I c*nt stop saying twat.

July 9, 2008 12:33 PM

UK vs. US or shock value vs. prudishness? Swearing in the drum circle thread.

This is me trying to open a discussion on offensiveness. I'm not looking to sanction or shame (well maybe shame a little) anyone, but I personally like to know when the words I'm using are more or less offensive than I actually intend.

I can't speak for other Americans, but culturally I find the word cunt to be about on par in offensiveness with words like kike or nigger, and phrases like "I'd like to break her jaw and hump her." More to the point, I've only heard the term used in my life by people who are going on a drunken hatefilled spitting rant, or as a prelude to a phrase like "I hope she gets raped".

I understand that in the UK and perhaps in other areas of the US, the use of the word cunt is much more common, and is used in less of a hateful misogynistic way and more as a general swear word with I'd guess slightly more emphatic meaning than wanker.

However, I strongly suspect that a lot of Americans are going to assume those using the term are misogynist assholes. Similarly but less so for the term twat. I have nothing against offensiveness generally, but I hope that people are fully aware of the cross cultural implications of what they are saying before they say it.

posted by BrotherCaine to etiquette/policy at 12:33 PM (541 comments total)

While I think it may be completely impossible for people to be "fully aware of the cross cultural implications of what they are saying before they say it" I would like to see "cunt" buried beneath 30 feet of concrete at the bottom of the Mariana Trench.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:38 PM on July 9 [8 favorites]

Toughen up, buttercup. Make your assumptions, have your cultural awareness, and be content with that. Don't expect sterling behavior from every warm body with access to a keyboard. Which isn't an apology for misogynist assholes (by the way, where I'm from that term is usually used in reference to minivans—not the drivers, just the vehicles—and/or partially clawed de-clawed cats), of course.
posted by carsonb at 12:39 PM on July 9 [6 favorites]

For the record, this basically started when someone made a twat/cunt joke after an offhand comment in a thread about something else. People started responding in-thread in an OMG fashion and flagging like crazy. I suggested the discussion take place here because while I think it's a worthwhile discussion, it was going to destroy the thread it was in originally. I don't think anyone is particularly pissed off about it, but this comes up from time to time and might be worth getting hashed out.

My feeling as a general observer is that we're not generally okay with casual racism-as-irony-about-racism and the same with other forms of bigotry; I am aware that in the UK words like cunt and twat are more commonplace. So if a comment gets flagged and deleted calling someone a cunt (as we would do if someone called someone a kike) there's a predictable backlash from UK folks thinking we're being excessively nannying with not particularly offensive language.
posted by jessamyn at 12:41 PM on July 9

My vote: err on the side of the most charitable interpretation. If the use of a word with multiple valid meanings offends you, you're doing it wrong.
posted by Skorgu at 12:41 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

I think it's important for everyone to help make MetaFilter a (virtual) place of tolerance and respect. But couldn't you just flag and move on?
posted by KokuRyu at 12:42 PM on July 9

I think that new people who come here and think that they can just tell us to stop telling people to not say "cunt" need to realize that we were here first.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:43 PM on July 9 [10 favorites]

I'm with you on both the word cunt and the word twat. I appreciated TPS discouraging the ongoing "twat"-fest in the comments, but that didn't seem to stop anything. I almost brought this here as well, but was too chicken shit to start anything up.
posted by Stewriffic at 12:45 PM on July 9

It would be nice if people realised that the recent rise in popularity of that word in the UK was the same as the disintegration of the pointless taboo around fuck. It isn't Ken Tynan and the Sex Pistols sticking it to establishment prudes, it's a word with a lot of hate in it. However, stemming that particular tide is a Cnut-like endeavour.
posted by WPW at 12:46 PM on July 9

I try not to call people cunts unless I am in an Irvine Welsh novel, in which event, yeah.
posted by everichon at 12:46 PM on July 9 [7 favorites]

My vote: err on the side of the most charitable interpretation.

That's only half of the equation. For true interoperability you must be careful with what you send and generous with what you receive.
posted by tkolar at 12:46 PM on July 9 [9 favorites]

Try "Call U Next Tuesday" with an impish look on your face. Sure, it doesn't translate well in writing but it feels good.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 12:49 PM on July 9

If flagging is for pulling comments, I'm not sure I want comments pulled for using that term unless it is clearly directed at a female in a misogynist or hateful fashion. Generally I read the word with the most charitable interpretation as Skorgu says, and no one comment with cunt or twat in it is going to bug me, but when it becomes a general theme in a thread I'm not thrilled by it. More because of the intellectual laziness that such dismissiveness seems to engender, but also because I have trouble assessing the level of vitriol of the poster without a knowledge of their background.
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:50 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

My objection in the drum circle thread was not that people were using offensive words. I have no problems with offensive words on the whole. I just think they should be used prudently. In a thread discussing contentious issues, going back and forth on who is more of a "twat" is ridiculous. It is, as BrotherCaine just said, intellectually lazy.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:53 PM on July 9

I'll use any and all of these words in Scrabble. Anything to win.
posted by not_on_display at 12:53 PM on July 9 [6 favorites]

It's self-evident that there will always be words some people use, that others don't like. Trying to impose your standards of linquistic tolerance on others just so you don't have to be aware of those words seems pointless. Just deal with the fact that there are people who interpret things differently than you. It's only language. Saying "rape" or "cunt" is not the same as performing the actions you might happen to associate them those words.
posted by BorgLove at 12:54 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

I called someone a cunt on MetaFilter once, and the (fairly mild) reaction persuaded me to never do so again. I've probably deleted hundreds of cunts since, though, since it's hard to remember how extreme a term it is in the US compared to the UK (especially Scotland - I have to de-cunt my vocabulary when I'm down South). As for 'twat', I really like the way (some?) Americans pronounce it 'twot'.

So if a comment gets flagged and deleted calling someone a cunt (as we would do if someone called someone a kike) there's a predictable backlash from UK folks thinking we're being excessively nannying with not particularly offensive language.

Oh no, are we going to have a thousand comment thread about whether terms like 'cunt' and 'twat' are intrinsically misogynist and/or equivalent to racist hate speech now?

it's a word with a lot of hate in it

Depending on where you are and who you're saying it to and how you're saying it.
posted by jack_mo at 12:54 PM on July 9 [5 favorites]

"YOU'RE a twat!"

"No, YOU'RE a twat!"

"Mom!!!!"
posted by Evangeline at 12:55 PM on July 9 [3 favorites]

Associate *with*. Jesus! Oops... sorry.
posted by BorgLove at 12:55 PM on July 9

Twat makes me giggle.
posted by Mister_A at 12:56 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

MetaFilter: I've probably deleted hundreds of cunts.
posted by Mister_A at 12:58 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

"there's a predictable backlash from UK folks thinking we're being excessively nannying with not particularly offensive language"

This is a culture clash more than anything, which is why I didn't cite comments by individual members.
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:59 PM on July 9

I don't understand why this is an issue. "Dick" and "Asshole" are acceptable on TV now. Since "Twat" refers to female anatomy it is somehow automatically offensive? It's just a word. Am I allowed to use the phrase "a bucket of vaginas" just like people use "bucket of cocks"? Where is the locus of the offense? If 'cunt' is applied to a group of people or to a man, is it still offensive? Or is it only offensive when applied to a woman? It all seems ridiculous prudishness to me in this instance. No one individual was called a 'twat'. Why is the word itself offensive?
posted by spicynuts at 1:00 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

If it's not offensive, why bother to use it over and over and over again? Should we take up a collection and send you a thesaurus?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:01 PM on July 9 [7 favorites]

I don't understand why this is an issue. "Dick" and "Asshole" are acceptable on TV now. Since "Twat" refers to female anatomy it is somehow automatically offensive?

I think it's a mistake to try and look at the chargedness of these words in terms of strict logic.
posted by cortex at 1:01 PM on July 9 [11 favorites]

it's a word with a lot of hate in it

Why? Because you are offended by it? I can be a thousand times more hateful with basic words than with that single one.
posted by spicynuts at 1:02 PM on July 9

It is a colossally offensive word, no matter which side of the pond you're on. I'd think twice before using the word in any but the closest company and i'm generally considered to be a foul mouthed bastard. Even when I do, I generally only self-apply, know what i mean? I can't think offhand of an occassion that i'd bust it out on th'internets - particularly here, and i think maybe some of us Brits need to chill the fuck out with it.
posted by Jofus at 1:02 PM on July 9

More because of the intellectual laziness that such dismissiveness seems to engender

Are we going to remove statements that have no controversial words in them that are intellectually lazy? Because there is plenty of intellectual laziness on here, swear words or no. The site is basically lousy with it.
posted by spicynuts at 1:04 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

When I moved from the UK to the US, it took me around a year to work out that 'cunt' was a word that caused real offence, not just an amusingly-strong swear word. Five years later, I'm still not really sure what 'cunt' means to Americans, or exactly how it causes that offence. I think that, in a transient community such as Metafilter, it is too much to expect that everyone will pick up these subtleties before spewing forth.

And so I think the only solution is for everyone, to the extent that they can, to avoid giving offence *and also* avoid taking offence. If you know that no offence was intended, there's no point in flagging, or in opening Metatalk threads, because you're getting upset about something that never really happened.
posted by beniamino at 1:04 PM on July 9

Actually, thinking on, I think my opinion can be summed up thusly: you can use the word cunt wherever and whenever you want, but on the whole its classier not to.
posted by Jofus at 1:05 PM on July 9 [4 favorites]

I'm not sure I want comments pulled for using that term unless it is clearly directed at a female in a misogynist or hateful fashion.

And this is where the problem comes in. There are certain racial epithets that you sort of can't repurpose to be anything but shock words to the majority of people who will read them, for whatever reason. Then we have words like "queer" or "bitch" where, depending no how you use them, you can be intending them to be hurtful or just being descriptive. Or people try to be edgy and use them so that you can't really tell what's intended. We have enough people on MeFi who use have used "cunt" in the clearly hurtful fashion -- often talking about Ann Coulter or women they really despise -- that it's tough to separate it to be used in the more casual (I'm presuming) UK fashion when you're just referring to some gender-nonspecific person you dislike.

I personally don't care as much what the words do or do not mean, except insofar as people's feelings about what they mean create a reaction here at MeFi that has to be managed. If someone flags a comment where someone uses the word "fuck" we ignore it generally because we're okay with general swearing. If they use any of the more colorful racial/homophobic slurs, in most cases we'll remove the comment because that's sort of how we've decided to handle it. Whether you meant "kike" in a bad way or not is sort of immaterial, or needs to be discussed in MetaTalk.

The same isn't true for cunt/twat/whatever, or we haven't really talked about it much here. I'd be okay letting people sort of self-correct in threads -- like we do with minor name calling -- but that doesn't seem to be what happens in these cases. People try to correct, other people claim they're being oversensitive, the thread derails.

More to the point, I guess my statement would be "If you knew that many Americans (and perhaps others) thought that the word cunt was on par with the terms kike/nigger/faggot in terms of being offensive, would you still be casually using it on MetaFilter?"
posted by jessamyn at 1:06 PM on July 9 [11 favorites]

If it's not offensive, why bother to use it over and over and over again? Should we take up a collection and send you a thesaurus?

Paging George Carlin and Richard Pryor.
posted by spicynuts at 1:06 PM on July 9

The "C' word is considered to be offensive in the UK and isn't generally bandied about in every day language. That said, I personally don't feel offended by its (rare) use on Metafilter - although when applied to women I'd probably have issues.
posted by panboi at 1:06 PM on July 9

WPW: it's a word with a lot of hate in it

jack_mo: Depending on where you are and who you're saying it to and how you're saying it.

The same is true for nigger, and faggot, and a few more. The question isn't "Well, if it's said by someone in the UK, that's alright then" - or at least, I don't think that's the question. I think the question is, what's okay here in MetaFilter? A comment calling residents of Harlem "niggers" would be flagged to hell and back, deleted, drawn and quartered, etc., even though many of those residents may call themselves that, or even if the commenter calls him/herself that.

I hate the word cunt, at least when it's used as an insult or way to denigrate someone. Hate it a lot.
posted by rtha at 1:06 PM on July 9 [4 favorites]

"As for 'twat', I really like the way (some?) Americans pronounce it 'twot'."

The British pronunciation (with a nod to regional variations, of course) of 'twăt' has always amused me because of its similarity to 'splat'. Sort of onomatopoeic.

The fact that I am easily amused is, I suspect, apparent.
posted by elfgirl at 1:06 PM on July 9 [3 favorites]

BorgLove, I've said things in my life that are so offensive that my mother would throw up if she heard them, my standards of linguistic tolerance are pretty high. But I'm sensitive to the context of when I'm saying something offensive. Pedophile and rape jokes around friends, clean language in front of my parents, and a mix online. Reread my post, I'm not looking to santion anyone, cheesy as it may be, this is an educational effort.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:07 PM on July 9

This isn't exclusively a culture clash between UK and US english speakers and uses of "cunt" which basically map to "punk" and "bitch".

There are those of us who want our nice "pussy" substitute back. *shudders* Ugh, I hate "pussy." It lightly cheeses my toast that even when referring, in the Old English tradition to a cunt - this one - right here - the one I was born with - that some users of the site get upset by the use of the word. Whaddya gonna do? I'm a post Reclaiming Cunt'er.

Give language whatever power you like, but it means "vagina," and it should be allowed as analogous to "vagina" without invoking some ongoing battle over the misogyny of Transantlantic epithets. Leave literal cunt alone!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:08 PM on July 9 [10 favorites]

I find the word cunt to be about on par in offensiveness with words like kike or nigger, and phrases like "I'd like to break her jaw and hump her."

People are soooo racist against vaginas.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:08 PM on July 9

There are two kinds of cunts in the world:

1. the kind that uses the word cunt

2. the kind that is offended by the word cunt
posted by Sys Rq at 1:10 PM on July 9 [6 favorites]

*sanction* rather.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:12 PM on July 9

Here's the thing. I speak two different languages. In one, the word cunt is highly taboo. That's American English. In the other, Castillan Spanish, the equivalent word, coño, is used so casually as to not even register on anyone's swear-word-o-meter.

I see both sides--I'm imagining the UK use of cunt is much like the Spanish use. If I were from the UK, it probably wouldn't bother me at all to hear cunt every other word. But in the US, in my speech, cunt is super-loaded with hate. BrotherCaine is not exaggerating for effect when he says he's only heard the word cunt used in extremely misogynist contexts in the US.

So yeah, both cunt and twat* come across to me as hostile. Which sucks.

*to a much lesser degree, but probably only because you just never hear it at all here.
posted by Stewriffic at 1:12 PM on July 9

Sys Rq, you're acting a fool if you want to pretend there isn't some truth to your first remark.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:13 PM on July 9

This is why I prefer to use the term "9 volt battery."
posted by bondcliff at 1:15 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

HI I'M ON METAFILTER AND I COULD OVERTHINK A PLATE OF FEMALE GENTIALIA
posted by dersins at 1:15 PM on July 9

There are those of us who want our nice "pussy" substitute back.

That makes sense to me. Context is everything here.

It lightly cheeses my toast

On the other hand, I've never heard it called that before.
posted by panboi at 1:16 PM on July 9

Why? Because you are offended by it?

To be frank, I'm not particularly offended by it, and have used it, but strive not to. I've discussed its level of offense several times when it has come up in the text of magazines I have worked for, and the my female friends and colleagues have said with near unamity that they consider it pretty hateful. So now I do my best to avoid it because I see it as being strongly offensive to many people whom I care about it. As I said, it would be nice if it disappeared, but we live in the world and in the UK at least that battle is lost. I'm not on a crusade to stamp it out. I don't think less of people for using it, unless they're comedians throwing it about in a desperate attempt to be edgy. I'm thinking of Jimmy Carr in particular there. What a twat. Twat, I and the colleagues I've discussed this with feel, does appear far weaker. And yes, that's a completely inconsistent position.

Seeing the c-word on Metafilter doesn't upset me. This is the internet, after all, and it is worth reserving the upset for the really important debates about Ralph Wiggum's use of imagery.
posted by WPW at 1:16 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

In the US, both cunt and twat are used as extremely negative words for women, and as even more negative words for men. Words having to do with male genitalia have, traditionally in American English, not carried the same negative weight as words for female genitalia. There is the added effect that in our culture suggesting a male is in some way feminine is insulting as well. In other words, it's much worse for a guy to be a "pussy" than to be a "dick" and any 13 year old American boy could tell you why.

As others have said, because of the history of both of the words under discussion both in our society and in my own life, I am annoyed by reading them and think badly of the person using them--I tend to think they are either misogynist or uncreative, or both.

If I were to use a word that carried similar weight to someone I was trying to have a conversation with, I would want to know so I could stop. For instance, using "lame" as derogatory really bothers a disabled friend. He told me this. Now I know, so I try not to say that anymore, not just around him, but around everybody because I don't want to accidentally hurt anybody. But I recognize not everybody feels that way about policing their own language.
posted by hydropsyche at 1:17 PM on July 9 [3 favorites]

The "can I say dick then? Huh? How about cock? What? What? Huh? What?" people are the Internet equivalent of "I'm not touching you I'm not touching you oh my hands are real close but I'm not touching you so you can't do anything because I'm not touching you WAAAAHH HE HIT ME MOOOOMMM!!!!"
posted by Shepherd at 1:17 PM on July 9 [6 favorites]

Unamity=unanimity.
posted by WPW at 1:18 PM on July 9

I understand if people don't want to get into it here, but can someone link me to the previous discussion of why saying "cunt" is like saying "nigger" so that I can follow along? I grew up in a culture that was very cunt-positive, if ya know what I mean. If you don't, I mean, it was used a lot but it was used more like "shit" than like "kike."
posted by prefpara at 1:19 PM on July 9

More to the point, I guess my statement would be "If you knew that many Americans (and perhaps others) thought that the word cunt was on par with the terms kike/nigger/faggot in terms of being offensive, would you still be casually using it on MetaFilter?"

I do get the point here, but...from the cunt-using point of view, it's massively offensive that a word meaning 'vagina' is the most taboo thing one could say, or the most-hated word. It's hard not to hear a surge of deep-seated, societal misogyny when someone gets offended by it but not by calling someone a dick.

On preview, kind of retreading some of Ambrosia Voyeur's steps there.
posted by carbide at 1:20 PM on July 9 [3 favorites]

Five years later, I'm still not really sure what 'cunt' means to Americans, or exactly how it causes that offence.

"Cunt" is gender specific word here. I don't think I've ever heard of an American calling a group of people or a man a "cunt." It's directed at women only and it's "bitch" times a thousand. That's my take on it anyway.

"Twat," however, is just a funny sounding and funny looking word to me. It's never had a gender specific meaning for me. I had been using it for years then someone pointed out it's real meaning to me. I was slightly embarassed for a while, but it's still just a funny souding word to me. Maybe I should blame Carlin for that.
posted by NoMich at 1:20 PM on July 9

I think "bucket of cunts" would be more appropos than "bucket of vaginas." It just rolls off the tongue so much more smoothly.

Me? I just always read it - no lie - with a British or Scottish accent. I've read more than my fair share of Irvine Welsh, and maybe somewhere I've just become inured to it (not to mention my line of work tends to be populated with people who can put stevedores to shame as far as swearing is concerned....). I got a chuckle out of the "twot vs twat-like-splat" comment earlier, because I - a lifelong NYer - read it as "twat-like-splat."

As far as cunt being as offensive as "nigger/kike/faggot"....really? Cmon, really? Get over it. It's a word, and not one that any history I'm aware of invests it with the same power as "nigger." One recalls hundreds of years of inhuman treatment, and the other is a somewhat nasty sounding epithet. I don't find it at all appealing to call even someone as borderline human and fascistic as Ann Coulter a cunt, but I don't mind a group of rich white assholes invading a traditionally middle to lower class area and who are attempting to fundamentally change long-lived customs being called cunts or twats. On the contrary, I think it quite fitting.
posted by nevercalm at 1:22 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

I call it cunt. I’ve reclaimed it, “cunt.” I really like it. “Cunt.” Listen to it. “Cunt.” C C. Ca Ca. Cavern, cackle, clit, cute, come-closed c-closed inside, inside ca-then u-then cu-then curvy, inviting sharkskin u-uniform, under, up, urge, ugh, ugh, u — then n then cun — snug letters fitting perfectly together — n — nest, now, nexus, nice, nice, always depth, always round in upper case, cun, cun-n a jagged wicked electrical pulse-n (high pitched noise) then soft n-warm n — cun, cun, then t — then sharp certain tangy t — texture, take, tent, tight, tantalizing, tensing, taste, tendrils, time, tactile, tell me, tell me “Cunt cunt,” say it, tell me “Cunt.” “Cunt.”

-from The Vagina Monologues

It's not my favorite term of endearment, but I don't consider it an offensive word unless there's genuine malicious intent behind it.
posted by Metroid Baby at 1:22 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

I once visited a friend in college and stayed in her dorm room. As she, her roommates and I were all sitting on the floor chatting, one particularly hideous girl asked us all a question. Something about this girl horrified me. Maybe it was the inexplicable sweat. Maybe it was that she couldn't speak without shoving food in her crumb-bedecked maw or that her snacks always shared oral real estate with a stale lump of chewing gum. Possibly it was the intermittent picking of fungus-ridden toenails... I don't know. She was gross to the point of distraction.

"Hey! HEY! I gotta ask you guys something!" she blurted with the hoarse voice of someone who was probably the first to barf at every kegger. "Do you guys ever stick your fingers in your tw*t and smell 'em?"

So, every time someone says the t-word, I think of her. Culture be damned. I just want the nightmares to end.
posted by katillathehun at 1:22 PM on July 9 [6 favorites]

Context is everything. If my mind's ear hears a comment in a gorblimey sort of accent, "cunt" sounds tame and colorful. If I hear it in an edgy feminist way it sounds slightly forced but fine. If I hear it in a dumb guy voice, "cunt" sounds particularly nasty.

So I don't know. Somebody write a greasemonkey script that will attach a floating picture of a Union Jack or a white hat or a copy of the Vagina Monologues next to any occurance of the word cunt, so we are all sure we get the proper sense intended.
posted by dirtdirt at 1:22 PM on July 9 [7 favorites]

Argh, [swearword]. First paragraph quoted, in italics, other two by a moron who can't close tags.
posted by carbide at 1:22 PM on July 9

"As for 'twat', I really like the way (some?) Americans pronounce it 'twot'."

The British pronunciation (with a nod to regional variations, of course) of 'twăt' has always amused me

Me too, although it took me a while to realize that they (you) actually do pronounce it like that. And of course they (you) feel the same about us Yanks and our weird pronunciation. Language is fun. (Robert Browning, by the way, famously used the word thinking it meant an article of nun's clothing; see here.)
posted by languagehat at 1:26 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

Language would be worthless if there weren't extreme expletives. If you de-value one word, another will appear in its stead. In general, using swear words carelessly is simply boorish.
posted by Burhanistan at 1:26 PM on July 9

I think possibly the English use of the C-word has been a little overstated - it's not like you'd go to tea with the Queen and say "Pass me the marmalade , you old cunt". Also, for whatever reason, twat is generally considered an order of magnitude less offensive.
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on July 9 [3 favorites]

Let me come at this from a different angle. I just found out that saying "untouchable" has become the equivalent to the n* word (no I'm not talking about Narnia) in India. I had a friend tell me that, and I didn't immediately assume he was jumping all over my shit, or even that he was particularly offended. I thanked him profusely, because I don't want to get my ass kicked someday by a bunch of Indian guys who think I'm disrespecting them. Friends tell each other when words they use are offensive. I'd like this thread to be in metafilter's community consciousness. It is not an appeal to authority or a petition drive or letter writing campaign. I'm not ever going to bring it up again, and had I found a previous thread on the subject in my search of meta I would not have brought it up in the first place. But I do want people to realize the terms are loaded.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:27 PM on July 9 [4 favorites]

rtha writes 'The same is true for nigger, and faggot, and a few more.'

Absolutely - that's what I meant, that it's possible to use an offensive word in a non-offensive way, and it's wrong to say that a word is intrinsically 'full of hate'. (As an aside, I'm having trouble thinking of an example of 'faggot' being used in a neutral or positive way, unlike 'queer' or 'gay' - perhaps another transatlantic difference?)

I think the question is, what's okay here in MetaFilter?

Again, absolutely. As I said above, I don't direct the word 'cunt' at other users here, after doing so once to a male user and I don't think it's okay to do so, since the word is used in a different way and has a different meaning in the US, and it's a safe bet that the vast majority of people reading and making comments here are from the US. Using the word without addressing it at other users/folk under discussion seems relatively okay to me, though - correct me if I'm wrong.
posted by jack_mo at 1:27 PM on July 9

I do get the point here, but...from the cunt-using point of view, it's massively offensive that a word meaning 'vagina' is the most taboo thing one could say, or the most-hated word. It's hard not to hear a surge of deep-seated, societal misogyny when someone gets offended by it but not by calling someone a dick.

Again, there's a risk here of trying to apply logic or some simplified sort of semantics to something as complicated as taboo.

The word 'nigger' is right up there as—outside of specific cultural contexts—just about one of the most taboo things you can say in the US as well, but it's not because the word means "black person", any more than 'cunt' bothers people because it mean "vagina". And, in fact, if 'cunt' in the US had no connotation other than an anatomical "female genitalia", it wouldn't be taboo, just as 'black' isn't at this point, in general usage, anywhere comparable to 'nigger'.
posted by cortex at 1:27 PM on July 9 [4 favorites]

It's a word, and not one that any history I'm aware of invests it with the same power as "nigger."

Really? You don't know that there's a history of vaginas being associated with oppression, violence and slavery? There is. A long one.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:28 PM on July 9 [24 favorites]

I find the word cunt to be about on par in offensiveness with words like kike or nigger, and phrases like "I'd like to break her jaw and hump her."

I'd just like to point out that your life is wrong. Try and rewind a li'l bit and try again. But thanks for taking part so far as we always will value your contributions & input.

But generally, I'll use the c-word enough when it's appropriate in conversation with friends but I'm not sure it's worth using too much round here. 'Merkins get antsy when it's not 'merkin-related.

(I recall a thread about GWB using the word 'Pakis' for people from Pakistan which is a highly offensive racial slur in the UK but various Bostonites thought he was talking about picking up some booze from a liquor store. Go figure, as you say...)
posted by i_cola at 1:28 PM on July 9

Also, FWIW, I’ll saw twat whenever I feel like it. Apologies to the feint hearted, but I’m sure it can be no more hostile and irritating than I find posts of the “OMG minor grammar error on the site with no editing!” kind.
posted by Artw at 1:28 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

(Obligatory reference to Joan Larkin's "Vagina Sonnet.")
posted by languagehat at 1:28 PM on July 9

Metatalk: I'd just like to point out that your life is wrong.

Jeez, that's a really bastardly thing to say to someone, i_cola.
posted by Burhanistan at 1:32 PM on July 9 [4 favorites]

As an aside, I'm having trouble thinking of an example of 'faggot' being used in a neutral or positive way, unlike 'queer' or 'gay' - perhaps another transatlantic difference?

For a long time, Dan Savage's letters opened with the salutation, "Hey faggot".
posted by cortex at 1:33 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

Uh, AV... A cunt is a small, usually hidden part of a person. N-----s and k---s are entire persons. There is a difference.

Anyone responding to a sighting of the word with the notion that it's only ever used with vitriol, and/or exclusively against women ought to take their blinders off, turn their brain on, and realize that the instance they're currently seeing might not be vitriolic and might not be directed at a female.

Finally, the feminine naughty bits have many nicknames, some of which are often used as insults, mostly against men. Implicit misogyny? Perhaps. Explicit misandry? Totally. Then consider that the male genitalia have many more nicknames, nearly all of which can be used as insults, again, against men. Misogyny? Oh hell no.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:34 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

I guess my POV boils down to this: stop implicitly slagging vaginas by comparing rotten shitfolk to them. Which, you know, I've said before.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:35 PM on July 9 [3 favorites]

i_cola, pudd'n, you ain't makin' no sense.
posted by katillathehun at 1:36 PM on July 9

So if I want to really make the people of the UK cringe, what's the word?
posted by xod at 1:36 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

Uh, AV... A cunt is a small, usually hidden part of a person. N-----s and k---s are entire persons. There is a difference.

Defining a person in terms of your exploitation of that small part as, essentially, the whole of their net worth is one of the connotations of the charged use that people object to. Part of the difficulty with talking about 'cunt' is that it can't be treated, in a cross-cultural discussion, solely in terms of either the least offense or the most offensive meanings.
posted by cortex at 1:38 PM on July 9 [11 favorites]

Whinging Pom.
posted by languagehat at 1:38 PM on July 9

As someone constantly on the verge of a profanity-laced rant, I reserve the right to use the full armamentarium of obscene English to get my (poorly thought-out, well-nigh incomprehensible) point across. That said, there are words that I choose not to use because they make me personally uncomfortable. That others choose to do so is fine -- that's what free speech means. I expect to be offended or dismayed because I expect to offend or dismay someone else in turn.

What I have sensed, though, is that my reliance on profanity to get my point across marks me as precisely the kind of hayseed I've tried not to be. But that's my problem, not MetaFilter's.

The unfettered language I encounter here and the discussion about that language has been illuminating and has altered my casual speech patterns. I no longer toss around the words "fag" and "retard" as blithely as I once did. No, I don't expect a medal for that, and I'm sorry I used the words pejoratively in the first place, but hey, there it is. You make mistakes, you correct your mistakes, you learn to make bigger and better mistakes.

"Cunt" is an ugly word. It is a bludgeon. At least that's how it sounds to me. But I'm more interested in the discussion around the word than the word itself.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 1:38 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

Er, that was in response to xod.
posted by languagehat at 1:38 PM on July 9

Uh, AV... A cunt is a small, usually hidden part of a person. N-----s and k---s are entire persons. There is a difference.

Are you serious? When the word cunt is used to slam a woman, not to refer to her genitals specifically, it's the ENTIRE woman who's being put in her place, by reducing her to nothing more than her dirty, taboo CUNT.

And also? When the words referring to womenly parts are used as an insult to men, why do you think they're insulting? Because they're calling men WOMEN!

Argh!
posted by Stewriffic at 1:41 PM on July 9 [3 favorites]

There are those of us who want our nice "pussy" substitute back.

You can have it back when I'm done with it.
posted by Crabby Appleton at 1:41 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

Thanks, languagehat. Whinging Pom. I like it. What's a Pom?
posted by xod at 1:42 PM on July 9

I c*nt stop saying twat.

I really hate it when people put asterisks in words like the above. Just spell the damn word.

As for the cunt, twat issue, use it if you think you must. Just realize that you may be offending some people and thus discouraging them from listening to what you're saying. If you're ok with that, fine.

Also, telling that shouldn't be offended and you'll use whatever damn word you want makes you look like a prick.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:42 PM on July 9

BTW, you knew this would be utterly counterproductive when you started, right?
posted by Artw at 1:42 PM on July 9

I recall a thread about GWB using the word 'Pakis' for people from Pakistan which is a highly offensive racial slur in the UK but various Bostonites thought he was talking about picking up some booze from a liquor store. Go figure, as you say...

Here you go
posted by smackfu at 1:43 PM on July 9

BTW, you knew this would be utterly counterproductive when you started, right?

Oh, it needn't be. I don't think it even has been, so far. It'll probably be pretty noisy, but a good hashing out of some of this stuff now and then seems like a healthy move.
posted by cortex at 1:45 PM on July 9

Nevercalm, except that nigger has been partially reclaimed into the black and pop culture vernacular. Which to my mind makes it a lot less loaded than it was in the 1970s. It's all context however. When I speak of offensiveness, I'm meaning gut reaction to the word before context comes into it. Words alone mean nothing, but the hateful intent with which they are used are what you remember when you hear them again, especially in the case of words that you never hear without hateful intent.

The last couple of times I heard racial epithets used with hateful intent were when a guy said he was going to get some gooks to butcher his deer for him, and another time when a guy in 7-11 called the Sikh behind the counter a sand nigger. Both times I kind of wanted to hit the guy, but the first time the guy had a gun on his hip, and the second time I was on camera (and the guy looked tougher than me). However, I've heard "nigger please" like a million times since without any kind of hate attached. Cunt in print or British indie film, not a big deal. But in an American accent? I've almost never heard it without some horrible hate filled context like the time my college roomate's girlfriend broke up with him and he got drunk for two weeks straight and kept talking about flying out and killing her dog, slashing her car tires and destroying all her clothes. (he didn't)
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:48 PM on July 9

It's a word, and not one that any history I'm aware of invests it with the same power as "nigger."

Really? You don't know that there's a history of vaginas being associated with oppression, violence and slavery? There is. A long one.

Yeah, with my long history in the northeast and attending liberal schools, being fairly far-left, the whole nine, I think I may have heard something about that. Maybe a few times, even.

I'm not looking to get in a battle here, but when I think "nigger," I think of white cops with dogs attacking innocent black men just walking down the street, and of those cops saying something to the effect of "Nigger, you should have stayed home." Or of slave-owning men saying it to a terrified black man with a bit in his mouth and whose family has been sold part and parcel. You know, millions of actual concrete occurrences over hundreds of years, being pretty much the preeminent word to use when referring to black men in the USA from like 1600 (? Languagehat??) to....choose a date....1968? 2008? Take your pick.

I am unaware of any pattern of usage that would be analogous re:cunt or twat. Which was my fairly clearly stated point.

Are women oppressed in this country? Of course, even today. And all over the world. But...as I said, I'd like to be shown how "cunt" can be talked about as even on the same plane as "nigger." Or "kike," which has a similar history. "Faggot" I'm seeing my gay friends take back on a fairly daily basis, like my black friends seem to have taken back "nigger." But you better be gay or black (respectively) when you say them. I'd think, in the context of it being used as an epithet, that "bitch" should be far more radioactive.

Thanks, tho.
posted by nevercalm at 1:48 PM on July 9 [6 favorites]

ArtW, I knew it would be contentious, I actually expected a lot more vitriol. This is a much better result than I expected.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:49 PM on July 9

I could murder a pint.
posted by stinkycheese at 1:49 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

Just so long as you know the answer is "no", and always will be.
posted by Artw at 1:50 PM on July 9

Maybe this can clear things up a bit?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:51 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

Brandon, that particular asterisk was used more to preserve the cunt/cant pun than anything. Also to keep the word off of the RSS feed. After more inside I stopped bowdlerizing.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:53 PM on July 9

Would any of the people who are "edgy" or casual about using cunt and twat use them if the discussion had taken place in real life and jessamyn, ThePinkSuperhero and other female members of mefi that you liked/wanted to like you were present?

If not, your use of the word seems dangerously close to Internet Tough Guy syndrome: you're only edgy and rebellious on your keyboard.

Look, I'm all for creative use of language. I plan to teach my daughter that sometimes a curse word or off-color word is quite appropriate, and that if you're artful about it, you can get away with saying all kinds of stuff.

But we've had more than one lengthy discussion on the grey about boyzone, with many respected female members of the site pleading for a toning down and reminders from wise people of all genders that we should all strive to be more conscious of our speech and its impact on others, so I don't understand the flippancy and the disingenuous "it's just a word" stuff. In the beginning was the Word -- so obviously words are very important and not just funny sounds or interesting assemblies of lines on pages and screens.

Please, just try a little bit harder, that's all I'm asking.
posted by lord_wolf at 1:55 PM on July 9 [10 favorites]

MONTY, YOU TERRIBLE CUNT.
posted by fire&wings at 1:55 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

nevercalm, I don't think you really need a long history behind the use of a slur for it to recall the entire painful history of the oppression it represents, and for it to register as deeply offensive. I'm hard-pressed to think of any freshly coined slurs, here.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:56 PM on July 9

I think it is sweet when you septics occasionally remember your puritan roots.
posted by zemblamatic at 1:57 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

Preview is a pretty useful thing....

I addressed that "nigger" is being reclaimed, but walk (as a white guy) into the neighborhood that generated this whole discussion and call someone a nigger, and see how fast you become part of the sidewalk.

Yes, context is everything. I don't necessarily like calling women cunts (because I know how angry a word it is, or can be) but I think that calling rich white men "cunts" or "twats" and calling a group of drummers in the park they're trying to evict "niggers" is not even remotely on equal footing. Consider "those cunts are trying to get those niggers out of the park" vs "those cunts are trying to get those drummers out of the park."

And again, I think the whole thing is colored by my reading of a decent amount of literature where the word just isn't that bad, and nowhere near as loaded as some of what Jessamyn invoked.

Also, "Jessamyn" registers as a misspelling as I type this. Is that a Firefox thing or a Metafilter thing? Bad, bad...
posted by nevercalm at 1:58 PM on July 9

I think the use of the superscript can help us all here.

"Wow, did you see what that cunt^UK just did?" is no need for offense, but if someone says "I bet you didn't even read the link you stupid cunt^US," then you know they are a misogynist. Similarly, it OK to say "These niggers^{I'm black} are always hanging around my apartment," but if you say "We should round up the niggers^bigot and shoot them," then that person should probably be warned, and then banned if a repeat offender. "Faggots^{queer power!} know how to party," can make us all beam with pride at our wonderful inclusive community, while "I don't like those faggots^homophobe," marks the poster as one to be shunned.

If we'd all follow these simple steps MetaFilter could become a much better place. This time it can be different.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:00 PM on July 9 [48 favorites]

yeh and fanny means bum apparently. How offensive to women is that?
posted by bonaldi at 2:00 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

Yes, yes, yes but what about the triple-cunted hooker?
posted by Skorgu at 2:00 PM on July 9

cortex wrote: As an aside, I'm having trouble thinking of an example of 'faggot' being used in a neutral or positive way, unlike 'queer' or 'gay' - perhaps another transatlantic difference?

For a long time, Dan Savage's letters opened with the salutation, "Hey faggot".

I have no idea who he is. A queer, I'll wager? That last sentence raises an interesting point - I have no idea whether people will read it as suggesting that I'm a homophobe or gay or neither. Whereas I'm probably recognisably British online, so folk are more likely to cut me slack where 'cunt' is concerned.

xod writes 'So if I want to really make the people of the UK cringe, what's the word?'

I honestly can't think of one, but 'cunt' would certainly do it in polite/elderly company. If I said it in front of my Nan she'd beat me to death with her walking sticks.

Stewriffic writes 'And also? When the words referring to womenly parts are used as an insult to men, why do you think they're insulting? Because they're calling men WOMEN! '

Is this true? I'm not sure it is, in anything other than what you might call a residual sense. Does calling someone a 'stupid fuck/cock/shit' carry any implication that you're comparing them to sex/penis/excreta? It seems that the words have power, or whatever you want to call it, as a result of their original negative meanings, but now they're just pretty much angry noises of varying degrees. (Obviously this doesn't hold true if you're directly calling a woman a cunt, but still...)

lord_wolf writes 'Would any of the people who are "edgy" or casual about using cunt and twat use them if the discussion had taken place in real life and jessamyn, ThePinkSuperhero and other female members of mefi that you liked/wanted to like you were present?'

If we were at a meetup in Glasgow, I wouldn't think twice until they gasped in shock (which I kind of doubt those particular users would?). At a meetup in the US, I wouldn't use the word at all. Which seems to be the point - on MetaFilter, we're pretty much in the virtual US, so it seems civil to avoid directing the word at other users.
posted by jack_mo at 2:01 PM on July 9

Firefox thing. MeFi doesn't have its own spellcheck anymore. Hasn't for a long time.
posted by cortex at 2:02 PM on July 9

ArtW, What answer? There isn't a question on the table as far as I know.
posted by BrotherCaine at 2:02 PM on July 9

As jack_mo mentioned up-thread when people from Scotland go down south there is often a need to decuntify speech. I understand that it means different things in different places and will modify my language accordingly.

Whether people on MeFi accept it or not, it is as common in some circles as 'shite' or 'wanker'- it is on that level of non-offensiveness to a sizeable proportion of the urban population of the UK. There is also the interesting thing that some people will call someone 'a sound cunt' meaning that they are a decent or good person so where that fits into the narrow American definition of the word, fuck knows. This exists far beyond the pages of an Irvine Welsh novel. It exists across all social classes and situations. I have heard both men and women use it with impunity.

I am sure that in past comments on MeFi I have used it in a throwaway manner. I would probably be less likely to do so in the future if it is considered to be so offensive by others. For context, if you look at a big predominantly British community on the web, such as b3ta, you will see it everywhere. In many parts of the UK, the word is not a big deal.
posted by ClanvidHorse at 2:03 PM on July 9 [3 favorites]

zemblamatic writes 'I think it is sweet when you septics occasionally remember your puritan roots.'

COLONIALIST!
posted by jack_mo at 2:04 PM on July 9

Would any of the people who are "edgy" or casual about using cunt and twat use them if the discussion had taken place in real life and jessamyn, ThePinkSuperhero and other female members of mefi that you liked/wanted to like you were present?

Depends what kind of conversation it was, TBH. I'd absolutely use the word 'twat' in person when in casual conversation with people I didn't suspect of having a stick up their arse.
posted by Artw at 2:04 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

From Cunt: A Declaration of Independence:

On the choice occasions popes and politicians directly refer to female genitalia, the term "vagina" is discreetly engaged.

If you will be so kind, say "vagina" out loud a few times. Strip away the meaning and listen solely to the sound. It resonates from the roof of your mouth.

A "vagina" could be an economy car..the Chrysler Vagina!"

Or a rodent: "Next on Prairie Safari, you'll see a wily little silver-tailed vagina outwit a voracious pair of ospreys."

Say "cunt" out loud, again stripping away the meaning. The word resonates from the depths of your gut. It sounds like something you definitely don't want to tangle with in a drunken brawl in a dark alley.

A "cunt" could be a serious weather condition: "Next on Nightline, an exclusive report on the devastation in Kansas when last night's thunder cunt, with winds exceeding 122 miles an hour, ripped through the state."

posted by ahughey at 2:04 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

What if we had an application and review process for the usage? Like, you'd have to plan ahead for deploying the word, but then at least we'd know it was all on the level.
posted by everichon at 2:05 PM on July 9

Ambrosia Voyeur, reasonably freshly coined slur: "breeder". I particularly hate it when I get called that, but mostly because I got a vasectomy in my early twenties.
posted by BrotherCaine at 2:05 PM on July 9

Now that I think of it, the term "drum circle" is pretty damned offensive, too. (I'd hit it - rythmically.)^{Favorites whore}
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:06 PM on July 9

xod: "So if I want to really make the people of the UK cringe, what's the word?"

Shower?

I find it interesting that, on the whole, Americans^* tend to expect people to use language with a view to respecting the cultural sensitivities of Americans, while those of other nationalities tend to be happy for people to use the language that would be appropriate in the country the speaker/writer lives and accept that some parts of that language would be inappropriate if they were to use them.

^*I would like to write this so that I wasn't referring to specific American people, many of whom I like, but the people of America as a homogenous group. Just pretend I have the language skills to do that, would you? Please?
posted by dg at 2:07 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

Would any of the people who are "edgy" or casual about using cunt and twat use them if the discussion had taken place in real life and jessamyn, ThePinkSuperhero and other female members of mefi that you liked/wanted to like you were present?

Depends what kind of conversation it was, TBH. I'd absolutely use the word 'twat' in person when in casual conversation with people I didn't suspect of having a stick up their arse.

I've used "cunt" the same way. But only if they didn't have a stick up their fanny. Or arse. Ass, sorry. Whatever.
posted by nevercalm at 2:08 PM on July 9

"So if I want to really make the people of the UK cringe, what's the word"

No word, just act like the world should be arranged for your convenience.
posted by Artw at 2:08 PM on July 9 [6 favorites]

ArtW, What answer? There isn't a question on the table as far as I know.

Well just so long as you're making no requests I guess we'll have no problem.
posted by Artw at 2:10 PM on July 9

Would any of the people who are "edgy" or casual about using cunt and twat use them if the discussion had taken place in real life and jessamyn, ThePinkSuperhero and other female members of mefi that you liked/wanted to like you were present?

Well, kind of the point of this conversation is there are different uses among different cultures. If one's culture didn't find the use of the word cunt to be particularly offensive, it seems like one might use it without realizing the implications for other people who might be offended.
I don't see it so much as a real life vs. internet thing at all.

If not, your use of the word seems dangerously close to Internet Tough Guy syndrome: you're only edgy and rebellious on your keyboard.


It's weird to me that you think only men use the word cunt on the internet, and for only the reason that they want to appear edgy and tough. It's also sort of weird to me that some people would only avoid using it because they want certain girls to like them. If you're the kind of person who uses the word as misogynistic slur, that doesn't change just because girls can't hear you.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:11 PM on July 9

If we were at a meetup in Glasgow, I wouldn't think twice until they gasped in shock (which I kind of doubt those particular users would?). At a meetup in the US, I wouldn't use the word at all. Which seems to be the point - on MetaFilter, we're pretty much in the virtual US, so it seems civil to avoid directing the word at other users.

I have probably used it overmuch in America then, oblivious to the offence being caused.

I also don't see how "cunting" as in a "cunting mess he's made of this" would fit into the uber-narrow US interpretation either.
posted by bonaldi at 2:12 PM on July 9

But we've had more than one lengthy discussion on the grey about boyzone, with many respected female members of the site pleading for a toning down and reminders from wise people of all genders that we should all strive to be more conscious of our speech and its impact on others, so I don't understand the flippancy and the disingenuous "it's just a word" stuff.

Repeated for emphasis. Many people in this thread seem to be confusing the use of these terms in a comic sense with their haphazard or casual use. This isn't a discussion about gender equality or parity. Calling a woman a 'c---' is astronomically more offensive than calling a man a 'dick'. The reason for this is that our culture felt the need to invent ways to massively offend women solely for being women but felt no need to invent a similar insult for men.

Having said this, I have to admit that I've used the C word in one comment on metatalk that I can remember, and I used it deliberately in a humorous and shocking context and when it was obvious that the term was being directed at men. In my opinion, to do this robs the word of its power.

But truth be told I regret even using it there. It was a sloppy bomb-throw because I lacked confidence in the rest of my comment being able to get the point across in the way I wanted, and if I could edit the comment, I'd remove the word and replace it with something else. But truth be told I've never actually uttered the c- word in real life.

So I'm on the side of saying that at least in American culture, the term has no place and no acceptable use, and I for one won't be using it or it's T-cousin anymore.

And for the "it's just a word" crowd. They are all words. Like "I love you" or "I hate you". The point of words is to communicate something. What does c- communicate?
posted by Pastabagel at 2:12 PM on July 9 [8 favorites]

but walk (as a white guy) into the neighborhood that generated this whole discussion and call someone a nigger, and see how fast you become part of the sidewalk.

This reminds me of a funny story when a white friend of mine was walking through East Palo Alto and pointed out a raccoon to his girlfriend while shouting out coon. He had to talk fast after that to avoid a beatdown. Eh, guess you had to be there.
posted by BrotherCaine at 2:15 PM on July 9

Five years later, I'm still not really sure what 'cunt' means to Americans, or exactly how it causes that offence.

It means "vagina"--in the sense that "I think that women are bad and this thing I am describing is as bad as women."

Now do you see why people take offense at the word?
posted by Ironmouth at 2:15 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

zemblamatic writes 'I think it is sweet when you septics occasionally remember your puritan roots.'

COLONIALIST!

COLONIST!
posted by yeti at 2:16 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

"So if I want to really make the people of the UK cringe, what's the word?"
Dentist.

You can argue semantics and feminist critique all you want here, but the truth of it is that the word isn't as offensive to us Brits as it is to you Yanks. It hasn't the same anti-female connotations as it does stateside. It's a strong word and one which is only pulled out on special occasions, but for most people, it's one of a series of genitalia based insults.

Anyway - In the spirit of entente-cordiale, I'll do you a deal. I'll try not to say it if you try not to get overly upset if I accidentally do say it.

Also, If it's good enough for Jarvis...
posted by seanyboy at 2:16 PM on July 9 [4 favorites]

BTW, I don't care if or how people use the word(s). What they're actually getting at is pretty obvious from their general tone, and I'm perfectly fine with people outing themselves as Scottish, or jerky, or feminist, or whatever. I just modulate how and if I respond to them. It's much better for my state of mind than to get automatically ruffled every time the word cunt shows up.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:16 PM on July 9

from here:

Pussy can be used as a noun that labels another person as weak or timid. Attacking another guy’s manhood by calling him a pussy is extremely offensive and completely inappropriate. More and more is “pussy” falling under this definition, and the label of a pussy is a direct shot to his testosterone. In this case, the word takes on the same meaning as the word “chicken,” except it is far more vulgar. Although the definitions of pussy are defined in terms of gender, they don’t necessarily have to be. In this case, a rare instance can occur where a woman is called a pussy in terms of her cowardly actions.

Basically, calling a man a pussy is saying he doesn't conform to what's being seen as positive qualities of stereotypical male characteristics--strength and courage. Rather, a pussy is a man who exhibits the negative, female-linked stereotype of being weak and docile.
posted by Stewriffic at 2:17 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

ClanvidHorse writes 'There is also the interesting thing that some people will call someone "a sound cunt" meaning that they are a decent or good person so where that fits into the narrow American definition of the word, fuck knows.'

That sense and 'daft cunt' for someone faintly annoying are the uses I've picked up from living in Scotland. A bit like 'the dog's bollocks' meaning something good in the South of England, I suppose. Do people do that in the US? 'That lady is a great wang!'.

dg writes 'Shower?'

As in 'shower of cunts'? Another good Scottishism.

bonaldi writes 'I also don't see how "cunting" as in a "cunting mess he's made of this" would fit into the uber-narrow US interpretation either.'

I think the lesson here is that we're better than Americans at swearing. (Although 'motherfucker' is pretty good. And 'shiiiiiiiiiiit' like they say on The Wire.)
posted by jack_mo at 2:17 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

jack_mo - I quite like it when they pronounce "bitch" as "bee-hatch".
posted by Artw at 2:21 PM on July 9

Would any of the people who are "edgy" or casual about using cunt and twat use them if the discussion had taken place in real life and jessamyn, ThePinkSuperhero and other female members of mefi that you liked/wanted to like you were present?

I'd be more likely to use the word in spoken conversation than to write it in MetaFilter for the reason that is less likely to be misconstrued. If I was talking to jessamyn, ThePinkSuperhero et al., they would know how British and inoffensive I am, and interpret my language accordingly. They'd have the sense to interpret the words I use in the context of it being me using them. I'd be twatting and cunting away and leave them thinking "who is this charming English gentleman?" On Metafilter, however, my words stand alone and are bound to be interpreted in the context of how the reader uses that vocabulary. If I use the same language that I do in spoken language, I'd come across less favourably, because people bring there own baggage and attach it to my words in a way that does not happen with the spoken word.
In fact, I'm probably not careful enough with this kind of thing, so whilst people who know me in real life think I'm a nice chap, I'm sure Metafilter thinks I'm a bit of a dick.
posted by nowonmai at 2:21 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

Ironmouth : BTW. We understand the whole "I think that women are bad and this thing I am describing is as bad as women." argument just fine. You're not explaining anything new there at all. Fact is that a whole bunch of women based words are used as insults. If you stopped bitching and stopped acting like a washer-woman, then you'd realise that the word is bad to you because culturally, you've been taught that it's a bad word. For me, not so much. This doesn't mean I don't understand the whole "words have power" concept. It just means I'm less upset by that particular word.
posted by seanyboy at 2:22 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

yeh and fanny means bum apparently. How offensive to women is that?


Yes "fanny" is unisex on this side of the pond.

So far, I've made six trips to the British isles, I've read and seen plently of British/Irish books and movies...I have NEVER heard or read "You fanny!" the way one would hear "You cunt/twat!" in the states.
posted by brujita at 2:23 PM on July 9

In the U.K., they call it "Twatter" and it ain't nuthin but a thang.

"If flagging is for pulling comments"

Careful, this means something else in the UK.
posted by Eideteker at 2:24 PM on July 9

Don't make me start with the Clawfinger lyrics.
posted by Artw at 2:24 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

A bit like 'the dog's bollocks' meaning something good in the South of England, I suppose. Do people do that in the US? 'That lady is a great wang!'.

I can think of plenty of examples of positive ("s/he's got some balls") and negative ("grow a pair") uses for testicles-as-metaphor, but I'm coming up blank for positive cock and vagina comparisons off the top of my head.
posted by cortex at 2:24 PM on July 9

Jack_mo, take that back you baby sodomizing, mother fisting, tardfucking, anal pustule or I might have to break out the mildly offensive stuff.
posted by BrotherCaine at 2:25 PM on July 9

Note: none of my comments or sentiments are directed towards UK mefites. I totally understand that the words under discussion have different meanings and impact in your society. I've read my Welsh, Ennis, etc.

I'd absolutely use the word 'twat' in person when in casual conversation with people I didn't suspect of having a stick up their arse.

Well, you're hardcore. I live in the US, and in real life , I know of no male held in high esteem by women who tosses words like "twat" about casually in conversations with them. "Cunt" is right out.

It's weird to me that you think only men use the word cunt on the internet, and for only the reason that they want to appear edgy and tough.

Well, again, given that we've had discussions about boyzone before and I was speaking specifically about that thread, I'd be mighty surprised if it were the case that female members of Mefi were throwing the words around in that conversation. If there were women using the words "twat" and "cunt" in the thread that inspired this MeTa, I'd love to know of it.

But, man...I don't understand why this is so difficult . I can totally see why thehmsbeagle and others often throw their hands up and walk away after boyzone discussions.
posted by lord_wolf at 2:26 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

"...it's not like you'd go to tea with the Queen and say "Pass me the marmalade , you old cunt"

Of course not. I don't even like marmalade.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:26 PM on July 9 [11 favorites]

"So if I want to really make the people of the UK cringe, what's the word?"

Bush.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:27 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

Artw, I've not really seen bee-hatch, bee-atch or bee-otch sometimes, but bee-hatch, not so much.
posted by BrotherCaine at 2:29 PM on July 9

Yankzone.
posted by Artw at 2:29 PM on July 9 [4 favorites]

"...it's not like you'd go to tea with the Queen and say "Pass me the marmalade , you old cunt"

Of course not. She's got servants for that.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:29 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

Yes "fanny" is unisex on this side of the pond.

But it means something else in Australia, right? Particularly when used in the phrase "Rootin' around in her fanny pack".

But, man...I don't understand why this is so difficult . I can totally see why thehmsbeagle and others often throw their hands up and walk away after boyzone discussions.

Don't do it man, it's not worth it!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:30 PM on July 9

But, man...I don't understand why this is so difficult . I can totally see why thehmsbeagle and others often throw their hands up and walk away after boyzone discussions.

Yup.
posted by Stewriffic at 2:31 PM on July 9

This reminds me of a funny story when a white friend of mine was walking through East Palo Alto and pointed out a raccoon to his girlfriend while shouting out coon. He had to talk fast after that to avoid a beatdown. Eh, guess you had to be there.

My husband and I were taking the subway home from rehearsal one night when I brought up the possibility of hanging curtains upstage to create a backstage area. In theatre, curtains are called "blacks". So there I was on the subway, loudly discussing whether or not we should "hang some blacks". Took me a minute to figure out why the woman across from me was looking at me funny.
posted by Evangeline at 2:33 PM on July 9 [5 favorites]

Ahem.

I said YANKZONE. The conversation is over. Anyone who disagrees with me should feel very ashamed NOW.
posted by Artw at 2:33 PM on July 9 [3 favorites]

We should all strive to be citizens of the world. But you can't be too concerned about offending this cunt or that cunt, or else you'll sound like a twat.

"Leave literal cunt alone!"
So should we not pull back the literal hood? I don't want to overstimulate anyone.
posted by Eideteker at 2:33 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

I'm not going to delve into the sociopolitical etymologies of the word in question, nor do I want to focus on which user(s) said what, but I want to say this about censorship:

One of the values of a permissive, low or no censorship communication environment is that people will reveal themselves and their values - and this is a benefit and not a hazard. Free speech is very much a double-edged sword - but in the end all it does is reveal who each of us are.

That's the thing about communication. You can't actually "unpublish" things. You can't really "unsay" things. It's been said. Erasing it only protects a few people from being "offended" - people who should probably learn how to deal with being offended in a more constructive manner than resorting to censorship - which as simply outlined above is a fool's errand and the worst, laziest psychological sinecure and bandaid. The thought still exists, it's been said, people will remember that it was said long after it was erased.

Let fools hang themselves. It makes it easier to keep mean or stupid bastards out of your life.

You're offended be some fool's bigotry? Who cares!? Be offended! You'll get over it - and in the meantime you've learned more about your social environment, information that can be useful to you. If you're surprised or concerned about the person who offended you - talk to them! Use your own free speech. Don't eliminate theirs.

So, you use your own free speech to help convince others that you do indeed find it hurtful. Those that get it will get it. The rest you ignore.
posted by loquacious at 2:33 PM on July 9 [2 favorites]

Jack_mo, take that back you baby sodomizing, mother fisting, tardfucking, anal pustule or I might have to break out the mildly offensive stuff.
That's not mildly offensive. The Profanisaurus is mildly offensive. :)

I have NEVER heard or read "You fanny!" the way one would hear "You cunt/twat!" in the states.
I hear people getting called a fanny all the time, but again it's not gendered.
posted by bonaldi at 2:33 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

A few weeks ago, I was innocently telling my (British) boss how excited I was to watch some movies over the weekend that I had rented, especially Fanny and Alexander.

He almost choked on his tongue.

Hey, sometimes I forget too.
posted by triggerfinger at 2:36 PM on July 9

When dissing someone for inferiority, the go-to comparisons are
-effeminacy (pussy, faggot [which comes from a word for an old woman, itself], bitch, cunt)
-stupidity (moron, retard, idiot)
-other inborn inferiority (nigger, other ethnic slurs)

Calling someone a dick or a cock, on the other hand, usually speaks to their arrogance, inconsideration of others, meanness, or recklessness, doesn't it? unless it's modified, like "stupid dick" means arrogant+stupid=foolish.

I think the use of the gender-based terms as insults pretty closely aligns with a masculine-dominant power structure. Dicks= too much power, Pussies=too little. Language that reinforces this women=weakness tradition is bothersome to me. Pussies are strong, my sistas!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:37 PM on July 9 [7 favorites]

that particular asterisk was used more to preserve the cunt/cant pun than anything. Also to keep the word off of the RSS feed.

Your perfectly sane explanation does nothing to ease the intense loathing I have for that convention.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:38 PM on July 9 [1 favorite]

My husband and I were taking the subway home from rehearsal one night when I brought up the possibility of hanging curtains upstage to create a backstage area. In theatre, curtains are called "blacks". So there I was on the subway, loudly discussing whether or not we should "hang some blacks". Took me a minute to figure out why the woman across from me was looking at me funny.

That's awesome! I have a similar one, only a bit worse....I work occasionally in a studio where they tape a very political black talk show. It looks like Charlie Rose, nothing but a table with blacks all around.

So the host was hanging out and shooting the shit with his guests after taping, talking to some fairly prominent black leaders. We had to strike the blacks and set up for the next morning. The head walked onstage, clapped his hands together and said - totally without thinking - "Alright, let's get these blacks outta here and set up for tomorrow."

Talk about awkward pauses......
posted by nevercalm at 2:41 PM on July 9 [5 favorites]