AgendaFilter

July 7, 2004 10:59 AM

Asparagirl's Israeli Civil War? thread is crap. It's admitted AgendaFilter about a topic that has almost no chance of being discussed civilly, and on top of that she attacks (none too coherently) delmoi for linking to her blog.
posted by Irontom to Etiquette/Policy at 10:59 AM (54 comments total)

Is there some long simmering delmoi/aparagirl feud that I am unaware of? Because her response seems way over the top...
posted by Irontom at 11:01 AM on July 7, 2004

oh, and i thought she was being perfectly coherent. he implied the title of her blog meant something relevant to the discussion, she informed him otherwise. which part confused you?
posted by quonsar at 11:13 AM on July 7, 2004

Doesn't seem much different than most everything else political around here. AgendaFilter is okay as long is it's MyAgendaFilter?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:18 AM on July 7, 2004

Let me get this straight: matteo acts like an ass, attempts to derail the thread, and you're calling out Asparagirl?

Speaking of AgendaFilter...
posted by BlueTrain at 11:22 AM on July 7, 2004

Asparagirl and I are about as diametrically opposed as is posible to be (on this issue) but I think she did her homework on the post, and it's not, actually, squarely in her usual agenda. I see restraint and a genuine effort to bring some internal Israeli issues to light. She didn't punish delmoi, she just reiterated that she'd already outed herself as a big Zionist. If she misinterpreted his link, that's her bad, but hardly punishable by death.

Let it live.
posted by scarabic at 11:25 AM on July 7, 2004

I did'nt think the thread was "crap" at all. I/P discussions are nearly always contentious and this was no exception. It, to me, was the usual politicFilter drivel (which sometimes I love, I have to admit) that contained the usual two or three decent posts in a fog of name-calling and dismissive chatter.

Move on, unclentch, just let it go - this isn't worth a meta thread until there is a clear policy against politics on mefi. (not that I'd want that.)
posted by elwoodwiles at 11:25 AM on July 7, 2004

Is Matt working on a feature so that every single thread in the blue will spawn a thread in the grey? I think that would be a great thing to have around here.
posted by chunking express at 11:28 AM on July 7, 2004

Wait a minute.
Protestations to stop the whole agenda driven NewsFilter crap are ignored by many. Apparently a small number of vocal people feel that agenda-driven NewsFilter is what this site should become.

But that isn't enough. Now you want Asparagirl's Pro-Israel thread deleted because it is Pro-Israel? So it's not enough that we let left-thinking agenda pieces be posted all over the Blue, but now you want a post deleted because it doesn't agree with the LeFi mindset? That is abhorrent and precisely why all of the agenda-driven Newsfilter stuff should be deleted by Matt or moved to another site.

I would like to hear why Aspargirl's thread should be deleted, while the rest of the shit that has been smeared in the blue the last two days doesn't.

- twsf with yet another take on the whole F9/11 Saudi argument
- hoder's Halliburton single source fpp
- bclark's Evil Republican's are Violating Campaign Finance law.
- insomnia's dead troop count
- trout's never-been-discussed-before link to the F9/11 topic

That is, 5 out of the 9 topics on the front page (and we haven't even had our daily lecture from y2karl and Postroad) that all meet the same complaint you levy against Asparagirl. Crap, agenda-driven pieces that have no chance of being discussed civilly (or sharing anything that is the Best of the Web).

So I ask you, why her's? You have no problem with the rest?

I submit that there are only two rational responses: either accept them all or reject them all. I think the effect of this crap clearly suggests we should reject them all. [Well, I suppose you try to argue that we should accept them all assuming they comport with a consensus viewpoint. That would be just so cheeky.]
posted by Seth at 11:30 AM on July 7, 2004

Sure, the If so, will left-wing groups be jealous for not doing the deed first? comment was a troll, but this is news that is highly relevant to the world situation, but not covered much by the mainstream press.

With the Iraq war/occupation/???/PROFIT!!! thing going on, and the Saudi Government apparently proposing a civil war ("We swear by God that nothing will prevent us from striking with our full might" anyone who ignores the offer, Abullah said.), I would like to hear about other destabilized countries from time to time.

on preview: Seth, I think a third possibility is to accept NewsFilter posts, but advocate the reduction of incendiary language. A kind of MeFi journalistic ethics.
posted by Kwantsar at 11:35 AM on July 7, 2004

I interpreted delmoi's comment--which did not link to any one blog article that might be relevant, but just to the title and front page of the blog itself--as saying "hey, look! her blog has the word "Zion" in the title! I guess she's secretly a Zionist or pro-Israel or something! I bet that means she's got a secret bias, which in turn impacts on how we should treat the FPP and its discussion." Whereas my response was trying to say, uh, dude, that's not exactly a secret, check out this very thread itself or my MeFi bio, and on top of that, the blog title is a parody of a fairly-well-known late 19th Century anti-semitic tract.

If I got touchy--and I don't think I was anywhere near as "over the top" as matteo was to me in that same thread--it's because this isn't the first or even third time it's happened on Metafilter that a "response" to a comment I've made has been for someone to just to link to the front page of my blog or its FAQ, with the clear implication that see, we've just "proved" she's a big Republican or pro-Israel meanie, no need to engage in debate here. Again, not that any of those POV's are big secrets.

If I misread delmoi's comment and I was unjustifiably snarky, I'm sorry. And if he/she was just being nice and trying to send traffic my way, then boy, is my face red. Kinda doubt it, though.

As for the post itself, it's no more AgendaFilter than your average MeFi politics-related post. We could all name ten on the front page right now that are far more agressively leaning to one side or another. And I think the discussion in the thread so far has had more courtesy, if not consensus, than your average politics post here. And yet it somehow merits a MetaTalk callout? C'mon. You don't get to yell "AgendaFilter" just over the posts whose perceived agenda or political slant you don't agree with.

(But thanks for popping my MetaTalk Callout cherry anyway. Was it good for you too?)
posted by Asparagirl at 11:38 AM on July 7, 2004

Just for the record, since I'm quite vocal against NewsFilter and have taken swipes at AgendaFilter: I can tolerate both and will agree that both somehow fit within the site's charter as long as the posts aren't just NewsFilter or AgendaFilter. I mean, a post about a news story with several links, some context, some things that we've probably not seen—that's okay to me. Same with AgendaFilter. That's why Karl's posts are marginally acceptable to me—he puts a lot into them. (I admit that coming one right after another, on the same topics, starts to really tilt things in the AgendaFilter getyerownblog direction. But, in isolation, such posts are at least tolerable and sometimes very good.) It's egregious NewsFilter and AgendaFilter that bug me and that I think makes MeFi less MeFi and more like every other community/opinion/politics site out there.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:39 AM on July 7, 2004

OMG - somebody activated Seth. Turn him off, quick!
posted by scarabic at 11:40 AM on July 7, 2004

Um, hey Seth. We agree with you. You can quit bitching now.
posted by jpoulos at 11:41 AM on July 7, 2004

Your absent protests of every daily NYT/WaPo AgendaFilter anti-Bush thread "about a topic that has almost no chance of being discussed civilly" is duly noted, Irontom. Interesting you chose this one particular thread to breathlessly highlight up on the MetaTalk marquee.

It's egregious NewsFilter and AgendaFilter that bug me and that I think makes MeFi less MeFi and more like every other community/opinion/politics site out there.

Exactly. No matter what your politics are, please stop with the ClearChannelification of Metafilter. We have the potential to be something more unique.
posted by dhoyt at 11:47 AM on July 7, 2004

That is abhorrent and precisely why all of the agenda-driven Newsfilter stuff should be deleted by Matt or moved to another site.

No, it's why it shouldn't be deleted.
posted by The God Complex at 11:59 AM on July 7, 2004

I think this thread is crap, Irontom.
posted by loquax at 12:02 PM on July 7, 2004

But it was a nice try at co-opting the situation in order to reiterate your tired, agenda-driven spiel about "newsfilter".
posted by The God Complex at 12:02 PM on July 7, 2004

...they comport with a consensus viewpoint.

Ah, "consensus veiwpoint," the kindler gentler enforced conformity.
posted by jonmc at 12:07 PM on July 7, 2004

Asparagirl's post may not be the greatest ever to grace the front page of MeFi, but it's perfectly OK -- especially compared to some of the pointless crap that's gotten posted here lately, like a link to a Croatian real-estate site. Posted by... oops, it's Irontom, who's calling out Asparagirl! Small world.

a fairly-well-known late 19th Century anti-semitic tract

Small quibble: the Protocols are actually a product of the early 20th century (though they're ripped off from conspiracy fiction, not involving Jews as far as I know, of the 1860s).
posted by languagehat at 12:10 PM on July 7, 2004

We have the potential to be something more unique.

WHICH MAKES US JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE ON THE NET.
posted by quonsar at 12:15 PM on July 7, 2004

MetaFilter: Self-loathing since 1999.
posted by Opus Dark at 12:21 PM on July 7, 2004

Yeah, I was referring to the 1860's Geneva version, which is pretty much the original template, since the twentieth century Russian version takes both its structure and so many chunks of text from it. Link:

"In 1921, The Times of London published three articles written by the newspaper's Constantinople (now Istanbul) correspondent, Philip Graves, which showed that the Protocols had been extensively plagiarized from a book by a French lawyer and writer named Maurice Joly. The book by Joly was called (in French) Dialogues in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu. It was published in Brussels (Belgium) in 1864 (with a Geneva imprint, although the edition I have seen is dated 1868 and has a Brussels imprint). Cohn notes (p 74-5): "In all, over 160 passages in the Protocols, totaling two-fifths of the entire text, are clearly based on passages in Joly; in nine of the chapters the borrowings amount to more than half the text, in some they amount to three-quarters, in one (Protocol VII) to almost the entire text. This should be enough to demonstrate that plagiarism occurred.

There is one very notable difference between the Protocols as put forth by Nilus and the Dialogues as put forth by Joly. In the Dialogues there is no mention of Jews. These Dialogues were a political satire directed at the government of Napoleon III in France, during the Second Empire. Joly was given 15 months in prison by this government for his satirical effort. The author or authors of the Protocols, so far as they were plagiarized from the Dialogues, substituted Jews where Joly had (non-Jewish) members of the government of Napoleon III."

Hmmm, someone should do a FPP on the Protocols (and its recent TV mini-series adaptation) one of these days...
posted by Asparagirl at 12:29 PM on July 7, 2004

heh.

funny how those poor, victimized right-wingers are apparently entitled to smear fecal posts on the Front Page just to teach us all a lesson -- they must feel so scared among the evil liberals...

attack me all you want, ladies (I mean Likudgirl, BlueTrain must be as usual too busy with, one assumes, obsessive haircare to bother with the actual reading of threads). but LikudGirl's "If so, will left-wing groups be jealous for not doing the deed first?" is a steaming, steaming piece of McCarthyite shit of a worldnetdaily-style "editorial" disguised as a comment. and by the way, Yigal Amir was no liberal, as I am sure you recall. so lose the "homicidal left" crap, will ya? (not to mention, fellating Ariel Sharon on one's own personal blog is one thing. to do it on a community weblog is bound to somehow, shall we say, irk somebody in the end)

I stand by my comment in the blue -- the FPP is the final proof of Likudgirl's coming undone in her I/P obsession. at this point she makes Postroad look reasonable (not to mention that even his blog is intellectually deeper -- one does not want to say the word 'stimulating' in this context -- than the Yuppies of Zion thingie).

oh, and Likudgirl -- if you don't like it when users here tell you that your blog suck, grow a thicker skin. or de-link it from your MeFi userpage. or try to put some decent content in it sometime
posted by matteo at 12:35 PM on July 7, 2004

;)
posted by matteo at 12:36 PM on July 7, 2004

(not to mention, fellating Ariel Sharon on one's own personal blog is one thing. to do it on a community weblog is bound to somehow, shall we say, irk somebody in the end)

poof!
that's the last sad tiny shred of matteo's credibility vanishing in the air forever...
posted by loquax at 12:44 PM on July 7, 2004

I pointed out that it was crap when she snapped out at delmoi for having posted, with NO editorial comment at all, a link to her blog with the title she chose for it. If she'd responded that way to matteo, I've have understood it. But, unless there is some feud between her and delmoi that I am unaware of, it shows she has no rationality left on the subject (if indeed she ever had any). For whatever reason, it got under my skin. Clearly, for some, that's not a good enough reason for me to post here. Fine, so be it. Deep breaths and step away from the computer is a lesson I need to learn every now and then.

As far as whether or not I post crap links, nobody's snarling over who's an anti-semite in mine, nor arguing about which political wing is most likely to assassinate my favorite prime minister. I found something interesting/weird/outside my normal experience and thought I'd share it. Sorry if I'm not as well traveled, smart, hip or cool as you languagehat. I'll be sure to check all my "interesting" links with you via email before posting them here.
posted by Irontom at 12:48 PM on July 7, 2004

funny how those poor, victimized right-wingers are apparently entitled to smear fecal posts on the Front Page just to teach us all a lesson -- they must feel so scared among the evil liberals...

Throw up a pathetic straw man, and then knock it out of the park, eh matteo? That's the best you got? Oh, no wait...

BlueTrain must be as usual too busy with, one assumes, obsessive haircare to bother with the actual reading of threads

That's the best you got. A semi-personal attack/poorly executed joke.

grow a thicker skin.

Indeed. You were an asshole, you're continuing to act like one, and you could have ignored both of our comments due to your "thick skin". Instead, you chose to engage and attack further. Huh. Thick skin indeed. More like an excuse to ridicule people under the guise of "over-sensitivity".
posted by BlueTrain at 12:50 PM on July 7, 2004

I think what we see in a lot of political/cultural threads is a confusion between microcosm and macrocosm. In the larger worlds many opinions expressed at MeFi would be considered minority opinions, thus expressing them could be considered brave and non-conformist.

But inside the world of MeFi, where those views constitute the majority viewpoint, not so much. It's kind of a classic cycle, person feeling left out of the majority finds society of like minded people, feels comfortable expressing hitherto unpopular opinions. But as the group grows, the dynamic shifts. People in large groups inevitably feel perfectly comfortable marginalizing or ostracizing viewpoints different from the group norm.

This is not to say that this is some unique MeFi evil or a plot to silence the poor oppressed right wingers. It's merely a natural human tendency. It's merely that educated, sophisticated people pride themselves on being open minded and free thinking, but they are as susceptible to this kind of thinking as anyone, The danger comes in pretending they're not.
posted by jonmc at 1:04 PM on July 7, 2004

grow a thicker skin.

Ah yes, a thicker skin. Like when someone makes the "guinea" slur or "greaseball" slur or whichever incendiary bytes on the screen that sent you leaping from thread to thread and crying like a schoolgirl to anyone who'd listen about how persecuted you were a few months ago, right? Whoever made that slur is obviously the devil incarnate, while you're just being witty when you accuse asparagirl of "fellating" Sharon? Your comments in this thread, and the aforementioned thread, are garbage.
posted by dhoyt at 1:07 PM on July 7, 2004

Given the nature of the topic, and despite my obvious propensity to agree completely with Asparagirl politically, I thought the presentation of the post was not intentionally or overtly biased towared the Left or the Right, politically. If anything, it was pointing out that the Right Wingers are angrily critical of Sharon.

Also, given the nature of the topic, the thread was remarkably civil, with very few regrettable exceptions. The thread might be worthy of a commendation callout for civility, rather than critical of agenda.
posted by hama7 at 1:10 PM on July 7, 2004

Man.

Any post on an I/P related topic is going to be tough, and I think Asparagirl did a fantastic job in presenting some interesting information and handled it almost completely perfectly and delicately (if you ignore the "left would be jealous" slag). I thought the discussion was fairly straightforward and even though folks on both sides have strong opinions it was mostly good (if you ignore matteo in it -- who normally contributes good stuff to a thread but in this case it just seems like personal attacks on Asparagirl).

We should strive to be a place where opposing viewpoints can be shared and where the bitterest rivals would still be likely to have a beer with one another. I don't think that's the case by and large, but this thread in particular was definitely closer to the ideal than any other post about Israel and Palestine in recent memory.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:10 PM on July 7, 2004

I haven't, to my knowledge, agreed with Asparagirl yet on anything of import (yet being the operative term there; I'm optimistic), but I thought she presented a decent (if a little wordy) post, and handled the few attacks on the thread (from delmoi and matteo, with whom I generally agree on these things but was out of line in that thread, for what my opinion's worth) with no small amount of grace.

One other thing. I'm assuming there isn't a "majority opinion" here. I see too many posts covering both ends of pretty much every story, and the back-and-forth, while sometimes weighted in one direction or another, at least covers both bases.

I wouldn't speak either toward or on behalf of any majority, and I wouldn't trust anyone who does.

Also: word up, Matt.
posted by chicobangs at 1:25 PM on July 7, 2004

Indeed, chicobangs. While it's likely that more members lean left, it's not as if all the comments lean left. I think the debate is pretty healthy here, with most people orbiting the center (depending ont he issue) and many with much more documentation backing up their claims than in the average internet watering hole.

No foul here. Though I was confused about the "jealous left" comment. I thought Israeli leftists were the peaceniks in the bunch. Do they assassinate people?
posted by scarabic at 1:56 PM on July 7, 2004

Hear, hear. I didn't even bother reading Asparagirl's FPP till I showed up here, and I've got to say it's hard to understand what all the fuss is about, compared to some of the other stuff that goes on around here.

Regarding the whole NewsFilter thing, I'm not crazy about it, either, but past a certain point you've got to concede that folks here like hashing that stuff out. If nobody responded to NewsFilter posts, then folks wouldn't bother posting them as much, but they get a huge response. I just don't click on them, unless the FPP is well-framed and interesting, and like a lot of folks, I think I'm getting just as tired of the "I HATE NEWSFILTER" stuff as I am of NewsFilter. Just learn to skim.
posted by LairBob at 2:06 PM on July 7, 2004

A new low in MeTalk callouts!
This may just out-anal even E.Blight's rants.

Congratulations, Irontom.
posted by mischief at 2:23 PM on July 7, 2004

I thought it was a great post, despite the fact that I'm a proud member of the Lefty Metafilter Cabal (LMC). I agree that it could have used a little less commentary, but I think that the jumping on Asparagirl's ass was unnecessary and did not really represent the best of MeFi discourse.

FWIW (which is virtually nil), Asparagirl gets the thumbs up from me for a thoughtful post, as well as for trying to immediately squash the anti-Israel = antisemitism bug as soon as it poked its slimy little head out.

Also: Shut up, Seth. Just on principle.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 2:35 PM on July 7, 2004

Apparently a small number of vocal people feel that agenda-driven NewsFilter is what this site should become.

Worrying about what the site should or should not do is a complete waste of time. People have been complaining about the direction of the Metafilter community for years now, as though the idea of "direction" applies in any meaningful way to the brownian motion of a thousand random netters jabbering on about whatever catches their fancy, and it has never made any difference. Nor, I wager, will it ever.

I find the incessant complaints about "newsfilter" far more irritating than the posts themselves. Sometimes I'm tempted to start up an Anti-Anti-Newsfilter campaign - calling out anyone who calls out anyone who makes a plain news post - just as an exercise in self-disproving absurdism, since of course you're not going to listen to me any more than they are listening to you.

Furthermore, while I'm ranting: the conservative folks need to give up the persecution complex already. The "lone republican in a sea of ferocious greens" act might have worked three years ago, but it's just silly these days. People spend almost as much time complaining about Metafilter's putative bias and the effect it supposedly has on political conversation as they do in the conversations themselves. Anyone who thinks Metafilter has a consensus viewpoint needs to pay more attention. The only "left-wing bias" Metafilter has is that people don't make a habit of complaining that Metafilter has a right-wing bias.
posted by Mars Saxman at 3:07 PM on July 7, 2004

lone republican in a sea of ferocious greens

I think you got your colors mixed up.
posted by hama7 at 3:21 PM on July 7, 2004

Lefty Metafilter Cabal (LMC).

LittleMissCranky (LMC).

hrm.
posted by quonsar at 3:23 PM on July 7, 2004

I thought it was a good post and thread, and the personal attacks added flavor.
posted by Ty Webb at 3:48 PM on July 7, 2004

they added flavor to the ferocious greens?

sounds like the beginnings of quite a salad.

I hate salad.
posted by jonmc at 3:51 PM on July 7, 2004

Well, I had a problem with Asparagirl's post.

It was posted by Asparagirl.

Up go the hackles. Is she being disingenuous? Am I being played? Was that a wheedle? Is that a tranquilizer dart? What's with the jaunty, careless language and the light-hearted gossipy tone? Is she patronizing me? Was that a nudge, a push, or a pinch? Am I being manipulated? Was that a sharp piece of personal agenda I saw sticking out through her ingratiating MetaFilter idiolect? I don't know. Maybe. I'm suspicious. I'm skittish. I'm wary.

Which as I've pointed out before is the problem with importing external ego into MetaFilter; people are naturally going to look for artificial ingredients - for waxy bits of crowd-pleasing diplomacy. People hate to be played - they appreciate diplomacy - but they hate to be played. Go figger.

The post wasn't bad (certainly not worth a callout) - but it did feel artificially conversational - kind of like "how 'bout those wacky assassins" - and the "left would be jealous" blurt seemed like a hole in the folksy facade. Probably just me, though. Being wary.

*eyes dart from side to side, scampers into hole*
posted by Opus Dark at 3:55 PM on July 7, 2004

MetaFilter: Now With Added Flavor!
posted by quonsar at 3:55 PM on July 7, 2004

Well, I had a problem with Asparagirl's post.

It was posted by Asparagirl.

Well, that's certainly rational and lacking in bias, opus.
posted by jonmc at 3:57 PM on July 7, 2004

Umberto Eco has a good article on the protocols of the elders of Zion,
it's called "Fictional Protocols" and it's in his book Six Walks in Fictional Woods.
posted by milovoo at 4:17 PM on July 7, 2004

currentevents.metafilter.com
Should be bright angry red.
(doesn't work as haiku)
posted by darukaru at 6:20 PM on July 7, 2004

current events dot
metafilter dot com should
be bright angry red
posted by carter at 7:55 PM on July 7, 2004

I'LL NEVER FORGIVE THE ZIONISTS FOR DESTROYING THE MATRIX!

if the zion peeps actually did. haven't seen 2 or 3
posted by bargle at 8:15 PM on July 7, 2004

Old pond, new bottles
I/P opponents jump in
Sound of kerfuffle.
posted by carter at 8:18 PM on July 7, 2004

a thicker skin. Like when someone makes the "guinea" slur or "greaseball" slur or whichever incendiary bytes on the screen that sent you leaping from thread to thread

so it's OK for you to use ethnic slurs? just on MeFi or in RL too? is it OK then for you to call a Jewish user a 'kike', then? or is it just that you like ethnic slurs only when they hit people you dislike? frankly, I think ethnic/racial slurs are beyond the pale. but what do I know, I'm a liberal

Your comments in this thread, and the aforementioned thread, are garbage.
coming from you, I take it as a badge of honor. I'll worry when you agree with me, thank you very much
and now if you'll excuse me, I have to go ruffle BlueTrain's hair
posted by matteo at 1:08 AM on July 8, 2004

I'm not a zionist, and I was impressed with how well-balanced the post was. This callout is stupid.
posted by bingo at 2:56 AM on July 8, 2004

oh, and Likudgirl -- if you don't like it when users here tell you that your blog suck, grow a thicker skin. or de-link it from your MeFi userpage. or try to put some decent content in it sometime
posted by matteo at 12:35 PM PST on July 7

dhoyt - it is not equivalent that 'grow a thicker skin' should apply to every situation. Certainly, whining about a blog (not that I saw that, that was the charge Matteo made) does not equate to ethnic slurs.

Will ethnic slurs become acceptable ever on mefi? Would you like that?
posted by dash_slot- at 8:15 AM on July 8, 2004

I'm actually an anti-zionist...although I'm genetically a Semite and quite pro-Jew...and while I automatically skipped the thread, because I'm just not going to have that debate *again*, after reading it and skimming some of the responses, I have to say that IMHO, this call out is unjustified. My only quibble with the post is that I believe the [more inside] should have started with "Angry settlers....". But that's because I hate multipargraph fpps. I'm just weird that way.

Asparagirl and Matteo have been spatting with each other for years. This was fairly mild. Given Matteo's history of posts on this issue, and given that the two of them are as diametrically opposed on the issue as is humanly possible...I don't think that Matteo was out of line either. Asparagirl had to know there would be responses like that. There will always be responses like that. And not just from Matteo. Asparagirl has a long and proud zionist posting history. Other have long and proud posting histories rebutting her. So it goes. It will always be thusly.

I/P threads always turn ugly. This one was actually fairly civilized.
posted by dejah420 at 12:05 PM on July 8, 2004

zionism - apartheid? perhaps asparagirl can explain the difference with all the effort she put into her post ? ...
posted by specialk420 at 10:27 PM on July 8, 2004