Is this what MetaFilter's about?

October 4, 2005 10:37 AM

Is this what MetaFilter's about? I don't want to point fingers at eriko specifically, but come on, people. Are we going to have to institute a swear jar? Or a polysyllabic personal insult jar?

There comes a time when you need to step away from your keyboards, folks. Take a few minutes outside, maybe find a tree to sit under and do some breathing exercises.

I've never done a "call-out" on anyone in the year (well, not quite) that I've been here, but this really bothers me. People are suffering and you are arguing. You know what they say about not being part of the solution, folks. Again, this is NOT just eriko. You know who you are. I've never wanted to leave the site before today. But I paid my money; why should I leave? Why should anyone leave? Can we try to get along instead?
posted by Eideteker to Etiquette/Policy at 10:37 AM (176 comments total)

Yes, I did (and still am) flagging ALL the posts that are offensive or otherwise just really off-topic in that thread. While I don't propose they be deleted (I'm anti-censorship, personally), I think that people should learn to better self-censor and think before they berate.
posted by Eideteker at 10:46 AM on October 4, 2005

I went ahead and sent eriko an e-hug on behalf of MeFi. Also a Hurricane card just in-case he's from the NoLa area. All should be copasetic soon.
posted by dhoyt at 10:47 AM on October 4, 2005

I'd believe eriko's protestations a lot more if he didn't sound so all-fired thrilled at having poor whites to blame for all the worlds problems. Lesson to him: Divide & Conquer, Scapegoating etc. are on page one of the politician's handbook. And he's falling for it as much as any Nebraska factory worker who was suckered into voting Bush.

But like a smart comic doesen't blame his audience for not finding him funny, a smart politician dosen't blame the electrorate for not electing him. For the past twenty years, the steretype of liberals has been: spoiled, elitist, condesending. Whether it's true or not dosen't matter particularly. We neeed to figure out how those perceptions came about and how to combat them. I'm not talking about changing policy one iota, merely how we present them. And if that means giving up that warm fuzzy feeling of superiority that we treaure so much, well that's just too fucking bad.

In the FDR years, people we'd describe as red staters were the backbone of the Democratic party. We need to figure out how we lost them and how we can gain them back, so we can get in office and actually get shit done. If Bush's declining approval rating is any sign, we have an opening.

I realize that this is merely a variation on what I've been saying here for years, and I don't expect anyone who hasn't been hearing it before to start now, but I'll say it anyway.
posted by jonmc at 10:48 AM on October 4, 2005

I don't know, I really don't see it as that bad. I wish there was less tribalism, liberal v. conservative, but lots of our discourse today revolves around these two ideologies so I think it's to be expected. People get really worked up, and make things personal, that's a shame and bad conduct.

I don't like the whole people are suffering and we're arguing thing. Everyone agrees people are suffering, I don't think anyone actually thinks this is a good thing. There are some, "I told you so's" but people like feeling vindicated when evidence comes out that their relatively unpopular view was right all along. If the thread was just a bunch of "I feel so bad for these people" or "." would that be better? I honestly like an argument more than a unified outpouring of sympathy. That's just my take on things.
posted by I Foody at 10:54 AM on October 4, 2005

If the thread was just a bunch of "I feel so bad for these people" or "." would that be better?

It'd probably be more productive.
posted by jonmc at 10:56 AM on October 4, 2005

Also, can we have a flag that says something like "Unsubstantiated" for when someone says something without providing any factual basis?

dhoyt: It's not like he doesn't have some valid points, y'know? I agree about Wal-Mart, especially. But expressing ideas angrily is different from expressing them fervently.

On preview: No, I Foody, I think there's a difference between a debate and an argument. In this case, by argument I mean "brawl". The idea is that these terms are evil, or at least being used toward evil ends. They are terms that polarize people, rather than unite them. You can disagree with someone but be united with someone working towards a solution.
posted by Eideteker at 11:01 AM on October 4, 2005

Productive at what? I'm not saying this thread has been very productive but how would that be productive? I really wonder what you mean by the word. I mean this to be nice, but I'm not good at sounding nice.
posted by I Foody at 11:02 AM on October 4, 2005

That post is fucking awesome.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 11:02 AM on October 4, 2005

Eideteker, my comrade, my ace, it saddens me to say it, but I think the powers-that-be in this country want polarization and that too much of the populace (left and right) is only too happy to give it to them.
posted by jonmc at 11:03 AM on October 4, 2005

We need to figure out how we lost them

Civil rights, essentially, aka the Southern Strategy.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 11:05 AM on October 4, 2005

Productive at what? I'm not saying this thread has been very productive but how would that be productive?

Comung up with solutions, perhaps? or even just ideas?

There's a great quotation from Abbie Hoffman in Revolution For The Hell Of It:

Ask someone what they want. If they say, "I wanna beat the shit out of kids like you," build them a boxing ring.
posted by jonmc at 11:05 AM on October 4, 2005

Civil rights, essentially, aka the Southern Strategy.

Race is a factor, certainly, but I don't think it's the whole story.
posted by jonmc at 11:06 AM on October 4, 2005

I read his comments, not just those flagged, and agreed with nearly every word. Profanity and all.

Get off his back.
posted by docpops at 11:11 AM on October 4, 2005

Foody: Part of my point is I harbor you no ill-will (you may have also noticed me agreeing with a few of your comments). By productive I mean energizing. Thought-provoking. Inspirational. It is possible to learn something from a MetaFilter thread, you know? But when things degenerate to a shouting match, I just want to close the window, rather than sharing ideas with people that can help me make a change in my every day life. Because it's those individual changes that add up to the state of the world. I still young enough that I haven't given up hope that we, together as a species but each acting individually, can change the world.

I'm gonna quote Rush one more time:
"I'm old enough not to care too much
About what you think of me
But I'm young enough to remember the future
And the way things ought to be"
posted by Eideteker at 11:12 AM on October 4, 2005

Race is a factor, certainly, but I don't think it's the whole story.
posted by jonmc at 11:06 AM PST on October 4

Also Jesus.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:12 AM on October 4, 2005

Also Jesus.

Yeah, that too. But what about economics. The farm and industrial economies that sustained these regions have been suffering badly in today's economy and there hasn't been much done by either the right or the left about it.
posted by jonmc at 11:19 AM on October 4, 2005

Whether the comment was effective depends on eriko's purpose.
If he just wanted to get this off his chest, he seems to have done that quite well. In fact, all of this needed to be said. But if his purpose was to bring his adversary around, the post was probably not effective as it was offensive. He may well have concluded that there's no bringing around the flag-waving, support our troops right or wrong, buy American, welfare is for lazy black people crowd, so an attempt to bring him around may not have been the purpose at all.
He could have paused to calm down and written a more balanced response, but then his message would have lost its rawness. The message as it is a clearer, less filtered reflection of his thoughts, which may in itself be enough redeeming value.
posted by leapingsheep at 11:19 AM on October 4, 2005

I like things above the belt but I guess I have a higher tolerance for this particular type of bullshit than you. While it doesn't add anything to the thread for me it doesn't spoil it for me either. I see this kind of shouting as a sign that people are interested, it's a negative result of a positive thing. I don't think eriko crossed any line, other than the Fonz line between cool and un-cool, but I don't expect or even want cooler heads to prevail all the time. I wasn't attacking anything, I don't have any problem with this meta being here, I don't think it's frivolous, but I do disagree with the extent of the sentiment.
posted by I Foody at 11:24 AM on October 4, 2005

He may well have concluded that there's no bringing around the flag-waving, support our troops right or wrong, buy American, welfare is for lazy black people crowd,

I don't mean to jump on you, leapingsheep, but again, isn't that kind of reductive. Flag-waving? Yeah, people tend to be patriotic in alot of the country, and in that demographic they are more likely to have served in the military or had a family or friend who has served so they may find some of the percieved anti-military rhetoric disrespectful or off-putting. And as to the welfare phrase: I agree that race is a factor i people's perceptions of welfare, but you have to remember how deep the work ethic goes among a lot of the population. To ask for public assistance is tantamount to admitting failure in many people's minds.

Now, I'm not saying that voting Republican makes sense either, just making a point.
posted by jonmc at 11:25 AM on October 4, 2005

Civil rights, essentially, aka the Southern Strategy.

Also Jesus

Also taxes. And lack of leadership. And self-loathing. And hypocrisy. And spending. And wishy washiness. And "political correctness". And so forth. Though it is always convenient to paint The Enemy, one and all, as Jesus-obsessed racists. Former Democrats couldn't have possibly left the flock because the flock's message wasn't so cogent or realistic after all, could they? Try talking to a conservative sometime, in person, over coffee, with an open mind. Most of them won't even try to suck your blood.
posted by dhoyt at 11:27 AM on October 4, 2005

I read his comments, not just those flagged, and agreed with nearly every word. Profanity and all.

Get off his back.

That settles it people, docpops agreed with nearly every word! Leave him alone!

Not to speak for Eideteker, but I don't think it's the content of the message that led him to post this. The question is what is appropriate for this place, whether the poster is amberglow or Steve @ Linnwood. (Mind you, I'm not claiming to know the answer -- to me, the owner of the site makes that call. But in my humble opinion "I hope your life falls into desperate poverty. I hope you end up lying on the ground, begging for someone to give you the rope to hang yourself with -- and you can be damn sure that if I find you, I won't give you a hand, and I won't give you the rope. I'll leave you right there, in your own personal hell, and I will fucking laugh" isn't exactly a model of rational behavior).
posted by pardonyou? at 11:29 AM on October 4, 2005

In fact, all of this needed to be said.
posted by leapingsheep at 11:19 AM PST on October 4

When you start from that premise, is becomes easier to justify anything. Agreement and firmness of conviction ought not devour the need for decorum or properly-directed criticism. A fact that a lot of us, including me, need to remember.
posted by dios at 11:31 AM on October 4, 2005

jonmc, I'm from metro Detroit. My father and all my uncles were in Vietnam, and my grandfather was in World War II. All of the above are or were factory workers and UAW members. I am very acquainted with this way of thinking, and was raised by people who hoped to make me think like that, but I was able to see through it from at least the time I was in middle school.
posted by leapingsheep at 11:32 AM on October 4, 2005

Also, can we have a flag that says something like "Unsubstantiated" for when someone says something without providing any factual basis?

Oh man, that's funny.
posted by SweetJesus at 11:35 AM on October 4, 2005

Try talking to a conservative sometime, in person, over coffee, with an open mind. Most of them won't even try to suck your blood.

Well, dhoyt, as I'm sure you'll acknowledge, there's conservatives and there's conservatives. Bush and his crew are conservatives (as in "minimal government interference" for better or for worse) like Elvis was a black belt.

IF Stone one of the leftiest lefties in leftyland said before he died that "what [the US] needs is an alliance between progressives and genuine conservatives, as opposed to the religious fanatics, nuts, and cryptofascists proclaiming themselves such."

(mind you, I'm talking about the politicians here, not the populace, just to be clear)
posted by jonmc at 11:35 AM on October 4, 2005

Someone needs to lob off their hand or something.

If I do it will y'all stop being all hibbidy-jibbidy all the time? Christ, lately it's like MeFi got dropped into a big patch of worrywort or something.
posted by sciurus at 11:36 AM on October 4, 2005

I am very acquainted with this way of thinking, and was raised by people who hoped to make me think like that, but I was able to see through it from at least the time I was in middle school.

Wee, good for you, I guess, but not all elements of "that way of thinking," are neccessarily bad, and I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.
posted by jonmc at 11:37 AM on October 4, 2005

not all elements of "that way of thinking," are necessarily bad, and I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.
No, no, it's true, they aren't necessarily bad. I don't hate my family, but I've come to the point that I simply avoid discussing these things with them. It's the same reason I don't discuss religion with them. They don't really think of much that happens outside their small town, their slightly xenophobic, and to hear me express a contrary opinion speaks to them of disloyalty; it's just never pretty. You're right, what I wrote was alienating. I'm just frustrated at what all this has lead to, that Bush wasn't elected just once but was actually reelected after they saw what he did in his first term. But it's true, it does no good to alienate them.
posted by leapingsheep at 11:54 AM on October 4, 2005

they're
posted by leapingsheep at 11:54 AM on October 4, 2005

But it's true, it does no good to alienate them.

That's all my arm-flapping in political threads has ever been about, dude.

You're right, what I wrote was alienating.

Compared to a lot of what I see and hear, it was downright diplomatic, my friend.
posted by jonmc at 11:56 AM on October 4, 2005

But like a smart comic doesen't blame his audience for not finding him funny, a smart politician dosen't blame the electrorate for not electing him. For the past twenty years, the steretype of liberals has been: spoiled, elitist, condesending. Whether it's true or not dosen't matter particularly.

Right, it's because of people like Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michel Malkan, and Bill O'Riley that republicans can never get elected.
posted by delmoi at 12:00 PM on October 4, 2005

IF Stone one of the leftiest lefties in leftyland said before he died that "what [the US] needs is an alliance between progressives and genuine conservatives, as opposed to the religious fanatics, nuts, and cryptofascists proclaiming themselves such."


So true.
posted by docpops at 12:01 PM on October 4, 2005

I know you are but what am I?
posted by darukaru at 12:03 PM on October 4, 2005

I think this is a good callout. What's disturbing to me about that comment, and many that I read here (especially in political threads) is the largely unprovoked escalation of rhetoric. There seems little space in many threads between disagreement and offense, so that suggesting that someone may not have the only viable position on a topic becomes an invitation to respond with an over-the-top ranting attack. It always makes me uncomfortable, and is very different, I think, from an escalation of rhetoric on both sides or a response to trolling or to willfull and obstinant disregard for evidence and argument. I also think that it's not convincing at all.
posted by OmieWise at 12:14 PM on October 4, 2005

"Right, it's because of people like Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michel Malkan, and Bill O'Riley that republicans can never get elected."
No, dumbass, because they're good at blaming the Liberals for all of the bad things that happen to YOU, rather than blaming YOU for all the bad things that Republicans do to YOU.
posted by klangklangston at 12:16 PM on October 4, 2005

delmoi, thaks for your usual cogent, illuminating, contributions devoid of personal animus.
posted by jonmc at 12:18 PM on October 4, 2005

I really don't care if somebody swears at somebody else. Name calling is never a good debate tactic, and is rarely intelligent or productive, but honestly, do we really want to be the "play nice" and "don't curse" police?

But there are two points: a swear jar? Fuck that. I swear as fucking much as I fucking like and it's not my fucking problem if you don't fucking like it. Feel free to think whatever you want of me as a result.

The second point: personal insults. Not a great thing. But so what? Do we really want to police people insulting each other? No, not unless it very clearly crosses some kind of vague line in the sand (hah! funny), which one can debate forever about any particular post. Which is why it generally seems like a bad idea to me. What we are left with is the capricious metric of "did it raise to the level of annoying Matt," which isn't a very good one.

American political discourse is in a very sorry shape in this country. MeFi is not going to fix it, and call-outs at individuals who may or may not have crossed the line is like a fart in the wind.
posted by teece at 12:34 PM on October 4, 2005

delmoi, thaks for your usual cogent, illuminating, contributions devoid of personal animus.

You're welcome.
posted by delmoi at 12:35 PM on October 4, 2005

I agree with OmieWise, and I'd like to take this opportunity to thank jonmc for being a dependable voice of reason and humanity amid the flying knives and pools of pig grease. Some of us have similar attitudes but either can't keep our cool or can't take the heat in the kitchen. Hang in there, Iron Chef!*

*Note: no actual cooking ability implied.
posted by languagehat at 12:39 PM on October 4, 2005

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank jonmc for being a dependable voice of reason and humanity amid the flying knives and pools of pig grease.

You're welcome. But most of what I learned about articulating my point of veiw, I learned from you, signore capello di lingua.

As for some others...i shall think of you all when I am cugging Citrate Of magnesia tommorrow night, before my procedure.
posted by jonmc at 12:45 PM on October 4, 2005

Anyway, my point is that while politicians should be polite, and inoffensive to the rural poor, we shouldn't have to be. There are liberals out in the boonies as well, it's silly to imagine otherwise. Maybe some of those poor people will read metafilter and get pissed off and become a more diehard republican, in which case Eriko's venting may be somewhat self-defeating, but that's still his choice. I doubt that there are very many, though. (I like how he added 'welcome to our nightmare, as if we are suffering too -- other then a chronic medical problems, I don't think many mefites are in the classes of people harmed by Bush)

I'm just saying, you can't just judge a political philosophy by the outrage of various base-members and commentators. You have to go by what the people in power say or believe. You really think Bill Clinton, for example, hates poor whites. (Republicans made fun of him for being a 'redneck').

The point about Ann Coulter, et. al. is that These people aren't worrying about how to 'reach out' to intelligent, educated people, they're busy demonizing them, but they're still winning elections by polarizing the population in the right way.

I'm not saying we also have to polarize, but to demand that all liberals must get on their knees and reach out to people who hate them is and idea, I think, that will not gain much traction.
posted by delmoi at 12:53 PM on October 4, 2005

I'm not saying we also have to polarize, but to demand that all liberals must get on their knees and reach out to people who hate them is and idea, I think, that will not gain much traction.

Did you ever stop to consider that there's two sides to that coin? Plenty of "red-staters" or whatever you want to call them are under the impression that liberals hate them. So there we are, in what Ben Hamper called "a stalemate of mutual disgust."
posted by jonmc at 12:57 PM on October 4, 2005

I don't think eriko crossed any line, other than the Fonz line between cool and un-cool

most excellent.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:57 PM on October 4, 2005

You really think Bill Clinton, for example, hates poor whites. (Republicans made fun of him for being a 'redneck').

And Bill, to a degree embraced the "Bubba' Clinton label. he probably gained some votes from it.
posted by jonmc at 12:58 PM on October 4, 2005

The point about Ann Coulter, et. al. is that These people aren't worrying about how to 'reach out' to intelligent, educated people, they're busy demonizing them, but they're still winning elections by polarizing the population in the right way.

Yup, distract them with talk of the demon left wing and their "liberal" agenda with gays, abortion, and immorality.
posted by Numenorian at 1:00 PM on October 4, 2005

best of luck, jonmc. i'll send you some good vibes tomorrow.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:01 PM on October 4, 2005

thanks, grimster. But I'm getting lithotripsy, vibes may be the last thing I need ;>
posted by jonmc at 1:08 PM on October 4, 2005

As a wise man once said: Agreement and firmness of conviction ought not devour the need for decorum or properly-directed criticism.
posted by Khalad at 1:37 PM on October 4, 2005

Y'know, falling sky doesn't actually hurt at all...
posted by i_cola at 1:48 PM on October 4, 2005

I'm gonna quote Rush one more time:
"I'm old enough not to care too much
About what you think of me
But I'm young enough to remember the future
And the way things ought to be"
posted by Eideteker at 11:12 AM PST on October 4 [!]

who knew there was a connection between Rush and Rush?
posted by Hat Maui at 1:51 PM on October 4, 2005

delmoi, thaks for your usual cogent, illuminating, contributions devoid of personal animus.

was this sarcastic? 'cuz if not, i totally missed the "personal animus" part from delmoi. care to show me what i missed?
posted by Hat Maui at 1:54 PM on October 4, 2005

i_cola: "Y'know, falling sky doesn't actually hurt at all..."

Sometimes it does.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:55 PM on October 4, 2005

was this sarcastic? 'cuz if not, i totally missed the "personal animus" part from delmoi. care to show me what i missed?

in several other threads delmoi has referred to me as an "idiot" but then again, he calls people an idiot a lot. So, I'm disinclined to take anything he says very seriously.
posted by jonmc at 1:59 PM on October 4, 2005

and hat maui, as the author of these gems, you are in no position act smug about personal animus.
posted by jonmc at 2:07 PM on October 4, 2005

I hope your life falls into desperate poverty. I hope you end up lying on the ground, begging for someone to give you the rope to hang yourself with -- and you can be damn sure that if I find you, I won't give you a hand, and I won't give you the rope. I'll leave you right there, in your own personal hell, and I will fucking laugh

This says much more about the inadequacies and issues of the author, than it does about the target of the diatribe.
If it was my site I'd also seriously consider at least a temporary ban, but that's just my opinion, and we all know how much my opinion is worth.

about $0.01 at market close, and looks to open lower at the opening bell tomorrow
posted by forforf at 2:11 PM on October 4, 2005

I'll back up jonmc on that. Both delmoi and hat maui have both been consistently extremely rude and quick to show their personal animus to me in the past without incitement from me.

As for positive reinforcement, I'll also back up jonmc on the fact that languagehat is a good exemplar for this website. Would that we all had even his disposition. And Stetsons.
posted by dios at 2:12 PM on October 4, 2005

Kinski on Herzog

Herzog is a miserable, hateful, malevolent, avaricious, money-hungry, nasty, sadistic, treacherous, cowardly creep...he should be thrown alive to the crocodiles! An anaconda should strangle him slowly! A poisonous spider should sting him and paralyze his lungs! The most venomous serpent should bite him and make his brain explode! No panther claws should rip open his throat--that would be much too good for him! Huge red ants should piss into his lying eyes and gobble up his balls and his guts! He should catch the plague! Syphilis! Yellow fever! Leprosy! It's no use; the more I wish him the most gruesome deaths, the more he haunts me.
posted by JohnR at 2:16 PM on October 4, 2005

Y'know, falling sky doesn't actually hurt at all...

It does when it's in the form of baseball sized hale.

and hat maui, as the author of these gems, you are in no position act smug about personal animus.

You mean you aren't drunk right now jon? I kid.

Plenty of "red-staters" or whatever you want to call them are under the impression that liberals hate them.

Plenty of liberals do hate them.
posted by Pollomacho at 2:18 PM on October 4, 2005

was this sarcastic? 'cuz if not, i totally missed the "personal animus" part from delmoi. care to show me what i missed?

- Hat Maui

In several other threads delmoi has referred to me as an "idiot" but then again, he calls people an idiot a lot. So, I'm disinclined to take anything he says very seriously. -jonmc

May 7th? Way to hold a grudge, dude. In any event, you are clearly not an idiot, so I was mistaken in that thread. Have I ever called Dios an idiot? I'm not sure, but it seems likely that I would have, because his comments can be very idiotic at times, although that seems to stem more from disingenuousness then a lack of intelligence. I think what Hat Maui was asking was at what point did I bring "personal animus" into either the thread under discussion or this one? Yes, I made a sarcastic statement responding to something you said here, but that was because I disagreed with it, hardly unprecedented on metafilter. Looking back through my comments, I don't see anything that could be considered particularly offensive (other then my disregard for poor rural gas guzzlers, who I coldly proclaimed deserved government assistance.)

Anyway, just to clarify I don't have anything against you and for the most part I think you are a great contributor to metafilter.
posted by delmoi at 2:30 PM on October 4, 2005

I forget who I'm supposed to hate anymore, but I loooooove Herzog:

[When faced with the jeering and hollering of the 1,500 booing patrons who despised his Lessons of Darkness at the Berlin Film Festival] "You are all wrong."

posted by Divine_Wino at 2:32 PM on October 4, 2005

you know what dios? no one is buying the "new dios."

also, didn't you leave or something? what happened with that? did you miss the self-created drama?

jonmc, just because delmoi called you a name in a previous thread doesn't mean that "personal animus" is a valid criticism of his behavior in this thread. were you just looking to pick a fight over past wrongs?

as for me, i'll admit to some unwarranted potshots at you before, and i apologize for it. i will refrain from personal attacks toward you in the future, unless you say something really provocative. but at least admit that you were drunk in the posts that i referenced.

also, speaking of smug, your "regular guy" wisdom can be every bit as offputting as the most rabid diatribe, especially when it's as ubiquitous as it is. i know, i know, it's what makes you "you" and i'll cop to having gleaned an interesting insight or two from your posts. but sometimes it's like having your face rubbed on a cheese grater.
posted by Hat Maui at 2:33 PM on October 4, 2005

Anyway, just to clarify I don't have anything against you and for the most part I think you are a great contributor to metafilter.

Fair enough. But when I googled "delmoi idiot" there was no shortage of results. be careful what you say to people, because generally we remember stuff like that more than neutral stuff. But I'll retract my response even though I do think you missed the point of my original comment.

As for at maui, he just thinks he's being cute when he's merely being a pest.
posted by jonmc at 2:35 PM on October 4, 2005

but at least admit that you were drunk in the posts that i referenced.

actually, I wasn't. My misspellings and contraction mistakes are often (and I'll bet this is true of a lot of people) usually due to the fact that I'm surreptiously typing posts at work and don't have the editing time I'd like. But as long as the meaning of a comment is clear, I think we should cut people some slackon that front.

As for the "regular guy," persona, it wasn't one I asked for, but I've accepted it, even if I said numerous times on here that American society is so fragmented that I don't think such a creature as "the Average American" even exists anymore. Dosen't mean i won't try to find comon ground with as many people as I can though.
posted by jonmc at 2:40 PM on October 4, 2005

so you're going to play me like i'm not even here? and here i thought we might be headed toward a makeup.

well, so be it, i guess i'll have to press on with life without having reconciled with you, guy. but it sorta runs counter to all the crap you've been saying in this thread and the mefi one, stuff about reaching out to those who disagree with you and whatnot.
posted by Hat Maui at 2:43 PM on October 4, 2005

You're comment hadn't appeared yet when I typed mine, hat maui. And the comments I cited weren't about disagreement, they were personal. You'll also recall that the next day hoyt started a MeTa thread about them and I told him he needn't have bothered. I just brought them up here since you semed to be getting high and mighty about my beef with delmoi, which, really was between him and me. But if your sincere about not holding grudges and wiping the slate clean, I'm cool with that.

But I've learned the hard way that there's people on the other side of those pixels so maybe a little mutual respect is in order.
posted by jonmc at 2:49 PM on October 4, 2005

also, didn't you leave or something? what happened with that? did you miss the self-created drama?

So I chose to leave. Its what many of you wanted. So do me the favor of not trying to insult me or bait me after I have given you what the undisturbed echo chamber that you want.
posted by dios at 12:08 PM PST on September 20

I've quit reading this site
posted by dios at 12:13 PM PST on September 20

p.s. dumb indians had no laws so it was okay to murder them and take their land lmao
posted by dios at 9:59 AM PST on October 4
posted by Optimus Chyme at 2:49 PM on October 4, 2005

Apparently this is of great concern to some of you, so let me address it one time, and then I am finished with it. I recieved many encouraging e-mails from people asking me to keep posting for various reasons, and had discussions in which some people convinced me that if I just ignore the rudeness, insults and shouting and make a good faith effort to post substantively in the face of it, eventually that abusive behavior will be marginalized away. The idea being that if I post without acknowledging or addressing the ad hominem, that after awhile the people, like yourself Optimus, who constantly attack me will be sufficiently condemned and it will stop. I don't know that I believe that theory, so I thought I would give it a shot. So far it appears to be wrong.

But that should answer your question once and for all. Any further query on the topic is just de-railing noise.

As to your last "quote", at some point people's comments just become self-discrediting and require no further comment from me.
posted by dios at 3:04 PM on October 4, 2005

Fair enough. But when I googled "delmoi idiot" there was no shortage of results.


_{Results 1 - 10 of about 230 from metafilter.com for delmoi idiot. (0.13 seconds)
...
Results 1 - 10 of about 256 from metafilter.com for jonmc idiot. (0.21 seconds)}


Looks like you've got me beat.
posted by delmoi at 3:05 PM on October 4, 2005

Fair enough. Want the rest of my donut? it's pumpkin spice.
posted by jonmc at 3:07 PM on October 4, 2005

I just brought them up here since you semed to be getting high and mighty about my beef with delmoi, which, really was between him and me.

"Beef"? We have a "beef" now? WTF? Did you miss this comment?


Anyway, just to clarify I don't have anything against you and for the most part I think you are a great contributor to metafilter.

Well, whatever.
posted by delmoi at 3:11 PM on October 4, 2005

Read what I just wrote. I'm over it. Emjoy the donut.
posted by jonmc at 3:12 PM on October 4, 2005

kobe beef?
posted by wakko at 3:14 PM on October 4, 2005

I'm so sorry; let me be more thorough.

The Indians didn't have a claim to land, weren't a sovereign nation with supreme laws. The United States, through the Right of Conquest, took legal possession over the land and placed it under a formal government and its laws.

None of this is to condone the treatment of American Indians or Mexicans

So what you're really saying is that it may be morally repugnant, but damned if you won't find a way to justify it.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:17 PM on October 4, 2005

Read what I just wrote. I'm over it. Emjoy the donut.

Ok.
posted by delmoi at 3:17 PM on October 4, 2005

So what you're really saying is that it may be morally repugnant, but damned if you won't find a way to justify it.

I wouldn't presume to speak for dios, but I'd venture he wasn't condoning it, so much as illustrating the legal chicanery that was used to do it.
posted by jonmc at 3:18 PM on October 4, 2005

Is this what MetaFilter's about?
Unfortunately, yes.
posted by dg at 3:18 PM on October 4, 2005

dios, it's always about you you you right? at this point one of our homophobic users (Allah knows we have many) could really call you a drama queen
posted by matteo at 3:19 PM on October 4, 2005

hey, thanks for the heads up on dhoyt's callout (which i had heretofore been oblivious of), jonmc.

good thing me and karl reconciled via email, else i'd be hella pissed. well, not really. but some people were particularly nasty in that thread. ah, well.

as for wiping the slate clean, jonmc, let's do that, 'kay?
posted by Hat Maui at 3:20 PM on October 4, 2005

*looks for another donut*

vanilla creme ok?
posted by jonmc at 3:21 PM on October 4, 2005

you got any boston creme? i mean, vanilla cream's pretty good and all, but it is sort of vanilla.
posted by Hat Maui at 3:23 PM on October 4, 2005

I wish we could have thrown down gauntlets and have duels on MeFi. It'd settle the name-calling a bit, as when it happened one party would generally end up dead.

Death tends to check some of the more stupid behavior of some people. For those who death does not check, well, they either are very good at dueling, or they die.

Now that'd straighten the site out.

/sarcasm

But yes, there are actual people on the other side of the pixels. If you wouldn't say it with the person standing in front of you (with the possibility of a physical fight as the result), you shouldn't say it on MeFi.

But, I also don't know that the constant attempts to police such behavior make MeFi a better place. Maybe they do, but I'm not sure.
posted by teece at 3:24 PM on October 4, 2005

I gotcher boston creme, right here!

sorry.

I fear this may be my last creme donut for a while, since my doctor has said I need to stay away from calcium.

*weeps*
posted by jonmc at 3:25 PM on October 4, 2005

I really have to give props to jonmc for keeping a level head.

Personally, I'd like to beat eriko to an inch of his life and leave him tied naked to a fence during a Siskiyou County winter; and I'm a liberal.
posted by keswick at 3:27 PM on October 4, 2005

If you wouldn't say it with the person standing in front of you (with the possibility of a physical fight as the result), you shouldn't say it on MeFi.

I learned that from the whole "drama queen," debacle. It was ugly in the cold light of day, but it was merely an extreme version of something we've done a lot here. Periodically, we'll seize on someone that we've decided we dislike and go all lynch mob on them. It not pleasant to see, and even when the pile-onee has (to some extent) invited the abuse, it gets a little too Lord Of The Flies for my taste and my sympathy winds up going out to them.
posted by jonmc at 3:28 PM on October 4, 2005

Hang in there Dios
posted by Carbolic at 3:30 PM on October 4, 2005

ooh, keswick, you kinky devil!!!
posted by ramix at 3:31 PM on October 4, 2005

I wouldn't presume to speak for dios, but I'd venture he wasn't condoning it, so much as illustrating the legal chicanery that was used to do it.
posted by jonmc at 3:18 PM PST on October 4

Check this shit out, jonmc: the second statement here is clearly one where he's expressing an opinion he believes is fact:

"There is a difference between the illegal mexicans and the relationship between the United States and Indians. The Indians didn't have a claim to land, weren't a sovereign nation with supreme laws."

Sure, he notes that Marshall was the originator of that claim, but he certainly does not disagree with Marshall's assessment, despite his half-hearted "this is not to condone..." bit.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:38 PM on October 4, 2005

If you say so, but I'd venture that's a stretch. It may be due to his awkwardness of how we say it, or us being hypervigilant for bad sentiments in his statements, I dunno.
posted by jonmc at 3:40 PM on October 4, 2005

posted by Hat Maui at 3:44 PM on October 4, 2005

So, everyone still has his right hand? How unsatisfying.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:48 PM on October 4, 2005

dios, it's always about you you you right? at this point one of our homophobic users (Allah knows we have many) could really call you a drama queen

Eh, to be fair Optimus Chyme brought up that history stuff. I try to avoid brining up other people's posting history, etc, when debating them. Not to say I've been entirely successful.
posted by delmoi at 4:08 PM on October 4, 2005

This thread is the christmas feeling. I have missed this place.
posted by Peter H at 4:40 PM on October 4, 2005

I thought Eriko's comment was spot on. One of the problems facing the progressive movement is that we don't get fired up enough.
posted by bshort at 4:42 PM on October 4, 2005

Or know how to contain the fire.
posted by dhoyt at 4:45 PM on October 4, 2005

Anyone who prefers Boston Creme to custard is a motherfucking retard who should be beaten with paczki.
posted by klangklangston at 4:46 PM on October 4, 2005

Dios, and anyone else to whom this is salient, you pretty much have to ignore the knee-jerk insults and whatnot for a long time before it stops bothering you very much and the people doing it start looking bad for doing it. It doesn't happen overnight, unfortunately. But it does happen.

LH won't say this, but that thread and this one, I think (but I could be wrong) are examples of why you see less and less of him around here these days. This place is a very hateful place that is less and less fun to be around.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:47 PM on October 4, 2005

at this point one of our homophobic users (Allah knows we have many) could really call you a drama queen

Oh totally, my genius friend. I mean, if we learned anything from that whole debacle it's that the term 'drama queen' is, in fact, exceptionally homophobic, and that it's a phrase which cannot be applied with any other meaning. Glad you came away from that thread with an education. Allahu Akbar.
posted by dhoyt at 4:50 PM on October 4, 2005

One of the problems facing the progressive movement is that we don't get fired up enough.

Yeah, telling the popoulace that they're a bunch of fucktards usually helps win elections.
posted by jonmc at 4:50 PM on October 4, 2005

"One of the problems facing the progressive movement is that we don't get fired up enough."

All I have to say about this, and I hope some of you see the wisdom in what I'm about to say, is that yes, getting "fired up" is important but that hating whole classes of people and stereotyping them and basically dehumanizing them is not a productive way to get fired up. It is, quite frankly, evil. No matter who does it. The GOP in modern times has been very self-indulgent about this and, I'd submit, it's been a moral cancer at the heart of their movement which is now slowly coming to greater public awareness. We (on the left) don't need to be like them, it'll corrupt our souls just as much as it did theirs.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:51 PM on October 4, 2005

HELLO FINE PEOPLE. i live in arkansas. would you like to see my opossum collection?
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 5:11 PM on October 4, 2005

beaten with polack donuts by whom, klangston? you?
posted by Hat Maui at 5:12 PM on October 4, 2005

"There is a difference between the illegal mexicans and the relationship between the United States and Indians. The Indians didn't have a claim to land, weren't a sovereign nation with supreme laws."

Optimus Chyme: The way I read Dios' post it is an opinion regarding the legal situations of the two parties discussed. I cannot see how it can be interpreted as Dios' opinion regarding "goodness" or "badness" of either situation. Based upon the law the two situations are different - that's a fact.
posted by Carbolic at 5:13 PM on October 4, 2005

I haven't read the whole thread but I did read a bunch of it and I think eriko's comments were a little over the top but I definitely agree with the underlying sentiment.
posted by fenriq at 5:14 PM on October 4, 2005

Well, I loved that post. I like a bit of fire and passion every now and then, especially if it's the righteous fire of holy hatred deservedly blasted at the conservative. No like? Then move on. Stop trying to dictate how other people express themselves. A bit of sweary rant never hurt anyone. No one with a sense of proportion, anyway.

I will keep saying this, by the way. Incessantly.
posted by Decani at 5:17 PM on October 4, 2005

"Based upon the law the two situations are different - that's a fact."

However, in order for that conclusion to be true, you must agree that the supporting propositions are true; one of those propositions is "The Indians didn't have a claim to land."

Either he agrees with the proposition in question or he undermines his entire argument. I'll let him decide whether it is worse to be wrong or to be a apologist for genocide.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:18 PM on October 4, 2005

zing!
posted by Hat Maui at 5:19 PM on October 4, 2005

I will keep saying this, by the way. Incessantly.

We know.
posted by jonmc at 5:22 PM on October 4, 2005

Under the law followed by the people who took the land from them "The Indians didn't have a claim to land." That is a FACT. I think he was simply stating facts (or at least the prevailing legal thinking - it's difficult to have absolute facts, like the sun rises in the east, with the law).

In order not to be called out on every post dios would have to post like this "I really think it was an awful thing that we took the land from the indigenous people (I really, really mean that) but under the laws followed by the people who took it (bastards that they were) the indigenous people had no claim to the land."
posted by Carbolic at 5:27 PM on October 4, 2005

Are we going to have to institute a swear jar?

Fuck no.
posted by clevershark at 5:28 PM on October 4, 2005

Yeah, telling the populace that they're a bunch of fucktards usually helps win elections.

See, this is the sentiment that just drives me nuts. Eriko wasn't telling 'the populace' anything, he was just blowing off steam. If you disagree with him, tell him he's an idiot, but don't act like he's doing something 'wrong'.

You complain about political correctness on one hand, and yet you demand it from 'liberals'!
posted by delmoi at 5:34 PM on October 4, 2005

OC, are you aware that dios is some manner of law geek? That he may in fact be discussing national and international law irrespective of any moral position on that law or its application? That "claim" may be a technical term in this instance, not an emotional one?
posted by cortex at 5:38 PM on October 4, 2005

Eriko wasn't telling 'the populace' anything, he was just blowing off steam.

Yes, but the populace is hearing him. I don't demand anything of anybody, but you're foolish if you don't consider what impression what you say will leave. In the blogosphere there is no way of keeping it in the family, people will hear you, and that's just a fact.

I mean imagine this scenario: "Delmoi, you're a fucking moron. All your problems are your fault! I hope you and everyone like you dies! Now listen to me because I'm smarter than you! And vote for my candidate!"

See what I mean. I am a liberal and listening to that kind of talk, whether it's a full on rant or merely the smug dismissal that one encounters more often, makes me want to tell them to fuck off, but sadly the only other game in town sucks even worse.

I've said it before, I am a liberal and I can't stand my fellow liberals. Welcome to my private hell.
posted by jonmc at 5:42 PM on October 4, 2005

"beaten with polack donuts by whom, klangston? you?"
I'll get all bearclaw on your ass, yeah.
posted by klangklangston at 5:47 PM on October 4, 2005

"beaten with polack donuts by whom, klangston? you?"
I'll get all bearclaw on your ass, yeah.

Oh, it's pastry battle time, huh?

Well, I am a pastry chef cookin'
confectioner bookin'
king of the bakery,
at what are you lookin'

Crullers, Crullers
Crullers, crullers
posted by jonmc at 5:55 PM on October 4, 2005

I would like to see that possum collection! C'mon weretable, show us some possum.
posted by LarryC at 6:01 PM on October 4, 2005

I've said it before, I am a liberal and I can't stand my fellow liberals. Welcome to my private hell.

Right, but there's a difference between agreeing on the issues and agreeing about how polite people should be, or what kind of a statement is an 'okay' thing to say. I don't think politeness is all that important, I care a lot more about intellectual honesty (for example). I think politeness is largely un-correlated with political views.
posted by delmoi at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2005

delmoi, it's not politeness that bothers me about many of my fellow liberals, it's that well, I have very little in common with a lot of them in terms of tastes, attitudes and experiences, especially the younger more zealoty ones. I'm not gonna give you my life story, but suffice it to say, I've earned my distaste. I'll vote for their candidate, sign their petition, just don't make me hang out with them.*

And, it's not "politeness," I'm talking about, here, it's respecting those with whom you wish to communicate and convince, and you don't think that's a part of politics, I don't know what to tell you man.

*this goes for zealoty conservatives, too. Actually, for recreation, it's probably best to hang out with libertarians and anarchists.
posted by jonmc at 6:15 PM on October 4, 2005

"I don't think politeness is all that important, I care a lot more about intellectual honesty"

Intellectual honesty? Is that another way of saying "self-indulgent, self-important adolescent"? Because that's how I read it. Perhaps intellectual integrity is more germane—and I find it to correlate with courtesy and empathy and inversely to rudeness.

I don't know what world those of you who constantly deride "niceness" and applaud "speaking one's mind" live in, but it's not the one the rest of us live in. Maybe you're stuck in some neverending lady's tea party or something. Out here in the real world, much more common are people that confuse their own predispositions and bigotries for truth, believe that "the man" (of whatever sort) is keeping them down, and that they and only they have the cojones to say it like it is, in spite of the fact that the AM radio and, um, metafilter and everywhere else are all filled with people exactly like them, and just as self-congratulatory and agrrieved. They are the problem, not the cure.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2005

You want to watch those zealoty anarchist too. Sure, they're fun, but recreating with them can lead to housing on the state's nickel.
posted by Carbolic at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2005

Did no one else see this comment

eriko: you're part of the problem. please curl up, die, and go to hell.
posted by keswick at 9:39 AM PST on October 4 [!]

??

That was posted before the he posted the comment that got him called to metatalk.
Maybe having a personal attack calling for his death had some effect on his post.
posted by Iax at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2005

I'd better stop reading this thread -- otherwise it might succeed in convincing me that Metafilter's become pretty hopeless qua forum.
posted by clevershark at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2005

it's not politeness that bothers me about many of my fellow liberals.

Christ on a Vespa, where do you get off thinking I'm a liberal? Hint: Liberals aren't exactly known for "I say let 'em crash"

Want to know my private hell? Watching what was left of the liberal fight fade away when Gore conceded. At least, in the past, they fought -- did they ever fight. Fucked over our best chance for energy independence while doing it, mind you, but they did a lot of good. Civil rights, Clean Air and Water, and so on. But they fought, god damn it, and they often won.

Now, it's damn me for daring to feel anger. Since when did you guys becoming the fucking Jedi? Lord knows you were just about as useful against Darth Cheney.

I stand by the hatred I feel watching everything that was good about my homeland either destroyed or perverted. I and stand by my hatred of those who categorically supported them in this goal. You think I should feel sorry for them. Can't. Won't. To hell with being the stoic. To hell with letting the GOP use anger on a daily basis to destroy my country, and not feeling or expressing it at all, and calmly standing by with an idle tounge. To hell with your political correctness, sir.

At least keswick pays me the honor of honesty.
posted by eriko at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2005

Cute speech. You and your self-satisfaction will be very happy together.
posted by jonmc at 7:05 PM on October 4, 2005

This thread is a cock-sucker, motherfucker, fart-fucking, tit licking, Christ-humping fucker. It's shit, bull shit, and horse shit. A good god-damn cunt-kicking asshole-sucking tit-fucking piss-shitter.
posted by scarabic at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2005

I stand by the hatred I feel

And a cozy pair you must be.
posted by LarryC at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2005

yup. what eriko said.


You complain about political correctness on one hand, and yet you demand it from 'liberals'!
yup--he does that all the time. i'd give a million bucks to see jon try to "correct" the tone of the rightwing and hateful shit flung around here--he never seems to notice that nor feel it necessary to comment about it, but jumps right in each time anyone on the left is called out for getting excited.
posted by amberglow at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2005

Bullshit call-out, bullshittier ensuing thread--Jesus, get a room some of you. The sanctimony here is thick, especially in the "I'm political but do it in the right way" department.

As long as Coulters and Limbaughs make millions representing, however childishly, the Republican ethos, the occasional outburst from eriko (in what was mostly a pretty good thread, until the usual suspects came along to remind us what great assets they are to MeFi, how refreshingly "authentic" they are in their political convictions) is hardly something to get upset about.
posted by bardic at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2005

If I hadn't kept reading I would have missed the expressions "fart-fucking" an "bullshittier". Yay!
posted by clevershark at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2005

I'd give a million bucks to see jon try to "correct" the tone of the rightwing and hateful shit flung around here--he never seems to notice that nor feel it necessary to comment about it, but jumps right in each time anyone on the left is called out for getting excited.

Please. Go through my posting history. I've told plenty of right-wing blowhards to fuck off. And, this a predominantly left-wing site, the majority of stupidity is going to be leftie stupidity. Do the math.

Besides, I don't expect decency and humanity from them. I expect better from us. maybe I'm wrong.
posted by jonmc at 7:29 PM on October 4, 2005

As for bardic's comment. The Hannitys, Limbaughs and Coulters of the world always either flame out or run out of steam. I've known my share of self-decribed conservatives, and I've never met one who takes any of them seriously. They don't exist to reprasent conservatism, they exist to outrage liberals and make us look like oversensitive crybabies, and we jump up for the bait like trained dogs, every fucking time. Who cares what they think? Let them dissolve like the farts in the wind they are.
posted by jonmc at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2005

So, eriko, what's your point? That you're damn angry, and you don't care what anyone thinks about it? Well, that's great, but why the hell are you posting it here? If you're truly angry enough to the point that you have no desire to convince anyone here of anything, nor to allow yourself to be convinced of anything, nor to impart any interesting ideas, nor to have interesting ideas imparted to you, then you're just wasting your breath and noising up MeFi. You might as well be dropping rants about how much you hate broccolli or how your ex is a lying bitch/bastard.
posted by Bugbread at 7:38 PM on October 4, 2005

So, eriko, what's your point?

That he's a swell guy for being so angry.
posted by jonmc at 7:39 PM on October 4, 2005

amberglow : "i'd give a million bucks to see jon try to 'correct' the tone of the rightwing and hateful shit flung around here--he never seems to notice that nor feel it necessary to comment about it, but jumps right in each time anyone on the left is called out for getting excited."

Makes sense to me. Jonmc is liberal. He's trying to get liberals to stop shooting themselves in the feet. You're saying he should get conservatives to stop shooting themselves in the feet. That doesn't make nearly as much sense to me.
posted by Bugbread at 7:42 PM on October 4, 2005

Exactly, bugbread. When conservatives act like buffoons, it helps the liberal cause. Why would I want to stop that?
posted by jonmc at 7:44 PM on October 4, 2005

It's also somewhat infuriariting that bugbread had to spell it out that way for people. If you still don't get it, I'll just resort to finger puppets.
posted by jonmc at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2005

Jonmc says:
And, it's not "politeness," I'm talking about, here, it's respecting those with whom you wish to communicate and convince, and you don't think that's a part of politics, I don't know what to tell you man.

Compare with:
I've learned to tolerate cleardawn, but I'll admit to being sick and tired of his "consensus," routine. This isn't a meeting, it's a meeting and nobody appointed him chairman. We're not here to "acheive consensus," we're here to provide cool links and say what's on our minds. -- jonmc

So which is it, are were here to speak our minds or are we here to convince each other of something? And in any event, eriko wasn't trying to communicate and convince anyone of anything, other then that he was pissed. Why is that so bad?

Intellectual honesty? Is that another way of saying "self-indulgent, self-important adolescent"?

No.

Christ on a Vespa, where do you get off thinking I'm a liberal? Hint: Liberals aren't exactly known for "I say let 'em crash"

Duh, you're a liberal because you don't like bush. That's all the term seems to mean these days.
posted by delmoi at 8:02 PM on October 4, 2005

I didn't say we couldn't call bullshit on eachother, delmoi. I'm just saying we shouldn't act like assholes in the process. And in the comment you quoted, I was calling out cleardawn for attempting to control the site. On that note, my kidneys are acting up and Futurama's on, so goodnight.
posted by jonmc at 8:13 PM on October 4, 2005

I will keep saying this, by the way. Incessantly.

That sounds like a lot of fun for us. Perhaps you can do it in all caps, too?

I have to agree with those who believe that persuasion is a matter of sheer repetition, with lots of "fucks" and personal insults thrown in.

yup. what eriko said. ...
posted by amberglow at 7:23 PM PST on October 4 [!]

And the award for least necessary post of the year goes to...
posted by pardonyou? at 8:13 PM on October 4, 2005

How about this -- Sunday (Sunday Sunday) eriko vs. jonmc in a Deathmatch cage! Two men enter, one man leaves!

OK jonmc, we get it. You're obviously so much smarter and more mature than the rest of us plebes, I hardly know why you even bother talking with us of the unwashed masses. You sir must have the patience of a saint, which certainly explains why you apparently just can't help but go on and on and on about how you're going to single-handedly save American liberalism in spite of all the liberals who aren't you.

Frankly when you state that "I am a liberal and I can't stand my fellow liberals", your fellow liberals (well, some of them) will no doubt gladly tell you that the feeling is eminently mutual.
posted by clevershark at 8:17 PM on October 4, 2005

right back at ya, pardon.
posted by amberglow at 8:30 PM on October 4, 2005

where'd I ever say I had any idea how to save it? I just know that the way we've been going about it lately hasn't been working too well. And I'm sure the feeling is mutual. But that dosen't bother me so much.
posted by jonmc at 8:31 PM on October 4, 2005

I'm going to start inviting all the people who decry MeFi as a liberal echo chamber to this thread.
posted by scarabic at 8:34 PM on October 4, 2005

This thread is a cock-sucker, motherfucker, fart-fucking, tit licking, Christ-humping fucker. It's shit, bull shit, and horse shit. A good god-damn cunt-kicking asshole-sucking tit-fucking piss-shitter.
posted by scarabic at 7:11 PM PST on October 4 [!]

What, no nun-fucking?
posted by trondant at 8:36 PM on October 4, 2005

What are we even talking about anymore?
posted by delmoi at 8:36 PM on October 4, 2005

This whole sad thread is an example of how politics poisons this site. After the election Matt said he was going to start zapping political posts, and for a while he did, and it made Metafilter a nicer place. We need to either segregate the political posts (and here is where I suggest yet again that Matt create a section of the site called "NewsFilter") or cut them out entirely.
posted by LarryC at 8:42 PM on October 4, 2005

LarryC: keep dreamin'.
posted by keswick at 9:03 PM on October 4, 2005

Dreaming is my strong suit!
posted by LarryC at 9:05 PM on October 4, 2005

Ethereal Bligh writes "Maybe you're stuck in some neverending lady's tea party or something."

Is the neverending lady's tea party held on Sundays just after four, during the long, dark tea-time of the soul? Just asking.
posted by nkyad at 9:10 PM on October 4, 2005

Is this the neverending lady's tea party that's attended by those wacky ladies in the red hats and purple dresses? I ask because those broads scare the bejeezus out of me.
posted by keswick at 9:21 PM on October 4, 2005

I'll get all bearclaw on your ass, yeah.

now you're just coming on to me.
posted by Hat Maui at 9:30 PM on October 4, 2005

Frankly when you state that "I am a liberal and I can't stand my fellow liberals", your fellow liberals (well, some of them) will no doubt gladly tell you that the feeling is eminently mutual.

Maybe. But it's pretty clear that the folks jonmc is talking about are probably already assholes anyway.

i'd give a million bucks to see jon try to "correct" the tone of the rightwing and hateful shit flung around here--he never seems to notice that nor feel it necessary to comment about it, but jumps right in each time anyone on the left is called out for getting excited.

Seriously? You, of all people, are seriously making a comment like that? Wow.

[holds up mirror]

But I'm sure you can explain why your pet causes are more worthly of unwavering devotion than his...

And in all the years you've been here I've never seen jonmc treat you with anything other than courtesy and respect. For you to lash out at him like that is utterly disgusting and says far more about the way you think about people who disagree with you even slightly than it ever could about him.
posted by Cyrano at 9:58 PM on October 4, 2005

For what it's worth, Cyrano, amberglow does not position himself as a conservative pointing out the foibles of his side.

But I'm not saying that jonmc is positioning himself falsely, either. Just that they would look all crooked in the mirror.
posted by hackly_fracture at 10:05 PM on October 4, 2005

The Hannitys, Limbaughs and Coulters of the world always either flame out or run out of steam. I've known my share of self-decribed conservatives, and I've never met one who takes any of them seriously. They don't exist to reprasent conservatism, they exist to outrage liberals

I respect your broader point jon, but this strikes me as very out of touch.

Limbaugh et al. serve an extremely useful purpose. Their programs don't reach millions by accident, and their viewers aren't being forced to tune in.

Indeed, with the elimination of the Fairness Doctrine by Reagan (or was it Bush I?) you can watch AM radio, and Limbaugh in particular, begin an extremely successful media campaign that's culminated with Fox News, and that campaign has played a vital role in Republican success. With it, Republicans can shape the news cycle, to a very large degree. Hannity and Limbaugh are part of the apparatus that allows that to happen.

If you think they are helping liberals or Democrats or that they aren't playing an extremely useful and vital role for Republicans, I'd say you are very out of touch with how the modern Republican party wins elections. They allow politicians to pretend to represent a sane viewpoint, while letting the Limbaughs of the world spout the actual crap that gets a very large chunk of the base out on election day.

You'll note I never once said "conservative" in this thread. Limbaugh et. al and modern Republicans aren't conservative in anything but name. They exist to obtain power and dismantle government, and one of their primary tools to that end has been a masterful, effective propaganda campaign (good enough that you, a liberal sympathizer, have used some of their talking points on this thread), and Limbaugh et al. are a part of that campaign which started with Nixon aides in the 70s.

Their role is as important as it is dishonest.
posted by teece at 10:14 PM on October 4, 2005

What are we even talking about anymore?

I thought we were talking about nun-fucking. Jeeze you guys; keep it together.
posted by Stauf at 11:05 PM on October 4, 2005

so I guess I'm the only one who caught Mr Crash Davis' Quonsar/Minya flameout reference?

fucking classic. crash davis may be the funniest mefite.
posted by shmegegge at 11:12 PM on October 4, 2005

but some people were particularly nasty in that thread.

Well, hat maui, it was a joke. I'm sorry.
posted by Kwantsar at 12:55 AM on October 5, 2005

I thought eriko articulated his feelings well within an agressive environment. His personal attacks on other posters were responses to attacks on him and didn't fundamentally derail his point. More interesting than the personal name-calling anyway.
posted by alasdair at 3:29 AM on October 5, 2005

Schmegegge - scirius was actually first Not that mr_crash_davis isn't a funny guy too.
posted by adamvasco at 4:02 AM on October 5, 2005

sciurus - whoops - dyslexia rikes stagain.
posted by adamvasco at 4:04 AM on October 5, 2005

I like broccolli.
posted by Frasermoo at 4:38 AM on October 5, 2005

Besides, how is someone who posts something like this

So I'm an anti-elist elist? Makes my head hurt, but whatever, dosen't change my point. Admit it, when someone says "rural America," you see visions of cross-burning toothless moonshine-swilling troglodytes. And that stereotype is as media fed as any stereotype of blacks, jews or gays. But we seem to swallow it a lot easier, because it flatters us.

To someone who said this:

Other than eriko, I think most liberals would support structural change that would help these folks. But I'd also like us to do so in a way that makes clear that this sort of help is the type everyone deserves. Because I don't want people to get the help they need and just turn their backs on others. More than anything else, this is not okay.

supposed to be held up as some paragon of 'elevating the tone'? Jonmc had no problems attacking me personally in this thread just because I dared defended eriko in a callout thread attacking him.
posted by delmoi at 5:34 AM on October 5, 2005

I was walking by the free-swag table at the office yesterday and saw five small bottled samples of DUNKIN' DONUTS COLOGNE! Is this the worst idea ever or what?

I know it's a derail, but there's no way to insert a post right after all the donut comments.

There, back to political snarking...
posted by AJaffe at 6:16 AM on October 5, 2005

I was walking by the free-swag table at the office yesterday and saw five small bottled samples of DUNKIN' DONUTS COLOGNE! Is this the worst idea ever or what?

Not if you like getting attacked by BEES.
posted by delmoi at 6:39 AM on October 5, 2005

Metafilter: Not if you like getting attacked by bees.
posted by AJaffe at 7:38 AM on October 5, 2005

That sounds like a lot of fun for us. Perhaps you can do it in all caps, too?

Oh, I think not. I'm British, you know. We like understatement. Even in our overstatement.

This whole sad thread is an example of how politics poisons this site. After the election Matt said he was going to start zapping political posts, and for a while he did, and it made Metafilter a nicer place.

Woah, I'm certainly glad I wasn't around then. That doesn't sound very nice for those of us who think "nice" isn't very nice.
posted by Decani at 8:06 AM on October 5, 2005

Woah, I'm certainly glad I wasn't around then. That doesn't sound very nice for those of us who think "nice" isn't very nice.

I don't have a problem with niceness, or polite requests for niceness. Angry demands for niceness, though, are unproductive.
posted by delmoi at 8:18 AM on October 5, 2005

Decani,

You're British? You just come across as...so American.
posted by Bugbread at 8:20 AM on October 5, 2005

AJaffe: In the whole context of this thread, maybe it should read
MetaFilter: like getting attacked by bees

just heaping some more senseless drivel onto the pile
posted by Godbert at 8:25 AM on October 5, 2005

AJaffe writes "Not if you like getting attacked by bees."

I'd welcome it after reading through this thread.
posted by OmieWise at 8:25 AM on October 5, 2005

Godbert, I'd thought of that, but it just seemed too easy...
posted by AJaffe at 8:46 AM on October 5, 2005

Metafilter: Kept alive by the feeding tube of snark.
(Sorry. I hate the taglines too...)
posted by klangklangston at 8:48 AM on October 5, 2005

Metafilter: Sorry. I hate the taglines, too.
posted by shmegegge at 9:20 AM on October 5, 2005

You're British? You just come across as...so American.

All right, that's it. Outside, in the car park, NOW!
posted by Decani at 10:23 AM on October 5, 2005

Sorry, I meant the parking lot.
posted by Decani at 10:24 AM on October 5, 2005

I try to be nice to everyone but you are still a bunch of wankers sometimes. I'm always great however, just so's you know. I'll join Decani in the par cark since he is an avowed wuss and I am an official internet hard man.

longbaugh - bringing English soccer hooligan violence to the internet since 1991*

*not really
posted by longbaugh at 11:53 AM on October 5, 2005

Metafilter: Sorry, I meant the parking lot.
posted by delmoi at 12:55 PM on October 5, 2005