Can we get some moderation or is this just a free-for-all?

December 5, 2005 2:14 PM

Too much of this discussion is noise and pathetic behavior. It is really difficult to have a discussion when several people seem more interested in directly insulting the poster. Can we get some moderation or is this just a free-for-all? (There is more inside).
posted by dios to etiquette/policy at 2:14 PM (56 comments total)

I was going to let it go when it was just the insults aimed directly at me; I have grown used to them as they happen in every thread I am in and the moderators seem to exhibit no interest in addressing it. I flagged them and moved on. Of course, the flagging has, once again, shown itself to be a completely pointless exercise. But then kablam seemed to spend a good bit of time trying to construct a post based on his (or her) opinion. The same substance-free noise and insults followed that, such as matteo's "masturbation" comment. From there, we have kablam's motivations called into question because he/she "doesn't return to the thread." Well, after the response, why would he/she? And what we see is a recurrent pattern of petulant behavior that feeds on itself.

What is truly amazing to me is that I was addressing the post in question and, yet, after several people insulted me and offered "you're dumb/wrong" as the totality of their disagreement, I got accused of shitting on the thread and trolling. Specifically, the user phaedon seemed intent on doing nothing but shouting me down and calling me names, and somehow tried to drag in a completely unrelated thread into this one. But I am the one that is said to be shitting in it. (Can anyone still deny that such ad hominem comments directed at me are anything but politically driven?)

Is it that hard to stay on a substantive level? One can agree or disagree with a post or comment on a substantive level. One can take issue with the framing or purpose of a post or comment on a substantive level. But is it not wrong to be abjectly personal with the insults? Offering no signal at all, and nothing but noise seems behavior we ought to discourage and moderate against. I have taken my share of grief, some of which was probably deserved. I have gone to lengths to try to hold myself to a higher standard, but that doesn't stop the insults. And it is getting increasingly tiring and there never seems to be any attempt to moderate against.

If we can't discuss these issues substantively, should we be discussing them at all?
posted by dios at 2:14 PM on December 5, 2005

Note: I'm not saying all the discussion was bad. Just that too much of it was.
posted by dios at 2:16 PM on December 5, 2005

One comment further, then I will let this take its natural course: the thread I listed above is not offered out of a broader context. The same sort of behavior that is exhibited there is exhibited in almost every thread I can recall reading and commenting on. Thus, this is more an additive thing; today my patience is thinner. So please don't assume that I am suggesting this is one bad isolated incident.
posted by dios at 2:23 PM on December 5, 2005

Someone posts an impolite opinion of your analysis and you repeatedly engage them in discussion about it. Now you're opening a whole other thread to talk about it. Didn't your momma ever tell you not to give the bullies the satisfaction or any similar advise? Your problem is that "flag it and move on" doesn't work, it's that you leave off the "and move on" part.
posted by phearlez at 2:25 PM on December 5, 2005

What insults were specifically directed at you?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 2:25 PM on December 5, 2005

Whew! For a second there (I clicked the link before reading the more inside), having read that:

dios posted "It is really difficult to have a discussion when several people seem more interested in directly insulting the poster"

Reading "the poster", I actually thought dios was calling out people making ad hominem attacks on y2karl.

(Thank dios he didn't; if that sort of civility surfaced here, I'd have had to repost some extension or something.)
posted by orthogonality at 2:26 PM on December 5, 2005

because with wet hair, they look like 5 year old boys!

no, wait...
posted by quonsar at 2:26 PM on December 5, 2005

Jesus christ, Dios.
posted by delmoi at 2:42 PM on December 5, 2005

Er, after reading your first comment I can see why you're upset. Matteo's comment was apparently deleted, though.

I'm not quite sure why you complain though; metafilter is what it is... If you have a specific complaint maybe it would be better to email matt or jess rather then posting Yet Another MeTa Post About How Much This Place Sucks. Everyone has ideas about how this place should be, in contrast to how it is, and complaints and soforth.
posted by delmoi at 2:56 PM on December 5, 2005

Reading "the poster", I actually thought dios was calling out people making ad hominem attacks on y2karl.

Heh, I thought the same thing and I was sooo confused but also soooo excited and so ready to get up and pour a glass of water.

Even so, dios has a point. Not that anything will change. I second the advice of phearlez. Screw 'em. You're going to have to live with that stuff. It's not going to stop. And in the end, I think this thread is just more ammo.

Another strategy would be to respond with dadaisms. That'll teach 'em. And yet another strategy would be to construct as many sentences in which you refer to them as 'em because as history has taught us, that always solves the problem.
posted by panoptican at 3:09 PM on December 5, 2005

From there, we have kablam's motivations called into question because he/she "doesn't return to the thread."

Well, he/she doesn't. Kablam typically posts something early on, it's proven to be factually incorrect, repeat ad infinitum. I was just pointing it out.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:16 PM on December 5, 2005

hey dios, shut the fuck up.
posted by keswick at 3:17 PM on December 5, 2005

Except for phaedon and stenseng, no one insulted you. And I would consider their insults weak by any measure. The rest of us attempted to address your factually incorrect rendition of the third item y2karl linked to, as well as your woeful misunderstanding ("allegations") of how the American representative democracy functions, upon which you decided to leave.
posted by Rothko at 3:20 PM on December 5, 2005

hey dios, shut the fuck up.

I've got a much better idea for you, keswick, you sweet troubled kid you. How about doing us all a favour and taking your own advice?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:33 PM on December 5, 2005

If we can't discuss these issues substantively, should we be discussing them at all?

Think globally, act locally.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 3:33 PM on December 5, 2005

hey stravros, shut the fuck up.
posted by keswick at 3:33 PM on December 5, 2005

I don't think this thread got off to a very good start.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:35 PM on December 5, 2005

If you can't point out in a purely abstract and not-at-all confrontational way that the majority of MetaFilter readers are terrorist-loving fellow-traveler traitors to their country, what's the world coming to?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 3:43 PM on December 5, 2005

Too much of this discussion is noise and pathetic behavior.
posted by sergeant sandwich at 3:43 PM on December 5, 2005

dios, yes, it would be nicer if folks didn't insult you. But it might be worthwhile to devote some thought to why it happens "...in almost every thread [you] can recall reading and commenting on." In fact, this was one of the more civilized exchanges. You were arguing a pretty marginal position -- you've got to expect to be attacked. The attacks didn't look personal to me; they looked fair.

As for kablam -- s/he posted a screed loaded with statements of opinion and no supporting facts, and disappeared. Even I know kablam doesn't stick around to defend his/her screeds. Add to that the fact that it was clearly an exercise in wish-fulfillment fantasy, and you have the stage set for much mocking. Which did reliably ensue. No real news, there.
posted by lodurr at 3:43 PM on December 5, 2005

Dios isn't a lawyer but he plays one on metafilter.
posted by bardic at 3:45 PM on December 5, 2005

I don't think this thread got off to a very good start.

hey optimus, shut the f...

I keeeeeeed. I keeeeeed.
posted by tkchrist at 3:48 PM on December 5, 2005

Dios posted an interpretation of y2karl's 2nd article, one either deliberately or ignorantly narrow, inciteful and outright ludicrous, and then, when it was challenged, became immediately flustered and resentful.

Yet no attempt was made to explicate his position. A burst of Ciao and a slammed door.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, and several posters were needlessly, tediously insulting. But as a previous target of unprovoked attacks by Dios myself (on my poor "subconscious" no less), I can't help but wonder at witnessing his whining here.
posted by Haruspex at 3:51 PM on December 5, 2005

This thread is priceless--dios puts up three posts to derail a conversation that hasn't even happened. Oh, it's so tough to be him. Such a martyr for "substantive" discourse.
posted by bardic at 3:51 PM on December 5, 2005

dios, which comments in particular did you flag?

As for kablam, well, let's just say while you may feel it was a thoughtful comment, the overwhelming majority thought it was nonsense. Why do you think kablam's comment deserved better? Just because it was long?

As for your own comments, you can drop the act. Nobody buys it anymore. The reason why your comments are repeatedly met with widespread derision is because your comments are warrant little more widespread derision. I'm sure you know this perfectly well so, please, if you're going to persist on your crusade, at least have the good manners to drop the whole 'persecuted' bit. It's insulting to everybody who sees through your charade. You're not a Jew and this isn't 1930s Germany.
posted by nixerman at 4:04 PM on December 5, 2005

DIOS IS DHOYT
posted by interrobang at 4:07 PM on December 5, 2005

nixerman writes "[dois, y]ou're not a Jew and this isn't 1930s Germany."

I was hoping it was 30s Jerusalem, and we'd get to nail dios to a tree for Easter.
posted by orthogonality at 4:08 PM on December 5, 2005

hey stravros, shut the fuck up.

Alrighty, then.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:08 PM on December 5, 2005

tree are christmas. at easter we nail to bunnies.
posted by quonsar at 4:10 PM on December 5, 2005

hey quonsar, shut the fuck up.
posted by quonsar at 4:10 PM on December 5, 2005

Metafilter: Hey, shut the fuck up.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:11 PM on December 5, 2005

Now THAT'S a tagline I can get behind.
posted by keswick at 4:12 PM on December 5, 2005

Metafilter: You can drop the act.
posted by Rothko at 4:14 PM on December 5, 2005

All ya'll need to shut ye'er respective pie holes.
posted by delmoi at 4:17 PM on December 5, 2005

orthogonality, the thought crossed my mind. I was going to say I remember when we crucified narcissistic trouble-makers with martyr-complexes.
posted by nixerman at 4:18 PM on December 5, 2005

Metafilter: Nailing everyone to trees.
posted by lalochezia at 4:19 PM on December 5, 2005

dios loves this victim complex shit. Threads like this probably just leave him salivating.
posted by xmutex at 4:19 PM on December 5, 2005

that's not saliva...
posted by MikeKD at 4:24 PM on December 5, 2005

This messy wanking lacks the focus and structure that I desire in my optico-omphalogical grey streaks.
posted by cortex at 4:39 PM on December 5, 2005

I dunno. dios does get his share of abuse. So perhaps he’s a bit sensitive to it.
Here though I think the problem was a bit of misunderstanding. dios was perhaps reading his own personal extrapolation of what the author was saying - as the author’s thesis.
No one really pointed that out until some of the “...no it isn’t”-ing began.

I think we - that is all of us here - often forget that communication is something one has to work at. It’s not winning an argument or feeling superior or vindicating anything. The objective IS the discourse.
Whether for amusement or information or in service of the truth. We post for that purpose.

As the solution to free speech you don’t like is more free speech (cliché I know, but true) - so too is the solution to understanding.
But sometimes it takes a thicker hide than we have on a particular day. Maybe dios got a traffic ticket. Maybe someone in his family is sick. For whatever reason today he’s not up to taking hits.
So while I’m saying it is forgivable to bail from the thread because you feel like you’re getting stomped, it is not then justifiable to claim the moral high ground.
If your point is worth making, make it. If not, if it’s adequately countered, cede it.

In some regards I’m countering phearlez ‘s advice.
You should defend and illustrate your position and work hard to understand the positions of others.
Of course, any fool can find something wrong with anything - that’s why their fools. You don’t have to counter every one line - “no it isn’t. You’re wrong. You suck!” comment, but at the very least make the concession that your idea may be wrong or your interpretation may be lacking.

Ultimately - who cares what a bunch of anonymous people think of your illusory persona on the internet?
You wouldn’t be here if you weren’t interested in trading in ideas in the first place. (There are exceptions among us, of course).
And that’s what matters. Interesting concepts. Trading them. Modifying them. In a world where no one cares about your credentials or experience or whatever.
You could be George Clooney or Adam Savage but here only the idea matters and if it’s bullshit, you get called on it - whether that bullshit is poor expression or wrong headedness or maybe just a perspective not seen, it all comes out in the wash.
But you only learn if you stick around.
posted by Smedleyman at 4:45 PM on December 5, 2005

I was pretty happy, actually, that dios was driven out of that thread. His "contribution" consisted of blaming the failure in Iraq on the American people, as usual aimed at maximum disruption to the thread.

He's just a troll, ignore him or drive him away.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 4:54 PM on December 5, 2005

The whole site is noise. A bunch of hippies posting I-told-you so articles on a website.
Fucking pathetic. Admit it.
posted by Joeforking at 5:15 PM on December 5, 2005

DIOS IS DHOYT

they certainly seem to have the same shit list, but dhoyt was more interesting (I can picture him in drag & talking in a Norman-Bates-as-Mommy high-pitched voice when he posted as jenleigh, and that makes me laugh, kinda) and they seem to have the same problem with teh gays (a problem that, let's keep it in mind, got dios a timeout for stating that a gay user was sucking y2karl's cock -- nice manners for somebody who's so quick to whine about the baaaaaaaaaaad lefties who insult him, by the way).

oh, and dios, I loved it how you once dragged me in a thread where I wasn't even commenting calling me, of all things, "a McCartyhite" -- which, from a fascist like you, should actually be some kind of compliment, I guess.

anyway, keep whining. not that I particularly enjoy the squealing, but just like in jendhoyt's case, whatever rocks your boat, man (or girl). whatever rocks your boat.
posted by matteo at 5:15 PM on December 5, 2005

Well said, Smedleyman.

Dios, you bring this on yourself by trying to debate instead of discuss. Folks with something to say (and you clearly are one) can generally express their ideas instead of dissecting of your previous posts. Ignore the folks with nothing to say.

Your initial thesis (which you incorrectly attributed to the author) was bunk. That doesn't bother me. Defending your fairly obviously mistaken notion through a pointless debate started a bit of an annoying derail. No big deal. Saying you're taking your ball and going home, that makes me think you're taking yourself a little seriously for an illusory internet persona.
posted by McGuillicuddy at 5:18 PM on December 5, 2005

I forgot: dios, you didn't contribute anything in that thread, except a passive-aggressive, cowardly suggestion that pacifists are effectively aiding the insurgents. keep patting yourself on the back about it.

see, the problem with your comments is, you're a passive aggressive ParisParamus -- but not nearly as likeable as PP.
posted by matteo at 5:20 PM on December 5, 2005

posted by 3.2.3 at 5:35 PM on December 5, 2005

"His "contribution" consisted of blaming the failure in Iraq on the American people, as usual aimed at maximum disruption to the thread." - posted by lupus_yonderboy

Yeah. I didn’t see that. One can be wrong without being a troll or aiming at disruption. The perspective is valid and it’s a reasonable conclusion to come to given what he chose to work with.

That it doesn’t work is irrelevent. If you read his posts he’s literally minded and tends to fixate on structure. Understanding that part of it isn’t hard. I get WHY dios posted what he posted. He has a certain perspective and attempted to make a logical connection with the article.
He wasn’t putting a square peg in a round hole there. He was equating “political will” with “popular support.”
BFD. He’s wrong. So?

Same problem I have with people who post in threads they don’t like “This thread sucks.” Well, if you give a shit, post more and critique it. Give an honest answer. If not, the hell with it. Who cares?

I don’t get how people who probably are against striking their children (not that that's a bad thing) have no qualms about casting aspersions when someone makes an error that - given their posting history - they are prone to.

I’m prone to hyperbole - people tend to cut me slack. Perhaps I’m nicer than dios or I cut others slack or whatever. Fair enough. Tit for tat. But the initial understanding is there. We all know when Smedleyman says his cock is two feet long he’s probably not serious.
(It’s short of two feet by about 11 inches).

Same kind of thing dios should get. He’s literal minded. He makes those kinds of mistakes. When he does, people should recognize it or they’re just as guilty of fucking up the thread as he is.
(Given of course they have experiance with it)

I am in direct disagreement with dios on this particular topic here though. You don’t cut and run if you have something you honestly think is worthwhile to say. (Which reiterates my earlier point) And I’m certainly not defending his snarkiness. Just that one select point. Which applies universally. dios should also cut some folks some slack. And of course what he sees as noise and trolling isn’t necessarially the case either.

But anyway I came back to this thread to point out no one has shit on his Precision Lawn Chair Marching Dads front page post.
So, y’know, the whole persecution thing...
posted by Smedleyman at 5:39 PM on December 5, 2005

The same sort of behavior that is exhibited there is exhibited in almost every thread I can recall reading and commenting on

read this illuminating sentence over and over and say to yourself, in the mirror, "yeah, dude, the problem is metafilter, not me."
posted by Hat Maui at 10:23 PM on December 5, 2005

what matteo said.

dios, you are a pussy.
posted by phaedon at 11:40 PM on December 5, 2005

Specifically, the user phaedon seemed intent on doing nothing but shouting me down and calling me names, and somehow tried to drag in a completely unrelated thread into this one. But I am the one that is said to be shitting in it. (Can anyone still deny that such ad hominem comments directed at me are anything but politically driven?)

garbage. on an intellectual level, you are a waste of your parents' money.

if, for some wild reason, i have underestimated your sway on this website, i humbly accept mathowie's moderation even if it is based on the notion that your ego requires massaging. but beyond that, i simply dont give a fuck. why should i? your comments are weak.
posted by phaedon at 11:57 PM on December 5, 2005

phaedon, you are a flaccid cock
posted by shoos at 3:22 AM on December 6, 2005

hat_maui: no one has shit on his Precision Lawn Chair Marching Dads front page post. So, y’know, the whole persecution thing...

I flagged it as noise and moved on. Cuz, you know, BotW and all....
posted by lodurr at 3:26 AM on December 6, 2005

Er, soryy, I meant Smeldeyman. (See, no cofefe yte.)
posted by lodurr at 3:26 AM on December 6, 2005

smedleyman: (It’s short of two feet by about 11 inches).

He's probably not serious about that....

I had to get something right.
posted by lodurr at 3:28 AM on December 6, 2005

It's true that many MeFi users occasionally (and Dios more than most, perhaps) make the mistake of insulting people who have posted ideas they disagree with. It would be better to constructively point out the errors in their posts.

Calling a user a pussy, a cock, a Zionist prick (I did that, though only once, I'm happy to say, and I did apologize later) and so on is just bad technique. It reflects badly on the site, on us as people, and on humanity in general.

But with a post like Kablam's in that thread - dozens of paragraphs of utter dribble - nobody can be bothered to respond to ALL of it. It would take forever. Many people were very charitable in their responses to it, and did indeed just take a couple of sentences and point out why it was incorrect.

In cases like Kablam's post, it does seem to me acceptable to say "batshit insane" and leave it at that. It's accurate, and encourages the rest of the thread to continue constructively, without a diversion into debate about every sentence of some poor guy's soon-to-be-regretted incoherent ramble.
posted by cleardawn at 2:30 PM on December 6, 2005

I know I'm still new, but it seems as tho almost every topic turns into a bashing party. So...I guess either expect it and live with it, or move on.
posted by Todd Lokken at 9:48 AM on December 13, 2005