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Trying to "out" a MeFian in meatspace?
December 7, 2005 12:26 PM   Subscribe

In AskMe, CMichaelCook attempts to out the offline identity of a MeFite. I don't know if it's correct or not, but either way it seems completely out of place in that thread.
posted by raedyn to MetaFilter-Related at 12:26 PM (261 comments total) 3 users marked this as a favorite

And yes, I flagged it.
posted by raedyn at 12:27 PM on December 7, 2005


Yeah, that's not right...
posted by SeizeTheDay at 12:30 PM on December 7, 2005


Yeah, ikkyu2's initial comment was deeply unsettling, but public outing is over the line. It's also not helpful. If you think ethical rules or laws are being violated, go to the relevant state licensing board; don't post on Metafilter.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 12:30 PM on December 7, 2005


The spite is strong in that one.
posted by cortex at 12:30 PM on December 7, 2005


Wow, what a dickhead.
posted by selfnoise at 12:32 PM on December 7, 2005


Wow, turns out ikkyu2 is a giant asshole.

In case the post gets deleted, here's why CMichaelCook was pissed: Your intentional obscurity creates a significant risk of patient harm. Not only because an order might be legitimately misunderstood, but also because you may not be available for immediate clarification, which could delay life-saving treatment. And should harm come to a patient who decides to sue for malpractice, such an order in "medical Latin or something" would help to make an excellent case against you and be enough to delight any malpractice attorney.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:34 PM on December 7, 2005


You mean by posting his name which is given in his profile? Or that he lives in CA (also in his profile)? Or that he's a doctor, which — that's right, boys and girls — is also in his profile?
posted by IshmaelGraves at 12:34 PM on December 7, 2005


Yeah, I removed it, that's not cool to try and post someone's real life medical license that's at best, an educated guess.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 12:35 PM on December 7, 2005


Why was the medical license number necessary? And what were we supposed to do with it? Report the guy, mob justice style?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 12:37 PM on December 7, 2005


You should do some clicking around before posting a callout. The supposed "attempt to out the offline identity" is no such a thing - CMC is just copying data from ikkyu2 profile page (except for the Medical License number, whch is probably public available somewhere).

And while I don't think Ask Mefi is the right place for such exchanges, I won't judge one comment without context so I refrain even to flag it. Besides, the question itself was somewhat inflammatory to begin with.
posted by nkyad at 12:37 PM on December 7, 2005


He hasn't acted out or even been anything but conversant in his (very slim) posting history. Interesting that he has 8 comments scattered across the blue starting with his joining in Nov. 2004, but he's a relative (and comparitavely much more talkative) newbie to AskMe, having first commented in the green in September of this year.

None of that is either here nor there, really, but it does frame this vigilante jab as being out of the norm.
posted by cortex at 12:37 PM on December 7, 2005


It wasn't necessary, but I certainly agree with CMC that ikkyu2's actions aren't consistent with someone who has his patients' best interests at stake but rather with someone looking to feel like a big shot. Fuck those nurses and pharmacists, right, ikkyu? You and the other M.D.'s can run a hospital all by yourselves. Will you be taking out the trash on Thursday or is that for some Mexican nobody without an M.D.?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:40 PM on December 7, 2005


nykad, the attempt to specifically collate identifying information -- including, notably, a medical license number not available in his profile -- is absolutely an "attempt to out the offline identity". It's a rude, aggressive thing to do.
posted by cortex at 12:40 PM on December 7, 2005


Yeah, ikkyu2's comment really shocked me too, then again he claim to be a republican(!!) so that kind of elitism isn't really that strange.
posted by delmoi at 12:42 PM on December 7, 2005


We've seen that, and worse, here in metatalk. Why the double standard?
posted by crunchland at 12:42 PM on December 7, 2005


In retrospect I see why he was a bit pissed. Still not very cool though.
posted by selfnoise at 12:42 PM on December 7, 2005


Some comments really strike home with some people and I guess CMichaelCook, based on something in his personal history, just got set off by ikkyu2's comments.

I'll admit that ikkyu2s comments seem to depict him as a not-very-nice person but on the other hand they were on-topic for the question - providing for a viewpoint from the other perspective.
posted by vacapinta at 12:42 PM on December 7, 2005


er "...he does claim to.." Pardona
posted by delmoi at 12:44 PM on December 7, 2005


Way to jump to all sorts of conclusions without letting the guy defend himself, Optimus Chyme. See, what you're doing isn't "intelligent", nor do your judgments make you superior; they simply show how quickly you are to draw superficial conclusions.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 12:44 PM on December 7, 2005


delmoi: Do you think he's faking that Republican thing?
posted by lodurr at 12:50 PM on December 7, 2005


Definitely a "fuck it." I do this kind of thing myself sometimes - write an order in medical Latin or something - precisely to remind nurses and pharmacists who think to upbraid me exactly who has the M.D. degree and who is paid to take orders from the person with the M.D. degree.

Apparently pulling them aside or calling them on the phone isn't good enough, he has to involve his patients in his little passive-aggressive drama. Pardon me if I find that unprofessional and immature.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:51 PM on December 7, 2005


Providing the medical license number was over the top because it lowers the bar for mob justice -- it comes down perilously close to pandering territory. "I won't report you, mister doctor, but here's your medical license so some other outraged soul can."

Agreed, it was a pretty smug and ugly thing ikkyu2 (proudly) confessed to doing (and his followup wasn't much better), but the reaction was unwarranted.
posted by lodurr at 12:53 PM on December 7, 2005


We've seen that, and worse, here in metatalk. Why the double standard?

Lawyers and doctors commenting on ask metafilter is a touchy subject and I think we're benefiting from the few that are willing to talk openly and answer questions. Having someone aggressively call out a doctor answering questions (and yeah, the doctor in question demonstrated a crappy attitude deserving of something, but not this) by trying to identify them publicly sets an awful precedent. We're not even sure if that's the right medical license. We're supposed to report his behavior? What happens the next time a doctor or lawyer posts an answer someone doesn't like, should they be disbarred or have their medical license pulled as well?

The sniping in metatalk that leads to people's real names showing up also sucks, but it's less of a problem than the possibility of having to ban any and all medical or legal questions from ask mefi. I don't think what happened today on ask mefi and what has happened in the past on metatalk is really the same thing.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 12:58 PM on December 7, 2005


Damn, CMichaelCook did it again. Somebody prolly needs to have a talk with him.
posted by lodurr at 12:59 PM on December 7, 2005


To be clear, I'm glad Matt pulled the offending comment. But my repect for ikkyu2 has gone from very very high to absolutely none whatsoever.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:00 PM on December 7, 2005


delmoi: Do you think he's faking that Republican thing?

I didn't think a real republican would have really complained about all of that stuff, so yes it seemed like he might have been faking to me. He also said he was registered as a democrat in order to vote in local primaries (which is probably the only way to affect the outcome where he lives, but still).

Anyway, who knows.
posted by delmoi at 1:01 PM on December 7, 2005


As a side note: how hilarious was that question :P
posted by delmoi at 1:02 PM on December 7, 2005


It was a terrible thing to do, but ikkyu2's comment was horribly arrogant, not deserving of an outing, but perhaps a good smackdown. It surprises me as well, because I generally find ikkyu2's comments helpful and pleasant. Who knew that he was so arrogant.

As for putting nurses and pharmacists in their place, well sometimes they do know more than the docs. That would especially apply to the pharmacists when it comes to things like drug interactions etc. You are a team. Each person brings certain skills to the table. Respect each other and things will go better. Putting people into their place is the sign of a weak character, not a strong one.
posted by caddis at 1:02 PM on December 7, 2005 [1 favorite]


Damn, CMichaelCook did it again. Somebody prolly needs to have a talk with him.
posted by lodurr at 12:59 PM PST on December 7 [!]


Whoa, some people don't know when to quit.
posted by caddis at 1:04 PM on December 7, 2005


We've seen that, and worse, here in metatalk. Why the double standard? - crunchland

AskMe is suppsed to be about providing answers to the question not about attacking other posters, number one. And also because I thought (and I might be wrong) that the 'outing' stuff in MeTa got deleted.
posted by raedyn at 1:05 PM on December 7, 2005


The smarmy pseudo-outing bullying-thing made me yelp, too.

ikkyu2's comments/attitudes have annoyed me plenty of times, but I'm happy to recognize that different personalities are part of the purpose of this place. And I don't think that an offhand arrogant remark from ikkyu2 necessarily is a valid basis for judgement on his entire philosophy of patient care.
posted by desuetude at 1:06 PM on December 7, 2005


"What have you done for me lately?" syndrome...
posted by Rothko at 1:06 PM on December 7, 2005


Who knew that he was so arrogant.

I've had my suspicions for a while. Oh, well.
posted by Gator at 1:10 PM on December 7, 2005


This really makes the case for complete anonymity (and why I try hard to keep my identity anonymous). There are far too many vindictive people on this website for anyone to expose their identity. There will always be someone who would take joy in trying to cause real life problems for another person based on a digitized disagreement. If you think what someone said was wrong, explain it to him. Don't try to ruin his life over a disagreement.
posted by dios at 1:10 PM on December 7, 2005


I think I'll just chalk this up to ikkyu2 having had a really bad day and sprouting with the rhetoric. I'm sure I couldn't judge his real clinical worth without being in the shoes of the people he must interact with in professional life.
That said, I've always found that direct communication to be the best form of ummm.. communicating a problem - over say, going all obtuse and dead language on people whose contributions are important to the overall project I'm working on.

And what CMichaelCook did was totally uncalled for. Ever.
posted by peacay at 1:13 PM on December 7, 2005


After reading the responses in that thread, I am not so sure I would want ikkyu2 working on me. You want your doctor to have the self confidence to make the critical decisions in care, but you do not want them to be so arrogant that they will dismiss valuable information from other care givers because they feel those people are beneath them. When I make a decision I welcome pushback from those who are supposedly less expert, as long as it is given respectfully. If they see something wrong about to be done, for goodness sake I hope they speak up and avert trouble. If they are merely misinformed we will work it out. If they are right, well thank you for saving my ass.
posted by caddis at 1:17 PM on December 7, 2005 [1 favorite]


C'mon, dios, you don't try *that* hard. If you did, you wouldn't put a city in your profile or allude to living in that area in messages. Not that I have any desire to do it (nor can I think of why I'd want to), but I expect you'd be pretty easy to "out". ("Hey, guess what I found out: dios is a lawyer!!!!!")

But you're right, in practical terms there should probably be at least enough of an identity bar to make someone work for it -- so they have time to think twice about what they're about to do. 'Course, that just whets some folks' appetites. (And anyway, I don't really follow my own advice, so...)
posted by lodurr at 1:19 PM on December 7, 2005


It's my first trip to the principal's office, and I guess some explanation is in order.

Obviously, I was disturbed my ikkyu2's comments, for the very reasons stated in my post: they pointed to an approach to medicine that puts ego and arrogance above patient treatment and safety, and that chills me to the bone. And yeah, there's personal history here.

The full name came directly from ikkyu's profile, and the license number from California's board of medicine site, an easy lookup and connection to make, seeing as he's the only one listed with that name. I have to admit, I wondered if posting the license number was a bit over-the-top, but decided to, like ikkyu2, said, "fuck it."

I re-submitted the post thinking I'd inadvertently done something to make it not appear -- I'm multi-tasking at work here. I never thought the watchers here in MeLand could be so observant or speedy in their response.

So, mea culpas for the license number and the re-post. I've learned my lesson. However, I gotta stand behind everything else.
posted by CMichaelCook at 1:19 PM on December 7, 2005


A MeTa rarity, an apology - well done Mr. Cook.
posted by caddis at 1:24 PM on December 7, 2005


I would like to preemptively out myself as an arrogant asshole.

I'm not licensed to do anything, but don't go thinking my comments are any good.

I can only hurt you, baby.
posted by Marnie at 1:30 PM on December 7, 2005


and back to ikkyu2, from his journal, Sept. 29:
To balance the tale of medical woe:

I had a patient in the epilepsy monitoring unit lately. Her spells sounded like migraine to me, and to the professor I was working with, who had referred her in. She started with expanding visual scotoma, then progressed to nausea, photophonophobia, a "drugged feeling," and some autonomic symptoms like chills and sweats. Typical migraine.

However, her husband described trembling and occasional lapses of consciousness and inappropriate speech during these spells. So we were worried about epilepsy.

A student nurse was working with the patient during her stay, took the vital signs during one of these spells, and noticed that the patient was diaphoretic and flushed with a temp of 34.7 degrees. So she checked the blood sugar. It was 36; although there is some controversy over what is normal, 36 is far far below the lower limit of normal by any standards.

Hypoglycemia! Thank goodness for student nurses; us brain guys were barking up the wrong trees.


So on the one hand he feels the need to put them in their place when they challenge his superior knowledge, yet he appreciates their patient saving talents. Odd.
posted by caddis at 1:33 PM on December 7, 2005


Personally, I wouldn't my doctor looking down on his Patients with that kind of arrogance, on the other hand he's very good at explaining thins such that people can understand what he's talking about. Oh well.
posted by delmoi at 1:33 PM on December 7, 2005


Hypoglycemia! Thank goodness for student nurses; us brain guys were barking up the wrong trees.

I assume by "brain guys" he meant "neurologists" not "guys with brains" :P
posted by delmoi at 1:35 PM on December 7, 2005


I'm reminded of the Edith Wharton novel The House of Mirth, wherein she describes how only the pandering, wanna-climb, nouveau-riche throw grand, multi-course dinners with all the trim. The blue-blooded rich don't lower themselves to making that effort for others. They dont' have to please anyone, nor do they have to display their wealth to you. You know. You fucking know how wealthy they are. How do you know? You know because they're that fucking wealthy. You know.

I am rather shocked to hear an MD say that he sometimes writes prescriptions in the wrong language to protect patients' lives, though. How the fuck does that work?
posted by scarabic at 1:38 PM on December 7, 2005


Oh, for heaven's sake. "precisely to remind nurses and pharmacists who think to upbraid me" is not the same as "for shits and giggles." Lay off.
posted by occhiblu at 1:43 PM on December 7, 2005


ikkyu2 has always impressed me with good answers and comments. I was put off by his comments in that thread, but I'm not at all sure that they constitute enough to radically change my opinion of him. I am surprised, however, by the tone in this post in which something that seems beyond the pale, the attempt to out him, has not only been condoned by many, but ikkyu2's journal has been mined for validation of poor opinions of him. It seems a bit creepy.

Especially as people have at the same time suggested that they have respected him previously. It seems that the distance between respect and tarring is not very far.

CMC-thanks for the explanation.
posted by OmieWise at 1:45 PM on December 7, 2005


It seems that the distance between respect and tarring is not very far.

What have you done for me lately?
posted by Rothko at 1:47 PM on December 7, 2005


Optimus Chyme expounding on assholes, unprofessionalism and immaturity. now that's irony.
posted by quonsar at 1:51 PM on December 7, 2005


occhiblu - It's clear from many of his posts (even this one) that he genuinely values life and takes his job very seriously. I have no doubt that he's right about the issues he raise. I just don't see how what he said makes any sense.
posted by scarabic at 1:53 PM on December 7, 2005


Lordy, that was interesting. But I agree with the person who observed that ikkyu2 is a monumental asshole, or words to that effect. Somehow I missed his loathsome remark in the original thread, which is probably just as well given the mood I was in at the time.

If I worked under a self-important jerkrod like that I'd make it a daily "must-do" to "upbraid" the bastard, just to wind him up.
posted by Decani at 1:57 PM on December 7, 2005


but ikkyu2's journal has been mined for validation of poor opinions of him

No, actually, I did the mining and I was specifically looking for something positive. His comments in the thread today seem at odds with what I have seen in the past. As I said, I generally found him helpful and pleasant, not arrogant. Yet the comment today, oh boy. Then, here in his journal is a story which I take to show respect for a sharp nurse who diagnosed one of his patients. I find the dichotomy odd.
posted by caddis at 2:01 PM on December 7, 2005


scarabic: Sorry -- the "lay off" wasn't directed just at you.

The comments in the original thread were about hierarchy, and lack of respect for an established hierarchy. I assume he's talking about doing things to reinstate the chain-of-command, which presumably developed for a reason.

I'm hardly a "Go, top-down management!" type of person, but, as an example, at the dentist's office yesterday I was really very upset that hygienist cleaned my teeth and sent me out of the office without the dentist ever checking me over (which has always been the case with my previous dentists). They hygienist was nice and all, but I go to the dentist assuming the woman with the degree is going to be at least taking a cursory glance at me. I assume that most of us who see medical specialists make the same assumptions, or else we wouldn't be seeking them out. And if they don't have control of the situation, of our cases, then what's the point?
posted by occhiblu at 2:02 PM on December 7, 2005


I totally agree. There is a definite issue there. I hope I can say without sounding like a jerk that I have had nurses/hygenists say things that constitute judgment calls and thought "they're working a little over their qualifications here." No argument about the core problem.
posted by scarabic at 2:08 PM on December 7, 2005


i really hope ikkuyu2 doesn't stop posting on ask.me because of people jumping on him for an offhand comment. I value and respect his contributions, and he seems to have a wide range of useful knowledge (that extends to guitars, even!)

internet vigilante justice is stupid. I've often worried about folks trying to email my work or something to get back at me for holding a particular opinion or making a particular statement. it's like punching someone because you don't like what they have to say.
posted by fishfucker at 2:11 PM on December 7, 2005


I had always assumed that ikkyu2 only played a "doctor" on the Internet and in real life was a lab tech or mental patient or something where he was exposed to a lot of medical information and jargon, which, combined with good search engine skills, made him sound reasonably convincing as an MD. He's been "outed" himself here at least a couple of times for giving wrong medical information (or at least challenged by other Internet "doctors"). So I'm very surprised to find out he apparently is actually a licensed MD.
posted by tiny purple fishes at 2:15 PM on December 7, 2005


I think ikkyu2 is one of our more reasonable frequent commenters in AskMe, so much so that when I read what he wrote earlier I figured either I had misinterpreted it, he was having an exceptionally bad day, or there is something about his world that I clearly don't understand where saying stuff like that is appropriate and/or important. Unless I see anything in his subsequent postings to indicate otherwise, I'm sticking to my opinion of him as a sane, reasoned poster here on MetaFilter. His bedside manner or management style doesn't impact me much here in the grey, blue and green and I figure the people he works with are the best judges of what sort of an employee, boss, or caregiver he is.
posted by jessamyn at 2:15 PM on December 7, 2005


Thanks CMC.

I can only assume ikkyu2 is having a bad day as he has always struck me as pleasant. Maybe thats his bedside manner and in the staff room he lets it all out. I can only imagine the stresses he deals with in a hospital setting, but if he is reading this, I'd remind him the nurses and pharmacists also have very stressful jobs, they are well-educated professional human beings in their own right, they can make your life a lot easier and vice versa, your workgroups are a team with a hierarchy superimposed, not the other way around, and direct communication of authority is far better than the passive-aggressive medical latin route (and maybe the orderly has a degree in classics, who knows?).
posted by Rumple at 2:15 PM on December 7, 2005


Agree that ikkyu2 has made great contributions to AskMe in the past.

Also, lots of great doctors are sort of jerks.
posted by Mid at 2:16 PM on December 7, 2005


So on the one hand he feels the need to put them in their place when they challenge his superior knowledge, yet he appreciates their patient saving talents. Odd.

Is it really that odd? People are complex and self-contradicting. As much as I'd like to be a constant, unfailing rock of virtue and earnestness 24/7, I can't pull it off.

It could be that the contrast between his cited journal entry and his comment in the thread are two independent peeks into one utterly normal (and hence complicated, flexible, mood-swung) mind.

Anybody here managed to never say/think/do something lousy to people they otherwise get along with and even depend on? Anybody here who has never, ever had a bad day? Can we get a show of hands?
posted by cortex at 2:24 PM on December 7, 2005


(And man, that last paragraph came off a lot more obnoxious than I'd like. Let the record show that I wasn't intending to be so preachy when I set out. Point stands, though.)
posted by cortex at 2:32 PM on December 7, 2005


What jessamyn said.
posted by amro at 2:33 PM on December 7, 2005


FWIW, I think this is a case of someone having an exceptionally crappy day and taking it out on ask.mefi. Ikkyu2 is a remarkably nice guy and while I'll admit that some people are decidedly different in their professional lives than in their personal ones, I don't think this is qualification for the asshole stamp.
posted by youcancallmeal at 2:40 PM on December 7, 2005


It's clear that ikkyu2 is one of those self-important dickhead bosses in addition to being a medical doctor. I doubt that's a rarity. But yeah, it's like CMichaelCook was reading my mind.
posted by puke & cry at 2:41 PM on December 7, 2005


"Lawyers and doctors commenting on ask metafilter is a touchy subject and I think we're benefiting from the few that are willing to talk openly and answer questions."

Yeah, that makes sense, until one of them is "having a bad day" or whatever and decides to give out some shitty advice in pig latin just to remind everyone exactly who has the degree or the Mercedes-Benz or the personalized parking stall with a gold star on it.

If I had previously been inclined to follow the advice of someone who'd be that petty to people whom he actually has to work with face-to-face day after day, I'd sure be taking any further answers with a giant fucking grain of salt.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:43 PM on December 7, 2005


Well then he's having a bad two days considering he came back and reinforced his comment of the previous day . . . .
posted by jamesonandwater at 2:45 PM on December 7, 2005


they changed the lock on the class IV med cabinet again.
posted by quonsar at 2:50 PM on December 7, 2005


Boy, speaking as someone who does actually work with doctors on a somewhat regular basis, that comment didn't surprise me in the least. Just sayin'.
posted by Skot at 2:55 PM on December 7, 2005


mathowie writes "Yeah, I removed it, that's not cool to try and post someone's real life medical license that's at best, an educated guess."

Gee Matt, when I got outed, you didn't even reply to my emailed pleas to remove my name. And apparently went so far as to tell Jessamyn not to remove the outing comments. I guess I should have gotten an MD.
posted by orthogonality at 3:07 PM on December 7, 2005


Apparently many people were miffed by ikkyu2's comments, but few commented in AskMe about their feelings re: ikkyu2's response. I think this is good, and it suggests that "self policing" is working fairly well over there.
posted by raedyn at 3:07 PM on December 7, 2005


Hmm. For those of you who haven't gone through the agony of a loved one succumbing to a terminal illness, I can assure you that nurses and nurse's assistants will spend much more time comforting, cleaning, and consoling your friend or relative than will any doctor. You'll remember a lot more about them than you will the MD's who are late for golf dates.

ikkyu is a foot-wide, shit-smeared asshole.
posted by bardic at 3:16 PM on December 7, 2005


My mother, who died of cancer while in the hospital, spent a great deal of her time complaining about how fucking insane all the nurses were driving her. They do important work, but this idea that all nurses are saints who never do a thing to annoy anyone is getting a bit out of hand, here. No one's perfect. I hardly expect that everyone in this thread has dealt with *every* *single* conflict in his or her life in the approved adult, "Let's talk things over," active-listening, now-let's-all-hug manner either.
posted by occhiblu at 3:21 PM on December 7, 2005


Gee Matt, when I got outed, you didn't even reply to my emailed pleas to remove my name. And apparently went so far as to tell Jessamyn not to remove the outing comments. I guess I should have gotten an MD.

Ortho, double-standards are ubiquitous. Don't know what to tell you, other than that.
posted by Rothko at 3:21 PM on December 7, 2005


I am surprised, however, by the tone in this post in which something that seems beyond the pale, the attempt to out him, has not only been condoned by many, but ikkyu2's journal has been mined for validation of poor opinions of him. It seems a bit creepy.

Just for the record, I didn't 'mine' his blog for anything, I liked Ikkyu2 posts here, and so I decided to check out his blog, that was a long time ago and I was shocked to find out he was a republican, and I was shocked to read that comment. I also don't have a "poor" opinion of him, I have a high opinion of him, tempered by a few minor things.
posted by delmoi at 3:24 PM on December 7, 2005


ikkyu is a foot-wide, shit-smeared asshole.

Oh, come one now. You're talking about a human being, here.
posted by cortex at 3:28 PM on December 7, 2005


Gee Matt, when I got outed, you didn't even reply to my emailed pleas to remove my name. And apparently went so far as to tell Jessamyn not to remove the outing comments.

Like I said upthread (I was trying to be vague but you just made it specific, so yes, it was in reference to you) the situation was different. You won't get disbarred or lose your medical license. You were also acting evasively on the site for no apparent reason and invited the reaction it got. The example that prompted this thread was cut and dry -- someone was outed in a mean way meant to get mob mentality to report another user to medical authorities. That's bad behavior but also puts all legal and medical questions and answers at risk.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:30 PM on December 7, 2005


What jessamyn said, and also fishfucker:

i really hope ikkuyu2 doesn't stop posting on ask.me because of people jumping on him for an offhand comment. I value and respect his contributions, and he seems to have a wide range of useful knowledge

People sure are quick to bring out the pitchforks around here. For one thing, we all have bad days; for another, as has been said, doctors tend to be arrogant—it's what the French call a professional deformation. (Well, they say it in French, but you know what I mean.) I'd a hell of a lot rather have an arrogant doctor fix what's wrong with me than an empathic, not-so-knowledgeable nurse hold my hand while I slip away. And this is by no means a knock against nurses, who tend to be wonderful people and know a lot themselves—but they're not doctors, and doctors have every right to insist on the primacy of their own knowledge and expertise.
posted by languagehat at 3:38 PM on December 7, 2005


Oh, and this:

ikkyu is a foot-wide, shit-smeared asshole.

is far worse than anything ikkyu2 has ever said. Shame on you, bardic.
posted by languagehat at 3:39 PM on December 7, 2005


Yet the comment today, oh boy. Then, here in his journal is a story which I take to show respect for a sharp nurse who diagnosed one of his patients. I find the dichotomy odd.

I think you might be using the word dichotomy incorrectly, although the dictionary definition isn't all that spesific.
posted by delmoi at 3:40 PM on December 7, 2005


Ikkyu2 is an extraordinarily helpful and useful AskMe poster and alongside drpynchon has a real rarity value in this community. He helped me with a problem once with quick, cogent advice and I am grateful he is here.

Consider what cortex said so simply and well: People are complex and self-contradicting. As much as I'd like to be a constant, unfailing rock of virtue and earnestness 24/7, I can't pull it off. I don't see a few badly expressed comments as worthy of this level of derision when his aggregate posting history on AskMe is so excellent overall. And posting any members' personal information, even if publically available elsewhere, is awful. Why would anyone risk offering free advice in such a punitive climate?
posted by melissa may at 3:40 PM on December 7, 2005


Can we close this meTa, now? It's obviously entering negative returns territory.
posted by lodurr at 3:44 PM on December 7, 2005


By the way, any enmity the guy's earned he easily made up for with this post, and then some.
posted by delmoi at 3:44 PM on December 7, 2005


I'd like to second, or third, the guess that ikkyu2 was just having a bad day at work, probably tangentally related. Previous posts have been paragons of thoughtfulness. We are all human, and we all have our moments of poor form.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:45 PM on December 7, 2005


mathowie writes "That's bad behavior but also puts all legal and medical questions and answers at risk."

In other words, Matt, your (main?) concern is to keep having lawyers and doctors comment on your site, not the ethics of outing commenters. An outed doctor or lawyer means, omigod!, Matt's profitable site may not be as useful a resource, and that might cost Matt.

Some poor shlub who is not a doctor or a lawyer means, tough shit, as it's no skin off Matt's ass. In my emails to you -- which you didn't even have the decency to reply to -- I repeatedly mentioned that we'd recently seen a number of stories -- some linked to from MetaFilter -- about people losing jobs over blog comments. And I told you that was a large part of the reason for my desire for anonymity.

But I had been willing to risk that anonymity in order to offer to MetaFilter users a utility that makes using your site easier. I did that because MetaFilter is, in some way, a community, and I wanted to give back to the community.

But since my outing doesn't scare off potential good answers on AskMetaFilter, you couldn't be bothered to remove the outing comments or even reply to my emails.

That's some community spirit you show, Matt.
posted by orthogonality at 3:46 PM on December 7, 2005


ortho, sometimes things happen arbitrarily. Matt's just a normal guy and makes ad hoc decisions with inconsistency. You were expecting an administrative law judge?
posted by Saucy Intruder at 3:55 PM on December 7, 2005


I'd a hell of a lot rather have an arrogant doctor fix what's wrong with me than an empathic, not-so-knowledgeable nurse hold my hand while I slip away.

Arrogant, with legible handwriting in an alive language: good. But whats the use of an arrogant medic who kills you in the the pursuit of a sick game?
posted by dash_slot- at 3:59 PM on December 7, 2005


Wow, color me amazed that you aren't getting people falling all over themselves to get you what you want, ortho.
posted by phearlez at 4:03 PM on December 7, 2005


Arrogant, with legible handwriting in an alive language: good. But whats the use of an arrogant medic who kills you in the the pursuit of a sick game?

The notion occurred to me that, were a doctor to choose to write an intentionally obfuscated note, he would not do so in a way that would knowingly threaten the life of a patient. Eh?
posted by cortex at 4:22 PM on December 7, 2005


I'd a hell of a lot rather have an arrogant doctor fix what's wrong with me than an empathic, not-so-knowledgeable nurse hold my hand while I slip away. And this is by no means a knock against nurses, who tend to be wonderful people and know a lot themselves—but they're not doctors, and doctors have every right to insist on the primacy of their own knowledge and expertise.

No, they're not doctors. They're completely different professions with different courses of study and responsibility. This notion that nurses are simply doctor-wanna-bes who weren't intelligent enough to become one is simply false (in general).

I've worked with a ton of nurses, and doctors, and I've met career nurses that I would trust my life with, and doctors I would not allow to walk my dog. There are good nurses and bad ones, great doctors and awful ones.

And let's hope you get a good nurse, as her knowledge level could have great impact on your treatment. It's a profession which, considering the state of medical care today (in the US) is becoming more vital by the day. The attitude that they're people who "are wonderful and know a lot" is condescending and misguided, no matter the intent.
posted by justgary at 4:46 PM on December 7, 2005


doctors tend to be arrogant—it's what the French call a professional deformation.

He wasn't just arrogant. He displayed a pathological disgust towards fellow health professionals, whom he considered himself above, and whom he considered a fair target for bullying games intended to prop up his own feeling of self-worth. Whether or not he may have endangered patients through unintelligible notes is irrelevant; he endangers patients simply by carrying that sort of attitude to the workplace. People get fired from jobs for clicking on goatse, but this arsehole is allowed to practice medicine? Fuck me.
posted by Jimbob at 4:52 PM on December 7, 2005


ikkyu2 has gone way beyond the call of duty in the past in AskMe. He has one bad day, and gets a revenge outing. I hope he's not put off posting in AxeMe too; he must be one of the most consistently helpful respondents there.

CMC, you could have expressed your concerns civilly without trying vigilante punishment.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:57 PM on December 7, 2005


There's so much projection going on in this thread that it's like a Cinema 12.
posted by smackfu at 4:57 PM on December 7, 2005


Another web site I used to go to has the rule that real names will NEVER be used-and that people will NOT be outed, period. I don't see why that isn't a sensible rule to follow. Matt, you know I love you, but could you and Jessamyn take an hour or so to decide on some simple guidelines for consistency? Just cause someone isn't a doc doesn't mean their life cant't get screwed up. I myself have found out I am about as anonymous as George W Bush online if someone really wants to find me-an old boyfriend who hasn't seen me in 23 years AND who did not know my married name did it easily. He isn't the only one, to my chagrin.
posted by konolia at 5:03 PM on December 7, 2005


konolia: With all due respect, even I remember your real name because you kept telling us all repeatedly that you shared the same surname and were related to a certain famous figure...
posted by vacapinta at 5:09 PM on December 7, 2005


Kinda what Jimbob said. But I'd like to specifically respond to phearlez -- I think ortho has a pretty solid argument going for him, and frankly if I were him I'd be pretty fucking pissed off too.

Why the hell should one group of people (doctors, lawyers) get preferential "privacy laws" to protect their jobs, when the exact same consequence could happen to Joe IT guy? Explain that to me, if you could, cos that would be great.
Doctors and lawyers aren't special little flowers, to be placed upon some pedestal. Whilst you're at it, could you explain why I don't deserve the same level of privacy? If I claim to be a lawyer, would my chances of being granted anonymity increase? And what sort of effect is a policy (official or not) of "Doctors/lawyers get their privacy defended, the rest of you're on yer own!"going to have on the community as a whole?

Surely having 10,000 normal schlobs cease commenting because they won't be afforded the same courtesies as 10 doctors and lawyers might have a tiny effect on the usefulness of (ask)Mefi.

Rothko is correct in saying double-standards abound in this world. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to eliminate that in at least one place we all care about, does it?
posted by coriolisdave at 5:11 PM on December 7, 2005


In other words, Matt, your (main?) concern is to keep having lawyers and doctors comment on your site, not the ethics of outing commenters. An outed doctor or lawyer means, omigod!, Matt's profitable site may not be as useful a resource, and that might cost Matt.

Yeah, that's definitely putting it "in other words." Like, completely other words. Words so other that they say something completely different.

Some poor shlub who is not a doctor or a lawyer means, tough shit, as it's no skin off Matt's ass.

If you're going to pretend that doctors and lawyers and their medical and legal advice don't have additional wrinkles to consider, then you're not doing the question justice. Damn. Your whole comment just seems singlemindedly aimed to make Matt sound like a money-grubbing shitstain who's got dollar values assigned to us all.

Lighten up, Francis.
posted by scarabic at 5:15 PM on December 7, 2005


Just got here from there... And all I can say is I'm really disappointed in you guys.

they pointed to an approach to medicine that puts ego and arrogance above patient treatment and safety, and that chills me to the bone.

As I suggested in thread, this opinion is incredibly presumptuous. First of all, just for context, part of hospital culture virtually everywhere involves these petty games between pretty much everyone. Doctors torment nurses, and any doctor who's gotten a 3:45am page with a normal set of vital signs will attest to the fact that nurses torment doctors (probably moreso). It's inappropriate and I don't condone it, but this doesn't necessarily endanger patients. Not all orders are life-and-death matters, and I've never met a nurse who's hesitated about paging for clarification on an unclear order. Furthermore, while it's true that doctors tend to have big egos, pulling rank and reinforcing hospital chain-of-command is often done to ensure patient care, not pad egos.

And regardless of whether you found ikkyu2's off-the-cuff comment arrogant or offensive, it didn't justify posting his medical license with the clear intent to smear him and hurt his career to whatever degree. You know doctors are people too. As others have noted, they do have bad days, and they do sometimes misspeak. Attaching that record to a searchable page on an extremely popular site with such a comment was a new low. Way ban-worthy, if you ask me.

As cortex notes: The notion occurred to me that, were a doctor to choose to write an intentionally obfuscated note, he would not do so in a way that would knowingly threaten the life of a patient. Eh? The fact that this isn't obvious to everyone amazes me.

I wouldn't blame him for disappearing, which would be sad since the guy has contributed more valuable insights than virtually any other user here, especially users who make comments like this: "ikkyu is a foot-wide, shit-smeared asshole" or "urine in the mint bowl at the hostess station" about people who they've never met. Really disgraceful.

And konolia, I've never agreed with you more.
posted by drpynchon at 5:16 PM on December 7, 2005


I agree with orthogonality, and I've said so before. In that conversation, jessamyn essentially said, "We sometimes choose not to delete comments that include personal information because we don't want to disturb threads." I think that's fucked up.

This thread included two people posting each other's home addresses. One of them was banned for self-linking; the other remains an active member today. So MetaFilter considers self-links to be an unforgiveable crime worthy of zero tolerance -- but posting other people's personal information merits a light slap on the wrist?

If that's the case, orthogonality is perfectly reasonable to suggest that, at least in appearance, Matt prioritizes the tranquility of his website over the privacy of its members.
posted by cribcage at 5:26 PM on December 7, 2005


justgary writes "let's hope you get a good nurse, as her knowledge level could have great impact on your treatment"
I'm just going to assume you meant to write 'their' and otherwise agree with what you said.
posted by peacay at 5:35 PM on December 7, 2005


Very late to the party, but, first of all, has anyone emailed ikkyu2 to inform that he's being tarred and feathered on the gray?

Ikkyu2 was very kind to me recently when I was in a bad state, and I will never forget it. I have seen him be kind to many other people here. I'm kind of shocked and definitely made unhappy by how quick people are to bring out the pitchforks and torches against a long time, valued member of the community. I love a good castle storming myself, but I'd really rather see it directed against real trolls.
posted by mygothlaundry at 5:40 PM on December 7, 2005


Okay, well, I said I was late to the party.
posted by mygothlaundry at 5:42 PM on December 7, 2005


(I knew this thread was going nowhere good once we got past the apology comment.)

Hey, ikkyu2 -- tough tiddy to you, too, big guy! [arm-punch /] I still think your attitude is hard-ass, but for the record I never insinuated you were out to kill patients. And the reaction is definitely pretty overblown. Things seem to be on a hyperbolous streak around here lately.

All you folks looking for standards and consistency: If you got it, it would make you unhappy. I don't expect you to admit that to yourself, but....

As for doctors and lawyers and their advice: Yes, they do have special consequences, usually. So do IT people, but they're usually savvy enough about -- well, about IT -- to take rudimentary steps to protect themselves from harm. Or at least to know when they're in its way.

And anyway, if I give advice on what enterprise database server to use, I'm not in any conceivable way liable for hte results. When doctors give something that can be construed as professional medical advice, they often can be held liable. Ditto for attorneys. So a lot of them are pretty skittish about it. It's got nothing to do with them being "special flowers" or being treated as better human beings than the rest of us.

And if Matt's aims are commercial -- so effing what? I'm among the first to get snarky about it, but you know what? It really actually is his site, after all.

That said, from what I can see about Mister H, commercial concerns are a means to an end, rather than the site beign a means to a commercial end. He wants to make money so the work can be done. Though I'm sure he could be convinced to reverse those priorities, if enough people kept bitching about it...
posted by lodurr at 5:43 PM on December 7, 2005


I'm just going to assume you meant to write 'their' and otherwise agree with what you said.

Because justgary has always seemed the sensible sort, I'm going to assume he takes the reasonable view on pronoun agreement and meant to write 'his or her,' or perhaps 'its.'
posted by IshmaelGraves at 5:43 PM on December 7, 2005


A few more things occur to me which might be of interest to folks reading this thread:
posted by ikkyu2 at 5:46 PM on December 7, 2005


"I'm just going to assume you meant to write 'their' and otherwise agree with what you said"

In that sentence, "their" would actually be piss-poor grammar. Perhaps the writer could have used the somewhat awkward "his or her", or "zir" or whatever gender-neutral term you prefer, but "their" is right out.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:46 PM on December 7, 2005


konolia: With all due respect, even I remember your real name because you kept telling us all repeatedly that you shared the same surname and were related to a certain famous figure...

"konolia" didn't tell you that. "bunnyfire" did. Which is why posting while bipolar is a very very bad idea. ;-)

But my main point stands; outing real names is a bad
thing. We shouldn't do it, and I would hope Matt would enforce that across the board.
posted by konolia at 5:48 PM on December 7, 2005


... the attitude "I am entitled to dictate my boss' behavior to whatever extent I see fit."

No. You're not. Get over it.

Well, technically, we kind of are. Because we can always just, you know -- refuse to do it their way. It's not medicine.

But aside from that, in practice, outside of medicine or law, it's quite often the case that underlings know more about how things ought to be done than the bosses do. That's actually really really common in engineering and software development, for example.

That said, there is definitely a tendency amongst geeks to conceptualize everything in terms of "fighting the man". I'd say it's basically adolescent, but that usually pisses people off.
posted by lodurr at 5:52 PM on December 7, 2005


Because justgary has always seemed the sensible sort, I'm going to assume he takes the reasonable view on pronoun agreement and meant to write 'his or her,' or perhaps 'its.'

In that sentence, "their" would actually be piss-poor grammar. Perhaps the writer could have used the somewhat awkward "his or her", or "zir" or whatever gender-neutral term you prefer, but "their" is right out.

You're both wrong, wrong, wrong. See here and here, and for conclusive proof that they is incorrect as a plural pronoun, here. Now go and sin no more.

And ikkyu2, I'm glad you've got a thick hide. Ignore the haters. You're a stand-up guy.
posted by languagehat at 5:53 PM on December 7, 2005


In that sentence, "their" would actually be piss-poor grammar.

Die, prescriptivist, die! "Their" is utterly, obviously reasonable as a gender-neutral singular possesive pronoun; it answers an important need in English better than any of the other popular suggestions (zir indeed!) at the (very minor, almost enjoyable) expense of those who cannot stand to see a humble pronoun stake out an extra profession in its semantic life.
posted by cortex at 5:54 PM on December 7, 2005 [2 favorites]


mr crash, au contraire: according to several current stylebooks, "their" is now acceptable as a neuter singular pronoun. Not that I'd do it myself, but...
posted by lodurr at 5:54 PM on December 7, 2005


Fine, fine. You all go ahead and do it thataway, I'm sticking with what I was learnt.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:56 PM on December 7, 2005


Oh, and if anyone cares, I'm not a Republican any more. I'm registered Democrat, and despite what I told Ken Mehlman in that email, I'm voting Democrat in the next election, because these Republicans that we've got here appear to have gone completely ruddy bonkers.

I was a little late to catch on to that, sure. Blame it on me having my nose in 19th century neurology textbooks instead of current affairs.

Also, if anyone bothers to read that whole journal entry, you'll see at the end a list of conditions under which I could conceivably support the Republicans in 2008. If anyone believes that even one of those things could possibly come true, call me - I've got a 1965 Stratocaster to sell you.

It actually doesn't matter much what I vote, I think; for the last few years I've lived in districts that have put in pretty solid 80+% Democratic votes in the elections.
posted by ikkyu2 at 5:56 PM on December 7, 2005


Blame it on me having my nose in 19th century neurology textbooks

My god, the man is 200 years behind modern medicine! Did anybody catch his license?!
posted by cortex at 6:03 PM on December 7, 2005


I've got a 1965 Stratocaster to sell you.

[snort /] Yeah, right, I'll believe that when....wait, how much?
posted by lodurr at 6:04 PM on December 7, 2005


You're both wrong, wrong, wrong. See here and here, and for conclusive proof that they is incorrect as a plural pronoun, here. Now go and sin no more.

Your first link consists of a list of uses which is almost wholly composed of cases in which the third-person-plural pronoun's antecedent is some variation on 'everyone,' 'anyone,' 'everybody,' etc. Sometimes it's spelled as two words — 'every one' — but these antecedents clearly differ semantically from a true singular noun, such as 'nurse.'

Your second link goes to an article which is no longer there. Too bad, it sounded interesting.

Your third link is very clever. As cool as it would have been, however, I don't believe justgary was writing in Anglo-Saxon.

More broadly, your critique reveals a fundamental misconception in what is called 'descriptivism,' which is that it neglects to consider prescriptivism as a valid engine of linguistic change and common prescriptivist beliefs as valid grammatical constructs. This omission, of course, is quite as naïve and artificial as the prescriptivist fallacy itself which discounts common usage.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 6:15 PM on December 7, 2005


[they] think they're smarter than they actually are

They also probably think you're a paternalistic asshole. Intelligence has nothing to do with how long you've been in school.

I know how to translate "lex loci" and "res ipsa loquitor" into English; that doesn't mean I'm Louis Brandeis.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 6:21 PM on December 7, 2005


Here's something that happened to me recently enough that it still stings: it was on my mind when I was writing the earlier comments this morning, and I didn't write about it because I'm still so ashamed, angry and upset about it.

A patient, X, left the hospital after an elective neurosurgical operation to cure epilepsy. I had eyeballed the discharge orders even though X was not on my team, to ensure they were right; X had been under my care for many months, as well as directly under my care during parts of the current hospital stay.

They looked right to me.

Then, the neurosurgical pharmacist-student rotator came by, tore up the handwritten discharge orders the neurosurgical resident had written, and substituted a standard form. The form was good, and it was the right form for the patient - included laxatives and so on that the neurosurg resident hadn't included - but it said, "Steroid taper as directed."

"As directed" had been a 4 week taper. However, pharmacy student did not know this, and had already torn up the prior orders. Based on insufficient expertise, the pharmacy student GUESSED that the correct steroid taper would be a 3-day taper. The mistake was unrecognized by the pharmacist instructor who signed the orders, and the patient went home.

I got a call - a 2 AM call - from an E/R 350 miles away (in the town where the patient lived) 6 days later, informing me that my patient had been admitted in coma with signs of impending cerebral herniation. That means "about to die." The E/R doc was like "What in THE hell, doctor ikkyu2? It looks like that thurr BRAIN thingy got op'rated on."

I sorted it out - thank God the guy's wife was there and we figured out that the steroid doses had been wrong - and helped the guy stabilize my patient over the phone; that took an hour. Then I hung up, went to the bathroom, and puked.

Y'all folks think you guys get traumatized by the experience of the one or two people you've ever known to die in a hospital. Perhaps you should bear in mind that us docs can have raw edges, too.
posted by ikkyu2 at 6:21 PM on December 7, 2005 [5 favorites]


And on top of all that, I didn't say 'his or her' was correct, I said it was reasonable. We reactionaries need our hobbyhorses, too.

Me, I'm gunning for 'its' as a personal pronoun. So far it's a losing battle.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 6:23 PM on December 7, 2005


I'm constantly baffled, here on MeFi and elsewhere, at the attitude "I am entitled to dictate my boss' behavior to whatever extent I see fit."

No. You're not. Get over it.

Going by the rest of your reply, maybe we all overreacted. Maybe you do actually care about your co-workers, and you just adopted a shitty, arsehole attitude when explaining your relationship to them in ask.mefi. I'm willing to call it either way - either you're back-peddling in describing how much you care about the nurses, or you do actually like the nurses and were just being hyperbolic in your post. If you've been having a bad day, and you seem to have been, then I can accept the later.

However. I am entitled to "dictate" my bosses behaviour as much as I see fit, in as much as we are both human beings, equal under the law, both squeezed out of our mothers' nether regions, both breathe the same air and drink the same water. My boss isn't a god. And you aren't a god to the people who you feel are subordinate to you - believe me. A professional relationship may be dictated by the nature of the organisation, but the associated personal relationship should always be on equal terms, because bullying is unacceptable, and your ask.mefi post seemed to indicate you revel in it. The way medicine as a whole has been going in the last few years, doctors are the last people who should feel justified in taking this attitude.
posted by Jimbob at 6:28 PM on December 7, 2005


ikkyu2 writes "Here's something that happened to me recently enough that it still stings..."

Jesus, I'm glad it got sorted.
posted by OmieWise at 6:31 PM on December 7, 2005


Medical orders are always written in Latin

So that's how the fuck that works!! :)

Thanks.

I hope that anyone who's about to form an opinion about MetaFilter will read over this entire thread twice and take note of how many measured, understanding responses there are to ikkyu2's "offending" comment. And how much of the "persecution" has been a select few one-line zingers of scatalogical bent.

MetaFilter wins not because everybody here gets it right every time, but because no bullshit goes unchallenged, and something reasonable usually comes out in the wash.
posted by scarabic at 6:33 PM on December 7, 2005


I would offer that I sometimes roll my eyes at people in AskMefi who seem to be doing nothing more than venting their pent-up frustration over a boss whom they perceive to be less intelligent than them. I think our demographic is a little heavy on smart, skilled people who have no management skills and will probably be working under someone's close supervision their whole lives. Some of those people aren't happy about it, and like to lord little crap over their boss in one way or another. Whatever they can find, really. This is lame and a weak use of AskMe. And if you have to manage or lead people professionally it comes across as extremely petty. The whole reason, in fact, that some people will always be leaves on the org chart.

But it's certainly nothing to get huffed up about. I think the whole Latin thing does not compare easily with writing memos in 133t but it is kinda funny on second glance. Of course he's doing it on purpose to fuck with your head, dingus!
posted by scarabic at 6:41 PM on December 7, 2005


i actually had a 1965 stratocaster. it wasn't really a big deal when i bought it in 1972. now who'll be first to translate "foot wide shit smeared asshole" into latin?
posted by quonsar at 6:47 PM on December 7, 2005


ortho, as I already stated, I don't like it when anyone gets outed and it's bad behavior all around, deleted every time I catch it early enough. I'm not singling you out because you're not a doctor, in your specific case, a huge long thread went on for a good long while before I was ever aware of it. And if I remember correctly, you were coy and refuting statements you said earlier on the site, acting like you never wrote a plugin. People trying to make sense of it pulled up your name and by the time I saw it, removing any and all references meant removing many, many posts.

I delete one comment these days and it often shows up in metatalk. Deleting a huge swath of metatalk for one user's benefit was certain to rile a much larger group of users and make me out to be trying to rewrite history and hide the truth. It's always a touchy situation to remove stuff. The thread you are talking about was a big deal at the time, removing it would have spawned more threads, copies of the original on quonsar's archive, and cries for me not to play favorites and such.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 6:48 PM on December 7, 2005


life's a bitch, then you jrun! :-)
posted by quonsar at 6:53 PM on December 7, 2005


And ikkyu2, I'm glad you've got a thick hide. Ignore the haters. You're a stand-up guy.

Aye.

I'm always amused when people get so wild when they get a glimpse of the fact that doctors are just folks , folks with different educational histories. We want our physicians to be godlike, to surrender our lives to them. Sometimes we have to.

But they're like any other group of people: some good, many bad, most just plain average.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:57 PM on December 7, 2005


You know, I've heard lots of stories of hospital incompetence, and the incompetent party is usually either a phlebotomist or an MD.
posted by kenko at 7:03 PM on December 7, 2005


actually, ortho, I went back and reread the whole thread you wanted deleted, and in it people are concerned that your server is hosting data about their activity on the site and people that met you in real life mention being lied to their faces.

I've never had a problem with you on the site and am thankful you wrote helpful software for the site, but at the time I didn't delete the post because you seemed to be deceiving a bunch of people that met you in real life and they had concerns about you hosting user data. Your outing in the thread wasn't a malicious swipe, it was concerned members trying to get to the bottom of things and end some deception that may have been part of larger problems.

I wouldn't compare this doctor ID in an ask mefi comment to that thread. I would compare the ebay scammer guy ask mefi thread to the ortho outing thread. It appeared that there was a lot more to the story than simply identifying some user.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:10 PM on December 7, 2005


So can we remember this thread as worst of MetaFilter and never do it again?

Please.
posted by Chuckles at 7:11 PM on December 7, 2005


Yes, we're all human, but some of us more than others:

precisely to remind nurses and pharmacists who think to upbraid me exactly who has the M.D. degree and who is paid to take orders from the person with the M.D. degree

I know doctors as friends and I was just completely shocked to read this. Chalk it up to my ignorance, but when my friends were going through med school, you only heard about these types of creeps as the worst-of-the-worst sorts of stereotypes. Color me enlightened--these guys exist and are doing just fine.

I guess it's a two-way street. We expect a lot from doctors, and since they're so damn special they get to do away with what us plebes have to work with--decency, mutual respect, a sense of self-worth that doesn't come from our income-bracket, etc.

The outing thing was stupid, BTW, and I should have made that clear. And the asshole line was stolen from Dan Savage. And I'm glad my health is fine and dandy, thanks for asking.
posted by bardic at 7:25 PM on December 7, 2005


chickenofwidereknown reminds me of a joke well-received amongst final-year med students of my acquaintance: There's a special name people have for the person who graduates last from medical school...



Doctor.
posted by coriolisdave at 7:27 PM on December 7, 2005


this is a pretty remarkable thread.

that is all.
posted by shmegegge at 8:13 PM on December 7, 2005


Thanks, folks. Food for thought - I wasn't even aware there were that many kinds of assholes out there.

The next time I am tempted to write an order in medical Latin, I will recall what a L4M3R that makes me.

Instead, I'll just call the person who upset me an "asshole." In public, and in front of all his friends and colleagues.

That'll be appropriate behavior, right?

Right?

Because, I mean, you guys are the experts here. I only know a lot about neurology - you guys are the experts on human relations.

Seriously, though, I'm surprised at the response my comment got. I knew folks weren't going to like it, but I'm surprised at how many folks really disliked it, and dislike me, so vehemently. It's making me question what I've been trying to do here.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:14 PM on December 7, 2005 [1 favorite]


"What have you done for me lately?"
posted by Rothko at 8:25 PM on December 7, 2005


I don't think people here have a personal dislike or deep personal grudges... they're just quick with the pitchforks and consider themselves experts in every conceivable field because they are on the Internet.
posted by Krrrlson at 8:27 PM on December 7, 2005


It's making me question what I've been trying to do here.

You have a mission?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:31 PM on December 7, 2005


Never mind the peanut gallery. There are intelligent people here who reserve judgement, give the benefit of the doubt, and are slow to anger. We also like to read (yes, I'm including myself in that group) comments from other people with those same qualities. You can't please everyone, and you should never try to change yourself to please a (mostly) anonymous audience.
posted by Roger Dodger at 8:32 PM on December 7, 2005


*hands ikkyu2 an asbestos suit*

Hey, you aren't anybody on metafilter till you go through this. Rite of passage. Now you are one of us.

Yeah, scary thought, I know.
posted by konolia at 8:36 PM on December 7, 2005


Going by the rest of your reply, maybe we all overreacted. Maybe you do actually care about your co-workers, and you just adopted a shitty, arsehole attitude when explaining your relationship to them in ask.mefi. I'm willing to call it either way - either you're back-peddling in describing how much you care about the nurses, or you do actually like the nurses and were just being hyperbolic in your post. If you've been having a bad day, and you seem to have been, then I can accept the later.

However. I am entitled to "dictate" my bosses behaviour as much as I see fit, in as much as we are both human beings, equal under the law, both squeezed out of our mothers' nether regions, both breathe the same air and drink the same water. My boss isn't a god. And you aren't a god to the people who you feel are subordinate to you - believe me. A professional relationship may be dictated by the nature of the organisation, but the associated personal relationship should always be on equal terms, because bullying is unacceptable, and your ask.mefi post seemed to indicate you revel in it. The way medicine as a whole has been going in the last few years, doctors are the last people who should feel justified in taking this attitude.
posted by Jimbob at 6:28 PM PST on December 7

Just a note here: whenever this guy Jimbob posts in this thread just go ahead and pretend that I posted "I agree" after it, because this is how I feel as well. I believe that ikkyu2 is a fine doctor, perhaps even a great one, and that he cares about the health of his patients. I also believe that he is an ace AskMe poster who has contributed a whole lot. But that doesn't mean that his arrogance and condescension will go uncommented upon (gee, medical orders are often written in heavily Latin doctors' cant? no fucking shit) or that it will prevent us from calling him out on petty passive-aggressive bullshit when it appears. If you honestly think that embarrassing your team members is good management, ikkyu, well, I guess you'll have to depend on awe and fear rather than admiration and loyalty. Good luck with that.

I don't care if you're King Shit of Mount Olympus or a homeless guy logging in from the public library; here, I can only judge you by your words, and I'll be damned if I'm going to give someone a free pass on assholedom merely because he worked hard in school. You know as well as I do, ikkyu, that if what you really meant was that 'oh ho ho orders are always in Latin they know what's going on no harm done' you wouldn't have posted it as an example. You deliberately made orders or instructions abstruse or unreadable so as to force your co-workers to come sniveling back to you like the pissant peasants that they are, and be reminded that they are in the presence of a Great and Powerful Oz.

I'm sorry you had a rough couple of days and I wish you and your patients good health and sunshine. But your "fuck it" solution engenders nothing but ill will and resentment. I think that in the long run you may regret it. Take it from one of the little guys.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:37 PM on December 7, 2005 [2 favorites]


Optimus, heal thyself.

Heh.
posted by konolia at 8:38 PM on December 7, 2005


"I'm constantly baffled, here on MeFi and elsewhere, at the attitude "I am entitled to dictate my boss' behavior to whatever extent I see fit.""

I'm constantly baffled when a position of professional superiority is taken to be one of moral superiority.
I like the things that you've posted, Ikkyu2, and you've helped me with my problems. But I've also had more than a few bosses who knew fuck-all about the jobs that their subordinates did, and would lecture at great length despite being completely in the wrong. I'm sure that you have bosses, and I'm sure that you feel no shame about upbraiding them when, say, financial considerations would impact patient care.
Perhaps my experience is different, but I watched an MD ignore my grandmother's protests of a bad reaction to medicine and prescribe her something she was allergic to because he couldn't be bothered to listen to her when she was trying to articulate what had happened the last time she took a penicillin-derived antibiotic. It took a nurse, possibly not even an RN, to remind him that she'd be allergic to the one he prescribed too. And I know that my mother's severe migranes went undiagnosed for years, since GP after GP thought the problem was that she was a vegetarian and light on animal protien instead of putting the symptoms together.
I'm sure you're not Alec Baldwin in Malice, but some of us have experiences that tend to discount the idea that just because someone is a boss or has an advanced degree that they're entitled to belittle someone else.

Again, I've liked what you contribute, I just disagree with your tone, and I hope you can understand the reasons why.

(And Ishmael: Thanks for fighting the prescriptivist fight! All I know is that it's "his or hers" in the AP style, in the MLA style and in the APA style. I'd wager that it's that was for Dow and Trib styles too... Doesn't make it right, just that the places that I write will get pissed if they have to "correct" it.)
posted by klangklangston at 8:48 PM on December 7, 2005


I'll just pipe in and say I thought ikkyu2's answer was understandable. All the charges of assholery and outrage etc. are childish. ikkyu2 doesn't do what he does to massage his own ego, he does it to keep the team functioning at its best. In most any situation where you have a team and a certain member of the team is an "expert" it's somtimes necessary to politely remind the other members that yes, indeed, not all members of the team are equally experienced, educated, or even necessary. This is especially true if you're in a leadership position; it's up to you to make it clear what each person's place is or Bad Things Happen.

Anyways, ikkyu2, I hope you don't let this ugly experience deter you from popping up in the green. CMichaelCook's response was completely over the top but at least he seems to have apologized.
posted by nixerman at 8:51 PM on December 7, 2005


Wow, ikkyu, no wonder you reacted the way you did. It's not like you really ever get used to patients dying, so I just wanted to pipe up and offer my condolences.
And perhaps you should make a list of all the kind things people have said to balance out the list you made......I'll get you started.....

  • I generally find ikkyu2's comments helpful and pleasant
  • ikkyu2 has always impressed me with good answers and comments.
  • I value and respect his contributions

    I think you can take it from here

    • posted by Iamtherealme at 9:03 PM on December 7, 2005


    I know fuckall about ikkyu2 or what he does, but I thought his comments rather appropriate in that thread.
    posted by Captaintripps at 9:06 PM on December 7, 2005


    Seriously, though, I'm surprised at the response my comment got. I knew folks weren't going to like it, but I'm surprised at how many folks really disliked it, and dislike me, so vehemently. It's making me question what I've been trying to do here.

    Ouch. Ouch-ouch!

    This is exactly the kind of reaction I was hoping you would not have. Oh well. I guess we've done it. Damn. Damn you, Optimus Chyme. It looks like there's a huge outcry against you for the first half of this thread, but if you look closely you realize that it's mainly Optimus Chyme busting your nuts continuously, like he's getting paid to do it. Lame.

    So I compiled a list of all the nice things people said about you or in your defense in this thread. They're all taken out of context of course and some people are represented more than once. But that's also true of your little list of evilnesses. You even went outside this thread. So mine wins.

  • we're benefiting from the few that are willing to talk
  • I generally find ikkyu2's comments helpful and pleasant
  • ikkyu2 has always impressed me with good answers and comments.
  • It's clear from many of his posts (even this one) that he genuinely values life
  • I generally found him helpful and pleasant, not arrogant
  • i really hope ikkuyu2 doesn't stop posting on ask.me
  • I value and respect his contributions
  • I think ikkyu2 is one of our more reasonable frequent commenters
  • I'm sticking to my opinion of him as a sane, reasoned poster here on MetaFilter
  • he has always struck me as pleasant
  • Agree that ikkyu2 has made great contributions to AskMe in the past.
  • Ikkyu2 is a remarkably nice guy
  • I don't think this is qualification for the asshole stamp.
  • People sure are quick to bring out the pitchforks around here.
  • Ikkyu2 is an extraordinarily helpful and useful AskMe poster
  • I am grateful he is here
  • Previous posts have been paragons of thoughtfulness.
  • ikkyu2 has gone way beyond the call of duty in the past in AskMe
  • the guy has contributed more valuable insights than virtually any other user here
  • Ikkyu2 was very kind to me recently when I was in a bad state, and I will never forget it.

    Cheer up, pal. And don't leave because some nitwit can't handle you.

    • posted by scarabic at 9:22 PM on December 7, 2005


    Take it from one of the little guys.

    Will you fucking shut up, already?
    posted by scarabic at 9:25 PM on December 7, 2005


    IshmaelGraves writes "Me, I'm gunning for 'its' as a personal pronoun. So far it's a losing battle."

    Yeah, it is, but I'm with you!

    Personally, I avoid the whole "he or she" problem and pluralize everything. Thus: "Let's hope you get good nurses, and that their ..." I wish more people would do this. It solves a lot of problems. Seriously.
    posted by librarina at 9:26 PM on December 7, 2005


    Optimus Chyme - It is so painfully clear that you have an inferiority complex toward ikkyu2 because of his profession. You have seized upon your once chance to presume to be his peer and take him down a notch, and it's making you feel big. Bravo. I've met the dude and you are making a monster out of a totally unassuming, non-imposing, un-arrogant sweet guy.

    May you always receive the same level of ruthless scrutiny over every ounce of attitude you ever betray.

    /curse
    posted by scarabic at 9:37 PM on December 7, 2005


    Will you fucking shut up, already?
    posted by scarabic at 9:25 PM PST on December 7

    That's pretty non-substantive. I didn't say he was a shit-smeared asshole, nor did I say he was a bad physician, and I agreed that the personal outing was a bad call. I think his management style is disrespectful and ultimately unhelpful, from the point of view of a subordinate, in contrast to his as a team leader or what-have-you. I posted my opinion because while CMC was in the wrong for part of his initial comment, the substance of his critique was solid.

    If you'd like to point out the error in my reasoning, or articulate a different point of view, I'd be happy to hear it. But "fucking shit up, already" is disappointing for a lot of reasons. Ikkyu doesn't have to defend or explain himself, but as long as he continues to do the latter, I'll engage him.
    posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:45 PM on December 7, 2005


    And may I add
  • ikkyu taught me how to do bullets in html

    • posted by Iamtherealme at 9:46 PM on December 7, 2005


    My mom's an RN and the nurse manager in a pediatric office of, I think, six pediatricians. All women. I forwarded ikkyu2's comments to her, I'm curious at her response. I have a suspicion that female doctors are not as inclined to solve such a problem the way that ikkyu2 solved it.

    Having a genetic illness, I've been around doctors and hospitals my whole life and one thing I've really noticed as I've gotten older is that most people don't have very much contact with doctors and, for them, doctors are almost mythical creatures. And not necessarily in a good way. I'm of the opinion that one of the bigger problems in health care is that patients are not very involved with nor take much responsibility for their medical treatment. I like to point out to people that while doctors know far, far more about medicine than the patient ever will, the doctor will never know the patient's own body as the patient knows it and thus being aware of it and communicating about it forms a big part of the patient's responsibiity for their health care.

    I'm more sympathetic to ikkyu2's point of view than I would expect; but I do strongly believe that in the US, especially, the highly-trained non-MDs, like the pharmacists, are being very underutilized and it's in no small part because doctors have very jealously protected their personal power in health care. From his example above, we can see what we already knew and that is that the trade-off here is that doctors have a personal responsibility for their patients in a way that no one else does. And don't think for a moment that patients and others don't hold them to that responsibility—often unrealistically. I think malpractice suits have gotten out of control.

    I have the sense that comparisons to regular workplace situations in the other thread and this one are flawed. I don't know if I totally agree with ikkyu2's attitude about his coworkers, but I do believe it's a special situation that cannot be compared to, say, a software developer and his manager.
    posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:13 PM on December 7, 2005


    OC, I just don't know where you hoped to go after starting your participation in this thread thusly:

    Wow, turns out ikkyu2 is a giant asshole.

    You've been harping on the guy for hours. Your opinion has been heard. And if he continues to "defend" himself, it might be because there is an entire conversation taking place about him. I wouldn't take this as a personal invitation for you to keep "engaging him."

    I am pissed because he has said that the shit flinging here has caused him to reconsider his participation. His would be a huge loss. I won't say that you led the charge on all this. But you did show up early and lower the bar with the above comment, opening the door for the nastiness that followed. Your persistent prosecution of this outstanding member has been tiresome and hurtful. I'm not even going to dignify your "argument" by trying to point out some error in your reasoning.

    Just call it a day.
    posted by scarabic at 10:25 PM on December 7, 2005


    Just back on the important topic - the use of 'they/their' - I can't see why people would object to the extension of roles to personal pronoun substitutes. My best test, coming from a purely lay perspective, is how it sounds/works in the context of a particular sentence.

    'They' for 'he' or 'she' or instead of 'he or she' is eminently sensible where one doesn't want to be gender-specific. A perfect example is this little website we particpate in. 'They' sounds soooo much better than 's/he' when reading.

    It's not that I don't care what the prescriptivist model might rule on the topic, it's just that practicalities and sensible form sometimes have overriding precedence in my humble opinion. The language just works better this way. And no, I don't often go around trying to arbitrarily manipulate the language to my own ends, other than when I make mistakes or display my grammatical ignorance, which I'll allow, may occur from time to time. But the whole point was: there are nurses who are boys - not 'male nurses' - just.....nurses.
    posted by peacay at 10:27 PM on December 7, 2005


    It is so painfully clear that you have an inferiority complex toward ikkyu2 because of his profession.

    If that were the case, I wouldn't have remarked on a particularly awesome comment he made a while back just yesterday in my real, non-internet life. This really happened; I even tried my best to pronounce his username.

    You have seized upon your once chance to presume to be his peer and take him down a notch, and it's making you feel big.

    Not really. It bums me out that a lot of you think it's okay to belittle a co-worker when an alternate method of correction would have sufficed. I should have laid off the expletives and personal attacks, and that's a failing of mine; I always start off more venomous than I should be. For that, I apologize. When I err or I'm an asshole, I appreciate being told so I can examine my behavior; I imagine most people are the same. Ironically, while I took offense to your "shut the fuck up," the passion you clearly had for the issue caused me to step back and examine what I'd said a little more rationally, and to come to the conclusion that my pronouncements on ikkyu's moral state were exaggerated and untrue. So: I don't think that he is a bad person. I think he acted badly.

    Bravo. I've met the dude and you are making a monster out of a totally unassuming, non-imposing, un-arrogant sweet guy.

    Like I said, that was both unfair and inaccurate. I think that most of us here are really nice people who let others merge ahead of us and call the police when someone is snooping around our neighbor's house and who tip well and say please and thank you. I also think that we all have our buttons that are so, so easily pushed. I am an egalitarian through-and-through, and I always take the side of the underdog. I'll try to be more polite about it; sorry, ikkyu.
    posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:32 PM on December 7, 2005


    "ikkyu is a foot-wide, shit-smeared asshole."

    ikkyu2, if I were you, I'd get that framed. If somebody was trying to rip me a new one, I'd simply say, "Heh, I've been called worse." Then I'd immediately whip out the framed message and hand it to them.

    I think you did a good job of responding to these bullshit attacks. 95% of the people (me included) have never worked in a medical environment, you're not exactly putting down a Wal-Mart employee in a passive-agressive way, you're doing to this to people who have high intellects and big egos too.

    One of the pitfalls of being in a profession such as doctor, lawyer, et al. is that you never stop being that. Most Mefites stop being whatever they do during the day and become more themselves away from work, but a doctor is always a doctor. No matter what you're doing, at a moments notice, you may be called on to be a doctor, something most people have no experience with.

    I have a feeling that a majority of people have done something similar to what you did, I know I have, because it's just a lot nicer to subtly let somebody know they aren't all that than make an uncomfortable work environment and directly hurt somebody's feelings. Unfortunately, you're held to a different standard than everyone else because of your profession.

    I had a highly specialized job, that a co-worker of mine who I had been very nice to said, "I can do that, your job's easy." I immediately stopped talking to him about my job in non-technical, simple terms and talked to him as if I were talking to somebody else in my position. His face went blank with confusion. I was able to prove my point without having to directly be an ass to him. He may have felt I was being an asshole, but it's nicer than saying you're too dumb to do my job.

    I wouldn't blame you if you stopped posting if this is what you get for your candor.

    I do enjoy to the grammar lesson thread going on at the same time, it adds to the hilarity of this thread.
    posted by Mijo Bijo at 10:34 PM on December 7, 2005


    One of the pitfalls of being in a profession such as doctor, lawyer, et al. is that you never stop being that.

    As a librarian (ish) that haunts Ask.Me, I have no idea what you're talking about.

    There are a couple of points that I feel compelled to make. The first is that "their" is not a singular pronoun. That's just the way it is.

    Also, ikkyu2's remark that sparked this whole she-bang was an assholish remark. The fact that we cared enough to make a thread this long about ikkyu2 being an asshole demonstrates that we collectively have warm fuzzy feelings about him and that, in this site that's largely devoted to people snarking at each other, we had this level of a shitstorm demonstrates that ikkyu2 demonstrating any assholishness at all is an anomoly along the lines of jessamyn saying, "STFU n00b, look it up your own damn self."

    Unsurprisingly, further posting revealed that ikkyu2 is not an asshole, he merely made a comment that sounded like a comment an asshole would make. I mean, really, how come y'all never care when *I'm* a dick? When I read his comment, I assumed that I was missing something. I was.

    Anecdotally, I found out that some classmates of mine are acquainted with the real life ikkyu2. My first question was, "Is he really a doctor?" I received an answer to my satisfaction that hasn't affected the way I read his posts. I still see them as informative and interesting and something that, if I'm going to rely on the information, needs to be verified by an independent source.

    Furthermore, in my dealings with ikkyu2 in my own area of expertise, I've found him to be pleasant and collegial both on and off metafilter. (Sorry dude, smart money says I'm a better steel player than you. I welcome the opportunity to be proven wrong.)

    At any rate, I don't like posting this shit, but ikkyu2 the poster is worth it. I hope he stays around. Also, I hope he gets an apartment where he can crank up a tube amp without the neighbors calling the cops--I reckon that's in the constitution somewhere...

    Off topic: mathowie: The outing of orthogonality is bullshit and we as a community don't deserve to have him posting here again. If you're so concerned about keeping the thread intact (which I can only assume is related to naxosaxur's HI-larious meltdown), why don't you fire up that adminhammer and, where personally identifiable information appears, replace it with [Personal Information Deleted By Administrator]?
    posted by stet at 11:34 PM on December 7, 2005


    If somebody was trying to rip me a new one, I'd simply say, "Heh, I've been called worse." Then I'd immediately whip out the framed message and hand it to them.

    Heh. I've been called worse than "a foot-wide shit smeared asshole," in the public part of a hospital ward, at top volume, by a physician who was supervising me. A physician I respected for his intelligence, if not his good nature, at that. In retrospect, I'm not even sure he was wrong to berate me, although I didn't much like the way he did it. I've never done anything like that to anyone.

    You people really have no idea what happens in hospitals, do you? I knew an eminent professor of neurosurgery - not a scrub; he is world famous - who stabbed a circulating nurse's hand with a scalpel when she was too slow to get him whatever it was he wanted. Nothing came of it except that we got a new circulator for that case and I bandaged up the poor traumatized girl's hand.

    There are docs out there who probably could safely be called "assholes," but I am well aware that I am not one of them. I am a chalk-dusty old neurologist, fairly benign, with a tendency to run on pedantically. If I am standing in between you and the door, your most grave danger in conversation with me would be to inquire of my opinions on Babinski's sign; I will talk your ear off until you are shifting from foot to foot trying to think of a way to escape.
    posted by ikkyu2 at 11:37 PM on December 7, 2005


    Stet: being a better musician than me on any sort of instrument wouldn't be much of a compliment. I like to tinker with guitars; I'd like playing them more if it weren't for the awful noises they made when I did that. I've only sat down at a pedal steel a couple of times, and while the noises were interesting, they must have seemed quite awful to passers-by.

    Whom do we have in common, by the way?
    posted by ikkyu2 at 11:42 PM on December 7, 2005


    ikkyu2: Your first post in this thread was an incredibly gracious rebuttal to a misguided pile-on. I applaud your restraint. And as a contributor to AskMe, I'd place you second only to Jessamyn. Please, please stick around.
    posted by zanni at 11:46 PM on December 7, 2005


    Whom do we have in common, by the way?

    Duck! The word-nerds are coming.
    posted by drpynchon at 11:50 PM on December 7, 2005


    ikkyu2: I'll email you the folks we have in common.
    posted by stet at 12:00 AM on December 8, 2005


    However. I am entitled to "dictate" my bosses behaviour as much as I see fit, in as much as we are both human beings, equal under the law, both squeezed out of our mothers' nether regions, both breathe the same air and drink the same water. My boss isn't a god.

    Nonetheless, he is your boss, and there is a point at which you will defer to him or lose your job.

    When people work together all day every day, especially in high-stress jobs like medicine, they begin to think of each other as peers, and they start to take liberties. Small ones at first, but if it goes unchecked eventually there is a real chance that they will arrogate to themselves authority that is not rightfully theirs, and argue when they should be acting. I have no doubt this can be fatal.

    To nip such potentialities in the bud, a doctor can remind his team in small ways that no matter how much they all pal around together, his practice is not a democracy. As the boss, anything that goes wrong that he could reasonably have prevented is by definition his fault. And with great responsibility comes great power; they are inseparable. ikkyu2's technique does not seem abusive to me. It comes off as a little arrogant, but as a stance for getting the job done, a touch of arrogance works, and that's why so many doctors cultivate it. Being liked is nice, but being effective is more important.
    posted by kindall at 12:14 AM on December 8, 2005


    Wow. Just wow. It's amazing how many people managed to read a whole heap more into one sentence than was ever there, and the use their own interpretation of it to be keyboard warriors of the highest order...

    All ikkyu2 said is that, on occasion, he's found a convenient way of showing a subordinate member of his staff who's boss, in a situation where being the boss ultimately means having other people's lives in your hand. He didn't say he did this as a matter of course; he didn't say he hated the people underneath him, nor that he thought they were all idiots; he didn't say he jeapordised patients' lives when doing this.

    This is truly the worst of Metafilter.
    posted by benzo8 at 12:54 AM on December 8, 2005


    Really, Seriously? What the fuck?

    Did you people with issues read the bottom line of what he wrote? Casual fuck-ups committed by these folks kill patients - my patients - and in some cases I'm even fully liable for their malfeasance.

    When you are seeing a neurosurgeon, you either have a shitty GP or a damn good reason for being there. If he determines that "showing people who is boss" is the way to make sure he is surrounded by people that GET IT, well thank god he figured out how.

    I am the owner of an unruptured cranial aneurysm, and I am lucky as hell to have had it found before it ruptured or caused other problems -- because knowing is half the battle.

    "Casual fuck-ups" are why many people with my conditon die. If I didn't know about it, and I went into the hospital with an insane headache, an underling who thought they were teh shizit could KILL me by not consulting the boss and sending me home with a "migrane."

    ikkyu, you are one of the cornerstones that make AxeMe so great. Thank you, and please don't let this thread turn you off from contributing.
    posted by SpookyFish at 12:57 AM on December 8, 2005


    I came late to the thread but I'm kind of ashamed for MeFi for all of this. Please stick around ikkyu2. But this makes me seriously wonder about many people here. I've had episodes of giving irritating remarks IRL and online but Sweet Jesus ikkyu2 has been giving great advice all the time here. My mind blows up with what I thought was a great community.
    posted by keijo at 2:22 AM on December 8, 2005


    The amount of hyperbole in this thread is really embarrassing. On both sides.

    The first is that "their" is not a singular pronoun. That's just the way it is.

    Language changes. That's just the way it is.

    [displacement] Damn you, Matt, if you'd closed the thread after CMichael's apology.... [/displacement]
    posted by lodurr at 3:09 AM on December 8, 2005


    What ikkyu2 said: "you people have no idea what goes on in hospitals, do you?", is bang - on.

    I'm a professional well-educated, experienced RN. I read Latin, so the tactic wouldn't have worked on me, but if I had forgotten myself professionally, and forced the team leader to give me a swift heads-up, I could only hope that it was a sardonic order in an obscure form, instead of public humiliation.

    The fact that the MD felt the need to take charge of the situation, and was angry and harrassed at the inconvenience, isn't surprising. Working as a team, and practicing outside your area of licensure is a damned big deal.

    We're all human. We don't always treat each other as well as we should, but for the most part, we keep it amongst ourselves, and don't let it slop over onto the patients.

    If I make an egregious error, or stupidly start throwing around opinions or interventions that I'm not educated or licensed in, I fervently hope that someone goes upside my head.

    We're not often kind when people's lives are at stake, and someone is fucking up or around.

    :D ... Not that I ever make mistakes. Ah. hell.. of course I do, and so does everyone else. We check and double-check each other all the time. The buck stops with each one of us, but it stoppeth mightily at the MD.
    posted by reflecked at 3:09 AM on December 8, 2005 [1 favorite]


    I'm surprised I haven't seen this analogy before, but consider it: A medical team is much like a military team, with a similar structure to the mission.

    It also resembles a military team in that "mission critical" means "people lose lives if this fails", unlike in business (where most of us deploy that concept), where it means "we are greatly inconvenienced."
    posted by lodurr at 4:01 AM on December 8, 2005


    The truth is I've always hated hospitals, and I'm instinctively mistrustful and skeptical of the people who work in them. Something about the unending white-knuckled struggle against death makes them unpleasant to be around, after a time.

    That said: what is the reason for medical orders being written in Latin? I'm honestly curious. Is Latin the lingua franca for doctors around the world, or something?
    posted by Ritchie at 4:20 AM on December 8, 2005


    whoa.. horrific typo/brainfart in my above post.

    .... practicing INSIDE your area of licensure... INSIDE..!

    Yes, lodurr, well said; it's a righteous analogy.
    posted by reflecked at 4:24 AM on December 8, 2005


    Heh. I've been called worse than "a foot-wide shit smeared asshole," in the public part of a hospital ward, at top volume, by a physician who was supervising me.

    That's exactly the point I was trying to make. You didn't feel great as a human-being when that happened to you and I bet you try damn hard not to do it to somebody else unless they deserved it more than you did when that happened to you.

    I think the bottom-line for this is that you're in a profession that one wrong move results in the loss of human life, where most other people's line of work it only involves money.

    "I am a chalk-dusty old neurologist, fairly benign, with a tendency to run on pedantically."

    As a guy who has had some medical problems in the past, these are the doctors that I respect the most. I'm not a fool off of the street, and I want to know what is going on, If I don't know exactly what it is going on in your office, I'm smart enough to look it up online to get a better understanding of it afterwards.

    I had a doctor once steal medical supplies from the hospital for me (I was un-insured). He explained to me that he didn't care about my ability to pay. He's somebody that I now look up to, because he entered medicine for all the right reasons. He didn't care about my ability to pay, he cared that I would be okay. And when the flood of medical bills that I couldn't pay at the time came in, I made damn sure to pay any bill that had his name on it. He gave me the best care he could, knowing the whole time I couldn't pay for it. That is what medicine is about. He just wanted to help people, not become rich. I've thought about it a lot, I don't think he was special, I think he was motivated by what most people become doctors for, helping people.

    You telling the story of a patient almost dying from being on steroids too long and your physical reaction to that afterwards, even though you could easily rationalize it away ethically, tells me that you're in medicine for the right reasons. You're human, definitely yes. Are you any different from anybody else, hell no. I think that's been lost, I think this has been lost in this thread of shit-slinging.

    I would appeal for you to stick around just for the chance to give the right advice when every layman would be wrong. To make a very bad analogy, you describe yourself as being benign, but you have a trained eye for the malignant. I have a feeling that's what you're doing here. You don't make a damn dime being here, but you're here none the less. If you decide to move along, I think anybody who reads this thread will understand, and I wish you the best. But I hope somebody like you is paying attention when I ask some (what I think as stupid) medical question in AskMeFi is paying attention when the answer isn't as simple as everybody else thinks it is.
    posted by Mijo Bijo at 4:46 AM on December 8, 2005


    MetaFilter wins not because everybody here gets it right every time, but because no bullshit goes unchallenged, and something reasonable usually comes out in the wash.

    I want that on a t-shirt.
    posted by If I Had An Anus at 6:02 AM on December 8, 2005


    Metafilter: Take it from one of the little guys.

    This pretty much sums it up for me. The culture of victimization around here is pretty unsettling. I'm sorry that so many of you have been abused by people in power, but that doesn't give you the ability or right to judge the nature of ikkyu2's soul.
    posted by MarkAnd at 6:04 AM on December 8, 2005


    Metafilter: No bullshit goes unchallenged, and something reasonable usually comes out in the wash.
    posted by lodurr at 6:11 AM on December 8, 2005


    I'm sorry that so many of you have been abused by people in power, but that doesn't give you the ability or right to judge the nature of ikkyu2's soul.

    On MF, outrage is always righteous, whether justified or not.
    posted by darukaru at 6:18 AM on December 8, 2005


    "The culture of victimization around here is pretty unsettling. "

    Spare me. The culture of sycophancy around here can also be unsettling.
    posted by klangklangston at 7:04 AM on December 8, 2005


    Spare me. The culture of sycophancy around here can also be unsettling.

    Aww, don't feel bad. Post enough and someone will notice you eventually, you little scamp.
    posted by MarkAnd at 7:18 AM on December 8, 2005


    ikkyu2 demonstrating any assholishness at all is an anomoly along the lines of jessamyn saying, "STFU n00b, look it up your own damn self." - stet

    I tried to imagine jessamyn saying that. I just can't convince myself that this is possible.

    Chalk me up as another that was suprized by the tone of ikkyu2's comments, but I already had a lot of respect for him and my mind wasn't changed by that thread. I appreciate that he takes the time out to respond to AskMe queries regularly. When I read the comments others labeled as 'assholish' (etc) I was mildly taken aback, but I also realized he was giving a different perspective that would help answer the question that was asked. You handled the criticism pretty well, ikkyu2. Please don't assume just because there's some loud mouths ragging on you that we all feel that way.

    re: the ortho outing situation:
    where personally identifiable information appears, replace it with [Personal Information Deleted By Administrator]? - stet

    This sounds like a very reasonable solution. Would you consider it, Matt?
    posted by raedyn at 7:21 AM on December 8, 2005


    Keep in mind that whenever anyone suggests a solution, it has to be implemented. Depending on how the backend works, something that sounds really simple (e.g., just deleting the offending info) might be an error-prone pain in the ass, and implementation of a better method might be time-consuming. Just sayn'.
    posted by lodurr at 7:31 AM on December 8, 2005


    lodurr - I understand what you are saying, and I'm not assuming it's an easy fix for Matt. I don't know well enough whether it would be easy or difficult. So the possibility remains it would be easy or at least easy enough to be worth it.

    But at the moment, Matt hasn't chimed in to tell us how difficult or not this would be. He's only said that he doesn't want to remove a huge chunk of a long & heated conversation. Stet has suggested a solution that would solve that concern and still adress ortho's concerns about his personal info remaining. It's worth floating the idea past the admin.
    posted by raedyn at 7:47 AM on December 8, 2005


    Have you read the thread, raedyn? IIRC there is no single line where the outing occurs.
    (p.s. I hope you didn't drown off the coast of Australia.)
    posted by If I Had An Anus at 8:33 AM on December 8, 2005


    Thee must be a lot of peons on MetaFilter judging by all the ire at a mean ole boss.
    posted by Falconetti at 9:27 AM on December 8, 2005


    I don't understand the ire at professionals, either.

    When an expert on some random project or issue posts "I just happen to be someone who does _____ for a living," they are often greeted with gratitude for sharing their insight and a lot of times, end up on the sidebar.

    But doctors or lawyers who address medical or legal questions are often treated with scorn or derision and accused of trying to show-off or being condescending or are treated with incredulity.

    I just don't get it.
    posted by dios at 10:34 AM on December 8, 2005


    dios, I don't think that's really true, if you're talking just about MeFi. In general, maybe, but i'd question even that. I guess I'd like to see some examples.

    If what you're thinking of is people's reactions to your expressed opinions on constitutional law, then your observations would be correct, but I wouldn't agree with teh conclusion you draw.
    posted by lodurr at 10:41 AM on December 8, 2005


    I don't understand the ire at professionals, either.

    You mean one doctor, right? That's what this discussion was about, anyway.
    posted by Rothko at 11:16 AM on December 8, 2005


    At least before it got sidetracked by strawmen...
    posted by Rothko at 11:31 AM on December 8, 2005


    ALEX REYNOLDS, I DEMAND YOUR OPINION ON "THEIR" VS. "HIS OR HERS!"

    (Derailed, my ass! Pronouns are always important!)
    posted by klangklangston at 11:56 AM on December 8, 2005


    klang, I think he's trying to pick a fight with dios (on the premise that it's bad to make a thread be about you! you! you!, oddly enough), not suggesting that the pronoun debate is a strawman.

    And I, too, would like to hear Rothko (and dios) chime in on the pronoun debate. In fact, I'd much prefer it to any other, more likely followup.
    posted by cortex at 12:23 PM on December 8, 2005


    I've always used "his or her" when it's not awkward. I've never used "their" as a singular pronoun. Sorry, trolls!
    posted by Rothko at 12:34 PM on December 8, 2005


    Here you go, cortex: a history of the usage of "their" as a singular epicene pronoun, dating back to the 14th century. (Found via Bill Walsh's blog.)

    Oh, and I like ikkuyu2's posts a lot. Having worked in a hospital (assistant to a neurosurgeon, the hot-doggiest of the hot doggies) for a few years, I wasn't that surprised by his comment. The vehemence with which he expressed it, maybe.
    posted by Sully6 at 12:35 PM on December 8, 2005


    What have you used when "his or her" is awkward, though?
    posted by cortex at 12:47 PM on December 8, 2005


    Deborah Tannen divides the world into two types of people. Let's call them "authoritarian" and "egalitarian" (authoritarian is a little strong here - "people who respect the hierarchy" is more accurate but clumsier).

    Authoritarians get along peacefully whenever the hierarchy is clear. All members will work to enforce the hierarcy, regardless of their position in it. When there is ambiguity a struggle for dominance results.

    Egalitarians, on the other hand, want to flatten the social structure so that everyone is equal. If someone has fallen behind, they will work to bring them up to speed. If someone has gotten ahead, they will "flattened." Egalitarians are just as ruthless at enforcing their chosen social structure as authoritarians (according to Tannen).

    Now the thing is, normally, egalitarians only function as egalitarians in unmixed company. The presence of a single authoritarian is sufficient to cause the whole group to respect the hierarchy.

    I think the internet obscures enough of the normal social signals that egalitarians can function as egalitarians even in "mixed" company. The result is this thread. No value judgement, by the way, just an observation.

    Incidentally, Tannen calls these two groups by different names: authoritarians are "men" and egalitarians are "women."
    posted by zanni at 1:01 PM on December 8, 2005


    What have you used when "his or her" is awkward, though?

    Usually the male pronoun, by convention and habit.
    posted by Rothko at 1:31 PM on December 8, 2005


    All I know is that it's "his or hers" in the AP style, in the MLA style and in the APA style.

    Style guides are conservative by nature. The latest (15th) edition of the Chicago Manual doesn't say singular they is wrong, just that "credibility is lost with some readers" (5.204). It's become much more acceptable in the last couple of decades, and I guarantee you that in another couple of decades, avoiding it will seem as old-fashioned as insisting on media as a plural does now. (And to those of you who respond "Media is a plural!": you'd better use agenda that way too, because it's the same formation.)

    Just back on the important topic - the use of 'they/their' - I can't see why people would object to the extension of roles to personal pronoun substitutes...'They' for 'he' or 'she' or instead of 'he or she' is eminently sensible where one doesn't want to be gender-specific.

    Exactly. Unless your ears are stopped by idées fixes about "correct usage," it sounds far better than the alternatives, which is why people use it and always have, which is why it's perfectly good English. If it doesn't sound good to you, of course, you shouldn't use it; just don't go around telling other people they shouldn't, because you have no argument other than the argument from ipse dixit, perfectly expressed here:

    "their" is not a singular pronoun. That's just the way it is.

    Sorry, pal, you can huff and puff all you want, but you're still wrong. And I'm not claiming my own authority as higher, I'm basing my argument on actual facts. See my earlier links, and now Sully6's, for evidence.

    ikkyu2's technique does not seem abusive to me. It comes off as a little arrogant, but as a stance for getting the job done, a touch of arrogance works, and that's why so many doctors cultivate it. Being liked is nice, but being effective is more important.

    Yup. You know, I get the feeling some of you have never actually held a job... oh yeah, that's right, a lot of students here. Well, you'll live and learn. Let me tell you a little something. In many workplaces, probably most, there are different divisions, groups of people doing different kinds of work, each convinced its own specialty is the most important in the company and is being woefully ill-paid and disrespected compared to those goofoffs down the hall. Me, I've been in editing departments for over two decades, and I can tell you, we were always paranoid about the art department, the traffic department, and the bosses (in more or less ascending scale) messing with our sacred work and prerogatives, and we had no hesitation whatever about letting them know they had no business interfering because they didn't know beans about our specialty. Furthermore, we had no compunction about making it more mysterious than it really was, doing the equivalent of writing things in Latin, if you will. Why? Not (just) because we were assholes, but because we genuinely believed that our efforts to get the copy whipped into shape were vital, and if the art department wanted to move some paragraphs to a later point because they "looked better" there (true story), they deserved to get slapped down hard. (I'm sure, mind you, they felt the same about us.) Now, imagine that lives are at stake instead of merely the coherence of a piece of prose. You don't think a little arrogance might be called for on occasion?

    So, ikkyu2, whaddya think about Babinski's sign?
    *twitches toes reflexively*
    posted by languagehat at 1:32 PM on December 8, 2005


    Usually the male pronoun, by convention and habit.

    Okay, I can dig it. I wish there was some easy way to collect data on where you (or any other person) does and doesn't find "his or her" appropriate. That sort of distinction, the seeing of where and (when possible) how such decisions are made by different folks -- it gets me going.
    posted by cortex at 1:37 PM on December 8, 2005


    "the seeing of where and (when possible) how such decisions are made by different folks"

    Parse that! *resigns*
    posted by cortex at 1:38 PM on December 8, 2005


    I did my college thesis paper on the he/she/their issue from a semantics perspective, back in the 80's, fascinating stuff. Did anyone notice that Flickr USED to use singular they when referring to sex-indefinite users and have since changed to to say either "he or she" or, maybe they pluralized it. Either way, I was all like "yay" and then I was all like "boo."
    posted by jessamyn at 1:58 PM on December 8, 2005


    "His or her" sounds clunky almost every time to my ears. In cases where I can't write around it, I use "their."

    Of course, whatever I write for work does get edited, and usually by someone who cleaves to one style guide or another and will thus change it to "his or her" or just "his."

    But really, I imagine most people would not be troubled to read or hear "their" in this context.
    posted by Sully6 at 2:07 PM on December 8, 2005


    I did my college thesis paper on the he/she/their issue from a semantics perspective

    Good god, you really are the Coolest Person on MetaFilter.
    *salaams*
    posted by languagehat at 2:08 PM on December 8, 2005


    I wish there was some easy way to collect data on where you (or any other person) does and doesn't find "his or her" appropriate.

    Sometimes I use fe/male or s/he in technical write-ups — when it makes sense — but again these situations come down to too many variables to give a conclusive answer. I don't use "his or her" etc. as a way to be PC, but to recognize that gender-specific vocabulary potentially eliminates half of my readership. If it isn't awkward to read and gets the appropriate meaning across, I use it. If not, I go with what works. I imagine other writers make the same decisions every day.
    posted by Rothko at 2:15 PM on December 8, 2005


    Huh. I admit I was thinking, as much as anything, of casual spoken usage rather than written. Do you use singular-they in speech?
    posted by cortex at 2:25 PM on December 8, 2005


    I try not to. I've always been taught that "they" is plural. Hey, I've only just reconditioned myself to use "data" in plural form and to pronounce "telomeres" as "tee-low-meers" and not "tell-o-mares". Give me time.
    posted by Rothko at 2:29 PM on December 8, 2005


    No rush, no rush. I'm trying to get a coworker to unclench regarding "nukyuhler", in the mean time...
    posted by cortex at 2:31 PM on December 8, 2005


    I had a doctor once steal medical supplies from the hospital for me (I was un-insured). He explained to me that he didn't care about my ability to pay. He's somebody that I now look up to, because he entered medicine for all the right reasons. He didn't care about my ability to pay, he cared that I would be okay. And when the flood of medical bills that I couldn't pay at the time came in, I made damn sure to pay any bill that had his name on it.

    Isn't that the exact opposite of the example he was setting for you?
    posted by phearlez at 2:33 PM on December 8, 2005


    coriolisdave says: "Kinda what Jimbob said. But I'd like to specifically respond to phearlez -- I think ortho has a pretty solid argument going for him, and frankly if I were him I'd be pretty fucking pissed off too."

    I do not think there should be a double standard for doctors & lawyers vs everyone else when it comes to outing protection, I was just commenting on ortho's tone and it's not the first time I've seen it from him. He's free to behave as he likes, I'm just suggesting that ranting and abuse rarely sways people around to your side.

    However since you bring it up, I read the thread Matt says Ortho is making the stink over and he posts information about the extension causing the brouhaha with "the author who is not me" over and over and over again in cutsey fashion, including this gem:

    bugbread writes "the few bug fix suggestions I made"

    I emailed the author (who isn't me), and he wrote back that the fix was actually a special build, just for bugbread (who isn't you)
    So if someone wants anonymity they need to act like it. If he's not going to walk the walk wrt his anonymity I don't see how he's got a lot of right to demand others do so.
    posted by phearlez at 3:21 PM on December 8, 2005


    phearlez, I believe you are citing the wrong thread. There is older history behind that recent thread.
    posted by cortex at 3:30 PM on December 8, 2005


    I want to add my note of appreciation for ikkyu2's participation in AskMetafilter. In particular, I've noticed the times he has suggested that the person with a question email him (two examples); pretty amazing.
    posted by WestCoaster at 3:31 PM on December 8, 2005


    (the thread in question)
    posted by cortex at 3:42 PM on December 8, 2005


    Cortex - I would have assumed so as well but since Matt said: "And if I remember correctly, you were coy and refuting statements you said earlier on the site, acting like you never wrote a plugin" and "actually, ortho, I went back and reread the whole thread you wanted deleted, and in it people are concerned that your server is hosting data about their activity on the site and people that met you in real life mention being lied to their faces." Which seems to describe last week's thread, not that much older one.
    posted by phearlez at 3:53 PM on December 8, 2005


    phearlz, I agree that Matt seems to have been talking about that more recent thread, so I see where we misapprehended each other. I'll amend: I think the thread about which ortho is concerned is the older one to which I linked, regardless of which thread Matt is talking about.
    posted by cortex at 4:30 PM on December 8, 2005


    And this is probably the key summarizing comment by ortho, which mirrors his expression of frustration today.

    ('phearlez', of course. Sorry.)

    I can understand that frustration, but as someone pointed out, selective editing of the thread would be a huge pain in the ass. On the other hand, the thread stands as a sort of historical artifact, and deleting it seems over-the-top. On the other hand, I sympathize with ortho's desire to see his identity unmapped. On the other hand, it seems like ortho's ire would not have been raised if he'd been outed in a completely positive and supportive thread. On the other hand...it's kind of a clusterfuck of a thread that way.
    posted by cortex at 4:37 PM on December 8, 2005


    "I've always used "his or her" when it's not awkward. I've never used "their" as a singular pronoun. Sorry, trolls!"

    If I were mental, I'd go through your posting history, looking to undermine that claim. BECAUSE MEFI DETECTIVISM IS THE ORDER OF THE DAY.

    Instead I'll note that I generally agree with you, though I'll add the caveat that nothing annoys me more than seeing "one" used as a singular pronoun. It's just unecessarily highfalutin' at almost every point and is a reflexive distancing action on the part of authors.

    "(And to those of you who respond "Media is a plural!": you'd better use agenda that way too, because it's the same formation.)"

    Really? I guess that makes sense on some level (agendum), but again, "media" is plural because I get yelled at/red-inked if I use it singularly. To be perfectly clear, it's acceptable as either plural or as collective noun (same way "data" is— it's just that almost no one refers to a single datum, but refering to the data is fine).
    But hey, morally I'm just a prescriptivist Eichmann, as I don't particularly care whether a construction "should" be correct, just that it is.
    posted by klangklangston at 5:00 PM on December 8, 2005


    I've seen "agenda" pluralised as "agendae".


    I'm waiting (in the same way characters in Lovecraft wait for the return of the Old Ones) to see "datae".
    posted by thatwhichfalls at 5:13 PM on December 8, 2005


    Rothko behaving according to his self-perception: 1 (and several other examples in that thread)

    Rothko quoting (without comment, of course) a violation by someone else: 2

    But! AlexReynolds goofs! 3

    Still, a pretty solid record from my review.

    (cue creepy music)
    posted by cortex at 5:32 PM on December 8, 2005


    (regarding "their", re: klang)
    posted by cortex at 5:33 PM on December 8, 2005


    Whats the deal with Rothko's obsession with calling everyone a "troll"? People who use "their" as third-person singular are trolls?

    Whenever the descriptivism vs. prescriptivism debate comes up—as it often does here on mefi—I'm usually on the descriptive side of the fence with languaghat (from whom I think the wisest guidance on this matter is offered); and to me the prescriptivists seem very annoying and prissy, not the least because I think their position is pseudo-rational. And then I remind myself about the various things regarding language where I find myself over yonder with the prescriptivists...where my position is completely rational and my irritation justifiable.

    Funny how that works, eh?
    posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:40 PM on December 8, 2005


    People who use "their" as third-person singular are trolls?

    Yes, Keith, people who use "their", "there" and "they're" improperly are TROLLS, since third-person singular would require "they's".
    posted by Rothko at 6:16 PM on December 8, 2005


    Instead I'll note that I generally agree with you, though I'll add the caveat that nothing annoys me more than seeing "one" used as a singular pronoun. It's just unecessarily highfalutin' at almost every point and is a reflexive distancing action on the part of authors.

    Ironically, given your authoritarian disposition, this is how it is done in German.
    posted by Rothko at 6:23 PM on December 8, 2005


    "Yes, Keith, people who use 'their', 'there' and 'they're' improperly are TROLLS, since third-person singular would require 'they's'.

    Despite the fact that there was never a valid comparison between someone using your real name, which was your mefi identity, and my real name, which wasn't—in the interest of not fanning the flames, for a good while now I've avoided using "Alex" and have assiduously used "Rothko" even though you are, and will forever be, "Alex Reynolds" to me.

    But you've just gone right on using my name in every single goddam comment you've written that has anything to do with me.

    I think the thing that you don't understand, Alex, is that you've been banned from mefi and have regularly made a fool of yourself here in metatalk because you're a petulent little twat who cherishes your perceived hurts as if they were your lovers.
    posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:47 PM on December 8, 2005


    you're like an old married couple
    posted by cortex at 7:04 PM on December 8, 2005


    Keith M. Ellis, I kept using your name because I was hoping you'd finally get the point about why I was sick of you using my first name even though I'd asked you not to, repeatedly.

    I'm not sure I really care what you think or feel about your name being used at this point, and I guess I should keep calling you by your first, middle and last names, since you were happy to keep doing it to me despite my polite requests to knock it off.

    You've been more impolite and arrogant lately than I could ever hope to be in my short tenure here, Keith. You're a laughing stock from all of this, even if you don't realize it.

    The only reason the adminstrators haven't given you a timeout for the repeated vulgarities you've thrown my way is that you get a free pass, like a certain few others here. Many have been given timeouts for the kinds of things you've said. It sucks, but I'll deal with it.

    In the meantime, my email is posted in my profile. You're welcome to contact me and resolve this privately. But until you admit you were continually needling me and agree to knock it off, I'll either ignore you or just throw your attitude right back in your miserable face.
    posted by Rothko at 7:20 PM on December 8, 2005


    cortex, phearlez, my references were to the older thread, not the newer one (some people raise suspicions about the server hosting their data on the old thread).

    After people faking cancer and dying, acting like four right wing sock puppets, and hacking databases to become old users, I never know what to expect from little metatalk threads. ortho's old thread seemed like more than just a few people digging up his real name. It seemed like they might uncover something more, which is why I left it around, because removing it back then would probably lead to more suspicion. Now that time has passed and ortho didn't totally put one over on us, maybe I could remove the older thread, but I stand by my lack of deleting it at the time -- there was more to it than a few people trying to figure out who he was -- they were trying to get at the truth.
    posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:26 PM on December 8, 2005


    If it would shut orthogonality up about the stupid outing, it would be fine with me if the thread went down the memory hole.

    It would be nice if it came with a promise that he'd stop telling people what their motivaions are, which is really what pissed me off in the first place. I know not to bother asking for an apology.
    posted by If I Had An Anus at 8:13 PM on December 8, 2005


    Sogar mehr ironisch, habe ich Deutsch studiert.

    Etherial Bligh: Leave Rothko alone. He's been nothing but in good humor in this thread, and you're behaving like a petulent twat. Knock it off.
    posted by klangklangston at 9:57 PM on December 8, 2005


    Look, the rules are simple: I can provide a laminated pocket sized version of the rules for quick reference, as needed.
    posted by Bugbread at 1:01 AM on December 9, 2005


    "Etherial Bligh: Leave Rothko alone. He's been nothing but in good humor in this thread, and you're behaving like a petulent twat. Knock it off."

    He's not behaved "in good humor" in this thread. He's whined about "trolls" and "double-standards", with a baiting of dios thrown in for good measure. And the same one-sentence comment three times.

    Alex Reynolds has used my real name explicitly for a week while I've referred to him consistently as "Rothko" because, as is typical of him, he never learns to leave well enough alone. He's been trying to piss me off. He succeeded.

    And about this naming business: if I were banned and came back as, say, "kmellis", everyone here would continue to think of me as "Ethereal Bligh" or "EB"...unless I did what bunnyfire did and wait a good while to come back and to keep my identity mostly a secret. If I came back a few days after I was banned with a new name, no way would anyone let me get away with it. If only Alex had taken bunnyfire's example to heart.

    It's a serious breach of etiquette here to use someone's real name—even under the best of conditions. The only time it's okay is when it's the person's username. I've used my real name all over the web and when I have, I've never asked someone not to, um, call me by name. I didn't use my real name as my username here. Alex Reynolds has.

    I respect bunnyfire's transformation to her new identity because she returned after a good length of time away and has never claimed that she was treated unfairly. Alex Reynolds, when banned, morphed immediately into "Rothko" and expects to be given a fresh start and now hates it when anyone calls him by his old name. (Which happens to be his real first name. That's his problem, not mine—he selected it in the first place.)
    posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:02 AM on December 9, 2005


    This really has been an extraordinary thread, like a mashup of 10 soap operas in a breaking news broadcast where the host gets mauled by a circus lion and zombie Bob Hope goes down on OBLaden. All the major food groups were represented.

    Oh Ethereal Bligh please email Rothko and extend a hand to end this rising feud. Think of it as a community gesture/contribution. Note - I remain unaligned. But it's all so petty isn't it? Fix it -easypeasy.
    posted by peacay at 1:20 AM on December 9, 2005


    E_B, your sarcasm filter is a little out of kilter, I think.
    posted by lodurr at 4:04 AM on December 9, 2005


    Oh, my discussion of bunnyfire/konolia was entirely unrelated to to bugbread's comment, as you can see by the timing of the posts.
    posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:21 AM on December 9, 2005


    I was really thinking more about personal pronounds.
    posted by lodurr at 4:53 AM on December 9, 2005


    I don't particularly care whether a construction "should" be correct, just that it is.

    Are you joking? What does this even mean?

    Leave Rothko alone. He's been nothing but in good humor in this thread

    OK, now I know you're joking.
    posted by languagehat at 6:14 AM on December 9, 2005


    Anybody else notice that gmail has finally replaced "move to trash" with "delete"? Good for them.
    posted by cortex at 6:15 AM on December 9, 2005


    Bligh, you missed the joke. Then he called you Keith, which you have decided is "It's a serious breach of etiquette here to use someone's real name—even under the best of conditions."
    But there was a pattern of using Alex's name after he went to Rothko as an attack on him, whether or not that was your intention. And further, the "breach of etiquette" is subjective. While you've refered to him by Rothko in this thread, you've also gone off on him disproportionate to the level deserved (mostly because you missed a joke. It seems to me that Rothko was making fun of himself for a moment).
    So, again, you're acting like a petulant twat and need to chill out. He's not necessarily making it easier for you, and has a tendency to escalate things, but hey, gimme some credit here for not being mental. I don't hold any malice toward you; this isn't Dame saying that you've crossed some imaginary line. He pushed your buttons because you were out there offering your buttons to be pushed. I've done the same with him. Take a moment and laugh at yourself, then let it go.
    By the way, my name is Josh, and I don't really care if people call me by that.
    posted by klangklangston at 6:19 AM on December 9, 2005


    Hey, josh, i'm eric. How ya doin?
    posted by lodurr at 6:22 AM on December 9, 2005


    "Are you joking? What does this even mean?"

    Oh, just that I don't care about, in this instance, advocating for "their," because I have enough trouble remembering all the differences between the style guides I use now. I don't care if it's OK to use "their" as a replacement for "his or hers" as a descriptivist notion, just that it's not "correct" according to the guides that I have to work under. (Or, to put it another way, with regard to my usage, I don't care that there are scare quotes around "correct." For formal writing, I use "his or hers" or some other construction, but in speech and in informal writing, I just use "their." Much like how I have no shame about using "ain't" or "highfalutin'" or "pig-fucker.")
    posted by klangklangston at 6:25 AM on December 9, 2005


    Hi Eric. Is this... an AA meeting?
    heh.
    posted by klangklangston at 6:26 AM on December 9, 2005


    Hi, my name is Bill and I am a Metaholic. I admit that I am powerless over Metafilter.
    posted by caddis at 6:50 AM on December 9, 2005


    Dammit, klang, my name is also Josh and I will take continued reference to you via our co-name without attribution as a serious breach of etiquette.
    posted by cortex at 6:56 AM on December 9, 2005


    Heh. Well, Bill, I don't know about you, but I'm powerless before metafilter. ... and I'm just not going to go into the whole "higher power" thing. Too embarrassing.
    posted by lodurr at 6:56 AM on December 9, 2005


    Don't you usually capitalize Higher Powers? Nevermind...
    posted by Rothko at 7:05 AM on December 9, 2005


    He's on quonsar's 12-stepper.
    posted by cortex at 7:07 AM on December 9, 2005


    Hey Bill, my dad is named Bill too. But I won't hold that against you.
    posted by If I Had An Anus at 7:13 AM on December 9, 2005


    Alex Reynolds, when banned, morphed immediately into "Rothko" and expects to be given a fresh start and now hates it when anyone calls him by his old name. (Which happens to be his real first name. That's his problem, not mine—he selected it in the first place.)

    What Keith M. Ellis doesn't get is that my folks picked my name, not me.

    Secondly, Keith M. Ellis forgot that I started off my "new account" by publishing a utility that a few people here had asked for, which required many hours of work. Instead of getting thanks for it, I was immediately called, quote, a "hypocrite". So I empathize with orthogonality somewhat. Some folks don't want to let go, no matter what.

    I won't hem and haw about how bitter you are, Keith, except to say that you, and people just like you would never stoop so low as to give anyone a "fresh start". So don't even pretend that you would have come down from your perch to do so here, Keith.
    posted by Rothko at 7:35 AM on December 9, 2005


    Good god, what does it take to derail a PersonalityFilter thread around here!?
    posted by lodurr at 7:40 AM on December 9, 2005


    around here!?

    lodurr, please be sensitive to gender diversity and use "here or shere" (or alternatively "s/here"). Avoid, however, the less-formal "there".
    posted by cortex at 7:50 AM on December 9, 2005


    Eric, I'm TRYIN'.
    (and a hearty guffaw for 7418Josh's comment).
    posted by klangklangston at 8:59 AM on December 9, 2005


    (And Alex, when someone defends you, shut up. Otherwise, it's like you're casting about for a shovel to dig your hole deeper faster.)
    posted by klangklangston at 9:01 AM on December 9, 2005


    Thanks, 23558Josh.
    posted by cortex at 9:13 AM on December 9, 2005


    Some folks don't want to let go, no matter what. - Rothko

    That's rich.
    posted by raedyn at 9:24 AM on December 9, 2005


    I don't care if it's OK to use "their" as a replacement for "his or hers" as a descriptivist notion, just that it's not "correct" according to the guides that I have to work under. (Or, to put it another way, with regard to my usage, I don't care that there are scare quotes around "correct." For formal writing, I use "his or hers" or some other construction, but in speech and in informal writing, I just use "their." Much like how I have no shame about using "ain't" or "highfalutin'" or "pig-fucker.")

    Ah, now I see. As a fellow editor who has to juggle style guides constantly, I feel your pain. Thanks for taking the time to explain, 23558Josh!
    posted by languagehat at 9:26 AM on December 9, 2005


    He's not 23558Josh, I'm 23358Josh!
    posted by cortex at 9:27 AM on December 9, 2005


    Wait, no, I'm 7418Josh. Shit.
    posted by cortex at 9:27 AM on December 9, 2005


    As I said, some people don't want to let go, no matter what. Thanks for proving my point, raedyn.
    posted by Rothko at 9:28 AM on December 9, 2005


    *giggle*

    Just HAD to get the last word, eh?
    posted by raedyn at 9:32 AM on December 9, 2005


    Thanks, raedyn, for proving my point yet again.
    posted by Rothko at 9:34 AM on December 9, 2005


    Look, I'm not interested in starting a fight with you. I think you're an intelligent guy and I'm often interested to hear what you have to say on the blue. We agree on a lot of topics. For the most part, I like you.

    But I have noticed that you have a tendancy to think that everyone else "can't let stuff go" and "makes personal attacks" etc. And often your observations are BANG ON. But I'm not convinced you're able to see the ways in which you exacerbate the problem and do exactly the same things you accuse everyone else of doing.

    I'm aware there's no way for you to be able to tell in print like this, but I hold zero hostility towards you. In fact, I only say anything because I have respect for you. But you don't demonstrate the ability to hold your tongue better than anyone else around here. That's fine, it's just what MetaFilter is like a lot of the time. But please don't forget that there's two (or more) sides to every story.

    Cheers.
    posted by raedyn at 9:45 AM on December 9, 2005


    go home, guys.

    I don't care where you sleep but you can't stay here.
    posted by fishfucker at 9:52 AM on December 9, 2005


    I find it funny that I was trying to poke lighthearted fun at myself, got bullied, and then the act of defending myself earns comments like "stop digging a deeper hole" and "that's rich". Hy-larious and not tiresome whatsoever.
    posted by Rothko at 9:55 AM on December 9, 2005


    One solution: actually literally respond from the start with "I was just trying to poke lighthearted fun at myself. Don't read so much into the 'trolls' comment, yo."

    I see where you're coming from -- I did get the joke -- but it seems like the back and forth with EB over the name thing has nothing to do with the misunderstanding of the joke, and that is probably what raedyn was (obnoxiously at first) getting at. Calling someone on a misunderstanding is one thing; entrenching is another entirely.
    posted by cortex at 11:12 AM on December 9, 2005


    (Maybe a useful clarification: I put "stop digging a deeper hole" and "that's rich" in two different buckets; the latter is just antagonistic, but the former is something that I agree with, regarding you (and others and, when I'm not being mindful, myself): it's best to just disengage, preferably coolly rather than in an apparent huff, and just let it die.)
    posted by cortex at 11:15 AM on December 9, 2005


    (and I do recognize the contradiction of continuing a conversation for the sake of suggesting (preaching?) that you should disengage from a conversation)
    posted by cortex at 11:20 AM on December 9, 2005

    fishfucker: go home, guys.

    I don't care where you sleep but you can't stay here.
    [scrunches up eyebrows and stabs wildly with finger /] You can't tell me what to do! [slips] You're not hte boss of me, fishfucker! [stops, cackles wildly] fishfucker! hey, this dude calls himself fish-fucker! this guy fucks fishies! here, fishie-fishie-fishie [trips, falls, snores]
    posted by lodurr at 11:22 AM on December 9, 2005


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