I am inclined to think this is a bit over the line. April 21, 2003 12:57 PM   Subscribe

?
posted by y2karl to Etiquette/Policy at 12:57 PM (139 comments total)

!
posted by shepd at 1:06 PM on April 21, 2003


Some day you'll find the balance between long ass post and short ass post. Then you will have reached nirvana.
posted by eyeballkid at 1:07 PM on April 21, 2003


It seems clear that your assessment of Witty is dead accurate. Still, what can be done. If a witless anonymous coward wants to troll all over the site, really only one person can prevent it.
posted by jonson at 1:10 PM on April 21, 2003



posted by Pretty_Generic at 1:12 PM on April 21, 2003


Actually, it seems to be race baiting day on MeFi. Stated venomously, and in threads where race in tangentially(at best) related to the subject at hand. The race card as usual is played by people with little else to contribute. Some of y'all just weren't hit enough as children, were you?
posted by jonmc at 1:21 PM on April 21, 2003


this might've been better as an email to numero uno, you know, as to not attract more attention, you know, you know?
posted by angry modem at 1:22 PM on April 21, 2003


42.
posted by jaden at 1:23 PM on April 21, 2003


wow. i had not seen that example of witty's witlessness.
lets see,

Spic = 4 days
Nigger = 3 days
Nip = 2 days
Towelhead = 1 day


witty = now.
posted by quonsar at 1:26 PM on April 21, 2003


Still, what can be done.

Establish a consensus and set limits as a community, for one. I have no doubt it will be deleted--that does not mean it should not be noted.
posted by y2karl at 1:30 PM on April 21, 2003


You will be consumed by your own fire, mother fucker.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 1:38 PM on April 21, 2003


If witty had said:

Hispanic = 4 days
African-American = 3 days
Asian = 2 days
Arab = 1 day

would there still be all the angry? Is the problem the language or the sentiment? Like jonmc pointed out, it's not like the race card isn't getting played a lot lately. If we're going to say "Please don't do [something]" I think we at least need to be clear on what [something] is.
posted by Cyrano at 1:44 PM on April 21, 2003


42.

86.
posted by y2karl at 1:44 PM on April 21, 2003


Okay, I'm usually the last person to defend witty, who is on my list of Mefites whose names are often contradictory, e.g.:

witty = not
jonson = not a dick (despite what his name would suggest)

BUT, wasn't this meant to be an "ironic" comment, as in, "A country like this that uses such racial slurs as 'nigger' and 'nip' would surely kill a minority more quickly than a WASP"..?
posted by Shane at 1:48 PM on April 21, 2003


"?"

?!

(see also ?!)
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:49 PM on April 21, 2003


(I'm just sayin', would anyone seriously use a racial slur on Mefi?)
posted by Shane at 1:52 PM on April 21, 2003


There is pushing the envelope to make a point and, then again, there is saying poop in front of the ladies auxiliary just to get away with it.
Would you feel comfortable with an ironic use of cunt or cocksucker?
Perhaps. Would everyone else? No. We're all in this together.
posted by y2karl at 2:07 PM on April 21, 2003


shane: very possibly, although his "the sooner the better" prefacing of the comment makes me wonder. Either way, it changes little about his posting history: he's just a wee bit immature, and digs getting people riled up. Not sure that y2karl's community limits would have much effect.
posted by jonson at 2:07 PM on April 21, 2003


Look, I'm like 99.99% sure Witty was being sarcastic/ironic, but still... damn. That comment just went the wrong way.

And jonmc: please. Accuse me of "race-baiting" all you want, but there's a difference between discussing racism and being a demagogue. I was responding to someone's comment to me, it certainly didn't "have venom," and it was in regards to a discussion about the media interpretation of a story.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 2:18 PM on April 21, 2003


Thanks, jonmc, for recognizing "pretty white women" sneers, which appear with numbing regularity here, as the race (and gender) baiting they are.
posted by transona5 at 2:19 PM on April 21, 2003


I would never do it myself, but I wouldn't really call someone out for ironically using the n-word. For instance, if a mefite that i knew to be black or even very progressive about race were to make that exact post, i might even chuckle. but witty, all else aside, has shown himself to be insensitive and elitist, and i would bet that he was being earnestly racist. while that might be legal, my reaction to it were we in the "real world" right now sure as hell would not be.

witty-
e-mail me, or some mefite who has posted useful links about race in the past, like maybe y2karl (i mention you because i imagine that you live in a giant warehouse full of informative links and sleep in a card catalog). race is a crazy issue, and no-one has the benefit of looking at it objectively. there is some smart, academic writing from a wide vatriety of disciplines that can help you get a different handle on it. i would be willing to bet that you grew up in an ethnically homogenous or charged environemnt. i can relate, man. you've got a noodle, and you can use it to save your ass. if nothing else, failing to deal with racism and how it drives your thinking is going to limit you as an individual. you can bank on that.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 2:19 PM on April 21, 2003


10-42
posted by clavdivs at 2:24 PM on April 21, 2003


The most shocking thing about this is pretty_generic's discovery that the marquee tag hasn't been disabled.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 2:25 PM on April 21, 2003


Look, I'm like 99.99% sure Witty was being sarcastic/ironic, but still... damn. That comment just went the wrong way.

And jonmc: please. Accuse me of "race-baiting" all you want, but there's a difference between discussing racism and being a demagogue. I was responding to someone's comment to me, it certainly didn't "have venom," and it was in regards to a discussion about the media interpretation of a story.


For what it's worth, I agree... if you're a white women.
posted by The God Complex at 2:25 PM on April 21, 2003


Spoken like the generic 16 year old with DSL and ample spare time.
posted by y2karl at 12:46 PM PST on April 21


Looks like you've lobbed your own equally inappropriate response back to him. I guess the two cancel each other out, then?
posted by dhoyt at 2:26 PM on April 21, 2003


PS - I haven't been watching the news lately. Did any rich white kids get kidnapped or can we stop worrying about that now?
posted by The God Complex at 2:26 PM on April 21, 2003


I think I agree with y2karl, shane AND jonson, they don't seem to present contradictory viewpoints. Witty has been known to throw out a ascorbic and immature and inappropriate comment to get a reaction from the softies. Its rude and childish, yes, it does occasionally get his point across despite its lack of debate skill, prudence or rationality. It does push the envelope and it makes many people uncomfortable, but I'm not sure how much of a punishment is appropriate either, perhaps calmly, rationally asking repeatedly that he please tone it down a bit has failed thus far and has at times even spurred on more rude commentary, so maybe it is time to have tangible consequences. I agree that use of questionable language is common and often used for effect, but where do you draw a line on something like that. I saw witty's point in his comments, I saw his irony, I may not agree with his brash and immature phrasing or the point he was trying to make, but he actually was trying to make a point, what to do?

Also, I will once again enter the fray to defend those of us who do not wish to list our e-mails publicly. We are not cowards. If you have something you'd like to say to us and you can't say it here, then I don't want to hear it. If you are afraid to say something publicly, then perhaps you should reconsider calling US cowards.
posted by Pollomacho at 2:27 PM on April 21, 2003


dhoyt:
no.

a regular old insult does not equal a racial slur.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 2:29 PM on April 21, 2003


The most shocking thing about this is pretty_generic's discovery that the marquee tag hasn't been disabled.

no, no. Just another img tag and animated gif.
posted by crunchland at 2:32 PM on April 21, 2003


ascorbic ?

Oh, great, now he's a vitamin, too?
I hate to think what the RDA is, then. ;)
posted by y2karl at 2:36 PM on April 21, 2003


y2karl, I find the words "geek" and "nerd" just as offensive, but I don't make metatalk posts when I see them.

Can't you all just chill out? It isn't like you found another instance of witty using "racist" language. Perhaps you should either put this down as a one time mistake (post your feelings in that thread) or a poor joke (again, not exactly a winner topic for MetaTalk).

Why can't I see more "Mefi is slow/down/broken" or "This user posted 100 garbage comments" type topics here? Perhaps it's time for me to post some.
posted by shepd at 2:37 PM on April 21, 2003


no, no. Just another img tag and animated gif.
*Wipes horizontally scrolling sweat from forehead*

posted by PinkStainlessTail at 2:38 PM on April 21, 2003


why does this have to polarizing? is there a mefi racist contingent that wants to assert its values and welcome witty?

i didn't think so. look, a member of this community, one that many can agree is young or maybe immature, demonstrated that he is entertaining some wild ideas. what id he said that you could power a car with whoe milk? would you ignore it because it is harmless, or inform him that doing so will destroy his car (i would imagine)? my point is that analogies are difficult to amke somtimes.

witty, show your face. people on mefi can teach you things. i imagine you know that, as you come to metafilter often.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 2:44 PM on April 21, 2003


I hate to say, but a communal solution type thingy won't work in this case, because it is the "community" that gives rise to Witty's line of BS. Its pretty obvious that Witty is all sarcastic pissed off cause those somewhat right of the pack aren't heeded as the lonely voices of reason they are. We're the ones who push them out of our oh-so liberal discussions, so radical measures are required to let us know how silly our daring to examine racial overtones is.

Of course that does beg the question: If we're all so screwed up by our silly leftist think, who made it his job to offend us into rightiousness?

Plea for attention, folks, that's all it was, and all it is.
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:44 PM on April 21, 2003


Hey... rednecks are racists mother fuckers, right. But does that mean a redneck can't be a member of MetaFilter?

gottabefunky was asking for someone to concur with his statement (which was nothing more than argumentative bullshit). So I did... and I did it in the most unexpected way I could think of. I think it's interesting that we're all here having a discussion about how uncomfortable everyone gets when they see the word nigger in print.

Saracastic? Of course.

...but I'm not sure how much of a punishment is appropriate either...

For what? Hey, I play the part in this thing that I play. I don't like some of you folks either. I don't like the way some of you play the game. I don't like your opinions, your ideals, your methods, etc. Surprised?

It's fine if some of you (hell, all of you) want to call me a racist or whatever. And I have no problem admitting that I have "issues" with race. But I assure you they aren't based on the color of someone's skin (if that makes any sense). I just don't choose to skirt around the topic of race as gingerly as some of you do. That's fine too. If it makes some of you uncomfortable, oh well. What can I say?

I don't think I'm as bad as some fo you are painting me out to be. But hey... life.
posted by Witty at 2:50 PM on April 21, 2003


I say we lynch him.
posted by crunchland at 2:50 PM on April 21, 2003


If a witless anonymous coward wants to troll all over the site

then perhaps you should reconsider calling US cowards.


We're members, for starters. You can call me, your choice, but please don't call me late to dinner...
posted by thomcatspike at 2:53 PM on April 21, 2003


Thank you, Witty, for making my point with a finely honed edge.
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:53 PM on April 21, 2003


An full time asshole can be a member of MetaFilter but I don't believe a MetaFilter member can't get away with being an asshole full time. You may correct me if I am wrong by getting away with being one.
posted by y2karl at 2:57 PM on April 21, 2003


Er, I mean,

A full time asshole can be a member of MetaFilter but I don't believe a MetaFilter member can get away with being an asshole full time. You may correct me if I am wrong by getting away with it.
posted by y2karl at 3:03 PM on April 21, 2003


y2karl, I try to be a full time asshole, but I just use MeFi for practice.
posted by shepd at 3:04 PM on April 21, 2003


But I assure you they aren't based on the color of someone's skin (if that makes any sense).

it does.

modern conceptions of race were not arrived at "naturally" over huge periods of time. they came to be as a result of a very specific period of bad science. in a sense, darwinian evolutionary models were mal-applied, fudged, and in some instances wrong.

scroll down a bit on this page, and the links on "scientific racism" are pretty decent. the best thing to do is to read henry huxley and others' writings from the period.

wulfgar:
i am not trying to do some sort of community intervention thing. i just feel like witty really enjoys thinking that he is right. this will probably still apply if he is right. it is my experience that people do not become zealous or dogmatic because they are overly comfortable with their own views. it is more like a defense mechanism.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 3:05 PM on April 21, 2003


I'm no more right, or think I am, than anyone else on this site. I thought gottabefunky's statement was absurd... so I responded with absurdity. It's not I invented sarcasm. It's just the use of terms y'all don't like. My post wouldn't have carried the same message if I had used Hispanics, African-Americans, Asians, or Arabs. That's the point. His comment came with assumed racism, my came with obvious racism. Where's the controversy?
posted by Witty at 3:27 PM on April 21, 2003


But I assure you they aren't based on the color of someone's skin (if that makes any sense).

Makes perfect sense. 'Been listening to it for years. My ex-father-in-law was such an upstanding citizen. He had no problem with black people, unless they acted all urban and funky and important. If they made jokes about how women wanted them, or talked about how good they were at sports, that was disrespectful, and arrogant. And God help the world if the bad ones rioted or turned to crime. Those are the ones we can call niggers cause they act that way, right?

And those silly Indians. Stayen' on the Reservations and taking our tax dollars for nothing, just so's they could get drunk at the bar. Man, nothin' but prairie-niggers, Hoops. Don't trust them, but the ones who act in movies and better themselves. Now they're okay.

Its not about the color, its about the behavior, right? Listen, Witty. Before you dig yourself a deeper hole, how 'bout you not get all righteous and all knowing about race, while trying to shock the rest of us to our senses? Before you came out with that, I just thought you were an angry attention seeker. Now, I'm not so sure ...

On preview, there is no controversy. You just acted like an ass and are trying to ennoble yourself by it. You got called on it, and now you're chest beating even more.
posted by Wulfgar! at 3:34 PM on April 21, 2003


PC elitists! The question of the death of irony is moot when so many do not recognize it.
posted by mischief at 3:44 PM on April 21, 2003


Give me a break Wulfgar!. You're the one making a bigger deal out of this. I simply told you my train of thought on the comment... explaining where I was, and am, coming from.

Don't presume to know from where my issues come. You don't know me any better than I know you. If anyone is acting all righteous, it's you. I suppose you have a nice firm grip on race in America. I suppose you're just a perfect fit in this melting pot of ours.

Where did I claim that I have all the answers. Yes, I was trying to be shocking, but nothing more.

You just acted like an ass and are trying to ennoble yourself by it. You got called on it, and now you're chest beating even more.

C'mon Wulfgar! Back off on the dramatics. I may be defending myself (as would anyone), but I'm not "chest beating". It's not my fault that you didn't get my sarcasm.

I ask you, what did you mean by redneck anyway?
posted by Witty at 3:53 PM on April 21, 2003


Frankie says relax.

I read it as totally over-the-top absurdity, with a hint of a smile because he knew what he was doing. It doesn't always come across in hypertext, but I could figure out he was non-serious and using a very ironic, dry type of comedy.

It'd probably be funnier in person (at least the awkward silence that followed it would be a crackup), but then again I know someone refused to ever speak to me again when I made an absurdist joke to poke fun at racists one time (they thought I was dead serious).

Seems like mountains out of molehills to me. We're all intelligent people, right? Everyone can see Witty doesn't seriously use those terms, right?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:55 PM on April 21, 2003


Witty, since you seem to have missed it, I too was being completely over-the-top with my little tale of your possible racists beliefs. I don't know nor do I care if you believe as my ex-father-in-law. What you said left the question open, and yet its somehow our failing that we didn't get your intent ... exactly as you didn't get mine. Think next time, will you?
posted by Wulfgar! at 4:06 PM on April 21, 2003


In answer to your question, allow me to re-appropriate a term that seems all the rage among the poorly reasoned right. A redneck is an "idiotarian" who swallows whatever propaganda makes him/her feel like they belong to the herd, and are on the right side of every issue, provided someone else has thought it through for them; someone who actually thinks FOX news has his best interests and those of the nation at heart. A redneck wallows in shallowness, and enjoys reality TV as if its anything real, kinda like pro-wrestling. A generic term for the proudly under-educated and under-thought. Yes, it is based on a particular stereotype, removed from the original connotation by far, which would be meaningful if such people didn't so obviously exist. Whatever did you think I meant?
posted by Wulfgar! at 4:21 PM on April 21, 2003


I'm really starting to hate this place.
posted by timeistight at 4:23 PM on April 21, 2003


Everyone can see Witty doesn't seriously use those terms, right?

Is that sarcasm? Only it's getting difficult to tell...
posted by inpHilltr8r at 4:39 PM on April 21, 2003


I do have to agree with inpHilltr8r. When someone shows pictures of pissing elephants, its meant to shock. When another posts racial slurs, its meant to offend. Both may be sarcasm, but ... its getting damn difficult to tell.
posted by Wulfgar! at 4:47 PM on April 21, 2003


Ok, not a room at home with the Lenny Bruce strategy. Fair enough.
posted by dgaicun at 4:49 PM on April 21, 2003


What I said Wulfgar! wasn't a question. It certainly wasn't there for you to twist around in an effort to justify your assumptions about me either.

Witty, since you seem to have missed it, I too was being completely over-the-top with my little tale of your possible racists beliefs.

Haha... riiiiight.

Whatever did you think I meant?

Not that. Nor did you. Hogwash. Show me a picture of a redneck... please.
posted by Witty at 5:00 PM on April 21, 2003


Now playing--Witty II: The Victim.
posted by y2karl at 5:09 PM on April 21, 2003


It's not the words that are racist, it's the context. The word "nigger" isn't inherently evil, it's the cross-burning, loud-mouthed KKK member who's racist. There's a distinction you people are failing to make here. The fact I just used "nigger" in this sentence (twice, I might add) doesn't mean I'll be bleaching my robes tonight -- or any other night.

Pardon my strong language, but why are so many of you such fucking pussies? Forget it, I don't even want to know... Just get over yourselves and lighten up. Or write a long essay which I probably won't read.

There's my 2¢. I'm not looking to change any minds; just add my insight. Thank you, goodnight.
posted by Dark Messiah at 5:14 PM on April 21, 2003


Frankie says relax.

Good advice. Did anyone really believe that he was at all serious? I mean, really believe it? Since when was MeFi so PC that we can not even poke a little fun at ourselves without someone getting all hot under the collar?
posted by dg at 5:17 PM on April 21, 2003


Wulfgar!, you forgot something important. Rednecks are white. Poor (usually) and considered uneducated too, certainly not the rarified elite you exist in.

Of course, you're not referring to all white people, just the ones who were stupid enough to be born poor and in an uneducated environment, with little access to health-care or most any opportunities whatsoever. I mean, there's no trash worse than white trash, right?

Get back to us when you remove the mote from your eye, partner.
posted by Snyder at 5:17 PM on April 21, 2003


I ask you, what did you mean by redneck anyway?

What I said Wulfgar! wasn't a question.


WTF? It wasn't? You mean I misinterpreted you because you weren't clear and ended your interogative with a question mark?

On preview: Snyder, I said what I meant, to both Witty's question and the quote from which it stemmed. If you wish to re-interpret to suit your own bias, feel free, but your on your own with no support from anything I've said. Sorry.
posted by Wulfgar! at 5:23 PM on April 21, 2003


I guess I'm a fucking pussy then, as I can't think of a use for the word 'nigger' that doesn't have racist overtones to it.
posted by Space Coyote at 5:25 PM on April 21, 2003


mathowie: I'm sorry, but I could believe he seriously uses those terms. He has admitted doing so for shock value. He has made public his views of using humor many consider racist. Some may find him funny. Some may find it a sign of racist views. (I'm with TMBG: "Can't shake the devil's hand And say you're only kidding")

Still, even if he is a racist, so what? The bigger issue, I believe, is using metatalk to complain about someone's views based on his/her posts.

If we were standing around discussing women breastfeeding in Texas and witty made that comment some would laugh and some would say "not funny" and someone would leave. Wouldn't it be easier if we did the same on MeFi? Just make your comment on the thread and move on.

As sure as shit witty is going to write "n*****" again. Will we come here each time he does?
posted by ?! at 5:28 PM on April 21, 2003


dark messiah: No, words aren't inherently evil. (Though you could make a case for evil.) However, the connotation of that word has a history and a punch. Maybe you don't feel it when you see or hear it, but many do.
posted by ?! at 5:31 PM on April 21, 2003


PC elitists!

weird, I was under the impression that MeFi is a place for Mac elitists, isn't it?
posted by matteo at 5:40 PM on April 21, 2003


I may be defending myself (as would anyone)

Actually, no. Some people would have the balls to admit they blew it and apologize.

We're all intelligent people, right? Everyone can see Witty doesn't seriously use those terms, right?

No, and no.
posted by languagehat at 5:42 PM on April 21, 2003


We have now reached the point where every goon with a grievance, every bitter bigot, merely has to place the prefix, 'I know this is not politically correct, but...' in front of the usual string of insults in order to be not just safe from criticism, but actually a card, a lad, even a hero.

Conversely, to talk about poverty and inequality, to draw attention to the reality that discrimination and injustice are still facts of life, is to commit the sin of political correctness. Anti-PC has become the latest cover for creeps. It is a godsend for every curmudgeon and crank, from fascists to the merely smug.


Finian O'Toole
The Irish Times
May 5, 1995
posted by y2karl at 5:52 PM on April 21, 2003


We're all intelligent people, right? Everyone can see Witty doesn't seriously use those terms, right?

The Trent Lott Defense didn't even work for Trent Lott.
posted by Opus Dark at 5:55 PM on April 21, 2003


*waits for Witty to make embarrassing appearance on BET to publicly express his support of affirmative action*
posted by matteo at 6:00 PM on April 21, 2003


We're all intelligent people, right? Everyone can see Witty doesn't seriously use those terms, right?

Witty didn't even really say that much.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 6:11 PM on April 21, 2003


(a young Descartes goes into a hotel, the counter man is Bob Newhart)

Rene:"Cogito Ergo Sum"

BoB: "right"

Rene: "the room key would exist without my existence"

Bob: (hands room key) " room 7, second floor."

Rene: "You see, everything exists despite my existence"

Bob "a...and your going to take my word for it?
posted by clavdivs at 6:12 PM on April 21, 2003


Where's the controversy?

Good question. I read it as an absolutely ridiculous response to an absolutely ridiculous and off topic question.
posted by hama7 at 6:13 PM on April 21, 2003


What I said: And I have no problem admitting that I have "issues" with race. But I assure you they aren't based on the color of someone's skin (if that makes any sense).

What you said: Makes perfect sense. 'Been listening to it for years. My ex-father-in-law was such an upstanding citizen. He had no problem with black people, unless they acted all urban and funky and important. etc. etc.

What I said: Don't presume to know from where my issues come. You don't know me any better than I know you.

What you said: I don't know nor do I care if you believe as my ex-father-in-law. What you said left the question open, and yet its somehow our failing that we didn't get your intent ... exactly as you didn't get mine.

What I said: What I said Wulfgar! wasn't a question. It certainly wasn't there for you to twist around in an effort to justify your assumptions about me either.

What you said: WTF? It wasn't? You mean I misinterpreted you because you weren't clear and ended your interogative with a question mark?

Nope... there was no question mark.

Think next time, will you?

Anyway. I appreciate the chance to defend myself. I can see that no matter what I have to say, I'm as guilty as Scott Peterson. But at least I can say, "I was called out on MetaTalk and all I got was this lousy..."
I'm a survivor.

Anyway, I need to go clean my rifle and feed the dogs. Peace!
posted by Witty at 6:20 PM on April 21, 2003


I do have to agree with inpHilltr8r.

"Don't say that you agree with me. When People agree with me I always feel that I must be wrong."

Oscar Wilde
posted by inpHilltr8r at 6:28 PM on April 21, 2003


.
posted by thatweirdguy2 at 6:29 PM on April 21, 2003


Wulfgar!, then what you are doing is redefining a word that's established in the American lexicon as a descriptor unique to white people. I mean, I can define nigger as someone who refuses to take personal responsibility for themselves, is self-destructive, and deliberately wallows in a self-aggrandizing ignorance, and not actually mention a particular race or race in general, but it does not magically not make it a racial epithet, and remove all it's baggage. Regardless of how one chooses to personally define a particular word, when it is used as direct descriptor, it brings with it certain connotations of it's user.

I admit to a bias, but I don't see how I'm doing any reintegrating.
posted by Snyder at 6:36 PM on April 21, 2003


Wulfgar!, then what you are doing is redefining a word that's established in the American lexicon as a descriptor unique to white people. I mean, I can define nigger as someone who refuses to take personal responsibility for themselves, is self-destructive, and deliberately wallows in a self-aggrandizing ignorance, and not actually mention a particular race or race in general, but it does not magically not make it a racial epithet, and remove all it's baggage. Regardless of how one chooses to personally define a particular word, when it is used as direct descriptor, it brings with it certain connotations of it's user.

I admit to a bias, but I don't see how I'm doing any reinterpreting.
posted by Snyder at 6:36 PM on April 21, 2003


Misuse of irony on internet, considered ironic.

Film at 11.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 6:37 PM on April 21, 2003


So good, I had to say it twice! (Badly)
posted by Snyder at 6:37 PM on April 21, 2003


"you're so ugly! lalalala.
you're so ugly! lalalala."
posted by poopy at 6:42 PM on April 21, 2003


I would submit that if blacks can call each other n*****, whites can call each other 'redneck'.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:44 PM on April 21, 2003


fo shizzle, mah nizzle.
posted by quonsar at 6:52 PM on April 21, 2003


I would submit that if blacks can call each other n*****, whites can call each other 'redneck'.

I actually prefer "Bleachbloods," it just has a nice ring to it.

Race is a sticky issue in American culture, an issue we may never resolve. I don't know how to address this anymore then anyone else, but I'd proffer that wity was just making a stupid and inappropriate joke. It's possible he's racist, it's possible he's not. It's even possible that the people reacting to his use of certain words and phrases have larger race issues that they are loath to be reminded of. I think we should all just relax, unclench, and let the trolls roll right on past.
posted by elwoodwiles at 7:24 PM on April 21, 2003


I would submit that if blacks can call each other n*****, whites can call each other 'redneck'.

Your not the first person to say so, his eminence Jim Goad posited the same thing in this book among other things.
posted by jonmc at 7:30 PM on April 21, 2003


n*****filter
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 7:33 PM on April 21, 2003


I grew up in a house where I had to listen to screaming rants about the niggers and how Hitler had the right idea about the Jews nearly every other day, myself. I went to high school where, on the day John F. Kennedy was assassinated, I heard one peer tell another, Well, he can't go to heaven because he's a Catholic, you know. I guess that I have issues.
posted by y2karl at 7:38 PM on April 21, 2003


Just for the record, I think Jim Goad is the lowest form of humanity I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. /ot
posted by elwoodwiles at 7:53 PM on April 21, 2003


As a bit of an aside, the race issue in American culture is very closely related to the ethnic problems I've seen in other countries... Ask a Hungarian about the Gypsies and you'll get a vitriolic response on par with anything your granddaddy may have said about the blacks. If anything, we're maybe a leg up, being ll self-conscious about the thing rather than, say, carrying a newspaper to whack the Gyspsy children with. (Which is, from what I understand, common practice in Italy.)
posted by kaibutsu at 7:57 PM on April 21, 2003


There are just some words that are tainted. The "N" word is certainly the best example.

I remember as a small child being berated for not doing a task up to a parent's standard-being told I'd done a "n****r" job. Even at the tender age of four or five I just couldn't understand why a person could be considered bad or incapable simply for having a particular skin color...if the pain and rage I felt were even a tenth of what an African American felt upon hearing that word, saying it should be a capital offense. To this day, that word is like a punch to my guts.
posted by konolia at 8:02 PM on April 21, 2003


I guess I'm a fucking pussy then, as I can't think of a use for the word 'nigger' that doesn't have racist overtones to it.

So, your sentence there is racist, then? Cuz you used it.
posted by rushmc at 8:28 PM on April 21, 2003


(and we won't even get into your use of sexist language...)
posted by rushmc at 8:29 PM on April 21, 2003


Snyder, you got me. Because I used the word "Redneck", I'm bigoted against po' white folk. even though I explained what I mean, its not valid cause I'm just covering for my deep seated anger at poor white trash.

Redneck is a caricature for stupid Americana. If I should be held accountable for its use, because of its historic derisive overtones, than wouldn't you admit that Witty really fucked up with his characterizations, or is that somehow forgivable because it was just simple sarcasm?

Regardless of how one chooses to personally define a particular word, when it is used as direct descriptor, it brings with it certain connotations of it's user.


Gotcha in a paradox, my friend. Open the door and they walk right in ...
posted by Wulfgar! at 8:40 PM on April 21, 2003


Wouldn't it be easier if we did the same on MeFi? Just make your comment on the thread and move on.

Actually, one of MeTa's original purposes was precisely to remove this sort of thing from MeFi proper. It's just that it no longer appears to be possible to discuss things here without everyone screaming past each other.

(Is it so hard to understand that some people find certain words offensive, even when used sarcastically?

(And is it so hard to say that you find certain words offensive, without jumping all over a person whose intentions you just might possibly have not quite understood?)
posted by mattpfeff at 8:44 PM on April 21, 2003


Sarcasm is too often attached to outright rude things. You don't hide shit by calling it carpet. That said, rude things are still part of free speech. Sorry guys, deal with it.
posted by Dark Messiah at 9:23 PM on April 21, 2003


Funny, I thought we were dealing with it. In this very thread in fact :)
posted by Space Coyote at 9:34 PM on April 21, 2003


I would submit that if blacks can call each other n*****, whites can call each other 'redneck'

People can, and will, call anyone anything they feel like. It can be used deliberately to hurt and it can be used as a term of association with peers. What this statement has shown is the root of this entire issue: it's not the word, it's the people you say it to.

George Carlin got away with saying the very words Witty said in a routine because he delivered them in a way that irrefutably emphasized his point of their use to the audience. Clearly, Witty has not done this. Clearly, there are many here who will find certain words offensive no matter what context in which they are used.

This leads to two possible situations, and I know the first from experience: either A. Witty refuses to accept that he said something grossly open to misinterpretation and offense from other members, and instead of simply making a comment explaining what he meant to say and he's sorry for the confusion he continues to dig himself deeper into a hole of self-righteous indignance, or B. the entire collective whole of MetaFilter with the exception of Witty and possibly Wulfgar! is completely over-reacting.

With nearly, what, four years of comments in this site's history, which one is more likely to be defended by the majority of people here?

Witty, I for one at no point thought you were a racist. I did however think you said something that many could have interpreted as racist, and guess what- that's exactly what happened. Your failure to acknowledge this immediately is why everyone's now covered in rhetorical poo.

On the other side, you must keep in mind that many of you have essentially called Witty a racist. If you think calling someone a racist name is offensive, explain how someone should NOT be offended by accusations of promotion those actions. Hopefully this can die down so we can all just go back to calling people plain old assholes again.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:35 PM on April 21, 2003


No need. Dave Winer has taken it upon himself to call everyone names.
posted by jaden at 9:48 PM on April 21, 2003


Matt says Frankie says relax.

Hildago says Matt says Frankie says relax.
posted by Hildago at 10:50 PM on April 21, 2003


Damn. Does that mean I can no longer randomly quote Ice Cube when the mood strikes? This is outrageous. Outrageous!

Give me a black goddess sister. I can't resist her. No stringy-haired, blonde-haired, blue-eyed, pale-skinned, buttermilk-complexion, graftive, recessive, depressive, ironing-board backside straight up and straight down, no frill no thrills, Miss Six O'Clock, subject to have the itch, mutanoid, caucasoid, white cave bitch.

Farewell, absurd gangsta-rap lyrics that I'm only posting as an absurd, sarcastic, unapologetically pointless comment designed only to prove that I spent much of my early youth memorizing hip-hop lyrics. You have served me well, old friend.

Disclaimer: the preceding quote was absurd, sarcastic, and unapologetically pointless.
posted by The God Complex at 4:16 AM on April 22, 2003


XQUZYPHYR: "If you think calling someone a racist name is offensive, explain how someone should NOT be offended by accusations of promotion those actions. "

OK, it's early but I think I can parse that sentence. Of course, this is a personal explanation. Let me make sure I have the correct situation first...

Given I believe certain words have racist connotations. Given I find such words offensive. Person X uses a commonly held racist name. I find the act offensive. I tell Person X I find the act offensive. Person X repeats use of said racist term. I tell Person X I believe the repeated action of using said racist term is an indicator of his racist world view.

Person X uses racist terms to make a judgment on a segment of society. My calling Person X a racist would be based on his actions. I wouldn't pass judgement on all those like him...simply him. I ask you -- how could he be offended by my description of his actions?

Of course, others may not agree with my givens. That's why I try to point out all this is personal and subjective.
posted by ?! at 5:56 AM on April 22, 2003


That's it. You all know I'm not a racist (check my comment history). But I'm remembering this thread and I'm going to use those words in a comment one day. I'll probably be more successfull at communicating my non-hate with them, but let's see...

I expect to have my ass hauled in here and have 100 comments posted about it. If you don't I'm calling all the y2karl supporters here userist (there's a new word).

Why can't you all just chill out? They're only words! It isn't like witty goes out nightly and beats up people of other races. It isn't like witty denys jobs to people of other race, or denys them anything else.

If the worst this someone has to worry about is that someone else might say a racist word about them, I put it to you that the world is a much nicer place than you all think it is.
posted by shepd at 6:41 AM on April 22, 2003


Words are like weapons: the important part is what you load them with and where you point them.
posted by walrus at 7:06 AM on April 22, 2003


While were on the subject also read these MetaThreads: $bling and $bling

And there is always the last round of racial epithet related semiotics here on MetaTalk:

Can we say 'nigger' on MetaFilter?

Oh, and everybody take it easy on y2karl - his parents were Nazis.
posted by dgaicun at 7:13 AM on April 22, 2003


It isn't like witty goes out nightly and beats up people of other races. It isn't like witty denys jobs to people of other race, or denys them anything else.

Well, it's not like I'm going out nightly to beat up your mom and her friends or deny them jobs, but that doesn't give me the right to call them filthy nasty names, does it?
posted by Ufez Jones at 7:17 AM on April 22, 2003


They're only words! It isn't like witty goes out nightly and beats up people of other races. It isn't like witty denys jobs to people of other race, or denys them anything else.

I expect you're right about that. But because of the nature of Metafilter, words are the only way in which most of us know each other. As such, they take on greater significance than they might if they were merely part of our knowledge of the people around us.
posted by hippugeek at 7:33 AM on April 22, 2003


i banged my leg with a hammer. see my knee grow?
posted by quonsar at 8:05 AM on April 22, 2003


it's not like I'm going out nightly to beat up your mom and her friends

My mom goes out nightly to beat up you and your friends. So shut up, the lot o' youse.
posted by Shane at 8:24 AM on April 22, 2003


Ufez, there's a difference between calling my mom a name, and calling a race a name.

One is libel (or slander), the other is mere defamation.

The reason we make the distinction is that lying about one person can ruin their reputation, but saying "Because you're white you must be a cracka" about me isn't going to do squat. And if it does, there's a lot more racist people out there than I must know about.

See! I just said a racial slur! CALL THE MEFI POLICE ON ME before I racially slur again!
posted by shepd at 8:33 AM on April 22, 2003


On one hand, there is the educational link:
Nigger and Caricatures.
The Mighty N-Word by Earl Ofari Hutchinson.
The Connection - Randall Kennedy, the author of Nigger, talks about the boundaries that culture—and language—should and shouldn't have...

Then there is humor.
How about sarcastically linking to racist joke sites?
Here's one: Why do jews have big noses? Air is free.
I provide this, of course, as an educational link.

No one has any problem with using AIDs spreading pussylickers, carpetmunchers, cocksuckers, fudgepackers or child molesters for lesbians and gays--as long as it's done sarcastically here, of course? You know, like dgaicun is a pin dicked little cocksucker who's a shit for brains expert on the topic of race in his own mind? Then we ought to be able to link porn sites sarcastically, right? Intelligent people--even teenage virginal shepd, who's a mere infected anal butt hair next to a pimple on the MeFi ass--ought to be able to tell the difference. Hey, maybe I'm kidding, shep! Lighten up!

Ironic use of the word Cunt is OK then?

Are we all OK with us calling women cunts sarcastically? They're only words! It's not like I go out each night and park my humvee in Shane's mom's cunt, now is it? It's like dg wrote: Since when was MeFi so PC that we can not even poke a little fun at ourselves without someone getting all hot under the collar? Maybe dg, dgaicun, Shane or shepd can make a spirited defense of the right to call women cunts--how about it guys?
What exactly is the difference between using cunt and nigger here?
posted by y2karl at 9:17 AM on April 22, 2003


My mom goes out nightly to beat up you and your friends.

...and we pay good money for it too!
posted by inpHilltr8r at 9:19 AM on April 22, 2003


Ironic use of the word Cunt is OK then?
posted by inpHilltr8r at 9:20 AM on April 22, 2003


y2karl said: "Maybe dg, dgaicun, Shane or shepd can make a spirited defense of the right to call women cunts--how about it guys?
What exactly is the difference between using cunt and nigger here?"


Karl also said: "It's not like I go out each night and park my humvee in Shane's mom's cunt"

To summarize: It's not ok to use certain words in any context....unless that context is to deomonstrate why it's not ok to use certain words in any context...unless that context is to demonstrate why....(repeat loop forever)
posted by dgaicun at 10:12 AM on April 22, 2003


Not that. Nor did you. Hogwash. Show me a picture of a redneck... please.

with us calling women cunts sarcastically


Ma, get the bar of soap...dang kids at Meta-Filter won't drop it. Give credit to a foul word and it's used for slang. Said it before about a redneck; drive a truck, have skin pigment absent of color and you have a redneck, unless you tinted your back window.

Ps, many of the comments above reminded me of my life growing up and why I found the definition of words to ring true not the slang that ranged my bell as a child.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:14 AM on April 22, 2003


It's not like I go out each night and park my humvee...

Yours is a humvee? Mine's more of a Corolla. But I drive skillfully.

Let's drop this bullshit and move on to the next bullshit.
posted by Shane at 10:27 AM on April 22, 2003


Metatalk: Let's drop this bullshit and move on to the next bullshit.
posted by Cyrano at 10:38 AM on April 22, 2003


What this statement has shown is the root of this entire issue: it's not the word, it's the people you say it to.

Right. I said it to a large collective of faceless folk in a virtual world... for ALL to read. Is this crowd somehow different from the audience at a Carlin show (to use your example)?

George Carlin got away with saying the very words Witty said in a routine because he delivered them in a way that irrefutably emphasized his point of their use to the audience. Clearly, Witty has not done this.

In your opinion perhaps. I certainly won't claim to even approach the talent of said Carlin. But I can see him saying something just as absurd in his routine.

Witty refuses to accept that he said something grossly open to misinterpretation and offense from other members...

Yea... and so what? Anything anybody says on this site is "grossly open to misinterpretation". I knew that some people here wouldn't get what I meant. But I don't care about them. I can't make everyone understand, much less agree. I don't even try. And I shouldn't have to.

...and instead of simply making a comment explaining what he meant to say...

What? I did explain what I meant. I should say, I explained the point of comment, from where it stemmed. But I shouldn't have to reiterate anything for anyone. If that were the case, I'd be asking quonsar for an explanation on just about every other comment from that guy/gal.

...and he's sorry for the confusion...

I'm sorry for the confusion. But I'm not sorry for posting it.

...he continues to dig himself deeper into a hole of self-righteous indignance.

Again... your opinion. I don't feel deeper in any hole. What you call "self-righteous indignance", I call defending myself with a refusal to feel guilt for making a saracastic comment that SOME people didn't get. You're expecting something from me that I just don't agree I should provide.

I get offended by things people say on this site all the time. But I don't expect anyone to apologize for it.

With nearly, what, four years of comments in this site's history, which one is more likely to be defended by the majority of people here?

What's the point of that? I'm not stupid enough to believe that my existence on this site is any more important than the existance of the site as a whole. I'm not even trying to challenge it.

Witty, I for one at no point thought you were a racist. I did however think you said something that many could have interpreted as racist, and guess what- that's exactly what happened. Your failure to acknowledge this immediately is why everyone's now covered in rhetorical poo.

Why? Seriously, why? I read racist SHITE on this site all the time. Just because the words I chose were so much more blatantly racist terms make no difference.

I don't care if you don't believe me that I was being sarcastic (regardless of the level of absurdity). I don't care if some people were offended... I knew they would be. I'm not here to baby them though life, by pampering my choice of words I post on this site. Yes, I would expect to be punished if I made an obvious attempt to single out a certain ethnic group of people or race, ON THIS SITE, and called them a 'bad word' directly. But this isn't what I did. But I HAVE seen it done, and I'll be sure to point it out next time (probably not actually). It's just a case of being way too fucking touchy and over-sensitive.

You can believe that I'm a racist, you can even call me one. But I don't need to prove to anyone that I'm not this or not that in order to feel some sort of acceptance or comfort.

For reference purposes, here is a piece of a comment I made in the original man in the tractor thread:

'Course a bullet through the eye would allow the bomb squad people to move and assess the situation and get this over with, but I don't want to alarm anyone.

So as you can see, I'm for the equal shooting of all the jackasses that eff-up and endanger the city for 5 days or so, regardless of race.

And Wulfgar!. Please. If you expect us to believe that you don't associate the term redneck with white people... pppffft. Ok.
posted by Witty at 10:38 AM on April 22, 2003


I said it to a large collective of faceless folk in a virtual world... for ALL to read. Is this crowd somehow different from the audience at a Carlin show (to use your example)?

Those people paid to see Carlin, and expected comedy.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 10:50 AM on April 22, 2003


I see. You have the right to say what you wish, and interpret the meaning for yourself, and if anybody else doesn't get that, well that's their problem, right? What a rugged individualist you are.

Kinda' makes me wonder why you then turn around and hide in the pack with this statement:

If you expect us to believe that you don't associate the term redneck with white people...

Did you ever concider that I called you out in this thread not because I think you're a racist, but because you're a blatent and rather foolish hypocrite?
posted by Wulfgar! at 10:50 AM on April 22, 2003


>Intelligent people--even teenage virginal shepd, who's a mere infected anal butt hair next to a pimple on the MeFi ass--ought to be able to tell the difference. Hey, maybe I'm kidding, shep! Lighten up!

Actually, y2karl, I did laugh at that. I don't get much worked up about personal insults from most people anymore (unless they're doing it anonymously -- that shows a lack of honour). I did at one time and eventually I realised it's a complete waste of time.

On a side note someone from my middle school who I positively hated, even after school, in fact, all the way until yesterday, died suddenly this weekend. When I read the obits yesterday it simply helped put into concrete my opinion that hate is a wasted emotion. All the years I wanted to pound that jerk into sand and now it was all a waste of effort. If anything I feel like a heel now.

Back onto the topic, y2karl asked this:

Maybe dg, dgaicun, Shane or shepd can make a spirited defense of the right to call women cunts--how about it guys?

No problem. I would rather see people for their true colour rather than have them hide behind a forced mask of love. Oh, and there's the whole "I might not agree with what you say, but I'd die fighting for your right to say it" thing.

Metafilter is pretty much a public forum, with a few noteworth exceptions. People have the right to say what they want. Y2karl has the right to complain about it. But haranguing a man in public for a single comment that you felt was insulting is a little much, IMHO. If you had more evidence (say 2 or 3 similar comments this month) I could understand it. But one?

Like I said, please, chill out.
posted by shepd at 10:56 AM on April 22, 2003


Those people paid to see Carlin, and expected comedy.

And?

Wulfgar! I really don't care what you think.

Us refers to the few other people in this thread that have made mention of the fact that you left out that vital piece of data in your laughable description of redneck. I'm not trying to hide from anything. If I was, I wouldn't even be responding to this post.

I see. You have the right to say what you wish, and interpret the meaning for yourself, and if anybody else doesn't get that, well that's their problem, right? What a rugged individualist you are.

The point is, if I were trying to teach you how to build a clock, I would find obvious purpose in making sure my points were very clear. I wouldn't use sarcasm as a tool for doing so. Also, "How to build a clock" doesn't come with preconceived assumptions about the person like racial issues might. So I wouldn't be necessarily starting from the bottom of the mountain, like I am on this issue.

I could try to explain my point 'til I'm blue in the face to everyone and it wouldn't make any difference. There are people that are just plain 'ole offended because of the words I used and the absurdity of what it said. For them, the deal is done. There's nothing for me to prove in their eyes. Fine. But that's why I don't feel I need to waste my time trying to convince them otherwise.
posted by Witty at 11:07 AM on April 22, 2003


Those people paid to see Carlin, and expected comedy.

Whereas people expect free comedy here.
posted by timeistight at 11:22 AM on April 22, 2003


I guess you get what you pay for then :)
posted by Space Coyote at 11:34 AM on April 22, 2003


I have "issues" with race. But I assure you they aren't based on the color of someone's skin


You hate NASCAR too?
posted by Mick at 11:41 AM on April 22, 2003


Aren't you c*nting f*ckn*ggers done yet?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 11:42 AM on April 22, 2003


the words I chose were so much more blatantly racist terms make no difference

I could try to explain my point 'til I'm blue in the face to everyone and it wouldn't make any difference. There are people that are just plain 'ole offended because of the words I used and the absurdity of what it said

You're writing online. We don't know you. All we have to go on is your words. If what you give us is racist language, sarcasm, and little clarification or apology, what are we supposed to think?

For the record, I thought your humor was in bad taste, but not really objectionable. Still, it led me to draw conclusions about you, conclusions you may or may not agree with or like. If you're satisfied with the conclusions people are drawing based on the only input they have from you, then okay. If you're not, you might want to consider where their conclusions came from.
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 11:52 AM on April 22, 2003


Ok... what am I supposed to say? I said it was sarcasm; that's not good enough. I admitted that it was offensive to some and apologized for the confusion I caused. I admitted that I have issues with race, but that I'm not racist at the core. There is little more I can do satisfy any questions people may still have about me and conclusions they've already made. But I'm not losing sleep over it.

My comment may have been in bad taste, might have been offensive. It wasn't supposed to be anything else really... certainly not funny.

But if it helps, here was my train of thought:

Gottabefunky made a statement that, TO ME, made the assumption that the entire National Park Service and D.C. Police Departments were racists. I find that to be totally off-base, off-topic (as far as the thread was concerned), totally absurd, and ignorant. I also found it offensive because it was just another example of a jab at white folks, that would probably just float on by because there is often an attitude that somehow we have it coming (I'm white... surprise).

I would never be able to get away with saying something like, "I bet he got that job because he's black"... or something similar. There would be plenty of people here that would have proudly stepped right in and pounced all over that. Well, I chose to do the same thing. I may have done it differently that you would have, but that's what I did.

I chose to respond to his absurdity by one-upping him/her. I chose to follow his lead that both departments were indeed racist... not only that, but that they actually determine "when to shoot" by referring to a scale. Since they are racists, it wouldn't make sense to lable the scale with terms like African-Americans, Arabs, etc. That's why I chose the words I did... it made more sense in context.

I added the "Anyway..." as a sign of my sarcasm and as an attempt to brush off that whole notion that gottabefunky started. It was supposed to mean something along the lines of "Now back to a regularly scheduled program" or whatever.

There you have it. Agree, don't agree. Understand, don't understand. It doesn't matter at this point. But that's what my comment was all about. I hope it satisfies some of your concerns and notions about me or about "Witty".
posted by Witty at 1:19 PM on April 22, 2003


I haven't seen the MeFi ThoughtPolice this riled up in quite some time... Good God, Witty, you've even got them shooting at each other now! And for what it's worth, I respect your refusal to bow down and beg the forgiveness of the Enraged Villagers Brandishing Torches and Shouting Kill The Monster! at the Castle Gates(tm) who would subjugate you to their Collective Wisdom.

</IRONIC_DETACHMENT=RESUME>
posted by JollyWanker at 1:29 PM on April 22, 2003


Here's a thought, Witty. What would have been wrong with posting per your name, and cleverly pointing out that someone else was using reverse racism, rather than screaming "look at me" with your slurs? It would have made your point, without the martyrdom complex you seem to be embracing.

Face it, slick, you set yourself up for this, and then had difficulty dealing with the flood of response. If your intent is to start a fire with napalm, don't be so surprised when it gets out of control. (FYI, in many circles that might be called "Trolling". I'm rather surprised that no one has brought that up here before.) For what its worth, you can take me at my word: I never assumed you were racist, nor do I care if you are. I just thought you might need an education concerning blaming everyone else for your mistake, as JollyWanker just did ...

By the way, I keep looking here for your apology and I'm just not finding it. Care to provide a link?
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:40 PM on April 22, 2003


Ironic use of the word "cunt" is ok in my books. Of course, my books are actually a enormous back-catalogue of Jenna Jameson magazines, as well as all her videos, dvds, and four blow-up dolls.

Actually, I think there's a difference between using something ironically and using irony as a veil to hide behind. I'm sure there are a myriad of ironic and funny ways to call somebody a cunt. I just haven't thought of them yet.

Can I still tell people they look like a taint? If not, go toss a salad, pinko.
posted by The God Complex at 2:46 PM on April 22, 2003


Here's a thought, Witty. What would have been wrong with posting per your name, and cleverly pointing out that someone else was using reverse racism, rather than screaming "look at me" with your slurs?

A. I'm not you.
B. What the fuck is reverse racism.

Face it, slick, you set yourself up for this, and then had difficulty dealing with the flood of response.

Set myself up for what? A metatalk thread? So what. The only difficulty I'm having is getting you to back the fuck off. I can't give you anymore than I already have. Accept it or don't.

If your intent is to start a fire with napalm, don't be so surprised when it gets out of control.

What's out of control? You seem to be living this issue out in some kind of fantasy world or something. I'm in perfect controls of my thoughts and feelings on this... so, it seems, does everyone else.

I just thought you might need an education concerning blaming everyone else for your mistake, as JollyWanker just did...

Yea, ok. Don't do me any favors please. Thank you. I haven't blamed anyone for anything. To me, there is nothing to blame anyone for. I don't blame anyone for "not getting it"... like I said, I don't care if they got it or not. The people who did are the ones I was targeting.

May I return to my seat now?

I'll let you have the last word. Go.
posted by Witty at 2:59 PM on April 22, 2003


Wulfgar!:I see. You have the right to say what you wish, and interpret the meaning for yourself, and if anybody else doesn't get that, well that's their problem, right? What a rugged individualist you are.

Do you realize what you just said? That is, in a nutshell, the same exact rationalization you had for your idiosyncratic definition of redneck. (The horror! They like reality TV! Don't think on it, lest you get the vapors.)

I suppose it's perfectly fine for you to have your own stereotypes and racial epithets, you being so cool and liberal and all, but you get to wring your hands and scream from the rooftops if someone else says a naughty word you disapprove of?

Gotcha in a paradox, my friend. Open the door and they walk right in ...


Did you ever concider that I called you out in this thread not because I think you're a racist, but because you're a blatant and rather foolish hypocrite?

Talking to yourself? Because I couldn't of said it better.

Personally, I couldn't give a shit if Witty is racist or not, at least in this context, because if he is, he's of some super-cyrpto variety that I've never even conceived of before. I understood that he was using those epithets to make a point about something else, not to denigrate non- caucasians, but if some people didn't, fair enough. He apologized for the miscommunication, which should be enough. It could've also been ham-handed or confusing, but I noticed we don't usually call out a post for being ham-handed or confusing. In your case, Wulfgar!, the fact that Witty just typed the un-Wulfgar!-approved words is enough for a pillorying. However, you see no problem using epithets like redneck, because they fit your worldview just perfectly. Far as I can see, it's not a matter of principles, it's a matter of ideology.

So fine, go after Witty all you want, just don't pretend it as anything to do with people's feelings or racial justice, but that he simply disagreed with you and you can use the way he said something as ammunition.

On Preview: Wulfgar!, there are people who make entire posting careers of "look at me!" and embracing martyrdom, I mean, fold~and~mutilate for god's sakes. And he ain't the only one. Hell, at least Witty responds. If we're going to be taking people to metatalk for that, is Witty the one we really need to start with?

The God Complex: Good point. I'm not sure if Witty was being ironic or only hiding behind it, but I sure as hell can't tell now, and I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, too. And about the so-called "ironic" (or, more often, perfectly straight) use of the word cunt, as well as other female linked words as insult used by super-leftists who would howl for blood at a racial epithet being used as an insult is a thread in and of itself...but also probably not worth getting into, if threads like this are the result.
posted by Snyder at 3:27 PM on April 22, 2003


I'm sorry for the confusion. But I'm not sorry for posting it.


I apologize to you; I found your apology.
posted by Wulfgar! at 3:42 PM on April 22, 2003


Are we all OK with us calling women cunts sarcastically?
I can't speak for others but, yes, I am OK with any word being used in the appropriate context. I don't use the word myself and, if you are seriously calling a woman that, you can be sure of pissing me off. I don't impose my personal standards on others, except in my own home and I expect no less from others.

What exactly is the difference between using cunt and nigger here?
There is no difference, y2karl - that is the whole point people are trying to drive into your head - it is the context and intent that conveys the true meaning of the words. It is a fine line you tread if you use words knowing they can inflame some people and extreme care should be taken with wording to be sure that you are not misunderstood, but the comment in question (can anyone still remember what it was) was clearly written in jest.

y2karl, you are obviously an intelligent person, judging by the threads you post here and I find it hard to believe that you are really as thick as you seem sometimes. It was a joke, OK? Maybe not the world's best joke, but a joke nonetheless. You may not find it funny, but so what? Move on.
posted by dg at 3:44 PM on April 22, 2003


Snyder, you obviously missed the blatant irony that I myself was pointing out to you. Can you be more obtuse? As you've pointed out, words have connotations. Witty attempted to disregard that. When a word I have used was brought to bear, you attempted to make it about race. I blatantly and thoroughly tongue-in-cheek attempted to redefine it. You called me on it, and I attempted to point out that that is exactly what Witty was doing. You are caught in a paradox of what to support, yes? Are you tracking this yet? Can you please try and keep up?

As for f_and_m, in case you haven't bothered to notice, I took him to task for the very same thing. And its kinda funny, but y2karl used a very similar argument against me that you are now using. If I'm pissing off those to the left of me, and those to the right of me, I must be doing something correctly ... ;-)
posted by Wulfgar! at 4:00 PM on April 22, 2003


Snyder, you obviously missed the blatant irony that I myself was pointing out to you. Can you be more obtuse?

Probably not.

If what you say about your motives is true (and I assume it is,) then I am thoroughly confused. My beef is (was?) that the way you originally used redneck, and Witty's use of spic, nigger, et all were different, and for different purposes.
In my opinion, I felt yours was a more egregious usage, and I felt you calling Witty on his usage was more hypocritical.

I also do not feel that Witty is attempting to redefine those words for his own purposes, however it seemed to me, that you were attempting to do so. If you were trying to illustrate a point, then I apparently missed it, but I still feel your assertion about Witty is incorrect.

In any event, what you say you and I wrote does not entirely jibe with my perceptions, but I believe you are not being disingenuous or manipulating, and I will simply scratch my head and attempt to reconcile our differing views of what happened.

About f_and_M...either I never noticed or forgot. My apologies...and in any event, that statement was linked more in my head in y2karl, although it probably wasn't clear. And, out of curiosity, when did y2karl use this similar argument? Was it this thread? Cause I thought he was agreeing with you here...maybe I need more sleep.
posted by Snyder at 5:16 PM on April 22, 2003


*pauses, turns out lights, exits pushing broom and whistling*
posted by quonsar at 7:48 AM on April 23, 2003


Hey! Who put that light out? Who put that light out!
posted by inpHilltr8r at 10:40 AM on April 23, 2003


hey! where the spam thread go?
posted by sgt.serenity at 2:26 PM on April 23, 2003


What was the spam thread? I skip going to MeTa for one lousy morning and 64 comments disappear into thin air!

Turns on light, still doesn't see spam thread but sees elephant pissing in corner.
posted by languagehat at 2:53 PM on April 23, 2003


It was pretty much a continuation of the Witty-lyching party started here, except that this time we were going to drown him to see if he was a witch.
posted by timeistight at 3:09 PM on April 23, 2003


Damn, I miss all the witch-drownings. But thanks for the info.
posted by languagehat at 5:37 PM on April 23, 2003


Matt says Frankie says relax!
posted by Hildago at 11:28 PM on April 27, 2003


« Older Can we have a list of missing members?   |   Mouseover Madness, Or, The Terrible Title. Newer »

You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments