Where are all the lefties? October 22, 2002 2:57 AM   Subscribe

This comment, made by red cell, is way over the line.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood to Etiquette/Policy at 2:57 AM (122 comments total)

You're a USA-conservative right?

Just thought I'd get that straight.

For what it's worth, I've never seen any olive branch sent out by you, sent out to make for any kind of poignant or clever conversation, you're by the book and you're stuffy steve.

Lighten up to the fact that you're in the tiger cage in a certain sense. Isn't it a little liberal of you to come running to MetaTalk because things aren't fair? I mean war's war right? Hard economic times are hard economic times. Why does democracy translate here, to you, and not onto the bigger picture? Why are you trying to pull our heart strings? We've been pulling yours.
posted by crasspastor at 3:21 AM on October 22, 2002


Yes, it wasn't the most polite thing to say.
But have you checked out the "lupus" comment? How about that?
Sometimes, this is not a very polite place. You probably dig that since you joined MeFi to be, um, "devil's advocate"

I don't agree with red cell, his heavy-handed sarcasm was kind of shrill -- even though the conservatives' bitching about being an oppressed minority in the US is really kind of lame, especially because they control the White House, the Supreme Court, the House and in a couple weeks they could even take the Senate.

Anyway, Steve, I hope that in the future you'll also drag to MetaTalk some of your right-wing buddies, when they become unruly

posted by matteo at 3:25 AM on October 22, 2002


Lighten up to the fact that you're in the tiger cage in a certain sense.

Jeee golly, I guess I shouldn't be offened by some one calling people (myself included) Jew-hating, fag-bashing, niger-killers, right?



posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 3:25 AM on October 22, 2002


I hope that in the future you'll also drag to MetaTalk some of your right-wing buddies, when they become unruly

Don't worry, when they start making racial slurs, I'll be the first to call them out, till then...
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 3:27 AM on October 22, 2002


No it wasn't.

Your way too straight laced pal.
posted by johnnyboy at 3:28 AM on October 22, 2002


Politics is a pandoras' box, you open at your own peril.
posted by johnnyboy at 3:30 AM on October 22, 2002


I can't belive either of you two. This has nothing to do with me being to "straight laced" or this being "not a very polite place"...

I do belive that there are some things, said with out reason, that are not acceptable by a community... racial slurs being in that group.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 3:39 AM on October 22, 2002


"Fuck you for being so condescending. For all the rebel rousing of the '60s, some one had to support going to Vietnam... You liberal jackass."

- Touche.

Come on steve the way I see it if you play with fire and get burnt then don't come into metatalk complaining about it.
posted by johnnyboy at 3:51 AM on October 22, 2002


Well, I'm on crack at the moment. Nevertheless, I'm going to kill my sweeeeeet high and reply.

The "racial slurs" I'm sure were meant as nothing to you, but that your staunch conservatism is exactly that in many's eyes. It's up to you steve_at_linwood to change the tides, to outreach, to see to it that liberals no longer think of conservatives as Jew-hating, fag-bashing, niger-killers, right? Change the tone steve. You hold the key. Run like the wind, brave majority.
posted by crasspastor at 3:55 AM on October 22, 2002


First:

red cell didn't really use the n word. He just wrote the "n".
You're the one who wrote it (and you also got the spelling wrong). red cell used it of course in a sarcastic manner, i.e., "that's the language you guys use, face it".
red cell was shrill and too aggressive, but calm down Steve (you're also very aggressive, wanna check your past comments?)

Second:

You're suddendly _so_ sensitive. You weren't, until five minutes ago. I'm glad we have a kinder, gentler Steve here on MeFi

posted by matteo at 4:11 AM on October 22, 2002


red cell forgot 'oil-thieving, mammary-fearing, media-lying constitution-killers'.
posted by quonsar at 4:16 AM on October 22, 2002


excuse my misspelling of the word, I can't think of a time before this when I have had to use it.

red cell didn't really use the n word. He just wrote the "n".

red cell wrote: "n------killing-strategies"

So I guess when someone writes "sh*t" they don't really don't mean "shit"... by your logic...

That is a pretty broad definition of "aggressive" if you ask me...

But hey, if calling people these things is fine with every one here, and it offends no one, then fine.


posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 4:22 AM on October 22, 2002


I pointed a friend of mine to MetaFilter a few days ago. She read a few threads and comments and said, "Interesting links, but those comments....geez, is everyone there 12 years old or something?" I thought about it for a moment and replied, "Yes. Yes, we are."

Somewhat of an overstatement, of course, but if you objectively look at the level of discourse here, especially in regards to matters political and religious, it's routinely childish, shrill, and bordering on the hysterical. I'm becoming quite disgusted with myself both for reading it, and in some cases, participating in it.

I definitely need a vacation from this place.


posted by MrBaliHai at 4:35 AM on October 22, 2002


Wow. Steve's gadfly position gets on my nerves, but do people really want to go to bat for Red Cell's comment because of that? In my opinion it was far too flamey for Metafilter, regardless of sarcastic intent.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 4:39 AM on October 22, 2002


I can see how red cell's comments could be seen as objectionable. I, on the other hand, took them for ironic, the mirror image of many of the charges levelled at "lefties" by warbloggers and right-wing fulminators. But it wasn't clear from the context, and my interpretation is by no means more correct than Steve's.

I do think that Steve's past history at this place makes it difficult for him to generate much sympathy; he's stepped on a lot of toes around here in the name of ideology. ("You liberal jackass" -- as though there was a direct correlation between being a liberal and being a jackass.) It's as though he's complaining about a punch below the belt, while all this time he's been delivering body blows -- and the rest of us don't even think we're at a boxing match. Some may think that Steve being offended in turn is simply poetic justice. Steve may find that if he is more considerate of the feelings of others -- even liberal jackasses -- he may find that others on this site may reciprocate.
posted by mcwetboy at 4:53 AM on October 22, 2002


Wait a second. Why is a comment that does not address the topic at hand but instead seeks to belittle the person ever acceptable? What am I missing here? You don't like S_a_L so you'll let anything slide-- ironic comment or no, that sucks.
posted by yerfatma at 4:59 AM on October 22, 2002


Steve may find that if he is more considerate of the feelings of others -- even liberal jackasses -- he may find that others on this site may reciprocate.

It worries me a bit that continuous escalation is one of the alternative to this. I don't think I'd keep reading Metafilter if it became the place where FreeRepublic and Democratic Underground meet.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 5:02 AM on October 22, 2002


I must apologise.


I was just being devils' advocate.
posted by johnnyboy at 5:05 AM on October 22, 2002


mcwetboy: Calling someone a _blank_ jackass does not directly correlate that all in that group are jackasses, just that the one the speaker is referring to, is. You may find me crass, but that does not mean that all poeople who are like minded as I am, are also crass...
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 5:07 AM on October 22, 2002


Steve: Red Cell's comment was out of line, but your use of MetaTalk to deal with it is pretty convenient.

You need to pick sides. You're either an abrasive troll who says things like "are you on crack? ... fuck you ... you liberal jackass" or you're someone who comes running to MetaTalk when one person says something over the line about a group to which you belong.


posted by rcade at 5:09 AM on October 22, 2002


"are you on crack? ... fuck you ... you liberal jackass" are special terms of endearment, saved for individuals that find it necessary to rail me at every occasion. I made a post to the thread giving my experience with the topic at hand. Crasspastor then took the time to attack me.

But that is besides the point.

The question put before the community is:

"Do we find it acceptable to post a comment that seeks to belittle a person using racial slurs, sarcastic, or not?"
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 5:21 AM on October 22, 2002


So, to straighten this out in my mind, is the question 'Can we say 'nigger' on MetaFilter?'
posted by robself at 5:27 AM on October 22, 2002


I've voted straight Democrat since the Van Buren administration, but I have to say on this one I agree with @Linn. That kind of discourse is always offensive, and always a legit topic for Metatalk. Crasspastor, matteo, rcade et al. -- it's OK to shit on those who have behaved badly in the past? Only the pure may seek relief? Come on.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 5:27 AM on October 22, 2002


it did not seek to belittle. it sought to sting. it appears to have been successful.
posted by quonsar at 5:29 AM on October 22, 2002


This horse's ass has pretty thin skin.
posted by websavvy at 5:45 AM on October 22, 2002


So, to straighten this out in my mind, is the question 'Can we say 'nigger' on MetaFilter?'
posted by robself at 5:27 AM PST on October 22


I think it's more "can we paint someone as being the kind of person who calls people 'nigger' on Metafilter?"
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 5:52 AM on October 22, 2002


Seemed to me like everyone in that thread was giving as good as he/she got and all are equally guilty of acting badly. Changing your user profile when someone calls you on the content doesn't help your cause though, Steve_at_Linnwood.
posted by dg at 5:56 AM on October 22, 2002


You know, I've watched you shit all over pretty much every thread you've commented in, Steve_at_Linwood. I haven't called you out on it because that's not my thing (if you will look at my profile, I have never posted anything but comments to MeTa). I may not post or comment much, but I do read MeFi pretty much daily, and this seems to me to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

And I have to agree that changing your profile when you get called on it is lame in the extreme.
posted by eilatan at 6:05 AM on October 22, 2002


Would you like me to change it back? I did not know that I had to keep it static.
I find it hardly relevant to the discussion at hand, but if you find it necessary, I will.
This is not about me, as much as you would like it to be. Further more, I belive that most people here, know where I stand.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 6:05 AM on October 22, 2002


You showed where you stand by changing your profile after someone linked to it. It is very relevant to the discussion at hand, as you are well aware.
posted by dg at 6:25 AM on October 22, 2002


Again, This is NOT about me...

This is about red cell's comment
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 6:28 AM on October 22, 2002


calling someone a nigger hater is not the same as calling someone a nigger. it's not a "racial slur", at least not how i understand the term (unlike, say, calling someone a "whitey nigger hater").

on the other hand, the standard of "debate" here is appallingly low. it's been that way for so long that i'm starting to wonder if it ever really was any better. people throwing abuse around is just the noise that comes from people not thinking. there's very little new or interesting here. little that's original, clearly thought and clearly expressed.

i'm just back from a holiday. today or tomorrow i'll get started on something for filtering this place based on username. though i'm starting to wonder whether there'll be anything left to read when i'm through.
posted by andrew cooke at 6:30 AM on October 22, 2002


Mr Miller. Here's the deal - It's you. Red cell may or may not have been over the line. I *tend* to think he was, but not really a big deal. He was making a point badly.

But it's you. Really.

You are inflammatory and you bring out the worst in people. Please look to yourself before hauling people into Metatalk for being inflammatory and bringing out the worst.

As one pompous ass to another - It's you. Time to deal.
posted by y6y6y6 at 6:31 AM on October 22, 2002


At the moment I am vastly relieved I skipped the thread in question.
And to answer the burning question, I feel it is NEVER correct to say the "N" word here or anywhere else. It is, and will probably be in the forseeable future, way too inflammatory a word.

posted by konolia at 6:36 AM on October 22, 2002


There is an article over at Kuro5shin that seems kind of relevant here. It certainly sums up my feelings about the comments here at times, and individuals that seem unable to comprehend even the possibilty that they may be wrong on a subject. "You're wrong, no you're wrong" is so depressing when people are just saying it to avoid having to back down. Unfortunatley though, Metafilter really is more addicitive than crack so I can't leave.
posted by chill at 6:37 AM on October 22, 2002


Not that I've ever used crack, I hasten to add.
posted by chill at 6:38 AM on October 22, 2002


Although looking at my spelling in the post above you could be forgiven for wondering.
Spell check is my friend
posted by chill at 6:41 AM on October 22, 2002


Changing your user profile when someone calls you on the content doesn't help your cause though, Steve_at_Linnwood.

You did!
Jesus, Steve, we really scare you, do we?
Why did you change it? Do you cave in, under communist pressure?


posted by matteo at 7:07 AM on October 22, 2002


Dudes.
I didn't read that thread when it was posted because I thought, 'liberals at university? who knew?'.
I just read through it now.
Holy crap, what crap.
I was in a food fight once, in a University cafeteria. We were throwing syrupy pancakes at a visiting DJ. This annoying girl I was with whacked him in the head with a sausage. Later, she got jello splattered all over her nice white shirt. She complained about that for days. She was really indignant.
posted by Fabulon7 at 7:07 AM on October 22, 2002


["Do we find it acceptable to post a comment that seeks to belittle a person using racial slurs, sarcastic, or not?"]

Depends on whether the person is viewed as conservative or not. If you haven't figure that out yet Steve, you might be beyond help.
posted by revbrian at 7:24 AM on October 22, 2002


A lot of people seem to be saying that Steve is reaping what he sowed. Has he ever said anything as offensive as Red Cell's comment to anyone here? I agree that his tone can sometimes be grating and overly aggressive, but I don't recall him ever stepping that far out of bounds. Unless you've skin made of rice paper, being called a 'liberal jackass' should be quite easy to shrug off, unlike, say, being called a bigot.
posted by picea at 7:30 AM on October 22, 2002


I checked the global meter. It measures 'asshole' as being twice as offensive as 'jackass', which is in turn a little worse than 'idiot', but not nearly so bad as 'slutty crack addict', although that is easier to put up with than 'fuckwit' or 'waste-of-skin'. 'Bigot' is worse than 'liberal jackass', but only barely.
posted by Fabulon7 at 7:41 AM on October 22, 2002


I guess I shouldn't be offened by some one calling people (myself included) Jew-hating, fag-bashing, niger-killers

I guess that would depend on if the statement has any truth to it. From the comments others have posted, your reputation (deserved or otherwise) has preceded you.

posted by mischief at 7:46 AM on October 22, 2002


Metafilter: Everyone here is 12 years old or something.
posted by gottabefunky at 7:49 AM on October 22, 2002


I want the five minutes of my life back I wasted on this thread!
posted by The God Complex at 7:50 AM on October 22, 2002


Apparently, this is some sort of thinly-veiled geography lesson.
posted by websavvy at 7:57 AM on October 22, 2002


You haven't been breaking into crasspastor's stash, have you, chill?

*sigh* I now remember why I skip almost all the politics-related discussions here. Because they're not discussions. They're petty, childish arguments. I agree with y6y6y6: red cell could have chosen his sarcasm and made his point better, but he wasn't just throwing around racial slurs.

And, Steve: you're right, this shouldn't have been about you, but you haven't given us much other choice with your behavior.
posted by UnReality at 8:01 AM on October 22, 2002


Fact is Steve, you're complaining about exactly the same kind of shrill rhetoric you're too fond of yourself. Maybe not the exact words, but certainly the same tone and the same intent to affront or shock. Live by the flame, die by the flame. Personally, I'd be delighted if more articulate conservatives joined metafilter. If they chose front page posts on conservative issues from something other than the obvious daily trolls at Frontpage or Townhall, or from some think tank press release, they might even persuade me once in a while. And if they tried to argue their case without name-calling, victim-mongering, bait-and-switch, or other cheap rhetorical shots, I'd do my best to discuss the topic in the same way.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:02 AM on October 22, 2002


"You liberal jackass" -- as though there was a direct correlation between being a liberal and being a jackass

Ahem.
posted by me3dia at 8:32 AM on October 22, 2002


I really think that steve's politics are clouding people's reaction to redcell's comments.

but then I remembered that there is no liberal bias at metafilter, people with right-leaning views are never run out on a rail around here.
posted by Mick at 8:42 AM on October 22, 2002


picea:

A lot of people seem to be saying that Steve is reaping what he sowed. Has he ever said anything as offensive as Red Cell's comment to anyone here? I agree that his tone can sometimes be grating and overly aggressive, but I don't recall him ever stepping that far out of bounds.

steve hasn't stepped out of bounds to the extent that red cell has. i think you're right on that point. i think people are mostly anxious when they see steve; anxious like they were with bunnyfire, and steven den beste, and evanizer. not because those were bad people: they were not. but because steve, like they were, is in too deep; he participates to such a great extent that he cannot maintain his velocity. shall he fade into the crowd, as miguel cardoso has, or fade from the site entirely as have the others (save in our memories)?

Mick:

but then I remembered that there is no liberal bias at metafilter, people with right-leaning views are never run out on a rail around here.

if you are going to complain about liberal bias, you should at least be honest about it: don't forget to mention holgate and rodii, two posters with liberal leanings that have also left the site.
posted by moz at 8:48 AM on October 22, 2002


It's all wrong.
posted by walrus at 8:48 AM on October 22, 2002


red cell's comment was offensive and childish. So are the remarks attributed to Steve_at_Linwood. Neither excuses the other; I'm appalled that so many here seem to think it does.
posted by timeistight at 8:58 AM on October 22, 2002


I agree that red cell's incoherent post (who's the "your" rc refers to?) was over the line. I also don't see Steve_at_Linnwood as a particularly annoying troll; his first comment in that thread is thoughtful and smart (minus the "anti-American" thing, of course - guess you can't resist sometimes, eh, Steve?).

Again, This is NOT about me...
This is about red cell's comment


Uh, you just made it about you. Erasing your own history, Mr. "devil's advocate?" How Stalinist is that, Steve_at_Linnwood? Why the need to erase the truth, if you didn't feel that your own self-definition had an impact on the discussion?
posted by mediareport at 9:12 AM on October 22, 2002


No matter what you all think of each other, at least you're all here talking about it. You know who isn't? Red cell. That's the main difference. It isn't obvious to me that s/he even knows that Metatalk exists. No matter what YOU all are saying to each other, you're a community. Red cell's just a troll.

C'mon now: group hug.
posted by coelecanth at 9:15 AM on October 22, 2002


me3dia wins my vote for "best sidebar smackdown".

That is all.
posted by grum@work at 9:20 AM on October 22, 2002


steve, i think the gist of what the folks are saying is 'practice what you preach'. no harm in changing ones tone, shows growth and all that.
posted by clavdivs at 9:29 AM on October 22, 2002


grum@work

do you mean that Andrew Jackson was a liberal?

posted by matteo at 9:57 AM on October 22, 2002


my main beef with steve isn't his overstuffed conservatism per se. it's his mechanical reliance upon poorly reasoned arguments, his generally inarticulate dialectics, and his pious hypocrisy, as evinced by the existence of this thread.
posted by donkeyschlong at 10:22 AM on October 22, 2002


Steve_at_Linnwood

inpHilltr8r
posted by inpHilltr8r at 10:32 AM on October 22, 2002


red cell was over the line, yes, and I'm not convinced anything Steve said brought it on. It was ugly and unnecessary.

Steve also crossed a line in the thread (though not nearly as bad), saying the phrase "fuck you" to another member is about the ugliest thing you can possibly do here, it makes the place look like the worst of usenet and makes intelligent dicussion or debate impossible

Then again, I think crasspastor was posting some borderline incoherent freakouts that had little to do with the topic in the original post, and instead were meant to poke a stick at another member.

There are maybe a dozen comments worth reading in that entire thread, that make people seem civil and intelligent and reflect on the site favorably, the rest, not so much.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:37 AM on October 22, 2002


inpHilltr8r: You made my day. Hats off.
posted by Dark Messiah at 10:41 AM on October 22, 2002


[Since Mathowie has passed judgement, I will now derail the thread]

Ooo! I'm a yuk yuk! And also at times, a Profundus Maximus.
posted by Stan Chin at 11:28 AM on October 22, 2002


Can we institute a little check box on a thread that, when clicked, sends an animated gif of a giant axe to Matt's e-mail? I envision it having accompanying sound, something to the effect of "Axe it, man" with the Triumph The Insult Comic Dog voice.

And can we get the 'blink' tag working so we can make our important points flash with intellectual anger?

Oh, you mean we don't want to institute a million features for every possible situation? Fuuuuuuuuck me! (is that as bad as fuck you?)
posted by The God Complex at 11:43 AM on October 22, 2002


These are my favourite people.
posted by Fabulon7 at 11:44 AM on October 22, 2002


God Complex, I think I can predict Matt's response to that... an instant e-mail "delete this please" button would be used roughly 700 times for every post made on this site by different people.

And as for the blinking text- no. Just don't. It makes the Baby Jesus cry.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 12:15 PM on October 22, 2002


Left. Right. Narrow Identities. Make like Fonda and stttreeetch.
posted by jacknose at 12:15 PM on October 22, 2002


These are my favourite people.
oh, i dunno, fabulon7. looks pretty dull to me, i think you can do better.

posted by quonsar at 12:29 PM on October 22, 2002


From July 20, 2001:

"I've always believed, or tried to believe, in the idea that the community can act as a civilizing agent. I've seen it work wonders--flamers come in, make a big splash, cause lots of resentment and MeTa threads, and then a couple weeks/months later I notice they're the most restrained, collegial and friendly of posters. [...] Some magic change in tone happens, that I think comes in part from coming to see the other people here as people and not just names on a screen.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it takes longer. I guess my question is, how can I as J. Random User facilitate the transition from flamer/asshole to solid citizen. Or are the flamers just coming too fast to stop it anymore?"
posted by RJ Reynolds at 12:29 PM on October 22, 2002


I am a conservative Liberatarian (since we're all defining ourselves politically). Feel free to say "fuck you" and call me a "conservative jackass", because I probably deserve these harmless and vague insults sometimes, but please don't imply that I'm ever "Jew-hating, fag-bashing", or that I have "n-----r-killing strategies" in my head at any time. EVER.

Red Cell was wrong, and those who are defending his statement on the basis that he was provoked by a "fuck you" or "liberal jackass", are also treading a fine line. Let's be reasonable here.


posted by BirdD0g at 1:16 PM on October 22, 2002


Thanks, RJ; rodii's point was perfect. While I disagree with him at nearly every turn, my experience of Steve here is that he was enjoying the process, like a lot of us have.

Oh god, now I really feel like I'm back on Usenet. Whoever reminded me of the Flame Warriors site, I hate you forever.
posted by mediareport at 1:32 PM on October 22, 2002


Actually, Steve reminds me a lot more of this guy -- he doesn't participate in discussion as much as he tries to derail it with trivial attacks on minor details of posts he disagrees with. At this stage of the game, Steve reminds me a lot of late-era aaron; he's a guy who could have some thoughtful, incisive discussion in him, but tosses it aside for the satisfaction of the ad hominem attack.
posted by dogmatic at 1:48 PM on October 22, 2002


I wonder why the "Jerk" looks sort of like David Bowie?
posted by boomchicka at 2:47 PM on October 22, 2002


I thought Red cell's comment was incredibly obnoxious. Offensive remarks don't become acceptable because of who they're addressed to. Steve, your comments are also frequently obnoxious and personal. I get the feeling that's because you're on the defensive, but it's a cyclical thing--if you get a reputation for presenting civil, well-reasoned arguments, most people will respect you, conservative or not. Yes, there are a juvenile few who will simply refuse to respect a conservative on "principle"--but are they really worth worrying about?
posted by hippugeek at 3:06 PM on October 22, 2002


Live by the flame, die by the flame.

Never a truer word was spoken. This is not a matter of degrees - Steve_at_Linnwood started with the insults and he was responded to in kind. Red cell certainly responded out of proportion to the situation, but the fact remains that the whole discussion was a flame-fest anyway. Anyone hurling the insults has some responsibility for the discussion and, therefore, cannot justify getting all self-righteous when the insults push their personal buttons.

In the end, Steve_at_Linnwood self-incriminated himself by changing his user page when he was called on it. Just my opinion, of course.
posted by dg at 3:31 PM on October 22, 2002


You must be reading a different thread than I am, dg. Unless Matt has deleted some comments I didn't see, S_at_L made his nasty comments here thirty-two minutes after red cell's rant.
posted by timeistight at 3:48 PM on October 22, 2002


Steve-at-Linnwood = BlueTrain.

*yawn*
posted by rushmc at 4:12 PM on October 22, 2002


timeistight: no comments are deleted from the thread. I did not say any thing "provocative" until after both crasspastor & red cell when on the offence.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 4:16 PM on October 22, 2002


timeistight, I followed the link above and, therefore, read the thread out of order (no excuse for my getting facts wrong though). Steve_at_Linnwood's comment was also made after he started this MeTa thread.

Actually, the thread seemed to settle down after a while and the tone improved somewhat, so perhaps this MeTa thread acted as a pressure valve.

The above does not change my opinion, though - if you are going to complain about other peoples' insulting behaviour, don't act the same way yourself and then expect sympathy.

[Note to self - don't break personal policy of ignoring threads dealing with US politics again.]
posted by dg at 4:31 PM on October 22, 2002


I was going to comment in the thread (with something that pertained to the link) but that would have been a big waste of time. Anyway you two make whatever you claim to stand for look really bad.

Believe it or not a place like MeFi can influence young people, such as myself, who are not exactly sure where they want to stand in the politcal spectrum. For the most part the openminded liberals who really arent so openminded and act so damn superior really turn thier cause off to me. They are often backed by the less trollish liberals and it is almost totally acceptable behavior. A conservative such as steve can have the same negative effect only he doesnt get much backing, not only because he is an ass but also because of the lack of conservatives.

I find myself more on the conservative side but I am partially grateful that such a large majority here leans to the left, even if only for the sake of less conflict.
posted by Recockulous at 4:34 PM on October 22, 2002


He's my favorite MeFite of all!
posted by perplexed at 5:03 PM on October 22, 2002


Steve -- or others? -- could you please tell me what your user page said before it was changed?
posted by kevin-o at 6:01 PM on October 22, 2002


Stan Chin, you are much too hard on yourself! I myself see you as either a charming Bong or perhaps an endearing Garble ;-)
It's amazing how so many of these warriors fit MeFi members, myself included. However, I'm at a loss to find our resident Kung-Fu Master. I'm also kinda hoping to weed out a few Imposters, but I'm guessing that's gonna take some time. Good thing all's I got is time on my hands, since Wally World is still closed and all.
posted by Zulujines at 6:19 PM on October 22, 2002


Okey-dokey... I'm real late to this thread and admit to not reading all of it (my brain would pop). But what I'm getting is that somehow calling someone a "Jew-hating, fag-bashing, nigger hater," is acceptable if it's said to someone you disagree with.

That, simply put, is crap.

Red_cell was clearly out of line, and I'm sorry, but that string of words is damn close to hate speech. Granted, that's only my definition and if it's acceptable to Matt and the community, the burden is on me to accept things as they are or move on. Nonetheless, I can't see condoning or defending something so inflammatory, regardless of Steves decision (probably ill-advised) to call it out here or his subsequent posting.

Which brings me to my second point. Steve, "Fuck you for being so condescending." is about the only thing I could find more offensive than red_cells flame bait. One is childish ignorance, the other shows an utter lack of respect for someone you have chosen to engage in conversation. There is a long standing limit to expression, commonly known as 'fighting words', there are some things you just don't say to people unless you are willing to get smacked... maybe you stop trying to find that line.
posted by cedar at 6:22 PM on October 22, 2002


Right cedar, but this thread was meant to criticize foul language, and unfortunately turned into a dogpile of personal attacks on Steve_@_Linwood.

Steve has used some colorful language too, however, but that really wasn't the point.

Please don't say "Hate Speech".
posted by hama7 at 6:31 PM on October 22, 2002


Please don't say "Hate Speech".

Nah, I think it applies. I'm no scholar but to me 'hate speech' is simply words that reveal a bias towards a particular group. It's the use of ugly words for effect, it's the use of language to inspire anger rather reason. That's my definition of hate speech.

I'll leave it to others to play semantic games and try to quantify something as abstract as an emotion. Racism, bigotry, bullying, teasing... whether on the playground or the floor of the Senate... is just plain wrong.

In the highly paraphrased words of some famous guy, "I don't know what to call it, but I know it when I see it."

In the words of some really drunk and not so famous guy, "I don't have to drink piss to know I don't like it."
posted by cedar at 6:45 PM on October 22, 2002


Believe it or not a place like MeFi can influence young people, such as myself, who are not exactly sure where they want to stand in the politcal spectrum.

I'd suggest you might want to look at the facts/arguments of people who are making sense when they argue rather than 75% of the people who argue about politics on a discussion board.

Don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch. Either one, conservative or liberal. There's going to be shrill, over-the-top people on both sides of the spectrum. Just look at facts and try to separate out some rational arguments that flesh out both sides of whatever issue you're looking at.

Honestly, I wouldn't bother labeling yourself a conservative or a liberal. It's a fuckin' waste of time if you ask me. Take it issue by issue and you won't find yourself compromising your beliefs to fit into some mold you made for yourself.
posted by The God Complex at 8:33 PM on October 22, 2002


Oh, and XQUZYPHYR? It was a joke, dude. I thought it was pretty obvious, but I guess not ;)
posted by The God Complex at 8:35 PM on October 22, 2002


Believe it or not a place like MeFi can influence young people, such as myself

We're corrupting young minds -- we're just like Eminem!

posted by matteo at 8:54 PM on October 22, 2002


Believe it or not a place like MeFi can influence young people, such as myself, who are not exactly sure where they want to stand in the political spectrum.

Not to mention that, should you have the fortune to travel outside the US, you will suddenly find yourself completely confused as to what you are. The whole conservative/liberal thing is almost completely an American fabrication and, in some countries, to say you are a liberal would put you on the opposite side of the political spectrum.

Also, don't forget that there are way more than two sides to every issue and none of them are right.

Be who you are, not what you are.
posted by dg at 8:56 PM on October 22, 2002


Also, don't forget that there are way more than two sides to every issue and none of them are right.

When I taught philosophy I had a multitude of students hit me with that grand idea "no one view is right". They concluded that nothing could thereby be wrong... Incorrect on both counts.
posted by Wulfgar! at 9:42 PM on October 22, 2002


But what I'm getting is that somehow calling someone a "Jew-hating, fag-bashing, nigger hater," is acceptable if it's said to someone you disagree with.

That, simply put, is crap.


I think that some of you are misreading red cell's intent. It was clear to me that when he used those words he was implying that conservatives use those terms to describe the people they dislike and that he was, in fact, ridiculing people who would say those things. What he said was overly broad, inflammatory and mostly wrong, but it wasn't racist per se. Accordingly, calling him out in MeTa for racist speech is disingenuous, especially when the person who is calling him out is really upset because red cell was insulting him.

It's equally disingenuous for any of us to say that the only issue is what red cell said. If you're the pot and you call the kettle black, you should anticipate some accusations of hypocrisy.
posted by anapestic at 10:01 PM on October 22, 2002


moz: holgate and rodii, two posters with liberal leanings that have also left the site

holgate and rodii have left? and evanizer too? There are people near the 16000 discussing etiquette and "the problem with newcomers"?

I haven't been here in a while. But it hasn't changed.
posted by qbert72 at 10:18 PM on October 22, 2002


When I taught philosophy I had a multitude of students hit me with that grand idea "no one view is right". They concluded that nothing could thereby be wrong... Incorrect on both counts.

My comment was made partly tongue-in-cheek, based on the constant arguments over differing ways to say the same thing that we see here all the time. Is there an emoticon for tongue-in-cheek? :-*) perhaps?
posted by dg at 10:40 PM on October 22, 2002


A few thoughts:

1) Hate speech = free speech
2) Lighten up already! I'm amazed people get this worked up over some comments on a blog discussion thread, I thought usenet was bad but this thread is taking things to an extreme.
3) Steve- less MeFi, more Fark. One good boobies link and you'll forget all about Red Cell.
posted by MikeMc at 11:13 PM on October 22, 2002


it's called a "troll". and you fell for it. assbag.
posted by jcterminal at 11:14 PM on October 22, 2002


Is there an emoticon for tongue-in-cheek?

"There is no emoticon for what I am feeling!"
posted by inpHilltr8r at 11:35 PM on October 22, 2002


I'm the specialist in boobies links. Currently featuring Melissa Joan Hart cleavage.
posted by nyxxxx at 12:34 AM on October 23, 2002


I don't think I've agreed with Steve at Linnwood more than once since he became a member, but I agree with him here. His later comments in the thread might be worthy of a MeTa callout themselves, if we weren't already talking about them in this thread, but that is beside the point. His post (this thread) is justified. People have been called out for this kind of thing in the past. For less, even. Aside from a few comments, this whole thread is filled with garbage. From nitpicking about whether Red Cell was actually being racist (Steve does not use the word racist in his post, only later when forced to defend it), to whether Steve somehow deserved it because he said bad things too (his questionable remarks came later, as has already been pointed out, so they cannot have incited Red Cell), to attacks because Steve has changed his profile page (which is totally tangential to the subject, and probably related to the fact that people link the damn thing with an "I've got you know" smugness every time he is the topic of conversation).
posted by Nothing at 12:54 AM on October 23, 2002


A new low has been reached, in a number of new and depressing ways. Not pretty. Imminent demise etc etc.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:58 AM on October 23, 2002


Not so much a new low, as an uncomfortably familiar low...
posted by inpHilltr8r at 2:09 AM on October 23, 2002


Are you all STILL talking about this?
posted by konolia at 3:31 AM on October 23, 2002


The horse isn't quite dead yet. It isn't a true etiquette/policy MeTa thread unless we pummel it well into 100+ posts.
posted by Stan Chin at 3:46 AM on October 23, 2002


Metafilter: we're just like Eminem!

posted by quonsar at 4:23 AM on October 23, 2002


The horse isn't quite dead yet.

stupid dead horse

*kicks dead horse*

posted by matteo at 6:43 AM on October 23, 2002


Hey, I was post number 99; I'm not part of the problem, I'm part of the solution. Except for this post. This post is part of the problem.
posted by Nothing at 7:03 AM on October 23, 2002


Metafilter: The horse isn't quite dead yet.
Metafilter: I'm not part of the problem, I'm part of the solution. Except for this post. This post is part of the problem
posted by iceberg273 at 8:57 AM on October 23, 2002


Metafilter: Sod this, I'm going home to get stoned.
posted by i_cola at 10:12 AM on October 23, 2002


er, did you mean "stone this, i'm going home to get sodomized."?
posted by quonsar at 10:39 AM on October 23, 2002


Separated by a common language indeed...
posted by i_cola at 10:55 AM on October 23, 2002


or 'to stoned sod, get this: i'm going home. '?
posted by asok at 3:32 PM on October 23, 2002


I need to get to work.
posted by eddydamascene at 4:04 PM on October 23, 2002


Is there an emoticon for tongue-in-cheek?

;^) - is that it? Or is that the Tobler billboard?
Or the one for About to blow chunks?
posted by y2karl at 4:51 PM on October 23, 2002


;-') perhaps, or ;-") if you speak with forked tongue.
posted by dg at 5:05 PM on October 23, 2002


or you're Paul Henreid lighting a cigarette for yourself and one for Bette Davis in Now, Voyager?
posted by y2karl at 5:19 PM on October 23, 2002


*Cough, cough, wheeze*

Yeah, that must be it.
posted by dg at 5:46 PM on October 23, 2002


This reminds me of that movie Red Dawn.

*WOLVERINES!*

Down with Communism.
posted by insomnyuk at 6:59 PM on October 23, 2002


I saw Red Dawn three times.
Once was my first wedding anniversary.
posted by konolia at 7:35 PM on October 23, 2002


Red Dawn.

and now I'm ghost like Swayze.
posted by eddydamascene at 7:38 PM on October 23, 2002


I love that movie. I bought the dvd. It's one of the two movies that make me cry at the end. That scene where they go to free America and the brothers die in each others arms just tears me up.


The other movie I cry at the end of is The Road Warrior.


posted by nyxxxx at 8:07 PM on October 23, 2002


[Elvis] Man, that's sick... [/Elvis ]
posted by y2karl at 6:34 AM on October 24, 2002


one day....

cheer up steve, at least you have three lassies in your house.

metafilter:more addictive than having three women in your house.

not_a_very_snappy_name_though.
posted by sgt.serenity at 10:59 AM on November 4, 2002


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