January 7, 2006

3:08 PM

Is y2karl's compulsive 'make huge extract, link and run' behaviour a grand experiment in this phenomenon?
posted by Firas to etiquette/policy at 3:08 PM (139 comments total)

I'm very sympathetic to Karl's cause and point of view, and impressed by his voracious reading habits, but maybe he could use a blog and/or something like del.ico.us or digg.com to keep track of these things?

I seem to remember that troutfishing was banned or something for similarly axe-grinding in this obsessive manner back in November 04.

I'm not recommending a reprimand, just pointing out that (a) it's annoying, (b) it's useless because (just a guess) people just scroll past large blocks of serial excerption, but mostly because (c) it's like his relative seniority within the community has led to a bit of a laissez-faire attitude with these (continual) annoyances of his, like a sort of fornightly occurance where an uncle gets drunk and shouts at apparitions. What's up with that?

May I suggest the delicately seductive format of a list of links with teasing summaries rather than the bludgeoning pastes of a ungainly third of every article followed by a throwaway link?
posted by Firas at 3:08 PM on January 7, 2006

I have the sense that y2Karl has an agenda that he is trying to promote, and that he feels pretty strongly about it, but I have no idea what it is because I routinely skip everything he posts due to hating his posting style.
posted by found missing at 3:21 PM on January 7, 2006

He likes other people to do his thinking. It's certainly easier. Don't be hard on the guy just because he's lazy.

(y2karl at least cites his sources, unlike many MeFites. No man is an island, and no thought is original.)
posted by Eideteker at 3:23 PM on January 7, 2006

I'd rather his annotations than explicit opinions. His opinions are evident in the entire body of his posts, and he is a deep-seeing critic of the administration. He thinks plenty, and he's led me to lots of very useful sources that I now read for myself. He consistently links to the best of the web on the topics of his interest.
posted by By The Grace of God at 3:29 PM on January 7, 2006

That's wonderful, but does the content excuse the format? Specifically: is it ok for other people to vomit up their daily reading like this?
posted by Firas at 3:32 PM on January 7, 2006

Oh, he's a critic of the administration? What a lonely position on MeFi. No wonder he has to beat everyone over the head with boatloads of quotations.
posted by found missing at 3:35 PM on January 7, 2006

yew n00bz r teh funy
posted by quonsar at 3:42 PM on January 7, 2006

Oh oh you've unleashed quonsar.
posted by Rothko at 3:53 PM on January 7, 2006

Here's a question for y2karl detractors: His behavior has been consistent for a long time, and he's been criticized on MetaTalk many times. Obviously, Matt could have banned him a long time ago and hasn't. So what makes you think your MeTa thread is going to be constructive, that you've discovered some new angle of criticism no one has used previously?

Or are you just creating these threads to bitch and moan? I suppose that's fine; I think Matt's said before that he doesn't mind if MeTa acts like a steam valve on occasion. But be honest about your motivation. If you genuinely expect some result from your thread, what makes you think that expectation is reasonable?
posted by cribcage at 3:59 PM on January 7, 2006

y2Karl has an agenda that he is trying to promote

yeah, that torture is, like, uncool. what an asshole.
posted by matteo at 4:02 PM on January 7, 2006

I'm not a y2karl detractor; I'm just rubbed wrong by his rivers of spewage. That's not all there is to y2karl, after all. Actually, to be honest, I don't have much steam to release over the matter either—I'm mainly just puzzled. If matt has given y2karl sanctuary to be obnoxious, that would answer my question.
posted by Firas at 4:03 PM on January 7, 2006

There are a number of posters whose writing style is immediately recognizable, and I just scroll right past them when I see them.

Here's a tip: did you know that hitting the space bar will move the page down, almost instantly? You don't have to go through all the trouble of using that scroll-bar to the right.
posted by interrobang at 4:06 PM on January 7, 2006

what an asshole
Well argued. y2Karl's style is okay because he is anti-torture? I've got news for you. His style is torture.
posted by found missing at 4:09 PM on January 7, 2006

Shhh! Ten more posts and he'll save the world!

My frustration with y2karl's endless political axe-grinding is that his cultural posts, though little seen these days, are absolutely amazing, among the best that MetaFilter has to offer. Exhibits 1, 2, 3. Every time I see another big block'o text from Karl about how Bush is teh suck, I feel wistful at what he might have done with that energy.
posted by LarryC at 4:37 PM on January 7, 2006

Y'know, I both agree with y2karl, and occasionally find his posting style irritating, but y'know what?

That's his style. That's who he is. If I expect people to make allowances for my style, I have to make allowances for his. And that goes for all of us. Just accept people the way they are, will you?
posted by jonmc at 4:39 PM on January 7, 2006

it's like his relative seniority within the community has led to a bit of a laissez-faire attitude with these (continual) annoyances of his

I think this description actually describes someone else in the thread.
posted by docgonzo at 4:45 PM on January 7, 2006

jonmc: I'm not criticizing his haircut, you know. Is it really ok to squish another person's thread—not just derail, not just flood, but render it useless—because it's one's style?

docgonzo: aye, but what can you do with the villiage idiot? It's easy to ignore those who've found a license to be assholes via a cult of personality; it's more puzzling to understand why someone's into being rude when they seem to be decidedly unposessed of such a temperament.
posted by Firas at 4:51 PM on January 7, 2006

(y2karl at least cites his sources, unlike many MeFites. No man is an island, and no thought is original.)

-- John Donne, Meditations XIV
posted by nicwolff at 5:02 PM on January 7, 2006

-- John Donne, Meditations XVII
posted by fondle at 5:11 PM on January 7, 2006

jonmc writes "...If I expect people to make allowances for my style, I have to make allowances for his. And that goes for all of us. Just accept people the way they are, will you?"

Wins; it's all a matter of preference, end of thread.
posted by moonbird at 5:23 PM on January 7, 2006

Nobody likes my style, either.
But it's cooler when you don't change whatever your style is just to conform to what others think you should do.
posted by Balisong at 5:31 PM on January 7, 2006

Leave y2karl alone, he is fighting the good fight. His posting style is unusual but as mentioned above a tap on the space bar is all you need to deal with it.

If Metafilter were a stew he would be one of the chunks. Me like Chunk.
posted by Mr T at 5:47 PM on January 7, 2006

he is fighting the good fight

With who? Flooding Metafilter with long blocks of left wing political tracts is like bringing coal to Newcastle.
posted by LarryC at 6:05 PM on January 7, 2006

Especially when what Newcastle really needs are some fricking defenders.
posted by sachinag at 6:09 PM on January 7, 2006

Short answer to your question: NO!

Long answer: Leave y2karl alone, you are not worthy.
posted by caddis at 6:13 PM on January 7, 2006

I'm on y2karl's side, politically, but I never, never read his posts, and, um, especially never when they're in that squint-o-vision font that he uses on his front-page posts. I absolutely agree that the post cited above is not conducive to discussion, and that he shouldn't do such things. I also absolutely agree that he's been told that over and over, so I don't have much hope for his changing. One thing for sure--his posts are so distinctive that they're easy to recognize, and thus skip.
posted by MrMoonPie at 6:20 PM on January 7, 2006

Whatever y2karl may or may not be, whatever he does or might not do, he's smart, and we need every last smart person we can get 'round here.

Now that he's smart and also eschewing use of the <small> and <i> tags, all my dreams have come true.

I also don't read his posts. But I'm totally OK with him making 'em.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:26 PM on January 7, 2006

Karls the man and newcastle have been going downhill ever since they got rid of robson.
posted by sgt.serenity at 6:34 PM on January 7, 2006

Does anyone read y2karl's posts?

<crickets>

Should somebody tell him?
posted by gleuschk at 6:37 PM on January 7, 2006

The time I spent reading this thread would have been incalculably better spent reading a y2karl posting -- even one whose conclusions I disagreed with. At least those contain information and citations, as opposed to this empty, worthless bitching.
posted by George_Spiggott at 6:37 PM on January 7, 2006

What caddis said, for at least the reasons cited by LarryC, and furthermore because I appreciate the very thread you cite. It is unclear to me how multiple posts faceting a topic and including direct, discussive followup posts from the thread originator could possibly be characterized as "link and run."

You may wish y2k his own blog (as do I) but I would hope he never ceases to craft these apparent thorns in your side.
posted by mwhybark at 6:39 PM on January 7, 2006

I can't believe nobody has busted out the small tags yet. I'm all about busting out
posted by allen.spaulding at 6:40 PM on January 7, 2006

I also don't read his posts. But I'm totally OK with him making 'em.

I too am OK with him making his posts in any format he wants provided he does it on his own blog. I mean, come on. Look at this. No seriously, look at it. And scroll. Lots of front page posts, tons of them. And what do all the Iraqfilter ones have in common? Annoying tiny text and gigantic excerpts. His posts on other topics conform to the typical style.

I propose y2karl choose one of the following: get his own blog where he can do whatever he wants regarding formatting, or sort of modify his style when posting about politics to better flow with the rest of the site. His front page posts on Iraq are aesthetically disruptive, and rather than cause me to pay closer attention, cause me to ignore them.
posted by tweak at 6:59 PM on January 7, 2006

it's like his relative seniority within the community has led to a bit of a laissez-faire attitude with these (continual) annoyances of his, like a sort of fornightly occurance where an uncle gets drunk and shouts at apparitions.

It's much harder to ignore a yelling drunkard than it is to simply choose to not look at words on a computer monitor. Is it really that annoying to scroll past text?
posted by 23skidoo at 7:20 PM on January 7, 2006

I'm just glad he started using the <blockquote> tag.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:36 PM on January 7, 2006

For the record, I appreciate y2karl's content.

Others? (In fact, the poster I alluded to?) Uh, not so much.
posted by docgonzo at 8:30 PM on January 7, 2006

I don't get the whole thing about calling somebody out because you don't like their FPP. Unless something is offensively rule-breaking or just downright obnoxious, how hard is it to just not click on the link? Nobody's making you read this stuff.
posted by Afroblanco at 8:50 PM on January 7, 2006

I read almost all of y2karl's posts, and I acknowledge why his style is such. He typically cites somewhat dense material, with little editorializing beyond the passage selection. Because he cites big blocks, he uses small font so as to make a small footprint on the front page.
I don't see a huge problem, and if need be, font enlargement in Firefox is as easy as ctrl+mousewheel.
posted by duende at 9:10 PM on January 7, 2006

he is fighting the good fight

With who? Flooding Metafilter with long blocks of left wing political tracts is like bringing coal to Newcastle.
posted by LarryC at 6:05 PM PST on January 7 [!]


Listen mother fucker; this is war. Every shot helps and every voice counts. So back your shit up.
posted by Mr T at 9:18 PM on January 7, 2006

backs up larry c
posted by andrew cooke at 9:22 PM on January 7, 2006

what LarryC said.

There is something fraternal, in a dismal way, in the group who love the posts but scroll past.
posted by stirfry at 9:47 PM on January 7, 2006

There is something dismal in the lowing of the foghorn warning ships away from that reef. I mean, come on, so many ships have gone aground there already so who cares?, Right?!?
posted by Mr T at 10:06 PM on January 7, 2006

y2karl is one of the good ones here. He is at his best when he uses his own words.

There is something dismal about you who praise the sounds of that foghorn while having fingers stuck in your ears.
posted by stirfry at 10:19 PM on January 7, 2006

I had been meaning to post on Hugh Thompson and his crew for months. I was also working on a post on emerging democracies for some weeks. In Smedleyman's case, I double posted on the topic because of Hugh Thompson's death. In Postroad's case, I was working on something larger. But both were fine posts and since I had pertinent links, I posted them as they were at the time as I had to do some painting today and I was in a hurry. So I posted them as they were. I would have whittled the quotes down if I got around to posting them but I had to fly this morning. I certainly meant no harm.

I just got back online a little while ago and spent the past hour trying to write an apology to Smedleyman for getting so heat up over a semantic difference and derailing the thread in his post in the process. So I just got here. And now you know why I did what I did.

As for my incessant ax grinding, you have had to put two whole posts from me in the last month. And that is two out of how many posts in that month ? Such an imposition.
posted by y2karl at 10:24 PM on January 7, 2006

Hold on, you're hating on y2karl becaue he does little editorialization, TONS of citations, and picks interesting sources?

>yew n00bz r teh funy

They sure are.
posted by skallas at 10:28 PM on January 7, 2006

y2karl, don't let them get to you. Drag any FPP posters name in here and you'll get the usual earful, usually from people who almost never contribute to the FPP. Been there, done that. Keep up the good work.

Firas on the other hand has one FPP: A single link to a slate.com article! Laughable, man. OMG Hitchens has an opinion on something contrversial. Stop the metafiltering presses!
posted by skallas at 10:31 PM on January 7, 2006

Found missing doesnt like the format. This FPP by him is almost a classic y2karl. Tons of text and to top it off use of the small and italics at the same time.

found missing took some time out his night to say: Oh, he's a critic of the administration? What a lonely position on MeFi.

Not immune from that are you?

Not to make this personal, but the complainers seem to be either non-contributors or doing the very same thing they decry.
posted by skallas at 10:37 PM on January 7, 2006

Well then, how about some Fog...Hat!:

posted by Mr T at 10:37 PM on January 7, 2006

Look, Firas, you aren't convincing me that y2karl's posting style is objectively annoying just because you find it so; I don't buy your premise that he is either deliberately breaking posting rules or being antisocial. You just don't like his style. Endeavor to accept that I and many others don't share your opinion, and that the admins of the place find his behavior acceptable. Frankly, the fact you need to be told this should be embarrassing for you.
posted by squirrel at 11:35 PM on January 7, 2006

Paraphrased:

I'm not a y2karl detractor, but I'm annoyed by his constant rivers of spewage and I think he's the MeFi village idiot. But hey, no offense, dude. I'm sympathetic to his cause and point of view.

"Student," indeed. Come back when you're ready to behave like an adult.
posted by cribcage at 11:36 PM on January 7, 2006

He's learned that none of you fucking people read the links he posts, hence the need to paste into a thread in order to make a point or disprove some dumbfuck assertion someone made upthread.
posted by Space Coyote at 11:43 PM on January 7, 2006

Look, Firas, you aren't convincing me that y2karl's posting style is objectively annoying just because you find it so; I don't buy your premise that he is either deliberately breaking posting rules or being antisocial. You just don't like his style.

He's not alone. Yeah, too fucking bad we're not in lockstep with the lagenda of the eft-wing thought police on MetaFilter (let's see, matteo, y2karl, fold_and_mutilate, skallas, to name but a few). Yes, fuck the administration, fuck bush, fuck right wing fundamentalists. Bush should be impeached for violating the Constitution. Reagan should have been impeached. I agree. You are preaching to the choir man, and you're beating me over the head with it. I get it. I read Common Dreams, alright? Let it alone. There is no need to bludgeon us with a preponderance of info-diarrhea. You are turning off your own base.

You are hurting America.

Stop it.

Hold on, you're hating on y2karl becaue he does little editorialization, TONS of citations, and picks interesting sources?

No, it's a matter of style, and repetition. Did you purposefully not read any of the comments preceding the original post? Dios and ParisParamus are tiring for the same reasons, they are a broken record in any given thread regarding politics. In order for there to be fresh political discourse on MetaFilter, new people, not the usual suspects, need to broach these subjects in hopefully unique and innovative ways.
posted by tweak at 12:40 AM on January 8, 2006 [1 favorite]

that should have read agenda of the left-wing
posted by tweak at 12:43 AM on January 8, 2006

>>Dios and ParisParamus are tiring for the same reasons

No. Dios and Paris are tiring becaue they derail every thread. This is an attack on style of karl's FPPs which looks more like an attack of the content, which you plainly lay out in your comment. Are you purposely making a bad analogy? Looks like it to me.
posted by skallas at 12:46 AM on January 8, 2006

I also love about his this stopped being about his "style" and is now about his politics. Sounds like someone doesn't like his politics, knows they cant do anything about it, so they complain about lengthy posts and formatting. Its pretty fucking obvious, not to mention that smartass link to askmeta.
posted by skallas at 12:49 AM on January 8, 2006

people are explicitly saying they support his politics, but find the whole thing tedious preaching to the choir.

how the fuck do you get from that to "not liking his politics"? do always you have to make up little stories to justify people not agreeing with you? "you don't agree with me, so you must be one of them". christ. talk about small minded.
posted by andrew cooke at 12:55 AM on January 8, 2006

y2karl is one of the worst posters on this site. Not only do his posts relentlessly, continuously, obnoxiously promote his personal point of view, they are thoroughly unattractive.
posted by kjh at 1:02 AM on January 8, 2006

>>people are explicitly saying they support his politics

tweak writes: Yeah, too fucking bad we're not in lockstep with the lagenda of the eft-wing thought police on MetaFilter

andrew cook writes: people are explicitly saying they support his politics

Do the math.
posted by skallas at 1:46 AM on January 8, 2006

I like that different posters have different styles... nothing would be more depressing to me than to see a front page of gorgeous conformity.

(although, Y2karl, like stav, I'm happy about your decision to lose the <small text>, because my eyes aren't what they used to be. In fact, they never were what they used to be.)
posted by taz at 1:48 AM on January 8, 2006

At least your posts to the front page are attractive kjh.

But seriously, I thought y2karl had stopped using the small tag so that particular beef goes by the wayside. I guess I side more with the point of view expressed by jonmc, and since y2karl has already explained what happened I'm less inclined to put the steel cap boots on.

There are quite a few more aggravating memes and behaviours that are continuously propagated around here far beyond the drop (uniquely snowflake) in the ocean that is y2karl.
posted by peacay at 1:52 AM on January 8, 2006

y2karl puts more thought into his posts than 90% or more of the posters here. The posts are both thoughtful and crafted. As for style....gee is it fashion week(he dropped the minute months ago! Those whose attention span rivals that of a gnat will not apppreciate y2karls posts because they require thought and concentration to understand. Don't like it...move on.
Idiot call out.
posted by adamvasco at 2:22 AM on January 8, 2006

I read and appreciate what y2karl has to offer us. I also don't say thank you often enough. Thank you y2karl, for your thoughtfully crafted content-rich posts.
posted by reflecked at 2:32 AM on January 8, 2006

Telling the truth is a style now ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 2:37 AM on January 8, 2006

skallas: relax? y2karl is a big boy, I'm sure he doesn't need others to pre-emptively jump down my throat for him.

cribcage: I messed up the syntax there; I wasn't calling y2karl a villiage idiot. Please check out the sentence again.

y2karl: I understand that you mean no harm, as I said in the start of the thread. None of this discussion gets around the fact that you're flooding the threads. If you're not amenable to change, I can see why large blocks of people just scroll past. But it's something to consider.
posted by Firas at 3:04 AM on January 8, 2006

And, if your choices of things to link to are indeed as carefully picked as you claim, that does make it less of an issue. But are you helping or hindering the cause of getting people to read them?
posted by Firas at 3:24 AM on January 8, 2006

I just think that someone needs to explain to y2karl the whole wacky hyperlink thing. When he discovers that astounding technology, I'm sure everything will be right as rain. Has someone emailed him?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:30 AM on January 8, 2006

I think we are really managing to capture the high school ethos here where cool is determined by people who never dare to do anything themselves.

People will misjudge, make mistakes, fail to please everybody, etc...with their FPPs (I did yesterday - doh!) but I have way more respect for those who at least attempt to contribute than for the cool snickering meta-moral-majority do-nothings who spend all their time nattering about how others should go about it.

I would love it if y2karl had a blog listed in his profile where he expanded and editorialized on the content he posts here. It would be fascinating to read what would come out of a head steeped in all that material but until that happens I am glad to see the links here.
posted by srboisvert at 3:55 AM on January 8, 2006

To be absolutely clear: I don't want the links to stop when/if the y2karl blog with editorializing, context and summaries happens. I want both the FPPs and a blog.
posted by srboisvert at 4:06 AM on January 8, 2006

yew n00bz r teh funy!!1!1!
posted by quonsar at 4:36 AM on January 8, 2006

Lead by example, then, Firas.
posted by boo_radley at 5:15 AM on January 8, 2006

>>but I have way more respect for those who at least attempt to contribute than for the cool snickering meta-moral-majority do-nothings who spend all their time nattering about how others should go about it.

So very well put. I don't know where this mentality comes from, maybe from a society of people magazine and access hollywoods. A gossip without consequences multi-faced mentality that permeates US culture. Not sure, but its hypocritical and self-defeating.

I think it takes a tad of bravery to post to the front page of mefi, because ofall the Firas-like characters out there who just bitch and moan and their endless thoughtless supporters, who when examined have contributed little to the site other than their complaints.

The FP posters do this shit for free. I've posted to the FP over 300 times and its always a bit stressful because the jackass contigent like Firas is always here either in a Dios or Paris derail or openly bitching about the post "style" or "lack of more links" in the thread itself. Then these non-contributors, professional complainers, email you. Its gets out of hand and picking on the excellent and well researched posts of y2karl is proof that these "cool kids" need to settle down.

This "I'm complaining like I'm at Denny's" mentality only puts an unessecary chill on the FP. I wonder how many potential great posters we have here but because of Firas and his little gang they will never do a FPP. Instead they have fun at places like metachat, monkeyfilter, or just start their own blogs - which is hardly a solution as a good link or a good idea should not be stuck in a blog that gets 20 views a month.

There are real criticisms to be made here like obit posts, newsfilter stuff, etc. But this complaint is ridiculous and embarrasing.

The five dollars you give Matt doesn't suddenly make you mefi overlord. We've had types like you before. Umm Bluetrain. People who expressly come here to "teach us a lesson" or to pick and harrass on prolific posters because they disagree. Its pathetic.
posted by skallas at 5:50 AM on January 8, 2006

skallas said, Not to make this personal, but the complainers seem to be either non-contributors or doing the very same thing they decry.

This is an excellent point. I'm going to start skipping my own posts too. Now, back to my People magazine...
posted by found missing at 6:03 AM on January 8, 2006

Well, since no one else is doing it, it's obviously not.

Thanks for asking.
posted by delmoi at 6:12 AM on January 8, 2006

skallas: relax? y2karl is a big boy, I'm sure he doesn't need others to pre-emptively jump down my throat for him.

Bullshit, Firas. Nobody looks graceful having to defend themselves; if a poster deserves defense, it is to be hoped someone with decent reserves of indignation and style will come along to do the job, and skallas is doing it very well. Allow me to express my entire agreement with everything skallas has said, and my deep gratitude to y2karl for one of the most impressive records of posting and commenting of any member of this community. I can understand the people who hate his politics but can't find anything to fault with his excellent links (no Capitol Blue from y2karl, folks) and therefore pick on his style; I can't understand the yahoos who claim to share his politics but get on his case anyway. People have diverse styles, and that's a good thing; if MeFi were nothing but a series of interchangeable "look another shiny object" posts, I'd long since have stopped coming here, as I've stopped going to other places (like BoingBoing). It's the passion, careful research, and stubborn individuality shown by y2karl and too few others that keep me coming back. See up there where he talked about having worked on a post "for some weeks"? Do you understand the difference between that and rushing to get an illiterate, badly thought out newsfilter post on the front page before the next yahoo does it?

Jesus, it must get depressing having to put up with this shit year in and year out. Thanks for hanging in there, y2karl, and keep up the good work.
posted by languagehat at 6:23 AM on January 8, 2006

jonmc: I'm not criticizing his haircut, you know. Is it really ok to squish another person's thread—not just derail, not just flood, but render it useless—because it's one's style?

First of all threads aren't "owed" by the poster. I mean the FPP text is sort of their responsibility, but the ensuing discussion really isn't related to them personally. That's just my feeling, though.

Secondly, some people do seem to have a problem with all the small text, and I usually don't read it. But it doesn't bother me. It seems to only bother a small minority of posters for whatever reason.

And yeah, it's been discussed to death.

But IMO the average y2karl quote stream post is better, over all, then the vast majority of posts here, which can be quite vapid sometimes. Drive by opinionating and arguments from assertion, and so on.

And of course, it's been discussed before, so why even bring it up, other then sour grapes?
posted by delmoi at 6:23 AM on January 8, 2006

You could also try increasing your standard font size. I use 12 point, which I think was the default when I signed up. Makes at least one sub or small level pretty readable.
posted by delmoi at 6:25 AM on January 8, 2006

skallas - ever thought the reason some of us don't go the the blue any more is because of y2karl, you, and "your little gang" (to coin a phrase)?

have you ever thought how 50% of americans never post here because of the incessant political hammering of one view? how many cool and diverse posts that loses us? of the irony in how those who most vocally support diversity drive it to a monoculture?

on a larger scale, have you not wondered whether amberglow and matteo, in forcing this place to a more and more extreme characterisation of the right, actually discouraged people from voting for kerry?

do you seriously think that politics is about making the other team look as stupid as possible? about excluding everyone who disagrees with you?

have you ever changed someone's mind? or is that not why you argue? do you just get your rocks off by putting others down?

i realise it might sound fantastic, but some of us don't hate people we disagree with. some of us feel that if we provided a more tolerant and welcoming avironment we could actually make a real change. and that making a real change is more important than preaching to the converted.
posted by andrew cooke at 6:25 AM on January 8, 2006 [1 favorite]

on a larger scale, have you not wondered whether amberglow and matteo, in forcing this place to a more and more extreme characterisation of the right, actually discouraged people from voting for kerry?

Well, those people must have been pretty big tools, then.
posted by delmoi at 6:30 AM on January 8, 2006

Andrew: Look at Fark.com. The political debates are far more vitriolic then they are here, by an order of magnitude at least, and yet there are still tons of conservatives around. Some times it seems like the outnumber liberals, other times it seems like liberals out number conservatives, depending on the thread.

People argue about this stuff because this stuff matters. There have always been political discussion on metafilter, and there has always been vitriol, and, there has always been a liberal majority. Far from being ridiculed conservatives are coddled and cultivated for the express purpose of 'fostering diversity'. We often pat ourselves on the back in MeTa for having some good conservatives around, or whatever.

Metafilter has always attracted people with a liberal mindset from the outset, not because of some sort of political monoculture, and that's why there are more here.

And unless you're some kind of moral relativist, the fact is that the Bush Administration is just so damn wrong all the time. I didn't even think of myself as a Liberal until he got elected and pissed me off so much, even before 9/11.

Finally, someone who would change their vote because of a few shrill people on a website obviously never listened to Rush Limbaugh, or read free republic. The idea that we should have to curtail our discussion in order to not offend people who lap up Ann Coulter on silver dinnerware for brunch is just stupid.

We should be able to discuss things freely, and sometimes get emotional and passionate about it. If someone has too fragile a constitution to deal with that, then they can, I donno, avoid political threads maybe?
posted by delmoi at 6:41 AM on January 8, 2006

I am pretty sure the internet was invented by Karl Rove as trick to get people on the left to waste their time in enormous virtual circle jerks while the right takes over the country.

"Look son, I made huge post about Guantanamo on MetaFilter! And someone linked it on DailyKos! I got a blogroll going!"

"Dad, the new school board is making my teacher tell us that Jesus rode a dinosaur and gays are the devil."

"Be quiet son, Daddy's working on something important."
posted by LarryC at 6:44 AM on January 8, 2006

skallas, I try to be restrained and not let my urge to respond to random things overshadow the point I'm trying to make, but this is getting silly.

I'm not sure what 'endless complaints' you're on about. I've never told anyone before that their FPP sucks—I have better things to do. (Well, I did once, but that thread was destined for deletion.) Never have I e-mailed anyone about their contributions here.

I hardly act like 'mefi overlord', nor am I here to teach anyone a lesson, nor have I made it my job to 'pick and harass prolific posters'… what the hell are you on about?

I'm sure your guttural emotional response is born of legitimate dismay at some contingent, but I'm not its agent.

I noticed that y2karl had a habit of posting within threads in the manner I referenced, I saw that others agree within the thread that it seems like wankery and something one should reserve for their own blog, et voila, I'm here to suggest that it's not the best of ways to get his point acoss, especially, as pointed out above, y2karl has so much to contribute when he's less bizarre.

I do realize that this thread is somewhat of a mistake, because apparently anyone who calls anyone else out has to have extreme hatred for the person they're calling out and be representative of everyone who's ever been in disagreement with the person targeted and be a sort of metaphor for all the ills in the void perceived by people who support the targeted. My apologies.
posted by Firas at 6:50 AM on January 8, 2006

People get away with a lot worse here.
posted by wakko at 6:53 AM on January 8, 2006

languagehat gets it right again.
posted by adamvasco at 7:03 AM on January 8, 2006

it's a good thing this has been brought up. we haven't talked about y2karl's posts in at least a month.
posted by shmegegge at 7:10 AM on January 8, 2006

I saw that others agree within the thread that it seems like wankery

Then what does that make you , oh poster of the relative merits of renaissance typefaces ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 7:14 AM on January 8, 2006

as the secret leader of the meta-moral-majority do-nothings, I'd like to apologize for the contingent of our organization that continues to criticize others without sticking their own necks out. they suck, and we're doing all we can to deal with them burn them at the stake.

I read (almost) everything you cite y2karl. it's such a delightful surprise when you point to a published article that mirrors the sentiments my friends and I come to agree on when we speak on politics. I never get to see that stuff represented in my mainstream news consumption pattern. it's good to know it's out there. boy, and just imagine the cave man I'd be if it weren't for your non-newsy posts. they're something special. thank you y2karl.

as for adding links to other people's posts, I think it's just a form of discussion. if one finds an excellent point of view relevent to the link, already typed out, and eminently linkable, why not add it to the discussion? in the case of PostRoad's recent one-linker that y2karl added so much to, I see his contribution as a prompt to discussion--which is the point behind this whole link collection as community blog, no?

as for the left vs. right angle of this whole mess, I would like to honestly request some examples of conservatives pointing to (and making) as clear and compelling arguments as y2karl has in his posts. (Heywood Mogroot duly noted as compelling though often cryptic.)
posted by carsonb at 7:18 AM on January 8, 2006

I would love it if y2karl had a blog listed in his profile where he expanded and editorialized on the content he posts here. It would be fascinating to read what would come out of a head steeped in all that material but until that happens I am glad to see the links here.
posted by srboisvert at 3:55 AM PST on January 8 [!]

That would be called out however, no doubt, as a sort of self-link.

I haven't the slightest idea what y2karl's politics are. Posts about hideous behaviour of the government have nothing to do with whether you're considered to be on the left or right side of the political spectrum.
posted by juiceCake at 7:54 AM on January 8, 2006

That would be called out however, no doubt, as a sort of self-link.

In his Profile. That is no self link. One of the first things I do when I see a new name posting something Interesting is check out their profile and look for a website. I check y2karl's every once in a while hoping a link will appear..
posted by srboisvert at 8:16 AM on January 8, 2006

I do realize that this thread is somewhat of a mistake, because apparently anyone who calls anyone else out has to have extreme hatred for the person they're calling out and be representative of everyone who's ever been in disagreement with the person targeted and be a sort of metaphor for all the ills in the void perceived by people who support the targeted. My apologies.

Is that what you believe? That you have been forced into the above mold by default for having called someone out, that you've been unrightly painted as at all hostile when in fact you have expressed nothing but love and respect for your fellow man?

Here's what your post and first comment included:

- assertion of compulsive behavior
- general tarring of substantial, cited comments as "huge link and run"
- snarky reference to groupthink
- reference to bannination (with the requisite 'not that I want that to happen' followup)
- assertion of general annoyance
- assertion of general uselessness
- implication that his behavior is tolerated only because of seniority
- comparison to shouting drunkard

?
posted by cortex at 8:49 AM on January 8, 2006

With who? Flooding Metafilter with long blocks of left wing political tracts is like bringing coal to Newcastle.
posted by LarryC at 6:05 PM PST on January 7 [!]

LarryC, you should try reading some of his links. If you did, you'd quickly realize how wrong you are. y2karl's posts and comments, unlike the overwhelming majority of poster's both right and left, are fantastically informative, filled with plenty of facts and insight. Such comments are the exception, not the rule, and very few people can say the same. Comparing him to one of the other flagrant Bush-bashers is a huge disservice to y2karl. He is undeniably one of Mefi's rare and very special gems. As far as I'm concerned, his contributions actually justify continued political debate on Mefi in spite of all the dios and PP clusterfuck threads that continue to regularly happen.

As for the complaints about his "style," I'll have to call bullshit. His style his necessary to get across his point. If he simply posted summaries of the links this would do nothing to get his point across. y2karl's contribution includes not just finding these links, but also picking out the key parts that support his argument.

y2karl doesn't repeat himself either, so the original callout is bullshit. If he were to post the same thing over and over then yes, his "link and run" style and "axe grinding" would be annoying. But as each link generally highlights a new and important aspect of his general argument, y2karl's only crime is having the time, dedication, and intelligence to actually put forth researched and effective arguments.

I suspect this is the real reason people feel overwhelmed by y2karl's arguments. Having to deal with such arguments can be, like much of any critical thinking, difficult and tiring. But if making such effective posts is unallowed on Mefi then there's not much more to look forward to. You can only deal with so many stupid jokes, trolls, half-assed opinions, and outright propaganda before you wander off in search of something more substantial.
posted by nixerman at 8:56 AM on January 8, 2006

yeah, that's what I meant to say!
posted by carsonb at 9:00 AM on January 8, 2006

Yeah, carsonb, I meant to say that too.
posted by Chuckles at 9:12 AM on January 8, 2006

Thumbs up for y2karl and the well-researched and thoughtful links he brings to us on whatever topic he is posting on. Y2karl was among a handful of posters who motivated me to stop lurking and sign up for Metafilter. He continues to be one of my favorite contributors.

It's obvious that with 26,424 members, not everyone is going to be in agreement about what is good and what isn't - what often depresses me most about metafilter is that the haters of one thing or another often seem more vocal than the lovers. I call for more and louder lovers!
posted by madamjujujive at 9:15 AM on January 8, 2006

The JuJu has spoken.
posted by sgt.serenity at 9:20 AM on January 8, 2006

I'd rather have a five-paragraph blockbuster than a one-sentence oversimplification.
posted by darukaru at 9:24 AM on January 8, 2006

As for the complaints about his "style,"

I wasn't complaining about his style at all, even though it's not neccessarily my preference. I was just saying "let karl be karl," essentially.
posted by jonmc at 9:35 AM on January 8, 2006

I was, but only because I want y2Karl to know that some of the choir isn't hearing the preaching because of the way it is being preached. If that doesn't concern him, and since lots of choir members seem to love the preaching (or at least the idea of the preaching, since some of them claim to skip it, just as I do), then--by all means--carry on!
posted by found missing at 9:49 AM on January 8, 2006

Not that anyone should or would give a shit, but I tend to skip great blocks of text too, regardless of who posts them (and regardless of whether they're formatted with <SMALL> or <BLOCKQUOTE> or whatever). Plenty of intelligent and interesting people here can and do find a happy medium between "five-paragraph blockbusters" and "one-sentence oversimplifications."
posted by Gator at 10:04 AM on January 8, 2006

Well said, languagehat and nixerman.
posted by squirrel at 10:29 AM on January 8, 2006

actually discouraged people from voting for kerry?

actually, we were on Karl Rove's payroll all the fucking time (I mean, y2karl: is that clear enough?). see, Karl told us that there are some people dumb enough to decide who to vote for on the basis of their dislike of strangers who post stuff on the Internet. I could not believe him, until now.


fucking eft wingers.
posted by matteo at 10:35 AM on January 8, 2006

oh, and I loudly love madamjujujive. loudly
posted by matteo at 10:38 AM on January 8, 2006

fucking eft wingers.

as opposed to fucking aft wingers?

sorry.
posted by jonmc at 10:48 AM on January 8, 2006

more and louder lovers!

*bangs on ceiling with broomstick*
posted by quonsar at 11:14 AM on January 8, 2006

what you want to join the party, q, you randy old coot? ;>
posted by jonmc at 11:23 AM on January 8, 2006

"fucking eft wingers"

Newt's back?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:00 PM on January 8, 2006

I hate y2karl's posts. They take too long to read, they lack concision and they're too heavily sourced. They're also a distraction, on the off chance I read something posted by him whilst I'm at work.... well, the day is spent reading stuff and my experiments fail because I missed a timepoint.

And! His posts are really really depressing. Depression is so negative and disheartening, and in some countries it drives people to medication. I believe y2karl is a shill for the neuro-pharmaceutical industry.
posted by gsb at 12:10 PM on January 8, 2006

y2pfizer?
posted by matteo at 12:41 PM on January 8, 2006

actually, we were on Karl Rove's payroll all the fucking time

i seriously considered this, for a (brief) moment at the time, but i don't this place is anything like important enough.

none the less, people like you have played right into their hands. instead of trying to take the middle ground, you've made things more divisive.

in a democracy you need to win a majority, not mock, harass and demonize people you don't agree with.

don't you feel any guilt at all for helping bush to power for a second term?
posted by andrew cooke at 12:58 PM on January 8, 2006

I think part of the problem here, with discussions like this is, that there a visible (to me, anyway,) few of y2karl defenders (frex, matteo, sgt.serenity, and skallas, to an extent) seem to be defending him with an "ends justify the means" argument. There are plenty of like jonmc, nixerman, stavros or carsonb that either say that, while annoying, it's not a big deal, or that support the style itself.

The thing with the "end justifies the means" thing is that it dosen't address any of the complainers issues, and in says, in essence, "Yeah, it's a problem, but because of a political slant, it's unimpeachable." I think that just reinforces the complainers belief that it is a problem, but also puts them on the defensive and just makes the thread about politics when it shouldn't be.
posted by Snyder at 1:08 PM on January 8, 2006

I'm not sure what sentiment you're attributing to me/us, Snyder. would you clarify/elaborate, please?
posted by carsonb at 1:21 PM on January 8, 2006

Well, for you specifically, that you find something valuable in the hows and whys of a y2karl post without going deeply into politics or ends justify the means rationales.
posted by Snyder at 1:30 PM on January 8, 2006

Basically, the group I lumped you int with were people (not all the people, of course,) that were making substantive arguments in favor of y2karls posting style.
posted by Snyder at 1:32 PM on January 8, 2006

And when I mean, "not all the people," I mean my list was not exhaustive.
posted by Snyder at 1:35 PM on January 8, 2006

but because of a political slant

it's totally funny (well, not as funny as andrewcooke's comments, but still) that people here are so clueless about actual politics (as in, non-US politics) that they think y2karl is some sort of raving extreme left winger. he's a guy who thinks that US soldiers slaughtering civilians and raping their corpses in My Lai was a bad thing, and that torture is a bad thing, and that the war in Iraq is going very very badly.
i.e., he holds opinions that outside of the US are boringly, desperately mainstream.

y2karl was in favor of the war in Afghanistan, for fuck's sake.

if any of you "karl's a leftwinger" guys ever saw an actual leftwinger you'd shit your fucking pants.
only in 2005 America being against torture is a "liberal" thing -- in the rest of the world, is simply a point on which all decent people agree, regardless of party affiliation. y2karl's simply a decent man with very mainstream opinions-- unless of course you live in a country where, ahem, torture's OK and abortion is one SCOTUS vote away from becoming illegal and Michelle Malkin is a best-selling author and commentator.


i seriously considered this

this is seriously awesome
posted by matteo at 1:58 PM on January 8, 2006

aha. I'm not in favor of y2karl's posting style (or anyone's for that matter) in particular. what I don't like are people who take the cheap shot at someone's style in favor of arguing the points being made.

for example, you could dismiss all of my posts because of my tendency to eschew certain capitalizations. that's a risk I take posting in the style I do; I hope that the substance of my arguments trumps my keyboarding style. for another example, I see jumping on y2karl for his style akin to dismissing someone's points for their plaid pants. potentially offensive outerwear, yes, but irrelevant to what's coming out of their mouth/fingers.

if you can't hack someone's style, don't get down on them for it. if indeed you agree with their sentiment but object to the style, help them put on some snazzy pants, don't yank 'em down around their ankles. if you don't agree with them, address the relevant points or move on. don't make fun of their plaid pants.

y2karl is one of the 'gems' of Metafilter. his posts are erudite and thoughtful, if stylistically wanting (according to some). some might argue that the degree of erudition each of his posts attains demands the style in which it's presented to make sense. some might disagree. thus discussions like these.

he's been chastised in the past on precisely this topic, and has adapted accordingly. all this further harping has done nothing to encourage him to continue being thoughtful and erudite. maybe he'll stop that someday, too, if kept on about it enough.
posted by carsonb at 2:00 PM on January 8, 2006

I hope y2karl never gets his own blog, because then he won't be here. I think he is the absolute best thing about the site, period, even though as a rule I prefer the fun and funky stuff on the internet posts over the political posts.

We are heavy on the "quirky an interesting web" posts so sometimes the good posters of this stuff don't seem to stand out as much (although their posts do, I just don't know the posters as much). Anastasiav comes to mind as among the best, but there are others. Clone her twenty times over please.

The most interesting member overall was undoubtedly Miguel. Too bad he left. I miss his wit and incredible eloquence. I don't think anyone here even comes close on eloquence, and he isn't even a native English speaker. Can you imagine what he reads like in Portuguese?

Of course then there is q, who has made me laugh, and think, as much if not more so than anyone here.

We are blessed with some incredibly creative, intelligent, and articulate members. Hearing someone tear into y2karl always pains me. I can understand the difference of opinion, but even if you disagree with his style or politics how could you not see how he rises so far above the regular political posts? His insight and effort in finding the thoughtful analysis of our society and politics really differentiates him from the norm. When he goes off political message and posts the "plain old" interesting internet stuff it always amazes me as he puts in the same incredible level of effort and detail. They are among the best of the genre. Bottom line, no one here who has criticized y2karl's posting has come even close to his level of excellence. Enough of the armchair quarterbacks who contribute no posts themselves yet complain about how terrible the posts are from those who do. Lead by example. Show us. Those who can't do - complain. Stop complaining and show us, please.

When I read y2karl, I find myself back in a politics precept. He tosses out the thought provoking, often gut wrenching, material with detail, and then we get to dissect and examine it. The only thing missing is the uber erudite professor squashing the distractions and focusing the discussion on the important stuff. I don't know who y2karl is, but he reminds me of so many Ivy League professors I know. We get that, and you complain? Thank you lucky stars, and really, if you do not like it, please ignore it so that the rest of us can enjoy it.
posted by caddis at 4:21 PM on January 8, 2006

The point is , this is a community , karls had it pretty rough lately as any cursory reading of metatalk would tell you , so why don't you just leave him the fuck alone for now and come back with your petty bullshit in a few months ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 4:24 PM on January 8, 2006

"your" sorry
posted by caddis at 4:24 PM on January 8, 2006

don't you feel any guilt at all for helping bush to power for a second term?

Kerry lost by 100k votes in Ohio. Do you really think that metafilter had even 10k readers in Ohio?

Thanks for ignoring my post, btw.

My feeling is that people who can't even think about the consequences of their votes, or take responsibility for them, shouldn't even be allowed to vote. They want to cast their ballot and never think about the consequences? Well fuck them, fuck them up the ass.
posted by delmoi at 4:59 PM on January 8, 2006

I mean people literally literally live or die based on these decisions.

Let me give you an example. Khaled el-Masri, a German citizen was kidnapped by American government and tortured for five months. It was a case of mistaken identity. Andrew, Do you believe that that is an acceptable price to pay for pissing of some liberals on metafilter? Do you believe that people who would answer yes to the first question are worthy of sympathy?

This is a serious question.
posted by delmoi at 5:12 PM on January 8, 2006

Firas, no offense, but fuck you. Seriously. The only way a callout can accomplish anything is to either convince the poster that they are wrong, and motivate them to change, or convince matt to ban or timeout someone. People have complained about y2karl in the past, and matt hasn't banned him, and he hasn't changed.

The only thing you could do would be to personally convince him to change, do you think that this post accomplished that at all?

People complained about me derailing threads in the past, and I try to avoid that now. Maybe y2karl would have changed his posting style if you'd been polite, but probably not.

Anyway, fuck off. All this thread has done is to inflame debate and make people pissed off who otherwise wouldn't be. That's the same kind of crap Highsignal pulled, by the way. And highsignal is gone, btw.

I'm drunk btw. Since I didn't get drunk last night I figured, what the hay.
posted by delmoi at 5:17 PM on January 8, 2006

That's cool—I'm attempting (as yet unsuccessfully) to get drunk and mulling louder lovers, myself.
posted by Firas at 5:30 PM on January 8, 2006

"I'd rather have a five-paragraph blockbuster than a one-sentence oversimplification."

Speaking from experience, you're very much in a small minority.

"...are so clueless about actual politics (as in, non-US politics) that they think..."

Matteo, if I have to read another of your simpleminded condescending bullshit assertions of how it's impossible for any American to even have a clue of what real leftism really is I'm going to organize a cadre to track you down and rehabilitate your patronizing fuckwit keyboardwarrior ass.

If there were, in fact, any MeFi self-proclaimed "leftists"—or rightists denouncing other Americans as "leftists"—who weren't aware that the US political mean is far to the right, they know it now since you've repeated in your smug, hectoring tone-of-voice about eight-million times. And, as a matter of fact and something quite relevant, you've run out of novel political commentary about three years ago and now merely repeat snippets from your phrasebook like the sophistical automaton you probably are. In other words, shut the fuck up.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:14 PM on January 8, 2006 [1 favorite]

By the way, the argument that anyone who criticizes a prolific poster is automatically not credible if he/she has posted only a few times is complete and utter bullshit.

It's not hypocrisy to ask for better posts but have only made relatively few posts. It's hypocritical to ask for better posts and have only made relatively low quality posts. You know, it's that tricky comparing the same kind of things to each other reasoning that so's hard to grasp post-elementary school.

And, as a matter of fact, most of my own posts fail to meet my standards and this has encouraged me to post less, not more, because my standards for suitable material to post has correspondingly increased as a result of self-criticism.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:25 PM on January 8, 2006

caddis : Very well said.

This noise about aesthetic violence to the front page seems incredibly petty to me. The "hard work" posters in this community are, to my mind, its greatest asset. y2karl's posts are not facile distractions: they took time to craft and they take time to read and digest. Sometimes I have the time, and sometimes I don't. When I do, I take my time and usually learn a great deal.

At the same time, if all the posts were like y2karl's, the front page of metafilter would be among the most intimidating (and one of the driest) places on the internet. Fortunately, we have some variety. Sometimes, you know, I want to read four 10,000 word journal articles and sometimes I want to watch freaky Taiwanese music videos. I frequently skip both kinds of posts without grinding my teeth and cursing.

As long as there's balance, I don't see the need to complain about someone who works hard to contribute to this community. Save your callout for something bad.
posted by kosem at 6:29 PM on January 8, 2006

You know, most avenues one can choose to pursue writing/editing/journalism/column-writring/whatever offer lots of points of feedback that you can use to improve along the way. MetaFilter isn't particularly a good one in that regard. Things go up without the benefit of a second pair of eyes, and all critiques wind up being after-the-fact criticisms instead of constructive help before-the-fact.

Obviously, Matt could have banned him a long time ago and hasn't. So what makes you think your MeTa thread is going to be constructive, that you've discovered some new angle of criticism no one has used previously?

I've called karl on the teensy-text thing and while he still does it, he seems to do it less than he once did. The process of making that critique was very painful and I can certainly take no credit, but I think you're actually really insulting karl to say that he'd never listen to any critique of his style or ever change one iota in response to the audience. That's not true. Nor is it true that not-being-banned is any measure of success, though Firas was the one who brought that up.

In any case, I think that throwing up one's hands and saying "that's who he is" is a cop-out. Any real writer has to consider criticism. You can learn to live with some detractors, but only after doing some real due-dilligence on yourself - and you can't just shit on readers when they complain and say that they just don't like your style and that's their problem. Well... actually on MetaFilter, you can! That flies about 2 inches in all other arenas, but here you can take it really, really far.

It's many things, but MetaFilter's a poor crucible for writers who want to improve. I've strayed far from the subject of karl, but this all seems related.
posted by scarabic at 7:35 PM on January 8, 2006

Disclaimer: I agree with y2karl. I don't mind his style. I didn't mind when he used small tags, either. I don't read what he writes anymore. I don't think that's a problem he needs to fix, or anyone needs to make him fix; it's just my choice of what I read. I am a lefty on many topics, a righty on a few. Of the topics that I see come up on Mefi, I am almost completely lefty (that is, the topics that I'm not lefty about tend to be the topics that MeFi doesn't seem to care much about, or doesn't discuss much). As such, in the context of the stuff y2karl posts, you could fairly call me a "y2karl post skipping, y2karl appreciating, y2karl agreeing lefty Mefite".

cribcage : "Paraphrased:

I'm not a y2karl detractor, but I'm annoyed by his constant rivers of spewage and I think he's the MeFi village idiot. But hey, no offense, dude. I'm sympathetic to his cause and point of view.

No, I'm pretty sure the "village idiot" comment was in reference to quonsar, not y2karl.

">>people are explicitly saying they support his politics

tweak writes: Yeah, too fucking bad we're not in lockstep with the lagenda of the eft-wing thought police on MetaFilter

andrew cook writes: people are explicitly saying they support his politics

skallas: Do the math."

Ok. If my memories of math class and grammar class are accurate, "people" is the plural of "person". At the point you posted this comment, one person may or may not have disagreed with this politics, and multiple people agreed with his politics and found his style trying, and even more people agreed with his politics and didn't find his tyle trying.

So I think the math breaks down to:
Person may be saying they don't support his politics or his style.
People are saying they support his politics but not his style.
People are saying they support his politics and his style.

nixerman : "LarryC, you should try reading some of his links. If you did, you'd quickly realize how wrong you are. y2karl's posts and comments, unlike the overwhelming majority of poster's both right and left, are fantastically informative, filled with plenty of facts and insight. Such comments are the exception, not the rule, and very few people can say the same."

Full on super agreement here. The issue isn't "We already have 50 people spouting the party line, we don't need y2karl bringing coals to Newcastle". It's "We've got y2karl, living in Newcastle, digging up coal. He has, maybe, one assistant, maybe 2. And we have 50 people outside bringing single charcoal briquettes and patting themselves on the back." Y2karl isn't the problem part of the circlejerk.

matteo : "but because of a political slant

it's totally funny (well, not as funny as andrewcooke's comments, but still) that people here are so clueless about actual politics (as in, non-US politics) that they think y2karl is some sort of raving extreme left winger."

?? Why does the phrase "political slant" = "raving extreme left winger"? It's totally funny that some people are so clueless about actual politics that they think using phrases like "political orientation" or "political slant" = implying someone is a balaclava wearing, handmade grenade making revolutionary.

After all, you could substitute "centrism" into Snyder's comment, and it would still make sense: "Yeah, it's a problem, but because of political centrism, it's unimpeachable." Methinks you're bringing a bit too much of your own political baggage into the arena, matteo.

matteo : "if any of you 'karl's a leftwinger' guys ever saw an actual leftwinger you'd shit your fucking pants."

I think karl's an American leftwinger, and a European centrist, and a North Korean right winger, and when I see Bertinotti, I see an old guy who reminds me of some actor (can't remember who), and my underwear remains clean.
posted by bugbread at 7:43 PM on January 8, 2006 [1 favorite]

it's totally funny (well, not as funny as andrewcooke's comments, but still) that people here are so clueless about actual politics (as in, non-US politics) that they think y2karl is some sort of raving extreme left winger.

maybe i'm misreading this, but i don't think y2karl is a raving extreme left winger at all. hell, i have a copy of the monthly paper from mir on my desk, which in some small way i help fund, so i have a vague idea of what raving left wingers are.

my criticism isn't that you are extreme. it's that you're the poster boys for the agressive, intolerant, one-sided political clique we have here, that alienates and attacks those who don't follow along, and which serves no useful purpose in changing the practical politics of the usa.

maybe that's not what you think politics is about. perhaps it's just a circle jerk for you, and a competition to prove how much you "care", or to see how many pointsa you can score over the other side. i dunno. but it sure as hell isn't helping change anything. any more than the glorious mir.
posted by andrew cooke at 8:11 PM on January 8, 2006

when I see Bertinotti, I see an old guy who reminds me of some actor (can't remember who), and my underwear remains clean.

I'm very happy for both you and your BVD's.
posted by jonmc at 8:54 PM on January 8, 2006

At the same time, if all the posts were like y2karl's, the front page of metafilter would be among the most intimidating (and one of the driest) places on the internet.

And if all of them were like fold_and_mutilate's it'd be the most vitriolic, if they were all like wolfdaddy's it'd be the campiest, if they were all like mine, it'd be the most...I dunno, ridiculous.

But they're not. Variety. Spice of life, people.
posted by jonmc at 8:57 PM on January 8, 2006

"Depression is so negative and disheartening, and in some countries it drives people to medication."-gsb.
Not even ten days into 2006 and someone won the understatement of the year award.
posted by wheelieman at 9:05 PM on January 8, 2006

This comes up so often because the man has a divisive posting style. At this point I have long since realized that he does not care, and while I find that mildly offensive, it is not worth complaining about. Matt is light on droping the hammer, and if he is not going to do that this is just wasted effort.

One of these days I am going to learn to use Greasemonkey and killfile a bunch of Metafilter's gems. Until then I will skip past the Karl and Paris posts when possible and enjoy Miguel's absence.
posted by thirteen at 10:42 PM on January 8, 2006

thirteen: At this point I have long since realized that he does not care,

Surely it is possible to care deeply, but still choose not to comply with your wishes.
posted by Chuckles at 5:57 AM on January 9, 2006

Surely it is possible to care deeply, but still choose not to comply with your wishes.

I meant that he does not care that his behavior has launched a thousand Metatalk threads. Maybe Paris cares too, it does not change the fact that they both cause turbulance in this forum.
posted by thirteen at 6:53 AM on January 9, 2006

my criticism isn't that you are extreme. it's that you're the poster boys for the agressive, intolerant, one-sided political clique we have here, that alienates and attacks those who don't follow along, and which serves no useful purpose in changing the practical politics of the usa.

No one begs questions like andrew cooke.

Also, I like your blog but you need to show more then just the very latest entry on there.
posted by delmoi at 6:55 AM on January 9, 2006

and which serves no useful purpose in changing the practical politics of the usa.

please tell me again

1) who said that we're supposed to do that here, of all places. "changing the practical politics of the usa"???

2) how in the world do you think I'd ever vote for the Democrats, or that I'd ever want to convince other people to vote for them.

only the politically naive decide who they're voting reading some guy's website. and this is not a PR operation, we're not Kos (who has the right to make money off of that, of course), we're not on a party's payroll. we state our opinions. want to volunteer to do MoveOn work? cool, go ahead.

and of course, you're also free to hang out at some evangelical church in the South and rationally, politely explain them Evolution and politely talk to them about the importance of equal rights regardless of sexual orientation.
change is on the way!
posted by matteo at 7:04 AM on January 9, 2006

there's no viable alternative except (2). and if you don't care about changing (1) what the hell are you doing complaining so much?

as for your final comment, that's a perfect example of the way you take republicans - 50% of the fucking country - and turn them into a caricature that you can dismiss. it's not debate it's name calling. it's tedious and pointless.

putting those two comments together, i have to ask - why do you bother? do you just like being nasty to people?
posted by andrew cooke at 2:56 PM on January 9, 2006

Hush, little one. The thread is over.
posted by squirrel at 10:08 AM on January 10, 2006

yeah. anyone seen my keys?
posted by andrew cooke at 1:27 PM on January 10, 2006