Are some more worthy of respect than others?

February 17, 2008 12:30 PM

Well, I have been onsite five or ten minutes and already flagged two posts...can I say I am sick and tired of seeing gratuitous and profane rants against God and Christianity in general-especially since I know for a fact that kind of speech is not tolerated for other groups here?

I'm sorry. I try to be tolerant. I try to look the other way. I understand many of you have issues with either God or Christianity in some form or fashion. But I have had quite enough.

I hold some unpopular beliefs-beliefs that are part of my Christian belief system-and I have been prohibited-let me say that again, PROHIBITED-from even commenting on those subjects at metafilter on pain of being permabanned. This even though to the best of my knowledge I was never rude or hateful when discussing same. Okay, not my site, whatever. But apparently it is just fine and wonderful to trash my God, trash my brothers and sisters, and say whatever comes into one's head about MY subculture but if I dare to try to discuss or explain or point out where someone is misunderstanding or whatever...well, we all know where that goes.

I am under no illusion that this is going to change in the foreseeable future but I simply wanted to make it public record that I object. I did finally start flagging posts and will continue to do so. I ask any fairminded people out there to do the same.

Mind you I do not object if people make negative comments as long as they meet the same standards of respect for others as all other comments on Metafilter are supposed to meet. Freedom of speech, freedom of ideas, etc-I am all for that. That is why I am here. I think it is good to see other's points of view.

Okay, I have said my piece. Thank you for your consideration.

posted by konolia to etiquette/policy at 12:30 PM (656 comments total)

Oh, and I did not post examples because I don't want to single out anyone in particular. We all know it when we see it.
posted by konolia at 12:31 PM on February 17, 2008

We all know it when we see it.

No, we don't. It might be helpful to link to what you feel is unacceptable post and see if other people feel the same way as you.
posted by 23skidoo at 12:36 PM on February 17, 2008 [5 favorites]

Uh, well... no, actually, we don't. If we did, why would you need to post anything at all?

You will have to give specific examples if you want a discussion. Otherwise, this will go precisely nowhere.
posted by Malor at 12:38 PM on February 17, 2008

was it this?
posted by kuujjuarapik at 12:42 PM on February 17, 2008

well, we all know where that goes.

To second 23skidoo's comment: No, we don't. Can you be more specific?
posted by Greg Nog at 12:47 PM on February 17, 2008

I think God can probably hold his own.
posted by ODiV at 12:49 PM on February 17, 2008 [5 favorites]

Yeah, you're really going to want to actually provide some substantive information here.
posted by cashman at 12:50 PM on February 17, 2008

This even though to the best of my knowledge I was never rude or hateful when discussing same.

This may be a matter of perspective. The specifc issue that this was centered around was that you would show up in threads discussing homosexuality and gratuitously interject your opinion that gay people were sinning and/or sinners. This was unacceptable -- and I'd call it hateful personally but we don't need to debate the minutia of it -- and is why we made the decision that we did. I respect your beliefs but sometimes the proper place for them is not in a thread on a completely different topic. THAT said, I find that you showing up in threads on the site to say "I'm not allowed to talk about this" is at some level tantamount to tossing your opinion in there anyhow. You are welcome to flag what you want and we'll look at your flags the same as we look at the other ones.

And just to put my personal impressions out there in case it might be helpful. I don't have "issues" with your god or your religion, they are just not relevant to me in any particular way except as they affect the governance of my country and the traditions of my neighbors and loved ones. You might as well be talking about the Stanley Cup. I think you've been totally decent in the recent past discussing why traditions of your faith are important and relevant in certain situations -- I mostly see that in AskMe -- and I'm not sure what you're referring to and if you are even talking about AskMe. We usually remove angry ranting from both sides of that particular ideological divide over there. However, it's not at all appropriate to judge people's behavior from within the guidelines of your own faith when you're in a cross-cultural situation as you are here. This is not a Christian web site here and many of the people here are not Christians or even seekers.

People need to be generally respectful, sure. We've deleted plenty of puerile LOLXIANS threads here and defended those decisions. But if seeing people speak ill of Christianity or your conception of the divine here is going to make you go on a flagging spree, I have to say that without any specifics to go by, that may not have the effect you are looking for, and might have the opposite.
posted by jessamyn at 12:51 PM on February 17, 2008 [63 favorites]

I'm putting my hand in a sausage grinder. Please don't say anything that might hinder me or cause me to backslide into Non-Dermis-Wrapped Unbeliever territory. ok tks
posted by Bernt Pancreas at 12:52 PM on February 17, 2008

But if seeing people speak ill of Christianity or your conception of the divine here is going to make you go on a flagging spree, I have to say that without any specifics to go by, that may not have the effect you are looking for, and might have the opposite.

What's the opposite? Having the comments/posts sidebarred instead of deleted?
posted by grouse at 12:54 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

I hold some unpopular beliefs-beliefs that are part of my Christian belief system-and I have been prohibited-let me say that again, PROHIBITED-from even commenting on those subjects at metafilter on pain of being permabanned.

I'm surprised to hear that, I must say. Just to clarify: do you mean that mathowie has forbidden you from talking about your beliefs in general, or just the 'unpopular' ones? (I vaguely recall you making homophobic comments in the past - apologies if I'm thinking of someone else - which were beyond the pale, but a blanket ban on all matters Christian seems a bit extreme.)

As for the anti-Christian stuff, yeah, we need examples. I imagine there are hundreds of comments posted here in a given week that would be hugely offensive to a devout Christian, so it's hard to tell where you might be trying to draw a line...
posted by jack_mo at 12:56 PM on February 17, 2008

Well, here are the two I flagged: the second one is when I felt compelled to speak up. Again I am not pointing a finger at these two individuals as these sorts of comments are not uncommon and as far as I can tell tolerated by the site.


For the average Christian, there are too many children and too much tithing to be able to keep up appearances. The last part is most significant. Christianity began as an agrarian cult of seeded prosperity and rebirth, beginning with Osiris it seems. Fast forward to now, factoring in the invention of money, and the open secret to Christianity is it is a blatant form of idolatry. Not only do most believers pay money to a corrupt church to get blessings, and as a form of salvation insurance, but they even expect more in return, and so this fuels a dangerous mindset. Borrowing money is the direct result if one's outward display of wealth signifies God's blessing upon them. We would like to think they are struggling to pay their heating bills, but heat is not a luxury to them, and so we're often talking about being able to make the payments on a newer truck.
posted by Brian B. at 2:16 PM on February 17 [+] [Flagged]


Fuck that. You tell that guy's wife and four children that. "Awe shucks, I guess God just wasn't smiling on you. Maybe you shoulda' prayed more." Maybe if your fucking pedantic invisible man in the sky weren't such an asshole, we wouldn't need to have these conversations.posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:49 AM on February 17 [1 favorite +] [Flagged]
posted by konolia at 12:57 PM on February 17, 2008

Oop, should've previewed.
posted by jack_mo at 12:57 PM on February 17, 2008

trash my brothers and sisters

Christian doctrine teaches that all humanity is one's brothers and sisters, not merely believers. A little hyperbolic perhaps?
posted by nonmerci at 12:58 PM on February 17, 2008

I could live with tolerating comment one up there but comment two -well let's just say the thought could have been expressed in a better way and leave it at that.
posted by konolia at 1:00 PM on February 17, 2008

konolia, you're position is completely self-serving. You enthusiastically endorse some types of religious bigotry because it's "what you believe." You bemoan other sorts of religious bigotry (and even post FPPs about it) because it affects your personal life. Your willingness to interpret the scriptures along such self-serving lines indicates that you are not trustworthy. You are neither tolerant, nor particularly authoritative when it comes to these matters, you just have a bunch of things that you think God authorizes you to spew around. With your kind of attitude, and your penchant for thinly-veiled self-serving hate, you're probably not going to get satisfaction from seeing this discussed in any forum that doesn't agree with you about where all the your little hateful lines should be drawn.
posted by OmieWise at 1:01 PM on February 17, 2008 [56 favorites]

Christian doctrine teaches that all humanity is one's brothers and sisters, not merely believers. A little hyperbolic perhaps

Well, actually it does not. But this isn't the place to get into that in this thread.
posted by konolia at 1:01 PM on February 17, 2008

What's the opposite?

Well when we'd occasionally have users who seemed to have a hate-on for a certain topic (swearing for example) or a certain user and we'd see their flags we'd be more likely to think "Oh, that's that person going on a crusade about topicx/personx..." instead of "gee this is realy something we should take a look at. In AskMe, a single flag is enough to have something checked out, with the other parts of the sites we usually look for groupings of them in most cases unless things are really slow.

Generally, I'm just saying that a Meta thread or talking to the mods is probably a better way to deal with stuff like this than just flagging more.
posted by jessamyn at 1:01 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

If we allow theist viewpoints on the site I think we should also allow Civil_Disobedient the freedom of religion to express his dystheistic beliefs.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 1:03 PM on February 17, 2008

Omiewise, what I am saying is that this place is supposed to be a respectful place for all points of view and I am speaking up to say mine is not being respected. Remember all the long threads we have had recently regarding sexism? Mind you I am on the side of less moderated speech in general rather than more, but when it seems some views are more moderated than others, I don't agree.

Again, let me point out I don't really expect change but I did want to be heard and it at least acknowleged why I might feel that way.
posted by konolia at 1:04 PM on February 17, 2008

Turn the other cheek.
posted by jtron at 1:05 PM on February 17, 2008 [20 favorites]

Calling Christians "stupid" or "ignorant" is just, well...that. And it should be flagged, and it should be deleted as if the person were attacking any other religious group. But what I'd really like to say is this:

While I am on my soapbox...I am so sick of these fragile flower feminists Christians who get the vapors when a guy nonbeliever goes into boyzone Christian-bashing behavior. I respect myself. You should respect me, but if you don't, that's your problem, not mine.

The real world is filled with guys atheists who say incredibly stupid, hurtful and sexist anti-Christian things about women Christians in the aggregate. If I let that get to me, I'd be nothing but a shrieking harridan. I would much rather simply laugh and point at them, and go about my business. I don't like it when they stare at my butt denounce my faith, but I'm not going to have a nervous breakdown about it.

And I am certainly not going to take the "boyzone" LOLXTIAN stuff here seriously, as most of what is termed such is just humor and goofing around from people who aren't jerks at all. I mean, what is wrong with "sweater puppies" LOLXTIANS? I save my indignation for real problems.
posted by SassHat at 1:05 PM on February 17, 2008 [90 favorites]

what I am saying is that this place is supposed to be a respectful place for all points of view and I am speaking up to say mine is not being respected.

That's the error, I think. This place is supposed to be a respectful place for all people, but I don't think 'points of view' are to be respected, especially if they're wrong.

I've had my "point of view" disrespected a few times here, but that's just the nature of free speech and discussion.
posted by blenderfish at 1:09 PM on February 17, 2008 [8 favorites]

I could live with tolerating comment one up there but comment two -well let's just say the thought could have been expressed in a better way and leave it at that.

Comment two has already been deleted, so I guess there isn't much reason to go on here, is there?
posted by ssg at 1:09 PM on February 17, 2008

So... are you saying we can call them sweater puppies now, Sasshat? ;-)
posted by konolia at 1:10 PM on February 17, 2008

In practice, though, as someone who agrees with the metafilter majority most of the time, but disagrees some of the time, it kinda does suck to hold a minority opinion here.
posted by blenderfish at 1:10 PM on February 17, 2008 [6 favorites]

konolia, you should be impressed that Brian B. is actually listening to popular and respected uber-mega-Christian-superstar Joel Osteen, and not just working off of the HERFDERF LOLXTIANS model of commentary.

I tend to agree with his assessment of the status-driven Osteen Christians, where showing wealth signifies god's blessing. That they have chosen a philosophical path which pollutes their ability to make sound financial choices (leading them to payday lending, the topic of the post we're talking about) shouldn't preclude them from criticism of their behavior or their philosophy.
posted by peacecorn at 1:10 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

respectful place for all points of view and I am speaking up to say mine is not being respected.

You have this precisely wrong. You can speak up and say that Christians are not as represented in those comments. What you want to do instead, is to impose your viewpoint (in which you idea of the most powerful force in the universe should not be criticized) by censoring criticism of it. This is decidedly NOT equivalent to issues like sexism and racism, and that you think it is goes a long way toward explaining why you started a MetaTalk thread asking for the mods to censor speech on MeFi.

Also, what SassHat said.
posted by OmieWise at 1:11 PM on February 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

Hear Hear, Sasshat.
posted by Phire at 1:12 PM on February 17, 2008

what I am saying is that this place is supposed to be a respectful place for all points of view and I am speaking up to say mine is not being respected.

Cuts both ways, though, eh? 'Gay people are sinners' is a point of view that desrves no respect, so is 'Christians are morons'.
posted by jack_mo at 1:14 PM on February 17, 2008 [3 favorites]

Peacecorn, I kinda don't count many of the TV preachers as almost 99 percent of the time they bear no resemblance whatever to the kind of Christianity I know.

But yes, you are right, that other stuff is out there, and it galls me that that is what most people think of when they think of Christianity.
posted by konolia at 1:14 PM on February 17, 2008

No, Konolia, I believe you are. And since that is not a serious concern, I would posit that following your set of rules for feminists, this one is your personal cross to bear and not something we need concern ourselves with as a group.
posted by SassHat at 1:15 PM on February 17, 2008 [5 favorites]

I am so sick of these fragile flower feminists Christians

Um, yeah, I don't want to get too Foucaultian here, but the big difference here is about power.

1. whether we think that paying special attention to the way a particular group is treated is integral to maintaining the type of participation that we claim we are going for here
2. whether the general power dynamics of the culture we live within are skewed towards or against the particular group who is claiming that there is unfair/unequal treatment against them

But seriously, you want to have a slightly different nuanced version of that argument again? Have at it. We delete stupid sweater puppy shit and stupid LOLXIAN shit all the time.
posted by jessamyn at 1:15 PM on February 17, 2008 [10 favorites]

I have a problem with people dissing gays because the gays aren't doing anything wrong, usually, just trying to live their life while being gay. They get shit for just being gay, no matter what they're doing and that's wrong

I don't have a problem with people bashing Christianity (or any religion) when that Christianity is being used to put down other people for inane reasons.

Feed the poor, take care of the sick and help the helpless and quit fucking looking down your nose at others and maybe I'll have some sympathy. Otherwise suck it up.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:16 PM on February 17, 2008 [15 favorites]

Well, omiewise, tell me-isn't some speech on this site censored already? If it were up to me NONE of it at all would be censored, and y'all could say anything-but so could I.

It isn't that way here, so why can't I speak up, just like the other groups?
posted by konolia at 1:16 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

[oh I see you DID see that. my personal filter on thsi sort of thing is off today]
posted by jessamyn at 1:18 PM on February 17, 2008

(BTW thanks for the deletion of the one comment-Jessica, I assume that was you, so thanks-so I'm happy now. )
posted by konolia at 1:19 PM on February 17, 2008

The specifc issue that this was centered around was that you would show up in threads discussing homosexuality and gratuitously interject your opinion that gay people were sinning and/or sinners. This was unacceptable

I'm sorry, but if you're saying things like that and complaining about not being respected, well, that makes you a fucking hypocrite. 'Nuff said.
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 1:22 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

Konolia: both those comments are talking about ideas, not people. One is saying that the idea of tithing in a money-based society is a form of idolatry, and the other is saying that the Christians' idea of God is an abusive asshole.

That's not hate. That's talking about an idea. If you identify so closely with those ideas that you can't separate them from your own identity, well, that's your problem, not ours.
posted by Malor at 1:22 PM on February 17, 2008 [8 favorites]

Actually, I went to look at it and it was gone, so I'm assuming one of the fellas did it.
posted by jessamyn at 1:23 PM on February 17, 2008

so why can't I speak up

I don't know, why can't you speak up? Did Matt or Jess or Cortex say "You can't talk about this subect, EVER" ? If so, what's the story behind that?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:23 PM on February 17, 2008

Can't we at least give Jessamyn Sunday off?
posted by astruc at 1:23 PM on February 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

Matthew 6:5-6 and 14-15 are applicable here, I think, and also the big guy upstairs can probably take care of hisself.
posted by jtron at 1:24 PM on February 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

This comment? Still seems to be there.
posted by Tenuki at 1:25 PM on February 17, 2008

I'm not Christian, but I am fascinated by religion in general, and as much as I have disagreed with konolia on plenty points in the past, I think that the negative and intolerant attitude toward ALL religions really lowers the discourse here. The acid with which people choose to respond to anything that relates to religion never fails to disturb me, because it's obvious how much baggage people bring into those threads with them, causing them to behave very disrespectfully. It's boring, repetitive, and unattractive. It should be possible to discuss religion and spiritual ideas in appropriate threads without people showing up to flex their forebrains with quips equating faith in God with believing in MAGIC LOL.

I think konolia's presence and contributions are more valuable than many of these other people's, because they demonstrate the diversity of opinion that good conversations live and die by. And I resent that merely being open about one's Christianity, conservatism, paganism, et cetera, is enough to bait people into ridiculing individual members as a way of voicing their pent up regression toward a whole group of people. It takes a lot of restraint and tact to be someone with a minority viewpoint and still contribute.

What made me fall in love with MetaFilter is how challenging it was to constantly be exposed to things way outside of my expertise. I have learned and grown here, and my mind has become more flexible. Entering into such an environment inflexibly, uncharitably, counting on being able to emerge from it unmoved, unchanged, and unchallenged (but maybe having challenged, amused, or inspired others to your point of view) is boorish behavior and the sign of a lazy intellectual. Maybe a lot of people are just here for a laugh and a wank, and that's fine, but the atmosphere has grown incredibly polluted here in some ways, and it's reducing the site's range of interest and usefulness.
posted by hermitosis at 1:26 PM on February 17, 2008 [59 favorites]

Something somehing mote, something something plank.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:31 PM on February 17, 2008 [14 favorites]

Konolia, I don't normally theorize about the motivations of others, I have a hard enough time parsing my own. That said, for some reason, this lazy Sunday afternoon, I can't help but think that you are a little bored, and interested in stirring up the Metafilter community. For some reason, as you wrote your piece, I suspect that in your head you wondered, "How many people are going to respond to this? Can I get over 200 comments?"
I think you already knew that most people weren't going to take kindly to your argument, much less your tone. Are you looking for Christian martyr status? Not cool, girl.
posted by msali at 1:31 PM on February 17, 2008

Let me be Devil's Advocate to hermitosis:

Does the negative and intolerant attitude toward the belief that the plane wouldn't take off lower the discourse here?
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 1:34 PM on February 17, 2008 [5 favorites]

I'm not sure I agree with konolia here, but I think the insinuations that she is somehow being hypocritical are off-base.
posted by grouse at 1:35 PM on February 17, 2008

...it galls me that that is what most people think of when they think of Christianity.

Because if you don't realize that THAT kind of Christians have disproportionate power in the total Community of Christians AND American Society in general, then you are in a state of deeply defensive denial. The best thing you can do for Christianity in general is to not just disregard the False Prophets who call themselves Christians but to oppose them more strongly than us heathens.

And, cross-referencing your recent comment in the MeCha "GOPgle" thread, I never said "evil incarnate". I never say "evil incarnate".
posted by wendell at 1:35 PM on February 17, 2008 [4 favorites]

I see where you're coming from Konolia, but look at it this way. A burning fire may travel much more quickly than calm waters, but something beautiful will grow from the calm where a fiery rage is only going to destroy.

(Thank you. I'll be composing fortune cookies all week.)
posted by katillathehun at 1:36 PM on February 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

what I am saying is that this place is supposed to be a respectful place for all points of view

No, it's not, and I have no idea where you got that. MeFi is one of the least "respectful" places I know; sometimes that can be annoying, but on the whole it's an excellent thing.

Look, konolia, I've defended you more than once against the LOLXIANS squad, and I respect your right to hold your peculiar views. But you really have no business expecting either respect for your views in this crowd or license to spew venom about people who have quite enough other shit to deal with. (And no, your suffering as a Christian on an ungodly site is not even remotely comparable to what gays go through in a homophobic world, in case you're tempted to go there.) When you're not talking about religion and associated matters, you can be quite funny and charming. When you are, you come off as a bigoted ranter. If I were you, I'd avoid occasions to do the latter, but you want to embrace them. Martyr complex?
posted by languagehat at 1:37 PM on February 17, 2008 [9 favorites]

Well, I was a little bored, and recovering from flu, but also feeling a little cranky. And I don't feel like a martyr. (I have met people who have really suffered for their faith...being on Mefi ain't suffering. ) I just hit two comments that yanked my chain in a short period of time, is all.
posted by konolia at 1:37 PM on February 17, 2008

I think that the negative and intolerant attitude toward ALL religions really lowers the discourse here.

I do too, and I've said so frequently enough to bore even myself. But konolia's version of religion is a particularly nasty one; she shouldn't get a pass just because MeFi is hard on religion in general.

Are you looking for Christian martyr status? Not cool, girl.

I had not seen this when I made my "Martyr complex" remark, I swear!
posted by languagehat at 1:39 PM on February 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

Does the negative and intolerant attitude toward the belief that the plane wouldn't take off lower the discourse here?

Are you saying it won't?
posted by hermitosis at 1:42 PM on February 17, 2008

(OTOH if someone wants to make a Mefi Martyr tshirt, I bet it would sell.)
posted by konolia at 1:42 PM on February 17, 2008

MartyrFilter.
posted by wendell at 1:43 PM on February 17, 2008 [7 favorites]

In answer to the question in this threads title: "Yes."
posted by empath at 1:44 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

Speaking of unpopular views, is it still okay to write mindless bigoted crap about rich people?
posted by tkolar at 1:45 PM on February 17, 2008 [3 favorites]

On a linguistic note: Why do people use people's names (or screen names, in this case) more often when they are angry or annoyed at the person?
posted by By The Grace of God at 1:46 PM on February 17, 2008

Well, I was a little bored, and recovering from flu, but also feeling a little cranky.

So presumably it's all right for one of the mods to shut this thread now, then? Since you seem to be implicitly admitting that it was just your personal mood today that drove you to start this, and not really the substance of the issue or your argument?
posted by scody at 1:47 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

No, I still agree with the substance of the issue. I'm glad I spoke up. I don't feel like a doormat now.
posted by konolia at 1:49 PM on February 17, 2008

(Wendell, this might not be the thread to out me as an evil republican too....)

I never say "evil incarnate

Ha, you just did!
posted by konolia at 1:51 PM on February 17, 2008

I'm not sure I agree with konolia here, but I think the insinuations that she is somehow being hypocritical are off-base.

I'm sorry, but if you're spewing negative things about gays and wondering why your comments are getting flagged and why am I not being respected? What would you call that?

As for the original OP, it seems the comments that bothered you have been removed so what exactly is the problem here?

(Also, sorry if I sound really bitchy and rude about it but being raised by a lesbian this kind of thing REALLY bothers me , especially since I had such a loving wonderful upbringing.)
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 1:52 PM on February 17, 2008

Okay, folks, by the looks of the recent comments, she's snapping out of it, let's back off and give her some breathing room (but knowing this place, this is about the point where it usually gets worse).

And may I TRY to pre-empt an obvious bad snark by saying I'm proud nobody so far has made an "off her meds" comment. Full disclosure: I also have meds and moods and have made comments that I look at and they prompt me to check for missing pills
posted by wendell at 1:53 PM on February 17, 2008

Konolia, every time someone points out a Christian whose statements are positively ridiculous, you say they aren't a Christian as you understand the term. Something very similar happens when we start arguing over specific doctrines. Seriously, it's gotten old.

On a slightly different note: if we add up the Southern Baptists, the LCMS and the WELS, the PCA, and all those megachurch televangelical sects [etc etc], we end up with a pretty decent percentage of the US's Christian population. Over and over again we hear from reasonable, liberal Christians that "they aren't us, don't judge us by their beliefs and behaviors." At what percentage do we get to say, "well, actually, that is what a huge number of self-identified Christians believe, stop trying to pretend they are a tiny, fractional minority--that their beliefs aren't at all indicative of larger, if somewhat more submerged, trends"? Maybe this is just my bitter, "went to Lutheran schools for too damn long"-self talking, I dunno.
posted by hototogisu at 1:54 PM on February 17, 2008 [8 favorites]

I'm not sure I agree with konolia here, but I think the insinuations that she is somehow being hypocritical are off-base.

Maybe. I've tried to ask her (in all politeness and respect) here on this site and elsewhere several pointed questions about how Christianity denegrates gays in its Scripture, how this relates to other matters that seem contradictory, and I've gotten nothing but vague hemming and hawing.

There are other users here (one in particular who I dare not mention his name) who do this sort of thing to get people riled up unnecessarily.

At least in konolia's defense, she seems to do this more out of a sadly obedient sense of piety than in, what is to me worse, the pathetic desire to troll Metafilter's community with non sequitors, passive-aggressive personal attacks and thoughtless devil's advocatry.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:54 PM on February 17, 2008 [3 favorites]

If I hate your religion because your religion commands you to hate me, who suffers?

a) God, in dejection
b) me, in Hell
c) nobody

If you hate me because your religion commands you to hate me, who suffers?

a) me
b) others like me
c) you, when we try to put a stop to it
d) all of the above
posted by Sys Rq at 1:56 PM on February 17, 2008 [16 favorites]

As for the original OP, it seems the comments that bothered you have been removed so what exactly is the problem here?

I just went back there and apparently it is still there. Perhaps it was deleted then the deleter changed his mind? If it WAS deleted, then yes, there would be no problem.
posted by konolia at 1:56 PM on February 17, 2008

I am under no illusion that this is going to change in the foreseeable future but I simply wanted to make it public record that I object. I did finally start flagging posts and will continue to do so. I ask any fairminded people out there to do the same.

Fair enough. You've made it public record and people have heard you.
posted by tkolar at 1:58 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

Does the negative and intolerant attitude toward the belief that the plane wouldn't take off lower the discourse here?

Are you saying it won't?

I am saying that those who believed the plane wouldn't take off are wrong and their beliefs are met with intolerance.

Similarly, to judge from these numbers and a simplified, high-level view (neglecting schisms within the various groupings presented, neglecting possibly non-mutually exclusive beliefs), at a minimum 2/3 of the world's population are wrong in their religious beliefs.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 1:58 PM on February 17, 2008

Agreed, scody, I think we could all of us say a little non-committal amen to a vague urge to divinity at the end of this thread under those terms.
posted by DenOfSizer at 1:59 PM on February 17, 2008

What is the issue with Civil Disobedient's comment? We can't denigrate deities? Any deities, or only certain ones?
posted by Greg Nog at 2:00 PM on February 17, 2008

Okay, folks, by the looks of the recent comments, she's snapping out of it, let's back off and give her some breathing room (but knowing this place, this is about the point where it usually gets worse).
Point taken (and a good one at that). Sorry if I sounded snarky to you Konolia. It's difficult but it really must be realized that these are strong subjects that we are talking about here. It really brings up emotions at a base level because we're all talking about our belief system which is what we're made of. I will try to respect and understand your belief system IF and only if you will extend the same courtesy towards me. It's difficult to do but necessary for all of us to attempt to learn and grow (not to mention get along).
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 2:02 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

This gets so tiresome. Just because you woke up on the wrong side of the bed doesn't require you to use metafilter for a rant. You really should get your own blog (and use it).
posted by gtr at 2:03 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

If you think that was a rant you haven't been on Metafilter very long. I don't deserve to tie the shoelaces of some of the ranters round these parts.
posted by konolia at 2:06 PM on February 17, 2008 [4 favorites]

I R Christian.

That said, I've just come to expect a demeaning, derogatory or disrespectful posts towards anything concerning Christianity or God when I read posts that invite such commentary (I.E. anything having to do with religion or that might draw in religion as a topic). It isn't a reflection on Metafilter, but on at least a small minority of folks who post here. If what they're saying boils down to insult, I ignore it. If its at least based on some kind of rational thought, I might step in and offer my own words to counter. But I don't believe my identity as a Christian is under assault by such posts. I typically feel sorry for the people who make them, as often they seem to have a lot of anger behind them and such anger usually has a source.

Frankly put, and unfortunately, the Christians most visible to the public cast its followers in a reactive and harsh light. This is the Christianity that a lot of people develop antipathy towards and that builds walls that keep people from learning more about the Faith. So in reality, a lot of the LOLXtians comments are not just the product of one person, but of a Christian or Christians who helped reinforce the negativity of that view.

The best thing that we other Christians can do is to offer perspectives and viewpoints that build bridges, not barriers. There's a reason Christian missionaries generally don't try and preach when they go out to help people, because they hope their actions will speak for themselves. Thats always been my hope in my posts that concern my faith. Rather than be angry at dismissive or disrespectful posts, I simply try to show that the angry stereotype they're attacking is just that, an angry stereotype.

My apologies for the length of this ramble.
posted by Atreides at 2:07 PM on February 17, 2008 [22 favorites]

Konolia is pretty awesome, actually. She has been a real stand-up anti-racist in some pretty difficult situations. I suppose I've become accustomed to working with people who support some of my views and not others (lots of anti-war Muslim "moderates" who probably oppose homosexuality) and in my experience building links/dialogue with such people is far more effective and fruitful than making snarky remarks at them/shutting them down.

When one does have controversial views, it's very important strategically not to threaten the dominant view-holding group when expressing them, though.
posted by By The Grace of God at 2:09 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

Just adding a citation for anyone who might view Sasshat's comment early in the thread as harsh or dismissive and may not be aware of what prompted it.
posted by madamjujujive at 2:10 PM on February 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

I'm not sure I agree with konolia here, but I think the insinuations that she is somehow being hypocritical are off-base.

This is one of the real problems with the MeFi "memory hole"... I remember numerous occasions which I considered her posts to be extremely venomous and hateful toward gay people, but now can't point to any examples, because they've been removed.

So, yes, I think she's being hypocritical...she demands respect for abstract ideas, and posts Metas when her sacred beliefs are described in less-than-flattering terms.... but won't herself offer the same respect to actual people.

If being gay is a choice, choosing to be Christian most certainly is. Apparently, it's okay for her to claim that gays are sinners and will burn, but it's not okay for other people to say her ideas are medieval and strange.

From my perspective, she's standing atop the Ivory Tower of Hypocrisy with a fifty-foot megaphone.
posted by Malor at 2:11 PM on February 17, 2008 [13 favorites]

konolia, my sister:

That stuff bothers me, too. It seems to me that a lot of our fellow MeFites try awfully hard to be fair-minded to most points of view, but don't even bother when it comes to certain groups, and Christians are one of those groups. Otherwise discerning people spout the most ignorant and specious nonsense about Christian origins and beliefs. Otherwise gracious people assume that the worst Christian behavior they've encountered is standard operating procedure.

Now, you and I know better. We're insiders. We know that most preachers are borderline poor and knew going into seminary that riches didn't lie in their future. We know that church leaders are usually on the road to burn-out from dealing with a never-ending succession of hard-luck cases. We know all about the soup kitchens and homeless shelters and medical clinics that are staffed solely by volunteer Christians who are trying their best to emulate the one who came "not to be served, but to serve."

And we certainly know that "pedantic invisible sky-man" is the crudest caricature of the God we have encountered through deep engagement with the scriptures and the community of faith.

But here's the thing--Christianity in America got way off track. Not all of it, probably not even most. But the most visible part. Some grasped for power, even in the name of their Lord who willingly exchanged strength for weakness. Some sought to impose their will through legislation, even though Christ warned not to Lord it over people like the pagan rulers did. Some decided to gather up as much wealth as possible. They built mansions and tennis courts with money given to honor a homeless Lord who warned about storing up treasure on Earth.

Now, if you're like me, you know more Christians that reject that path than you do Christians who have gone along with it. But I can't deny that the public face of Christianity in the U.S.--I can't speak for other countries--is power-hungry and greedy in a way that is completely counter to the way of Christ.

The behaviors that our fellow MeFites so crudely rail against are, in general, the same things that caused Jesus to knock tables over and start castigating the hypocrites of his day. And even though it pains me some because they are painting with too broad a brush, in the end I think that recognizing greed and hypocrisy and standing against it honors Jesus more than it tarnishes him.

I would like it if the blasphemy were toned down a bit, but I think the way to get there is for the church in the Western world to renounce the temptations to be comfortable, powerful and impressive (the same three temptations Jesus rejected) and to be so obviously on the side of justice, mercy and love that our critics couldn't gain any traction. You remember the passage in 1 Peter that says:

Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened." But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

It starts with us. When the church is known more for humility than power, more for love than hate, and more for gentleness than anger, then non-Christians might start to be ashamed of the way they've been speaking about those selfless folks who seem to always have an open hand for those in need. But we aren't there right now, and I think that this is a moment in time when it's probably better for us to wince a little and really listen carefully to what the outsiders are saying. Sometimes it's a dagger, but often it's a mirror.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 2:13 PM on February 17, 2008 [164 favorites]

konolia writes "what I am saying is that this place is supposed to be a respectful place for all points of view"

I don't think it is. There isn't much in the way of fake "balance" here like you see other places where the guys sharpening razor blades with pyramids are given equal time as scientist saying pyramids don't do much of anything to razor blades. Opinions backed by hard fact are given more weight than those backed by faith.

languagehat writes "No, it's not, and I have no idea where you got that. MeFi is one of the least 'respectful' places I know; sometimes that can be annoying, but on the whole it's an excellent thing."

Exactly. Say something stupid, foolish or ignorant and MetaFites are going to call you on it.

konolia writes "Peacecorn, I kinda don't count many of the TV preachers as almost 99 percent of the time they bear no resemblance whatever to the kind of Christianity I know.

"But yes, you are right, that other stuff is out there, and it galls me that that is what most people think of when they think of Christianity."

Well there is no doubt Christianity has a serious brand identity problem but I'm not sure how Metafilter is supposed to fix that. Each one of these groups claims to have the one true way and self identifies as Christian. Those who don't have faith in one of the one true ways have little data with which to differentiate.

Also this isn't a Christianity thing, no religion gets a pass. It's just that MetaFilter is unfortunately quite US centric and Christianity is the NudgeNudge, WinkWink state religion down there. So postings touching on it come up fairly often in comparison to say Buddism or Sikhism.
posted by Mitheral at 2:16 PM on February 17, 2008 [4 favorites]

But we aren't there right now, and I think that this is a moment in time when it's probably better for us to wince a little and really listen carefully to what the outsiders are saying. Sometimes it's a dagger, but often it's a mirror.

That is actually a large part of why I am here. It's too easy to be insular and forget that how we see ourselves and how we are actually seen are all too often two different things.
posted by konolia at 2:16 PM on February 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

konolia, maybe if you spent more time reading your bible and less time courting controversy on MetaFilter, you wouldn't find yourself in such a snit. Start with 2nd Corinthians 6, maybe:

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Harsh medicine, maybe. But you'll thank me on Judgment Day.
posted by felix betachat at 2:18 PM on February 17, 2008 [4 favorites]

I'm sorry, but if you're spewing negative things about gays and wondering why your comments are getting flagged and why am I not being respected? What would you call that?

Hmmm, although Holy foxy moxie batman was responding to her past anti-gay comments, I was thinking more of the people who were bringing up her previous dismissal of a melodramatic callout and departure, of which this is neither.

But even focusing only on comments against homosexuals, I think it goes something like this:

1. Konolia repeatedly calls homosexuals sinners or worse. Others repeatedly call theists stupid.
2. She is called out, says she should be able to speak her mind on this.
3. The mods tell konolia not to discuss homosexuality at all, ever.
4. She then says that if that subject is banned, then can't we curtail the name-calling against theists?

To me, it looks like konolia is asking for what she thinks is a level playing field*, not that anti-theist comments should be banned and that anti-gay comments should be allowed, which would be hypocrisy.

She doesn't understand, perhaps, why these two types of comments are fundamentally different. But I think the response to that should be an explanation of why (as jessamyn has done) rather than calling it hypocrisy.

* For the avoidance of doubt, I am not arguing that this would be a level playing field.
posted by grouse at 2:19 PM on February 17, 2008

I'm glad I spoke up. I don't feel like a doormat now.

Right. So now that you feel all better -- not that that's actually what MeTa is here for, but never mind that for now -- there's no point to this thread being open.

I am under no illusion that this is going to change in the foreseeable future but I simply wanted to make it public record that I object. I did finally start flagging posts and will continue to do so.

So...since you admit that you don't think that your post would actually change anything, evidently you just wanted to announce that you have decided to utilize a feature on the site that was implemented ages ago for precisely the reasons you allude to? Well! That will certainly show...somebody!

In other words: you just wanted some attention. Well, mission accomplished.

On preview: konolia, you owe a big thank you to Pater Aletheias. He may have just redeemed your hornblowing, self-serving thread.

On second preview:
That is actually a large part of why I am here. It's too easy to be insular and forget that how we see ourselves and how we are actually seen are all too often two different things.

*sigh* No one is so blind as (s)he who will not see.
posted by scody at 2:19 PM on February 17, 2008 [8 favorites]

I just have to ask Konolia the simple question that really should have been asked to begin with. Who hasn't been offended on Metafilter? I get offended on a daily basis and I probably offend people on a daily basis and that's that. Another post begins and those people that offended you one post will probably stand behind your ideas on another. It's like death and taxes, it's inevitable. You will be pissed when you read Metafilter. Other times, you will laugh. No need to make a big thing out of it, it happens.
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 2:23 PM on February 17, 2008 [9 favorites]

As I learned the other day, there's nothing wrong with being bigoted against Christians, since they're the dominant majority in my country.

I hate Christians, and I wish they would all leave this site and never return! That felt good.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 2:25 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

I understand where Konolia is coming from. As the daughter and mother of people who hold their religious beliefs close to their hearts, and having a dear friend of 40+ years who can't help but informing them that their belief in a benevolent/vengeful ghost is the cause of all the world's problems, I have been walking this tightrope for a long time(some fun at holidays,etc).

Proselytising and LOLXTIAN animosity are verbal equilalents to me, more about the self satisfied spewer than those it is meant for, and not really discourse at all.
posted by readery at 2:31 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'll note that I support that when it's not a derail, konolia should be allowed to post her hateful comments about homosexuality.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 2:37 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

...to the best of my knowledge I was never rude or hateful...

For what it's worth, I've generally found your writing hateful and rude when I've read it in contentious threads. Not that you're alone there, but your name does leap to my mind first when I think of hateful text.
posted by Shutter at 2:40 PM on February 17, 2008

Christian doctrine teaches that all humanity is one's brothers and sisters, not merely believers. A little hyperbolic perhaps.

Well, actually it does not. But this isn't the place to get into that in this thread.

And that is, I think, about all that needs to be said about konolia.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:42 PM on February 17, 2008 [11 favorites]

In practice, though, as someone who agrees with the metafilter majority most of the time, but disagrees some of the time, it kinda does suck to hold a minority opinion here.

Some opinions are worthy of respect. Others are not. Of the latter, ones that are contrary to basic fact are especially odious and there is simply not the least need to accord them a speck of respect.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:45 PM on February 17, 2008 [3 favorites]

konolia, I wanted to say that even as someone who needles you about religion occasionally, I do actually sympathize. I was a fundamentalist of almost exactly the same vein you are (much of what you write could have come word-for-word from my mom) until I was 18, and I think I understand how the comments you've pointed out affect you. They really going beyond criticism or my occasional low-level jokey mean-spiritedness on into meaningless bile.

I'm not sure there's a good answer for you as a matter of principle, though. The particular brand of religion you and I used to share has hurt countless people over the past five centuries, and regardless of whether you care to admit it, continues to ascribe a sort of subhuman status to various people who do not at all deserve it. Unfairly, ignorant individuals use it as a justification for a lot of other - far more vicious - hatemongering that is expressly not part of your beliefs, but often appears that way to its victims.

This does not exactly inspire love in them.

While it may not be your fault, this mistaken belief that said out-and-out hatemongering represents you is something you are going to have to factor into your assessment of how people react to you (if you aren't already doing so, which only you would know about). It has and will continue to inspire enormous outrage, even if only a fraction of that outrage is actually justified.

I'm not sure what else to say, really, other than that I really respect you for toughing it out here even while being dead certain that you're wrong. I don't think your post will change the attitude of the site, but I understand your needing to get it off your chest.
posted by Ryvar at 2:52 PM on February 17, 2008 [6 favorites]

Proselytising and LOLXTIAN animosity are verbal equilalents to me, more about the self satisfied spewer than those it is meant for, and not really discourse at all.

Right. In this setting, the "man in the sky" comments are not about debate or even anger at Christianity. It's shooting from behind bulletproof glass. It's bullying by a majority against people who are a minority here.

I'd lump the abusive comments about Paris Hilton, Britney, etc into this category too. The feigned moral outrage is usually nothing but an excuse to pick on someone unpopular. The commenter feels "brave" enough to say whatever he wants, no matter how horrible, knowing that there's a mob standing behind him, ready to jump on anyone who disagrees.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:54 PM on February 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

I can see where konolia's coming from; I see this all the time with posts about Islam. The Charmin Burqa thread is a good example. For some reason, many Mefites equate Islam with "fundie Taliban burqa wearers", while my experience with Islam is so completely different. Islam also has a branding problem, but the differences are so vast across the world that all the misconceptions are way off-base - yet for some reason, Islam culture = Middle East culture.

I flag some of the more off-base comments, the ones that come out of deeply rooted racism more than anything else, but I'm often too scared to speak up because (a) I'd look like a hypocrite (I don't consider myself Muslim anymore for other reasons and (b) as hermitosis mentioned upthread, the anti-religious sentiment here is just way too strong.
posted by divabat at 2:54 PM on February 17, 2008 [5 favorites]

On a linguistic note: Why do people use people's names (or screen names, in this case) more often when they are angry or annoyed at the person?

It's a tactic to make them self-conscious, which tends to curtail bad behavior. Same thing that's at work here, I think (ignore the bad writing, this was the first cite I could find and it matches what I recall):

(Duval and Wickland study, 1972) -- Self-Awareness Theory -- When something draws attention to you, it increases your self-awareness and causes you to become aware of your shortcomings (discrepancies between what you are and what you would like to be).

Another study that had to do with self-awareness was done on little kids trick-or-treating... They left bowls of candy out on the porch with a sign that said "Take One." Of course, most of the kids took the whole bowl. Then they tried the same situation, but with a mirror behind the bowl so that the kids had to watch their own behavior--Most of the kids in that situation only took one! They found out that mirrors are a way to keep people honest, because they don't want to watch themselves behaving badly. That's also why department stores have those mirrors all over the store...to prevent shoplifting.

posted by ludwig_van at 2:56 PM on February 17, 2008 [11 favorites]

that said, anti-gay bigotry is absolutely wrong, and cloaking it in religion makes it even worse.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:56 PM on February 17, 2008

Some opinions are worthy of respect. Others are not. Of the latter, ones that are contrary to basic fact are especially odious and there is simply not the least need to accord them a speck of respect.

This is true, and pretty much what I stated a couple posts above the post you quoted.
However, in practice, when you disagree with the majority on metafilter, it gets very difficult to develop any kind of coherent argument, because for every post you make you have, you get eight people replying, many with misunderstandings, willful misinterpretations, false projections of your beliefs, or ad hominem attacks. If you stick around, you're spread hopelessly thin, but if you leave, you're thread shitting.

And "contrary to basic fact" is in the eye of the beholder, especially when discussing anything non-trivial about the humanities. I wouldn't even, for example, say that, on the whole, Christianity is "contrary to basic fact." I would say it is "unsupported by basic facts."
posted by blenderfish at 2:59 PM on February 17, 2008 [5 favorites]

Frankly put, and unfortunately, the Scientologists most visible to the public cast its followers in a reactive and harsh light. This is the Scientology that a lot of people develop antipathy towards and that builds walls that keep people from learning more about the Faith. So in reality, a lot of the LOLScientologist comments are not just the product of one person, but of a Scientologist or Scientologists who helped reinforce the negativity of that view.

----

I can see where konolia's coming from; I see this all the time with posts about Scientology. The Tom Cruise thread is a good example. For some reason, many Mefites equate Scientology with "fundie celebrity couch jumpers", while my experience with Scientology is so completely different.
posted by ludwig_van at 3:00 PM on February 17, 2008

OK, we've done gender, we've done race, I guess we were overdue for completing the trifecta.

I'll just say a couple of things. Even though I'm very strongly against some of konolia's moral positions, she's never been anything but decent to me personally. And her views on other issues (such as racism as BFTGOG mentioned) are downright standup and courageous. I've met my share of fundamentalists both the foaming at the mouth kind and the soft-soap megachurch kind as well) and most of them try to convert you within a few minutes of meeting you, like it's their way of saying 'hello.' konolia on the other hand has heard me graphically talk about my own unapologetic drunkenness, fornication, porn-loving, bisexuality, pot-smoking, gluttony, coke-snorting, thievery and countless other offenses that probably have me on the express train to hell and she hasn't so much as emailed me a tract, which I have to admit is a blessed anomaly. So there's that. And her fundamental decency on certain issues is kind of what makes her a compelling person to me. Plenty of people are homophobic and use religion as an excuse, but that dosen't seem to be where she's coming from. If Jesus came to her house and said 'konolia, gay people are A-OK!' I bet she'd breathe a sigh of relief, which is why I keep trying to point her towards people like Bruce Bawer who've managed to reconcile rejecting homophobia with maintaining their faith.And I will add that I'm not expecting any gay people who are directly in the path of the homophobia do the same. Let me worry about that.

Like a lot of people here, I find religious fundamentalism to be tiresome, restrictive and sometimes dangerous. But I could say the same thing about a lot of doctrinaire political ideologues of just about any stripe and for the same reason: they seem to have to run every little thing though the prism of their 'ism,' rather than make up their own minds and they seem to want everybody else to do the same. In short, they can't seem to deal with letting people find their own way. OTOH, like all these ideologies, there's a lot that's good in Christianity. Many pagans, skeptics and athiests I've known have read the Bible and will tell you that there's plenty of wisdom and poetry in it and I've been enriched by plenty of art, music and philosophy that's been directly inspired by Christianity, so I don't think the baby should get thrown out with the bathwater.

Lastly, there's plenty of people here who have legitamite gripes with right-wing fundies. So do I. Konolia is the most visible Christian on this site, so she bears the brunt of a lot of that anger, which I think is a little unfair since she seems to be a more complicted character than that.

Carry on.
posted by jonmc at 3:07 PM on February 17, 2008 [22 favorites]

Homophobes' opinions are no more worthy of respect than that of pedophiles or white-supremacists.
posted by signal at 3:09 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

IMHO, it's fine to diss gods and religions, but not fine to diss people. "Christianity is dangerous and/or stupid" is not even in the same league, ballpark or sport as "gays are sinners".

I haven't checked, but neither of those flagged posts is worthy of deletion.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 3:14 PM on February 17, 2008 [3 favorites]

I think, among other differences, that Scientology is not a faith, per se. Its leaders and founder wouldn't have kept it alive if they didn't make money. You can find parallels with the worldly Renaissance church, or to the modern televangelists, but that certainly wasn't the whole point, as I gather from Operation Clambake.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 3:16 PM on February 17, 2008

I don't understand the touchiness--if someone calls me a stupid, heathen buddhist, what's it to me? If someone calls the buddha a mythical impotent old man, what's it to me? I don't get why people are so touchy about what other's say about what they believe. I mean if there's some danger of actually being killed or disenfranchised for your beliefs, okay. But some weirdoes on the internet, who gives damn?
posted by milarepa at 3:18 PM on February 17, 2008 [10 favorites]

signal: Homophobes' opinions are no more worthy of respect than...

So, for example, if someone who has been widely accused of being bigoted against blacks, the obese, and women were to say to you "hey, I think I've discovered the mechanism by which organisms convey their traits to their young," you would tell him to fuck off?

Just a hypothetical example.
posted by blenderfish at 3:19 PM on February 17, 2008 [4 favorites]

Like a lot of people here, I find religious fundamentalism to be tiresome, restrictive and sometimes dangerous.

For you, it's sometimes dangerous. For me and mine, it is always dangerous. Always and everywhere.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:21 PM on February 17, 2008 [9 favorites]

Scientology is a very different beast from mainstream fundamentalist Christianity. The Bible makes very few *hard* claims that can be out-and-out flatly contradicted by our evidence at hand.

Scientology's basic religious text contains so many obvious and glaring factual fallacies to any person with the least bit of scientific education that it absolutely cannot be taken seriously as a system of belief.

Christianity passively discriminates against many types of people who are not believers. Scientology actively persecutes people who speak it out against it. They wrote the book on legal barratry.

Christianity asks for, but does not demand donations. The salvation they claim to offer is as expensive as you choose to make it. Scientology actively requires ten of thousands in donations from its members and destroys lives. They sell their religion.

I find little to like in the major religions, but Scientology as a system of belief lies in another realm entirely and deserves nothing but the purest contempt. It is not a matter of 'fundamentalism'. The core religion is broken.
posted by Ryvar at 3:21 PM on February 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

Homophobes' opinions are no more worthy of respect than that of pedophiles

To be fair, the latter do know which playgrounds are the coolest.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 3:27 PM on February 17, 2008 [9 favorites]

*Flags self, imposes time out*
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 3:28 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

For you, it's sometimes dangerous. For me and mine, it is always dangerous. Always and everywhere.

dnab, just for not hating you and yours (and for having joined in on occasion), to hardcore fundies, I'm as damned as you. So, that's a pointless exercise.
posted by jonmc at 3:30 PM on February 17, 2008

I don't understand the touchiness--if someone calls me a stupid, heathen buddhist, what's it to me? If someone calls the buddha a mythical impotent old man, what's it to me? I don't get why people are so touchy about what other's say about what they believe.

I could be way off here, but I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that no one likes to have their belief system poked at. I don't know of many people on Metafilter that are going to call buddha a mythical impotent old man, so I don't think you have to spend much of your time defending him on this website.

Christianity has many many holes in my opinion and it's based purely on faith. When you get a group of smart and savvy (like you mefites) together in one spot it's really easy to shoot down something based purely on faith with no science to back it up. That may be why so many people get touchy about it. I know how hard I've been on followers of this religion because I strongly detest it. I'm just one person and I try to keep it toned down. Think of all the people that don't tone it down.
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 3:33 PM on February 17, 2008

The Bible makes very few *hard* claims that can be out-and-out flatly contradicted by our evidence at hand.

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Wrong. Earth was created 10 billion years after the universe began as is presently understood.

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Wrong. There was no water when earth was created out of instellar dust obviously.

"Then God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Wrong. The earth could not have been created before the sun.

etc.
posted by dydecker at 3:34 PM on February 17, 2008 [5 favorites]

dnab, just for not hating you and yours (and for having joined in on occasion), to hardcore fundies, I'm as damned as you. So, that's a pointless exercise.

Indeed trying to decide who receives more ire from fundamentalists is irrelevant, but fundamentalism is always dangerous. For instance, to the children of fundamentalists.
posted by ludwig_van at 3:37 PM on February 17, 2008

I could be way off here, but I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that no one likes to have their belief system poked at.

Of course no one likes it, but I don't see why people get so touchy about it.
posted by milarepa at 3:40 PM on February 17, 2008

That's beside the point, ludwig_van, I was more irked about dnab's 'I'm the most persecuted, therefore anyone else's ideas are to be dismissed' which is a nice instance of proving that being holier-than-thou is not rectricted to the religious.
posted by jonmc at 3:41 PM on February 17, 2008

Of course no one likes it, but I don't see why people get so touchy about it.

What I said in the rest of that statement maybe?
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 3:43 PM on February 17, 2008

Of course no one likes it, but I don't see why people get so touchy about it.

Because some people are so invested in not just the message but the system built around the message, that any tiny nudge to change one's belief becomes a scary overhaul of their entire life.

I'm not explaining well.

Let's see. Okay, it's one thing to casually say you believe in God, maybe sometimes make Sunday service if you don't over sleep and go to holiday mass. Someone else coming in and saying, "Your God sucks," isn't going to be a tremendous blow because God is not tremendous to you. But to a person who lives and breathes God, who celebrates everyday in meaningful ways, and embraces the teaching as a lifestyle guide, then someone knocking that belief is a more powerful blow. The disrespect has more impact because you're calling into question their very foundation.

But whatever. I have no tears for someone who asks for respect given to her belief and way of life who can't and won't give it to someone else for theirs. Sinner, indeed.
posted by FunkyHelix at 3:50 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

I was more irked about dnab's 'I'm the most persecuted, therefore anyone else's ideas are to be dismissed' which is a nice instance of proving that being holier-than-thou is not rectricted to the religious.

What the hell, jonmc? That's not what he was saying at all, he was saying that as a gay man he feels particularly threatened by fundamentalist religion. Shouldn't he? Or shouldn't he say so, for fear of offending people?

From a wonderful novel I'm reading (jonmc, I think you'd like it), The Book of Ebenezer Le Page: "As I have said before, I don't like people who preach. They put themselves on a pedestal and make out what they say is according to the Will of God and what anybody else think different is of the Devil. I like a chap who say straight out what he think at the moment, and don't care a bugger if he is right or wrong."
posted by languagehat at 3:54 PM on February 17, 2008 [3 favorites]

And I will add that I'm not expecting any gay people who are directly in the path of the homophobia do the same. Let me worry about that.

Damn, jonmc. Thank you.
posted by rtha at 3:57 PM on February 17, 2008

dydecker: in all those things, there is significant wiggle-room - ie, the Big Bang was God's method of creating the universe. The specific wording of the Bible leaves it open to a LOT of similar rationalizations that cannot be 100% disproven.

Scientology makes hard, disprovable assertions - the first one that leaps to mind is that the basic age of the universe they claim (trillions of years) is flatly contradicted by cosmic microwave background radiation.
posted by Ryvar at 3:57 PM on February 17, 2008

What the hell, jonmc? That's not what he was saying at all, he was saying that as a gay man he feels particularly threatened by fundamentalist religion. Shouldn't he?

You'll notice that he said it in response to me saying that I felt threatened by it, too. He basically said 'I feel even more threatened!' When did it become a contest? and does his feeling threatened make hing threatened make him any less full of shit anybody else (including you and me)?

I like a chap who say straight out what he think at the moment, and don't care a bugger if he is right or wrong.

Amen. dnab did just that and I'm doing the same.
posted by jonmc at 4:01 PM on February 17, 2008

dydecker: in all those things, there is significant wiggle-room - ie, the Big Bang was God's method of creating the universe. The specific wording of the Bible leaves it open to a LOT of similar rationalizations that cannot be 100% disproven.

OK, I will admit. I was raised in a religion free household. However, I have been told by many christians that you must take the bible in a literal sense. You aren't really supposed to interpret the bible to fit your life. I'm not attacking you, I'm really just wondering if saying there is a lot of wiggle-room in the bible isn't a cop out.
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 4:02 PM on February 17, 2008

that was only the first 3 lines! I didn't get to the living to 936 year old bits even
posted by dydecker at 4:04 PM on February 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

Holy foxy moxie batman!:

Before I became an atheist, I HEAVILY plumbed the depths of 'Creation Science' - it is breathtaking, in a sad sort of way, how adroit they are at conjuring explanations that leave a tiny window open for Biblical literalism.

God created the Heavens and the Earth? Sure, but it doesn't say HOW he did it. Could have been the Big Bang.

God created everything in 7 days? Sure, but how does an omnitemporal God measure time? Nowhere in Genesis does it say when God created time, so we have no authority to say that time has always been consistent.

etc. etc. ad nauseum. There are a few exceptions, but *generally speaking* much of the Bible can be rationalized on a word-for-word basis, if one is willing to grant an overabundance of benefit of the doubt. It's one of the reasons the religion persists even amongst very smart people.
posted by Ryvar at 4:10 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

Damn, jonmc. Thank you.

you're welcome. and what I ultimately meant was that the whole process of changing prejudices is a multi-pronged thing. Yes, we obviously have to change all the legalities and call out bigotry for what it is. But that's only part of the battle. We can make all the laws and yell 'that's bigoted!' all we want, but until we actually figure out how bigotry happens and look at how bigoted people get that way, all we'll have is a politely ordered society of people who hate and fear eachother.

Malcolm X once said something along the lines of "the best thing white people can do to fight racism is to go into their own communities and try and change the modes of thinking there." Well, I'm in a position to do just that and I'm trying. And when dealing with a casual bigot (and yes, konolia, I just called you a bigot, don't take it personally, I still like you and I've rarely met anyone 100% free of bigotry of some sort, including myself), I've found that a 'c'mon, you know better than that...' approach is more effective that finger-pointing accusations. Although, I definitely agree with the anger behind the accusation.
posted by jonmc at 4:12 PM on February 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

dydecker: Sure, but if there is a God (which cannot be disproven), isn't he free to interfere with aging?

There's actually this massive pile of bullshit built up around the idea that the cause for Noah's flood was some huge 'water vapor canopy' which blocked UV and thus helped reduce aging.

. . . Goddamn. Fuck you for making me remember all this crap.
posted by Ryvar at 4:13 PM on February 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

If you think that was a rant you haven't been on Metafilter very long. I don't deserve to tie the shoelaces of some of the ranters round these parts.
posted by konolia

Correct. Your rants are tedious, repetitive, hypocritical nonsense. Which is why, as I said before, they belong on your blog.
posted by gtr at 4:14 PM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]