Spelling and grammar guideline?

Ok, I'll create the queue for all posts and comments to go through TheOnlyCoolTim first. Thanks for volunteering to go over the 150 posts per day and 2,500 comments!

Come on, Matt. I think you're being a bit disingenuous if you really think that's what he's implying with this callout.

Of course the three administrators cannot moderate every comment and every post--though TheOnlyCoolTim does have a point: posts like this lower our level of discourse and generally encourage poor answers.

The solution, however, is not a callout, but to flag and move on. The system is already in place. In that way the administrators can narrow their attention down from those 2,500 posts, to the few that are getting flags.

And TheOnlyCoolTim is right, this does need a rewrite.
posted by dead_ at 9:19 AM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

I think all posts should be reasonably literate, and the post you linked to, TheOnlyCoolTim, is reasonably literatre, because it can be read with a reasonable amount of effort.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:19 AM on November 8, 2007 [7 favorites]

Well, at least we agree on one thing.

PLO CHOPS R DLISHOUS?!!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 9:20 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm glad someone's here to call people out on this stuff since Dame has been M.I.A. for like, the last 2 years.
posted by Afroblanco at 9:21 AM on November 8, 2007

People who can't type don't deserve our halp
posted by Razzle Bathbone at 9:21 AM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

I approve of this plan as long as anything using an apostrophe in possessive 'its' is automatically deleted.
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:22 AM on November 8, 2007 [3 favorites]

P.S. I call your bluff. Set that shit up, and I'll do it.

not what I want to see on my Metafilter.
posted by milarepa at 9:22 AM on November 8, 2007

Proposed guideline: if your MeTa post is a whingy, elitist rant that ironically ends with discuss as a one-word “sentence” , you should be forced to watch your mother be sodomized by a goat, Ron Paul, and your severed penis.

Maybe that's unrealistic, but I dare to dream.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:22 AM on November 8, 2007 [3 favorites]

Well, at least we agree on one thing.

PLO CHOPS R DLISHOUS?!!

No, SEND MOHR COPZ!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:22 AM on November 8, 2007

HighSchoolAngstFilter written in IM-speak. Awesome.
posted by chundo at 9:22 AM on November 8, 2007

Won't somebody think of the LOLCATS?!!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 9:22 AM on November 8, 2007

Easy solution: enable the TOCTM-queue, with a hook into Paypal.

...if it takes more than five minutes for a post to be approved or disapproved/edited, he pays $5.

Comments can take 15 minutes, and the penalty there should be only $1.

...if TOCTM refuses to give his credit card details, permaban.

Step up.
posted by aramaic at 9:24 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

EB: that is quite a daring dream, indeed. I require gallons of scotch to clear my head. Who's buying?
posted by crush-onastick at 9:25 AM on November 8, 2007

Isn't it funny? Can't it just be funny that among all of the interesting, complex, or stupid but semi-to-fully-literate questions, cathec's overlong text message to the hivemind made it through? And will receive compassionate answers that take time and effort to write? I think we're a ways away from being overrun with fourteen-year-old girls taking remedial English. Until such a time, the incongruity of the occasional appearance by the unable-to-form-grammatical-sentences in this otherwise hyper literate community is kind of pleasant.
posted by kosem at 9:26 AM on November 8, 2007 [7 favorites]

TheOnlyCoolTim does have a point: posts like this lower our level of discourse and generally encourage poor answers.

Posts like that encourage whiny Metatalk posts from pretentious internet-grammar nazis. Go and read the answers in that post. They're just as reasoned and thought-out as the answers in any other similar post. If you cannot bring yourself to read a post with (gasp!) all lower case letters, go read any one of the other 149 questions posted.

This is what I expect to see on Myspace or the Youtube comments section, not what I want to see on my Metafilter.

I think this sentence is missing some words and/or some punctuation. Discuss that.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:27 AM on November 8, 2007 [9 favorites]

I think we've been had. The cathec is clearly Paulsc's sockpuppet.
posted by Wilder at 9:27 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

While I agree, Matt, that there's certainly no place for an every-post-every-comment filter, jesus, that AskMe post is just awful -- seriously, if a big chunk of Metafilter posts started to emulate that style (or lack thereof), I'd find it hard to get past.

Agreed. One of the reasons why I love Mefi is that it's blessedly free of the chatspeak and grammar ignorance that plagues other communities. I like being on a site where people know about things like capitalization and complete sentences.

And if that makes me an elitist or perscriptivist, then so be it.
posted by Afroblanco at 9:28 AM on November 8, 2007 [6 favorites]

Where is the cut off line? Yeah that post was pretty bad, but at what point do you edit, delete, allow etc? Should LOLcatz be deleted (and yeah the grumpy answer is yes), how about posts with a few misspellings in them, stuff that links to pages that have bad grammar?

I understand what you are saying, again that was a pretty horrible post, but IF things are going to be deleted because of this metric it is probably best if it is exceedingly rare, on an individual basis and handled through flags and m/email.

Personally I would deleted all MetaTalk posts that end with "discuss".
posted by edgeways at 9:28 AM on November 8, 2007

This isn't a real issue yet. I agree that the post was a either a triumph of illiteracy or proves that somehow an automated text messenger become sentient.

However, putting a mechanism into place to control an issue that doesn't happen 99.73% of the time seems like a wasted effort. If self-policing quality control issues doesn't continue to work, I'll eat (shootsThis isn't a real issue yet. I agree that the post was a either a triumph of illiteracy and leaves) my hat.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:28 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

i cant beleiv he thought he culd rplace babby

sum babbys is just irreplacable
posted by Greg Nog at 9:28 AM on November 8, 2007 [4 favorites]

But there is no trend here. It's just one post that offended this guy's sensibilities of what his metafilter should be like.

Frankly, the $5 fee is quality control, and this one post aside, the site's quality control is better than anything else I've seen on the internet.

Mountains out of molehills. This guy just likes the attention.
posted by milarepa at 9:30 AM on November 8, 2007 [3 favorites]

i cant beleiv he thought he culd rplace babby
...in teh cornr

nobuddy rplaces babby in teh cornr
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 9:31 AM on November 8, 2007 [7 favorites]

argh -- damn cut and paste gremlin comes in and completely undercuts my argument. Last paragraph should read.

However, putting a mechanism into place to control an issue that doesn't happen 99.73% of the time seems like a wasted effort. If self-policing quality control issues doesn't continue to work, I'll eat (shoots and leaves) my hat.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:32 AM on November 8, 2007

Yeah, taking this post more seriously than it deserves, I agree that if this were a trend, a willingness by the admins to delete illiterate posts would be a Good Idea.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:33 AM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

1- what did your hat ever do to deserve that

-or-

2. "hey sailor, what's your hurry?"
posted by edgeways at 9:34 AM on November 8, 2007

I think quality control should be an issue here.

You know who else thought quality control should be an issue here?
posted by public at 9:35 AM on November 8, 2007

Anyone who isn't educated enough to spell should be baned.
posted by starman at 9:36 AM on November 8, 2007

What amazes me about this callout, TheOnlyCoolTim, is that you don't recognize the intensity and brilliance of cathee's writing-- or the density of it. She got so much real feeling and detail about the story into that question I'm kind of stunned; her writing makes Holden Caulfield look stilted and verbose.

It did make me really uncomfortable, but that was because she made herself so vulnerable to her boyfriend -- and to us.
posted by jamjam at 9:36 AM on November 8, 2007 [3 favorites]

If this gets best answer, it was worth it.
posted by chundo at 9:37 AM on November 8, 2007

It ticked me off, too.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 9:38 AM on November 8, 2007

I'll volunteer a rewrite:

I feel like my boyfriend thinks I can easily be replaced. How can I communicate with him about that?

- - -

My boyfriend and I have been together for around six months. We have never had a fight, and neither of us angers easily. But sometimes he does upset me, and I don't say anything about it because I find it hard to communicate my feelings. For example, we had a conversation last night about how people can be replaced. He said it's generally easy to replace people, like when an employee quits or is fired. I disagreed with him because I felt like he was saying (in essence) that I could easily be replaced in our relationship. I didn't express this feeling to him explicitly, but I did ask what he would do if I died. He said he would wait a year and then find someone else, which is a fair response but still made me feel insecure.

Am I overreacting to his statements about how people can easily be replaced? More generally, how can I communicate about these feelings with my boyfriend in a way that doesn't make me even more upset?

Actually, I like the original version better.
posted by brain_drain at 9:41 AM on November 8, 2007 [3 favorites]

Posts like that encourage whiny Metatalk posts from pretentious internet-grammar nazis.

All I'm suggesting is that we encourage a bit of thoughtfulness in our posts. If you want to call that being a pretentious grammar Nazi, it's your call.
posted by dead_ at 9:41 AM on November 8, 2007

las nit i was eati n potatoe chips in my bed and i felt liek i as haiving a hart atak does any one nowif I shuld go to the doctor only problem is i i spent alll my $ on 6 pnds of frozin pork and soc. sec $$ dont come for trrwo week yet
posted by killdevil at 9:41 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Actually if I see these posts early enough, I'll often delete them and email the OP and give them a chance to rewrite them and then undelete them. As it is, posts like that are an admin pain because people flag them, they're hard to understand and they engender a lot of comments that are just like "you can't spell" etc. In this case, there were a lot of thoughful answers by the time I saw it (I'm travelling, cortex has had a busy week at work) and so it seemed best to leave it so that the work people took trying to answer a badly phrased and presented question wasn't for naught. Generally, yes OnlyCoolTim I agree with you.
posted by jessamyn at 9:42 AM on November 8, 2007 [5 favorites]

That post is horrible. My eyes! The goggles do nothing!
posted by Riemann at 9:43 AM on November 8, 2007

I'm not talking about some fancy mechanism. I'm not talking about requiring formal grammar and perfect spelling or some sort of Metafilter Style Guide. Mods already eventually go over every post, as far as I know. They see if it is a double, self-promotion, chatfilter, or if it violates any of the other guidelines. I think this sort of rank illiteracy, that decreases the quality of Metafilter, should be one of those other guidelines. I'm not saying it's a big problem, but that doesn't mean we should consider it acceptable.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:47 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

i'd say something but TPS has saved the day.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:48 AM on November 8, 2007

Ah, Jessamyn's answer satisfies me.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:49 AM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

It bugged me. I flagged it out of irritation, knowing there wasn't really a rule being broken and nothing would happen.
Normally, such a combination of illiteracy and idiocy could be dealt with by a brisk mocking, but AskMe is supposed to be civil.

On preview, ah. Thanks Jess.
posted by CunningLinguist at 9:50 AM on November 8, 2007

I think we've been had.

That possibility had crossed my mind.
posted by timeistight at 9:51 AM on November 8, 2007

What a mess. Even the quotation marks were abbreviated. Wow.
posted by necessitas at 9:52 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

i tink quality ctrl be a issue hre

ok Ill make the queue for all posts and comments go thru onlycooltim 1st thx for volunteering to go over 150 posts/day and 2500 comms rofl lol ok thx bye
posted by WCityMike at 9:53 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

If you are deleting many questions of the quality of cathec's, Jessamyn, you are lowering the level of discourse in AskMe, not raising it.
posted by jamjam at 9:56 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

As far as I'm concerned, text-speak is just another dialect. I love dialects. I love them even more when I'm not completely fluent in them, which is the case here.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:57 AM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

And as such, I agree with jamjam.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:57 AM on November 8, 2007

public: You know who else thought quality control should be an issue here?

Nader?
posted by quin at 9:58 AM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

Force thou the spell cheque. Make every man speaketh in the Queen's English.

Et, en plus, nous ne supporterons plus des autres langes.
posted by blue_beetle at 9:59 AM on November 8, 2007

If you are deleting many questions of the quality of cathec's, Jessamyn, you are lowering the level of discourse in AskMe, not raising it.

Huh. I thought your first response was sarcasm. So I guess I'll respond to that one:

What amazes me about this callout, TheOnlyCoolTim, is that you don't recognize the intensity and brilliance of cathee's writing-- or the density of it.

Well, yeah, by definition when you remove letters, words and punctuation it becomes more dense. But this is verbal diarrhea, not brilliance. Raw, yes, intense, maybe, but never brilliant.
posted by chundo at 9:59 AM on November 8, 2007

If you are deleting many questions of the quality of cathec's, Jessamyn, you are lowering the level of discourse in AskMe, not raising it.

It happens maybe once every few months and as I said if I don't think I'll have time for a back and forth with the OP about it, the fallback solution is to do nothing and let it stand. The guidelines specifically say "Use spell check and write so that you can be understood." and that's our general expectation. We remove questions that make no sense as well, occasionally.
posted by jessamyn at 10:04 AM on November 8, 2007

Christ, quonsar. Matt, as a pony request, can we have a button we can click to simultaneously "favorite" and "flag as offensive?" You can just put it next to quonsar's comments. I think it'd save a lot of us a lot of clicking.
posted by koeselitz at 10:04 AM on November 8, 2007

"TheOnlyCoolTim"

I do not think this means what you think it means.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:10 AM on November 8, 2007

I think this sort of rank illiteracy...

I agree: Leave no Mefite behind.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:12 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Sounds like I got here a little too late, but as an FYI, the Television Without Pity forums - and probably some other forums - have similar guidelines in place. It's not elitist, it just makes things easier for everyone to read.

The way I see it, encouraging intelligent discussion in a written medium involves encouraging intelligent writing. Wanting to read something I can actually understand doesn't make me an elitist asshole.

I haven't been a member of Metafilter for long, but this doesn't seem like it's a huge or persistent issue. Which means you guys are doing pretty gr8!
posted by Metroid Baby at 10:12 AM on November 8, 2007 [3 favorites]

I found this ask.me written than most posts. If brain_drain's version had been the question posted I don't think it would have registered for me as a strong emotional issue. The original question by cathec is suffused with emotion. It's touching. If you can't see past matters of style you should have your reading license taken away from you. This is nothing but bullying. People who try to keep other people from communicating because they don't write idiomatically are no better than high school jocks who taunt and exclude fellow students who aren't good athletes.
posted by Kattullus at 10:12 AM on November 8, 2007 [5 favorites]

Mods already eventually go over every post, as far as I know.

I'm not sure what you mean, really; we don't have a formal "look at/QA every post" mechanism in place or anything, though we see most stuff incidentally and certainly anything that gets flagging action.

Aside from that, what Jess said, with my personal addition being that, fundamentally, there's nothing wrong with a post or comment with crappy spelling/grammar/style/whatever in isolation. There's no entrance exam, and people can be bad at the whole writing thing and still have every right to be here. The site collectively discourages it, but that's not the same as forbidding it and as Jess says it's a rare occasion besides where something is so much of a mess that we'll nix it on those grounds.

Whether they'll enjoy their time here, react positively or negatively to the feedback they get for their off style is another question entirely. But we've got some members in good standing here who don't drop sparkling, style-book English prose in their daily goings on the site; that they're participating in good faith is kind of what matters, and I'm glad to have them around. The average here is great, and that's what matters; one user here or there whose writing is on the low end of the curve in one respect or another doesn't break the system or ruin the site; and because the site is as strong on average as it is, there's a good chance that the folks who struggle with their communication will only benefit from hanging around.
posted by cortex at 10:15 AM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

but mr can you maybe listen there's

but mr can you maybe listen there's
me &
some people
and others please
don'tconfuse.Some
people

's future is toothsome like
(they got
pockets full may take a littl
e nibble now And then
bite)candy

others
fly,their;puLLing:bright
futures
against the deep sky in

May mine's tou
ching this crump
led cap mumble some
thing to oh no
body will
(can you give
a)listen to
who may

you

be
any
how?
down
to
smoking
found
Butts

e.e. cummings
posted by rtha at 10:16 AM on November 8, 2007 [7 favorites]

Come on, Matt. I think you're being a bit disingenuous if you really think that's what he's implying with this callout.

It's a snarky joke, if that wasn't clear enough. Sure I'd love it if people used descriptive tags, concise titles, and perfect spelling and grammar but another "can't we make everyone write better?" MetaTalk post made the snark rise up in me because no, there currently is no way to make everyone write better and not everyone will see this post and take it to heart.
posted by mathowie at 10:19 AM on November 8, 2007

I'n not saying that cathec is e.e. cummings. And on first read, her post made me wince. But she communicated her difficulties and question clearly and expressively. I wouldn't want to see all of AskMe look like that, certainly. But this one post should mean some sort of QA grammar/usage system should be put in place? Nah.
posted by rtha at 10:19 AM on November 8, 2007

You know, after reading this today, I started thinking about how a massive asteroid strike wouldn't be a terrible way for the world to end. I mean, it's sort of the eschatological equivalent of having a heart attack in your sleep - sudden, deadly, and not really the fault of anybody in particular. Everybody would suffer equally, and nobody would be able to say, "I was right."

Well, except for the people who tried to warn us about the asteroid strike. But they would be dead anyway, so I don't think it would matter.
posted by Afroblanco at 10:23 AM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

for
christ's sake, look
out where yr going
posted by Bernt Pancreas at 10:25 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

I think the earth should be wiped out by a giant thesaurus, open to the entry "apocalypse," just for the poetic irony of it.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:25 AM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

Outrage fatigue, volume twelve.
posted by GuyZero at 10:26 AM on November 8, 2007

STIKLURS YOONIGHT!
posted by cog_nate at 10:34 AM on November 8, 2007

If you can't see past matters of style you should have your reading license taken away from you. This is nothing but bullying. People who try to keep other people from communicating because they don't write idiomatically are no better than high school jocks who taunt and exclude fellow students who aren't good athletes.

I think you want the TurkeyOutrageFilter MeTa down the hall. Spellcheck knows no color or gender boundaries.
posted by jessamyn at 10:34 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Exactly, rtha, cathec reminds me of e. e. cummings; I was thinking of suggesting she try a little poetry, and that I thought it might come very naturally to her, but I don't know how to do things like that without being patronizing.
posted by jamjam at 10:36 AM on November 8, 2007

I don't want to make everyone write better on this site. It's mostly really hard and frustrating to try. I get paid for that shit; I won't do it for free. I want people who can't or won't write to go to one of the many, many other sites on the internet that cater to people who can't write. "Elitist" is not a four letter word (in fact, it has seven letters).
posted by Kwine at 10:39 AM on November 8, 2007

This is one of the few times I've disagreed with TPS, but being an elitist Nazi grammar police person myself, I think TOCT handled this much more delicately than some of the respondents to the OP did. Chat-speak is a pet peeve of mine already, and unless you are being charged for every letter you post, it simply isn't an acceptable alternative for a properly-worded, spell-checked and previewed post.

Also, thank you to brain_drain for providing me with a workable abbreviation for "dirtynumbangelboy'". I keep wanting to read it as "dirty dumb bagel boy" or something equally outrageous, but now I have DNAB to fall back on. I learn something worthwhile every day on MeFi.
posted by misha at 10:39 AM on November 8, 2007

That post really was one of the worst pieces of writing I've ever seen on MeFi. Fortunately most people here are at least competent writers.
posted by orange swan at 10:39 AM on November 8, 2007

I'm not sure what you mean, really; we don't have a formal "look at/QA every post" mechanism in place or anything, though we see most stuff incidentally and certainly anything that gets flagging action.

That was basically my impression - I'd be surprised if there are many posts some mod doesn't see incidentally.

As for E.E. Cummings, he, James Joyce, and so on get to play with the English language because they know what they are doing. There's a difference between poetry or Finnegans Wake and illiteracy.

re: Ambrosia Voyeur

The nick is a stupid joke that I've kept around from '97 or '98.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:44 AM on November 8, 2007

That was basically my impression - I'd be surprised if there are many posts some mod doesn't see incidentally.

Okay, agreed then. I was worried you were assuming there was a literal workflow that every post got subjected to or something.
posted by cortex at 10:46 AM on November 8, 2007

"I think quality control should be an issue here." is more difficult to understand than the AskMe.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:46 AM on November 8, 2007

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixing_Broken_Windows
posted by andoatnp at 10:54 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm sorry I use too many big words like "quality" and "issue."
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:54 AM on November 8, 2007

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought—
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
"And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
He chortled in his joy.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

posted by ericb at 10:55 AM on November 8, 2007

I'm sorry I use too many big words like "quality" and "issue."

It parses funny. Sensitive l'il elitist, ain't ya?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:58 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Wow, I laughed until my cheeks were wet reading that. My five-year old nephew's spelling is atrocious and I'd venture youth is a failing he shares with the asker. It's enlightening to read anyone's voice, though.

What makes me chuckle most is the thought that it's a beautiful hoax, an outside line, a sublimity of hooey. What a coup de troll that would be!
posted by breezeway at 11:02 AM on November 8, 2007

It's not elitist, it just makes things easier for everyone to read.

If we value ease of reading "for everyone" too much, shooting for the common denominator, we wind up meaninglessly mediocre, with no specialization or erudition, no dialect, no EASL posters and no lulz. So bizznoo to thizznat.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:03 AM on November 8, 2007

TOTC: sorry for handle teasing, I know well the feeling, as someone who doesn't actually peep at windows. But, softie I am, I think this difficult-to-enforce literacy benchmark-setting is uncool, so that's that.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:06 AM on November 8, 2007

in fact, it has seven letters

That just means it's worse, by three whole letters! Short words are proletariat words, suitable for use by the masses. Three letters good, four letters bad. Seven letters = death.

I don't know why you lumpenproles keep tempting fate like this. How many times do we have to tell you?
posted by aramaic at 11:06 AM on November 8, 2007

Everyone here keeps talking about "the OP's original question." I found seven:

ok so does he really think he can replace me entirely?

how can communicate how i feel?

he hardly ever gets mad and i hardly do ever either but when he does upset me i normally don't say anything about it im the type of person that finds it reeeeeal hard to talk about feelings does anyone else get that?

i want to get better at communicating how i feel but don't know where to start sometimes if im real upset i feel if i say anything i mite cry and i never like other ppl seeing me cry any suggestions?

from what ive told you do u think im making a big deal out of nothing?

i wish i had asked that question to set things straight that would stop me from over analysing things like i am now! so h ow can i be open, communicate better and learn how to talk about my feelings with out getting so upset?

if someone close to you said that you could easily be replaced would you be mad?

This is not a question that can be solved, even by the loose standards of relationshipfilter. It's a mess, even without the poor grammar. To quote an apropos MeTa from days past: Since when did AskMeta turn into HoldMe ComfortMe?
posted by googly at 11:06 AM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

I don't know, upon reading cathec's question for the umpteenth time, that I'd call her illiterate. She doesn't misspell anything (I'm not counting IM abbreviations like "ppl"), and she doesn't even use a damn grocer's apostrophe, which many many MeFites who know better (and I include myself) have used sometimes in haste and an inability to proof before hitting "post."

Honestly, except for the lack of capitalization and the abbreviations, it zips along beautifully. It's certainly more communicative and clear than some of the relationshipfilter questions we've seen that have ostensibly been written in standard English.

In fact, now I'm wondering if it isn't some elaborate experiment performed on us by an anthro/linguist/sociology grad student.
posted by rtha at 11:08 AM on November 8, 2007

Oh yeah - and TheOnlyCoolTim, I know that cummings and Joyce (and Stein and...etc.) get to break the rules because they know what the rules are, and that's part of what makes them great. But it doesn't mean that only rule-knowers can create something poetic, either.
posted by rtha at 11:10 AM on November 8, 2007

HOW U MAK BABBY
posted by sourwookie at 11:10 AM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

Actually, I like the original version better.

Proving that no post can be replaced!
posted by Chuckles at 11:11 AM on November 8, 2007

That AskMe read like Lady Sovereign wrote it. But it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve our help and respect... it's easy to feel superior to others, but isn't it more pleasant to feel HELPFUL and therefore RESPECTED for not trying to deride another person?
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 11:11 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Jessamyn, given the examples here and here, do you think it's fair for you to be judging the readability, grammar, punctuation and/or spelling of other people's posts?

As rtha notes, cathec's post seems to flow in a Color Purple sort of way.
posted by joaquim at 11:14 AM on November 8, 2007

Alvy

I can't understand how it parses funny. My writing parses a little awkwardly more often than I would like, but as far as I can tell "I think X should be Y" is a pretty simple sentence. Seriously, please explain. Does "quality control" not parse as a noun to most people? To me it does.

rtha

The thing is Metafilter is not the place for poetry. The internet is serious business! If this person can communicate so well, they ought to be able to stick some punctuation in there to avoid the impression of illiteracy.

To me, not being able to understand it is not the issue. The issue is that I think this lack of quality should be discouraged here.

Unicorn

Discouraging posts like this removes an opportunity for derision. You may not that I didn't post an answer saying "You are replaceable because you are dumb and only good for blowjobs," although from that level of writing it seems to me like the most likely correct answer.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 11:24 AM on November 8, 2007

Speculatin' on Alvy's behalf, I think the objection might be this:

"I think quality control should be an issue here" tells us that you think that it should be somehow considered in the context of the situation, but doesn't tell us a dang thing about what sort of consideration that should be, what agency, what anything.

It'd be like discussing a failed joke and saying that you "think that humor should be an issue here."

It's effectively a pretty damned vague statement, even if we can make reasonable guesses as to your intent. Is what I'm guessing Alvy was getting at.
posted by cortex at 11:30 AM on November 8, 2007

Use your adult words.
posted by ColdChef at 11:30 AM on November 8, 2007

P.S.S. please if you get a chanse put some flowrs on Algernon's grave in the bak yard.
posted by trip and a half at 11:33 AM on November 8, 2007 [6 favorites]

You are replaceable because you are dumb and only good for blowjobs," although from that level of writing it seems to me like the most likely correct answer.

Great. What a spectacular direction to go in. I now pledge my allegiance to whatever points you wish to make, as you are clearly a beneficent observer.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:34 AM on November 8, 2007

Won't somebody think of the LOLCATS?!!

Excellent point, IRFH. In fact, I think cathec may actually BE a lolcat.
posted by dersins at 11:40 AM on November 8, 2007 [4 favorites]

TheOnlyCoolTim, since you clearly stated that I may not, I'll take that option. After all, your grammar is clearly superior.

But I think it's fabulous that you don't factor in looks re: blowjobs, only intelligence! See, you're a great guy after all.

Group hug?
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 11:42 AM on November 8, 2007

It's not so much the "quality control" that irked me so much as the "should be an issue here."

IMO, "I think quality control should be an issue here," would better phrased as "I think quality control on the site should be more vigorously enforced," or "I think MetaFilter's lack of quality control is an issue that needs to be addressed," or "I think more stringent standards should be applied to posts on MetaFilter."

Mind you, I write pretty ass-backwards myself.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:47 AM on November 8, 2007

You don't speak for me, cortex!

Unless what you said was more articulate than what I was trying to say. Which it was. Bugger.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:51 AM on November 8, 2007

You may not that I didn't post an answer saying "You are replaceable because you are dumb and only good for blowjobs," although from that level of writing it seems to me like the most likely correct answer.

Protip: When critiquing someone's writing and declaring it unfit for this website, it's best not to make spelling errors yourself.
posted by euphorb at 11:55 AM on November 8, 2007

How about a "Do everyone a favor and don't compose posts in your phone" plea on the New Post page?
posted by Reggie Digest at 12:06 PM on November 8, 2007

Wow. OCT, if you really have time to be outraged over stuff like this maybe you need to volunteer somewhere. I'm sure there's an Adult Literacy program near you that would love the help.
posted by doctor_negative at 12:10 PM on November 8, 2007

jessamyn: I think you want the TurkeyOutrageFilter MeTa down the hall. Spellcheck knows no color or gender boundaries.

I didn't put my objection in terms of race, gender or class. What I do object to is a pile-on for something as trivial as punctuation. The analogy I used was that of high school jocks who look down on a fellow student because he's not athletic. Another analogy would be to a person speaking up at a meeting whose opinions were discounted for the shabbiness of his or her attire. There are many reasons for why a person would dress inappropriately or lack physical prowess, few if any of which warrant ostracization or abuse. The same goes for poor punctuation.
posted by Kattullus at 12:14 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Actual head line from my morning paper.

"Chiapas governor says it's unlikely those stilll missing probably are not alive."

Yes, three llls in still and that sentence structure is just a little funky and hard to figure. At least this lady is only a youngster posting her woes to meta.
posted by Iron Rat at 12:23 PM on November 8, 2007

Student's Right to Their Own Language. (pdf)

Background

Members of NCTE and its constituent group, the Conference on College Composition and Communication (CCCC), became concerned in the early 1970s about a tendency in American society to categorize nonstandard dialects as corrupt, inferior, or distorted forms of standard English, rather than as distinct linguistic systems, and the prejudicial labeling of students that resulted from this view. Be it therefore

Resolution

Resolved, that the National Council of Teachers of English affirm the students' right to their own language—to the dialect that expresses their family and community identity, the idiolect that expresses their unique personal identity;

that NCTE affirm the responsibility of all teachers of English to assist all students in the development of their ability to speak and write better whatever their dialects;

that NCTE affirm the responsibility of all teachers to provide opportunities for clear and cogent expression of ideas in writing, and to provide the opportunity for students to learn the conventions of what has been called written edited American English; and

that NCTE affirm strongly that teachers must have the experiences and training that will enable them to understand and respect diversity of dialects.

Be it further Resolved, that, to this end,

that NCTE make available to other professional organizations this resolution as well as suggestions for ways of dealing with linguistic variety, as expressed in the CCCC background statement on students' right to their own language; and

that NCTE promote classroom practices to expose students to the variety of dialects that comprise our multiregional, multiethnic, and multicultural society, so that they too will understand the nature of American English and come to respect all its dialects.

posted by exlotuseater at 12:28 PM on November 8, 2007

I share the concern expressed in TOCT's initial post, even if the tone isn't the greatest thing of all time, and am glad to see Jessamyn's response.

Oh, and Tim posted something to MetaTalk complaining about something on MetaFilter! *points, laughs*

That's standard procedure, right?
posted by ibmcginty at 12:31 PM on November 8, 2007

My comment is: Jesus, you people on metafilter are jaded*. I found that question pretty touching, and I really meant what I said in there; she was fucking eloquent. Part of me hopes she ditches that loser, although I guess I don't know that he's all bad; I just feel like she deserves better.

In any case, don't be a dick, Tim. I know cooler Tims, and they aren't assholes.

*see if you can catch the clever double meaning here
posted by koeselitz at 1:04 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Hey guys, it's Ethereal Bligh's birthday.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:05 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Happy birthday, EB, long may you post! :)
posted by Kattullus at 1:07 PM on November 8, 2007

By the way, a propos of nothing, ever since I read this askme, I can't get this out of my head:

I shall be released
Bob Dylan

They say everything can be replaced,
Yet every distance is not near.
So I remember ev'ry face
Of ev'ry man who put me here.

I see my light come shining
From the west unto the east.
Any day now, any day now,
I shall be released.

They say every man needs protection,
They say every man must fall.
Yet I swear I see my reflection
Some place so high above this wall.

I see my light come shining
From the west unto the east.
Any day now, any day now,
I shall be released.

Standing next to me in this lonely crowd,
Is a man who swears he's not to blame.
All day long I hear him shout so loud,
Crying out that he was framed.

I see my light come shining
From the west unto the east.
Any day now, any day now,
I shall be released.
posted by koeselitz at 1:25 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Happy birthday, EB, long may you post!

Long may you post??? You mean he's not posting long now?!??!

I kid!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:30 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

EB! Happy birthday!

*note to self: never cross a Scorpio.
**note to everyone else: Not that I believe in that stuff! Mostly!
posted by rtha at 1:34 PM on November 8, 2007

there's a good chance that the folks who struggle with their communication will only benefit from hanging around.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Instead of "you're dumb, go away" how about some insightful answers to her dilemma and some pointers to some of the great threads that illustrate what a good post looks like. Good citizens are made, not born.

Or maybe we need a Baby MeFite mentorship program for new members. Every new mwmber would be assigned to an older more experienced member who would show them the ropes, steal all their belongings, Get them hooked on dope, and then sell them on the yard for a carton of smokes.
posted by billyfleetwood at 1:39 PM on November 8, 2007

Happy Birthday, EB.
Can we find out cathec's birthday and give her a shift key?
posted by Cranberry at 1:45 PM on November 8, 2007

Happy Birthday, EB. Let's get a pint, eh?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:52 PM on November 8, 2007

Get them hooked on dope, and then sell them on the yard for a carton of smokes.

This strikes me as a rational solution that takes into consideration all of the many variables and arrives at an equitable result. I heartily endorse it.

We could even sidebar the current offerings.
posted by aramaic at 1:56 PM on November 8, 2007

All these posts ... and no puerile misogyny?

You guys are slacking.
posted by bhance at 2:00 PM on November 8, 2007

Thanks for the birthday wishes, all!
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:03 PM on November 8, 2007

i have to repost this classic poem by person unknown -

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea,
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight for it two say,
Weather eye and wring oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long,
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

To rite with care is quite a feet
Of witch won should bee proud,
And wee mussed dew the best wee can,
Sew flaw's are knot aloud.

Eye have run this poem threw it
Your sure reel glad two no,
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.
posted by pyramid termite at 2:03 PM on November 8, 2007 [4 favorites]

I like it, pyramid termite, but The Impotence of Proofreading is even funnier.
posted by dersins at 2:15 PM on November 8, 2007 [3 favorites]

Happy B-day, EB.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:31 PM on November 8, 2007

My comment in the original thread was made when I was very sleepy, and was deleted (rightly so, I should have waited for the MeTa thread).

I said that I didn't think that the question was real. And I am still not sure. It seems like a mocking sockpuppet question from someone who has a bone to pick with RelationshipFilter and/or LOLgrammar at large.

Considering the user hasn't had any other activity on the site, if they aren't a weird meta-joke, I think they probably just need to participate a bit more and get a feel for what it's like around here. But personally, I still feel like it's not a real question. /puts on tinfoil hat
posted by SassHat at 2:35 PM on November 8, 2007

Paging Clavdivs. There's nothing wrong with a little stylized language, as long as it's done stylishly.
posted by whir at 2:37 PM on November 8, 2007

ive been going out with ma boy

This is why text-speak drives me to distraction: both "my" and "ma" have two letters. What is the point of writing "ma" instead of "my"? You can't even blame it on the desire to be economical with letters. Why would someone go out of their way to change a two letter word? Also, does anyone even pronounce it "ma"?
posted by necessitas at 2:39 PM on November 8, 2007

Weirdest bit: cathec joined in July, a full 4 months before making this post. What is going on?
posted by Deathalicious at 2:40 PM on November 8, 2007

More people favorited cathec's post than have ever favorited any of mine, so he or she must be doing something right.
posted by sweetkid at 2:58 PM on November 8, 2007

Great. What a spectacular direction to go in. I now pledge my allegiance to whatever points you wish to make, as you are clearly a beneficent observer.

It's my cynical pessimistic asshole version of Occam's Razor. Call it Asshole's Razor. When I see someone on the internet writing like a careless dumb person, where all I can see is their writing, should I think that they're probably pretty dumb and careless (and just maybe their boyfriend probably only keeps them around for sex, not love, especially when he's said they can be replaced easily?) or should I think they're probably actually a wonderfully intelligent person who happens for some reason to write like a careless idiot?

I don't KNOW that she's vapid, but her writing is, and here on the internet that's all we have. If the post had been deleted for revision, like Jessamyn said would probably be done if she'd been around, then I wouldn't have had to think these mean thoughts and cathec wouldn't have embarrassed herself on the internet. High standards are good for everyone!

I'm also not outraged. The internet does not affect my emotions very much. Even when I make a typo in 'note'.

As for the thing about being like a jock making fun of the non-athletic: this is the internet. It's for writing, at least on this site, like the football team is for playing football. Are the football players supposed to let the 90-lb. weakling on the team and praise his football skills as he runs the wrong way down the field? Perhaps in this wonderfully standards free world where cathec's writing is emotional and moving rather than inducing what the kids these days call "lulz."

Also everyone who really likes that sort of writing needs to be reading more vapid & drama-filled Myspace and Livejournal accounts. Seriously, they've got treasure troves over there.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 2:58 PM on November 8, 2007 [3 favorites]

Also everyone who really likes that sort of writing needs to be reading more vapid & drama-filled Myspace and Livejournal accounts. Seriously, they've got treasure troves over there.

I read AskMeta because I like to read the questions people have, and the answers our members supply. I think it's interesting to read what people are interested in knowing. Occasionally, a post will be written in a less than perfect manner, for any number of reasons- the person is new to the internet and unaware of forum etiquette, English is not their native language, or they just don't give a shit. But I don't care because that's not the point- I don't read AskMeta because everything is grammatically perfect. I read it because I'm interested in what the people are writing about. It seems that you wouldn't care about this sort of post even if it were written in a proper manner, because you seem to think you're above reading that sort of "vapid" subject matter, so why do you care so much how this particular post was written? The more you drone on about your intellectual superiority, the more you embarrass yourself, not cathec (and not just because you keep exposing your own grammatical failures). Quit while you're... a "cynical pessimistic asshole".
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:13 PM on November 8, 2007 [7 favorites]

Why would someone go out of their way to change a two letter word? Also, does anyone even pronounce it "ma"?

Yes, to the second, which pretty much explains the first.
posted by cortex at 3:22 PM on November 8, 2007

Weirdest bit: cathec joined in July, a full 4 months before making this post. What is going on?

Dated guy for two months, things began to fade a little, and she thought, ooo, better have that Metafilter account ready to go for when the shit hits the fan!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:24 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Dated guy for two months, things began to fade a little, and she thought, ooo, better have that Metafilter account ready to go for when the shit hits the fan!

I don't know. If she had the capacity for forward-thinking, she would have purchased Hooked on Phonics at the same time.
posted by necessitas at 3:35 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

The writing is vapid. If it was written with the slightest amount of care I'd have read it with a moderate amount of interest. But the complete failure to correctly use English overshadows the content of the post. It's not less than perfect and it's not a case of ESL. It's atrocious. If people were to write like that all the time here we'd be Yahoo Answers. I'm not claiming vast intellectual superiority. I make mistakes all the time, though I still haven't figured out what's really wrong with the first quote you tried to pick.

This is what I expect to see on Myspace or the Youtube comments section, not what I want to see on my Metafilter.

There's an implied "it is" before the "not." I believe that's completely standard. Perhaps then it should be a semicolon but not a comma. Whatever small error may exist, the point is that I did not write:

dis is wut iexpect to see on myspace or the youtube comments section not wut I want to see on ma metafilter

I'll claim intellectual superiority over that, thank you.

If you think cathec isn't embarrassing herself by writing like that, especially in a forum where people are mostly literate, please stop kidding yourself. You seem to write in correct English for some reason.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 3:41 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

This thread reeks of snobbery. Let it go.
posted by wafaa at 3:48 PM on November 8, 2007

There's really no excuse for belittling people, sorry.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:51 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

guise cmon this is her 1st questoin like you never started out somewheres and had to lern the places way of working

like its cool 2b mean you know what i mean??? cuz its not........you shuold give a brake sumtimez.

THAT IS MY IMPRESSION OF YOU GUYS. C'mon, seriously, bring your A-game. "u kant spel" jokes are lamer than not being able to spell. Your joke fails to move me. Try harder. I mean, you ridicule cathec for not trying to spell when she writes, but you don't try to be funny when you joke. Where's the parity?
posted by Eideteker at 3:57 PM on November 8, 2007

I love it when a thread appears and grows into a monster, all while I'm sleeping.

1) One man's 'reasonable' is another man's I WILL STAB YOU IN THE EYE WITH A QUILL WHITTLED FROM BUDDHA'S SHINBONE.

2) Happy birthday, EB.

3) mathowie: not everyone will see this post and take it to heart. Since when was that a requirement for Metatalk threads? Some people will see it, some people might even use a little more care in their writing, mission accomplished. Other people won't care, or will get all het up that somebody actually has the temerity to call poop poop, as if everyone's special snowflakeyness will be jeopardized by it. Bah, I say: bah.

4) There may be no excuse for belittling people, but embiggening them can get you arrested in some places.

5) There is no 5.

6) Wait, yes there is: RAAAR I AM A VIKING
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:06 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Seriously, guys. I don't think the AskMe OP is going to be hanging around much longer. So why are y'all messed up about this?
posted by wafaa at 4:12 PM on November 8, 2007

A literal Viking?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:13 PM on November 8, 2007

And the "cathec can't spell" shit is just stupid.

"dis is wut iexpect to see on myspace or the youtube comments section not wut I want to see on ma metafilter"

Please.

She says "ma" for "my" - but only once. She uses some nonstandard IM-type abbreviations (nite, e.g.), and refuses to use punctuation or apostrophes.

But she correctly spells a ton of words that I've seen mispelled in youtube comments, myspace, and right here in Metafilter. In fact, except for the IM stuff, everything else ("conversation" "communicate" "value") is spelled correctly, including words that have IM equivalents, like "said" or "could".

If you want to criticize her lack of punctuation, go for it. No apostrophes? Right on. Lack of appropriate capitalization? Yeah!

But goddammit, her spelling's better than that of a whole lotta folks here who should (and do) know better.
posted by rtha at 4:18 PM on November 8, 2007

My GOD, Tim, you're being a dipshit. Run around outside for a while, talk to some babies, pet some puppies, and realize that, amazingly, grammar and typography, far from being a metric of intelligence, are actually a small game played by silly sots such as ourselves.

But wait-- here's a tremendous chance for you to learn this lesson! Just go back into the AskMe question you're kvetching so vehemently about, and note that it's a thoughtful, intelligent question. Above and beyond that, it's a caring question that reflects a real and honest consideration about the asker and the world around. It reflects more intelligence, that is to say, than your incessant whinging and prattling.

So fuck right off. Okay?
posted by koeselitz at 4:24 PM on November 8, 2007

Seriously, guys.

Fuck. I meant to write guise. Hopefully you know what I mean. Eidetker does.
posted by wafaa at 4:25 PM on November 8, 2007

the "cathec can't spell" shit is just stupid.

Would you settle for "cathec can't form a coherent sentence and writes like a half-witted, gibbering fourteen-year-old on crystal meth"?
posted by dersins at 4:27 PM on November 8, 2007

Bullshit, dersins. Sentences were all clearly formed, as were thoughts. They just weren't written out the way you silly fucks require.
posted by koeselitz at 4:29 PM on November 8, 2007

"At least "she" didn't "do" "this". (yeah, just try and tell me I'm wrong.)
posted by wafaa at 4:31 PM on November 8, 2007

The more I read that post the more convinced I am that cathec is not some myspace ninny with a 6th grade education.

These bits in particular make me think that someone's having us on, for whatever reason:

what i really should have said to him was

it really really hurt me [-]
made me feel like i was of little value to him

"Like I was of little value"? What illiterate internetista writes like that? And she writes "ma boy" and then - then! constructs "should have said" instead of "shoulda sed" or "shoulda tole him"?

She writes the way someone who knows the rules writes when they're writing the way they think someone who doesn't know the rules would write.

On preview: but her sentences aren't incoherent, and they're not gibbering. Her lines break where periods would go. She gives examples in a linear fashion. If you dropped in a few commas, periods, and maybe a semicolon (and some apostrophes), it really wouldn't need any rewriting.
posted by rtha at 4:36 PM on November 8, 2007

Eh, fuck this. Matt, can you just replace TheOnlyCoolTim, please? That'll make this much easier.
posted by koeselitz at 4:37 PM on November 8, 2007

I'm an elitist asshole.

The rest of the thread just exists to prove the initial self-assessment.

Who wants 2 talk like a adult anyway whatever!
posted by breezeway at 4:38 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Koeselitz, hot on the trail of the Grammar Nazis, failed to realize the Etiquette Nazis were rapidly gaining strength on the outskirts of Danzig...
posted by Neilopolis at 4:39 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

A website has never been improved by the presence of users who write like retarded teenagers.
posted by Afroblanco at 4:41 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Bullshit, dersins. Sentences were all clearly formed, as were thoughts.

Bullshit yourself, koeselitz. Just because it is possible to divine (with some work) what she was getting at, doesn't mean her sentences or thoughts were fully formed or coherent.

Perfect grammar is not a necessity (or, as you put it, something we "silly fucks require"), but it is a convention, one that is a courtesy to your readership so they don't have to work just to ascertain the basic meaning of the fucking question they're trying to do you a favor by answering.

I note that it's a convention to which you yourself adhere. If it's not important, why do you?
posted by dersins at 4:43 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

A website has never been improved by the presence of users who write like retarded teenagers.

Unless they're dead sexy, and post pics to prove it on their new, improved avatar-enabled profile pages.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:46 PM on November 8, 2007

No, wait, not even then. You're right.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:47 PM on November 8, 2007

rhta: Please note (look, I spelled that right now!) that I was careful in my selection of misspellings: wut, ma, dis. Not all the same, but in the same style of the post I was emulating. (My actual favorite: "what if a i died?". It's a me, a Mario!)

I also wouldn't be all that surprised if it was some weird troll.

koeselitz: It's the small game that makes up the basis of this site, which is writing. Also, fuck right off dipshit to you too, and a happy new year!
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 4:54 PM on November 8, 2007

Sorry, dersins. I snapped. But the elitism is too much sometimes -- that was a really great question.

dersins: "Bullshit yourself, koeselitz. Just because it is possible to divine (with some work) what she was getting at, doesn't mean her sentences or thoughts were fully formed or coherent."

Seriously, read the question over-- if you supply punctuation, every sentence is gramatically correct. Sure, it's missing the punctuation, but that's no sign of shoddy intelligence, only sloppiness borne of youth raised at the hands of our parents' generation.

It is a convention of courtesy, but I don't demand courtesy when I don't get it, and I don't always take it as an insult.
posted by koeselitz at 4:55 PM on November 8, 2007

Where the hell is languagehat, and why am I doing this all alone?
posted by koeselitz at 4:57 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

A website has never been improved by the presence of users who write like retarded teenagers.

That's pretty subjective. I, myself, am bumming on the suck that is most of the comments, but in a just-get-me-going-I love-it way. It's been that kind of day.
posted by wafaa at 4:58 PM on November 8, 2007

I guess what pisses me off is that there was no small eloquence in the question. And all of that is lost on a bunch of angry old men like us.

I think I'll go drink a few.
posted by koeselitz at 4:59 PM on November 8, 2007

stavrosthewonderchicken
Tell me you don't really look like your profile picture. It's a cartoon, right? Well?
posted by wafaa at 5:07 PM on November 8, 2007

The thing is Metafilter is not the place for poetry. The internet is serious business!

If you want it to be, sure. Seems boring to me, but it's your browser. Point it where you will. That's the beauty of the internet. TheOnlyCoolTim, the issue some people are having here isn't that you're concerned about readability. It's that you aren't:

To me, not being able to understand it is not the issue. The issue is that I think this lack of quality should be discouraged here.

You don't care if the post can be read, but you want to exclude the postings of people who write posts in non-standard English? That doesn't compute. Unless...

When I see someone on the internet writing like a careless dumb person, where all I can see is their writing, should I think that they're probably pretty dumb and careless (and just maybe their boyfriend probably only keeps them around for sex, not love, especially when he's said they can be replaced easily?)

I'll claim intellectual superiority over that, thank you.

You're heaping contempt on someone with poorer writing skills than yourself. Contempt accomplishes nothing, because it's dismissive. It helps no one improve their sentences because it equates bad grammar with shameful behavior or stupidity. It's very difficult to learn to do something better when you're told you sound stupid to begin with. Being asked to improve the quality of your text is very different, because it treats you as a capable person who just needs to work on something more, and perhaps your skills as well. What contempt does accomplish is making you look like an ass.

It's an AskMe. jessamyn's usual approach makes sense within that context. Occasionally a member needs to nudged toward a clearer post. The OP gets answers, and we can all understand the question. That said, Mugglenet and Whedonesque require clarity of language in posts, and they do it because the ability to understand is of concern to the site administrators. And while I would have no issue with such a policy here, it doesn't seem to be needed. These are edge cases.
posted by Tehanu at 5:08 PM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

Bad grammar makes TheOnlyCoolTim falafel.

Falafel! Ha ha ha!
posted by miss lynnster at 5:16 PM on November 8, 2007 [3 favorites]

Smart people talk out the side of their necks, too. Only they smart enough to deny they selling you a ticket they know you ready to punch. Rub it on your chest.

Pa'lante.
posted by breezeway at 5:16 PM on November 8, 2007

TheOnlyCoolTim: "The writing is vapid. If it was written with the slightest amount of care I'd have read it with a moderate amount of interest.
You obviously read it with enough interest to critique it for grammar, decide that it was lacking and did not meet your exacting standards, come over the MeTa and lovingly craft a perfectly-worded objection. I would consider that at least a moderate amount of interest.
posted by dg at 5:24 PM on November 8, 2007

Being asked to improve the quality of your text is very different, because it treats you as a capable person who just needs to work on something more, and perhaps your skills as well.

That's actually more or less what I was getting at originally, and what Jessamyn said would have probably happened had she not been travelling. With "being asked to improve the quality of your text" read as "deleted, and told to rewrite, because no one needs to see that shit until you write it properly."

In talking about comprehension, I believe that the ability to discern the content does not somehow make extremely low quality writing fine and dandy. I could figure out what people were saying if they wrote everything in Pig Latin, but I'm not going to start making all my FPPs in that style, because it would make this website suck. So does this no-punctuation no-capitalization AIM-speak.

Basically, I wholeheartedly agree with Afroblanco's "A website has never been improved by the presence of users who write like retarded teenagers."

Maybe it's elitism. But that's what makes this a better website than most. We're already elitist about self-promotion and double posts, and this keeps us above Digg.

Since Jessamyn's and Cortex's posts I've just been sticking around to argue on the internet, since that's the serious business it's for. (The internet is serious business is not serious business.)
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 5:28 PM on November 8, 2007

dg: The accusation I was answering was one that I considered the relationship subject matter too vapid for me or somesuch. That if it were properly written I would not have read it.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 5:30 PM on November 8, 2007

A website has never been improved by the presence of users who write like retarded teenagers.

Perhaps that's true, but what people forget here is that websites are rarely improved by elitist assholes, either.
posted by milarepa at 5:30 PM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

Bad grammar makes TheOnlyCoolTim falafel.

a meat grinder made my sheep falafel
posted by pyramid termite at 5:32 PM on November 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

A website has never been improved by the presence of users who write like retarded teenagers.

Perhaps that's true, but what people forget here is that websites are rarely improved by elitist assholes, either.

I wouldn't want the comments around here to sink to youtube level either, but I also don't want to have to submit an SAT score before being taken seriously.

And the people who get their panties in a knot about the occasional spelling or grammar era should keep in mind that many users are probably posting surreptitiously from work and maybe don't have the time to edit evey utterance as if it were the Magna Fucking Carta.
posted by jonmc at 5:36 PM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Spelling and grammar guideline? November 8, 2007 9:03 AM Subscribe

Spelling and grammar guideline?
November 8, 2007 9:03 AM Subscribe