When is Enough Enough?

February 19, 2008 7:21 PM

Should I have learned a lesson from this?

I posted this with no political agenda whatsoever, and it seemed to take on a lively little life of its own. I am fairly surprised it didn't get deleted when it started going off the rails. I'm just wondering if this is an example of an unintentioned, yet good place for folks to vent political, or the MeFi equivalent of tossing a stink bomb and running away.

posted by timsteil to etiquette/policy at 7:21 PM (42 comments total)

Political threads are a good thing. They keep the political arguments from coming up in threads where they are completely inappropriate.
posted by tkolar at 7:30 PM on February 19, 2008 [5 favorites]

Are you trying to expand the number of places for MeFites to argue about politics by making a new thread, here, timsteil? I can't understand your question. And I'm not sure if I believe you when you say you had no political agenda, either, given the subject matter and topicality and NewsFilter quality of the links, but whatever.
posted by cgc373 at 7:35 PM on February 19, 2008

Some politic is healthy, too much politic is destructive, but no politic is denial.
posted by R. Mutt at 7:44 PM on February 19, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm with tkolar on this. I am not sure what you were expecting when you posted that. Those threads always take on a life of their own. You, as the poster, can not really set the agenda. Your take on Axelrod was a great thing not picked up on in other stories. I haven't read the whole thread. Were you right, did he write both speeches?
posted by caddis at 7:50 PM on February 19, 2008

Political newsfilterish posts rarely go super well here, where "go super well" is defined as "does not devolve into a shouting match between partisans" That said, I'm not sure what your question is. If you have no political agenda it might seem like political posts are okay, but many many other people DO have a political agenda and they flock to those threads like squids to light jigs.
posted by jessamyn at 7:50 PM on February 19, 2008 [1 favorite]

...it seemed to take on a lively little life of its own.

That often happens. Naturally enough.

I'm just wondering if this is an example of an unintentioned, yet good place for folks to vent political, or the MeFi equivalent of tossing a stink bomb and running away.

Whatever your intention may happen to be with any given FPP is more or less irrelevant, in my opinion. People are going to take the discussion where they want to, no matter what.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:56 PM on February 19, 2008 [1 favorite]

* Squid Fishing Forum... I have read somewhere that attach a chemical light stick in front of your jig improves squid jigging?
posted by R. Mutt at 7:58 PM on February 19, 2008

... like squids to light jigs.

Like the swallows to Capistrano.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:59 PM on February 19, 2008

posted by cgc373 Are you trying to expand the number of places for MeFites to argue about politics by making a new thread, here, timsteil? I can't understand your question.


Not at all cgc, just trying to pay some mind and respect to what the blue community values. What I hoped to accomplish with the post was show people that there were consultants on both sides pulling strings, crafting message calendars, and telling them what color tie to wear to the debate etc. It seemed to derail into a wizzing contest about the difference between the two Dems.

And I'm not sure if I believe you when you say you had no political agenda, either, given the subject matter and topicality and NewsFilter quality of the links, but whatever.

Well, the subject matter was what popped into my head that morning. As far as the NewsFilter qualities, I can't comment on that. One of the reasons I ask this question in the first place is that some folks seem to be put way off by any link or reference to a major newspaper or media outlet. I encourage a healthy scepticism for all, but simply dismissing talented journalists because of where they work seems suspect to me.

As far as whether you believe me or not, I guess that is up to you to decide. I think that was like my 7th post in 6 years or so, so if I had an axe to grind, or ulterior motive, it might have showed by now.

My biggest question/concern...was whether I should have mentioned politics to begin with, and if so/not...should I have realized it would have derailed into 200+ replies that had nothing to do with my original post.
posted by timsteil at 8:01 PM on February 19, 2008

Oh, and I hadn't read through that thread before, and now I've read your comment, here, timsteil. I apologize for assuming you were seeking publicity, as it appears you genuinely were interested in the speechwriter guy, not in the candidates, and were surprised by the way the thread went.
posted by cgc373 at 8:02 PM on February 19, 2008

Whoops, didn't preview, but the apology still holds, timsteil.
posted by cgc373 at 8:03 PM on February 19, 2008

Yes you should have, and the lesson is not to post political crap to Metafilter. That is not what this site is for. Go get an account at Daily Kos.
posted by LarryC at 8:10 PM on February 19, 2008

Yes you should have, and the lesson is not to post political crap to Metafilter. That is not what this site is for. Go get an account at Daily Kos.

All politics all the time is bad, but I have nothing at all against the occasional political thread, if the link is at least worthwhile. I would much rather hear what other Metafilter people have to say about X than probably any other group of website users. It's supposed to be about the links, but let's face it: it really isn't these days. It's at least as much about the discussion, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's why I've always come here.

All or nothing is, as has been stated so many times by Matt&co. over the years, not a useful policy, nor is it the way that things are actually run.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:17 PM on February 19, 2008

Light fuse and get away.
posted by The Deej at 8:18 PM on February 19, 2008

the thread went fine, for every-one's information. There was little yelling and shouting, most of which managed to get ignored. I understand there was some deletions, but I don't think there was any major surgery. fourcheesemac seems to have gone on a little tirade down near the bottom, but the thing actually played out pretty well. I wish more MeFi political threads went that way.
posted by edgeways at 8:29 PM on February 19, 2008 [1 favorite]

... like squids to light jigs.

Like the swallows to Capistrano.

Like beans to plates.
posted by rtha at 8:34 PM on February 19, 2008

What I hoped to accomplish with the post was show people that there were consultants on both sides pulling strings, crafting message calendars, and telling them what color tie to wear to the debate etc.

And this would be new information to whom?
posted by eyeballkid at 9:18 PM on February 19, 2008

I agree with edgeways that it was actually a pretty good thread. timsteil, the lesson is just that sometimes people aren't interested in the part you're interested in. It helps to make the first link the one you really want to discuss, and frame the post so that's clearly the strongest focus. Eg: "Check out the client list of [John Smith], democratic speechwriter. When Clinton accused Obama of [plagiarism], this was the part of the story that wasn't reported anywhere: that speechwriter writes for every damn person in the world. Was it always this way, or is the pool of writers contracting?".
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:31 PM on February 19, 2008

The Squid-Jiggin' Ground

Arthur R. Scammell

Oh... this is the place where the fishermen gather
With oil-skins and boots and Cape Anns battened down
All sizes of figures with squid lines and jiggers
They congregate here on the squid-jiggin' ground.

Some are workin' their jiggers while others are yarnin'
There's some standin' up and there's more lyin' down
While all kinds of fun, jokes and tricks are begun
As they wait for the squid on the squid-jiggin' ground.

There's men of all ages and boys in the bargain
There's old Billy Cave and there's young Raymond Brown
There's a red rantin' Tory out here in the dory
A-runnin' down squires on the squid-jiggin' ground.

There's men from the Harbour and men from the Tickle
In all kinds of motorboats... green, grey and brown
Right yonder is Bobby and with him is Nobby
He's chewin' hard tack on the squid-jiggin' ground.

God bless my sou'wester, there's Skipper John Chaffey
He's the best hand at squid-jiggin' here, I'll be bound
Hello! What's the row? Why, he's jiggin' one now
The very first squid on the squid-jiggin' ground.

The man with the whiskers is old Jacob Steele
He's gettin' well up but he's still pretty sound
While Uncle Bob Hawkins wears six pairs of stockin's
Whenever he's out on the squid-jiggin' ground.

Holy smoke! What a scuffle! All hands are excited
'Tis a wonder to me that there's nobody drowned
There's a bustle, confusion, a wonderful hustle
They're all jiggin' squid on the squid-jiggin' ground.

Says Bobby, "The squids are on top of the water,
I just got me jigger 'bout one fathom down"
When a squid in the boat squirted right down his throat
And he's swearin' like mad on the squid-jiggin' ground.

There's poor Uncle Bille, his whiskers are spattered
With spots of the squid juice thats' flyin' around;
One poor little b'y got it right in the eye
But they don't give a damn on the squid-jiggin' ground.

Now if ever you feel inclined to go squiddin'
Leave your white shirts and collars behind in the town
And if you get cranky without yer silk hanky
You'd better steer clear of the squid-jiggin' ground.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:32 PM on February 19, 2008 [1 favorite]

edgeways writes "the thread went fine, for every-one's information."

I just read it through because of the meta. Looks fine to me, even tame as such things go. Unless there were mass deletions I don't think you could expect better.
posted by Mitheral at 9:35 PM on February 19, 2008

Now I'm going to have nightmares about the all-cephalopod version of Riverdance.

(Also: huh huh. He said "squid juice.")
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:52 PM on February 19, 2008

timsteil, I just read through most of the thread -- it was actually a pretty honest exchange, and I learned a few things from it. It was a pretty good conversation, really.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:00 PM on February 19, 2008

I actually thought that thread went pretty well.
posted by Afroblanco at 10:06 PM on February 19, 2008

My biggest question/concern...was whether I should have mentioned politics to begin with, and if so/not...should I have realized it would have derailed into 200+ replies that had nothing to do with my original post.

Your post's words:
Obama accused of plagarism. Clinton aide Howard Wolfson claims Barack Obama plagarized a speech by Governor Deval Patrick (D-MA). If they do seem similar, it could be because they were likely written by the same person, political consultant David Axelrod, a man who gets around.

Looks like a decent post to me, for whatever that's worth. I had wondered if this was due to a shared speechwriter, so I read the first bits and then moved on. Because as interested as I am in the election, I suspect that no matter what the specific content is, to many people such threads will read as:

Obama accused of plagarism. Clinton aide Howard Wolfson claims Barack Obama plagarized a speech by Governor Deval Patrick (D-MA). If they--
This is the new Obama/Clinton/McCain thread!

And I think it just comes with the territory, especially right now. Not bringing your own agenda was good, but everyone else brought their intention to discuss Obama and Clinton in general. But it seemed to go well for a political thread, despite not discussing the topic you wanted to.

It helps to make the first link the one you really want to discuss, and frame the post so that's clearly the strongest focus.

Good suggestions. I'm going to try that next time I make a post.
posted by Tehanu at 11:05 PM on February 19, 2008

http://xkcd.com/386/
posted by Jacqueline at 11:16 PM on February 19, 2008

If, and I realize for some people, this is a big "if", if this is a community then it would be odd not to discuss politics. Having said that, US Politics are rather one dimensional and while this is an interesting story it is arguably not the best of the web, even in an election cycle. The equivalent of the Pentagon Papers released on the web would be the best thereof. But it isn't the worst of the web and like I say, it is a good thing that there is political discussion here.
posted by Rumple at 11:48 PM on February 19, 2008

If we can't discuss politics, and we can't discuss religion, and we can't discuss race, what's left?

Oh, yeah, right: the best of the web. Almost forgot about that.
posted by davejay at 12:01 AM on February 20, 2008

I'm kind of hypocritical to say this because i've made a couple of Obama FPP, and if you let me, I'll talk about his campaign all day, but maybe it's time to call a moriatorium on Obama FPP barring major news since it looks like he's got the damn thing locked up now.
posted by empath at 12:13 AM on February 20, 2008

This is not a response, empath, so much as random note-taking in comment form, but one of these days someone needs to examine the history of metatalk moratoria proposals.

In general, I kind of agree with the sentiment; we're swinging out to the far end of the primary season, and while I don't know that Obama has things locked up precisely I do feel like Real News is going to get a bit sparser and we might find more in the way of stretchy campaign-gossip posts if folks don't show some restraint. We'll have to see what happens, though, since I don't feel like it's been nearly the storm so far as what we've seen in previous election cycles.
posted by cortex at 12:29 AM on February 20, 2008

oh, i'm not saying a rule. just a general statement that, oh, 20 of them in a month is a bit much.
posted by empath at 12:44 AM on February 20, 2008

though, again, I'm happy to talk about Obama and the campaign in general all day every day, but I'm certainly not planning on FPPing again about the campaign in the near future.
posted by empath at 12:46 AM on February 20, 2008

Maybe a policy that only one US election thread per day is allowed, enforced like doubles. That would mean a couple or three would be on the front page all the time giving those who are interested a place. Those who aren't know they have to skip just a post a day. I realize that the threads would degenerate into chatfilter at times but at least it would be contained chatfilter.
posted by Mitheral at 2:16 AM on February 20, 2008

I'd like to propose a moratorium on moratorium proposals.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:33 AM on February 20, 2008

I'd like to propose a moratorium on moratoriums on moratorium proposals.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:12 AM on February 20, 2008

Lessatorium.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:22 AM on February 20, 2008 [1 favorite]

I posted this with no political agenda whatsoever, and it seemed to take on a lively little life of its own. I am fairly surprised it didn't get deleted when it started going off the rails.

Okay, I have no idea what you're talking about. The thread was fine. It was more congenial then most political posts around here and far better then most political discussions on the web these days.

People are passionate about politics. We haven't had very many threads about the primaries, and that's probably a good thing. but that's not because most of us don't care, it's because a lot of them get deleted. And that's not a bad thing.

But a political thread once in a while is fine. And that thread wasn't too bad at all.

So... lighten up?
posted by delmoi at 6:29 AM on February 20, 2008

Maybe a policy that only one US election thread per day is allowed, enforced like doubles.

We've had much less then one non-deleted political thread per day. It seems more like once a week or once every week and a half. Not much. That's a good thing, especially given the acrimony of the primary and the way it's sucked up all the oxygen in the MSM.

But, mefites are a good bit smarter then the average poster, even at places like TPM.
posted by delmoi at 6:34 AM on February 20, 2008

should I have realized it would have derailed into 200+ replies that had nothing to do with my original post.

I can't believe nobody has gone here yet.. When you make a post, smile and be happy, don't try to control the direction of conversation (don't even try to guess at what it will be). At best, it just won't work..

That was your only mistake, and the only lesson you should take from this experience.
posted by Chuckles at 6:40 AM on February 20, 2008

If we can't discuss politics, and we can't discuss religion, and we can't discuss race

YES WE CAN
posted by poppo at 7:25 AM on February 20, 2008 [1 favorite]

Should I have learned a lesson from this?

Yes. A decent spell-checker would not let you get away with writing 'plagarism' or 'plagarized.'
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:07 AM on February 20, 2008

One of the reasons I ask this question in the first place is that some folks seem to be put way off by any link or reference to a major newspaper or media outlet. I encourage a healthy scepticism for all, but simply dismissing talented journalists because of where they work seems suspect to me.

Hey, it just sounds to me like you haven't quite gotten the timbre of things around here, yet. It's okay. But for your info, the reason people don't like newsfilter posts isn't because of any kind of scepticism of mainstream news or lack of respect for professional journalists (on the whole, individuals may have individual dislikes for individual pro journalists). It's just that a bunch of us don't like having mefi filled up with stuff we can all easily read elsewhere, and likely will read elsewhere since it's already posted and printed and otherwise reproduced everywhere. The idea is that Mefi is supposed to be the best of the web, not the most common of the web.

But that debate isn't settled and likely never will be. So post what you want, and understand that news posts (ESPECIALLY political ones) will draw some nasty shit no matter what you do. You're not lighting a stink bomb, but some stinky motherfuckers will walk in anyway. I'd say welcome to metafilter, but with a user number of 16k, you've been here for a while... which sort of makes this thread confusing. have you been awol for a while?
posted by shmegegge at 10:50 AM on February 20, 2008

MetaFilter: some stinky motherfuckers will walk in anyway.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:49 PM on February 20, 2008