Last one left turns off the light February 10, 2003 9:13 AM   Subscribe

Despite MetaFilter's honourable roots and tradition, I get the feeling that a significant and increasing amount of members has no interest whatsoever in web design, computers, blogs, programming or, in fact, anything remotely technical or even geeky. A few seem to be unimpressed by the Internet itself. Are we witnessing the secularization of MetaFilter? Is our future broadly cultural and political rather than Web-specific?
posted by MiguelCardoso to MetaFilter-Related at 9:13 AM (56 comments total)

Examples?
posted by i_cola at 9:15 AM on February 10, 2003


Isn't it obvious, i_cola? Look at the 1,2,3-year ago archives and the declining amount of posts and comments on uniquely webby and techie themes, as well as the ever-greater proportion of newsy, arts-related, political, social or generally real-life-centred participation, seems to indicate that the medium and media have been gradually overlooked in favour of, as it were, pace McLuhan, the messages. I think it's a sign of maturity, btw.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 9:28 AM on February 10, 2003


Despite MetaFilter's the Web's honourable roots and tradition, I get the feeling that a significant and increasing amount of members users have no interest whatsoever in web design, computers, blogs, programming or, in fact, anything remotely technical or even geeky. A few seem to be unimpressed by the Internet itself computers themselves. Are we witnessing the secularization of MetaFilter the Web? Is our future broadly cultural and political rather than Webcomputer-specific?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:29 AM on February 10, 2003


Because I hate computers so much, I've hired a butler to read Metafilter out loud for me.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 9:36 AM on February 10, 2003


I get the feeling that a significant and increasing amount of members has no interest whatsoever in web design, computers, blogs, programming or, in fact, anything remotely technical or even geeky.

I'd say /. has pretty much cornered that market by now.
posted by 111 at 9:37 AM on February 10, 2003


I thought MeFi was about posting things that most people haven't seen before, something interesting about the content on the page, and might warrant discussion from others.

Maybe I missed the part where it was supposed to be tech-oriented, not being of said persuasion myself...is this another one of the unspoken guidelines that only the hardcore members are cognizant of?
posted by lazaruslong at 9:38 AM on February 10, 2003


NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!
posted by Stan Chin at 9:41 AM on February 10, 2003


You're right, Matt. Killingly pointed out, too. I was taking the tree for the forest. I should get out more - in the Web, I mean. It's still the case, though, that MetaFilter has traditionally been ahead of other community weblogs. The amount of non-Web-specific posts, even in the very early days, was refreshing, prescient and unusual.

Still, I think that other weblogs have become ever more specialized, against the grain, whilst MetaFilter has been singularly open to, er, generalization.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 9:47 AM on February 10, 2003


I think it's a sign of maturity, btw.

maturity only in the sense that mathowie outlined, i suspect. you might hope that as established communities get bigger (with steadily lowering common denominator), new communities will start (so that some kind of scale-free distribution occurs). however, i think that's doubtful for three reasons:

1 the environment has changed - the web isn't the same as when mefi started. in particular, the big communities might attract people who would otherwise be involved in the smaller ones.
2 (possibly 1 from a different angle) - when the pool was small, people with different views were thrown together. although uniform in some respects (computer literate etc), they had less choice about, say, politics. new communities, in contrast, can be specific in more areas.
3 as fed up as i (sometimes) am with mefi, i haven't found anything better (despite actively looking). i think this must be some kind of tribute to matt.

[in other words, as the internet becomes larger it's becoming a better approximation to scale free; unfortunately the conditions necessary for a mefi include the need for limited resources/fixed scales]

on preview - i can remember when /. was readable.
posted by andrew cooke at 9:48 AM on February 10, 2003


Well, shoot, some of us aren't geeks by any stretch of the imagination, but I would like to think some of us are interested in web design, etc. anyway. I know I have learned some useful things here without feeling too intimidated. Beats Newsfilter-I already WENT to Drudge Report before I got here, folks.
posted by konolia at 9:51 AM on February 10, 2003


I blame AOL.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 9:52 AM on February 10, 2003


Since when was MetaFilter a design/tech forum? How about since 1999, when I as a web designer started it. Up until a year or so ago, design/tech links dominated what was here on the site.
mathowie, September 23, 2002

Even over the last year, I've seen a further decline in Web-related posts and discussions here. I suppose it is inevitable, but I miss it.

I know that there's slashdot, but I find it intimidatingly technical and annoyingly religious about it.
posted by timeistight at 9:56 AM on February 10, 2003


secularization? ah, shit. i barely survived the miguelification...
posted by quonsar at 10:01 AM on February 10, 2003


i don't know about everyone else, but i come here for the discourse. intelligent conversations plus cheeky banter seem to be uncommon these days.
posted by triv at 10:05 AM on February 10, 2003


I think that other weblogs have become ever more specialized, against the grain, whilst MetaFilter has been singularly open to, er, generalization.

Other weblogs are usually done by one person, and as people gain more experience they tend to specialize or limit the topics of what they are really good at, and I suspect that would color their writing (say a first year audio engineering student might be interested in just about anything and have a blog that reflects that, whereas a 30 year veteran of Bell Labs might only post about audio waveform mechanics and engineering research).

MetaFilter has gotten more general because it's been open to others and as more people come on board, the chance that it would specialize is low.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:23 AM on February 10, 2003


anyone fancy a pint?
posted by mokey at 10:42 AM on February 10, 2003


Because I hate computers so much, I've hired a butler to read Metafilter out loud for me.

Can I take a break now?
posted by jonmc at 11:09 AM on February 10, 2003


anyone fancy a pint?

I think we have plenty of *wine* to go around.
posted by lazaruslong at 11:18 AM on February 10, 2003


That said, it's quite unnerving how interested we literary types have become in the niceties of nightly Mozillas, squalid SQL servers and frigid ColdFusion bugs. When I joined MetaFilter I thought a server was a waiter and "rendered static" meant frozen, by sheer embarrassment, in one's moccasins.

I guess the attraction is mutual, what?

I am reminded of (I think) Norman Douglas's experience, when passports were introduced and a slot for "profession" was required, daringly defining himself as a "writer". Except that his R was slovenly written and, for his pains and the rest of his life, was greeted disrespectfully by officials at the world's borders, as a "waiter". Immortally, he recorded that this was not a profession which brought about instant deference.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 11:21 AM on February 10, 2003


Because I hate computers so much, I've hired a butler to read Metafilter out loud for me.

Can I take a break now?


Yes, okay. But when you get back remember what I said about making the Miguel voice "squeakier".
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 11:22 AM on February 10, 2003


I wouldn't say that MetaFilter is geek-free yet, my nerdy compatriots. Just yesterday a discussion on the merits/demise of floppy disks was the second most popular post (57 comments) of the day--only narrowly defeated by a post on alcohol, which, let's face it, always wins.
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 11:22 AM on February 10, 2003


This is what the chat room is for no?
posted by riffola at 11:24 AM on February 10, 2003


I think the point is valid, but I think the shift is less striking than people think, as evidenced by the posts from today's date three years ago. The links from that day are mostly non-tech posts:
  • Craig Kilborn and the KKK
  • Candy
  • South Park
  • Nixon
  • Transsexual New Zealanders
  • The Death of Jim Varney (sadly missed)
  • "Freaks and Geeks" (ditto)
  • band-aids
  • A comic based on the Backstreet Boys (terrifying)
and a mere three techy posts:
  • IBM's new "millipede" storage technology
  • Unethical web resume scraping
  • A PBS special about Netscape
While we're at it, forget what everyone is saying about how MeFi used to be more intelligent...
posted by vraxoin at 11:29 AM on February 10, 2003


A while ago I started a campaign to redress the balance of cyb3r-topics but then I was distracted by a shiny transexual thing.
posted by holloway at 11:30 AM on February 10, 2003


Matt put it best. However, I have long contended that the current net is still in utero; it will be born when broadcast quality video is available over 'wide-area' wireless networks. Then(!), we will see a paradigm shift that has a true social impact.
posted by mischief at 11:43 AM on February 10, 2003


The only vestige that I personally feel of this being a design-related site is that I experience a moment of hesitation before linking to really ugly web sites in posts or even in comments. Anybody else get this?
posted by Hildago at 11:50 AM on February 10, 2003


This is what the chat room is for no?
chat rooms? arent those full of like, gay lesbian pedophile stalkers trolling for sex with underage children and barnyard animals? or are those the fbi agents?

it will be born when broadcast quality video is available over 'wide-area' wireless networks. Then(!), we will see a paradigm shift that has a true social impact.
you mean when they turn the internet into a big tv station? when the entire internet is a supplement to jack valenti's retirement income? when they finally gain total control over content and silence the rabble that's currently cluttering up perfectly good commercial bandwidth? god help us. the only paradigm shifting will be the dirt surrounding the internet's tomb as it rolls in it's grave.
posted by quonsar at 11:54 AM on February 10, 2003


Exactly three years ago today there was a gay-straight alliance club thread. And hey there is one today too.

See somethings never change.
posted by Recockulous at 11:57 AM on February 10, 2003


we will see a paradigm shift that has a true social impact.
Great, paradigm shifting porn with pop up commercials, and wireless anywhere access.
on preview, as Quonsar said.
posted by mss at 11:59 AM on February 10, 2003


However, I have long contended that the current net is still in utero; it will be born when broadcast quality video is available over 'wide-area' wireless networks.

Y'know, I think there's a man you ought to meet. Name's Farnsworth.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 12:01 PM on February 10, 2003


Is our future broadly cultural and political rather than Web-specific?

Let us hope as much, as computers, though a defining meter of contemporary culture, are merely a part of the grand whole.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 12:11 PM on February 10, 2003


Not being a techie, I'd not noticed the secularization of mefi. It seems to me there are other sites that are purely techie, like /. but mefi exists in the midst of a dynamic group of people with many shared and even more dissimilar interests. Sometimes I enjoy reading the computer stuff just because it's so unfamiliar to me. I've even learned some crude HTML and have discovered IRC. Mainly by watching and asking questions. Riffola is a seemingly endless resource. ♥ Mefi, to me, is a meeting of minds both technically interested and people who are more literary and even more often, people who are both.
I love how the spellchecker wants to call 'mefi' 'mafia.'
posted by elwoodwiles at 12:47 PM on February 10, 2003


Mefites bring their considerable insight to bear on web-stuff of all kinds. That insight is informed by a wide variety of backgrounds, technical and non-technical. I appreciate both, especially when I'm so often in between the techies and the luddites in my job.

I'm preparing a paper on using blogs to teach critical thinking, and I'm hoping to figure out how to use blogging to teach freshman to evaluate information online and offline. If the freshman turn out half as insightful as some of the posters I've seen here, I'd consider the class a success.
posted by answergrape at 1:38 PM on February 10, 2003


say, i think this 'what the spellchecker suggests' business is a meme about to explode into a vibrating pancake bunny overlord any minute. i predict a MetaThread on the subject will appear soon, and i for one...
posted by quonsar at 1:38 PM on February 10, 2003


Metafilter: Your Vibrating Pancake Bunny Overlord.
posted by vraxoin at 2:30 PM on February 10, 2003


This 'spellchecker suggests' meme... is it something I have to have a TV to watch?
posted by RylandDotNet at 2:32 PM on February 10, 2003


Very well put mathowie. As a non tech-working humanoid with an interest in all things technical, I love the tech and web design threads where people without an encyclopedic knowledge on the subject are welcome to put in their 2c worth. I love that those of us who comment within our ability are not put down by those who generally sneer at anyone who cannot hold a conversation entirely composed of c++ commands. The variety of topics on MeFi is the big attraction but, without the geeky undertow (there is a little geek in all of us and MeFi lets it come out and play without laughing at it), it would not be the same place. IMHO, of course.

As far as the "what the spellchecker suggest" thing, I have to wonder about a spellchecker that does not recognise "spellchecker"
posted by dg at 2:42 PM on February 10, 2003


Ok, that's it, this is one meme I'm going to nip in the bud.

[Hildago grimly downs a swig of bourbon, then takes his .30-30 from the wall. Goes outside to where the newly-born "Spellchecker Suggests" meme is being nursed by its mother. Shoots meme twice in the back of the head. Buries it at a crossroads. Murders any witnesses. Commits suicide.]
posted by Hildago at 2:46 PM on February 10, 2003


I'm gonna miss that Hidalgo feller.
posted by yhbc at 2:50 PM on February 10, 2003


"Shoots meme twice in the back of the head."

The spellchecker meme does not recognize "shoots." Recommends "kisses." Spellchecker meme escapes, unharmed, to annoy again.
posted by vraxoin at 2:53 PM on February 10, 2003


Is meme pronounced to rhyme with gene, or hem? Spellchecker suggests memo...
posted by Orange Goblin at 3:08 PM on February 10, 2003


Now look what you have done, quasar!
posted by dg at 3:17 PM on February 10, 2003


This meme you speak of, is it something I need to read metafilter to know about?
posted by elwoodwiles at 3:21 PM on February 10, 2003


Talk about a digital divide.
posted by crunchland at 3:43 PM on February 10, 2003


Metafilter: Spellcheck suggests detailer
posted by blue_beetle at 4:02 PM on February 10, 2003


Miquel: I know not of this great past of which you speak. It sounds like a paradise. I have to agree with Matt. The web is changing. Maybe we all are: no more than 3-4 of your last 28 FPP were really "techy".

On the Post a Link page Matt isn't specific to "techy" items. It says: "Found something cool on the web and want to share it with everyone else? Great! Just fill the blanks and it'll go live. A sample link is shown below. If this is your first post, please read the guidelines."The sample link is about the LA Times changing for a single movie...which really isn't techy.

Why make a FPP? I wonder if some people, before they post, think of "How popular will my FPP be?". I've seen users make note of how popular their FPP was based on the number of comments it receives.

A FPP disappears quickly. Does this quick exit combined with perceived popularity ask posters to find something that attracts a lot of attention....rather than something merely unusual or cool?

I also wonder if number of comments is a true indicator of "popularity" rather than attributed to "commonality." A post on writing for pulp magazines will hook a fewer number of people than a post on alcohol sales. Everyone over 12 has an alcohol purchase story. It doesn't take any expertise to comment or give an opinion.

Making a comment is easy and the person making the comment receives that good feeling of contributing. Even if contribution is as simple as repeating a meme.

And non-tech FPPs and comments will always be easier for the socially diverse group that is Metafilter.
posted by ?! at 4:40 PM on February 10, 2003


I think the difference is that more of the posts used to be about the Web itself, as opposed to news and information that is being reported on the Web and everywhere else.

The Web has become more user friendly, easier for the average joe or josephina to use. Metafilter started as a gathering of Bloggers, who necessarily were interested in tech aspects of the Web.

Now we can just type our gibberish into Blogger or similar service and press "publish". It's magic like the teevee and the toaster-oven. And many of the new MeFites don't even have blogs. They're just interested in the news and talking about it. That's fine, but the new folks shouldn't be indignant about the older folks speaking from experience, and should not presume to tell them how the site should be run.

Matt, after all, is the only one who can say that.

I think it's a sign of maturity, btw.

Miguel, I don't really know what you mean by that.
posted by Kafkaesque at 5:16 PM on February 10, 2003


[quonsar shrieks maniacally, leaping into the air and pogoing up the side of the wall, flinging great fistfuls of brach's jelly nougats in every direction.]
posted by quonsar at 8:01 PM on February 10, 2003


i've always wanted to do that in here.
posted by quonsar at 8:02 PM on February 10, 2003


i think it's the decor...
posted by quonsar at 8:04 PM on February 10, 2003


Since the jelly's ruined the decor now, don't let it happen again.
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 10:22 PM on February 10, 2003


I know I have learned some useful things here without feeling too intimidated.
posted by y2karl at 11:41 PM on February 10, 2003


MetaTalk - where no point goes un-belaboured.

Lessee...

I can write an easy, obvious answer to an obviously contrived question, or I can write what I just wrote, or I could've written nothing at all...but I won't, so I didn't - but I did let it settle to the bottom.
posted by Opus Dark at 2:44 AM on February 11, 2003


but I did let it settle to the bottom

Metafilter Community Blog? Spellchecker suggests "Bog".
posted by taz at 4:11 AM on February 11, 2003


a link for any remaining geeks - xml was 5 years old yesterday. that's from the date of the 1.0 recommendation, but it still seems a surprisingly short time to me.
posted by andrew cooke at 5:30 AM on February 11, 2003


Am I the only one who finds myself getting more general as I go on, on v-2 as in life?

I started out with a fairly strong design/tech focus, but as overdetermined as those subjects are, I've been following them out to their inputs, or catchment areas - history, sociology, ethnography, cognitive psychology, law.

The upshot is that the things I feel moved to post about get more and more diverse (diffuse?) over time. I imagine that it drives certain readers nuts, and that I probably lose some percentage of the since-2000 crowd every time I post on, say, copyright law.

Something vaguely similar happening here, maybe?
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:42 AM on February 11, 2003


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