Belittling me only dwarfs my concerns.

September 17, 2007 11:18 AM

Since Metafilter seems to be a self-policing paragon of sensitivity with regard to body type issues, I am genuinely curious as to why cracking jokes about those who are, say, modest in stature, is totally wink-wink "I'm just giving you shit" fine?

I'm referring in particular to this thread, the unnecessary use of the word "dwarf," and the kind of not-that-funny insensitivity that followed. I've always wondered why we're comfortable teasing short people in a way that we never would someone who is obese.

posted by ghastlyfop to Etiquette/Policy at 11:18 AM (68 comments total)

who said that?

*looks down*

Oh.
posted by jonmc at 11:21 AM on September 17, 2007

Well, I hope this doesn't turn into a giant flame fest, but I'll chime in to say that yes I also don't think it's cool to use the term dwarf or midget to disparage someone else, or to make fun of people who legitimately suffer from those conditions.
posted by shmegegge at 11:24 AM on September 17, 2007

First they came for the retards, and I said nothing, for I am not a retard. Then they came for the midgets, and I said nothing for I am not a midget. Then they came for the abusive cockmonkeys, and there was no one left to speak out.
posted by jonson at 11:26 AM on September 17, 2007 [11 favorites]

mefites may not tease the fatties, but they sure do shit on them a lot.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 11:26 AM on September 17, 2007

Man, how could you take that bait, jonmc! So quickly, too. I do have a sense of humor about it (you HAVE to have a sense of humor about it, for chrissakes), but I think it's a pretty legitimate subject of inquiry, and I'm actually serious.
posted by ghastlyfop at 11:28 AM on September 17, 2007

I just hope we can keep this short.
posted by everichon at 11:28 AM on September 17, 2007 [4 favorites]

I'm glad everyone is being grown up about this. Yeah, I said it.
posted by ghastlyfop at 11:30 AM on September 17, 2007

Oh, and thanks for taking it seriously.
posted by ghastlyfop at 11:30 AM on September 17, 2007

Then they came for Dave Faris, and we were like, fuck it, that's cool.
posted by phaedon at 11:38 AM on September 17, 2007

"I'm not happy! I'm NOT happy!!!"

Well, which one are you, then?
posted by yhbc at 11:40 AM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

I thought it was handled pretty well within the thread, ghastlyfop. I noticed the exchangein-thread before this MeTa thread was posted, and I thought you handled it well. You commented on the word choice, and PeterMcDermott responded to it. My impression is that it's the not-that-funny insensitivity in general, and not body issues in particular, that doesn't go over so well here. The thread seems like a good example of self-policing at work to me. Were there other objectionable comments that followed that I didn't notice?
posted by Tehanu at 11:40 AM on September 17, 2007

This thread will be closed shortly
posted by poppo at 11:41 AM on September 17, 2007

If we can't laugh at fatties, short people, and Canadians, what good are they?
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 11:42 AM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

I've always wondered why we're comfortable teasing short people in a way that we never would someone who is obese.

Because we are taller, stronger, and faster than them.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 11:44 AM on September 17, 2007 [4 favorites]

people who legitimately suffer from those conditions

I was just pretending.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:44 AM on September 17, 2007

If we can't laugh at fatties, short people, and Canadians, what good are they

Soylent green.
posted by dersins at 11:45 AM on September 17, 2007

Man, how could you take that bait, jonmc! So quickly, too. I do have a sense of humor about it (you HAVE to have a sense of humor about it, for chrissakes), but I think it's a pretty legitimate subject of inquiry, and I'm actually serious.

as a wise man once said: there's the real world and there's the joke world. the joke world can get tough. Wear a cup.
posted by jonmc at 11:46 AM on September 17, 2007

That thread is too long for me to read. What are we getting offended about? People making fun of actual dwarfs and midgets or people making fun of metaphorical dwarfs and midgets?
posted by ND¢ at 11:46 AM on September 17, 2007

Man, I wish I could find a copy of that Kliban "height watchers' cartoon online. Stupid internet.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:47 AM on September 17, 2007

This is going deliciously well.
posted by ghastlyfop at 11:49 AM on September 17, 2007

Eponysterical.
posted by everichon at 11:54 AM on September 17, 2007

I've always wondered why we're comfortable teasing short people in a way that we never would someone who is obese.

Short people can't eat us
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:57 AM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

They can if they start with the feet.
posted by jonmc at 11:58 AM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

When you are instigating an argument with someone over an offhanded tangential remark and you do not feel the community at large has paid enough attention to your dire rebuttals you should:

A) Start a vague MetaTalk thread denouncing a supposed unspoken sitewide policy of acceptable discrimination while actually referring to the original comment that personally upset you
B) There is no B

I move for an addition to the FAQ
posted by prostyle at 12:01 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

The thread seems like a good example of self-policing at work to me.

Me too. If there's some reason to believe self-policing didn't work here, ghastlyfop, you might want to point it out specifically as no one else seems to be seeing it.
posted by scottreynen at 12:05 PM on September 17, 2007

They can if they start with the feet.

Good point. I'll add it the "Survival Manual for the Dwarf Apocalypse". It'll go in the "Their Secret Moves" chapter.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:07 PM on September 17, 2007

ghastlyfop, it's kind of a tricky equation: punny riffing is pretty much a national sport on the site, and is usually intended pretty benignly; that that can collide with things about which users are genuinely sensitive makes for some weird moments (and, ideally, at least a mea culpa), but to some extent it's on people to just (a) approach it in good humor or at least (b) deal with that conflict with some restraint.

Shorter: pretty much everything falls into wink-wink "I'm just giving you shit" territory by default. People really getting out of line or getting personally nasty is one thing, but there's not really a whole lot to say along the lines of "don't be insensitive to characteristic foo" besides just that.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:09 PM on September 17, 2007

I agree, scottreynen - it did, but curiosity got the better of me (much the same way sensitivity did last night), and I still think this particular double-standard is worthy of discussion. Perhaps I should have dug up some more examples of it, but things are going so well here I figured I'd let nature take its logical course. And besides, this thread is a killer demonstration of my point.
posted by ghastlyfop at 12:10 PM on September 17, 2007

this thread is a killer demonstration of my point.

If your point was "people who start metatalk threads about how something outrages them will be mocked vigorously," then, yes, this thread is an excellent demonstration of that.

Anything else, not so much.
posted by dersins at 12:18 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

I also don't think it's cool to use the term dwarf or midget to disparage someone else, or to make fun of people who legitimately suffer from those conditions.

While I'd agree with the first half, it should be noted that most of us don't actually 'suffer' from dwarfism.

But seriously, I'm confused by the thread. Are you that sensitive about your height? I'd like to preemptively point out that I could very well be the shortest person in this thread, in the hopes that that will give me some immunity against charges of anything worse than simple snarking.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 12:20 PM on September 17, 2007

ghastlyfop, do you really think things are going well here, or do the comments here actually bother you? If the latter, making sarcastic statements to the the contrary may not be the best way to address the issue.

I don't think you can treat anything in MeTa as evidence of a double standard as MeTa doesn't really have standards, or if it does the standards are to repeat whatever the OP is complaining about in hopes of a flameout. An example. Looks like a single standard to me.

On a related note, this site has some neat pictures.
posted by scottreynen at 12:25 PM on September 17, 2007

Don't make fun of real dwarves!! Real dwarves mine expensive gems and live together in one big house.

Real dwarves are the best! they whistle while they work.
posted by Megafly at 12:32 PM on September 17, 2007

Honestly, neither, scottreynen, and had I been aware of that homophobia post maybe I wouldn't have been so quick to rattle off this one.
Hey, I'm big enough to admit that a momentary burst of sensitivity got the better of me and it manifested itself in what felt at the time like a genuine inquiry. There's a degree of ax-grinding here on my part, I've been spanked, and I regret using MeTa for it. Move along.
posted by ghastlyfop at 12:35 PM on September 17, 2007

Short-tempered.
posted by yerfatma at 12:38 PM on September 17, 2007

Ghastlyfop - well done. But you forgot to close the <> tag.
posted by Sk4n at 12:46 PM on September 17, 2007

I swear that was the gratious-non-flameout tag. It even looked good in live preview. Meh.
posted by Sk4n at 12:47 PM on September 17, 2007

I still think this particular double-standard is worthy of discussion

That's a pretty short-sighted view.

and I'm actually serious.

That's very big of you.

I'm referring in particular to this thread, the unnecessary use of the word "dwarf," and the kind of not-that-funny insensitivity that followed.

Shrug, it's not a huge problem.

but I'll chime in to say that yes I also don't think it's cool to use the term dwarf or midget to disparage someone else

That's a rather small minded view, don't you think?


Seriously now, here's the original quote from the thread:
"I read The Game, and though I still have trouble figuring out how an unattractive little dwarf like Neil Strauss could persuade anybody to sleep with him, I did enjoy the book."

Now, lets sub in something else for dwarf:

"I read The Game, and though I still have trouble figuring out how an unattractive little faggot like Neil Strauss could persuade anybody to sleep with him, I did enjoy the book."

"I read The Game, and though I still have trouble figuring out how an unattractive little nigger like Neil Strauss could persuade anybody to sleep with him, I did enjoy the book."

"I read The Game, and though I still have trouble figuring out how an unattractive little cupcake like Neil Strauss could persuade anybody to sleep with him, I did enjoy the book."

"I read The Game, and though I still have trouble figuring out how an unattractive little Democrat like Neil Strauss could persuade anybody to sleep with him, I did enjoy the book."

"I read The Game, and though I still have trouble figuring out how an unattractive little nerd like Neil Strauss could persuade anybody to sleep with him, I did enjoy the book."

"I read The Game, and though I still have trouble figuring out how an unattractive little bitch like Neil Strauss could persuade anybody to sleep with him, I did enjoy the book."

"I read The Game, and though I still have trouble figuring out how an unattractive little admin like Neil Strauss could persuade anybody to sleep with him, I did enjoy the book."

Discuss.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:50 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

That's pretty much illustrates the double standard I was hoping to explore in this now regrettable folly.
posted by ghastlyfop at 12:56 PM on September 17, 2007

"I've always wondered why we're comfortable teasing short people in a way that we never would someone who is obese."

Because they have no reason to live?
posted by klangklangston at 12:57 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

Talk to the knee 'cause the face aint listening.
posted by vronsky at 1:26 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

Dwarves are just reformed trolls.

Treat them kindly (they could relapse).

(And yes, it is an established fact that 90% of the MeFites who have been called "trolls" are indeed under 4-feet-6-inches in height. And have more-than-proportionately small penises.)
posted by wendell at 1:27 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

That's pretty much illustrates the double standard I was hoping to explore in this now regrettable folly.

The term "double standard" does not mean that all slurs are equal. You can't say nigger 'cause there's a huge history there that comes roaring pretty much any time you use it as an insult.

Dwarf doesn't have a similar history or meaning. Faggot somewhat does, cupcake to a lesser extent, democrat doesn't, nerd doesn't, bitch doesn't and of course, admin is just bizarre.

Dwarf refers to short person and it's use certainly wasn't a compliment in the original thread. But I've having trouble equating it with all the other insults.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:30 PM on September 17, 2007

Because no one ever made $1million selling T-shirts and bumper stickers that say "No Short Chicks!"
posted by Martin E. at 1:39 PM on September 17, 2007

I want to make out with all of you so bad right now.
posted by mckenney at 2:01 PM on September 17, 2007

Wow, check out the post above this one. Thanks for taking the heat off!
posted by ghastlyfop at 2:04 PM on September 17, 2007

Oh, except you. Must be 5'9" to ride this ride.
posted by mckenney at 2:06 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

I want to make out with all of you so bad right now.

But I'm bigboned!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:13 PM on September 17, 2007

Well done, ghastlyfop. It's unusual to recover so quickly and gracefully from a pile-on. For a fop, you're not that ghastly!
posted by languagehat at 2:28 PM on September 17, 2007

It's because they've got grubby little fingers
And dirty little minds
They're gonna get you every time
posted by Neiltupper at 2:36 PM on September 17, 2007

...make fun of people who legitimately suffer from those conditions.
Is t hat one of those conditions under the same heading as gayness and fatness?
posted by dg at 3:51 PM on September 17, 2007

For klangklangston . . . you midget tosser.
posted by nola at 4:00 PM on September 17, 2007

hi guys!
posted by phaedon at 4:03 PM on September 17, 2007

Yeah, what languagehat said. Plus, ghastlyfop's right about his general point, and the MetaTalk poo-flinging brigade is stupidly wrong.
posted by mediareport at 4:19 PM on September 17, 2007

Is this the part where we get to see a video of super short people screaming about vampires & werewolves? 'Cuz I wanna see that. Especially if there's a celebrity cameo by Danny Devito.... preferably drunk on limoncello.
posted by miss lynnster at 5:58 PM on September 17, 2007

I'm confused.

Are we not supposed to refer to people whose stature is short but within normal boundaries as being dwarves because they think that they're somehow superior to people who are suffering from the medical condition of dwarfism? Or is it the point that people with dwarfism resent being compared with somebody as unattractive as Neil Strauss?

Or is the point that we're just not supposed to draw attention or pass comment on any distinctive body features whatsoever?

Clarification please.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:35 PM on September 17, 2007

And if it's the latter, can I declare a moratorium on disparaging remarks about people with big furry hats and lipstick on their necks? Because I really don't have a choice about my aesthetic impoverishment.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:38 PM on September 17, 2007

Cracking jokes about anything is perfectly fine.

The only requirement is that the jokes are actually funny.

If you make jokes that are offensive to most people (you know, 9-11 jokes on September 12th, for example) well, people can and may judge you harshly, which is as it should be. We don't need to save people from hearing things that may offend them, we need people to understand that they cannot and will never be safe from hearing things that will offend them, but are responsible only for the contents of their own minds.

And that other people are sometimes unkind. And jokes aren't always funny.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:33 AM on September 18, 2007

Also, I'm kinda surprised that *that* was the post that produced my first Metatalk callout. I was absolutely certain that the link I posted to a YouTube video of a workshop by Mystery's mentor, Roy Brown -- (PUA name 'Chubby'), would be the one that did it.

NSFW, kids, delicate feminist sensibilities, etc. etc.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:00 AM on September 18, 2007

unattractive little dwarf

What bothers me is the redundancy.
posted by pracowity at 6:19 AM on September 18, 2007

We don't need to save people from hearing things that may offend them, we need people to understand that they cannot and will never be safe

Who are these "we" folk?

Seriously, there's something ugly about a slur that's delivered to put someone in their place, or calibrate their sensitivities. It's not far from that logic to "beat up the sensitive kid to toughen him up - we're doing him a favor!"

I love a really offensive insult as much as/more than the next guy, but the funny has to come first.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 10:19 AM on September 18, 2007

which stav does note, by the way.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 10:20 AM on September 18, 2007

Yeah, man! It's the old adage, which I fully believe in, that nothing is truly offensive if it's funny enough.
Slightly off topic...ultimately, anyone who marvels that someone who they perceive as physically inferior (ugly, bald, short) is getting action clearly isn't getting enough action themselves. Which is ultimately what kicked this whole shitstorm off. Now let's be friends, and get out there!
posted by ghastlyfop at 10:48 AM on September 18, 2007

Ever feel like that caveman in those horrible Geico commercials? Occasionally, I do, and it never ends well.
posted by ghastlyfop at 10:53 AM on September 18, 2007

I've always wondered why we're comfortable teasing short people in a way that we never would someone who is obese.

Because they're so cute when they throw those tiny little tantrums in response.
posted by orange swan at 11:45 AM on September 18, 2007

You missed the party, orange swan.
posted by ghastlyfop at 11:57 AM on September 18, 2007

Who are these "we" folk?

'We', as addressed to the poster of the thread, to whom I was responding, would be the theoretical group (to which I do not belong, but rhetorically joined for the purpose at hand) that finds ourselves offended at and willing to attempt to censure and/or censor the speech of others.

That 'we'.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:44 PM on September 18, 2007

:P
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:44 PM on September 18, 2007

Then they came for Dave Faris, and we were like, fuck it, that's cool.

Wow. I don't know whose sock puppet you are, but it appears I've offended you since you drag my name into a thread I'm not even participating in, about a thread I also wasn't participating in. Do me a favor and stalk someone else.
posted by Dave Faris at 9:01 AM on September 25, 2007