Self-linking for critique purposes?

February 20, 2006 4:42 PM

Is it acceptable to post a self link in ask if you are looking for peer response to something you have done, ie ways to improve a site, suggestion on a book/article/song/video, and if not has anyone else ever suggested that a mefi peer review might be useful. Granted we enjoy flagellating each other as is, but it would be nice if we could solicit feed back. I understand that if such an option were available directly on projects it might lead to people slandering works of those they dislike, but surely some of us would like to actively seek criticism.
posted by sourbrew to Etiquette/Policy at 4:42 PM (46 comments total)

perhaps the option to allow comments at the discretion of the poster on projects?
posted by sourbrew at 4:43 PM on February 20, 2006

Just solicit responses through the email on your profile by asking for them on projects. This has the added benefit of avoiding a public pileon.
posted by Roger Dodger at 4:46 PM on February 20, 2006

See i think that a public pile on could be useful, for instance one person might say they hate something and word it very eloquently and in a convincing manner while most other people actually enjoy that feature/stylistic choice or what have you.

Granted their is room for abuse as there is with just about anything on metafilter, but I also feel like there is a lot of room for the community to expand on the ideas of others in this "review process."
posted by sourbrew at 4:51 PM on February 20, 2006

curses, there*
posted by sourbrew at 4:52 PM on February 20, 2006

I'll assume, since you asked "Is it acceptable" by posting a MeTa thread rather than emailing Matt, that you're polling the community for opinions rather than asking for concrete policy. My answer is "No," I don't think it's acceptable.
posted by cribcage at 4:53 PM on February 20, 2006

Usually people ask general questions about how to do something and include a link to their project or topic in their profile. On rare occasions, people ask "What is wrong with my design/CSS/pitcher plant?" and include a link or an image to illustrate the problem. If the illustration is necessary to ask the question, and if the link passes the smell test otherwise (not an ad-heavy SEO type site, not a brand new poster), it's usually okay. If someone just links to their site as part of an unrelated question, I'll often remove the link and include a note in the thread for the poster to add the link to their profile.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:54 PM on February 20, 2006

cribcage,

well polling the community, but i was also wondering if anyone else would be interested in a mefi peer review. I don't really feel like ask is the right place, which is why I started the thread, but i do think that such a thing could be useful to a lot of people and was wondering if others feel that they could benefit from such a system.
posted by sourbrew at 4:57 PM on February 20, 2006

I personally would not be bothered if I saw it on AskMe and it included full disclosure.

I don't think, based on past trends, that it belongs in the blue.

I would, however, be bothered if you posted it to AskMe and got piled onto for self linking despite disclosure, etc. Sadly, I think that's what will happen. I understand the whole thing about being anti self links, but if you're soliciting feedback for a work in progress I don't see how that's always unacceptable.

If, on the other hand, you're linking to a full blown working e-commerce site where people are buying stuff - I would flip to the "buy some ads" camp.

I have a work in progress myself and am very interested in seeing how this thread pans out. I'd love to be able to post about it, since I don't know where else to post and get ideas from such an insightful community as AskMe tends to be.
posted by twiggy at 4:57 PM on February 20, 2006

Also, have some concrete things you're looking for. AskMe works best when it's problem-solving. So saying "How does my site look?" is worse than asking "I am trying to get the shopping cart links to do xyz without breaking the standards-compliant HTML."

So, to rephrase "Look at my stuff and tell me what you think." isn't a really good use of AskMe, but "Help me solve a specific problem I'm haivng with something I'm putting together" is usually okay. Once the jabber server is back up, this sort of inquiry is perfect for there.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:00 PM on February 20, 2006

I've seen questions regarding personal websites asked before in AskMeFi, and generally it is done by referrencing that their URL is in their profile. User profiles, from what I understand, are not crawled by search engines (via robots.txt), so you are not making a self-link per se. Making the question very specific would probably be better as to not be perceived as just trying to increase traffick at your site, but get advice on things that you think may be better.

And eventually someone will probably just put the URL in their comment for others to easily get to it.
posted by Mijo Bijo at 5:01 PM on February 20, 2006

yeah,

Clearly asking for generic feedback on a site is probably a bad idea, but sometimes asking for free form feed back is the best way to find out things you might have not even thought about asking.

I think that the beautiful thing about communities, and in particular communities as well read as mefi is that other people tend to see things you would not.
posted by sourbrew at 5:05 PM on February 20, 2006

(1) Identify two or three specific items on which you especially want feedback.
(2) Refer readers to your profile for a link to your project.
(3) Mention that feedback on other items would be helpful as well.
(4) Implement helpful suggestions.
(5) Post to ProMe, giving credit to those who gave helpful suggestions.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 5:11 PM on February 20, 2006

(6) ???
(7) Profit.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 5:12 PM on February 20, 2006

I would love to see a peer review thing. I think it would be incredibly valuable to have projects reviewed by the community before being sent out into the world.
posted by spaghetti at 5:13 PM on February 20, 2006

So would me posting to AskMe about a project I'm working on, something like the following, be appropriate?

Please help me determine what other features/functionality would make my project ready for prime time [more inside]

My project, located at [url here] is currently a work in progress that hasn't been "announced" to the public. The idea is to provide users with the ability to [do some cool web stuff], and I think that in and of itself, it's useful. However, I'd like to know how feasible and useful people feel this is, and what ideas people might have as far as enhancing this functionality before I go live with it.
posted by twiggy at 5:16 PM on February 20, 2006

Maybe we need a whole web development section?

developer.metafilter.com
posted by spaghetti at 5:21 PM on February 20, 2006

Two problems I would identify with that, twiggy. First, I would refrain from putting the link right in your post. Put the link in your profile, and refer people to that. I know that seems formalistic, but given that search engines are excluded from user profiles, it would at least pay lip service to the no-self-link rule. Second, I think you need to make your question more specific. "I'd like to implement [this specific type of functionality]. Do you have suggestions or resources on how to do this?" Once you get the specific question out of the way, include your more general requests in the [mi].

As an alternative, you could talk Matt into enabling comments for Projects, and you could just post it there.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 5:24 PM on February 20, 2006

spaghetti,

But i don't think everyone on mefi is necessarily interested in just web development, I for one would want to use it solicit feed back on opinion editorials or articles I was working on. I imagine that there are people here who work on video shorts, and music as well. There are probably other areas that would interest some people, although once you move into non technical works ie paintings, that would become pretty subjective.

Although i suppose you would need a "flag this as some asshat trying to get help on his college paper" button.
posted by sourbrew at 5:26 PM on February 20, 2006

An alternative formulation:

What features would you find most useful in a site that [does some cool web stuff]? I'm working on a site to provide [some web service], and I'm looking for suggestions to make the service more useful. If you were using this site, what features would you most like to have? A prototype/alpha/beta version is linked from my profile for reference.

For non-webdev items, like videos or essays, I'm not sure there is any better way than linking to the item itself, and I'm curious to see what Matt says about that.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 5:31 PM on February 20, 2006

monju_bosatsu: thanks for the alternative formulation... I'll see if we've got consensus here before posting it, but I'd love to get some real world feedback and AskMe seems like a way better place to keep things semi-private-ish while getting opinions from insightful people.
posted by twiggy at 5:34 PM on February 20, 2006

No, just don't ever do it. Put it on projects and beg for feedback like a decent person. It raises a lot of questions and increases the risk of people asking bad questions a great deal, all for very little gain. And if you have a specific question like 'how to do X in CSS' it's to your benefit to try to isolate, clarify, and abstract the problem rather than just referring users to your web page.
posted by nixerman at 5:37 PM on February 20, 2006

nixerman,

but the problem with projects is again that there is no possibility of dialog between other mefite members. Having 40 people send suggestions to you is not the same as having 40 of them dickering over what is the best way to do something.
posted by sourbrew at 5:39 PM on February 20, 2006

The other problem with projects is that it is explicitly stated in the rules that you shouldn't really be posting works in progress to projects.
posted by twiggy at 5:42 PM on February 20, 2006

Matt says comments will available on Projects.
posted by tellurian at 5:43 PM on February 20, 2006

another note about AskMe is that the turnover rate is so high it seems plausible that you might not have it viewed by someone who can help due to the deluge of should i dump him/her, where can I find subaru floor mats, and my cat has this thing on its neck and I'm too broke for a vet posts.
posted by sourbrew at 5:45 PM on February 20, 2006

sourbrew, that's true, it's not as good but that's life, I guess. It's still the case that allowing self-links in the green would do more damage than good. For general feedback, projects is the place. For help on a specific problem, it's up to the asker to abstract and focus the question far away from 'look at my site and...' General review and feedback may simply be a problem not suited for mefi. Though, come to think of it, I can't imagine why there are no comments in projects. Even if it's the case that the burgundy is supposed to feed into the blue FPPs, I think allowing some direct feedback beyond +1/0 would be a good idea.
posted by nixerman at 5:47 PM on February 20, 2006

i do think that such a thing could be useful to a lot of people and was wondering if others feel that they could benefit from such a system.

Of course. Anyone with a website could benefit from polling AskMe readers to solicit opinions, feedback, and criticism. With due respect, "Duh."

The question is, Does the potential benefit outweigh the risk? I say "No." Aside from all the other valid arguments about the self-link slippery slope: I have a website, too, and I could improve it if I got feedback from a wide swath of folks via MetaFilter. If you get to post your question, do I get to post mine? Does everyone? 'Cause that's really going to make AskMe suck.
posted by cribcage at 5:47 PM on February 20, 2006

cribcage, nixerman,

sorry should have phrased it better although i thought in my comments i had said that i don't think AskMe is the right place either, i just think that there is probably a lot of people who would love to be able to solicit criticism.

I have no particular work that I want feed back on at the moment, it was more the is there a market for mefi peer review, and would you use it scenario that i was postulating.
posted by sourbrew at 5:51 PM on February 20, 2006

This is a terrible idea. Yeah, we'd all like to use the large, various, and often insightful MeFi community as a sounding board for our little projects and ideas. Just take two minutes to imagine what the place would be like if everybody did that and you'll see why it's no good. I know you're thinking "It would be just the same, except that I'd get some valuable feedback," but it wouldn't. There's lots of fish in the sea, and they all want the fish food. See:

I have a work in progress myself and am very interested in seeing how this thread pans out.
posted by languagehat at 5:57 PM on February 20, 2006

Just take two minutes to imagine what the place would be like if everybody did that and you'll see why it's no good.

Because lots of people will ask questions about their projects? I fail to see why that's an objection to asking the questions, so long as the questioner is seeking an answer to a concrete problem with their project rather than generalized feedback.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 6:07 PM on February 20, 2006

is there a market for mefi peer review

Yep. Projects will be much more interesting and useful, I think, once comments get implemented.
posted by mediareport at 6:21 PM on February 20, 2006

(SourBrew, that list was great, but you forgot my most hated AskMe topic: "My girlfriend loves cupcakes! Rather than make her a CD of songs that actually mean something to me, I'd like to make her a mix CD of random cupcake songs I've never heard before, suggested by strangers who are only using this opportunity to show off how awesome and esoteric their musical tastes are!")
posted by Ian A.T. at 7:01 PM on February 20, 2006

OMFG. I HATE that question so bad!
posted by crabintheocean at 10:44 PM on February 20, 2006

languagehat, if this proposal was managed as a new and seperate aspect/subsite of the Mefi, I don't see why it would be a problem -- it would live or die on precisely whether the supply of good and varied insight and criticism was matched to the demand for said input.

But yes, shoehorning such requests for comment into the existing blue/green/grey setup would be bad. Not that I think sourbrew was even suggesting that.
posted by cortex at 11:02 PM on February 20, 2006

There's too much of AskMe as it is. Open questions like "please critique my website" or whatever would stink it up mightily. Plus there's places on the net that already exist for that (I know it means talking to strangers; it's pretty scary!)

I think that optional comments/peanut gallery on Projects is a splendid idea, and that AskMe should be kept for specific questions. If a self-link is the most succinct way to ask specific questions, then I just totally got distracted by that cupcake stuff. The song you are looking for is "Cook the Cupcake" by Cretin - out now on Relapse.

Yeah, comments on Projects, specific questions on AskMe, discussion of other people's internets in the Blue (does anybody still use that?)
posted by nowonmai at 11:11 PM on February 20, 2006

well, since everyone seems determined to think that i implied specifically that this should be AskMe only please let me avert your eyes up thread... i know read before posting "i never."

and then i'll repost it down here, only ill change ask to AskMe, even though i rebel against the usage of a phrase that implies singularity whilst addressing the group.

but i was also wondering if anyone else would be interested in a mefi peer review. I don't really feel like AskMe is the right place, which is why I started the thread, but i do think that such a thing could be useful to a lot of people and was wondering if others feel that they could benefit from such a system.

That said if projects is getting comments that sounds quite dandy, although that then begs the question.

"What's the policy on resubmitting projects to project if you want feed back now that it is suddenly available."

inquiring minds want to know
posted by sourbrew at 11:26 PM on February 20, 2006

thinking I should probably make it clear the above comment was 100% snark
posted by sourbrew at 11:42 PM on February 20, 2006

I'd love to see comments in Projects, but with a strong dose of AskMeFi-style moderation to keep things from going off-topic.
posted by fuzz at 4:12 AM on February 21, 2006

Not that I think sourbrew was even suggesting that.

He certainly wasn't suggesting anything else. If he had in mind a new section of MeFi (which I would neither welcome nor object to), it behooved him to make that clear. What I got from his original posting was that he wanted Matt to change the rules to allow him to ask Mefites to evaluate his project, and on the site as it currently exists I think that's a lousy idea.
posted by languagehat at 5:04 AM on February 21, 2006

Yeah, but he then acknowledged that his post was pretty unclear and clarified specifically that he didn't think an AskMe shoehorn was a good way to go. So perhaps he was literally suggesting it, but it seems clear that's not what he actually meant. So perhaps I should have spoken more clearly as well.
posted by cortex at 6:54 AM on February 21, 2006

perhaps you should try your reading comprehension hat and look at the second part of my compound sentence.

"and if not has anyone else ever suggested that a mefi peer review might be useful."

or the last sentence of the post

"I understand that if such an option were available directly on projects it might lead to people slandering works of those they dislike"

or the first comment in thread, but don't let that get in the way of you saying what you want to.
posted by sourbrew at 6:58 AM on February 21, 2006

FWIW, I'm fine with monju_bosatsu's formulation. However, be aware that if you use that formulation, many people (myself included) will answer exactly what you asked, which is what functionality would you like to see in a site that does X, without looking at your specific site. Not so much, at least in my case, that I'm deliberately trying to avoid following a self-link, but just that I don't need to see the site to answer the general question.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:10 AM on February 21, 2006

Maybe we could start another section: MeFi Workshopping.
posted by delmoi at 10:44 AM on February 21, 2006

Call it MeWork
posted by delmoi at 10:45 AM on February 21, 2006

A MeWork or something would be good. That or an adjustment to the rules of MePro.

I've put my work in progress uber-alpha version website in my profile. (Scroll down to my "bio").

I think it's too "alpha" to qualify for Projects based on the guidelines. If comments were available in projects, i'd love to post it - but only if it's deemed "working enough" to post.
posted by twiggy at 11:36 AM on February 21, 2006

Call it MeWork

or MeDo, or CritMe

I love that idea, delmoi. I don't know why comments aren't allowed on Projects.
posted by amberglow at 9:02 PM on February 21, 2006