Chatfilter or Not? March 16, 2006 7:16 AM Subscribe
I assume this question was deleted for being chatty, but what if it had been: "Can you name some scenes in film that feature popular songs where the on-screen characters actually sing along or otherwise interact with the music? I'm putting them together for a project etc etc....". Is everything on AskMe a "problem" looking for a solution?
I had the same thought.
It seemed like a legitimate enough question , and interesting.
posted by dan g. at 7:18 AM on March 16, 2006
It seemed like a legitimate enough question , and interesting.
posted by dan g. at 7:18 AM on March 16, 2006
This has been dealt with many times before here. Did you search first before posting it yet again?
Anyway, yes, the framing of a chatty question matters. Yes, having a specific problem or project that requires assistance matters. No, AskMe is not a chat site. Does that about cover it?
posted by mediareport at 7:21 AM on March 16, 2006
Anyway, yes, the framing of a chatty question matters. Yes, having a specific problem or project that requires assistance matters. No, AskMe is not a chat site. Does that about cover it?
posted by mediareport at 7:21 AM on March 16, 2006
I wrote the poster a long email explaining that without some "Why do you want to know" information these questions turn into "What's your favorite color" discussions. I said that if we could add a bit more information to it, we could put it back simply and easily. Otherwise I suggested places that the question would be better suited, if all they want to do is talk about music scenes in movies. Questions that end with some variant of "I'll start, these are my favorites...." seem to be open-ended chat invites and the "ask a question" box is pretty specific about these being not super useful.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:23 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:23 AM on March 16, 2006
It just seemed a bit early to kill the question after only two replies - the poster might have soon commented to clarify. To contrast, what if I had posted my most recent question as "What are your favorite ways of not dying? I'll start, my favorites include cryogenics, genetic modification..." - would it have then been deleted?
posted by Orange Goblin at 7:29 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by Orange Goblin at 7:29 AM on March 16, 2006
I hope so.
posted by mediareport at 7:30 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by mediareport at 7:30 AM on March 16, 2006
But why? The answers would have been pretty much the same.
posted by Orange Goblin at 7:32 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by Orange Goblin at 7:32 AM on March 16, 2006
Again, framing matters; read jessamyn's answer again. It invites chat, which adds noise. Listen, there are plenty of chatty questions that get through; the bar isn't set that high.
posted by mediareport at 7:34 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by mediareport at 7:34 AM on March 16, 2006
would it have then been deleted?
Probably. AskMe works best when people who have some sort of specific knowledge of the topic being discussed offer their advice, information or knowledge. AskMe works worst when there is a question where everyone's answers are equally valid, everyone on MetaFilter can chime in, and there's no possible way any of the answers can be evaluated as any better than any other.
Your question had at least a semblance of a problem to be solved: "I'm looking for the best way to extend my life"
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:39 AM on March 16, 2006
Probably. AskMe works best when people who have some sort of specific knowledge of the topic being discussed offer their advice, information or knowledge. AskMe works worst when there is a question where everyone's answers are equally valid, everyone on MetaFilter can chime in, and there's no possible way any of the answers can be evaluated as any better than any other.
Your question had at least a semblance of a problem to be solved: "I'm looking for the best way to extend my life"
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:39 AM on March 16, 2006
Ok, I guess that clarifies things, but it still seems odd to me. Obviously I can see why a question such as "what are your favorite films?" isn't going to go anywhere, but this one seemed quite specific with the potential to become interesting. Oh well...
posted by Orange Goblin at 7:42 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by Orange Goblin at 7:42 AM on March 16, 2006
Again, framing matters; read jessamyn's answer again.
I just don't buy it. The question wasn't "framed" well. Pardon the shit out of the questioner's uneducated, bumfuck, yokel education. I'll grant you it's not expressed as a question in need of an AskMe answer, but if it had been phrased as "I need to find scenes like this for my school project", there wouldn't have been a problem.
Is there an abstraction of AskMe in Plato's Cave that I'm not privvy to? It's a website, not your legacy.
posted by yerfatma at 7:48 AM on March 16, 2006
I just don't buy it. The question wasn't "framed" well. Pardon the shit out of the questioner's uneducated, bumfuck, yokel education. I'll grant you it's not expressed as a question in need of an AskMe answer, but if it had been phrased as "I need to find scenes like this for my school project", there wouldn't have been a problem.
Is there an abstraction of AskMe in Plato's Cave that I'm not privvy to? It's a website, not your legacy.
posted by yerfatma at 7:48 AM on March 16, 2006
"My brother wants to join the National Guard. WTF?" is a question that increases the beauty of AskMe then?
posted by yerfatma at 7:48 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by yerfatma at 7:48 AM on March 16, 2006
Pardon the shit out of the questioner's uneducated, bumfuck, yokel education.
Oh, please.
posted by mediareport at 7:50 AM on March 16, 2006
Oh, please.
posted by mediareport at 7:50 AM on March 16, 2006
Is there an abstraction of AskMe in Plato's Cave that I'm not privvy to?
I'll grant you it's not expressed as a question in need of an AskMe answer...
I'd say you're privy as all get out.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:53 AM on March 16, 2006
I'll grant you it's not expressed as a question in need of an AskMe answer...
I'd say you're privy as all get out.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:53 AM on March 16, 2006
Chatfilter: Let's say you had a bear, and an average human male, do you think you could learn how to kill the bear unarmed? And if so, why do you feel that way?
posted by blue_beetle at 8:07 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by blue_beetle at 8:07 AM on March 16, 2006
But questions about zombies get placed on the sidebar. Noted. Movies bad, zombies good.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:10 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:10 AM on March 16, 2006
I dunno. "How would the biology of muscles apply to zombies?" is funny, sure, but has a non-chat question at its core that "What are your favorite movie singalong scenes?" does not.
posted by mediareport at 8:34 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by mediareport at 8:34 AM on March 16, 2006
It's a moving target folks. We roll with the guidelines we have, not the guidelines we wish we had.
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:37 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:37 AM on March 16, 2006
The guidelines are a product of the deletions, the deletions are not a product of the guidelines. Remember that.
posted by blue_beetle at 8:42 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by blue_beetle at 8:42 AM on March 16, 2006
AskMe works best when people who have some sort of specific knowledge of the topic being discussed offer their advice, information or knowledge. AskMe works worst when there is a question where everyone's answers are equally valid, everyone on MetaFilter can chime in, and there's no possible way any of the answers can be evaluated as any better than any other.
"How would the biology of muscles apply to zombies?"
Anyone have specific knowledge about zombies? No, because they don't exist. My flavour of zombie could be completely different to yours, so our answers are equally valid, and there's...no possible way...any of the answers....can...um...sidebar!
posted by Orange Goblin at 8:50 AM on March 16, 2006
"How would the biology of muscles apply to zombies?"
Anyone have specific knowledge about zombies? No, because they don't exist. My flavour of zombie could be completely different to yours, so our answers are equally valid, and there's...no possible way...any of the answers....can...um...sidebar!
posted by Orange Goblin at 8:50 AM on March 16, 2006
Questions about zombies aren't that different from questions about Santa Claus or true love. There is a culturally shared and understood concept, even if many people have never encountered the real thing.
Back on topic, if you can think of a better way to have a more-or-less obective "please don't chat here" indicator for AskMe, I'm all ears. What's on the AskMe posting page is already the result of several MeTa threads discussing the issue and trying to come up with something that was understandable and clear.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:05 AM on March 16, 2006
Back on topic, if you can think of a better way to have a more-or-less obective "please don't chat here" indicator for AskMe, I'm all ears. What's on the AskMe posting page is already the result of several MeTa threads discussing the issue and trying to come up with something that was understandable and clear.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:05 AM on March 16, 2006
This is silly. What if the question was this: "I have a problem. I don't have a good list of movie sing-along scenes. Can you suggest some good ones for my list?" Would that be permissible? If so, why bother deleting the question as it's written over a semantic squabble? I'm all for AskMe being as useful as possible, but the notion that this question was any different than the zombie question is just wrong.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 9:08 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 9:08 AM on March 16, 2006
I'd sooner see someone applying their specific knowledge of biology to a fun and interesting topic than read the results of a one word Google Search, or "My favritest musical evar!!1! When i was in 8th grade, I played Eliza Doolittle, and - wait, what was your question? Anyway, there I was... "
People should stop hating on the zombies. The question was almost perfectly phrased and the responses were on-topic, fact based, and engaging.
(Although it kinda unraveled at the end, at least it wasn't derailed early by bitchy snarks and petty judgements like so many other AskMes.)
It was a great example of what AskMe should be, IMO.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:09 AM on March 16, 2006
People should stop hating on the zombies. The question was almost perfectly phrased and the responses were on-topic, fact based, and engaging.
(Although it kinda unraveled at the end, at least it wasn't derailed early by bitchy snarks and petty judgements like so many other AskMes.)
It was a great example of what AskMe should be, IMO.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:09 AM on March 16, 2006
monju, if you start your own site, you can have the rules just the way you like them. (And deal with the people who bitch about them just the way it suits you.)
posted by languagehat at 10:24 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by languagehat at 10:24 AM on March 16, 2006
My point isn't that I don't like the rules, my point is that there doesn't seem to be any comprehensible rule to distinguish between zombies and movie sing-alongs. Maybe I'm just dense.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 10:40 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 10:40 AM on March 16, 2006
Indeed, if I had to guess ex ante, I would have guessed that the sing-along post would be more likely to stay, so far as it asks a question about something that exists in the real world. Oh, well.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 10:42 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 10:42 AM on March 16, 2006
Zombies exist. Of course, I wasn't asking about real world zombies, but I was asking how real-world biology would effect movie zombies, if they were real.
I just think that when the dead start rising from their graves, we should know these things.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:09 AM on March 16, 2006
I just think that when the dead start rising from their graves, we should know these things.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:09 AM on March 16, 2006
Just to be clear, I don't think the zombie question needed deletion; I just don't think the sing-along question needed deletion, either.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:14 AM on March 16, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:14 AM on March 16, 2006
"What's your favorite..." = bad.
"What is..." = depends on what follows.
Personally, I think "What movies feature scenes where characters interact with the background music?" would be a fine question. Maybe one with an insane number of answers, but otherwise just peachy. "Which of those movies do you like?" is not a fine question.
One thing I've never understood about the green (and, to a lesser extent, the blue) is that everyone talks about how the guidelines are so vague that it's impossible to know what is and isn't allowed, but that whenever I see a deletion, it always makes perfect sense to me. Maybe Matt and I are just vague in the exact same way, but I've never seen a deletion that I didn't understand and agree with.
Though, to be fair, there have been some things that weren't deleted where I didn't understand why they remained, but the deletions all seem to be pretty clear.
posted by Bugbread at 11:48 AM on March 16, 2006
"What is..." = depends on what follows.
Personally, I think "What movies feature scenes where characters interact with the background music?" would be a fine question. Maybe one with an insane number of answers, but otherwise just peachy. "Which of those movies do you like?" is not a fine question.
One thing I've never understood about the green (and, to a lesser extent, the blue) is that everyone talks about how the guidelines are so vague that it's impossible to know what is and isn't allowed, but that whenever I see a deletion, it always makes perfect sense to me. Maybe Matt and I are just vague in the exact same way, but I've never seen a deletion that I didn't understand and agree with.
Though, to be fair, there have been some things that weren't deleted where I didn't understand why they remained, but the deletions all seem to be pretty clear.
posted by Bugbread at 11:48 AM on March 16, 2006
The nearest thing to a rule I've come up with is whether the poster appears to care what answers they get.
The zombie one was obviously coming from a genuine curiosity, whereas with chatfilter posts you get the feeling the asker will just skim over the answers and forget they ever asked it. The music one appeared to be the latter (though it's borderline).
(and justifying why you care seems like common courtesy to me if you're asking people to spend time reading and replying)
posted by cillit bang at 12:30 PM on March 16, 2006
The zombie one was obviously coming from a genuine curiosity, whereas with chatfilter posts you get the feeling the asker will just skim over the answers and forget they ever asked it. The music one appeared to be the latter (though it's borderline).
(and justifying why you care seems like common courtesy to me if you're asking people to spend time reading and replying)
posted by cillit bang at 12:30 PM on March 16, 2006
The zombie question and others like it are the best of askme these days. The anti-chat test is a bit of arbitrary idiocy that just doesn’t make sense, which is why the defences of it always sound so pathetic. The result is that chatty questions are just fine here, provided you jump through a hoop by lying about why you’re asking and are properly cunning in your phrasing.
posted by Zetetics at 12:57 PM on March 16, 2006
posted by Zetetics at 12:57 PM on March 16, 2006
The anti-chat test is a bit of arbitrary idiocy that just doesn’t make sense, which is why the defences of it always sound so pathetic. The result is that chatty questions are just fine here, provided you jump through a hoop by lying about why you’re asking and are properly cunning in your phrasing.
Do you always piss on your host when you get invited out for dinner?
posted by languagehat at 1:30 PM on March 16, 2006
Do you always piss on your host when you get invited out for dinner?
posted by languagehat at 1:30 PM on March 16, 2006
Zetetics : "The anti-chat test is a bit of arbitrary idiocy that just doesn’t make sense, which is why the defences of it always sound so pathetic."
Rephrased: "The anti-chat test is something that doesn't make sense to me, which is why the defenses of it always sound so pathetic to me"
Which I can agree with, because the anti-chat test is something that does make sense to me, which is why the defenses of don't sound pathetic to me. If A, then B, if not A, then not B.
posted by Bugbread at 2:00 PM on March 16, 2006
Rephrased: "The anti-chat test is something that doesn't make sense to me, which is why the defenses of it always sound so pathetic to me"
Which I can agree with, because the anti-chat test is something that does make sense to me, which is why the defenses of don't sound pathetic to me. If A, then B, if not A, then not B.
posted by Bugbread at 2:00 PM on March 16, 2006
bugbread, your claim of comprehension notwithstanding, do you really think that there's a substantive difference between the sing-along post and the zombie post? If the sing-along post had been worded as I suggested above, I doubt it would have been deleted. If I'm right, that supports Zetetics' argument that the anti-chat test is purely procedural and can be circumvented with minimal reformulation.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 2:05 PM on March 16, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 2:05 PM on March 16, 2006
Just because it can be purely procedural doesn't mean it's useless.
Forcing posters to ask themselves "Why am I asking this?" weeds out the thoughtless posts. If everyone posted every question that popped into their head, AskMe would become completely overwhelmed. Many times I've started to put together a question and in the process of formulating it, realized I didn't have much to gain by posting it. It certainly doesn't stop all the noise, but it helps.
Forcing posters to clairify why they're asking a question leads to better, more specific, and therefore more helpful responses. Questions that have a purpose elicit better answers, for both the original poster and people who read the thread.
posted by occhiblu at 2:24 PM on March 16, 2006
Forcing posters to ask themselves "Why am I asking this?" weeds out the thoughtless posts. If everyone posted every question that popped into their head, AskMe would become completely overwhelmed. Many times I've started to put together a question and in the process of formulating it, realized I didn't have much to gain by posting it. It certainly doesn't stop all the noise, but it helps.
Forcing posters to clairify why they're asking a question leads to better, more specific, and therefore more helpful responses. Questions that have a purpose elicit better answers, for both the original poster and people who read the thread.
posted by occhiblu at 2:24 PM on March 16, 2006
monju_bosatsu : "do you really think that there's a substantive difference between the sing-along post and the zombie post?"
Yes, because it's not a question about one's personal tastes, but a question that requires knowledge, and which certain people can answer 'better' than others. That is, the zombie answer is one of those weird things, in that it is a theoretical question, but within the theoretical framework, there can be more or less correct answers. A question of "what do you like" can only have equally correct answers (you can disprove someone's arguments about how muscles work or whether a ligament without muscles has physical capacity to move. You can't disprove someone's argument that they like a certain movie.)
monju_bosatsu : "If the sing-along post had been worded as I suggested above, I doubt it would have been deleted."
Well, I totally agree with what you're saying, but it isn't something I necessarily like. To wit: you're right, it wouldn't be deleted, and that falls within my scope of "I understand everything that gets deleted, but I don't understand everything that stays". Your question, as phrased, would be something I would delete if I were Matt (and it's a blessing for everyone that I am not). However, if your question were not:
'I don't have a good list of movie sing-along scenes. Can you suggest some good ones for my list?'
but were, instead:
'I don't have a good list of movie sing-along scenes. Can you suggest some for my list?'
Then I don't think it would be deleted, and I wouldn't have a problem with it.
I guess with a question like the zombie one, or a list of movies with singing/acting synchronization, or, even (though this is iffy), questions like "I like authors A, B, and C. What other authors do you think I would like?", there can be 'best' answers, but for a question like "What do you think about X?", all answers that answer the question are automatically equal.
Maybe I think that the standard should be "A best answer has to be possible", but I confess that I haven't thought about the issue deeply enough to know if that would be an optimal standard.
posted by Bugbread at 2:35 PM on March 16, 2006
Yes, because it's not a question about one's personal tastes, but a question that requires knowledge, and which certain people can answer 'better' than others. That is, the zombie answer is one of those weird things, in that it is a theoretical question, but within the theoretical framework, there can be more or less correct answers. A question of "what do you like" can only have equally correct answers (you can disprove someone's arguments about how muscles work or whether a ligament without muscles has physical capacity to move. You can't disprove someone's argument that they like a certain movie.)
monju_bosatsu : "If the sing-along post had been worded as I suggested above, I doubt it would have been deleted."
Well, I totally agree with what you're saying, but it isn't something I necessarily like. To wit: you're right, it wouldn't be deleted, and that falls within my scope of "I understand everything that gets deleted, but I don't understand everything that stays". Your question, as phrased, would be something I would delete if I were Matt (and it's a blessing for everyone that I am not). However, if your question were not:
'I don't have a good list of movie sing-along scenes. Can you suggest some good ones for my list?'
but were, instead:
'I don't have a good list of movie sing-along scenes. Can you suggest some for my list?'
Then I don't think it would be deleted, and I wouldn't have a problem with it.
I guess with a question like the zombie one, or a list of movies with singing/acting synchronization, or, even (though this is iffy), questions like "I like authors A, B, and C. What other authors do you think I would like?", there can be 'best' answers, but for a question like "What do you think about X?", all answers that answer the question are automatically equal.
Maybe I think that the standard should be "A best answer has to be possible", but I confess that I haven't thought about the issue deeply enough to know if that would be an optimal standard.
posted by Bugbread at 2:35 PM on March 16, 2006
Oh, and just for the record, I am definitely not in the camp that thinks you should explain why you want to know something. That, to me, sounds like padding. To me, it's the AskMe equivalent of dropping a Wikipedia link into your blue FPP in order to lend it stature. Fine if you do it, of course, but I don't see it as being necessary.
posted by Bugbread at 2:39 PM on March 16, 2006
posted by Bugbread at 2:39 PM on March 16, 2006
I realized after I posted that that's what I sounded like I was advocating, and it's really not. I don't think it's always necessary for you to explicitly lay out why you're asking, but I think it's best to work out that reason for yourself before you post.
There are many exceptions, but if you can't answer that with anything deeper than "Because I'm curious," then it's probably not a great question.
posted by occhiblu at 2:46 PM on March 16, 2006
There are many exceptions, but if you can't answer that with anything deeper than "Because I'm curious," then it's probably not a great question.
posted by occhiblu at 2:46 PM on March 16, 2006
So you really think that this should be deleted: "I don't have a good list of movie sing-along scenes. Can you suggest some good ones for my list?" But this shouldn't be: "I don't have a good list of movie sing-along scenes. Can you suggest some for my list?" The sole distinguishing factor is, of course, those two little words. In practice, and perhaps even in theory, there is zero difference between those two questions. Any rule that distinguished between those two questions and deletes one while retaining the other is simply nonsensical.
And if the retention of that question indeed falls into your "understand all deletions, but not retentions," doesn't that belie your claims that the anti-chat rule is easy to understand?
posted by monju_bosatsu at 2:47 PM on March 16, 2006
And if the retention of that question indeed falls into your "understand all deletions, but not retentions," doesn't that belie your claims that the anti-chat rule is easy to understand?
posted by monju_bosatsu at 2:47 PM on March 16, 2006
monju_bosatsu : "The sole distinguishing factor is, of course, those two little words."
Well, yeah. And the only difference between "I hate Jews" and "I don't hate Jews" is one little word. "I'm going to shoot this guy for fun" and "I'm going to shoot this guy in self-defence" is another two word change, which doesn't rely on the kinda cheap "not" trick.
monju_bosatsu : "In practice, and perhaps even in theory, there is zero difference between those two questions."
Really? Maybe I just parse questions differently, but I'd expect a ton of different answers for one question and the other. I know nothing about singing/acting synching movies, so I couldn't answer either question, but if the question were about something I knew about, my answers to "What X do you like?" would be very different from "What X exists?". And the cumulative list would also be different: one would be all about what people thought of different X, the other would be an objective description of all X that exist.
However, it does show that my guess that "There has to be a possibility of best answers" was a bad choice, because any answer to "What X exists" will be equal quality provided the answer is an X that exists. So, farewell, short-lived-hypothetical-requirement.
monju_bosatsu : "And if the retention of that question indeed falls into your 'understand all deletions, but not retentions,' doesn't that belie your claims that the anti-chat rule is easy to understand?"
Well, to be fair, I never said the anti-chat rule is easy to understand, only that 1) it makes sense to me, and 2) I've never been surprised by a deletion. But, in a more accurate answer, I'd say that the anti-chat rule makes sense to me (that is, I understand and agree with it), but the enforcement of the anti-chat rule (which things break the anti-chat rule get to stay, and which go) is something which I do understand, but can't put into words (much in the way that I know how to roll my tongue, but couldn't explain to somehow how to roll their tongue), but don't agree with.
posted by Bugbread at 3:07 PM on March 16, 2006
Well, yeah. And the only difference between "I hate Jews" and "I don't hate Jews" is one little word. "I'm going to shoot this guy for fun" and "I'm going to shoot this guy in self-defence" is another two word change, which doesn't rely on the kinda cheap "not" trick.
monju_bosatsu : "In practice, and perhaps even in theory, there is zero difference between those two questions."
Really? Maybe I just parse questions differently, but I'd expect a ton of different answers for one question and the other. I know nothing about singing/acting synching movies, so I couldn't answer either question, but if the question were about something I knew about, my answers to "What X do you like?" would be very different from "What X exists?". And the cumulative list would also be different: one would be all about what people thought of different X, the other would be an objective description of all X that exist.
However, it does show that my guess that "There has to be a possibility of best answers" was a bad choice, because any answer to "What X exists" will be equal quality provided the answer is an X that exists. So, farewell, short-lived-hypothetical-requirement.
monju_bosatsu : "And if the retention of that question indeed falls into your 'understand all deletions, but not retentions,' doesn't that belie your claims that the anti-chat rule is easy to understand?"
Well, to be fair, I never said the anti-chat rule is easy to understand, only that 1) it makes sense to me, and 2) I've never been surprised by a deletion. But, in a more accurate answer, I'd say that the anti-chat rule makes sense to me (that is, I understand and agree with it), but the enforcement of the anti-chat rule (which things break the anti-chat rule get to stay, and which go) is something which I do understand, but can't put into words (much in the way that I know how to roll my tongue, but couldn't explain to somehow how to roll their tongue), but don't agree with.
posted by Bugbread at 3:07 PM on March 16, 2006
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Yes.
posted by LarryC at 7:18 AM on March 16, 2006