"Wow, look at the Boobies!"

I dunno. What is "boyzone"? Is any reference to or depiction of a woman's genitals or secondary sexual characteristics necessarily "boyzone"? Where is the line drawn? I mean, it's goofy, and it has pictures of breasts–but I'm having a hard time seeing the harm in it.
posted by Mister_A at 12:26 PM on July 10

That shit is more like "Dumbzone."
posted by The Straightener at 12:27 PM on July 10 [6 favorites]

I think there are just too many community members who want it to be boyzone here. There are some fabulous people on Metafilter who speak up against boyzone crap, and who choose to be both inclusive of and respectful towards everyone, but apparently there aren't enough of these gems.

Maybe someday it won't be OK, but my hope is dissolving more each day.
posted by Stewriffic at 12:28 PM on July 10

It's actually more of a memepool-nostalgia zone.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:30 PM on July 10 [4 favorites]

How is this not a "Boyzone" post?

What if they're pictures of, er, plumper gentlemen?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:32 PM on July 10

I think "can you tell unenhanced breasts from enhanced breasts" is an interesting question. I am at work, and so I haven't read the thread, but if there isn't a lot of "OMG boobz, ha ha women are sex objects" going on, then I am reluctant to say that the fact that that link is an FPP is, in and of itself, creating a hostile environment for women on MeFi.
posted by prefpara at 12:33 PM on July 10

I think there are just too many community members who want it to be boyzone here.

I think there are just too many community members who define any reference to female anatomy whatsoever to be boyzone. How can this site be about best of the web if boobies are completely verboten? (Note: I didn't say that site is best of the web.)
posted by danOstuporStar at 12:35 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

Would it be "girlzone" if it showed two sets of heads and asked which one was the toupee?
posted by smackfu at 12:36 PM on July 10 [2 favorites]

I, personally, have no strong feelings one way or another (I can't click the link from work),

Also, I wish people would leave the MetaTalk posts to people who actually care enough to post themselves.
posted by smackfu at 12:37 PM on July 10 [8 favorites]

Is any reference to or depiction of a woman's genitals or secondary sexual characteristics necessarily "boyzone"?

Not necessarily. However, the post isn't a "reference" to women's "secondary sexual characteristics". It's a link to a site that exclusively displays women's breasts. It's is pretty much the dictionary definition of boyzone.
posted by Pastabagel at 12:38 PM on July 10

It's is pretty much the dictionary definition of boyzone.

Well, not exactly:

Boyzone is a popular Irish boy band of the 1990s that reformed in 2007. They had major success in the UK and Ireland and differing levels of success in parts of Europe and Asia with six #1 hit singles in the UK. By 2007 they had sold over 15 million records.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:40 PM on July 10 [16 favorites]

It's pretty much a terrible post on multiple axes. It's not interesting, it's arguably sexist, and it's old news. I just figure not_on_display is exploring the limits of what he can post, and maybe trying to see whether he has any special privileges here....
posted by dersins at 12:41 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

It's a link to a site that exclusively displays women's breasts. It's is pretty much the dictionary definition of boyzone.

Even if the site does not display them gratuitously? The quiz format is, um, irreverent at best, but I can imagine a website with a more restrained presentation of the same basic question. So, for example, would a website that simply posted pictures of enhanced and unenhanced breasts in order to demonstrate the visible differences (or lack thereof) make for a "boyzone" FPP?
posted by prefpara at 12:43 PM on July 10

I can imagine it being a worthwhile post if there was some context. There are pictures of boobies all over the Web, some simply medical, some on sites meant for women, some on clothing sites, and some, like this, that are just meant for leering at. If the post was "Here's the boobies on thew Web, and look how different Web sites address this part of the anatomy, and look how strange and varied our cultural understand of breasts is," then I expect people wouldn't have responded as badly.

Instead, it's essentiall a nudge and a snicker, and that does feel sort of boyzone to me, even if I nonetheless plan to check out the site when I get home.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:44 PM on July 10

What we need is some Dogzone where you have to figure out which are the Neuticals and which are the real low hangers.
posted by The Straightener at 12:44 PM on July 10 [2 favorites]

"Boyzone" isn't in the online version of the Oxford English Dictionary. Perhaps this discussion would be more likely to go well if you define what you mean by "boyzone" and why it should be banned from Metafilter? The word obviously means something to you, but it might well mean something different to other people—and certainly means nothing to me—so there is a real danger of mutual misunderstanding.
posted by nowonmai at 12:47 PM on July 10

"Boizone" means something else entirely at the Mine Shaft on Tuesday nights.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:49 PM on July 10 [4 favorites]

It's a matter of degree. A post such as that once in a while is not, in itself, bz. As part of a persistent pattern that is crossed into over some shifting, amorphous threshold, it may be. Flag it and move on.

Personally, I think claims of bz are better supported by analysing the discussion around links of all kinds moreso than the links themselves.

(I refuse to preview).
posted by mimo at 12:51 PM on July 10

the Boyzone Ivy
you stepped in it
posted by grobstein at 12:51 PM on July 10 [2 favorites]

Fact is, many women have had their breasts augmented surgically, usually for reasons of vanity or commerce, and I think it's OK to poke a little fun at the practice.

And can we drop the "boyzone" bullshit? Say "sexist" if that's what you mean.
posted by Mister_A at 12:52 PM on July 10 [9 favorites]

Equal time.
posted by Dave Faris at 12:52 PM on July 10

It's pretty boyzone, where boys=13 year olds who like to snicker. Or at least I think it is, since I didn't click the link, assuming that it was probably not long enough to read. But, you know, whatever. It may not be best of the web but an argument could be made for it being classic of the web or something. My outrage meter is dialed way down lately - neither cunts nor twats nor boobs can really stir it up.

The memepool nostalgia in the ensuing thread, though, is kind of cool and maybe we should have a meta thread about memepool instead.
posted by mygothlaundry at 12:52 PM on July 10

nowonmai: See here. Also here. Its even on the Mefi Wiki. We've talked a lot about it here already. Perhaps reading those older posts will help you understand the context.
posted by anastasiav at 12:53 PM on July 10

Beans.
posted by spicynuts at 12:55 PM on July 10

Ironically, pointing out that single post gets it way more attention than it would have gotten otherwise.
posted by smackfu at 12:55 PM on July 10

Boyzone boyzone boyzone boyzone? Boyzone, boyzone boyzone boyzone boyzone boyzone boyzone. Boyzone! Boyzone: boyzone, boyzone, boyzone, boyzone, boyzone. Boyzone? Boyzone. Boyzone, boyzone.

Boyzone, boyzone, boyzone.

Boyzone.
posted by kbanas at 12:55 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

Dallas County officials spar over 'black hole' comment
posted by smackfu at 12:58 PM on July 10 [4 favorites]

I didn't read the post because I knew it wouldn't interest me, but I'm not offended that it's there. I trust the admins' judgment, and I figure if they didn't delete it, it must have some modicum of merit as a post.

If boys (or girls) want to look at boobies that's their prerogative. Metafilter has plenty of room for all kinds of posts, and we as members are free to pick and choose which ones we read and click through. Yes, we're a community, but we can't please everyone all of the time and we can't guarantee that no one will ever be offended by something.

I think of individual posts and their resulting threads as pockets of conversation in a large meeting room. If you don't like the conversation taking place in one spot, you can wander around and find a conversation you do like. If a particular group of people are standing around talking about boobies, the rest of us can talk about something else, but it doesn't serve any purpose to tell the boobie-talkers "You can't talk about that!"

Also, boobie talk isn't exclusive to "boyzone" behavior. I'm a woman, and I can attest to the fact that women talk about boobies, and snark about "real vs. fake," just as much as men do.
posted by amyms at 1:00 PM on July 10 [19 favorites]

Also, I'd like to point out how the site in question was recontextualized in the mefi fpp compared to the memepool post. On mempool, the post is about the guy who created Solitaire who also happens to express some admiration for this silly boob site.

But here, the focus of the fpp is the boob site, and the programmer's admiration is provided as an endorsement of it.
posted by Pastabagel at 1:01 PM on July 10

Boobies!
posted by never used baby shoes at 1:02 PM on July 10

My feeling was that it was a riff on hot-or-not, marginally amusing, and had a bunch of people saying "awwww" about memepool which was probably the best thing about it. The thread did not devolve into stupid sexist nonsense, imo, which made me happy. For a site that's made up of mostly men, most of whom have at least some sensibility that the site is not ONLY men, I thought that post was clearly marked for what it was, not sneering in tone and didn't spawn a toxic thread. It wasn't flagged terribly much, though it was flagged some.

Also, I have no perspective. Perhaps the fellas want to chime in here?
posted by jessamyn at 1:05 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

For a place that claims to be The Best of the Web the ratio of boob posts to non-boob posts is surprisingly low, considering this is the internet and all.

Do we have to do this every time there’s a boob post? Can we not just accept that for every Star Wars and Tron we’re gonna have a Porky’s once in a while? Is that not ok? Some people like boobs, occasionally we’re gonna talk about them and look at them and, some day, if Ray Kurzweil is correct, we’re gonna get to see ‘em jiggle in 3D right on our holographic iPhones and we don’t need an OMG BOYZONE! every goddamn time. Of course we don’t want Metafilter to become Maxim Magazine but one boob-related post every couple of weeks does not mean we’re a boyzone. Some times there’s posts that only interest New Yorkers, or animal lovers, or animal lovers from New York. That doesn’t turn us into NewYorkAnimalLoverZone.

The next time there’s a kitten-related Metafilter post I’m gonna complain about it. Not because I’ll have strong feelings, but because somebody else might and I just wanna make a call-out because, well, I have no idea. Because it’s something That Must be Done, I guess. Because we gotta complain about every goddamn thing here.

Then again, Mr. on_display gets special treatment from me 'cause our parents once watched the same boring episode of The Tonight Show. But not together, 'cuz that'd be gross.
posted by bondcliff at 1:08 PM on July 10 [14 favorites]

Frankly, "best of the web" is easy to misread as "breast of the web."

I'm all for flagging on moving on. "Sexism" is a flagging option, and the mods can decide if they agree.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:14 PM on July 10

I'm a woman, I played, I commented in the thread and I didn't think it was anywhere near The Best of the Web. Entertaining though, so what's the big deal? Boyzone, shmoyzone.
posted by sunshinesky at 1:16 PM on July 10 [3 favorites]

Perhaps the fellas want to chime in here?

As a gay man, it's not the boyzone I was hoping for.
posted by ericb at 1:19 PM on July 10 [10 favorites]

Butt, Dave Faris' 'Equal time' post (above) makes up for it!
posted by ericb at 1:21 PM on July 10

I'm just amazed it was not a double post. (No pun intended)
posted by marxchivist at 1:27 PM on July 10

Here's a simple definition for y'all:

Boyzone - community behavior which discourages female participation in the site.

There. Now you can argue about that instead of the merit of the post.
posted by team lowkey at 1:27 PM on July 10 [4 favorites]

Definately not a post to get worked up about, not that that will stop anybody.

Perhaps we should be grateful that all the metatak threads these days are being made by people with no strong feelings either way. Might at least stop any account closing this time.
posted by Reggie Knoble at 1:29 PM on July 10

The memepool nostalgia in the ensuing thread, though, is kind of cool

Yeah, I went into the thread all prepared to be outraged, but the fact that it quickly mutated into a memepool thread reassured and amused me. We've come a long way, ~~baby~~ person!
posted by languagehat at 1:30 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

No, it is not a boyzone post. That thought didn't even occur me.

How sexist are you to assume that a post about boobs is strictly for guys?
posted by frecklefaerie at 1:31 PM on July 10 [5 favorites]

Also, to expand on my non-hatred for the post. If you spend some time clicking around the fakeornot site, it's just photos of all sorts of breasts. Some are ripped form porno-looking stuff, but a lot are just sort of ... normal looking breasts. So while I'm sure there's an angle whereby every site that has naked photos of breasts that isn't explicitly about cancer or nudism or something is just a played-for-the-lulz site that is disrespectful of women, I'm not feeling particularly angsty about this one.
posted by jessamyn at 1:33 PM on July 10

Accusations of "Boyzone" are the new steampunk.
posted by Artw at 1:34 PM on July 10 [5 favorites]

All this outrage is so UNBELIEVABLY tiresome.
posted by CunningLinguist at 1:36 PM on July 10 [3 favorites]

Boobies!
posted by never used baby shoes at 3:02 PM on July 10 [+] [!]

I will never get sick of clicking on random "boobies" link and finding myself looking at a pair of Blue Footed Boobies. Their feet are so blue! Look at those silly feet!

In related news, great tits.
posted by nanojath at 1:37 PM on July 10

Thanks anastasiav; the previous threads generated more heat than light and I couldn't always be sure what people were talking about, (also, tl;dr) but the wiki page is nice and clear! My feelings on the issues you raise are as follows:

On preview: lengthy analysis with no firm conclusion deleted. In summary: yes the post is boyzone; I don't think that the occasional post like this makes MeFi as a whole a boyzone. I have faith in the admins' ability to balance content and am sure that any further posts about breasts in the next few days will have to be of exceptional quality to survive the delete button.
posted by nowonmai at 1:37 PM on July 10

Accusations of "Boyzone" are the new steampunk.

Seriously, this is so last season, you guys.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:38 PM on July 10

Also, I wish people would leave the MetaTalk posts to people who actually care enough to post themselves.
posted by smackfu at 3:37 PM on July 10 [3 favorites +] [!]

Are you kidding? Anastasiav has 200 of Metafilter's finest posts. She is a meta-goddess.
posted by caddis at 1:38 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

I meant MetaTalk posts. If you don't care strongly about it, don't post it to MetaTalk.
posted by smackfu at 1:42 PM on July 10

You're not rating the girls' racks. It's a guessing game (an easy one).

There's nothing sexist abou tit. Yes, I did that on purpose.
posted by Zambrano at 1:51 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

Is there a site where we get to guess if the "dick" in the porn is real and attached to the actor, photoshopped, or some kind of huge dildo? I'm sure there must be.
posted by kosem at 1:54 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

This post did offend me today. I saw it and the gleeful comments of men (and women, but mostly men) gawking at women's parts, and I just thought, do we really need to do this here? I commented and I flagged, but didn't go any further.

It is hard for me to explain my offense, because this sort of behavior is so accepted on places where geeks go on the internet. We associate male geeks and the Internet with some amount of female nudity. That's how our culture is now. Y'all think I'm overreacting and oversensitive to balk at seeing it here, because it's everywhere. People just seem to accept that it's okay to objectify women like this on the Internet.

But on the other hand, I think of all the places and professions where this sort of thing used to be accepted, and isn't anymore because the law said "wait a minute; this is wrong."

* EEOC v. Farmer Bros (1994) - Supervisor made foul comments about female employees including the size of their breasts.
* Lipsett v. University of Puerto Rico (1988) -- Playboy centerfolds in school dining hall and meeting rooms.
* Robinson v. Jacksonville Shipyards (1991) -- "Extensive, pervasive posting of pictures depicting nude women, partially nude women [and] sexual conduct."

I think it will be a long time, or never, before any such legal forays are made in Internet communities. But just because the objectification of women is everywhere on the Internet doesn't make it okay.

I saw this post today, and the comments of the guys who loved the site and were noting with glee their success at judging women's anatomies, and I thought, are we really doing this here? Is that what my gender is reduced to here -- a naked torso to be judged as authentic or augmented? It icked me out. Maybe the fun of the game is more important than random women in the minority being icked out. Fine. I just wanted to explain my point of view.
posted by onlyconnect at 1:59 PM on July 10 [27 favorites]

Is that what my gender is reduced to here

No, thats the point. Its oone post. One that isn't pure objectification.

That does not in any way define the role or the opinion of women on this site.
posted by Reggie Knoble at 2:02 PM on July 10

I think we should let boyzones be boyzones.
posted by kate blank at 2:07 PM on July 10 [2 favorites]

Uhm.... anyone that really thinks that the MeFi environment "discourages female participation" needs to get out more. Try hanging at Digg for a while. (While I like the links found at Digg, most of the time, reading the comments makes my blood boil. Too often.)

Anyway, I didn't find it offensive in the least. And I don't think it's a site that would only provide entertainment for straight men. It's *dumb* entertainment, but still kinda entertaining.
posted by INTPLibrarian at 2:09 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

So, I'm asking: What makes this a good Metafilter post?

It was mildly amusing 5 minute diversion. It didn't strike me, as a guy, as offensive to women, and it fact some of female friends would probably be interested in looking at it, just for the 5 minute diversion.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:11 PM on July 10

Don't know about boyzone but it sure has my vote for lamezone or stupidzone and I would have thought merited the hook for that reason alone. Don't we still at least aim for "best of web" stuff? It was so weak that people deviated into an entirely different discussion and are justifying the post for the via. Um, not_on_display, I usually always like your posts, guy, but I gotta say this was not your finest moment.

And can we drop the "boyzone" bullshit? Say "sexist" if that's what you mean.

I see "boyzone" as being a less mean-spirited and more unconscious thing than out-and-out sexism and so if I have used that term, that's what I have meant. It's when a group of guys get together and start acting and talking like some young guys might when there are no women present. First it's a simple little exercise in lighting farts, then the girlie mags get broken out and suddenly it's a circle jerk. And I am like, oops, this is not my beautiful house, where's the exit?
posted by madamjujujive at 2:13 PM on July 10 [10 favorites]

Well at least we found someone who's actually offended by the post... I was worried this was going to fizzle out.
posted by smackfu at 2:14 PM on July 10

Tits without a face.
Such a MeFi waste
You're tits without a face.

Sorry, just had that come from nowhere. Yeah, it was just kind of lame independent of any sexist connotations. Ze bar, it should be kept high, ya?
posted by Burhanistan at 2:17 PM on July 10

Zambrano: You're not rating the girls' racks. It's a guessing game (an easy one).

If you want to argue that a binary fake-or-not score is different than a 1-10 subjective tit-appreciation score, fine, I guess.

But your "I'll give you something to really complain about" potshot at the end was pretty uncalled-for.
posted by CKmtl at 2:17 PM on July 10

Boyzone absolutely.

Also depressing, degraded, and insipid.

Boyzone appears to be almost incurable, however, and is evidently prone to frequent outbreaks. And while not fatal, it is disfiguring.

If MetaFilter were a person, it would have a lot of trouble getting laid.
posted by jamjam at 2:21 PM on July 10 [5 favorites]

First it's a simple little exercise in lighting farts, then the girlie mags get broken out and suddenly it's a circle jerk.

Is it still a boyzone if males over the age of 40 do something similar?

Is a boyzone always a negative thing?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:22 PM on July 10

onlyconnect writes "This post did offend me today. I saw it and the gleeful comments of men (and women, but mostly men) gawking at women's parts, and I just thought, do we really need to do this here?"

Even if people were "gawking" (I didn't see anything like that though it might have been deleted I suppose, jessamyn's comment comes closest) this post doesn't make MetaFilter a BoyZone anymore than the Louvre is a BoyZone because it has the occasional painting of naked women that people gawk at.
posted by Mitheral at 2:22 PM on July 10

Also, I have no perspective.

Yeah, that was sort of my point in the second half of this comment...
posted by dersins at 2:25 PM on July 10

boyzone always a negative thing?

Apparently it made a bunch of people leave. Judging by the remaining people who get het up about it that's probably a major plus for it.
posted by Artw at 2:27 PM on July 10

Pretty harsh, Artw. I'd like to see as many viewpoints here as possible, especially folks I disagree with.
posted by danOstuporStar at 2:30 PM on July 10

Judging by the remaining people who get het up about it that's probably a major plus for it.

Totally boorish. Can we please not do this here?
posted by jessamyn at 2:31 PM on July 10 [5 favorites]

Sorry, I've got a short temper with the shame-police at the moment.
posted by Artw at 2:33 PM on July 10

the comments of the guys who loved the site and were noting with glee their success at judging women's anatomies

I just reread the thread and saw only one or two comments that might be construed as such. Did a whole bunch get deleted?
posted by oneirodynia at 2:37 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

I thought it was fun, if a bit silly. I'm not seeing how female breasts equate with sexism.

But then again, what do I know, I'm the European admin. I see many more breasts than this on a trip to the beach. And I'm sure everyone there is also wondering "real or fake"??
posted by vacapinta at 2:38 PM on July 10 [2 favorites]

Judging by the remaining people who get het up about it that's probably a major plus for it.

Yikes. Just yikes.
posted by madamjujujive at 2:39 PM on July 10

I just reread the thread and saw only one or two comments that might be construed as such. Did a whole bunch get deleted?

No. I don't think I deleted anything from that thread.
posted by jessamyn at 2:46 PM on July 10

Don't know about boyzone but it sure has my vote for lamezone or stupidzone and I would have thought merited the hook for that reason alone. Don't we still at least aim for "best of web" stuff?

It felt like kind of a coin-flip post to me, honestly; I think we could have defensibly deleted it on a "not great" basis, but I'd say the same for a number of other things we've let stand too in the name of not being overly slash-and-burn about the front page. Dumb silly stuff has always been part of the mix here, and likely always will be.

Basically, not a great post by any means but not really anything like beyond the pale either. A little of the conversation in the thread made me groan a bit and partly regret not nuking it after all, but there was also this nice blossoming of memepool nostalgia and an overall lack of nastiness.
posted by cortex at 2:47 PM on July 10

Jesus, Artw.
posted by cortex at 2:48 PM on July 10

Yes, MeFi is often quite sexist. The post in question didn't trigger any outrage in me. But I may have outrage fatigue. This thread, however, is pretty annoying. Lots of "Oh, feminism, how tiresome".
posted by theora55 at 2:57 PM on July 10 [19 favorites]

I'm wondering what it is about this post that makes it ok

That fact that it's a single isolated post. This community is not just for boys, but it doesn't seek to exclude boys either.

"Boyzone" becomes a problem when it's repeated and pervasive behavior. If you'll be offended by the occasional presence of boys, you will not enjoy Metafilter.
posted by tkolar at 2:58 PM on July 10

USA! USA! USA!
posted by bardic at 3:07 PM on July 10

MORE LIKE POOPY-HEAD-ZONE AMIRITE?
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:08 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

Huh. This post didn't offend me at all -- I thought it was a little silly, and not as skeezy as I expected. Also, I'm pretty good at judging real vs fake breasts.
posted by desuetude at 3:09 PM on July 10

I've definitely been on the "boo I spot questionable boyzoning!" side, but I don't really think this is. As a woman, I found it mildly interesting. Not "best of the web" but it didn't make me uncomfortable because woman's bodies don't make me uncomfortable and that's really all this was.

Now, if it were a bunch of porno pictures, or a "rate these chicks!" website, I'd be put off. But it wasn't.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 3:14 PM on July 10

never used baby shoes : Boobies!

nanojath : great tits.

Just to balance things out here, I'm going to link to a giant black cock.
posted by quin at 3:14 PM on July 10

So...wait...people are shocked that guys like breasts?
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:15 PM on July 10

I am too sick of the boobie posts...

Can someone find a "rate my vagina" kind of site? Rate the tightness, size of clit, coloration, overall attractiveness 1-10. Poor pussies must be jealous of all the attention that titties get.
posted by sixcolors at 3:24 PM on July 10

theora55 writes 'This thread, however, is pretty annoying. Lots of "Oh, feminism, how tiresome".'

I think it's the endless, repetitive discussion of whether or not there's a sexist atmosphere at MetaFilter that folk are finding tiresome.
posted by jack_mo at 3:24 PM on July 10 [2 favorites]

It got deleted due to being described as "safe for work".
posted by Artw at 3:25 PM on July 10

I think it's the endless, repetitive discussion of whether or not there's a sexist atmosphere at MetaFilter that folk are finding tiresome.

Yeah, if only those damn women would shut up and let the real people talk in whatever way comes naturally.
posted by languagehat at 3:28 PM on July 10 [26 favorites]

I am oppressing them with my words RIGHT NOW.
posted by Artw at 3:30 PM on July 10

"I, personally, have no strong feelings one way or another"

Sorry, but you're being disingenuous here. Regardless of the post if you had no strong feelings you wouldn't have posted to MeTa. I can see the point, but at least have the moral courage to step up to the plate.
posted by panboi at 3:37 PM on July 10

breasts != boyzone

The site didn't seem disrespectful towards women. I say let it stand. No reason to be Puritans.
posted by Afroblanco at 3:37 PM on July 10

Blurgh.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:37 PM on July 10 [2 favorites]

Text of the post in question: "Fake or Not? The site will show you ten pictures of boobies, a pair at a time. You must determine whether or not they are augmented. Wes Cherry, creator of Solitaire for Windows, aptly cites it as one of his three favorite websites"

Where are we finding the sexism here? Sorry, I refuse to use the word boyzone, not only is that the name of a band it also belittles the concept that we could ever call out something as sexist and have a legit case. Words can matter - so let's 86 this stupid boyzone crap. Or not, that's just my opinion of it.

Anyway I'm not finding anything wildly offensive in the original post itself. Since the beginning of time males have observed women's breasts - and other women have as well, let's not be sexist and assume only males derive pleasure from this. Sure this post isn't the same as observing the breast in Greek and Roman statuary - but then we live in a culture where women are repeatedly turning to plastic sugery for breast enlargement, and not everyone believes that it's the evil male culture that forces them to do so. I also don't think that all women mind or should be protected from breast oogling - by male or female viewers - as long as it's consentual. Some women enjoy this kind of thing, and far be it for me to mess with anyone's idea of fun. Plus I tend to shy away from folks who want to make the simple act of looking a crime. They make me nervous.

As a woman, and one who attended a Seven Sisters college and dealt with feminist theory in media classes in grad school, the original post didn't scream "offensive sexism" to me. I didn't read the comments as I was pretty sure what would go on there and avoid the thread - and plus I've not set myself up as culture police here. If there was offense? A simple flag of a comment or post generally does the trick. Here's the thing - I'm a feminist. That doesn't mean I have to agree with all feminist theory, or everyone else who calls themselves a feminist. So for my call - nothing outrageous here. I'm sure some will disagree.

Part of the recent criticism of sexism at MeFi went on the assumption that the moderators here don't do anything to monitor content for that issue, and that the majority of the members here are both male and misogynist. That's not the case. And from what I've seen of the moderators at work - I'll trust their judgement.
But they're not censors, nor do we want them to be.
posted by batgrlHG at 3:39 PM on July 10 [6 favorites]

Oh and I didn't even look into whether the linked sites are sexist/misogynist. That's a whole different kettle of fish if we're to say that no one can link to anything objectionable elsewhere. How are we supposed to critique anything if we can't cite the stuff?
posted by batgrlHG at 3:41 PM on July 10

I guess the post just reminds me of things like those photography magazines that are ostensibly about, y'know, photography, but are really about looking at ladies in assorted levels of undress. Because, hey, that's what women's bodies are there for--gazing, amirite? I mean that's why it's about real v. fake breasts, rather than, I dunno, real hair vs. plugs on men.

I'd love it if women's bodies weren't so fucking sexualized. It'd make my day a lot easier when I'm outside walking around minding my own business and getting the occasional catcall. It's all the same shit. So yeah, the post squicked me out for those reasons. And really, I could give a fuck if that makes me humorless or uptight. I'm sick of the dismissive attitude that rears its head every time someone brings this up on here.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:49 PM on July 10 [10 favorites]

Um, erogenous zones are sexualized by default, not by committee.
posted by Burhanistan at 3:52 PM on July 10 [3 favorites]

languagehat writes 'Yeah, if only those damn women would shut up and let the real people talk in whatever way comes naturally.'

Oh, come on languagehat, you know that's not what I meant. It just seems that, after the many (useful, valuable, enlightening) discussions on this topic to date, there's little to be gained by another thousand-odd comments on the same topic. Unless there are lots of new MetaTalk readers who might modify their behaviour in the way that many did after the sexism megathreads a while ago, I suppose.
posted by jack_mo at 3:53 PM on July 10

Sorry, but you're being disingenuous here. Regardless of the post if you had no strong feelings you wouldn't have posted to MeTa. I can see the point, but at least have the moral courage to step up to the plate.

This is not actually so, and I think it's a little damaging to the function of Metatalk to propogate the notion that it's true. Plenty of people have posted policy/community/discourse questions to Metatalk in other than a fit of pique. That folks have also posted about things about which they are in fact upset doesn't change that, and there's no reason the two (hazy, very general) classes of post wouldn't co-exist.

Painting every post as necessarily secretly driven by passion or a strong emotional reaction or objection needlessly inflames posts in a way that I think just lowers the signal to noise ratio in here, and to the extent that I see folks react immediately and negatively to reasonably well-put-together metatalk posts, it frustrates the hell out of me to see that attitude reinforced as some sort of mythical truth.

And I'm coming from a position of being in general more keenly aware than all but two other people on this site of what is and isn't going on in the background of any given metatalk callout. I'd never suggest that many metatalk posts aren't made in the heat of the moment, nor that folks haven't been coy or less-than-forthcoming about the recent events motivating (at least in part) a given post, but I'd love to see the idea that every metatalk must be a flaming pyre of retribution or whatever the heck be put to bed. It's not so, and the idea that it is so is bad for the health of the site.
posted by cortex at 3:53 PM on July 10 [4 favorites]

Apostrophe's are phallocentric.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:56 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

I mean that's why it's about real v. fake breasts, rather than, I dunno, real hair vs. plugs on men.

FWIW, I would totally check out that hairplugs site if it existed.
posted by cortex at 3:56 PM on July 10

Apostrophe's are phallocentric.

I always thought of them more as androgynous nubbins, like the controllers in the movie eXistenZ.
posted by Burhanistan at 4:00 PM on July 10

That movie is totally about buttsex.
posted by Artw at 4:01 PM on July 10

"Is there a site where we get to guess if the "dick" in the porn is real and attached to the actor, photoshopped, or some kind of huge dildo? I'm sure there must be."

Actually, if I had the time and inclination (which I do not), the real porno question would be whether or not the spooge is real. I was surprised by how often it's faked, and how often real jizz looks fake (and vice versa).
posted by klangklangston at 4:02 PM on July 10

As a woman, I didn't think this was "boyzone" at all. It's no different than any other site that sees if you can identify plastic surgery. Breast implants are only as sexualized as you make them. To me, it was fairly sterile, and more medical than jerk-off material or something. To me, this is like being offended by National Geographic.

I realize that people are going to talk about and complain about whatever they want, but for whatever it's worth, the "is MeFi sexist" posts are really tiresome to me. I don't feel like MeFi is sexist at all, and I groan whenever I see those posts. Maybe there have been times when it was warranted, but honestly, none spring to mind. If anything, this sort of thing is the wolf-calling that leads people to dismiss things that actually are egregiously sexist; when you get sick of people whining about nothing, you're conditioned to be annoyed by their complaining even when they have a point. Pick your battles, people. If you make an issue out of little things, pretty soon no one takes you seriously and can't stand to talk to you.

This and the "cunt" thing strike me as hypersensitive, to be frank. I try not to judge when people are offended by these things -- sometimes they have good reasons I don't have the patience to detangle -- but it's a struggle.
posted by Nattie at 4:02 PM on July 10 [4 favorites]

In a way, this reminds me of the AskMe thread of the guy asking if he should tell his girlfriend that he eats his boogers. And almost everyone was like, "absolutely not!" Because you don't want her to associate that with you, because it's the kind of habit that will concentrate her attention and make it hard for her to focus on his many other no doubt fine attributes.

I come to Metafilter to talk about books or strange natural phenomena or weird animals or personality-laden GPS units or cultural dating practices and the like, and sometimes even politics. And I feel like I have good conversations with people here talking about those and other issues, and like we connect intellectually, and like I'm appreciated because of the experiences and opinions that I express.

And then I see a thread like this, and it concentrates my attention on the fact that whatever conversations I might have with some folks, just beneath the surfact there is always some more animal urge that they don't think it's worth it to control where judging naked breasts is somehow appropriate. I might be smart or kind or quirky, but in the end this kind of thread reminds me that whatever connections I might think I'm making, I'm a member of a gender that you think it's polite to look at naked pictures of and judge, right in front of me. There are lots of places in society where you would not think this was acceptable. (i.e., the NSFW warning.) But this is the Internet after all, and it seems to be acceptable here.

Again, I understand that many folks are not upset by this, and I don't mean to exaggerate my own discomfort. I do just feel that the occasional post of this type is a weird reminder to me that my gender is for objectifying, even here. Like I'm being put in my place. Like my boyfriend has a habit of eating boogers that he thinks is sufficiently acceptable social behavior to do right in front of me.

Metafilter, I would rather if you ate your boogers somewhere else.
posted by onlyconnect at 4:04 PM on July 10 [14 favorites]

"I'd love it if women's bodies weren't so fucking sexualized. It'd make my day a lot easier when I'm outside walking around minding my own business and getting the occasional catcall."

The occasional non-sexual catcall? "Hey baby, you look like you're in grad school!" "Hey, why don't you come over here and engage me as a person?"
posted by klangklangston at 4:05 PM on July 10 [4 favorites]

This is not actually so, and I think it's a little damaging to the function of Metatalk to propogate the notion that it's true. Plenty of people have posted policy/community/discourse questions to Metatalk in other than a fit of pique.

I don't need the person to be upset or anything. I just want them to hold a position, instead of "I don't really care about this, but I guess we should talk about it", which is how I read this post.
posted by smackfu at 4:07 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

"To me, this is like being offended by National Geographic."

Yeah, but, see, I'd flag a post that was a link to every NatGeo picture of some native woman's tits.
posted by klangklangston at 4:07 PM on July 10

Hi folks!

• First, I wanted to say that I'm blissfully ignorant of most of what goes down in MetaTalk, especially regarding 100-plus-comment debates on whether or not something constitutes sexism. Sorry for stepping in the pile of dogshit that was in the middle of the room; I had my noseclip on and was looking at the ceiling.

• I come to MeFi for the diversionary nature: the cool links, interesting articles, overviews on things, music, etc. I don't subscribe to the tagline "Best of the Web" at all. I appreciate the wide range of things you can find here. And, as I have seen plenty of sillier things here, I thought I wouldn't be too far out of line when posting this quickie. In any case, I thought it was amusing and fluff enough not to draw lightning, or to lower the bar significantly. Yeah, maybe not my finest post, but they can't all be!

• As far as the politics of this goes, amyms' comment upthread pretty much sums up my feelings.

• I loved that people bemoaned the sad state of memepool. That really gave me a thrill. I was wondering what happened to memepool, and I don't think it was the sex posts that killed it.

• I don't come here to fight or irritate people or to troll, just to be a slight wiseass if anything. And that FPP is about the most crass I'll get, probably, so... yeah, I think that's all I have to say, so I'll sign off here.

• Have fun! ***hugs everyone in a nonsexual way***

***hugs cortex a bit too long and slow, while leering at Jessamyn over his shoulder***
posted by not_on_display at 4:07 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

Yeah, but, see, I'd flag a post that was a link to every NatGeo picture of some native woman's tits.

But at least they're real.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:10 PM on July 10

I see "boyzone" as being a less mean-spirited and more unconscious thing than out-and-out sexism and so if I have used that term, that's what I have meant. It's when a group of guys get together and start acting and talking like some young guys might when there are no women present. First it's a simple little exercise in lighting farts, then the girlie mags get broken out and suddenly it's a circle jerk. And I am like, oops, this is not my beautiful house, where's the exit?

But this isn't your house, it's more akin to the public park. Really, lighting farts and looking at cheesecake may be dumb or tasteless, but I don't get how it is intrinsically degrading to women. In fact, I wouldn't even make the assumption that all women automatically reject that sort of entertainment, because sweeping generalizations based on physical reproductive attributes are sexist. I am frankly tired of the implication that as a woman, I am bound to dislike anything and everything that some other woman is offended by. I find it far more offensively sexist when so many people imply or state outright that women are by nature more pure minded, soft spoken, and non confrontational; and that outspoken, blunt, confrontational women who have no problem telling misogynistic jackasses that they are full of baloney are the outliers- or worse, that they are unfeminine. It's always been the case here that people, and in particular women, that promote these antiquated Victorian notions are allowed to do so with nary an objection, yet these sorts of deeply ingrained assumptions are far more harmful to the notion of women as free thinking individuals than any sophmoric bozo saying "I'd hit it". More harmful than pictures of breasts. Or the word "twat". For fuck's sake. Yet that's what we argue about- not the fact that all sorts of people make assumptions about other people's motivations, actions, and points of view based on their gender, all the freaking time. Er, not that we have to argue about those things either. But really, anti-women hatred can't be assumed based on a dumb post, or a lame comment. I'm sorry that some people are made uncomfortable by such things, and I fully support their right to speak up. I just wish that the bringing up was not often couched in terms of "boys are gross" or "girls are afraid to confront people". Because I think that those sorts of gender based generalizations are wrong and unfair.

I've never felt unwelcome to express my opinion, or weigh in on a subject here. Nor have I ever been not taken seriously, or ignored, or ridiculed, or treated to any personal attack because I am female. I don't expect my experience to mirror anyone else's, but I'm willing to go head to head with anyone who seriously posits that MetaFilter is a boyzone. I read a lot of posts, and I just don't see that sort of thing happening here. But feel free to point out anything I've missed.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:10 PM on July 10 [25 favorites]

I've never felt unwelcome to express my opinion, or weigh in on a subject here. Nor have I ever been not taken seriously, or ignored, or ridiculed, or treated to any personal attack because I am female. I don't expect my experience to mirror anyone else's, but I'm willing to go head to head with anyone who seriously posits that MetaFilter is a boyzone. I read a lot of posts, and I just don't see that sort of thing happening here.

That -- and the rest of oneirodynia's post -- really sums up my feelings well. Thank you for typing that.
posted by Nattie at 4:16 PM on July 10

I didn't read the post because I knew it wouldn't interest me. However, I did watch BBC America's My Big Breasts and Me last night. Fascinating, actually: It debunks some of the mystique of big boobies.
posted by Robert Angelo at 4:17 PM on July 10

onlyconnect: "just beneath the surfact there is always some more animal urge that they don't think it's worth it to control where judging naked breasts is somehow appropriate."

Many things go on in the minds of human beings when they assess others visually and get that first impression. And many of those things dwell of the physical aspects of the person in front of them. They might be looking at other parts of the body rather than the chest area too.
Women do this with men as well. And with other women.
Maybe I've just had a lot of really verbal women friends - but I've heard comments about both gender's physical attributes, shall we say. I don't engage in it myself - but I don't censor others.

Happily we don't have to hear what goes on in the internal monologue. This is a good thing. Although there would be a lot more sitcomy "offended person slaps other person" type moments if we could hear those thoughts.
posted by batgrlHG at 4:17 PM on July 10

And sorry, I didn't mean to imply onlyconnect wanted to censor - only realized that after I hit post - I was trying to say that I don't censor my friends, even if I don't act in the same manner.
posted by batgrlHG at 4:19 PM on July 10

"Boizone" means something else entirely at the Mine Shaft on Tuesday nights.

Boizone.com (NSFW -- duh): "Gay online guide featuring porn site reviews, gay porn stars, twinks, college boys, bondage, fetish, industry gossip, and erotic stories."
posted by ericb at 4:20 PM on July 10

"Really, lighting farts and looking at cheesecake may be dumb or tasteless, but I don't get how it is intrinsically degrading to women."

Two things: I don't think that people are necessarily arguing that it's inherently degrading (if they are, it's kind of a weak argument), but rather that it's exclusionary. A bunch of guys hanging around gibbering about stroke mags (by the way folks, plenty of subscriptions available) doesn't leave a woman who isn't interested in that a lot of conversational leeway, and that can feel pretty weird. Hell, it can feel pretty weird for me, and I work at stroke mags.

Second thing is that while it's totally awesome that you've never felt this, some other women are saying they have. And some women that posted a lot of cool shit, stuff that I'd love to see much more than more titties, have left because of it.

Leaving aside the moral aspects, which as a dude I don't particularly want to engage for fear of being unnecessarily clumsy, from a strict utilitarian perspective regarding my own pleasure—I'd rather have less boyzone in general, but feel only kinda weakly anti regarding this post.
posted by klangklangston at 4:22 PM on July 10 [4 favorites]

Cortex: "Plenty of people have posted policy/community/discourse questions to Metatalk in other than a fit of pique."

Point taken. But I take issue with the OP's comment of deflecting the argument onto comments made by others who may (or may not) have made their feelings clear on the site. Especially so when the OP themselves has not viewed the link in question.

My point is - make your stand by all means, but please take the time to back up your argument and don't deflect it via the grounds that other people have told you they object.

Disclaimer: I viewed the link and gave it 1 meh's out of 5
posted by panboi at 4:23 PM on July 10

I was surprised by how often it's faked, and how often real jizz looks fake (and vice versa).

*Quietly registers SpunkOrBunk.com*
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:23 PM on July 10 [6 favorites]

Women do this with men as well. And with other women.
Maybe I've just had a lot of really verbal women friends - but I've heard comments about both gender's physical attributes, shall we say.

Yeah, this is another reason why it baffles me someone would say the site is male-oriented. Lots of women discuss whether or not other women have fake boobs, at least in my experience. Anecdotally speaking, I even hear this far more from women than I do from men, and I have way more men friends than women friends.
posted by Nattie at 4:25 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

I guess the post just reminds me of things like those photography magazines that are ostensibly about, y'know, photography, but are really about looking at ladies in assorted levels of undress. Because, hey, that's what women's bodies are there for--gazing, amirite?

This seems to be the prevailing sentiment here. I take it then that no one took the "test" because they were curious about the results? You took it as an opportunity to ogle?

I might be tired from work, but this was not a thrill in any way. I just wanted to know if I could tell. I didn't so much as pause at a pair, nor determine if one was worth pausing over.

I'd love it if women's bodies weren't so fucking sexualized.

Your wish is my command. Maybe that's the secret: overtime.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 4:29 PM on July 10

Lately, Mefi seems a bit more baconzone than boyzone.

I approve of this trend.
posted by zennie at 4:29 PM on July 10

A bunch of guys hanging around gibbering about stroke mags (by the way folks, plenty of subscriptions available) doesn't leave a woman who isn't interested in that a lot of conversational leeway,

A buncha math dorks gibbering about algebra dosen't allow the non-mathematically inclined much conversationally leeway either, but we'll live. Algebra, like boobies (both fake and real) are parts of life, and a little bit of raunchy humor isn't going to irreparably stain anyones virtue.

Not to mention, in the age of ubiquitous plastic surgery, the 'fake or real' guessing game has become a popular bar pastime among plenty of people I know,male and female. Dressing up schoolmarmish don't-say-bad-words scolding dosen't change what it is.
posted by jonmc at 4:35 PM on July 10 [6 favorites]

You took it as an opportunity to ogle?

Well, one finds nudity so infrequently on the internet nowadays that you have to take your opportunities when they appear...

Kidding aside, I found this post pretty inoffensive for the same reasons batgirlHG said and was kind of surprised that there were people who felt otherwise. Buuuut more than a few of those folks are people whom I respect and like immensely, and if they're turned off of the site because of that post, it certainly isn't worth it, IMO.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:41 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

I don't need the person to be upset or anything. I just want them to hold a position, instead of "I don't really care about this, but I guess we should talk about it", which is how I read this post.

and

My point is - make your stand by all means, but please take the time to back up your argument and don't deflect it via the grounds that other people have told you they object.

Fair enough, those are both clearer to me than what I (felt like I) read before.

I don't particularly agree that the poster needs to hold a position on the subject, though; and I don't agree that not having a position is the same as not caring. Intellectual curiosity about some site phenomenon about which you haven't previously made up your mind seems fine, to me, as a basis for a Metatalk, if the callout itself is done well (however much Migs may have been roasted back in the day for that sort of thing).

Miguel, it's been like six months. You really ought to drop by. We're nearly out of ice.
posted by cortex at 4:47 PM on July 10

"A buncha math dorks gibbering about algebra dosen't allow the non-mathematically inclined much conversationally leeway either, but we'll live."

I can't remember a single person leaving over the site becoming too math-centric, can you?
posted by klangklangston at 4:48 PM on July 10

*leads entire site in drunken singalong of "Kiss Me I'm ShitFaced and "The Spicy McHaggis Jig."*

This, as we all know, is the solution to all the world's problems.
posted by jonmc at 4:49 PM on July 10

I can't remember a single person leaving over the site becoming too math-centric, can you?

People have left the site for it being too hostile to conservatives, but I don't see anybody asking anti-Republican rhetoric to be toned down (having indulged in it myself, I wouldn't want anyone to).

My point is, I'm cool with trying to be welcoming to females, but I'm not all that comfortable with the idea of catering to the most thin-skinned in any group, and anyone who would get tied up in knots over this site qualifies. Sorry, but that's my opinion on the subject.
posted by jonmc at 4:53 PM on July 10 [13 favorites]

I don't whine about knitting or kitties or any of the hundreds of other topics that get discussed here that I am not interested in.

The fact that you see this as remotely equivalent to a guy linking to a site that has made looking at women's naked breasts into a game that can be scored confuses me exceedingly.

please will you GO AWAY

I'm not sure if you're talking to me since I never expressed a desire to remove anything male-oriented from the site, but I'll assume that you are because I'm one of the few people that said the thread in question offended me.

I'm invested in this site. I'm sure folks are tired of hearing me say it, but I met my husband through a MeFi meetup. I've as much right to be here as you, to express my opinions as you, and to have those opinions taken into consideration as you. I'd rather not leave, to be honest.

I've really aimed not to get angry or emotional in this thread, and just express what I'm feeling as objectively, and politely, as possible. Yet this is the second time in this MetaTalk thread where guys have basically implored me to leave. Really? I mean, I shouldn't even express my opinion, it's that incendiary? Is it really that crazy for a woman here to say that she felt offended and objectified about a post about naked breasts and the judging thereof?
posted by onlyconnect at 4:58 PM on July 10 [10 favorites]

Regarding my comment in this thread that I quickly had the mods delete:

for anyone who saw it and said "right on brother!", I offer this for failing to have the strength to stand up for my convictions and leave my opinion stand.
for anyone who saw it and thought "yet another bit of evidence that Meatbomb sure is a sexist jerk," please see this.

posted by Meatbomb at 5:01 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

This and the "cunt" thing strike me as hypersensitive, to be frank.

HUH?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 5:02 PM on July 10

please will you GO AWAY

me and onlyconnect disagree on a lot, but that's over the line. If I want my opinions to be heard, I owe her the same. That's really the only rule as far as I'm concerned. That and no links to Kenny G videos.
posted by jonmc at 5:03 PM on July 10

more than a few of those folks are people whom I respect and like immensely, and if they're turned off of the site because of that post, it certainly isn't worth it, IMO.

This is my take on things as well. If I see women I think highly of complaining about a post, I'll take that complaint seriously even if I don't see much of a problem on my own hook.
posted by languagehat at 5:05 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

Why was that comment deleted?
posted by smackfu at 5:05 PM on July 10

Because Meatbomb asked and maybe a minute or two had passed and no one had mentioned it at the time.
posted by jessamyn at 5:07 PM on July 10

I can't believe how vehemently some people are defending that crappy post. And to be honest I'm more offended by this thread than by that. Now not only do we have a conversation where we're ogling titties but we're telling women we're bored by their complaints about it. That's class.

I like your stuff a lot of the time, not_on_display, but you totally shit the bed on this one.

Anyway, I've thrown my flag into the queue, for what it's worth.
posted by loiseau at 5:13 PM on July 10 [6 favorites]

Because either:

I am a coward who doesn't have the courage of my convictions
I have now been properly educated by the thought police
I regretted saying something too inflammatory that would just stir shit unnecessarily, and regretted posting immediately after pushing the little yellow button

Take your pick, apologies all around, it is bedtime for bonzo. Hugs everyone!
posted by Meatbomb at 5:13 PM on July 10

Oh, and PS. maybe the reason women are using the term "boyzone" instead of "sexism" is because it softens the impact. Because that's what women often feel we have to do.
posted by loiseau at 5:16 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

BTW I do want to hop in and fully support the OP's desire to ask a question on this subject. Never hurts. And could possibly make decent fodder for academic research, should anyone out there be so inclined.

"A buncha math dorks gibbering about algebra dosen't allow the non-mathematically inclined much conversationally leeway either"

Wow, there are others that feel marginalized by the uber maths crowd?! I'm not alone?
Er, not that I don't respect the uber maths crowd...

I should add that there's a whole subset of women out there that oogle/sigh over math dorks. Yes, those women exist, they are not mythological creatures, no matter what you may have heard.

onlyconnect: "but I'll assume that you are because I'm one of the few people that said the thread in question offended me. ... Is it really that crazy for a woman here to say that she felt offended and objectified about a post about naked breasts and the judging thereof?"

I should also add that I'm ok with how you feel about this, even if I'm not in agreement with you. It's not crazy, it's your opinion - and it has a lot to do with how you personally see the issue. Which is ok. But the act of somone else looking at breasts objectifying you personally - well, it's a jump not everyone makes, not even all of the feminists who are into theory of such things.

I think many people are trying to tell you "please allow me the ability to look at these things without feeling like I'm branded as a sexist pig/jerk/doing something to you personally/etc." And remember, there are a lot of gay and bisexual women out there who wouldn't agree with you on this either. And frankly there's some decent numbers for heterosexual women's porn sales too that say many more women enjoy this as well. So yes, it's ok for people to look at women's bodies on the internet. Men's bodies too. Both genders enjoy this - though definitely not the same kind of content. But not everyone is going to admit that it's something both male and females do. Or be comfortable with that.

Lots of other people are invested in this site too. (I met my husband indirectly through this place.) No matter what everyone is going to see something on this site that they don't like in some way. Frankly I think this place has only gotten better in terms of awareness of potential sexist content, in the time I've followed it.
posted by batgrlHG at 5:18 PM on July 10 [4 favorites]

Wow, there are others that feel marginalized by the uber maths crowd?!

The only thing I feel marginalized by is the Page Setup controls on MS Word.

(Also, we have this discussion so many times I'm beginning to think that some people secretly enjoy it. It's after work, people. Go crack a beer and watch TV or something.)
posted by jonmc at 5:21 PM on July 10

This seems to be what I was looking for but now I'm not sure what to do with it. Hmmmm
posted by nola at 5:26 PM on July 10

"People have left the site for it being too hostile to conservatives, but I don't see anybody asking anti-Republican rhetoric to be toned down (having indulged in it myself, I wouldn't want anyone to)."

I have. Anti-Republican rhetoric, or anti-conservative rhetoric, or (especially) anti-Christian rhetoric can bug me when it seems gratuitous and petty, which happens more often than it should.

Why? Because of a couple of things: First off, I generally like most of the conservatives here. They can annoy me, but so can you. Second, I often think a lot more about my own positions because of them, even when I disagree. Third, they're sometimes right and I don't want to miss out because someone else has to get in some tired zing.
posted by klangklangston at 5:30 PM on July 10 [5 favorites]

It's not interesting, it's arguably sexist, and it's old news.

Give me a break. Anything is fucking arguable. Dogshit is "arguably" more delicious than cherry pie, but that doesn't make it actually more delicious.

No I don't have a point. I just thought it was amusing.
posted by euphorb at 5:33 PM on July 10

well, more power to you, klang, but I don't delude myself that we're actually changing the world here. we're a bunch of dorks killing time at work or there's nothing on TV at home. And I hate prissiness worse than poison and ofterntimes concern takes a sharp left right into that around here.

They can annoy me, but so can you.

Dude, I exist to annoy people. But you knew that.
posted by jonmc at 5:35 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

1. I, personally, have no strong feelings one way or another (I can't click the link from work)

2. So, I'm asking: What makes this a good Metafilter post?

I don't know but I can tell you what makes this an awful MetaTalk thread
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:36 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

I can't remember a single person leaving over the site becoming too math-centric, can you?

I wouldn't be shocked if someone left over the .9999... =1 kerfuffle.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:46 PM on July 10

I actually enjoy watching people get all hissy about stuff like this. It's an amusing way to cap off the day.
posted by Afroblanco at 5:47 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

klangklangston writes "Actually, if I had the time and inclination (which I do not), the real porno question would be whether or not the spooge is real. I was surprised by how often it's faked, and how often real jizz looks fake (and vice versa)."

If you ever get motivated make sure you concentrate on gay porn so as to not induce another round of boyzone metatalk threads.
posted by Mitheral at 5:49 PM on July 10

What he said.
posted by nola at 5:49 PM on July 10

That is what Afroblanco said. Damn flux capacitor.
posted by nola at 5:50 PM on July 10

Y'know today at work somebody sold us a book of Led Zeppelin lyrics. in English with Spanish translations. (no shit)

Oye, Oye, nena, con esa manera de moverte
Vas a sudar, vas a ponerte a gusto
Oh, Oh, nena, sauciendo eso asi
te va a picar, te pondras ardiendo
Oye, oye nena, cuand caminas asi
Mira como gotea la miel, no puedo ir muy lejos

(I have no idea whwteher the translation is accurate or not, but that's what it says)
posted by jonmc at 5:55 PM on July 10

Also, because no "boyzone" thread would be complete without it - what St. Carlin said.

(it's okay to laugh)
posted by Afroblanco at 5:57 PM on July 10

First it's a simple little exercise in lighting farts, then the girlie mags get broken out and suddenly it's a circle jerk.

I'm 41, and have had a reasonably regular social life as a kid, adolescent, and adult. Is the quoted practice actually common? Am I the only male heterosexual who never (a) lit farts (b) hung out with friends who eventually (apparently) decided the only thing to do was to dip into a stash of porno and (c) then proceeded to rub one out in company of those friends? I mean, I'm a base and vulgar guy, and this still wasn't on my radar.

I don't doubt this goes on somewhere, but to suggest it's a common or baseline activity is pretty silly--as lurid and unlikely as your typical porn movie where any two girls left alone together invariably have sex.
posted by maxwelton at 5:58 PM on July 10 [3 favorites]

Am I the only male heterosexual who never (a) lit farts (b) hung out with friends who eventually (apparently) decided the only thing to do was to dip into a stash of porno and (c) then proceeded to rub one out in company of those friends?

I never did all three at once, but I have watched a friend light farts, and I did read look at porn in the company of friends as an adult. never did the circle jerk thing. So, if you never did any of the above, I'd say that yes, you have a lot of catching up to do.
posted by jonmc at 6:01 PM on July 10

I think that post is not the best of the web by any stretch of the imagination. I also (and if I'm wrong please forgive my assumption) assumed it was allowed to stand for internal reasons.

What loiseu said about how offensive people are being in this threat has merit. I'm numb.
posted by reflecked at 6:05 PM on July 10

You may want to find some place other than the internet to hang out then.
posted by smackfu at 6:08 PM on July 10

. . .decided the only thing to do was to dip into a stash of porno and (c) then proceeded to rub one out in company of those friends?

No your not alone, but from what I've heard you and I have lead sheltered lives.
posted by nola at 6:09 PM on July 10

but I met my husband through a MeFi meetup.

Really? That's pretty cool.

*dances ancient doughnut dance*

cortex, what's the stats on people who met their mate through mefi?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:12 PM on July 10

The year 2000 called, it wants its "HAY GUYS I COMBINED A SIMPLE WEBSITE QUIZ WITH PICTURES OF TITS" post back.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 6:13 PM on July 10

I also (and if I'm wrong please forgive my assumption) assumed it was allowed to stand for internal reasons.

you're forgiven.
posted by jessamyn at 6:14 PM on July 10

Am I the only male heterosexual who never (a) lit farts (b) hung out with friends who eventually (apparently) decided the only thing to do was to dip into a stash of porno and (c) then proceeded to rub one out in company of those friends?

Nope, apparently my Y chromosome is broken as well since I've never had the urge to do those things.

Maybe it's like that male idea that when women get together they strip down to their underwear and have pillow fights.
posted by Tenuki at 6:18 PM on July 10

You may want to find some place other than the internet to hang out then.

As lame and grating as the "Grow a thicker skin, this is teh internets!" posture is, it's a particularly bullshit thing to say here considering that they are objecting to pretty crappy comments made on a website/community that prides itself on discourse that's above the internet's low, low standards.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:20 PM on July 10 [4 favorites]

You're right, I don't understand how they function on the other parts of the internet.
posted by smackfu at 6:24 PM on July 10

That was not a very good post. Not particularly sexist. But not interesting either. There is nothiing to talk about except the shit storm it was going to inevitably produce.

The site itself was terrible. Poorly designed. Awful lifted jpegs from other sites. No effort at all.

Yeah. Pretty crappy.
posted by tkchrist at 6:27 PM on July 10

Having just played it, I disagree. It was actually a pretty hard game, and I was just coming here to say so. So there, nyaaah.
posted by yhbc at 6:31 PM on July 10 [1 favorite]

From this question is pretty tame, but I wouldn't want it on my screen for others to read. Is there any solution to this? to You may want to find some place other than the internet to hang out then in four years.

What a long, strange trip it's been.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:32 PM on July 10

Yeah, guess I've gotten sick of the complaining.
posted by smackfu at 6:36 PM on July 10

Circle Jerk.

I have only ever hear whispers. I have never witnessed one and I do not believe that they are in the ordinary course. I would be interested to hear anyone's first person testimonial, however.

Of all things, though, you'd figure there would be a "Circle Jerks in Popular Culture" section on Wikipedia.
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