walk this way, but isn’t it funny that American walk tHiS way. Anyone who is smart enough to be able to distill the entirety of millions of people into a talking point deserves my respect and favorites !
posted by B_Ghost_User at 10:25 AM on March 8
posted by B_Ghost_User at 10:25 AM on March 8
Thank you so much for saying all this, warriorqueen. It's thoughtful and helpful, and does so much to encourage the respect and kindness we all should be showing each other.
I really appreciate it, and all you do to foster community here. Thank you.
posted by kristi at 10:36 AM on March 8 [4 favorites]
I really appreciate it, and all you do to foster community here. Thank you.
posted by kristi at 10:36 AM on March 8 [4 favorites]
B_Ghost_User, what on earth are you responding to?
posted by sagc at 10:37 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
posted by sagc at 10:37 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
I wouldn't want to dissuade American Mefites from contributing to any thread. We're in for a ton of "Trump vs. Target Country of the Week" posts over the sad foreseeable future. Half of that conversation is about America, so American thoughts and opinions are critical, and imo not a derail. In the Tariff thread I was interested to read US perspectives, and gauge how accurately the Canadian mood is being perceived in the US. A thread of only Canadian opinions would have been of much less interest and value to me.
But yeah, the NotAllAmericans reflexive reaction contributes little. I understand it, but I think it was properly called out in the thread. (I do appreciated this post as well.)
To US Mefites, I'd guess I'd say you might need to get used to being casually lumped in with the whole of America, regardless of how you voted or who you support. The rest of the world is currently threatened by, and dealing with, the American State. Which right now equals the Trump/Maga Regime. There's no time or energy to be considering each individual.
You are not guilty of the Trump regime's actions, their words, or their crimes.
You're not guilty of America's actions -- but unfortunately, you end up with a collective responsibility for those actions and their consequences. That responsibility implies the need for action, whether in the form of acknowledgement, resistance, opposition, education, protest, reversal, atonement, whatever.
So the world is not primarily concerned with your innocence right now; rather it is expecting and hoping that you succeed in taking collective responsibility for the mess.
Sorry.*
* As required by Canadian law.
posted by Kabanos at 10:37 AM on March 8 [24 favorites]
But yeah, the NotAllAmericans reflexive reaction contributes little. I understand it, but I think it was properly called out in the thread. (I do appreciated this post as well.)
To US Mefites, I'd guess I'd say you might need to get used to being casually lumped in with the whole of America, regardless of how you voted or who you support. The rest of the world is currently threatened by, and dealing with, the American State. Which right now equals the Trump/Maga Regime. There's no time or energy to be considering each individual.
You are not guilty of the Trump regime's actions, their words, or their crimes.
You're not guilty of America's actions -- but unfortunately, you end up with a collective responsibility for those actions and their consequences. That responsibility implies the need for action, whether in the form of acknowledgement, resistance, opposition, education, protest, reversal, atonement, whatever.
So the world is not primarily concerned with your innocence right now; rather it is expecting and hoping that you succeed in taking collective responsibility for the mess.
Sorry.*
* As required by Canadian law.
posted by Kabanos at 10:37 AM on March 8 [24 favorites]
Twenty-five years ago, Molson ran this very popular ad on Canadian identity. Recently, it was updated.
posted by Violet Blue at 11:37 AM on March 8 [1 favorite]
posted by Violet Blue at 11:37 AM on March 8 [1 favorite]
"As Canadian as possible under the circumstances."
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 12:12 PM on March 8
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 12:12 PM on March 8
psss...Molson is cancelled. But I love the new video. Also the We Will Survive video going around, and the Jim Cuddy song, though both of these imply if the U.S. knocks it off then we're friends again. I don't think the road to reconciliation can be that simple.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:51 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:51 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
As a citizen of a small and remote country, I am very used to being summed up as a whole. And honestly, it is pretty natural to do that when talking about a country's policy and its government's actions. "The Australians play the role of deputy to the Americans in the South Pacific" - we know that individual Australians and Americans are not in fact universally into being post colonial police analogues etc etc. It's shorthand.
It's probably an unfamiliar and unpleasant situation for US residents to be the target of this kind of summarising language (I'm sure there's a technical term in rhetoric or linguistics for it). I don't enjoy it either and am constantly suppressing the urge to rampage in the replies whenever New Zealand comes up (sometimes unsuccessfully as you might have noticed). But for better or worse, you're going to get used to it.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:52 PM on March 8 [12 favorites]
It's probably an unfamiliar and unpleasant situation for US residents to be the target of this kind of summarising language (I'm sure there's a technical term in rhetoric or linguistics for it). I don't enjoy it either and am constantly suppressing the urge to rampage in the replies whenever New Zealand comes up (sometimes unsuccessfully as you might have noticed). But for better or worse, you're going to get used to it.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:52 PM on March 8 [12 favorites]
The morning after the Canadian win at the Four Nations tournament my Facebook feed featured two different AI-generated (or at least helped by AI) images on the same theme: an angry Canada goose sitting on a battered bald eagle on a hockey rink. Before the threats of annexation, I would have called those images unsportsmanlike and unCanadian. But those threats, which warriorqueen and other Canadians in this thread have pointed out, perhaps hyperbolic and mere bombast to Americans, are taken very seriously here as existential threats to our sovereignty and freedom. The ugly nature of those images is a response to those threats.
A podcast of Canadian political commentators I listened to about the same time, was discussing the Canadian reaction to these threats. One of them, Rob Russo, talked about the other Canadian stereotype that Canadians recognize instantly, but is largely unknown to Americans: the guy who pulls his opponent's hockey sweater over his head to land a few gut punches. This other Canadian is as real in our national psyche as the polite, self-effacing guy. (Perhaps Americans who follow hockey are familiar with this other Canadian.) And it is this Canadian stereotype that is resonating with even the most mild-mannered of us.
I was emailing with a friend about Wayne Gretzky's behaviour at the tournament. What makes Gretzky's friendship with Trump even more infuriating to Canadians is that Wayne's father, Walter (who is credited with recognizing and nurturing Wayne's talent), grew up in a family that identified as Ukrainian and spoke Ukrainian fluently. A Canadian comedian, Mark Critch, went on a comic rant about Wayne Gretzky's behaviour at the tournament. The "greatest Gretzky" at the end of that rant is Walter.
Among the media getting recycled are some of Rick Mercer's TV bits "Talking To Americans" (a sample here). No doubt these were edited so that (what I hope was) the vast majority of Americans who were approached just laughed and sent Mercer and the film crew on their way. But in Canada, we generally get a good chuckle over this. The laughter has an edge to it now.
I know NotAllAmericans. But the anger, the booing at national anthems, the refusal to buy American products, and the support of Canadian retaliatory tariffs even as they hurt Canadians ourselves, are not directed at individuals, but to the representatives and supporters of American Manifest Destiny. I'm sorry (of course) that individual Americans are caught in this. But a lot of Canadians feel the American threat personally.
posted by angiep at 1:21 PM on March 8 [6 favorites]
A podcast of Canadian political commentators I listened to about the same time, was discussing the Canadian reaction to these threats. One of them, Rob Russo, talked about the other Canadian stereotype that Canadians recognize instantly, but is largely unknown to Americans: the guy who pulls his opponent's hockey sweater over his head to land a few gut punches. This other Canadian is as real in our national psyche as the polite, self-effacing guy. (Perhaps Americans who follow hockey are familiar with this other Canadian.) And it is this Canadian stereotype that is resonating with even the most mild-mannered of us.
I was emailing with a friend about Wayne Gretzky's behaviour at the tournament. What makes Gretzky's friendship with Trump even more infuriating to Canadians is that Wayne's father, Walter (who is credited with recognizing and nurturing Wayne's talent), grew up in a family that identified as Ukrainian and spoke Ukrainian fluently. A Canadian comedian, Mark Critch, went on a comic rant about Wayne Gretzky's behaviour at the tournament. The "greatest Gretzky" at the end of that rant is Walter.
Among the media getting recycled are some of Rick Mercer's TV bits "Talking To Americans" (a sample here). No doubt these were edited so that (what I hope was) the vast majority of Americans who were approached just laughed and sent Mercer and the film crew on their way. But in Canada, we generally get a good chuckle over this. The laughter has an edge to it now.
I know NotAllAmericans. But the anger, the booing at national anthems, the refusal to buy American products, and the support of Canadian retaliatory tariffs even as they hurt Canadians ourselves, are not directed at individuals, but to the representatives and supporters of American Manifest Destiny. I'm sorry (of course) that individual Americans are caught in this. But a lot of Canadians feel the American threat personally.
posted by angiep at 1:21 PM on March 8 [6 favorites]
You're not guilty of America's actions -- but unfortunately, you end up with a collective responsibility for those actions and their consequences. That responsibility implies the need for action, whether in the form of acknowledgement, resistance, opposition, education, protest, reversal, atonement, whatever.
I don't agree that people bear collective responsibility for the actions of their government, because most people don't have any meaningful control over those actions.
The reason we all have a responsibility to take action is because everyone has a moral obligation to resist fascism.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 1:31 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
I don't agree that people bear collective responsibility for the actions of their government, because most people don't have any meaningful control over those actions.
The reason we all have a responsibility to take action is because everyone has a moral obligation to resist fascism.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 1:31 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
I co-sign this post, thanks warriorqueen.
I'd just like to add one additional point: at a time when Metafilter is in something of fight for survival and badly needs growth, US ethnocentrism could deter substantial portions of that growth from the other countries of the world.
Metafilter really needs to walk the walk of being a true international community before the whole site drowns in its narrow slice of America perspectives.
posted by Rumple at 2:23 PM on March 8 [9 favorites]
I'd just like to add one additional point: at a time when Metafilter is in something of fight for survival and badly needs growth, US ethnocentrism could deter substantial portions of that growth from the other countries of the world.
Metafilter really needs to walk the walk of being a true international community before the whole site drowns in its narrow slice of America perspectives.
posted by Rumple at 2:23 PM on March 8 [9 favorites]
psss...Molson is cancelled. But
First up, that ad annoyed the hell out of me at the time as I generally hate Canadian nationalism. I love my country, sure, but I don't need to shove it in anyone's face ... particularly in the interest of hyping shitty beer.
But in fairness:
A. Molson didn't merge with Coors until a good half-decade after the ad
B. the current bit makes no reference to the shitty beer anyway.
Elbows up, folks.
posted by philip-random at 2:33 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
First up, that ad annoyed the hell out of me at the time as I generally hate Canadian nationalism. I love my country, sure, but I don't need to shove it in anyone's face ... particularly in the interest of hyping shitty beer.
But in fairness:
A. Molson didn't merge with Coors until a good half-decade after the ad
B. the current bit makes no reference to the shitty beer anyway.
Elbows up, folks.
posted by philip-random at 2:33 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
A. Molson didn't merge with Coors until a good half-decade after the ad
I didn't say they were cancelled back then. And the current bit was made with no involvement from Molson.
I liked the ads and the various spin-offs. There were some a few years back with beer fridges placed outdoors in public places on Europe. One fridge gave you a beer if you scanned a Canadian passport. Another gave you a beer if it heard "i am Canadian" in 10 different languages.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 2:42 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
Sorry...I'm not a hockey fan...sorry. So I had never heard the phrase "elbows up" in a hockey context. But the first time I heard it, I thought instead of being a woman in public spaces where so many men do not respect other people's space and how when, say, sitting on public transit next to someone who feels entitled to more than their share of the space, I will have my elbows slightly raised and out, so that any incursion into my space is met with a self-inflicted jab. And that's what it kind of feels like this is like. Someone who thinks they're entitled to more than the share of the space. I feel like there must be a German word for this.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:04 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:04 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
My biggest complaint is that Canada doesn’t give points for ancestry, there’s no ‘right of return’ so my Canadian grandparents don’t give me access. I’m sorry the US president is a corrupt, vicious, addled bully, and I’m confident you’ll outsmart him.
posted by theora55 at 4:39 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 4:39 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
My biggest complaint is that Canada doesn’t give points for ancestry, there’s no ‘right of return’ so my Canadian grandparents don’t give me access. I’m sorry the US president is a corrupt, vicious, addled bully, and I’m confident you’ll outsmart him.
Inexplicably, it's been like nine years and no one seems to have outsmarted him yet. Or maybe he's just out-stupiding everyone so much that it comes around the other side. It makes a guy lose hope after a point.
posted by kbanas at 4:54 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
Inexplicably, it's been like nine years and no one seems to have outsmarted him yet. Or maybe he's just out-stupiding everyone so much that it comes around the other side. It makes a guy lose hope after a point.
posted by kbanas at 4:54 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
I’m glad Canadians and Europeans are taking seriously the threat Trump poses to them.
Thank you for this post.
posted by eirias at 5:28 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
Thank you for this post.
posted by eirias at 5:28 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
This post is so well done. It really articulated so many things I have felt and experienced in my life better than I could have ever put into words. Thanks, warriorqueen!
posted by bkpiano at 7:58 PM on March 8 [4 favorites]
posted by bkpiano at 7:58 PM on March 8 [4 favorites]
These Rick Mercer videos are great!
posted by michaelh at 8:18 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
posted by michaelh at 8:18 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
Someone who thinks they're entitled to more than the share of the space. I feel like there must be a German word for this.
“Arschlochismus”
“Er leidet unter ein akut Arschlochismus”
(Translated roughly as: “He suffers an acute case of Assholery”)
posted by From Bklyn at 4:00 AM on March 9
“Arschlochismus”
“Er leidet unter ein akut Arschlochismus”
(Translated roughly as: “He suffers an acute case of Assholery”)
posted by From Bklyn at 4:00 AM on March 9
“Arschlochismus
That was a joke. Perhaps too subtle. I was thinking "libensraum".
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:52 AM on March 9
That was a joke. Perhaps too subtle. I was thinking "libensraum".
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:52 AM on March 9
Derail but possibly fitting nevertheless. As a native German speaker, i really, really wish people would not do the "there must be a German word for this".
Even after more than a decade here on mefi i still don't get what's supposed to be funny about it. And No, thank you, don't explain it.
End of derail.
posted by 15L06 at 9:46 AM on March 9 [22 favorites]
Even after more than a decade here on mefi i still don't get what's supposed to be funny about it. And No, thank you, don't explain it.
End of derail.
posted by 15L06 at 9:46 AM on March 9 [22 favorites]
Great post, and I also co-sign it!
My biggest complaint is that Canada doesn’t give points for ancestry, there’s no ‘right of return’ so my Canadian grandparents don’t give me access.
theora55: Guide to Canadian Citizenship Through Grandparents.
posted by joannemerriam at 10:18 AM on March 9 [1 favorite]
My biggest complaint is that Canada doesn’t give points for ancestry, there’s no ‘right of return’ so my Canadian grandparents don’t give me access.
theora55: Guide to Canadian Citizenship Through Grandparents.
posted by joannemerriam at 10:18 AM on March 9 [1 favorite]
Canada does not grant citizenship to people with Canadian grandparents whose parents were born outside Canada (this changed in 2009). It's explained pretty clearly on the official website.
posted by ssg at 11:25 AM on March 9 [3 favorites]
posted by ssg at 11:25 AM on March 9 [3 favorites]
Derail but possibly fitting nevertheless. As a native German speaker, i really, really wish people would not do the "there must be a German word for this".
Even after more than a decade here on mefi i still don't get what's supposed to be funny about it. And No, thank you, don't explain it.
End of derail.
I'm sorry. If it helps at all it was kind of a meta joke about the joke itself, since I actually knew the German word. But ok now I know at least one German doesn't like it i will be mindful.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:10 PM on March 9 [4 favorites]
Even after more than a decade here on mefi i still don't get what's supposed to be funny about it. And No, thank you, don't explain it.
End of derail.
I'm sorry. If it helps at all it was kind of a meta joke about the joke itself, since I actually knew the German word. But ok now I know at least one German doesn't like it i will be mindful.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:10 PM on March 9 [4 favorites]
I don't know if the German word thing was prompted by a specific post or not, but I always read this as a refrain familiar to English speakers. English absorbs tons of words from other languages but still lacks the vocabulary to address certain otherwise nameless phenomena (see "That Feeling, You Can Only Say What It Is in French," by Stephen King). It's less a joke about German than it is a joke about the limitations of English (and indeed of language itself).
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:24 PM on March 9 [4 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:24 PM on March 9 [4 favorites]
Thank you for this warriorqueen, it contains so much of my feelings about the Canada-US threads but more precisely and incisively than I could have ever put them. This is a more personal comment than I would normally post but now that I've written it I feel compelled to post.
I have found myself slipping away from the site since the most recent Trump election and even more so since the tariffs threads and found my general mental wellbeing improving as a result. This is a sad state of affairs but there is just a grating tension living in a world where the front page news in my country is American attacks on us day by day and I have to come here and face some of these attitudes. It is tiresome to be commenting to explain my perspective while trying to come up with ways to make the message be heard without provoking defensive responses.
I know that the worst of it is only a small number of people, but those situations need to be managed and shut down where necessary. And for the subtler stuff, it's a matter of personal reflection. If you feel rattled by a sentiment you see expressed by someone from another country and a need to defend yourself, consider just stepping away from the keyboard for a bit rather than reflexively jumping in, regardless of what you intend to say.
Another issue is Americans having unfounded assumptions and making blanket statements concerning aspects of Canadian culture and institutions, and generally displaying some hubris concerning how well they understand what is going on and what is going to happen or not happen to us. These people would not have the same level of confidence in the subject without some of these American cultural attitudes. In my political science and legal education I frequently ran against this paradoxical situation, where American scholars display little interest in comparative study and tend to broadly generalize based on American political institutions and law. This same situation plays out in the Canada/US threads all the time, and is obviously not a moddable issue but greatly frustrates me. The simplest solution is to not read and not respond but that means leaving that part of the site entirely.
I would add that it might do for Americans to reflect upon how much space they choose to take up in given threads, even where said space is dedicated to support. Sometimes it is okay to just listen, as well. If your point has already been made by someone else, then sometimes it is best to let it stand as it is. Part of why this site remains important to me is that I take your support as a given. I don't need to have explained your connections to Canadian relatives and why you like Canada in order to feel that support. Perhaps this impulse comes too from a need to be heard (on the internet, it is hard to feel like you are present when you don't actually say something), and again you can trust that your support has been heard.
This cannot be emphasized enough: "The fact that you have a strong sense that when someone says “Americans” they mean you, personally, at all times, and you and your unique vote and moral perspective is important singularly to be acknowledged, is in fact a product of some aspects of American culture". It is probably very hard to understand what this feels like coming from the Canadian perspective but warriorqueen has done the best job I can imagine doing so.
There is a longstanding and well justified fear in this country of our values and distinctiveness being slowly eliminated by the force of American power, capital, and culture. We are uniquely vulnerable to the US, as had been seen. That vulnerability is painful in these times, and Americans wading in to discussions need to keep in mind that you are talking to people feeling that pain.
I also emphasize what others have said about the implications of the situation for the long term future of the site as an international community. I feel strongly that that ought to be a core value of the site.
Yet I often see people here saying things like "well this is an American community", we cannot have any objection to the volume and nature of US politics posts and discussion in these emergency times.
I know this is a hot button topic but I am running out of patience for treading lightly. I will just say that if we truly mean to be an international community, that may mean constraining the volume, nature, structure, permitted topics and/or moderation approach to US politics posts and discussions, and putting actual effort into it. I am not saying ban something, but rather that we should make some intentional choices about it with a view to the purpose and future of the site. [I absolutely do not want this to be a modding discussion and discourage mods from responding to this, but I will note that I also made several flags with notes in the tariffs thread long before it started to derail, specifically requesting a mod comment to attempt to rerail the post. This eventually happened, but much too late in my view. I also feel that the fact that US politics comments pick up favourites so quickly tacitly discourages modding action on those posts and comments for fear of going against the crowd]
I expect most people who read this to strongly disagree. But, recognize that that the dominance of that opinion is in part attributable to the current status quo having driven people away. We will not be hearing from those people here, and need to think on their behalf if we want to welcome them or others like them.
If, on the other hand, a choice is made to focus on this as an American community, where the dominant decision-making factor in matters is how to make political change happen in the US rather than other community-building goals, then that stance should be clarified and explained, rather than just take hold by default and inaction. Recognizing that the result may be that some long-standing community members feel compelled to distance themselves both for their personal well-being and out of a sense of loyalty to their other communities. However this may deserve its own post, so as not to derail what warriorqueen has said here.
I'm sorry if I have inadvertently offended or been unfair to someone (but also I'm not sorry).
posted by lookoutbelow at 1:40 PM on March 9 [21 favorites]
I have found myself slipping away from the site since the most recent Trump election and even more so since the tariffs threads and found my general mental wellbeing improving as a result. This is a sad state of affairs but there is just a grating tension living in a world where the front page news in my country is American attacks on us day by day and I have to come here and face some of these attitudes. It is tiresome to be commenting to explain my perspective while trying to come up with ways to make the message be heard without provoking defensive responses.
I know that the worst of it is only a small number of people, but those situations need to be managed and shut down where necessary. And for the subtler stuff, it's a matter of personal reflection. If you feel rattled by a sentiment you see expressed by someone from another country and a need to defend yourself, consider just stepping away from the keyboard for a bit rather than reflexively jumping in, regardless of what you intend to say.
Another issue is Americans having unfounded assumptions and making blanket statements concerning aspects of Canadian culture and institutions, and generally displaying some hubris concerning how well they understand what is going on and what is going to happen or not happen to us. These people would not have the same level of confidence in the subject without some of these American cultural attitudes. In my political science and legal education I frequently ran against this paradoxical situation, where American scholars display little interest in comparative study and tend to broadly generalize based on American political institutions and law. This same situation plays out in the Canada/US threads all the time, and is obviously not a moddable issue but greatly frustrates me. The simplest solution is to not read and not respond but that means leaving that part of the site entirely.
I would add that it might do for Americans to reflect upon how much space they choose to take up in given threads, even where said space is dedicated to support. Sometimes it is okay to just listen, as well. If your point has already been made by someone else, then sometimes it is best to let it stand as it is. Part of why this site remains important to me is that I take your support as a given. I don't need to have explained your connections to Canadian relatives and why you like Canada in order to feel that support. Perhaps this impulse comes too from a need to be heard (on the internet, it is hard to feel like you are present when you don't actually say something), and again you can trust that your support has been heard.
This cannot be emphasized enough: "The fact that you have a strong sense that when someone says “Americans” they mean you, personally, at all times, and you and your unique vote and moral perspective is important singularly to be acknowledged, is in fact a product of some aspects of American culture". It is probably very hard to understand what this feels like coming from the Canadian perspective but warriorqueen has done the best job I can imagine doing so.
There is a longstanding and well justified fear in this country of our values and distinctiveness being slowly eliminated by the force of American power, capital, and culture. We are uniquely vulnerable to the US, as had been seen. That vulnerability is painful in these times, and Americans wading in to discussions need to keep in mind that you are talking to people feeling that pain.
I also emphasize what others have said about the implications of the situation for the long term future of the site as an international community. I feel strongly that that ought to be a core value of the site.
Yet I often see people here saying things like "well this is an American community", we cannot have any objection to the volume and nature of US politics posts and discussion in these emergency times.
I know this is a hot button topic but I am running out of patience for treading lightly. I will just say that if we truly mean to be an international community, that may mean constraining the volume, nature, structure, permitted topics and/or moderation approach to US politics posts and discussions, and putting actual effort into it. I am not saying ban something, but rather that we should make some intentional choices about it with a view to the purpose and future of the site. [I absolutely do not want this to be a modding discussion and discourage mods from responding to this, but I will note that I also made several flags with notes in the tariffs thread long before it started to derail, specifically requesting a mod comment to attempt to rerail the post. This eventually happened, but much too late in my view. I also feel that the fact that US politics comments pick up favourites so quickly tacitly discourages modding action on those posts and comments for fear of going against the crowd]
I expect most people who read this to strongly disagree. But, recognize that that the dominance of that opinion is in part attributable to the current status quo having driven people away. We will not be hearing from those people here, and need to think on their behalf if we want to welcome them or others like them.
If, on the other hand, a choice is made to focus on this as an American community, where the dominant decision-making factor in matters is how to make political change happen in the US rather than other community-building goals, then that stance should be clarified and explained, rather than just take hold by default and inaction. Recognizing that the result may be that some long-standing community members feel compelled to distance themselves both for their personal well-being and out of a sense of loyalty to their other communities. However this may deserve its own post, so as not to derail what warriorqueen has said here.
I'm sorry if I have inadvertently offended or been unfair to someone (but also I'm not sorry).
posted by lookoutbelow at 1:40 PM on March 9 [21 favorites]
lookoutbelow, I am definitely one of those people who say, "This is an American site," and you spell out why I say that. Nearly every post about another country gets derailed into something about the US, and it's often hard AF to get those back on track. I like it here but I wouldn't fool myself into thinking this is an international site. We have a lot of amazing international members but on the whole, it is very American-centric. But that's okay! Just give breathing room to other members outside of the US.
posted by Kitteh at 2:22 PM on March 9 [7 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 2:22 PM on March 9 [7 favorites]
I think it's perfectly reasonable for Canadians to tag certain threads "canadaonly" or "CanadavsTrump." It's only natural for Canadians to want to have a place to talk about what's happening in Canada, and maybe even especially to hear from a pan-Canadian collection of voices. The same goes for other countries or regions that want to talk politics that may offend or upset Americans because the problem was started by American leadership.
posted by Violet Blue at 3:17 PM on March 9
posted by Violet Blue at 3:17 PM on March 9
I don't agree that people bear collective responsibility for the actions of their government, because most people don't have any meaningful control over those actions.
Of course they do - at least, anyone who can vote does. The only way any government comes to power is because people vote for them. Trump told America exactly what he stood for and what he would do and more Americans voted for him than for the alternative. Of course the American population has collective responsibility for what is happening.
Anyway, I think the traffic here is something like 80% from the US, so it's hard to say it's not a US-centric place because it clearly is. But that doesn't mean everything has to be about America and it actually wouldn't hurt most Americans to learn there are other countries around the world that aren't just inferior copies of America where people don't speak English*. This attitude is evidence in all the 'world champion' and 'world record' nonsense that gets thrown around by Americans in pretty much every sport. Most of warriorqueen's excellent talking points can be applied to a greater or lesser degree to almost anywhere and I think it would be awesome if Americans generally could keep them in mind a bit more.
*note that even this is not unique to America - I work with and amongst many people from the sub-continent and new arrivals here show very similar behaviour at least for a while
posted by dg at 4:25 PM on March 9 [5 favorites]
Of course they do - at least, anyone who can vote does. The only way any government comes to power is because people vote for them. Trump told America exactly what he stood for and what he would do and more Americans voted for him than for the alternative. Of course the American population has collective responsibility for what is happening.
Anyway, I think the traffic here is something like 80% from the US, so it's hard to say it's not a US-centric place because it clearly is. But that doesn't mean everything has to be about America and it actually wouldn't hurt most Americans to learn there are other countries around the world that aren't just inferior copies of America where people don't speak English*. This attitude is evidence in all the 'world champion' and 'world record' nonsense that gets thrown around by Americans in pretty much every sport. Most of warriorqueen's excellent talking points can be applied to a greater or lesser degree to almost anywhere and I think it would be awesome if Americans generally could keep them in mind a bit more.
*note that even this is not unique to America - I work with and amongst many people from the sub-continent and new arrivals here show very similar behaviour at least for a while
posted by dg at 4:25 PM on March 9 [5 favorites]
I've always felt that if you're allowed to feel proud about your country, its history, its achievements, then you're also entitled to shame at it atrocities and its malfeasance.
posted by signal at 4:31 PM on March 9 [6 favorites]
posted by signal at 4:31 PM on March 9 [6 favorites]
Is there a cure for main character syndrome? I'm not sure there is.
It's not just that American culture inculcates main character syndrome in Americans as individuals, but also that the USA as a country has a pretty vicious case (not helped at all by the fact that they have successfully made themselves the main character in a lot of geopolitical contexts). Trump, of course, is the ne plus ultra of main character syndrome, which is I think a context that makes his election a little more comprehensible.
posted by ssg at 4:47 PM on March 9 [5 favorites]
It's not just that American culture inculcates main character syndrome in Americans as individuals, but also that the USA as a country has a pretty vicious case (not helped at all by the fact that they have successfully made themselves the main character in a lot of geopolitical contexts). Trump, of course, is the ne plus ultra of main character syndrome, which is I think a context that makes his election a little more comprehensible.
posted by ssg at 4:47 PM on March 9 [5 favorites]
I don't agree that people bear collective responsibility for the actions of their government, because most people don't have any meaningful control over those actions.
See, this is exactly where the current Canadian educational system diverges. I will admit I didn't hear as much about this when I was going through it. But due to, among other things, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's work, my kids have learned that all Canadians bear responsibility for the residential school system and its legacy (Action 62). It's not completely uncontroversial, but I think the traction and action that that report has gotten is because Canadians do believe in collective action, collective care (through health care and social supports - many of which suck, and which are under attack at times), and collective responsibility.
I'm finding this hard to articulate but - of course Canadians bear collective responsibility for what Canadian policy is. When Americans disagree I'm always a bit floored. I think that is probably the biggest difference besides the "As Canadian as...possible under the circumstances" thing.
Like...while as a person I might wince at someone saying Canadians pooched the relationship with India, I don't think I would assert in a conversation about India and foreign relations that I shouldn't be counted among Canadians in that. Or for one a bit closer to home, Ontario is a terrible place to be on welfare or disability, and as an Ontarioan although I have certainly never voted for Doug Ford, I would have a hard time disagreeing with the statement "people in Ontario have thrown people with disabilities under the bus" even if I personally certainly don't.
Part of this is because of how things just...work around here. In school, not sure how US school operates on this level, but if one kid misbehaved sometimes we all had to stay in at recess.
Another example: In my board (TDSB), there are specialty high schools that used to take kids based on auditions in music and art, etc. but now it's all by lottery because there was concern that richer parents could just put their kids in music/art lessons and then their kids would dominate and that was seen as inequitable. Not only that, but the lottery is weighted towards 1) Indigenous and 2) equity-seeking groups.
My kids fell on either side of that line and my oldest got into the program he wanted, and my youngest did not. As a Canadian I accepted this and did not go yell at the school, because a) I accept that it is in fact our family's responsibility to be a part of righting the wrongs of how equity-seeking groups haven't had access to things, but also because the school is there to educate everyone, and while my kid is part of everyone, that means sometimes he won't have his every educational goal supported.
Whereas I think the US system is much more comfortable differentiating between the 'deserving' and the 'undeserving' just about everywhere - welfare etc. So there's a drumbeat that Some Group Is Responsible and Some Other Group is Not and...that's not really the vibe here. I mean sometimes it is, but not to the degree it is in the US.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:34 PM on March 9 [18 favorites]
See, this is exactly where the current Canadian educational system diverges. I will admit I didn't hear as much about this when I was going through it. But due to, among other things, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's work, my kids have learned that all Canadians bear responsibility for the residential school system and its legacy (Action 62). It's not completely uncontroversial, but I think the traction and action that that report has gotten is because Canadians do believe in collective action, collective care (through health care and social supports - many of which suck, and which are under attack at times), and collective responsibility.
I'm finding this hard to articulate but - of course Canadians bear collective responsibility for what Canadian policy is. When Americans disagree I'm always a bit floored. I think that is probably the biggest difference besides the "As Canadian as...possible under the circumstances" thing.
Like...while as a person I might wince at someone saying Canadians pooched the relationship with India, I don't think I would assert in a conversation about India and foreign relations that I shouldn't be counted among Canadians in that. Or for one a bit closer to home, Ontario is a terrible place to be on welfare or disability, and as an Ontarioan although I have certainly never voted for Doug Ford, I would have a hard time disagreeing with the statement "people in Ontario have thrown people with disabilities under the bus" even if I personally certainly don't.
Part of this is because of how things just...work around here. In school, not sure how US school operates on this level, but if one kid misbehaved sometimes we all had to stay in at recess.
Another example: In my board (TDSB), there are specialty high schools that used to take kids based on auditions in music and art, etc. but now it's all by lottery because there was concern that richer parents could just put their kids in music/art lessons and then their kids would dominate and that was seen as inequitable. Not only that, but the lottery is weighted towards 1) Indigenous and 2) equity-seeking groups.
My kids fell on either side of that line and my oldest got into the program he wanted, and my youngest did not. As a Canadian I accepted this and did not go yell at the school, because a) I accept that it is in fact our family's responsibility to be a part of righting the wrongs of how equity-seeking groups haven't had access to things, but also because the school is there to educate everyone, and while my kid is part of everyone, that means sometimes he won't have his every educational goal supported.
Whereas I think the US system is much more comfortable differentiating between the 'deserving' and the 'undeserving' just about everywhere - welfare etc. So there's a drumbeat that Some Group Is Responsible and Some Other Group is Not and...that's not really the vibe here. I mean sometimes it is, but not to the degree it is in the US.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:34 PM on March 9 [18 favorites]
Anyone who is Muslim or from a Muslim country (regardless of their actual faith) will tell you that the "collectively responsible for the actions of their country" idea gets complicated quick. It's been over 20 years since 9/11 and we're still paying for it - even countries that had fuck all to do with the event. None of the Patriot Act-era visa restrictions that got put in by the US and copied damn near everywhere got rescinded - if anything, they've gotten worse.
This includes Canada, btw - in one year it went from allowing Malaysians visa-free travel to requiring the most extensive visa application while closing down the Canadian consulate in Malaysia. So if you want a visa you gotta go next door to Singapore. Just last year Australia went from a 2-week ESTA for Malaysians to another month-long extensive visa. Why? Who knows. Peter Dutton isn't even in office yet.
None of this is unique to Trump and to assume otherwise is folly.
posted by creatrixtiara at 7:06 PM on March 9 [19 favorites]
This includes Canada, btw - in one year it went from allowing Malaysians visa-free travel to requiring the most extensive visa application while closing down the Canadian consulate in Malaysia. So if you want a visa you gotta go next door to Singapore. Just last year Australia went from a 2-week ESTA for Malaysians to another month-long extensive visa. Why? Who knows. Peter Dutton isn't even in office yet.
None of this is unique to Trump and to assume otherwise is folly.
posted by creatrixtiara at 7:06 PM on March 9 [19 favorites]
That's definitely a fair point.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:17 PM on March 9 [3 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 7:17 PM on March 9 [3 favorites]
I agree with creatrixtiara that collective responsibility can be fraught and dangerous. But here's the thing: Americans, in aggregate, have benefitted for generations from being an imperial power. We continue to benefit. (Yes, all of us, including those who have emigrated, albeit rather less so. Our American passports, if nothing else, still give us hella privilege.) It is that, not the fact of voting, that makes us collectively responsible for the crimes of the American empire.
The way i think about a person's responsibility for crimes that belong to their ancestors or their rulers is heavily influenced by what Séamas Ó Conghaile said about George V, a hundred years and change ago:
The way i think about a person's responsibility for crimes that belong to their ancestors or their rulers is heavily influenced by what Séamas Ó Conghaile said about George V, a hundred years and change ago:
We will not blame him for the crimes of his ancestors if he relinquishes the royal rights of his ancestors; but as long as he claims their rights, by virtue of descent, then, by virtue of descent, he must shoulder the responsibility for their crimes.posted by adrienneleigh at 8:01 PM on March 9 [25 favorites]
“…[Canada's] oldest and largest independent brewery is offering Canadians a ‘Presidential Pack’ of its lager, calling it ‘just enough to get through the full presidential term.’ More specifically, the Presidential Pack comes complete with 1,461 Canadian Lagers…”
Cruelly, out of stock.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 8:38 AM on March 10 [2 favorites]
Cruelly, out of stock.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 8:38 AM on March 10 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One comment and its responses deleted as requested by the poster.
posted by loup (staff) at 10:27 AM on March 10
posted by loup (staff) at 10:27 AM on March 10
As a sign of solidarity, I will co-sign this. No tangents.
posted by mazola at 10:43 AM on March 10 [1 favorite]
posted by mazola at 10:43 AM on March 10 [1 favorite]
warriorqueen, thank you for this post.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 10:48 AM on March 10 [1 favorite]
posted by Lawn Beaver at 10:48 AM on March 10 [1 favorite]
a couple things about that Moosehead offer linked above by kirkaracha:
- only available in a few provinces
- sold out, as kirkaracha points out
- not sure one beer a day till March 2029 is adequate
- quite the presumption that there will be free and fair elections in 2029!
Moosehead is a decent beer for a hot day after mowing the lawn
posted by ginger.beef at 11:08 AM on March 10 [2 favorites]
- only available in a few provinces
- sold out, as kirkaracha points out
- not sure one beer a day till March 2029 is adequate
- quite the presumption that there will be free and fair elections in 2029!
Moosehead is a decent beer for a hot day after mowing the lawn
posted by ginger.beef at 11:08 AM on March 10 [2 favorites]
I was always partial to Alexander Kieth's IPA when I lived in Quebec for an everyday drinking beer.
Anyway! warriorqueen, BvS post has just been made as I promised!
posted by Kitteh at 11:14 AM on March 10 [1 favorite]
Anyway! warriorqueen, BvS post has just been made as I promised!
posted by Kitteh at 11:14 AM on March 10 [1 favorite]
I bought a made in Canada T3 hat for an upcoming adventure, and decided to retire my Stetson, because of this stupid trade war. The hat has little maple leaves stamped on the buttons. It's a better hat for the purpose. I'm so sorry this is happening.
(Tilley outsourced production to China a few years ago, but they still make a few models in Canada, and the ones made in Canada are still excellent)
posted by surlyben at 11:16 AM on March 10 [1 favorite]
(Tilley outsourced production to China a few years ago, but they still make a few models in Canada, and the ones made in Canada are still excellent)
posted by surlyben at 11:16 AM on March 10 [1 favorite]
big change is comin'
(neil's latest on the moment, which will have to do now that all of The Band is gone.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:03 PM on March 10
(neil's latest on the moment, which will have to do now that all of The Band is gone.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:03 PM on March 10
I thought quite a while whether I should write this or not. I'm probably going to regret posting this tomorrow.
As part of my job, I see a dozen or two people coming in from all over the world every year, and then I interact with them for the next couple of years or so, hang out, give seminars, etc. And I've been doing this for the past two decades or so. As part of my job I'm in a really international situation. I say this as background because of course while I have no unique insight into people from different cultures, nor any actual data, I'm pretty sure my experience is relatively unique in that I assume most people do not meet so many people from so many different cultures from all around the world during their lives.
And I'm going to put this bluntly: with the above in mind, Americans are the most ludicrously narcissistic people I have ever met. And it is, in my experience, systematic. It is cultural.
Of course you can see it here on metafilter too. But here's one thing. As we all know, every single post that is not about Americans gets immediately derailed to be about Americans. But my contention is: this is not actually because most members of this site are Americans. I am absolutely convinced that a site full of Germans, or Norwegians, or whomever, would not derail threads about Americans to be about Latvians instead. It is the absolutely excessive, probably somehow culturally propagated, self-centeredness, the narcissism of Americans that is the broader reason.
Anyway. I've seen this for years now, both online but more importantly in personal experience. Seemed like a kinda-sorta appropriate thread to post this in.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 10:17 AM on March 11 [10 favorites]
As part of my job, I see a dozen or two people coming in from all over the world every year, and then I interact with them for the next couple of years or so, hang out, give seminars, etc. And I've been doing this for the past two decades or so. As part of my job I'm in a really international situation. I say this as background because of course while I have no unique insight into people from different cultures, nor any actual data, I'm pretty sure my experience is relatively unique in that I assume most people do not meet so many people from so many different cultures from all around the world during their lives.
And I'm going to put this bluntly: with the above in mind, Americans are the most ludicrously narcissistic people I have ever met. And it is, in my experience, systematic. It is cultural.
Of course you can see it here on metafilter too. But here's one thing. As we all know, every single post that is not about Americans gets immediately derailed to be about Americans. But my contention is: this is not actually because most members of this site are Americans. I am absolutely convinced that a site full of Germans, or Norwegians, or whomever, would not derail threads about Americans to be about Latvians instead. It is the absolutely excessive, probably somehow culturally propagated, self-centeredness, the narcissism of Americans that is the broader reason.
Anyway. I've seen this for years now, both online but more importantly in personal experience. Seemed like a kinda-sorta appropriate thread to post this in.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 10:17 AM on March 11 [10 favorites]
Americans are the most ludicrously narcissistic people I have ever met. And it is, in my experience, systematic. It is cultural
As a lifelong American: you are not wrong. I can't explain it, but it is absolutely a thing. I try not to propagate it.
posted by pdb at 10:30 AM on March 11 [2 favorites]
As a lifelong American: you are not wrong. I can't explain it, but it is absolutely a thing. I try not to propagate it.
posted by pdb at 10:30 AM on March 11 [2 favorites]
Americans are the most ludicrously narcissistic people I have ever met. And it is, in my experience, systematic. It is cultural
Yep, it's baked into the culture: American exceptionalism.
posted by solotoro at 10:45 AM on March 11 [3 favorites]
Yep, it's baked into the culture: American exceptionalism.
posted by solotoro at 10:45 AM on March 11 [3 favorites]
ludicrously narcissistic
While I largely agree with you (and with this post in general), I hesitate to call it that but I'll concede that in my decades long dealing with Americans regularly for work I've found that there can be an incuriosity & lack of perspective towards situations that aren't American and a consistent perception that being anything other than an unilingual American English speaker is being "fancy" and "arrogant". At its worst it is a complete lack of empathy and steadfast ignorance. And yeah it must at its roots be American exceptionalism as it appears to be a consistently cultural thing as it appears across party / religious / racial / regional lines. I see it all the time on this site and not just in the Canadian political threads.
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:03 AM on March 11 [9 favorites]
While I largely agree with you (and with this post in general), I hesitate to call it that but I'll concede that in my decades long dealing with Americans regularly for work I've found that there can be an incuriosity & lack of perspective towards situations that aren't American and a consistent perception that being anything other than an unilingual American English speaker is being "fancy" and "arrogant". At its worst it is a complete lack of empathy and steadfast ignorance. And yeah it must at its roots be American exceptionalism as it appears to be a consistently cultural thing as it appears across party / religious / racial / regional lines. I see it all the time on this site and not just in the Canadian political threads.
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:03 AM on March 11 [9 favorites]
There's definitely something like a personality clash between Americans and Canadians. Canadians place a high value on not-taking-oneself-too-seriously - so a mixture of humility, generosity, the ability to self-reflect and laugh at oneself, good-naturedness. To me this explains why we adore Canadians like Mike Meyers, Steve Martin and Martin Short, Ryan Reynolds. And why we give the cold shoulder to those who boast and show off (Justin Beiber, Celine Dion up until recently, Wayne Gretsky, Nickelback, Kevin O'Leary). It's hard to articulate, but we just know what behavior is 'Canadian' and what's not. I'm not sure how 'American exceptionalism' gets into people's behavior and personalities, but it's pretty much the opposite of what it means to be a Canadian.
posted by kitcat at 11:14 AM on March 11
posted by kitcat at 11:14 AM on March 11
Steve Martin is from Waco Texas.
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:15 AM on March 11 [7 favorites]
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:15 AM on March 11 [7 favorites]
Solipsistic. Enabled by the omnipresence of American cultural exports. Which Americans do not grasp are no longer wholly American, through that process over decades.
(And much of which originated as a pastiche of other's cultural artifacts, given that American pop culture gained its primacy in the era of mass media and etc.)
Plus the effects of the dollar as the reserve currency and up until recently the US guaranteeing at least enough global security to protect the international trade using it.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:16 AM on March 11 [3 favorites]
(And much of which originated as a pastiche of other's cultural artifacts, given that American pop culture gained its primacy in the era of mass media and etc.)
Plus the effects of the dollar as the reserve currency and up until recently the US guaranteeing at least enough global security to protect the international trade using it.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:16 AM on March 11 [3 favorites]
It's hard to articulate, but we just know what behavior is 'Canadian' and what's not.
A part of the Canadian personality is the Tall Poppy Syndrome. It informs a lot of what we do. That and perhaps our ressentiment towards our neighbour to the south.
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:23 AM on March 11 [4 favorites]
A part of the Canadian personality is the Tall Poppy Syndrome. It informs a lot of what we do. That and perhaps our ressentiment towards our neighbour to the south.
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:23 AM on March 11 [4 favorites]
I think you’re thinking of Leslie Nielsen. :)
posted by warriorqueen at 11:42 AM on March 11 [4 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 11:42 AM on March 11 [4 favorites]
Yep, it's baked into the culture: American exceptionalism.
I tend to love more about Americans than I hate. And here I'm thinking of the music, the fiction, the movies, the sorta no holds barred freedom of expression that, I suppose, comes from a culture that knows it's freer/better than all the rest.
It's not, of course. But they know it anyway and this kind of confidence, when focused on the right things, is beautiful, inspiring even. But when it's not, it's bloody annoying to the point of fucking toxic. As we are currently seeing out there in the real world.
Which perhaps explains the Elbows Up thing. The first time I really noticed it was maybe a decade ago, an acquaintance (a Canadian) who was in the mining game big time, on an international level. Over a few drinks, he mentioned what he felt was a serious failing in many Americans he'd dealt with.
"They take us (Canadians) for granted as nice, polite, agreeable to a fault, and thus just not up to playing in the big leagues. And so they lean into us, push us around, invade our space. And we accede it to them, keep on smiling, nodding along ... until we get them into the corners, against the boards. Then it's elbows up and they don't have a clue what hit them. They're punch drunk concussed on the ice."
Apologies for generalizing but ...
posted by philip-random at 12:24 PM on March 11 [5 favorites]
I tend to love more about Americans than I hate. And here I'm thinking of the music, the fiction, the movies, the sorta no holds barred freedom of expression that, I suppose, comes from a culture that knows it's freer/better than all the rest.
It's not, of course. But they know it anyway and this kind of confidence, when focused on the right things, is beautiful, inspiring even. But when it's not, it's bloody annoying to the point of fucking toxic. As we are currently seeing out there in the real world.
Which perhaps explains the Elbows Up thing. The first time I really noticed it was maybe a decade ago, an acquaintance (a Canadian) who was in the mining game big time, on an international level. Over a few drinks, he mentioned what he felt was a serious failing in many Americans he'd dealt with.
"They take us (Canadians) for granted as nice, polite, agreeable to a fault, and thus just not up to playing in the big leagues. And so they lean into us, push us around, invade our space. And we accede it to them, keep on smiling, nodding along ... until we get them into the corners, against the boards. Then it's elbows up and they don't have a clue what hit them. They're punch drunk concussed on the ice."
Apologies for generalizing but ...
posted by philip-random at 12:24 PM on March 11 [5 favorites]
I don't have huge insight into the personalities of different countries, but as an English speaker I think I do have a fair grasp of the Anglosphere, have visited Canada and UK and US and Australia off and on, etc etc. My experience isn't so much that Americans are "narcissists" but that they treat their own country as normative and everywhere else as a deviation, either an inferior deviation if perceived to be worse, or a cute but irrelevant novelty if it has to be acknowledged as better. When you grow up in a smaller country you know other people don't live like you and in fact most people don't live like you - Americans don't have that consciousness. (I mean many fine and thoughtful Americans DO but as long as we're dealing in wild generalisations, that's my wild generalisation).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:25 PM on March 11 [6 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:25 PM on March 11 [6 favorites]
CTL-F "Canadian": 86. This thread is explicitly for discussing the problems of Americanism. Thanks for the armpit fart.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:34 PM on March 11 [6 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:34 PM on March 11 [6 favorites]
The thread is about American behaviour. Sorry, where's the irony? Oh! Maybe it is in your comment. I get it.
I've noticed Americans may not like being called by the accurate and precise term "USians" but I am willing to make an exception if you don't mind too terribly much.
posted by Rumple at 1:35 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
I've noticed Americans may not like being called by the accurate and precise term "USians" but I am willing to make an exception if you don't mind too terribly much.
posted by Rumple at 1:35 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
Barging in all ignorant. How beautifully typical.
posted by chococat at 1:48 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
posted by chococat at 1:48 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
“Entering the irony zone” is a great username!
posted by ashbury at 2:27 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
posted by ashbury at 2:27 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed at poster's request.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:58 PM on March 11
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:58 PM on March 11
Do we need another meta on this practice of letting people redact their own comments after they turn out to be embarrassing?
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:59 PM on March 11 [7 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:59 PM on March 11 [7 favorites]
The comment about the irony of using the word American in this thread was removed? The irony meter is ascending.
The problem with removing these kinds of comments across the site as a whole is that there is no way for anyone to learn from the process and why the deleted comment was essentially a provocation.
posted by Rumple at 3:00 PM on March 11 [6 favorites]
The problem with removing these kinds of comments across the site as a whole is that there is no way for anyone to learn from the process and why the deleted comment was essentially a provocation.
posted by Rumple at 3:00 PM on March 11 [6 favorites]
Do we need another meta on this practice of letting people redact their own comments after they turn out to be embarrassing?
I mean, probably, it is lowkey one of the most fundamental ways the site moderation is broken. This site has long run on the ethos of each user having a permanent identity as a way of helping ensure civil behaviour and reduce inflammatory episodes. Sock puppets for example are meant for occasional humorous use or for anonymity in AskMe.
Boutique deletions break that social contract at Metafilter.
posted by Rumple at 3:03 PM on March 11 [7 favorites]
I mean, probably, it is lowkey one of the most fundamental ways the site moderation is broken. This site has long run on the ethos of each user having a permanent identity as a way of helping ensure civil behaviour and reduce inflammatory episodes. Sock puppets for example are meant for occasional humorous use or for anonymity in AskMe.
Boutique deletions break that social contract at Metafilter.
posted by Rumple at 3:03 PM on March 11 [7 favorites]
re: American "narcissism" America is a large, populous country. And its culture is frequently at the fore-front and significantly, its home-market is very large and wealthy and largely self-sustaining, which only re-inforces the misapprehension that everything USian is "the best!" For a stretch there most things US _were_ the best. Cleaner, newer, faster, cheaper, smarter (largely while the rest of the developed world was recovering from the hang-over that was the first 45 years of the 20th Cent.) Lately though, say in the last ten, fifteen years, the US has been eating its seed-corn. Without realising it, it has gotten so far out of its own control that DJT, a felonious, (formerly) mobbed-up property developer who managed to bankrupt four casinos before finding salvation playing a billionaire on TV, is running the government. Poorly, maybe even catastrophically.
America: a land of contrasts and it doesn't even know it, not anymore.
posted by From Bklyn at 3:09 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
America: a land of contrasts and it doesn't even know it, not anymore.
posted by From Bklyn at 3:09 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
Good lord I would so much have preferred grumpybear69 to come back to the thread to say mea culpa, all's good, but nope. Again. Yeah maybe we do need another MeTa specifically about this tactic. Because it sure as hell feels like a tactic.
posted by cooker girl at 3:35 PM on March 11 [6 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 3:35 PM on March 11 [6 favorites]
One comment removed at poster's request
Run away! Run away!
posted by chococat at 3:37 PM on March 11
Run away! Run away!
posted by chococat at 3:37 PM on March 11
What guideline did the comment removed break? Where does it say mods will delete any comment I make that I later find embarrassing, a la carte?
posted by sagc at 4:06 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
posted by sagc at 4:06 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
(meta submitted, since this practice seems ripe for abuse.)
posted by sagc at 4:11 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 4:11 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
Mods, please delete every third comment I've made that includes the word "of"; I've reconsidered those particular comments.
posted by sagc at 4:12 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 4:12 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
I too submitted a meta.
posted by ashbury at 4:12 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
posted by ashbury at 4:12 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
Can we not just let some things go?
posted by kitcat at 4:16 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
posted by kitcat at 4:16 PM on March 11 [4 favorites]
Can we not just let some things go?
I don't understand the question?
posted by dg at 5:22 PM on March 11
I don't understand the question?
posted by dg at 5:22 PM on March 11
I'm going to say it... I still find USians silly. I see it nowhere else on the internet. I assume it's based on the idea that "American" must mean in North America because hey look at those words. That's not how language works. The persistence of USians is another one of those "I'm not one of those Americans" things. And somehow thinking saying it is being considerate and inclusive? But the idea of being included in "Americans" as a Canadian is ridiculous so I don't know why people do it. Sorry not sorry.
posted by lookoutbelow at 5:46 PM on March 11 [6 favorites]
posted by lookoutbelow at 5:46 PM on March 11 [6 favorites]
Yanks.
posted by Rhedyn at 5:58 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
posted by Rhedyn at 5:58 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
I don't understand the question?
Is another meta really needed here? Someone made a dumb comment that missed the point of this whole thread. They admitted the comment was dumb and asked for it to be deleted. The mods granted that wish. Another day, a similar thing happened in this thread, with the comment and response also deleted, as the commenter requested. Those were just a dumb comments, not patterns of egregious behavior; feelings would have been smoothed if the commenter had just apologized, but it's not a huge deal in the end. Ultimately, it's not worth fighting and hurt feelings. And most of all, I don't want another thread that will risk more Americans vs. Canadian hard feelings. This thread was great and pretty undramatic and we could just leave it there.
posted by kitcat at 6:03 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
Is another meta really needed here? Someone made a dumb comment that missed the point of this whole thread. They admitted the comment was dumb and asked for it to be deleted. The mods granted that wish. Another day, a similar thing happened in this thread, with the comment and response also deleted, as the commenter requested. Those were just a dumb comments, not patterns of egregious behavior; feelings would have been smoothed if the commenter had just apologized, but it's not a huge deal in the end. Ultimately, it's not worth fighting and hurt feelings. And most of all, I don't want another thread that will risk more Americans vs. Canadian hard feelings. This thread was great and pretty undramatic and we could just leave it there.
posted by kitcat at 6:03 PM on March 11 [2 favorites]
I would have started the MeTa regardless of where the post-then-deletion occured, for the record.
posted by sagc at 6:04 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
posted by sagc at 6:04 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
I don't use "USian" primarily because some people here said they found it offensive, and anyway it is kind of a stupid term and looks stupid when written. USAmerican also.
But there's no denying that it is anomalous to have a single country expropriate as their denonym the name of the continent they share.
This falls into "Africa is not a country" territory. Or imagine if mainland Chinese people insisted they should only be called "Asian." Whiff of Imperialism there.
In any case it is possible to both identify a usage problem prescriptively and also go with the descrisptivist flow, so long as the stakes are low, which they may not be for that much longer.
posted by Rumple at 6:09 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
But there's no denying that it is anomalous to have a single country expropriate as their denonym the name of the continent they share.
This falls into "Africa is not a country" territory. Or imagine if mainland Chinese people insisted they should only be called "Asian." Whiff of Imperialism there.
In any case it is possible to both identify a usage problem prescriptively and also go with the descrisptivist flow, so long as the stakes are low, which they may not be for that much longer.
posted by Rumple at 6:09 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
Why use USian when Gringo is right there?
posted by signal at 6:34 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
posted by signal at 6:34 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
Are Canadians never gringos in Chile? We certainly get lumped in sometimes in other parts of Latin America.
posted by ssg at 6:42 PM on March 11
posted by ssg at 6:42 PM on March 11
Canadians and Europeans can all be gringos.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:45 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:45 PM on March 11 [3 favorites]
You could always say Gringo-Gringo to make it clear you mean somebody from Gringolandia.
posted by signal at 7:16 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
posted by signal at 7:16 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
Brazilian usage of gringo is generic. I'm a New Zealander but eu sou gringo também .
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:14 PM on March 11
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:14 PM on March 11
No one misunderstands who I'm referring to when I say los pinches gringos because I'm Canadian, but it can require some clarification otherwise.
posted by ssg at 8:57 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
posted by ssg at 8:57 PM on March 11 [1 favorite]
I don't understand the question?
Is another meta really needed here? Someone made a dumb comment that missed the point of this whole thread. They admitted the comment was dumb and asked for it to be deleted...
Sorry, that question was my failed attempt at humour.
I don't get the 'USian' reference, but assume it's about the wrongly-deleted comment/s.
posted by dg at 10:05 PM on March 11
Is another meta really needed here? Someone made a dumb comment that missed the point of this whole thread. They admitted the comment was dumb and asked for it to be deleted...
Sorry, that question was my failed attempt at humour.
I don't get the 'USian' reference, but assume it's about the wrongly-deleted comment/s.
posted by dg at 10:05 PM on March 11
US-American is my go to when I feel the need to make that distinction.
posted by philip-random at 10:11 PM on March 11
posted by philip-random at 10:11 PM on March 11
Just don't mention USain Bolt. Someone tried asking the community here not to mention his name and it didn't go so well. /MetafilterHeritageMinute
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:44 PM on March 11
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:44 PM on March 11
Gringolandia
That's,in Ecuador.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:23 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
That's,in Ecuador.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:23 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
OK, but wikidictionary defines Gringolandia as:
Sustantivo propio
1
País conformado por una federación de 50 estados ubicados en América del Norte. Su capital es Washington. El gentilicio es gringo.
Uso: coloquial
Sinónimos: Estados Unidos, el país del Tío Sam, Yanquilandia.
posted by signal at 12:27 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
Sustantivo propio
1
País conformado por una federación de 50 estados ubicados en América del Norte. Su capital es Washington. El gentilicio es gringo.
Uso: coloquial
Sinónimos: Estados Unidos, el país del Tío Sam, Yanquilandia.
posted by signal at 12:27 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
Seriously, folks, at least for anyone in a Commonwealth country "yanks" is a perfectly cromulent word used to denote US Americans; there's no need to overthink it.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:29 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:29 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
FYI, mods, I've been flagging the non-Canadian answers to a very Canadian question and yet there they still are hours later. The OP is specifying Canadian shows, not American shows available in Canada.
If you're gonna ask Canadians to flag that stuff, please follow through, eh?
posted by Kitteh at 2:41 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
If you're gonna ask Canadians to flag that stuff, please follow through, eh?
posted by Kitteh at 2:41 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
sorry this all seems a little fatuous if only because canada is also ... an extremely powerful, wealthy country dominated by a white english-speaking majority, sorry you've been silenced all your lives, eh
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:29 PM on March 12
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:29 PM on March 12
and yes, i know french is widely spoken
it is not the majority language
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:29 PM on March 12
it is not the majority language
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:29 PM on March 12
... perhaps there are currently specific circumstances in re: annexation and tariffs that might make the fact that they're two different countries relevant? Maybe?
posted by sagc at 8:37 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:37 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
because canada is also ... an extremely powerful, wealthy country dominated by a white english-speaking majority, sorry you've been silenced all your lives, eh
what an odd thing to say ...
posted by philip-random at 10:25 PM on March 12 [5 favorites]
what an odd thing to say ...
posted by philip-random at 10:25 PM on March 12 [5 favorites]
Watch as topic of thread conveniently manifests in thread to make the point. And in the most absurd and obvious way. Huh.
posted by lookoutbelow at 11:46 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
posted by lookoutbelow at 11:46 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
Kitteh yeah good point. Action really can't be taken here without mod intervention, which takes some determination and seeing this as a problem the site needs to solve (e.g. misogyny being a problem to solve), meanwhile mods are missing leadership to set priorities like this and act on them, meanwhile priorities are driven by what users want and explicitly MetaTalk is used this way by mods, meanwhile users who are affected leave and aren't heard, meanwhile... Feels tough to pull of a turnaround here in the present circumstances. Similarly to how many Americans may feel sympathy but not much urgency in acting concerning the injustice being done against Canada here, Americans on this site also ought to see this as a problem for them to solve too. If you are an American reading this thread, consider thinking about how we could work on this situation and make your own post with the suggestions - taking action is what solidarity means.
posted by lookoutbelow at 12:00 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
posted by lookoutbelow at 12:00 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
sorry this all seems a little fatuous if only because canada is also ... an extremely powerful, wealthy country dominated by a white english-speaking majority, sorry you've been silenced all your lives, eh
From people like you, yes. After all, you're just a cowardly sock puppet account from a crybaby who closed their account because MeFi is probably too "woke" for you, or whatever.
posted by Kitteh at 3:30 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
From people like you, yes. After all, you're just a cowardly sock puppet account from a crybaby who closed their account because MeFi is probably too "woke" for you, or whatever.
posted by Kitteh at 3:30 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
I don't think that's *quite* where they're coming from, FWIW.
posted by sagc at 3:46 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
posted by sagc at 3:46 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
wait, do we know who knock my sock is? to me it sounded like it could have come from someone from a non-White-dominant country. Not that dissimilar to my comment where i pointed out how Canada also partakes in border discrimination.
posted by creatrixtiara at 4:55 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
posted by creatrixtiara at 4:55 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
sorry this all seems a little fatuous if only because canada is also ... an extremely powerful, wealthy country dominated by a white english-speaking majority, sorry you've been silenced all your lives, eh
For sure Canada is a colonial construct and there's a lot to critique about Canada. This post was not an attempt to shut critique of Canada down; it was to share some things that might make continued discussion on the site go better because American posters might not be aware of the Canadian perspective about them, in light of the new threat to Canadian sovereignty from the US and its desire to take control of our natural resources.
And it's not even to stop talking about them on the site, it's more like, if there's a post from a Canadian perspective please don't use that post to randomly say you want to move here or (as also actually happened) scold Canadians for not protesting on the US streets, if you feel like you need support or don't want to raise the heat of the thread a bit.
But like, engaging with the content of the post - for example if you support US tariffs or want to point out tarrifs on Indian goods or something like that - I mean why not, that is what we're here for.
If you don't sympathize with that, then cool cool.
I encourage people coming from other perspectives to also share pain points (probably in a separate MetaTalk) if they are finding that discussion is being shut down along repetitive or stereotypical lines (which I'm sure it sometimes is), because that's one way we can keep talking here.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:23 AM on March 13 [9 favorites]
For sure Canada is a colonial construct and there's a lot to critique about Canada. This post was not an attempt to shut critique of Canada down; it was to share some things that might make continued discussion on the site go better because American posters might not be aware of the Canadian perspective about them, in light of the new threat to Canadian sovereignty from the US and its desire to take control of our natural resources.
And it's not even to stop talking about them on the site, it's more like, if there's a post from a Canadian perspective please don't use that post to randomly say you want to move here or (as also actually happened) scold Canadians for not protesting on the US streets, if you feel like you need support or don't want to raise the heat of the thread a bit.
But like, engaging with the content of the post - for example if you support US tariffs or want to point out tarrifs on Indian goods or something like that - I mean why not, that is what we're here for.
If you don't sympathize with that, then cool cool.
I encourage people coming from other perspectives to also share pain points (probably in a separate MetaTalk) if they are finding that discussion is being shut down along repetitive or stereotypical lines (which I'm sure it sometimes is), because that's one way we can keep talking here.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:23 AM on March 13 [9 favorites]
American exceptionalism
Yeah...I mean I did not write this post to bash Americans but to try to have better conversations. I have spent a lot of my life translating from Canadian to American and vice versa as a kind of first-gen kid. I always say I find myself very Canadian in US groups and very American in Canadian groups, although I think the longer I've been married to a Canadian** and participated in my kids' education in Canada I've gotten more and more on the Canadian side of things.
Which is nothing like the immigrant experience from non-US countries to Canada but had its own strange eddies of tension and misunderstanding.
Anyways, to address this cultural streak in Americans which is basically a combination of ignorance and boldness with a desire to explain things and also connect personally -- that whole "oh, sorry about the tsunami...my cousin was at [beach 150km away] once and found it lovely and I've always intended to visit" -- I try to take it personally a bit like a educational system issue plus New York Jewish conversational style.*
Where I think that style argument alters is where it meets ideology and of course, power. That's one reason this particular moment is fraught on Canadians' side where normally maybe we just accept the style.
Maybe I'll do a post on the blue on prosperity gospel and its roots in New Thought at some point, because I think that is where manifest destiny has flourished absolutely while also being a massive tool of oppression and suppression of knowledge. And that is really an American construct in its present form.
* Lucky me my family has both, which has been a lifelong learning opportunity for me here. I still have to really sit on myself to not interrupt to show enthusiasm, with failures often along the way.
**Abusing the edit window to add: Up until around university I definitely felt like 'the American kid' but that was also living in an American household and spending a lot of time in the States.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:12 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Yeah...I mean I did not write this post to bash Americans but to try to have better conversations. I have spent a lot of my life translating from Canadian to American and vice versa as a kind of first-gen kid. I always say I find myself very Canadian in US groups and very American in Canadian groups, although I think the longer I've been married to a Canadian** and participated in my kids' education in Canada I've gotten more and more on the Canadian side of things.
Which is nothing like the immigrant experience from non-US countries to Canada but had its own strange eddies of tension and misunderstanding.
Anyways, to address this cultural streak in Americans which is basically a combination of ignorance and boldness with a desire to explain things and also connect personally -- that whole "oh, sorry about the tsunami...my cousin was at [beach 150km away] once and found it lovely and I've always intended to visit" -- I try to take it personally a bit like a educational system issue plus New York Jewish conversational style.*
Where I think that style argument alters is where it meets ideology and of course, power. That's one reason this particular moment is fraught on Canadians' side where normally maybe we just accept the style.
Maybe I'll do a post on the blue on prosperity gospel and its roots in New Thought at some point, because I think that is where manifest destiny has flourished absolutely while also being a massive tool of oppression and suppression of knowledge. And that is really an American construct in its present form.
* Lucky me my family has both, which has been a lifelong learning opportunity for me here. I still have to really sit on myself to not interrupt to show enthusiasm, with failures often along the way.
**Abusing the edit window to add: Up until around university I definitely felt like 'the American kid' but that was also living in an American household and spending a lot of time in the States.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:12 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Just want to gently push back against the idea that there is such a thing as "the Canadian perspective" -- there's only "my perspective as a Canadian." No one speaks for all of us. I only mention it because I've sometimes felt in these discussions that other people are speaking on my behalf, and I feel uneasy about it.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 10:18 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]
posted by Gerald Bostock at 10:18 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]
I am totally shunned and ostracized by other Canadians all the freakin' time so +1 to the above.
posted by mazola at 10:38 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
posted by mazola at 10:38 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
BTDT mazola - sigh.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:49 AM on March 13
posted by warriorqueen at 10:49 AM on March 13
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posted by sagc at 1:21 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]