dextrose

September 17, 2007 11:50 AM

It's not ok to be fat. Yet, if anyone gets anywhere near this medical, social, and genetic consensus, people go apeshit and like magic, the comment is deleted. It just doesn't seem right to me.
posted by four panels to Etiquette/Policy at 11:50 AM (238 comments total)

I like fat chicks. They got nice butts.
posted by jonmc at 11:53 AM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

whine whine whine.
posted by delmoi at 11:53 AM on September 17, 2007

So, you're complaining about over-moderation again, yes?

There's a comment in there by Dr. President Elvis whatever being brutally honest about the fat issue but the comment is still there. Do you think they are singling you out now or perhaps it was the way you phrased it...
posted by vacapinta at 11:58 AM on September 17, 2007

Actually studies show that people classed as 'overweight' (BMI 25.0–29.9) are have fewer health problems then people classed as 'normal weight' (25.0–29.9). Of course, it's not good to be 'obese'.

I know it's important for you to TELL PEOPLE THE FACTS like how black people are all murderers infected with AIDS but do try to get them correct.

Thanks!
posted by delmoi at 11:59 AM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

Yeah, actually, it is okay to be fat. Not everybody is, not everybody wants to be, and there are genuine health/etc implications, but that's life.

Your comment in the askme you're talking about was one of several that addressed the fat aspect of the question, but it was pretty much the only one of the bunch that instructed the asker that they were fundamentally flawed and that step one in dealing with their life is to lose weight, period. That's kind of a weird non-answer way to approach it, and you've done it previously in another thread as well.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:59 AM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

Is there a particular thread you're talking about?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:59 AM on September 17, 2007

Is it still ok to be phat? Or do the kids not use that one anymore?
posted by Kwine at 12:01 PM on September 17, 2007

delmoi: "Actually studies show that people classed as 'overweight' (BMI 25.0–29.9) are have fewer health problems then people classed as 'normal weight' (25.0–29.9)."

fpp plz
posted by Plutor at 12:01 PM on September 17, 2007

"it's not ok to be fat" is your own opinion and was unhelpful in a thread asking for tips on socializing so it was deleted. Seems crystal clear to me.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 12:02 PM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

Don't you mean that the comment is disinclined?
posted by shmegegge at 12:02 PM on September 17, 2007

Thanks for the replies.
posted by four panels at 12:04 PM on September 17, 2007

Is it ok to be incredibly nude right now? Because otherwise I'm going to need a blanket STAT.
posted by Divine_Wino at 12:04 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

*pours extra butter on the popcorn*
posted by felix betachat at 12:04 PM on September 17, 2007

Just repeat after me. "I'm OK and gosh darn it, people like me."
posted by oddman at 12:06 PM on September 17, 2007

Please don't leave us again four panels.
posted by chunking express at 12:06 PM on September 17, 2007

Four_p: as a disinterested observer I propose this for your consideration. You're complaining that the deletion is not right. I'm not sure that's a productive approach. I think that ask mefi tries to be a rather supportive place. That doesn't preclude using a friendly tone of voice. I guess your tone of voice was off.

Oh, and follow me please....
left shoulder to ear....1....2...3
right shoulder to ear....1....2....3

Ok, very good. And now..... shrug!
Very good. See? That wasn't so hard.
posted by jouke at 12:06 PM on September 17, 2007

Oops. I meant

... you can confront people with things they don't want to hear but that doesn't preclude using a friendly tone of voice ...
posted by jouke at 12:09 PM on September 17, 2007

fpp plz

Blog posts: 1, 2, 3

study itself.

Not very interesting, IMO. But basically somewhat overweight people are healthier then 'normal weight' people.
posted by delmoi at 12:14 PM on September 17, 2007

It's not OK to be a rude, judgmental jerk, either. And that supposed "consensus" is nowhere near as complete as you seem to think it is.
posted by ottereroticist at 12:15 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

Because posts about overweight people usually go over so swimmingly.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 12:20 PM on September 17, 2007

It's not right, but it's okay.
posted by hermitosis at 12:20 PM on September 17, 2007

I love it when four panels trolls metatalk.

And by "love it" I mean "am vaguely annoyed by, but mostly indifferent to it."
posted by dersins at 12:22 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

I also suggested that losing weight would help her attract men (and I believe it will), but my comment was allowed to stand.

I don't think your remark was removed because of some fat person conspiracy.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 12:24 PM on September 17, 2007

I don't think your remark was removed because of some fat person conspiracy

Maybe they ate it.
posted by jonmc at 12:28 PM on September 17, 2007 [12 favorites]

"It's not ok to be fat."

It is OK to be a cockbucket though, so you have that going for you. Which is nice.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:35 PM on September 17, 2007 [15 favorites]

It's not ok to be fat.

What? It's not ok to be fat? Is it okay to be an alcoholic? or a drug addict? Is it ok to be someone who cheats on their spouse?

Of course it's ok to be fat. It's no one's business but the fat person's. But somehow it has become socially acceptable to tell people they should lose weight if they want love. Should they put out too? Should they suffer whatever indignities imposed on them by their partner so they can have love.

People should control their weight for health reasons, but that does not mean not being fat. How many skinny people out there have insanely high cholesterol? More than you think, ask David Letterman.

Guess what, some people get fat. Their bodies store it. They don't eat any more food than you, or eat any differently than you do, but they get fat. That's genetics for you. Some people go bald, others don't. Some people are scrawny little punks no matter how often they go to the gym, other people put on muscle working the TV remote. Life's a fucking rich tapestry, et cetera et cetera.

You know what isn't okay? Putting shit into your body that people tell you not to, getting addicted to it, and then bitching and moaning on AskMe about how hard it is to get off it. Boo fucking hoo, you should have listened to Nancy Reagan in the first and just said no. If Chubby can be mocked because god forbid s/he goes to McDonald's once a month, then guess what, I get to ride your ass like a fucking harpy about your meth habit. Oh, but I guess personal choices are OK, because They Aren't Hurting Anyone Else

You cheated on your wife and now she's going to divorce you and take the kids? Fuck you, you're a shitty dad, and you deserve misery and a lonely death. Oh, a thousand pardons, being a shitty dad is Ok (TM).

You have a steady boyfriend but met some new guy on IRC or WOW or larping or whatever, and you want to ask if it's okay for you to cheat if boyfriend never finds out? Yes, it is okay provided that the guy you cheat with is a serial killer who chops off your head when he climaxes. Youth is wasted on the young, oxygen is wasted on the stupid. Sorry, was that insensitive? I apologize. Oh wait, no I don't.

Your bro in law hits his kids and you're not sure if you should say something? You're a fucking asshole for not having said anything up to now, and if you don't do something about it, I hope those kids grow up and set fire to your house, with you in it, you self-involved prick. Guy beats kids = you do something. It isn't rocket science.

"My boyfriend wants sex all the time but I don't" - you're an insensitive cunt.

"I want sex all the time but my girlfriend doesn't" - you're an insensitive cunt.

"I want a divorce and we have X children" - you're an insensitive cunt.

"Why can't I cheat on X?" Because you're question is anonymous and I can't hunt you down and show X how to smash your fucking head into a wall. Oops, did I type that? Sorry, Who You Choose to Have Sex With is Ok (TM) by me

All of these things are wrong and insensitive and mean and that's why (a) no one says them, and (b) the mods delete them if they show up. But people do them all the fucking time and AskMe is riddled with this, but Hey, man, It's All Good!

If it's okay to be any one of these despicable things above, then we are light years into it being okay to be fat. Being a bad person is not ok. Being born with a predetermined genetic makeup is OK.

Get it? Got it? Good. Now get off my lawn, before I release the hounds.

(this isn't directed at you, four panels, more of a general rant. You're a good egg.)
posted by Pastabagel at 12:38 PM on September 17, 2007 [58 favorites]

But somehow it has become socially acceptable to tell people they should lose weight if they want love.

As a matter of fact, being fat makes it more difficult attract romantic interests. I don't see why stating this simple truth should be controversial.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 12:42 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

When did four panels start doing meth?
posted by Pollomacho at 12:44 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

also, I'm not advocating violence. The previous discussion, with its varied references to heads, walls, the application of the of former into the latter, and the attendant velocities and momentum functions are merely hyperbole for "stern lecture". You are each very special tender buttercups and I hope that by sharing a little bit of ourselves we've all grown a little in the eyes of each other and Our Blessed Earth Mother. Thank you for sharing your time with me here today in MetaCorner. Be well, friends.
posted by Pastabagel at 12:46 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

I know for a fact that all of the mods photoshop their pictures, so as to not appear as fatty-fatty-boombalatties.
posted by klangklangston at 12:49 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

One could argue that genes are a large factor in body mass, and in famine times those "fat genes" are actually important to one's survival. People who have the "skinny genes" might look all svelte and sexy in times of plenty, but in times of famine they look all svelte and dead from starvation.
posted by mullingitover at 12:51 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

I like big butts and I cannot lie.


*channels jonmc*
posted by jokeefe at 12:53 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

Buddy (four panels) - you don't see me in here complaining about my post being removed (yeah, the language was pretty offensive).

However - lets play a game:

It's not ok to be fat.

Would your sentence stand if we changed it?

It's not ok to be gay.

It's not ok to be black.

It's not ok to be jewish.

Are you, or have you ever been a medical professional? Can you state that without a doubt that being fat is unhealthy? At what point is someone considered "fat"?
posted by jkaczor at 12:57 PM on September 17, 2007

FAT=JEWISH, OK? WE HAVE TO BE SENSITIVE, ESPECIALLY TO FAT JEWS!
posted by klangklangston at 12:59 PM on September 17, 2007

Damn right you have to be sensitive around fat jews, I ain't tangling with no motherfucker can eat that much brisket.
posted by Divine_Wino at 1:02 PM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

People, being fat does not make it necessarily make it more difficult to attract the opposite sex. It makes it more difficult to attract the stereotypical white American man. Black men and Hispanic men often prefer heavier girls, and certainly very few will actually complain about or refuse to date someone who isn't skinny.

Keep your tastes to your own damn self.
posted by oddman at 1:03 PM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

Sigh. I can't believe this thread has gone on for this long without someone busting out.

So now I'll have to do it. Thanks a lot.

I like big butts
and I cannot lie...
posted by aramaic at 1:05 PM on September 17, 2007

SKINNY LITTLE FUCK.
posted by quonsar at 1:10 PM on September 17, 2007

It makes it more difficult to attract the stereotypical white American man. Black men and Hispanic men often prefer heavier girls, and certainly very few will actually complain about or refuse to date someone who isn't skinny.

So to sum up: Being overweight makes it more difficult to attract the stereotypical white American man, but makes it easier to attract the stereotypical black man and the stereotypical Hispanic man.
posted by pardonyou? at 1:11 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

People, being fat does not make it necessarily make it more difficult to attract the opposite sex.

This is ridiculous. Are you really suggesting that, all else being equal, a fat person has just as many romantic opportunities as a person who isn't fat? That's ludicrous!

Sure, fat people find romantic partners all the time, but that's not really the point. People who aren't fat generally have access to a higher-quality pool of potential partners, and it's silly to pretend otherwise.

Very, very few people will refuse to consider a person simply because they're not fat, but many people are not interested in dating fat people.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 1:13 PM on September 17, 2007

Being overweight makes it more difficult to attract people who are not attracted to overweight people. Duh.
posted by casarkos at 1:15 PM on September 17, 2007 [5 favorites]

Being overweight makes it more difficult to attract the stereotypical white American man, but makes it easier to attract the stereotypical black man and the stereotypical Hispanic man.

No, what he meant was:

"Being overweight makes it more difficult to attract the stereotypical white American man, but being overweight, naked, and covered in jam at the North Pole makes it easier to attract the stereotypical polar bear."

This is insensitive because it makes it easier to attract stereotypical grizzly bears, too.
posted by Pastabagel at 1:16 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

People who aren't fat generally have access to a higher-quality pool of potential partners

I dunno, I'm a skinny mofo, and all my potential partners seem to be meth-addicted hookers.

...not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.
posted by aramaic at 1:17 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

Damn right you have to be sensitive around fat jews, I ain't tangling with no motherfucker can eat that much brisket.

For years I thought that "brisket" was actually spelled "briscuit." Weird, huh?
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:18 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

There's no such consensus. What a ridiculous trolling post.

If MetaTalk's sole purpose is not actually to serve as the cesspit of MetaFilter, attracting the garbage posts that aren't wanted elsewhere, what is the point of letting a thread like this exist?
posted by ikkyu2 at 1:18 PM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

I think your comment was deleted because it didn't answer my question, which was how to be comfortable around men. My question probably could have been a lot clearer, I confess that I was figuring it out as I went along. I didn't know why I have such difficulty with men, but I figured the most likely cause was my own shyness/lack of confidence, and not my weight.

Dr. Steve Elvis' answer begged to differ, and that's okay, that's an answer.

I do believe it's okay to be fat. I actually don't think my weight is the source of my unattractiveness. But I'm not a man.
posted by Danila at 1:20 PM on September 17, 2007 [4 favorites]

I dunno, I'm a skinny mofo, and all my potential partners seem to be meth-addicted hookers.

You're probably ugly. That's my problem too!
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 1:20 PM on September 17, 2007

This is insensitive because it makes it easier to attract stereotypical grizzly bears, too.

I don't know any grizzly bears that hang out at the north pole. Shit, I don't know any brown or black bears that hang out up there. Only white bears hang out where it's that cold.
posted by Pollomacho at 1:23 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

People who aren't fat generally have access to a higher-quality pool of potential partners,

Well, you've gone from "uncomfortable truth" to "just plain goofy". Excellent.
posted by rtha at 1:24 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

You're probably ugly. That's my problem too!

Wait, are you saying you too are ugly or that aramaic being ugly is a problem for all of us?
posted by Pollomacho at 1:25 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

People who aren't fat generally have access to a higher-quality pool of potential partners, and it's silly to pretend otherwise.

MPDSEA, I generally agree with your argument in principle, but I think you misstepped there. If you're sticking to facts, I think you're on more solid ground with the quantity of the pool, not the quality (which is a term around which you'd be unlikely to obtain any consensus). But I agree with you that all else being equal, there are more individuals willing to date someone who is "normal" weight than are willing to date someone who is "overweight." (Not saying they're right, just that it's a pretty indisputable fact). The more potential partners, the greater the likelihood of finding a partner. Ergo, all else being equal, someone who is normal weight has a greater likelihood of finding a partner than someone who is overweight.
posted by pardonyou? at 1:25 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

WE HAVE TO BE SENSITIVE, ESPECIALLY TO FAT JEWS!

I have to go apologize to Jackie Mason now.
posted by ND¢ at 1:27 PM on September 17, 2007

"Are you really suggesting that, all else being equal, a fat person has just as many romantic opportunities as a person who isn't fat? That's ludicrous!"

No, I said being heavy is unattractive to sterotypical white men.
Can you read? I can. Being an overweight woman only hinders your love life if you ideal man is not brown. (Did that bring it down to a level that you can understand?)
posted by oddman at 1:27 PM on September 17, 2007

Wait, are you saying you too are ugly or that aramaic being ugly is a problem for all of us?

I too am ugly. I believe it largely explains my romantic troubles.

MPDSEA, I generally agree with your argument in principle, but I think you misstepped there.

I think you're right. I'd like to retract the "quality" statement as unfounded.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 1:30 PM on September 17, 2007

HIGH QUALITY! GOOD OR BETTER! HOLLYWOOD!
posted by breezeway at 1:31 PM on September 17, 2007

*pours extra butter on the popcorn*

Honey, I think you might wanna reconsider that extra butter. You look like you're packing on the pounds.
posted by ericb at 1:35 PM on September 17, 2007

You're probably ugly. That's my problem too!

A fella' walks into a supermarket and buys:

1 bar of soap
1 tube toothpaste
1 loaf of bread
1 pint of milk
1 single serving cereal
1 single serving frozen dinner

The gum-smacking teenage girl cashier looks at him and says "Single are you?" The guy replies sarcastically "How did you guess?" She answers, "Because you're ugly."
posted by ericb at 1:40 PM on September 17, 2007 [6 favorites]

Being a fat dude doesn't attract the average ladies all that well either. If it did Dom Deluise would have been a leading man, right?
posted by tkchrist at 1:41 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

If MetaTalk's sole purpose is not actually to serve as the cesspit of MetaFilter, attracting the garbage posts that aren't wanted elsewhere, what is the point of letting a thread like this exist?

Don't listen to the mean doctor, dextrose. Just because your an ugly thread, that doesn't mean you don't deserve to be loved. The other threads are just jealous of your inner beauty. Now hand me a fried twinky.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:42 PM on September 17, 2007

If it did Dom Deluise would have been a leading man, right?

Pavarotti did pretty well.
posted by Pollomacho at 1:42 PM on September 17, 2007

*you're*
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:42 PM on September 17, 2007

HIGH QUALITY! GOOD OR BETTER! HOLLYWOOD!

Tastes GREAT!!! Less FILLING!!!
posted by ericb at 1:43 PM on September 17, 2007

"Only white bears hang out where it's that cold."

Why you gotta bring race into it?
posted by klangklangston at 1:43 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

Nobody's a leading man next to Burt Reynolds.
posted by shmegegge at 1:43 PM on September 17, 2007 [5 favorites]

Guess what, some people get fat. Their bodies store it. They don't eat any more food than you, or eat any differently than you do, but they get fat. That's genetics for you.

Sure, there's a genetic component. We all know some guy whose main exercise is drinking beer and watching football on TV and who magically stays buff, and I don't know any but I keep reading about ultra-fit obese people. (I know lots and lots of really strong fat people whom I would never agree to arm wrestle, but not any fit fat people; how big a percentage of people are "fit but fat" I don't know.)

But making it sound like it's all genetics misses that there are big lifestyle differences. I mean, today already I've walked (according to Google maps) at least 5 miles, and by the end of the day it should be between 7 and 8 miles, total. (That's on top of however much walking to the bathroom and around the supermarket and so on adds up to, which I figure is probably similar for a lot of people.) Hardly running a marathon or climbing a mountain, but it is a pretty decent baseline of activity that allows me to eat my cheeseburgers and drink beer and snack on tortilla chips without storing the calories as fat.

I'm no fitness nut and am hardly skeletal, but I'm also not blind to the fact that very few of the people I see out hiking, bicycling, or otherwise exerting themselves in the outdoors are particularly rotund. I'm not saying this in any way judgmentally -- whatever shape you want to be, more power to you. I just don't like all the emphasis on genetics, without acknowledging the differences in how people live their day to day lives.
posted by Forktine at 1:44 PM on September 17, 2007

From now on, every fucking time someone posts a question to askme about attractig the opposite sex, i'm going to say "GET RICH."
posted by shmegegge at 1:44 PM on September 17, 2007

From now on, every fucking time someone posts a question to askme about attracting the same sex, i'm going to say "DITCH THE BITCH."
posted by ericb at 1:46 PM on September 17, 2007

If you admit that there is a genetic component, does that mean you admit that fat people get laid?
posted by Pollomacho at 1:46 PM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

That's from your "Can" link, btw.

Hoisted by your own petard, friend!
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 1:46 PM on September 17, 2007

Hoisted by your own petard, friend!

If he wasn't so fat maybe somebody would hoist his petard for him?
posted by Pollomacho at 1:47 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

From now on, every fucking time someone posts a question to askme about attracting flies, i'm going to say "DIE, MOTHERFUCKER!."
posted by jonmc at 1:47 PM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

From now on, every time someone fucks me, i'm going to POST A QUESTION TO ASKME
posted by found missing at 1:49 PM on September 17, 2007 [4 favorites]

Ladies love my noxious personality. Really!
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 1:49 PM on September 17, 2007

One could argue that genes are a large factor in body mass, and in famine times those "fat genes" are actually important to one's survival. People who have the "skinny genes" might look all svelte and sexy in times of plenty, but in times of famine they look all svelte and dead from starvation.

This is a fat / genetics argument I can totally buy. When the famine comes, I fully expect to have my skinny bones gnawed on by plumper survivors of the apocalypse.

Either that, or I'll need to keep a bunch of them in the basement as my mobile larder, and live parasitically on their superior genetics.
posted by Forktine at 1:50 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

From now on, every fucking time someone posts a question to askme about attracting electrons, i'm going to say "Do-dee-do-doo-dee-do Charge It!."
posted by Pollomacho at 1:51 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

Nobody's a leading man next to Burt Reynolds.

Finally one of you says something that makes some goddamn sense.
posted by ND¢ at 1:52 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

I am fat. I'm not ugly (except for some of my fattest parts). I'm not Jewish. (At least, I don't think so; it's been a while since I've been able to check if I'm circumcised.) And I am not OK. But that's not just because I'm fat. I am also not looking for a partner, I'm looking for the World's Best Chili Cheese Fries. It's called setting priorities. And if I don't live to be 88, I'll miss the worst of the Global Warming and Social Security Bankruptcy. There is method to my madness (and madness to my method; as I said before, I am NOT OK.) But that's all OK with me. Now, I'd prefer if you laugh WITH me and not AT me, but sometimes you gotta take the laughs you can get. And the "retarded kids" in Mach3avelli's video are the only ones besides him laughing at it. What I'm saying is "It's OK to not be OK" except when you're causing pain to somebody other than yourself (unless they specifically request it) and being an obnoxious asshole causes more pain in the MetaFilter site than obesity or drug addiction or alcoholism (although it is often a contributing cause of assholism) or sexual misconduct (except at meet-ups). Which is probably why goatse is the ultimate internet icon, because there are so many gigantic assholes here. But I digress. What I mean to say is, yes, I'm fat, and yes, sometimes I'm an asshole, but not nearly as badly as some others, and that's probably because I have hemorrhoids, which is often a bi-product of being fat. But I digress again. I'm fat, but not stereotypically fat, or stereotypically male, stereotypically white, stereotypically left-handed or stereotypically blonde (actually, light brown with grey, but when I was growing up I was very blonde - but not stereotypically). What did i mean to say? Damn, i should never post comments on an empty stomach.
posted by wendell at 1:54 PM on September 17, 2007 [13 favorites]

basically somewhat overweight people are healthier then 'normal weight' people.

Flegal's study has been debunked. A clear explanation from Scientific American is available here.

Of course, Flegal's study is so attractive I don't expect it to go away. After all, millions or billions of people, myself included, fight the weight battle with exercise and diet and still fall short of optimal ranges. After all that effort, it would be nice to think it not only doesn't matter, but that we're better off that way. Too bad it isn't true.
posted by mdevore at 2:00 PM on September 17, 2007

there are so many gigantic assholes here

And this asshole made the news today!
posted by ericb at 2:03 PM on September 17, 2007

*Buys a big package of parentheses for Wendell's birthday*
posted by Cranberry at 2:03 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

Let me also take this opportunity to say: chunky ladies, look my way.

Oh yes. Rowr.
posted by aramaic at 2:04 PM on September 17, 2007

If we don't fight them over there, they'll follow us home and we'll have to fight them in the blue.
posted by anthill at 2:06 PM on September 17, 2007

The debunking of the Flegal research was not really so much of a debunking as it was a turf war. The Sci Am article seems to criticize points Flegal actually addressed in her work, and the Harvard School of Public Health criticism of her work seems motivated by the fact that Flegal's work criticized their earlier study.
posted by occhiblu at 2:12 PM on September 17, 2007

Flegal's study has been debunked. A clear explanation from Scientific American is available here.

Well, that's not a 'debunking' that's a criticism. The debunking complains that Flegal's study counted smokers, but why shouldn't she? Fat people smoke too. So why exclude them?

_{Stampfer cites the Flegal study as a prime example of the errors the critics make. The reason being overweight seemed to reduce mortality is because Flegal used the wrong comparison group, he says. The lean group in her study included smokers and people with chronic illnesses—both of whom have increased mortality risks, but not because they are slim. “When you get sick, you lose weight, and you die,” Stampfer says. Compared with those who are smokers or chronically ill, people who are overweight come out looking better than they should.}
posted by delmoi at 2:18 PM on September 17, 2007

What did the Jewish chubby chaser say to the morbidly obese shrouded dreadnought of a Palestinian chick?









"Hey, I like big butts. You're not black, are you?"
posted by Mister_A at 2:20 PM on September 17, 2007

Flegal's study has been debunked. A clear explanation from Scientific American is available here.

As occhiblu suggests, "debunked" isn't the right word. You'll also want to check out this piece that was posted to The New Republic last week.
posted by pardonyou? at 2:28 PM on September 17, 2007

23skidoo the important part of that quote is the the Black and Hispanic men are more tolerant than White and Asian guys. Thus they have less (trust me much less) of a problem dating heavier girls. Thus being overweight is not a hindrance if you are interested in dating Black and Hispanic men.

So, what's the problem? (BTW, nice sophistry in ignoring the rest of the articles and posting the one sentence that seems, at least superficially, to count against me.)
posted by oddman at 2:36 PM on September 17, 2007

it was a turf war

I'll stick with the term "debunking" relative to the Scientific American remarks. A long list of blog rebuttals would be expected -- even a few contradicting studies. Few, if any, scientific conclusions in this world are 100% supported by everyone who qualifies as scientist under any rubric.

Anyway, the not-only-healthy-but-healthier is just such a damn beautiful idea to let go without a fight, particularly in light of the "I'm OK, You're OK" revolution a few decades ago. However, my remarks on the study do not address whether it's "OK" to be fat, because "OK" is so broad as to be almost meaningless in the context of this MetaTalk thread. They specifically address a claim made in the thread for which there is strong, perhaps overwhelming, evidence to the contrary. Personally I'm usually a few pounds away from where I should be and I think I'm generally an OK guy, too.

Lastly, I do not believe the counterarguments simply seem to be motivated by mistake or mere pique.
posted by mdevore at 2:36 PM on September 17, 2007

I piss in your higher-quality pool!
posted by Abiezer at 2:39 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

mdevore, you're missing the point. The "debunking" article in Sci Am that you cited doesn't, in fact, debunk Flegal's study.

Flegal's study shows that the earlier Harvard study had flaws, and when those flaws are eliminated from a study, you get different results. The Sci Am paper quotes those same Harvard researchers saying that Flegal's study is wrong because it got different conclusions from theirs.

Which was the whole point.

pardonyou?'s link presents it in a less bloggy fashion:

In particular, it's difficult to find studies in which mortality at the lower end of the "normal" range isn't quite a bit higher than at the low end of the "overweight" range (the absolute low point in the mortality curve tends to be at the border between "normal weight" and "overweight," or in first couple of units of the "overweight" range). Thus Willett's claim that people should strive to be in the lower end of the "normal" range flies directly in the face of the actual data.

So what evidence do the Harvard people cite? Not surprisingly, their own studies--most frequently the Nurses Health and Physicians Health studies: long-running observational studies featuring over one hundred thousand participants. But these studies also feature a number of serious problems. For one thing, sometimes they produce the "wrong" results. ... How does Willett deal with this inconvenient data? By citing it to support the opposite conclusion.
posted by occhiblu at 2:43 PM on September 17, 2007

There any point to this?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:44 PM on September 17, 2007

Is this the thread where the fat dwarves go to talk about their enormous cocks?

whuddup, my peeps!
posted by BitterOldPunk at 2:45 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

Re Rill.
posted by Kwine at 2:49 PM on September 17, 2007

Whoops, spoke too soon.

*Gives BitterOldPunk secret handshake*
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:49 PM on September 17, 2007

This is why we can't have nice things, or date them.
posted by iamabot at 2:55 PM on September 17, 2007

to further support what 23skidoo said, even in predominantly black or hispanic neighborhoods, skinny girls have far less trouble than heavy girls (this is anecdotal to be sure, though), and though heavy girls have far less trouble finding dates in these neighborhoods than in predominantly white neighborhoods, there's a reason that halle berry and beyonce get modeling jobs and star jones got her stomach stapled. is it fair? no. is it true? I'm inclined to say so. ymmv.
posted by shmegegge at 2:57 PM on September 17, 2007

The fact that big girls are more accepted by Black and Hispanic guys is very very nice, but completely irrellevant to the fact that regardless of skin color, the average man prefers thin women.

This is the same man that wants to have 2.5 kids right?

My point is that the term "average" is itself meaningless unless you know all about statistics and standard deviations and all that. Not to mention variables such as geography and culture.

I think when person A wants a romantic partner, they arent looking for the average person. Perhaps only 40% of the population likes their weight (vs. 50%) and perhaps only 72% like their eye color or their intelligence or warmth. In the end, they're looking for only one person not a series of graphs.

I understand the notion of "all other things being equal" but all other things are never equal especially in the area of human relationships.
posted by vacapinta at 3:03 PM on September 17, 2007

Men want hot women, study confirms

NSS
posted by yeti at 3:10 PM on September 17, 2007

Black and Hispanic men are more tolerant than White and Asian guys. Thus they have less (trust me much less) of a problem dating heavier girls. Thus being overweight is not a hindrance if you are interested in dating Black and Hispanic men.

Even if it's true that black and Hispanic men are more tolerant of heavier women than white and Asian men are, it simply doesn't follow that being overweight isn't a hindrance for a woman wishing to date a black or Hispanic man. This is what you don't seem to be understanding.

All indication is that men typically prefer women who are not overweight over women who are. You've presented some evidence that this preference may be weaker among some men, but that doesn't really address the initial argument, which was that a fat woman can increase her romantic desirability by losing weight.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 3:13 PM on September 17, 2007

26 men speed dating in Munich are like this. 20 women speed dating in Munich are like this.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:14 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

"When given only seven minutes to talk to someone, people tend not to delve into deeply personal or intellectual matters! Therefore, all women need to lose weight!" NSS
posted by occhiblu at 3:16 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

Man, it seems like you just have an issue with fat, with whatever your definition of fat is.

Apparently, the way you address it is offensive. Thus, you get edited. That is that.
posted by stormygrey at 3:19 PM on September 17, 2007

So it is only fat Women were talking about now? Women don't have to choose partners? I guess they just get chosen.
posted by Sk4n at 3:20 PM on September 17, 2007

Oh fuck.

We're.

Bed now.
posted by Sk4n at 3:21 PM on September 17, 2007

I'm sensing a pattern.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 3:26 PM on September 17, 2007

aramaic, jokeefe liked big butts and could not lie about it before you, so your shaming everyone for not "busting out" with a reference to Sir Mixalot's scholarship in this arena was totally out of order. Not only that, apparently unsatisfied with the lack of response to your first foray, you are now openly yelling at chunky ladies to look your way. Now, no one could be sorrier than I was when I learned that your baby do not got back, and I mean this with the utmost kindness and best wishes: the relentless truthtelling from the "cannot lie" assficionadoes in this venue won't net any of you better backed babies. Take it to the streets!

(Dang it. "Assficionado" is already in the Urban Dictionary. I'll never coin a new word...)
posted by Don Pepino at 3:27 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

Rumor has it that 99% of overweight people are within 3 standard deviations of average weight. What's 3 standard deviations if you love each other?

I'm not overweight, I'm +0.4 sigma.
posted by blue_beetle at 3:28 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

But making it sound like it's all genetics misses that there are big lifestyle differences.

Corollary: making it sound like it's all lifestyle differences misses that there are big generic components as well. And whereas I can eat like a damn pig and never, ever exercise -- yet still remain taut and thin -- other people have the opposite problem, remaining large (and presumably in charge) no matter how active they are/healthy they eat.

Also, general rules are made to be broken; I'm white, and I've always been partial to meat on the bone. At some point, skinny becomes gross -- it'd be like having sex with myself.*

Believe me, I've tried. Sleeping with really skinny girls, I mean. And, er, the other one.

what?
posted by davejay at 3:29 PM on September 17, 2007

> You'll also want to check out this piece that was posted to The New Republic last week.

The article in question is headed "Why Harvard Wants You To Be Unhealthily Thin," though the columnist, Paul Campos, never actually did get around to saying why. But I can tell you why. It's because when you come right down to it, and over and beyond the Mass. Av. PC smokescreen that gets so much ink, nobody knows better than Harvard that you can never really be too rich or too thin.
posted by jfuller at 3:35 PM on September 17, 2007

I'm sensing a pattern.

Yeah speaking of which, this thread is a double, kinda. And he didn't participate in that thread either.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:35 PM on September 17, 2007

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you guys are white. Am I right?
posted by oddman at 3:41 PM on September 17, 2007

You know who else had a genetic consensus?
posted by ofthestrait at 3:43 PM on September 17, 2007

Damn, i should never post comments on an empty stomach.

No, you should post them on metatalk!

BA-DUM!

Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week.

Unless I get fired, of course...
posted by dersins at 3:49 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

The article in question is headed "Why Harvard Wants You To Be Unhealthily Thin," though the columnist, Paul Campos, never actually did get around to saying why. But I can tell you why. It's because when you come right down to it, and over and beyond the Mass. Av. PC smokescreen that gets so much ink, nobody knows better than Harvard that you can never really be too rich or too thin.

Huh? The article said exactly that. I think it's just a bunch of speculation.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you guys are white. Am I right?

Uh, no.
posted by delmoi at 3:51 PM on September 17, 2007

I'm gonna shoot for a BMI of 24.999999. That way I can be "normal" weight for all the anti-fat zealots and still enjoy the lowest mortality.
posted by Justinian at 3:59 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

I do believe it's okay to be fat. I actually don't think my weight is the source of my unattractiveness. But I'm not a man.

/me steps into Fantasyland

What we need is AskMeWithoutFear, a new site where people ask questions and get fearless answers. Too many nervous Nellies that look at the above statement and want to shy away from the cold, hard, inconvenient truth that one always deserves love, but one cannot always get it because of circumstances that are obvious to everyone but you. And hence the need for a way to provide a fearless answer.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you guys are white. Am I right?

Go look up my nickname and ask me that again.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:01 PM on September 17, 2007

Why does a direct personal insult in AskMe not result in a timeout?
posted by mediareport at 4:07 PM on September 17, 2007

When the fat lady does sing, it sounds so much better if you use $6000 speaker wires.
posted by StickyCarpet at 4:15 PM on September 17, 2007

I'm an extremely white guy, and I'll take the fat girls over the twigs anytime. Not because I give a crap about body image or feminism or the fashion indusrty, but for purely selfing reasons. Flesh is fun to play with and big girlshave more of it.
posted by jonmc at 4:19 PM on September 17, 2007

What we need is AskMeWithoutFear, a new site where people ask questions and get fearless answers. Too many nervous Nellies that look at the above statement and want to shy away from the cold, hard, inconvenient truth that one always deserves love, but one cannot always get it because of circumstances that are obvious to everyone but you. And hence the need for a way to provide a fearless answer.

I really don't think people are too afraid to answer honestly. The thread was very helpful, without all the "brave" suggestions of gluttony. I am not a glutton. I have PCOS. I was average weight til puberty, then suddenly I was not anymore. Other than the PCOS, physically I am quite healthy. And even if I wasn't, and even I were an unhealthy glutton, that still wouldn't mean I shouldn't get dates. There are too many other imperfect people out there for me to buy that.

The question also wasn't "Do I deserve love?". I do, I don't need to ask that and don't need any answers to that question. I shouldn't have to be scared around men just because I'm fat, and I'm rather shocked that anyone would imply that, but they must be if they think the answer to "How Do I be less scared" is "gluttons don't deserve love, they should be scared".
posted by Danila at 4:23 PM on September 17, 2007 [9 favorites]

Enjoy!
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 4:23 PM on September 17, 2007

Is this the thread where I'm supposed to confess I'm a fat girl who got mad laid by cute white boys in high school? Or where I'm supposed to cite the studies that show the huge difference between the medical definition of "overweight" and what men would even begin to perceive of as fat?

I'm so confused by the Smart/Snarky Reese Peanut Butter Cups of tonality here at MetaTalk.
posted by Gucky at 4:24 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

Um, that was supposed to be for jonmc.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 4:24 PM on September 17, 2007

It's not ok to be fat.

Ambrosia Voyeur is fat. Modus tollens, twerp.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 4:25 PM on September 17, 2007

I do believe it's okay to be fat. I actually don't think my weight is the source of my unattractiveness. But I'm not a man.

She may be self-admittedly heavy - but you know what four panels? She's got more balls than you.
posted by jkaczor at 4:29 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

Steve: more like her, her(NSFW), her, her and her.
posted by jonmc at 4:32 PM on September 17, 2007

As a matter of fact, being fat makes it more difficult attract romantic interests. I don't see why stating this simple truth should be controversial.

This is just completely NOT true and before someone throws out the chubby chaser remark-no, the only dates fat girls get aren't just from guys that are fetishizing them. They also get dates from normal guys that like pretty faces or big butts and small waists. It takes all kinds and you'd be surprised to find that it's not the majority of men that are that worried about a woman's weight.
posted by hollygoheavy at 4:38 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

big girlshave

Whateva floats your boat! Sending "hairy girls" to NYC, as we speak! ; )
posted by ericb at 4:40 PM on September 17, 2007

hey, jonmc, who's the last one? I recognize all of them but her.

gonna have to do some, um, research after work
posted by Snyder at 4:45 PM on September 17, 2007

wendell: as I always say, you only live once- make it quick.
posted by potch at 4:45 PM on September 17, 2007

snyder: Mia Tyler.
posted by jonmc at 4:46 PM on September 17, 2007

What's 3 standard deviations if you love each other?

I, myself, am the standard of deviation.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:46 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

it was probably inevitable that immediately following the short thread is the fat thread.
posted by quonsar at 4:53 PM on September 17, 2007

when's the bald thread?
posted by jonmc at 4:54 PM on September 17, 2007

My ideal girl is a size 14.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 4:55 PM on September 17, 2007

It's okay to be fat, it's okay to be phat;
It's okay the have AIDS, everyone does;
It's okay to by dying, most of us are.
It's okay to fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way;

To chase after the sun as its sinking;
To complain on MetaTalk when it comes up behind you again.

It's okay to be gay, it's okay to pray.
So you can't always get what you want;
You can't always help what you type.

It's not right, but it's okay;
It's not wrong, but it's impossible;
It couldn't be clearer, metafilter is a fat dwarf;
You know what I mean, it's intentionally ambiguous;
It's not permissible, but it's okay.
posted by sfenders at 4:55 PM on September 17, 2007

All I'll say is that the most sexually successful woman I ever knew was kinda on the heavy side. Like, by far the most sexually successful. No agenda; just an observation.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:56 PM on September 17, 2007

We could have a bald thread, but someone needs to comment about bald people on the blue or green, and then someone else needs to get offended and call them out.

At least, that's how we usually do things.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 5:00 PM on September 17, 2007

I don't know any but I keep reading about ultra-fit obese people. (I know lots and lots of really strong fat people whom I would never agree to arm wrestle, but not any fit fat people; how big a percentage of people are "fit but fat" I don't know.)

I just want to say I am fit and fat. How fat? There are a lot of metrics for that... obese according to BMI, barely. A 5'8" size 14. How fit? Who knows? More than ever, though. Grooving after an hour of intense cardio. 120 over 80 BP.

I'm no fitness nut and am hardly skeletal, but I'm also not blind to the fact that very few of the people I see out hiking, bicycling, or otherwise exerting themselves in the outdoors are particularly rotund.

I can validate this, though. I feel sort of out of place, or like a spectacle on my bike (not a cruiser) or hiking (not strolling) or at the gym working out as hard as I do. It's ironic in a way, to feel like I don't belong for that reason. When the truth is, probably from genetics and because I was a heavy child, that I will have to be very active my whole life to maintain my personal ideal weight, and that I will never be, nor will I desire to be, thin. You should see my ass. You'd understand.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 5:00 PM on September 17, 2007

"Is this the thread where I'm supposed to confess I'm a fat girl who got mad laid by cute white boys in high school?"

Dude, everyone knows fat chicks are easy—why do you think black and hispanic guys like them so much?

They are sexual animals!
posted by klangklangston at 5:04 PM on September 17, 2007

You should see my ass.

Unjust fucking world it is indeed.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 5:06 PM on September 17, 2007

By God the hate is strong in this thread.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 5:08 PM on September 17, 2007

"...Umm, she'd make a fine piccolo
If she only stayed on key
Boy she's shaped like a rubber band
And she loves to snap at me
Everybody thinks I'm insane
To overlook her faults
But here's the reason I like 'em skinny
Instead of full of schmaltz

'Cause.....Closest to the bone
Sweeter is the meat
Last slice of Virginia ham
Is the best that you can eat
Don't talk about my baby
She's slender but she's sweet
And it's closest to the bone
And sweeter is the meat"

And so on! Basically Louis Prima's point, and Sir Mixalot's and all ficionados' points whether they're ass- or the opposite is, "My baby tops your baby because my baby's phenotype bucks the standard, which proves that I am a connoisseur and not one of the common rabble. Which is hot."

The baby in question may be flat out called talentless and stupid, as in "Closer to the bone" where she'd make a great fountain pen if she only knew how to write, or the philosopher might simply ignore everything about the baby but the part of the baby's body that makes the baby superior, which is arguably a more effective way of negating the personood of the baby.

If that were the aim or if the personhood of the baby were even considered, but it never is; the personhood of the baby is a non-issue and the depersonalization of the baby isn't even close to the point, it's just a side effect. The point is to praise the praiser. A baby is her body and the right body on a baby is precisely what makes her possessor more than a body: a discerning, sensitive epicure. "Flesh/bone is fun and big/little girls have more of it [and I noticed this and you did not and I have gamesmanship and you are a wannabe w/ no skillz]."

A possible offshoot of this might be that potential babies of the right phenotype who feel as the yodeler does that their phenotype is valuable might hear the yodeling and flock around and try some bartering, which would create a gratifying display, adding further evidence that the yodeler is The Man.

All I'm saying is, these sentiments have been pithily and catchily expressed in song by the two above-named and the two above-named already won years ago. Louis Prima is The Man and Sir Mixalot is The other Man, now and forevermore. The field is closed. You cannot play.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:09 PM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

Uranus... 14? Only if she's 4'8", that one. I know from 14.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 5:11 PM on September 17, 2007

I didn't say dress size.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 5:16 PM on September 17, 2007

Let's tell fat jokes that have been modified so as to be literally true.

I'll start!

Q: How do you find a fat girl's vagina?
A: It is located in the torso, on the posterior portion of the abdomen, ventral to the anus.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 5:17 PM on September 17, 2007 [4 favorites]

All I'll say is that the most sexually successful woman I ever knew was kinda on the heavy side. Like, by far the most sexually successful. No agenda; just an observation.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:56 PM on September 17

What does 'sexually successful' mean? Did she achieve sexvana? Did she master the ancient arts of sexrotica? Does she have an MBA in sex?
posted by Pastabagel at 5:40 PM on September 17, 2007

Wait a minute here. How do you figure out if you're fat or just "pleasantly plump"? I look like a white Queen Latifah. Am I fat? Or attractively curvy?
posted by BuddhaBelly at 5:42 PM on September 17, 2007

Ooh, ooh... Let me try.

Q: How do you locate the dick in a thread?
posted by found missing at 5:42 PM on September 17, 2007

I look like a white Queen Latifah. Am I fat?

Fearless answers, people! We need the fearless answer system! ;-)
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:50 PM on September 17, 2007

I FIGHT VAMPIRES!
posted by miss lynnster at 5:59 PM on September 17, 2007 [4 favorites]

Forktine, if I may, a breakdown of your argument:

Assertions:

1. I walk around during the day.
2. I eat cheeseburgers (sometimes).
3. I am not fat.
4. Runners and bikers and hikers are skinny.

QED: Fat people don't exercise and/or eat poorly.

I'm not sure how these things follow. Do you not see fat people walking around? Are the streets full of only the skinnies? You're generalizing your experience and it really doesn't work that way. Some people walk during the day and eat some cheeseburgers and get fat or stay fat. Some people sit at home and play video games and eat lots of cheeseburgers and stay ridiculously, unfairly, skinny.

These fat discussions always have this weird edge of people not understand that other people's bodies do things differently than their own. I don't get it!
posted by wemayfreeze at 6:08 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

Yo mama so fat that when she fell down and broke her leg it was initially extremely painful and caused severe limitations to her mobility, but with reasonable attention from her doctor and about six weeks of bed rest she healed successfully and only experiences a little bit of discomfort when she has to walk long distances or stand for more than an hour in damp weather, thank god.
posted by Divine_Wino at 6:10 PM on September 17, 2007 [11 favorites]

I FIGHT VAMPIRES!

I'm favoriting this comment, but I have no idea why. It's like my little tribute to tehloki or something.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:17 PM on September 17, 2007

Your mama's so fat that when she sits around the house, she literally sits around the house.
posted by found missing at 6:17 PM on September 17, 2007

Yo momma's so fat, I swerved to avoid her and ran out of gas.
posted by sephira at 6:23 PM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

This thread has such a pretty face.
posted by rob511 at 6:25 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

What does 'sexually successful' mean? Did she achieve sexvana? Did she master the ancient arts of sexrotica? Does she have an MBA in sex?

Yes.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:26 PM on September 17, 2007

"Frasier, you're so corpulent that when you sit around the magnificently appointed Tuscan villa you sit AROUND the magnificently appointed Tuscan villa."
posted by the other side at 6:33 PM on September 17, 2007

"I look like a white Queen Latifah."

Make joke, or make pass? Make joke, or make pass? Make joke, or make pass?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:50 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

hat size?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 6:50 PM on September 17, 2007

I have an MBA in sex. I can't tell you about my thesis though, due to MeFi's strict harassment policy.

Also, I vote that FourPanels is one of them self-hating Fats.
posted by SassHat at 7:00 PM on September 17, 2007

I don't know any but I keep reading about ultra-fit obese people. (I know lots and lots of really strong fat people whom I would never agree to arm wrestle, but not any fit fat people; how big a percentage of people are "fit but fat" I don't know.)

You just don't know enough people dude. Like Ambrosia Voyeur, I'm 5'8" and rock a size 14, and I just got back from a 35 minute 4 mile run. I am fit.
posted by gaspode at 7:18 PM on September 17, 2007

found missing writes "From now on, every time someone fucks me, i'm going to POST A QUESTION TO ASKME"

Considering the posting limits that might be a bit TMI there found missing.

jonmc writes "Mia Tyler"

Rawr! She's the half-sister of actress Liv Tyler.
posted by Mitheral at 7:23 PM on September 17, 2007

Aesthetics are a moral imperative!
posted by blenderfish at 7:25 PM on September 17, 2007

let us not forget that the current bony vogue is a recent development. for most of human history ample avoirdupois was associated with the desireable characteristic of fertility, witness images of venus, aphrodite and earlier goddesses. fat chicks can get all the action they want if they can just figure out how to go back in time!
posted by bruce at 7:34 PM on September 17, 2007

Fat and fit? How about a 300lb female triathelete?
Or a fat trainer who sued Jazzercise for discrimination and won?
Or a record breaking open-water swimmer?
Or a 315lb female football player?
Or a maybe an Olympic weight lifter?
posted by kimdog at 7:40 PM on September 17, 2007

This year, Holley has earned a spot as a backup guard on the offensive line and is one of her team's most imposing physical presences -- she checks in at 315 pounds this season, able to bench press 265 pounds and squat 525 pounds.

That is some trollbait with a sharp hook right there. Holley smash!

I so wish I could be her prom date.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 7:49 PM on September 17, 2007

"I look like a white Queen Latifah."

Swing it, you vanilla goddess.
posted by Kickstart70 at 7:57 PM on September 17, 2007

You just don't know enough people dude. Like Ambrosia Voyeur, I'm 5'8" and rock a size 14, and I just got back from a 35 minute 4 mile run. I am fit.

Yes, absolutely -- I sure didn't mean to imply that you are not a real person. But this is where definitions get squirrelly -- maybe 5' 8" and size 14 is above some magic BMI line of obesity, I don't know. But it is definitely not Fat-with-a-capital-F.

Out hiking, or in other places where I see other people doing physical stuff, I never ever see really BIG people. But I sure see a lot of people who are up in the "overweight" zone. So if 5' 8" / size 14 counts as "fit and fat," then I know lots.

These fat discussions always have this weird edge of people not understand that other people's bodies do things differently than their own. I don't get it!

Dude, I totally get that, and agree completely. But I very strongly disagree with the implication in statements like:

Some people walk during the day and eat some cheeseburgers and get fat or stay fat. Some people sit at home and play video games and eat lots of cheeseburgers and stay ridiculously, unfairly, skinny.

which is that it is all genetics, and so your body is just going to do what it is going to do, nothing you can do about it, no need to worry, que sera sera. I'd say that yes, genetics plays an enormous role in how our bodies deal with exercise, stress, food, and the difficulties of modern life, but given that constraint, so do the small decisions we each make hundreds of times every day.

I walk a lot, and I eat a lot. If I get busy with work and stop walking, but don't stop eating, I gain weight. If I kept that up for a long time, I'd gain a lot of weight. (Like most of us, I have relatives who are hugely obese, so I probably have the genes for some pretty serious weight gain if I set my mind to it.) I don't let that happen -- if my pants get tight and my cheekbones disappear, I know that I need to make some changes and I do.

Maybe it takes me less effort to regain my cheekbones than some people, but then other people don't even need to worry about it at all. That's genetics, and as far as I understand things none of us can change this. But my choices about how many cheeseburgers to eat and whether to drive to the grocery store or walk, and what to buy there, are mine to make, and over time have a huge impact on my life.
posted by Forktine at 8:00 PM on September 17, 2007

Your mama's so fat, she fell in love.... and broke it.
posted by dersins at 8:06 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

Forktine: I'm no fitness nut and am hardly skeletal, but I'm also not blind to the fact that very few of the people I see out hiking, bicycling, or otherwise exerting themselves in the outdoors are particularly rotund.

Ambrosia Voyeur: I can validate this, though. I feel sort of out of place, or like a spectacle on my bike ... I will have to be very active my whole life to maintain my personal ideal weight, and that I will never be, nor will I desire to be, thin.

This I find really interesting because cycling is my chosen mode of transportation, and I intend to make it as effective as possible, which implies a high degree of physical fitness over the long term. At the same time I've been pretty heavy all my life..


To flesh that out with personal experience a bit..

About 20 months ago I was up to a BMI of 33.1, and I was eating crap. I started having blood sugar problems that were not disimilar to this old AskMe. I changed my diet around, and I began exercising a lot more, and I quickly shed 30+ lbs (BMI under 30).

At the same time I learned a lot about what it means to make cycling an effective alternative for transportation. I learned that the 65km to Hamilton isn't a huge undertaking, but is actually just a nice afternoon outing. I learned that part of the reason that is true is the fact that I was 30lbs lighter..
And, I learned that high cadence is the secret to going!

This year I've ridden even more, and lost more weight (BMI ~25) and I've noticed the truth of a comment I saw a few months ago, something like "Doing so much physical activity, I felt like I was eating my own body". See, when you are active like wolfdog was this August, it can actually become hard to eat enough! Ya, not surprising to many people, but when your BMI is pushing 30, you've eaten more than your normal helping for lunch, and you are still conking out half way home.. I've also realized that every lb I lose is a little bit more speed and a little more distance too.

And in additional to all that, however marginal the importance may be, I'm pretty sure I look better at 205 than I did at 265..

The typical fat=bad shit that gets bantied about is stupid, but it turns out that obesity is actually bad. Bad in a very broad lifestyle kind of way though. Holistically. Not as a sign of moral weakness!
Or, at least, not any more weakness than driving a car to work :)
posted by Chuckles at 8:17 PM on September 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

It's not ok to be fat. Yet, if anyone gets anywhere near this medical, social, and genetic consensus, people go apeshit and like magic, the comment is deleted. It just doesn't seem right to me.

You're confused. It is okay to be fat. It's not okay to be a jerk about fat people on MetaFilter, especialy in AskMe. It's also less than okay to bring the same grudge into MeTa over and over again which is, loosely paraphrased "I was just speaking truth to power and The Man got all up in my junk again"

four panels, I feel that every time I delete a comment of yours you come here and complain about it. I feel like maybe we haven't been clear: there is no overwhelming consensus on MeFi that all fat people ar worthy of disdain, yours or other people's. If you lack the ability to be decent to other people on MeFi because of your own issues about weight, especially in AskMe, your comments get flagged and often removed.

That is how it works. You can choose to participate or not, but continually coming to MeTa as if you forgot how the site works or maybe you were thinking something changed since the last time you were here wastes everyone's time.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:18 PM on September 17, 2007 [5 favorites]

I almost forgot..
like a spectacle on my bike

It's called "owning it" :)
posted by Chuckles at 8:19 PM on September 17, 2007

"I was just speaking truth to power and The Man got all up in my junk again"

Grill, jessamyn. Not junk, grill.

*Sighs, shrugs, resumes real-keepin'-ness*
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:31 PM on September 17, 2007

Dear Jessamyn,

I was going to favorite your comment as a signal that I agreed with it wholeheartedly and then I remembered that I find that a poor signal of wholehearted agreement in general and so I thought I would say that I really, really, really agree with your comment and want to reinforce that ask.metafilter.com works really, really well only because people choose to set aside their subjective personal hobbyhorses and answer the questions in a spirit as true as possible, as is defined by the asker's question.

Dear Everyone Else,
That is the only way that the site works and it should be obvious to anyone who spends a reasonable amount of time there that it is a special resource that requires the efforts of everyone who uses, enjoys and benefits from it to keep it that way.

So I say to all of you, please fucking well answer the question properly and keep your personal shit out of it. It's not hard, in fact the hardest part is simply saying I don't know how to answer this so I'm not going to say anything at all.

relationship, self-doubt, emo-filter is perhaps an exception, but the sentiment still applies, DO NO HARM, as the sawbones say.

If I can quote without specifically attributing the imperative to this particular topic as opposed to just espousing a general notion that I hope people (including myself) should keep in mind, I'd reference good old Kurt V:

"There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- 'God damn it, you've got to be kind.'"
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:51 PM on September 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

Chuckles, you freaking rock. I like what you rode about writing.

Okay, this is good sake.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:04 PM on September 17, 2007

Ok, fine. I'll go ahead and say it.

I think that some fat girls are hot.

And I don't think that it's weird or anything.

There. I said it. Did I just totally fuck up your world?
posted by Elmo Oxygen at 10:13 PM on September 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

"There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- [three-second delay] you've got to be kind.'"

Foxed that for ya.
posted by rob511 at 10:36 PM on September 17, 2007

I'm always kind to babies.
posted by miss lynnster at 11:11 PM on September 17, 2007

Babies are delicious.

Also, I'm officially a Pastabagel fan now. That's some mighty fine rant, right there.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:33 PM on September 17, 2007

“...and you'd be surprised to find that it's not the majority of men that are that worried about a woman's weight.”

I doubt this is true. I mean, about American men, anyway.

Usually, I'm all attacking the four panels types who are so damn bigoted against people they think are overweight. But this thread seems a little too tilted in the other direction (which, all things considered, is a good thing).

You really can't argue that there's this ridiculous beauty standard in the the US where women are notably underweight, practically starving themselves, and whole busloads of super-skinny role models and sex objects while, at the same, argue that most men prefer heavier women. I think the former is true (and I agree with the complaints against that state of affairs) and I think it almost certainly indicates a social norm and a social ideal that is not at all about heavier women.

Having said that, someone mentioned in a comment that there's perhaps a definitional problem going on. From my own experience, and because of all the social pressure on women to be ultra-skinny, I have a strong suspicion that when a lot of women hear “fat”, they include themselves while, in contrast, most men would not consider those women “fat”. Because I certainly will go along with the claim—that that men prefer non-fat but larger women—but that those women are pretty much just as much on men's radar as skinny women are. I think it's probably the case that it takes more weight to fall off most men's radars than most women think it does (or, alternatively for the women who are aware that men like such women, what magazines and BMIs and peer pressure among women may think of as “fat” is not at all a deterrence to most men's sexual interest).

Furthermore, even if there's a point at which a weight is reached where most men notice it and it reduces their initial, looks-only, interest—it's also the case, as someone mentioned, that men, like women, are attracted to people they like and getting to know someone can make a huge difference. And personality and everything else that is beyond just how much you weight. And a person can be beautiful and pretty heavy and they can be sexy and pretty heavy. There's a lot of variables.

Altogether, what this means—both the definitional problem which involves the fact that the strict definition of “overweight” is, at the lower end, not something most people (well, most men, anyway) recognize as “fat” and that most men are still interested in women whom they notice as being pretty overweight as long as there are other things to be interested in—that the whole notion that “you're not going to find anyone to go out with” is plain false. There's lots of opportunities. I still think that once you're heavy enough that men start to notice it you'll notice some decrease in opportunities. Because our social preference is toward the (far too) skinny end of the scale.

Now, having said all of that, I'd like to point out that some, many, or most peoples' tastes in what they find sexually attractive is not a choice. I've found that my sexual interest in a partner diminishes proportionately to their increasing weight. That's not my choice, I'd prefer it to be otherwise. And my sexual interest isn't very malleable by how much I love the person, contrary to many people's expectations. (I'll avoid a discussion of possible male/female difference in this regard.) That actually creates a problem for me because I'm not terribly sexually oriented anyway. That is to say, sexual attractiveness is not the first thing I look for in possible partners. I value other things more highly. And for that reason, I'm not that highly conscious of my level of sexual attractiveness. However, especially as a relationship matures and the initial sexual interest wanes, if I don't have a high sexual attraction to someone in the first place, it starts to show. And if she gains more weight, which seems to be a pattern for most people once they get in relationships—both male and female—then it really starts to show. I become quite a bit less interested.

A lot of people feel this is a moral act, and I understand why they would think this, but I don't feel like, for me anyway, it can be a moral act because it's not a chosen preference for me. And I've tried fighting it and changing it, and it hasn't worked. So, if at all possible, it's probably best for me to date skinnier people in the future. “Skinny” is still probably “fat” in some peoples' minds, though. But I've dated some women that were really overweight.

So. Somewhere in here is a compromise we can all live with. Except perhaps those folks who want to make being overweight into some high crime as if there's not a bazillion more important things in the world. But for the rest of us, I think the compromise, and what's true, is that there's not much, if anything, wrong with being overweight. It certainly doesn't deserve an adverse moral judgment. And it's not the hindrance in terms of attractiveness that some people think it is. And much of what many people think of as “fat” many other people don't see as “fat” at all! However, people are also entitled to having their sexual preferences, especially if those preferences aren't choices they've made. If you want to date skinny people, fine. If you want to date fat people, fine. If you want to date tall people (I'm not) or bald people (I am), that's fine. There's preferences that work against me, most of all of which are completely superficial, like height or baldness. But it doesn't bother me if women, or even most women, prefer tall men and men with a full head of hair. So what? I have other good qualities. It wouldn't be fair to all the other men in the world if I were tall and had long, lush hair, too. :)
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:53 PM on September 17, 2007

It is NOT okay to make fun of or discriminate against fat people.

I can't remember where, but I read something recently that fat is the last great prejudice.

It's not tolerant to make fun of racial differences, disabled people, or gay people... fat people is what's left.

The stereotypes I hate most are:

Fat people eat tons more than anyone else: Nope, I had a skinny boyfriend who out-ate me every day. We were both teenagers, and he could pack away 2 meals' worth of food in one, and eat long after I was full. Sure, there ARE fat people who can eat tons, but not every fat person does.

Fat people are lazy: Not so. I work hard. I was fat when I was working out at Curves, 3 times a week, for a year, too. Sure, there ARE fat people who are lazy, but not every fat person is.

Oh, by the way, embarrassing or shaming us doesn't work. It only makes us more embarrassed, ashamed, or depressed, which generally leads to more eating. And we are aware of our weight - again, acting like it makes us less valuable only makes it worse. If all the people who look down on fat people offered instead to help in some way (whether it be planning/cooking healthy meals, watching the kids so we have time to exercise, being an exercise buddy, or even just by being a friend), then MAYBE more fat people would lose weight.
posted by IndigoRain at 11:59 PM on September 17, 2007

”We were both teenagers, and he could pack away 2 meals' worth of food in one, and eat long after I was full.”

I was that guy. This probably won't last into middle-age. I think a lot of skinny guys gain weight, often unexpectedly, then.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:14 AM on September 18, 2007

Let's face it, being a judgmental cock is probably not that good for your health either.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:15 AM on September 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

So... who here thought Britney Spears looked better at her crappy VMA performance - not because she was in her undies, but because she wasn't a size -4?
posted by IndigoRain at 12:16 AM on September 18, 2007

I think she looked great, the problem was the outfit and the fact that she wasn't owning her sexiness as she has in the past (she was just sleepwalking). And I think knowing how to dress when you're not ideal height/weight is a significant issue that certainly has bearing on attractiveness. As is owning your body and loving it.
posted by Danila at 12:55 AM on September 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

I've been obese, and I've been overweight. Overweight wins.
posted by flabdablet at 4:35 AM on September 18, 2007

> Let's face it, being a judgmental cock is probably not that good for your health either.

But the fun is worth any little sacrifice like that.


> for most of human history ample avoirdupois was associated with the desireable characteristic of fertility,
> witness images of venus, aphrodite and earlier goddesses. fat chicks can get all the action they want
> if they can just figure out how to go back in time!

Or forward, possibly. After we get nailed by global warming or peak oil or any of the other repent-the-end-is-near scenarios folks enjoy so much and the hard times come back forever, everybody will be skinny little runts and wish they were fat. So there's really no reason to dither about the bulbousness problem now. Che sera and This Too Shall Pass.

Also: women proclaiming "Love me, I'll make great babies!" Woot!
posted by jfuller at 5:08 AM on September 18, 2007

I think overweight women are hot. The toned, athletic look doesn't even make it onto my radar for whatever reason.

In conclusion, the medical, social, and genetic consensus is that you're a whiny cockface and we're all grateful that you don't get to decide what's "ok" or not.
posted by cmonkey at 6:29 AM on September 18, 2007

jokeefe writes 'I like big butts and I cannot lie.'

The song goes:
"When a girl walks in with an itty, bitty waist, and a round thing in your face."

There's no line that goes:
"When a girl rolls in with a 55 inch waist, and a round thing in your face." or "Kentucky waist with the Oakland Booty."

The first would get me sprung, and make me pull up tough. The second and my springs are sagging and I'm definitely riding on by.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:49 AM on September 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

maybe 5' 8" and size 14 is above some magic BMI line of obesity, I don't know. But it is definitely not Fat-with-a-capital-F.

I have a strong suspicion that when a lot of women hear “fat”, they include themselves while, in contrast, most men would not consider those women “fat”.

Exactly. So who is the arbiter of what counts as "fat" or not? Not only is it a one-dimensional measure, we can't even agree on what it means.

What if all of you who agree with the sentiment expressed in this post conduct an intensive survey of images, measurements, weights, and dress sizes and make us all a nice simple graph, like the one on the back of the pantyhose package, so we can tell if we're "thin," "chunky," "zaftig," or "Fat-with-a-capital-F," according to your personal determination? Then you can also make a list of qualities that would render someone more attractive despite their fat level, such as facial appearance, waist-to-hip ratio, big boobs, etc. You could assign each of those a point value, and then deduct that point value from the fatness scale so that women could arrive at a specific quantifiable statement of their relative attractiveness. Then you could just ask people whose bodies would not be depicted as attractive on mainstream television or in print media advertising what their numbers are. That way you'd know whether or not you need to tell them to lose weight. We'd just go with your personal opinion about where the Fat Line is that makes weight loss necessary for a woman to be attractive....to you, and therefore by some magical extrapolation, to the average guy.

Is that a ridiculous idea? Absolutely, but what it's meant to illustrate is that when we start talking about what "fat" is or what "attractive" is, we get right back to where it all starts - personal taste.

For god's sake, have the balls to be attracted to what you're attracted to and not assert that it's all about percentage of body fat vs. lean tissue. We just saw a slew of comments from guys saying that their definition of "fat" was something idiosyncratic - it almost sounds that if they find a big woman attractive, she is by definition "not fat," whereas if she's not attractive, she's "fat." It's a fairly useless descriptor.

And I, for one, don't want to date or marry an average guy. I'm in it for the exceptional guy.
posted by Miko at 8:50 AM on September 18, 2007 [5 favorites]

I just want to know what larping is.
posted by CunningLinguist at 9:25 AM on September 18, 2007

On second thought, I probably don't, do I?
posted by CunningLinguist at 9:25 AM on September 18, 2007

four panels,

I didn't see the comment, but judging by past history, I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was deleted because you were being a dick again as opposed to making an insightful comment about the relationship between weight and health.
posted by chundo at 9:46 AM on September 18, 2007

Exactly. So who is the arbiter of what counts as "fat" or not? Not only is it a one-dimensional measure, we can't even agree on what it means.

Let the internet help you!!
posted by JanetLand at 9:55 AM on September 18, 2007

but what it's meant to illustrate is that when we start talking about what "fat" is or what "attractive" is, we get right back to where it all starts - personal taste.

yes and no: attractive is obviously a very subjective issue. fat, not so much. you're being disingenious here. let me give you an example: there's certainly a, let's say, grey area, where, I don't know, you might say that Hillary Clinton is not fat, somebody else might say she is -- it's debatable.

but, for example, Beth Ditto is fat, period. you cannot reasonably say she's not. then you can say she's sexy, she's awesome, whatever, but she is fat. period.
posted by matteo at 10:13 AM on September 18, 2007

“For god's sake, have the balls to be attracted to what you're attracted to and not assert that it's all about percentage of body fat vs. lean tissue.”

This raises the questions of whether or not people make value judgments about the fact that someone isn't attractive to them for reasons that are presumably voluntary (I'm going to assume that few people make negative value judgments about things which are voluntary, even though I know this isn't true...they do) and whether people who have been judged unattractive for either presumably voluntary or involuntary reasons feel that a negative value judgment has been made about them.

I'm not sure about the first question. Clearly, in the case of being overweight, some people make value judgments about people they don't find attractive for that reason. But possibly not because they find them unattractive and the negative value judgment is prior. But that may be a rationalization for some and their own preferences may have been, in fact, prior in their subconscious. I don't know. I'd like to think people would know better than to do this, but the fact that people do the same thing about involuntary traits leads me to believe that they'd be more likely to do so about voluntary traits.

I'm more certain about the latter question. People intuitively feel that a value judgment has been made against them when people find them unattractive. I also understand this intuitively, but I no longer think or feel this, myself. It seems obvious to me that some people are going to find me attractive and other people aren't, there's no one, single “right” way to look and be, and so why assume that people are thinking badly of me when they don't find me attractive? But I do think that some people in this thread very much react this way and that's why it's provocative for someone to say, as I do, that I prefer skinnier women even when I'm explicit about saying both that it's a involuntary preference and that I am not making a value judgment against non-skinny women. People still often feel insulted.

And that's why I always point out that I don't feel insulted if I hear women (or gay men, whoever) say that they don't find tall men or balding men attractive. Or, hell, disabled men. They are not discriminating against me by just having a sexual preference which doesn't include me. If they do other things which discriminate against me in ways that cannot be validly rationalized, then I'm insulted. But not on the mere basis of sexual attraction.

I'm not claiming that when I'm looking through online personals and 75% of the profiles say that they are looking for men taller than 5'7" it doesn't annoy me, because it does. But that's just a reaction to not being a possibility to someone that looks interesting to me. I'm not insulted, really. And I don't think badly of the person.

This raises the question, though, why exactly I think that sexual attraction is something that can be validly rationally defended as being exempt from a charge of unjust discrimination. But I think that it's a combination of two things. The first is that what people find sexually attractive is a complex and mysterious thing, not really voluntary at all. And the second part is that there is such a huge variety of judgments about sexual attractiveness that even if we eliminated those things which people are elsewhere discriminated against, we'd still be left with a whole bunch of things that aren't voluntary that people will find unattractive. How could we justify allowing that? And if we didn't, how could we possibly enforce a rationalized attraction social policy? It just seems quixotic to me.

That doesn't mean that there's nothing we can do. We can encourage people not to think negatively about a number of involuntary (or, for that matter, voluntary) traits so that to the degree to which judgments of sexual attractiveness are partly voluntary and/or socially constructed then, over time (but not realistically in individual people all at once!), discrimination against people on this basis in the form of sexual attraction will diminish.

And I feel like I embody that principle. I am realistic about what I find sexually attractive—I am aware that I largely cannot change it. And that's not a default assumption, it comes as the result of hard lessons learned. And it's not just about certain things like weight, it's also (in)famously about sexual orientation, too. What I find attractive is what I find attractive, apparently independent of my intellect and ideology. However, my intellect and ideology do differ from these preferences and I explicitly don't make value judgments and I explicitly, and prominently, argue against people who do. I do what I can to increase the level of tolerance and approval of these traits.

That's a combination of things that every person could do, if they so choose. One can be accepting of one's own apparently involuntary preferences regarding sexual attractiveness while, at the same time, fight against all other negative judgments on the basis of those characteristics. But that takes a certain degree of self-awareness and taking control of who one is, rather than merely rationalizing your inherent biases after-the-fact. I think that people have a hard time doing what I do because, for them, the conflict between what they cannot change in themselves and what they think should be changed, if they allowed themselves to think about it rationally, is too difficult. I am accepting of what I can't change about myself and work to change what I can. I'm pragmatic. Most people want the world, themselves, and other people to be simple and neat, not complex and messy.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:25 AM on September 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

No one has better MeTa flip-outs than four panels. We should make these a weekly event.
posted by EatTheWeek at 10:38 AM on September 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

maybe 5' 8" and size 14 is above some magic BMI line of obesity, I don't know. But it is definitely not Fat-with-a-capital-F.

I have a strong suspicion that when a lot of women hear “fat”, they include themselves while, in contrast, most men would not consider those women “fat”.

Exactly. So who is the arbiter of what counts as "fat" or not? Not only is it a one-dimensional measure, we can't even agree on what it means.

Yeah so that's my size and height, and my current weight is 205 goddammit, but it'll be down to 170 sooooooon, which makes me obese, and I don't know how helpful the object lesson is, if you think I'm being an attention whore, by all means, don't click, but here's me. Last week. No sucking it in or anything. I'm obese according to all the BMI charts. No, I do not agree. I think I'm regular-fat and in pretty good health. So not only do people range all over in their ideas of what's phat, what's fat, what's FAT and what's omghurfdurfpianoboxobesity fat!!, even the charted metrics are questionable.

We should focus on fit, instead.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:38 AM on September 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

Whatever you call it, I'd rather hang out with Ambrosia Voyeur than four panels.
posted by RussHy at 10:50 AM on September 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

Dude, everyone knows fat chicks are easy—why do you think black and hispanic guys like them so much?

we're easy because we're fat and we need men to fuck us to prove that we're pretty and likeable and loveable even though we're fat.

wait....

okay, partly that and partly i used to love getting plowed.

and i'm so fat i block out the sun.

too much for meta?
posted by misanthropicsarah at 10:55 AM on September 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

HAY GUYZ LET'S SING A SONG.
posted by jason's_planet at 10:56 AM on September 18, 2007

Nothing brings out the jackasses like a "fat" thread. For some reason these threads bring out the troglodytes like no other (except perhaps Canada-Quebec threads, but that's another matter).

I don't know why that is, but every time such a thread pops up on the radar screen a certain subclass of users shows up with no other purpose than to show a sort of extreme meanness by hurling insults and put-downs. I think that's profoundly sad, and it's the main reason why I don't even bother looking at these threads anymore. To a large extent this is also true of the Canada-Quebec threads, but with a different subject of course.

It all reminds me of how much some people's online experiences are purely based on passing bile against people they've never met and probably never will.
posted by clevershark at 11:13 AM on September 18, 2007

Man, fuck Quebec and their barely-below-average obesity rates. Yeah, that's right Quebec, average! Not special! Or distinct! Average! Just like everybody else!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:19 AM on September 18, 2007

Yeah. Nthing hanging out with Ambrosia Voyeur and not four panels.
posted by rtha at 11:20 AM on September 18, 2007

Cuz I'm a brick house and I'm lettin' you all hang out.

So climb in! *strains to lift a corpulent fold*
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:48 AM on September 18, 2007

I like telling people my BMI and seeing them not believe how high it is. Maybe I just wear it well.
posted by jb at 12:18 PM on September 18, 2007

Actually, checking out those charts, it seems that Ontario is pretty low for Canada, though near the national average. Probably Ontario and Quebec (being both high pop) sway the national average. Considering that both provinces are the most prosperous and urbanised provinces, maybe that means that the rural/urban split is much more inportant than any French/English one.

It'salso interesting to see the changing pattern in provinces - which ones are more likely to have more obese men or more obese women. In Ontario, men are slightly more likely to be obese; in Nova Scotia, women are much more likely to be obese than men.
posted by jb at 12:23 PM on September 18, 2007

We should focus on fit, instead.

Yes - A proper fit is crucial, although exceptional technique and stamina can make up for some... shortcomings.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:24 PM on September 18, 2007

Blame Canada!
posted by ericb at 12:57 PM on September 18, 2007

Yeah see, you don't appear fat to me in that pic ambro' voy, you merely got booty. Definitely not obese.
posted by Catfry at 1:01 PM on September 18, 2007

corpulent fold is a great band/blog/pantfish name
posted by quonsar at 1:19 PM on September 18, 2007

or porn movie

behind the corpulent fold
posted by quonsar at 1:20 PM on September 18, 2007

You people and your sensible, non-shrill discussions about Canada and its provinces! You're tearing asunder my expectations about what happens in web forums...
posted by clevershark at 1:21 PM on September 18, 2007

Thanks, AV.

And catfry, thanks for lending evidence to my point. "Fat" is in the eye of the beholder.
posted by Miko at 1:24 PM on September 18, 2007

It's okay to be fat. It's not okay to encourage fatness among the population for the sake of feel-good political correctness, as many of you are doing, just as it it's not okay to encourage anorexia for the sake of pop culture or give a free pass to the backwardness and bigotry of certain religions and cultures for the sake of tolerance.
posted by Krrrlson at 1:25 PM on September 18, 2007

I was a 10 pound baby and I have size 12 feet and large hands too, so it's butt as well as "big bones" that explain 205. People usually think I'm not only lighter than that, but strangely, taller. Must be the blood of Avalon. Or adamantium?

My point is, BMI charts don't account for lots of things, including chichis! I mean, if you're 5'4" and 130 but with DDDs, bingo, you're probably "obese" on the chart. Hmm. I think maybe DDDs no son chichis no mas.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:29 PM on September 18, 2007

Nothing brings out the jackasses like a "fat" thread.
Didn't you know? MetaTalk is a refuge for the normal, good looking, well-adjusted, and virtual-world socially superior! To be offended is to demonstrate weakness, and the weak are attacked here with many bad jokes. The lesson is, suck it up, don't be sensitive, or you're asking for it.
Just don't make fun of the retards. That is intolerable.
posted by ghastlyfop at 1:51 PM on September 18, 2007

It all reminds me of how much some people's online experiences are purely based on passing bile against people they've never met and probably never will.

The nerds have invaded the jock's table, with armor made of the internets.
posted by ghastlyfop at 1:56 PM on September 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

I agree with EB-I have no guilt about the fact that I'm completely unattracted to short skinny men because I know that a lot of people aren't attracted to me because I'm fat. And I am FAT. I'm a size 18/20 with DDDs and there's not any other way to phrase it-it is what it is. Fat as a word doesn't offend me any more than you calling me short or redhead or intelligent-it's purely an adjective, a word that only has the power that I give it. I'm not a "fat advocate" because I don't think I or anyone else that's overweight should need any advocacy. It's just who I am and I'm happy with that person. I didn't think that the OP (not four panels) was asking so much about how weight was impacting her dating life-she was asking how to become more comfortable with dating in general and gave some specifics. When it started to be repetitive with the "lose weight and your life will become all champagne and strawberries" that was when I spoke up to show that other women who think of themselves as "fat" are pursued, fall in love, get married and reproduce and not just with a certain subset or race of people.
posted by hollygoheavy at 2:51 PM on September 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

I come from a family of large people. we tend to have bellies. Even my grandfather, who was otherwise built like a bird, and was a world class sprinter in his youth. He swore to his death that he once beat Jesse Owens in a race. Not sure if that's true, but if he did, he did it with the same belly that I have now. I also have a nice set of love handles. Those I can not attribute to genetics. Those are purely due to my love of snack foods. Other than that, I won the genetic lottery. I have the legs of an adonis. I played pretty much every sport imaginable growing up, and still remain active. I can run until someone tells me to stop running. or until my trick knee gives out. I was a defensive lineman, we tend to have bad knees. I have never been sick a day in my life. Everytime I go to the doctor, i'm told that I am the picture of health but that I should probably lose some weight. To which I usually reply," if I am the picture of health, why should I lose weight? Why mess with a good thing?" If I'm at a bar, people usually assume I'm the bouncer. Women seem to have some sort of built in instinct to hug me on sight. It actually kind of bugs me. Buy me a drink first, y'know? put simply, I like being a big guy.

This isn't about me though, it's about my sister. She wasn't so lucky. We started with pretty much the same foundation. Great for a guy...not so great for a girl. Growing up, she tried, but eventually she gave up. It was easier to just be the fat girl, to just tune it all out and pretend not to care. It was a choice she made when she was way too young to make such a choice. The meaner people were, the bigger she got. And people were mean with a capital asshole-MEAN, Not just in a "kids can be cruel" kind of way. Downright sadistic. Adults when they weren't being actively rude, were mostly dismissive. My parents just wanted their little princess to be happy. As for me, I don't like it when people make my baby sister cry. I'm a fairly easygoing guy. It's one of the privileges of being a big man, people tend to leave you alone. Funny thing though, growing up, everyone knew that teasing my sister was a prelude to an ass kicking, and they still couldn't help themselves. I wasnt the type to beat up girls, and she got the worst abuse from other girls.

And that's what it was. It wasnt teasing, it wasn't social jockeying. It was abuse. Physical, verbal and mental abuse. I wouldn't wish some of the things my sister had to endure on anyone. I don't have to protect her anymore, but old habits die hard, and sometimes I'll be out at a bar or wherever, and some douchebag starts making comments about fat chicks, and I tend to snap. I'm smart enough not to get arrested for assault and I really do think fighting is wrong, but tossing drinks in people's faces tends to ruin everyone's fun. Sometimes a guy'll get feisty, and then I have to pay for broken chairs and stuff, which sucks. Which is why I'm glad there's an internet. So you douchebags who are just "telling the truth" despite not knowing fuck-all what you're talking about can have your playground, and I get to pretend like you don't really exist.

Which is what it comees down to. You may be just looking at words on a screen, but just try really really hard to remember that there are people out there on the other side of that screen. I think. Maybe not. Maybe it's all just a bunch of computers programmed to be assholes when prompted with the word "fat"

As for my sister, she toughened up as she got older. Like salty drill sargeant tough. She is without a doubt the meanest son of a bitch I've ever met. And I say that with the utmost respect and love. She is not to be trifled with, and definitely not the person you want to spout your idle fat-hatred around. She had gastric bypass surgery 5 years ago, and she goes to the gym every day, and now she's no longer the fat girl with a cute face. Now she's just the pretty girl with the sharp tongue who will make an adult cry in public for being a bigoted cunt.

Also, for the record, I like big women. I like thin women. I like in-between women. I REALLY like tall women. For some reason though, it's always little miss 5'2" 90-nothing pounds trying to climb the mountain. And despite all evidence to the contrary, I'm still afraid I'm gonna break the little ones. So I usually toss 'em back.
posted by billyfleetwood at 3:55 PM on September 18, 2007 [22 favorites]

It's not ok to be fast.
posted by timeistight at 4:00 PM on September 18, 2007

Ethereal Bligh:
I was that guy. This probably won't last into middle-age. I think a lot of skinny guys gain weight, often unexpectedly, then."
I was that guy too - it doesn't last past about 40, in my experience :-(

IndigoRain: "So... who here thought Britney Spears looked better at her crappy VMA performance - not because she was in her undies, but because she wasn't a size -4?"
Yeah, she looked like a real woman. I'm not sure that it was only because of the curves, though. I suspect that it was at least partly because she looked more like a drunk woman dancing to the jukebox at her local bar than a polished performer. Attractiveness is about more than the surface appearance of people, but includes the way they act. Also, a drunk woman in a bar is something that the "average" man can aspire to having some contact with, unlike a superstar.
posted by dg at 4:19 PM on September 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

"I'm a size 18/20 with DDDs"

So, how do you feel about polygamy?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:44 PM on September 18, 2007

Could four panels be a self-hating fattie?
posted by Jimbob at 4:56 PM on September 18, 2007

I was a 10 pound baby and I have size 12 feet and large hands too, so it's butt as well as "big bones" that explain 205. People usually think I'm not only lighter than that, but strangely, taller.

Heh. Me too, except a 12-pound baby. When I had an MRI last year for a disc problem, the techs, doctors, nurses, everybody had to come and have a look at the cross section of my spine, they were so freaked out. They all said they'd never seen anyone with a spine and spinal cord cavity (forget the correct term) as wide. My skeleton alone weighs as much as my wife's whole body, I reckon.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:12 PM on September 18, 2007

Hmmm... big chicken bones. You are a wonder, stav.
posted by wendell at 5:29 PM on September 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm a scrawny beanpole. Maybe I like big girls cos it's fun to bump up against abody different from mine. (also, here's another sexy big girl (SFW)) hubba hubba.
posted by jonmc at 5:47 PM on September 18, 2007

I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
posted by found missing at 5:59 PM on September 18, 2007

you fucking suck four panels
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:26 PM on September 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

"They all said they'd never seen anyone with a spine and spinal cord cavity"

You're sure they weren't looking at the rectum?

:P
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:31 PM on September 18, 2007

You're sure they weren't looking at the rectum?

There have been mornings after over the years where I have felt like I was crapping out my own spinal cord, so yeah, maybe.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:55 PM on September 18, 2007

Could four panels be a self-hating fattie?

vigorously tapping his foot in the grocery aisle?
posted by quonsar at 8:30 PM on September 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Awesome comments from some folks here. Thanks. These threads really do bring out the moron behavior, and it takes a special kind of nice to spend time responding to that garbage so thoughtfully and honestly. Thanks again.
posted by mediareport at 8:34 PM on September 18, 2007

242 comments and nobody seems to have a damn clue what fourpanel's metatalk post was in reference to! Is anybody besides me curious about what brought all this on?

Somebody link to the thread where his precious comment was deleted please!
posted by iamkimiam at 10:09 PM on September 19, 2007

I believe it was this thread.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 10:28 PM on September 19, 2007

...I'm fat, but not stereotypically fat, or stereotypically male, stereotypically white, stereotypically left-handed or stereotypically blonde (actually, light brown with grey, but when I was growing up I was very blonde - but not stereotypically)...
posted by wendell

Strange, I always imagined wendell as a short Asian man. Then again, I always thought TPS was a gay black man until about two months ago. Funny how these Internets work.
posted by slogger at 11:16 PM on September 19, 2007