yuckkkkkkkkkkkkk February 6, 2003 5:39 AM   Subscribe

23324 - The Grand Cabaret : apparently deleted because "It's just you. Really." Are we saying that it was deleted because everyone disagreed with the poster (they didn't) or because it was likely to offend people (which many other threads risk).

Personally, my brain can't cope when The Sun can run a sensible article about bigger women while MetaFilter responds with "yuckkkkkkkkkkkkk".
posted by twine42 to Etiquette/Policy at 5:39 AM (44 comments total)

Sorry... I got side tracked...

WHat was the real reason for deleting the thread, and if you had been given the kill switch, would you have deleted it?
posted by twine42 at 5:40 AM on February 6, 2003


My guess was that Matt killed it cuz the link was to a single, rather mundane news photograph.
posted by mischief at 5:51 AM on February 6, 2003


That thread had everything I like (big fleshy boobies, some witty commentary, water-gun duels over women, some intellectual discourse mixed in, additional links in the comments) and one thing I didn't ("It's your fault you're fat!" "No, it isn't!", "Yes, it is!" etc.). I wouldn't have killed it.
posted by vito90 at 5:51 AM on February 6, 2003


I like the off-the-wall reasons for deletion...
posted by nthdegx at 5:55 AM on February 6, 2003


It's old news that the top photos on Yahoo News are usually cheesecake shots. Since that's the only reason to post the link, I can see why it was deleted.
posted by rcade at 5:59 AM on February 6, 2003


Suckage supreme.

The "best of the web" it ain't.
posted by hama7 at 6:02 AM on February 6, 2003


Okay... so would a thread starting with the sun story I linked, maybe something on body image, and an article about lingerie companies finally making bigger sizes (I'll trawl breastchronicles for the link) have made a worthy FFP?

I'm getting there...

I still think the Tyler lass was rather nice... if you kill the makeup and the odd hair I'd probably look at Miss Osbourne too...
posted by twine42 at 6:06 AM on February 6, 2003


This is one of the topics Mefi does not do well (1, 2, 3.) It's not that the discussion doesn't have validity, but so many people take it personally that it's an open invitation to flamewar.

The fact that the post seemed to directly provoke these emotions didn't help.

(bug report.. on my third link above, I linked to the google cache. Thread #17926 seems to be broken.)
posted by PrinceValium at 6:23 AM on February 6, 2003


...would a thread starting with the sun story I linked, maybe something on body image, and an article about lingerie companies finally making bigger sizes...have made a worthy FFP?

That depends on the execution. BUT, with those elements added, it would be much tougher to find justification for deletion. Hint.
posted by Shane at 6:28 AM on February 6, 2003


fat threads always deteriorate when bigots who've learned to deal with color or religion suddenly confront fat. while none of them could imagine saying "it's your fault you're a muslim, you could convert" or "it's your fault you're black, there are melanin treatments and plastic surgery, hey, look at michael jackson!" they mindlessly subscribe to exactly that train of thought when it comes to physical bulk. "It's your fault you're fat!" "No, it isn't!", "Yes, it is!" is the only place that thread was going, as has been demonstrated time and time again (no links because it's hard to locate old, deleted threads).
posted by quonsar at 6:29 AM on February 6, 2003


Also, the wording of the post was pretty incoherent.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:31 AM on February 6, 2003


Shane, you suggesting I should have reworded the FFP (It wasn't mine) or resubmit it?

I assumed that was going to be instant deletion...
posted by twine42 at 6:50 AM on February 6, 2003


Or is it just me not used to see things like that ?

It's just you. Really

This seems to suggest that Matt is saying that a 'larger' girl in a bra shouldn't really be such a shock. You seem to think he's got a problem with fat women. In the end the thread descended into a discussion of whether the men here would hit it or not.
posted by Summer at 7:00 AM on February 6, 2003


while MetaFilter responds with "yuckkkkkkkkkkkkk".

no it didn't. "MetaFilter" did not do that, _some_ of its users did, that's different.

weight issues, just like Israeli/Palestinian problems, USA vs Canada, USA vs Europe, SUV's, and of course politics, have always been very delicate topics here. the quality of the debate can go downhill very quickly -- insensitive/ugly comments ignite bickering and flame wars very, very quickly when MeFiit comes to discussing
a) overweight people
b) the reasons behind their weight gain (or lack of weight loss)
c) the attractiveness of plus-size people.

I vividly remember the appalling words of an old FPP: "Are fat chicks ugly?". No wonder crap like this gets deleted.

Me, I think those threads are useful: they unmask the true ideas of people who, maybe, would keep for themselves their derogatory comments about blacks or Jews. The use of racial slurs is not that frequent (Thank God) on MeFi. But then, someone writes "ick" to comment about plus-size women and we all can figure out the way his brain works (if we hadn't already)
posted by matteo at 7:16 AM on February 6, 2003


I look at thread quality as being a bell curve with one end of the spectrum being integration and the other being disintegration. Or think of the end points as "threads that enrich" or "threads that diminish."

There are threads that make me feel glad to be a part of Mefi, which seems comprised of intelligent, sassy, often irreverent yet highly interesting people who hold diverse interests. There are threads that inform, educate and amuse me; threads that have me rolling on the floor laughing, as the cliche goes. I don't think these all have to be serious topics; I don't think they all have to be non-political.

On the opposite end of the spectrum are those threads that seem nothing but a platform for racist, sexist or divisive discourse. Some of these may well be of innocent intent, but simply have a natural gravitation to that direction. These are threads that diminish, that make me feel downright or vaguely icky after having read them, and in which I am exposed to a side of individual members that I wish I never saw. If someone has a political opinion I disagree with, I can usually shrug it off; however, when someone makes a racist, sexist or cruel comment, that's a memory I have more trouble forgetting.

This post leaned precariously to the dark end of the scale for two reasons. First, the weight issue has historically elicited a lot of cruelty here. Second, pictures of underwear clad women posted solely for community critique seems to be a bad path and a recipe for bringing the lorena bobbitt out in many otherwise genial women. There was a thread last week about princess stephanie where members were commenting on how ugly she was like that had any relevance, and it truly bugged me.

We won't always hit the higher plane in our posts, most will wallow in the middle ground. But it would be nice if we could all try harder to avoid the lowlands.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:57 AM on February 6, 2003


I think those threads also highlight that there's a large portion of metafilter users who are 14-year-old boys... either actually, or mentally.
posted by crunchland at 8:00 AM on February 6, 2003


you take the high road..................
posted by sgt.serenity at 8:09 AM on February 6, 2003


Shane, you suggesting I should have reworded the FFP (It wasn't mine) or resubmit it?

I'm just suggesting that, if the post had more meat to it, it would have had a better chance of surviving. Also, with a different spin, it might not have devolved so quickly into "Ugh, she's gross"/"No she's not, I'd hit on her" banter. An added link, as you suggested, might give the post a little more dimension, you know?

If you want to try it, go for it! The more creative post-ers on MeFi have proved that almost anything can be a good post, if it is presented intelligently and creatively.

But what do I know? I once posted a NewsFilter story about a guy putting a beer cooler on his head and robbing a convenient store. (But it turned out to be a good tension breaker, anyway.)
posted by Shane at 8:10 AM on February 6, 2003


Hmmm... maybe I'll put together that post about assisted-flush toilets after all...
posted by Shane at 8:13 AM on February 6, 2003


I think those threads also highlight that there's a large portion of metafilter users who are 14-year-old boys... either actually, or mentally.

I thought we were the mature ones who were thrown out of Fark for being too grown up? ;)

Yeah, that is true. And I'd risk another flame fest by suggesting that they were probably the ones who were arguing that not thin = fat = ugly. Maybe that's an over simplification, but certainly I have found that as I've got older I've stopped associating thin with attractive, and started looking more at what's behind the facade... Very much Shallow Hal style (from what I've gathered from the trailers)
posted by twine42 at 8:15 AM on February 6, 2003


It's all about choices. It pretty much all comes down to this.
(nodding to mr. wonderchicken here.)
posted by madamjujujive at 8:27 AM on February 6, 2003


juju: *smile!*
posted by Shane at 8:28 AM on February 6, 2003


I don't mind that the thread was deleted, but I thought the reason why wasn't sufficent enough, I'd like a more detailed reason, rather than "It's just you", I think it would benefit people more and help them understand why not to post stuff like that.
posted by corpse at 9:06 AM on February 6, 2003


Please forgive my childlike innocence with this ignorant question, but wasn't the point of Matt installing "reason boxes" in deleted threads to, you know, prevent people from starting MeTa threads about why their post was deleted? I'm looking at three. Right now. On the MeTa page. It makes me sad.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:17 AM on February 6, 2003


I read the original thread without looking at the comments. It links to a yahoo news photo and says "How unusual to see someone like this (not a race issue)showing off her bra". I made a joke in the reason, because the photo didn't seem all that strange (most of Yahoo's popular photos are fashion shows). I mean, it's a lingerie show, and the guy is going on about how odd it is to see a bra. That's like saying how surprising it was to watch Nascar and see car tires being changed openly.

I didn't even notice the woman was "plus sized" and since the post seemed so dumb I deleted it. When I looked through the comments the usual flurry of juvenile "ewww, no fat chicks" just backed it up.

If people like posts like that, go to fark.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:19 AM on February 6, 2003


I once posted a NewsFilter story about a guy putting a beer cooler on his head and robbing a convenient store.cooler man was sentenced last week. I have been following the story closely since it ocurred down the street from me at a store I drive by daily; my brush with fame, as it were.


XQUZYPHYR, I was wondering the same thing myself.
posted by TedW at 9:31 AM on February 6, 2003


My problem with this thread, besides being a bad post to begin with, was the discussion that ensued, and what I attempted with my comment in it (which ended up being the last one before it was deleted) is that it had turned into the "She's ugly, I wouldn't sleep with her" vs. "No, you wrong, I think she's hot, I'd sleep with her so everyone slap me on the back for being such a thinking outside the box kind of guy" argument. And both of these are equally insulting because they both treat the subject as a sexual object who should base her entire self-worth on what some guy thinks--good or bad.

Now, someone could argue that these women are models so they brought this on themselves, but does that excuse the objectification itself?
posted by witchstone at 9:39 AM on February 6, 2003


Mr. Pavlich, who has a long record of alcohol offenses, must also undergo drug and alcohol counseling and pay a $500 fine.
Thanks, TedW! This confirms my suspicion that, well.. he was stoned out of his mind. Glad he only got probation.
I guess I should post a follow up to the front page right now! Erm, not really...


Metafilter: car tires being changed openly.
posted by Shane at 9:39 AM on February 6, 2003


If people like posts like that, go to fark.

Q.E.D.
posted by yhbc at 9:41 AM on February 6, 2003


Wow, yhbc. Fark is all over Ms Tyler. That alone is reason enough to delete it here...
posted by Shane at 9:48 AM on February 6, 2003


Please forgive my childlike innocence with this ignorant question, but wasn't the point of Matt installing "reason boxes" in deleted threads to, you know, prevent people from starting MeTa threads about why their post was deleted?

Even if each deletion had a group of scholarly monks, solely dedicated to explaining a thread deletion, MeTa would still be full of "duh, why wuz this deleted?" posts.

Frankly, I think people should get used to dealing with "it wasn't good enough" and having it left at that. There's nothing worse than a deleted thread simply getting repeated in MeTa.

Bottom line: your post is gone. It's not the end of the world. Besides, if need to lift your spirits you could always reference pancakes a few times, willy-nilly, in threads, or maybe make-up your own super-hilarious-never-seen-that-done-before Metafilter tagline. Because, after-all, no one is as clever as you are.
posted by Dark Messiah at 9:48 AM on February 6, 2003


"I think it would benefit people more and help them understand why not to post stuff like that."

You must be kidding. I think it would benefit people to pull their head from their ass.

That post was so obviously not Metafilter material that the only way to explain it to someone who didn't see that would be to explain, at length, what Metafilter is about. In other words, do we really need to type a whole page into the "reason" box just some for someone who clearly isn't going to get it anyway?

The link is dumb. The post is dumb. And any resulting discussion was bound to be dumb. The reason box was for cases were there was some ambiguity. There is none here. Does anyone really expect and/or want drek like that filling the homepage.

"It's just you. Really."

That sums it up for me. Would it be better if he'd typed in "Take it to Fark"? Would it be better if he'd typed in "Not Metafilter material"? No, because then some clueless bastard would be asking what that meant.

"If people like posts like that, go to fark."

Yer damn right. And if you can't tell the difference, go to Fark. And if you don't see the problem is, go to Fark.

XQUZYPHYR - People don't get it. They refuse to get it. The idea of making an attempt to get it is beyond them. "I have a thought. Let's have a group chat about that." They never even consider that we don't need to chat about every freakin thing.

Look, Matt deleted the post. Which he'll do for whatever reason he wants. He's even nice enough to hand code a little box that will let you know what he was thinking when he deleted it. That's more than you deserve. If you don't get it, then you don't get it. Nothing Matt or anyone says is going to help.
posted by y6y6y6 at 10:01 AM on February 6, 2003


Wow. Did this thread just get really Dark and condescending, or did the lights just flicker and dim?
posted by Shane at 10:07 AM on February 6, 2003


Miss Tyler is hot, HOT HOT HOT.

I'd hit it over and over and over.

Oh, shit. Wrong site.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:26 AM on February 6, 2003


What Witchy said.
posted by Kafkaesque at 10:33 AM on February 6, 2003


Holy crap, the fark thread is fucked up, I hadn't seen how they handled the same link. The tone in my 8th grade PE class showers was more cerebral than what Fark has become.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:49 AM on February 6, 2003


...on the bonnie, bonnie banks of Loch Lomond.
posted by y2karl at 11:35 AM on February 6, 2003


I think witchstone has the best point. Have some respect for the model, for yourself, for metafilter.
posted by ashbury at 11:56 AM on February 6, 2003


I look at thread quality as being a bell curve with one end of the spectrum being integration and the other being disintegration.

ok. any more of THAT, young lady, and i'm going to have to kick you off blort.
posted by quonsar at 12:39 PM on February 6, 2003


I didn't even notice the woman was "plus sized" and since the post seemed so dumb I deleted it. When I looked through the comments the usual flurry of juvenile "ewww, no fat chicks" just backed it up.

I have to say thta's a great thing to see...
posted by twine42 at 2:27 PM on February 6, 2003


Can't mathowie even have a bit of a joke without someone calling him out over it? Sheesh, a two-year old could see why the thread was deleted and I am amazed that it lasted as long as it did.

madamjujujive, that was a great analysis. I will have to look for something to post to drag me away from the dark side of the bell curve before it sucks me in.
posted by dg at 2:37 PM on February 6, 2003


thanks dg....of course you realize that this analysis comes from the woman who posted the infamous piano player....highbrow r us!
(But then of course it was posted for its educational value.)
posted by madamjujujive at 7:36 PM on February 6, 2003


Dearest MJJ,
I just gotta say
your 1st post of today
certainly earns an "A."
I ♥ madamjujujive!
posted by Lynsey at 8:53 PM on February 6, 2003


....awww, Lynsey - that's sweet - thanks!
posted by madamjujujive at 6:52 AM on February 8, 2003


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