Discussion Point | MetaTalk

A post about how women experience street harassment has been deleted. The one about how the psychology of exhibitionist men remains. The grounds: This post was deleted for the following reason: one exhibitionism post per day is enough. This is linked in the thread just below this. Please don't use MetaFilter to forward your point from metatalk. -- jessamyn My point was to continue a discussion some people thought valuable from a previous thread deleted apparently because that post was poor. Just can't get the hang of this thing. Hey ho.
posted by jennydiski to MetaFilter-related at 7:46 AM (1163 comments total) 38 users marked this as a favorite

link
posted by iconomy at 7:57 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

This thing is not about continuing discussion.

The psychology of exhibitionist men thread should be axed too, for the same reason.
posted by yhbc at 7:57 AM on November 16, 2007

My point was to continue a discussion

That's not the point of Metafilter. The point of Metafilter is to share interesting content from the web.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:58 AM on November 16, 2007 [16 favorites]

The post that was originally deleted is currently being discussed in the MetaTalk thread about it. Starting a new post on that topic when there's one on a related topic still a few posts down on the front page seems a little bit like using MetaFilter to make a point, not to highlight something you found on the web. I'm sorry the other post from today was there first, but MeFi is not a call and response battleground for competing posts coming at both sides of a topic and that's what your post looked like.

To be more clear, most times when there is a post on a topic that is already being discussed in a post on the front page, the second post gets removed as a double. This is not true for all topics but it is true for most topics. This has nothing to do with whatever "side" of the issue or topic the original post came from. So, for an example

post 1: OBAMA SUCKS
post 2: OBAMA RULES
result 1: Obama rules post removed
result 2: metatalk thread about how we're against Obama because we left the sucks post and removed the rules post.
posted by jessamyn at 7:59 AM on November 16, 2007 [2 favorites]

Also, it was your post. I don't know why you got so passive voice all of the sudden.
posted by jessamyn at 8:01 AM on November 16, 2007 [11 favorites]

As the originator of the other post, let me state that my reason for creating it was a statement by cortex in the MeTa thread that sometimes pulled FPPs get reworked and shared in the different and more appropriate way. So I thought I would make the attempt; shortly after posting it I felt some regret at doing so because the MeTa conversation was still in full bloom and I felt that I all had done was to create a second thread that would pick up the MeTa discussion, and keep both going.

All of which is a long way of saying that I'm quite fine with the mods shutting down my post, if they deem it a good idea and a way to calm everything down. If they decide to leave it, it's just another meh post on the Blue.
posted by never used baby shoes at 8:07 AM on November 16, 2007

"I don't know why you got so passive voice all of the sudden."

Some women get the vapors when their posts are deleted. She merely threw up this MeTa mid-swoon.
posted by klangklangston at 8:08 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

I flagged this post earlier because it was rubbish and trying to make a point. No axe-grinding or anything like that.

As an aside, I hope this 'debate' ends soon, it has been one of the most tedious that I can remember in my two years or so of using Mefi.
posted by ClanvidHorse at 8:11 AM on November 16, 2007

Jessamyn: Because I was more interested in the nature of the deletion than in the fact that it was my post that was being deleted.

The two posts are not at all oppositional and weren't intended to be. I was not competing with the interesting post on the psychology of exhibitionism, but wanting to continue a conversation that was stopped.
posted by jennydiski at 8:13 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

That's not the point of Metafilter. The point of Metafilter is to share interesting content from the web.

I think that if TPS and I agree about a statement down to the letter (which, in this case, we do), you can probably consider it statistically significant at around the α=0.00001 level.
posted by Wolfdog at 8:15 AM on November 16, 2007

Some women get the vapors when their posts are deleted.

Vapors? Hysterics? Yes, this is a really cool place for women.
posted by jennydiski at 8:16 AM on November 16, 2007

Well, Jenny, how about you post something to the front page so we can discuss that?
posted by klangklangston at 8:18 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

There are already way too many "let's discuss this" posts on MetaFilter as it is.

What's wrong with getting The Vapors? I've been getting them since the 80s.
posted by iconomy at 8:19 AM on November 16, 2007

I had real bad gas at the last full moon.
posted by cog_nate at 8:19 AM on November 16, 2007

"What's wrong with getting The Vapors? I've been getting them since the 80s."

I didn't know you had turned Japanese on us.
posted by klangklangston at 8:20 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

Vapors? Hysterics? Yes, this is a really cool place for women.

Klang's comment was clearly a joke.
posted by OmieWise at 8:20 AM on November 16, 2007

* exposes his RCA socket *
posted by [@I][:+:][@I] at 8:22 AM on November 16, 2007 [2 favorites]

That's not the point of Metafilter. The point of Metafilter is to share interesting content from the web.

Isn't that the same thing I said, just one comment above that? So how come she gets the favorites - because she's a GIRL?!?!?!?
posted by yhbc at 8:24 AM on November 16, 2007 [11 favorites]

never used baby shoes, I think the post you made was fine, and a good example of reacting to a deletion with a solid followup (as opposed to the occasional Oh Yeah Well Then Delete This! rawr post we see come out of these sometimes).

jennydiski, your post in a vacuum is fine too, and it's the sort of thing where if you had waited a few days to post it it'd have probably been fine, but following right on the above-mentioned and the still-very-open metatalk conversation that inspired it is exactly the sort of too-much-too-soon reaction posting that tends to read as an attempt to make a point.

As a decent example of the Osama Sucks/Rules situation jessamyn mentioned above, here's a pair of posts where order of succession was (at least a significant part of) what drove the deletion of the second:

Ron Paul, November 5.
Ron Paul, November 6.

That second post had other problems, too, but even if it had been rock solid it'd probably have been canned by the same reasoning.

Call 'em "trend posts", or "trend doubles", or something. If folks get to posting followup posts along the lines of "oh, hey, well here's my take on the topic", the filter starts breaking down. Sometimes it means you're stuck with the post that exists already, or with waiting a little while to give the topic some room to breath. That sucks if you're excited and don't want to compromise, but it's a pretty reasonable situation from the POV of the site as a whole.
posted by cortex at 8:24 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

jennydiski, one of the unwritten rules of metafilter is that you will lose at metatalk 99% of the time when posting about a deleted post, just stop playing it.
posted by 517 at 8:24 AM on November 16, 2007

wanting to continue a conversation that was stopped.

Again, MeFi is not in the business of creating conversation. It's about posting links to the best of the web. That interesting conversations arise from those links is a nice perq but not the goal of a post. And we certainly shouldn't be making posts for the purpose of continuing a conversation.
posted by Durin's Bane at 8:25 AM on November 16, 2007 [2 favorites]

Isn't that the same thing I said, just one comment above that? So how come she gets the favorites - because she's a GIRL?!?!?!?

The beginning of the "Metafilter is a Girlzone!" theory. And I was there. So proud!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:26 AM on November 16, 2007 [6 favorites]

"Klang's comment was clearly a joke."

It was as sincere as my advocacy of phrenology and phlogiston.
posted by klangklangston at 8:26 AM on November 16, 2007 [2 favorites]

FOR WHICH I AM WELL KNOWN.
posted by klangklangston at 8:26 AM on November 16, 2007 [11 favorites]

I was not competing with the interesting post on the psychology of exhibitionism, but wanting to continue a conversation that was stopped.

I cannot express enough how clearly The Pink Superhero answers this concern. Threads are not created for discussion. Discussions, even tangentially related ones, can happen in existing threads. Your intention is admirable, but posts must stand on their own, outside of any interesting discussion that might ensue. Part of the criteria for a post standing on its own is the prevalence of similarly themed posts on the front page already. Especially when there has been a hotly contested deletion recently. Your post would likely have stayed if it had been posted a week from now.
posted by shmegegge at 8:27 AM on November 16, 2007

* Ejects SDHC card *
posted by Plutor at 8:28 AM on November 16, 2007

Vapors? Hysterics? Yes, this is a really cool place for women.

The word is "snark". You do have dictionaries at NYT, yes? I'm pretty sure it's in one of them.
posted by aramaic at 8:31 AM on November 16, 2007 [2 favorites]

The point of Metafilter is to share interesting content from the web.
posted by PugAchev at 8:31 AM on November 16, 2007

As the originator of the other post, let me state that my reason for creating it was a statement by cortex in the MeTa thread that sometimes pulled FPPs get reworked and shared in the different and more appropriate way

That was also the basis for making my post.

517: Lose? I'm not doing winning and losing. But as I said, I think I probably hadn't got the hang of this place at all. My misunderstanding.
posted by jennydiski at 8:33 AM on November 16, 2007

Isn't that the same thing I said, just one comment above that? So how come she gets the favorites - because she's a GIRL?!?!?!?

She gets favourites (well, at least one favourite) because she's ThePinkSuperhero.
posted by davey_darling at 8:33 AM on November 16, 2007

Heh. I originally ended my comment with "This place is such a girlzone!" but I decided that would be overkill. Shoulda left it.
posted by yhbc at 8:34 AM on November 16, 2007

"So how come she gets the favorites - because she's a GIRL?!?!?!?"

No, it's because she's a cute girl.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:34 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

I like FPPs that generate discussion - even shitstirring discussion. They're fun. But some of the best FPPs I've seen have mostly been ten or twelve comments long, each comment some minutes apart (while people take time to read the content that's linked), and each comment some variation of Wow! or Nice post! or Thanks!

But maybe that's just me.
posted by rtha at 8:34 AM on November 16, 2007 [2 favorites]

That was also the basis for making my post.

And since yours was the second such reworked post, it got removed. It's no big deal, its mostly just timing. Basically shmegegge's got it, context matters. A week from now a post like this wouldn't probably get deleted. This is not to say, by the way "oh please someone make a post almost like this in seven days time" just that this site is one with a semblance of a heartbeat and a memory and this was wrong place wrong time. Plus, what everyone else said about not making a post solely for the purposes of discussion.
posted by jessamyn at 8:37 AM on November 16, 2007

While I do think that discussions are important part of what makes MeFi great, this whole thing rubs me the wrong way. The post from yesterday, good discussion or not, was very clearly well-below the standards of a MeTa post. Miss Lynnster acknowledged as much in her more inside. It was deleted late, but it was a righteous axe.

The subsequent MeTa post was an appropriate place to discuss that. Of course there is room for disagreement, but it seems, frankly, childish to repost something to the front page in order to "continue a conversation that had been stopped," when there is an ongoing thread about the fact that the conversation was "stopped." Now, this MeTa thread contributes to my sense that pique is driving your actions, jennydiski. You've said before that you think that there is not enough criticism of the mods, and you may well be right, but I don't think that this is really an appropriate way to go about protesting their actions. It seems more like setting up a situation in which to complain, rather than addressing your concerns in any kind of reasoned way.
posted by OmieWise at 8:38 AM on November 16, 2007

No, it's because she's a cute girl.

I'd like to think people favorite the things I say because they want to favorite the things I say (for their own favorite purposes: agreement, remembering it for later, spite). Those of you who are favoriting me because of what I look like should move on to more successful methods of getting my attention. Like sending gifts of cold hard cash.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:40 AM on November 16, 2007 [7 favorites]

Just can't get the hang of this thing

This is no country for old men.
posted by yerfatma at 8:41 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

...
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:44 AM on November 16, 2007

jennysidki, But you get my point. Just smile and nod at the hazing, the front page of metatalk is pretty short.
posted by 517 at 8:45 AM on November 16, 2007

FWIW, links to the NY hollaback (which has links to other hollabacks--which are not affiliated with it but done as a courtesy--on its lefthand sidebar) have been posted within threads before.
posted by brujita at 9:08 AM on November 16, 2007

I have also been wondering, from a completely dispassionate curiosity, why there haven't been more posts addressing Astro Zombies and the needs of said Astro Zombies. Nothing to do with myself, of course; just something that I've noticed and wanted to bring up in a roundabout way.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:20 AM on November 16, 2007 [3 favorites]

Somewhere a kitchen has lost its cleaner.
posted by dios at 9:21 AM on November 16, 2007

Man, this place has turned into SUCH an astrozombiezone.
posted by yhbc at 9:21 AM on November 16, 2007

Can't we talk about anything without it devolving into a discussion about Astro Zombies? God.
posted by aramaic at 9:23 AM on November 16, 2007

Astrozombiezone? Devolving? Yes, this is a really cool place for Astro Zombies.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:25 AM on November 16, 2007 [5 favorites]

Won't someone please think of the Terrestrial Living?
posted by brain_drain at 9:30 AM on November 16, 2007 [5 favorites]

Yes, this is a really cool place for Astro Zombies.

You say that as if "Astro Zombies" is some sort of monolithic entity lacking individual opnions and emotions and reactions. I'm not sure that's the case. In fact, I'd like to hear Astro Zombie 3's take on the matter. I suspect it would be enlightening not just for us, but for you as well.
posted by dersins at 9:32 AM on November 16, 2007

Narf.
posted by Astro Zombie 3 at 9:34 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

See? Don't we all feel enlightened now?
posted by dersins at 9:35 AM on November 16, 2007

Astro Zombie, it's all about you. I don't know why you got so third person all of the sudden.
posted by iamkimiam at 9:38 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

“Klang's comment was clearly a joke.”

Apropos of what? Invoking a sexist stereotype had nothing to do with anything. So it was a sexist joke. The knee-jerk tolerance of this sort of thing is exactly what makes MeFi a boyzone and why a lot of women don't feel welcome here. And they tell you this and your response is..."you're being hysterical, you're overreacting, it's just a joke".

Fuck you, klang. Grow up.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:39 AM on November 16, 2007 [9 favorites]

*huffs vapors*

*gets hysterical*

Dude, you gotta try this stuff...
posted by quin at 9:41 AM on November 16, 2007

I love you too, EB.
posted by klangklangston at 9:41 AM on November 16, 2007 [3 favorites]

"Astro Zombie, it's all about you."

Man, dios comes to another thread and makes it all about Astro Zombie.
posted by klangklangston at 9:42 AM on November 16, 2007

Invoking a sexist stereotype had nothing to do with anything. So it was a sexist joke.

No, it wasn't. It was satire of a sexist (and gender bound) position, or that's how I took it.
posted by OmieWise at 9:47 AM on November 16, 2007

I used to say "but what about the discussion?!" but I have since realized that the posts which are centrally driven by the idea of talking end up being lame chatfilter, and the really great posts can sometimes be like rtha said above - the comments just become "wow, thanks!" because -- at least in my case -- I can't think of anything to bitch about.

... that's what comments are for, right ... ?
posted by blacklite at 9:47 AM on November 16, 2007

Can't we talk about anything without it devolving into a discussion about Astro Zombies? God.

At least we aren't talking about jonmc's ass, or my (quite large) penis.
posted by Meatbomb at 9:48 AM on November 16, 2007

Sorry, hit post too soon:

As satire it's not knee-jerk to "tolerate" it, since its whole purpose was to point out the idiocy of the position sent up. Not understanding satire may make some people feel uncomfortable, but it shouldn't outlaw the practice.
posted by OmieWise at 9:49 AM on November 16, 2007

BITCHFIGHT!
posted by quonsar at 9:50 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

“No, it wasn't. It was satire of a sexist (and gender bound) position, or that's how I took it.”

Really? I don't see the context. But I didn't read all these threads, either. Somewhere in all this have there been people arguing that women shouldn't be disturbed by this and they are overreacting?

...

Well, of course there is, isn't there? This is MetaFilter.

So, if that's what your joke was referring to, I take back my accusation and response, klang.

You'd think that jennydiski would get the reference, too, if it was so obvious. I think she has read these threads. Maybe if even she doesn't get it, it indicates the joke wasn't well-considered. And jokes such as these ought to be well-considered.

Even so, again, if it was intended to parody sexist comments that have appeared in these threads, I apologize for misunderstanding it.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:52 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

YOU KNOW that there are people reading this thread who are, indeed, serial flashers or public masterbators. There HAVE to be.
...
Well, of course there is, isn't there? This is MetaFilter.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 9:57 AM on November 16, 2007

"Somewhere in all this have there been people arguing that women shouldn't be disturbed by this and they are overreacting?"

I saw it as a riff on four panels' crazytalk title of his Meta thread from the other day, but I have a soft spot for the fuzzy gun-toting porn worker, so I may be biased here.
posted by jessamyn at 9:57 AM on November 16, 2007

The knee-jerk tolerance of this sort of thing is exactly what makes MeFi a boyzone and why a lot of women don't feel welcome here

No. False. Didn't you and I have a long discussion about how generalizations are bad and all people who make generalizations are mean and evil?

The problem with the boyzone remark is that it often stands in for something else. Most often, it stands in for "This isn't going the way I think it should. Things should be different, in my favor." As with the allegorical boy with a lupine problem, this screws things up for those currently suffering from the actual problem. There may be plenty of chauvinism going on at MetaFilter, but deleting a post that's simply a link to a craigslist post about some guy rolling out his personal welcome wagon is not evidence of a problem.

And why is the Internet male by default? Why MetaFilter? Because a man made it? The problem with staking out victimhood is it becomes self-fulfilling. Someone defend me from boyzone because I, being born a woman and thus distressed, am unable to do it myself. Ride to my rescue, Internet cowhands!

On a more personal note, the whole "feminist" position you've staked out has left "deeply felt sensitive guy" territory and rolled into "trying to get laid" territory. Too bad you couldn't have socked klang right in the nose so everyone in the lunchroom could see what a Good Guy you are. Had I but time and a time machine, all those John Hughes movies would be erased from our collective expectation sets of How the World Works.
posted by yerfatma at 10:00 AM on November 16, 2007 [25 favorites]

Maybe if even she doesn't get it, it indicates the joke wasn't well-considered. And jokes such as these ought to be well-considered.

Yes, I agree, and, again, this is my interpretation, but I think it was a general response to things like fourpanels's using "Hysterics" for the title of his ill-conceived MeTa post below. The point of my post was not to defend klang's as good or funny, but just to point out that I think it was being taken the wrong way, as a sexist joke, rather than a joke about sexism. I could have been more clear.
posted by OmieWise at 10:00 AM on November 16, 2007

On preview: EB, I never even considered you might not have gotten the joke. My white male chauvinist fault.
posted by yerfatma at 10:01 AM on November 16, 2007

"I saw it as a riff on four panels' crazytalk title of his Meta thread from the other day, but I have a soft spot for the fuzzy gun-toting porn worker, so I may be biased here."

Yeah, that's pretty much it, but I've given up on explaining jokes to EB, because he gets apoplectic and then gives a mealy-mouthed apology a few comments later.

And it distracts me from trying to come up with some quip about how hysteria and The Vapors are linked by masturbation.
posted by klangklangston at 10:01 AM on November 16, 2007

'Turning Japanese'? Fuck that noise. When I hear 'vapors,' I think of Biz Markie, and maybe, just maybe, Snoop.
posted by box at 10:07 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

Well I'd like some clarification on this.

I don't believe the discussion is continuing in the Metatalk thread at all. The Metatalk thread seems to be yet another "boyzone or no" discussion, with a healthy mixture of "fourpanels sucks! does not!". But there is no discussion like was being had on the original FPP.

Like Jenny, I don't think I've got the hang of this just yet. The original FPP consisted of a bad post, interesting discussion. Jenny argued rather incitefully in the Meta thread that discussion has to matter, and it's a shame to lose it. But the rule seemed to be that MeFi is about posts, not comments. And that's been pretty consistent.

So what is the remedy if there is a bad post that spawns the kind of discussion Mefi should be proud to have? Do we just lose what could have been? My thought was that you re-do the FPP and make it better, and hopefully a good discussion would ensue. I've seen others encouraged to re-do FPPs and that sounds like a good solution.

So that's what Jenny does, but then it is deleted, and the deletion reasons don't make much sense to me. If it was deleted for being a bad FPP then I'd understand that.

First, it is claimed that the discussion is ongoing in the Meta thread. I disagree. I don't see any discussion there that is relevant to Jenny's FPP. And considering the history of Meta threads, there never will be. Women sharing their experiences on this topic is not going to happen there. It's more defensiveness and snark and jokes. Witness this thread, which I am replying in perhaps against my better judgement.

Second, it is said that somebody else already made an FPP on a similar topic (from a completely different angle), and so too bad Jenny didn't start hers in time. Considering all of the computer games threads Mefi has been inundated with recently, I'd think similarly themed posts could be handled better than just deleting the second.

I'm one of the people who tries to avoid Mefi but since it's the main selling point of this website, I try every now and then. I don't think most of the posts are even close to "best of the web", and often posts that are great are followed by very disappointing comments. I guess I saw what Jenny was doing as experimental in a way, and I don't understand what rules were broken.
posted by Danila at 10:10 AM on November 16, 2007 [9 favorites]

“On a more personal note, the whole ‘feminist’ position you've staked out has left ‘deeply felt sensitive guy’ territory and rolled into ‘trying to get laid’ territory.”

Gosh, if just once I'd get laid because I'm a feminist male, this whole last twenty-five years of activism will have been worth it. I guess I've just been wasting my time.

Sarcasm aside, it's also not the case that my feminism and complaints about sexism are the result of being a “sensitive guy” with “deep feelings”. I'm trying to figure out what the analogous stock comment is when it's a white person attacking racism. Oh, yeah, the claim is that it's “out of guilt”.

One possibility y'all might consider is that, in general, I really hate seeing people being treated like shit and it pisses me off. Like most (but not all) places on the Internet, MetaFilter is dominated by men. Men make sexist comments all the time, and they do here on MeFi. When women complain, they're told they are too sensitive and that it's just a joke. Or they're asked if they're having their period. There's a long history of women complaining in MetaTalk that MeFi is a boyzone where sexist comments are tolerated. It's not just been one or two women who have said this. It's quite a few. And they are ignored or ridiculed. This pisses me off, and every time it happens, it pisses me off more.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:12 AM on November 16, 2007 [11 favorites]

Danila: So what is the remedy if there is a bad post that spawns the kind of discussion Mefi should be proud to have? Do we just lose what could have been? My thought was that you re-do the FPP and make it better, and hopefully a good discussion would ensue. I've seen others encouraged to re-do FPPs and that sounds like a good solution... So that's what Jenny does, but then it is deleted, and the deletion reasons don't make much sense to me.

No, that's what never used baby shoes did. Jenny's post came right after, as in directly after, and therefore was superfluous.
posted by koeselitz at 10:15 AM on November 16, 2007

sorry, not perfect link, scroll up
posted by koeselitz at 10:16 AM on November 16, 2007

“So what is the remedy if there is a bad post that spawns the kind of discussion Mefi should be proud to have? Do we just lose what could have been?”

Yes. Is that so bad? Really?

“I don't think most of the posts are even close to ‘best of the web’...”

Yes, and that's because people have come up with all sorts of excuses for sub-par posts. Such as: good discussion is what's important.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:16 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

Danila, I'm not sure anyone has argued that the discussion from the first deleted FPP has continued in MeTa, I think the contention has been that a discussion about the merits of that deletion is continuing in that thread, making subsequent threads which are at least partly a response to that deletion (jennydiski's FPP and this thread) superfluous.
posted by OmieWise at 10:20 AM on November 16, 2007

“because he gets apoplectic and then gives a mealy-mouthed apology a few comments later.”

I don't think that's fair. This time, my apology was mealy-mouthed. I admit it, it was ambivalent. Because while your comment still doesn't sit quite right with me, I also see that it was satire and I took it completely differently and wrongly.

But I've admitted I was wrong and/or apologized to you a couple of previous times in the last couple of weeks and I'm certain that at least the first of the two was absolutely unqualified. And the second, as far as I can recall, was unqualified, too, though I'm not certain. So I don't think it's fair for you to accuse me of making faux apologies.

I don't like it when people do that, myself. I shouldn't have done so in this instance. I wasn't trying to have it both ways, though, I was just typing at the same time as I was thinking about it.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:22 AM on November 16, 2007

because men are such pigs, chapter 17,459. hey, am i gonna get the girl at the end of this story?
posted by bruce at 10:31 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

hey, am i gonna get the girl at the end of this story?

Signs point to "no."
posted by dersins at 10:39 AM on November 16, 2007 [3 favorites]

No man has ever gotten laid for being feminist. However, they do get the dubious pleasure of comforting female friends when they are fucked over by their asshole boyfriends.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:41 AM on November 16, 2007 [10 favorites]

So there are two reasons that I don't like the "insert sexist statement here" jokes.

First of all, sometimes that kind of joke isn't really a joke. Usually it is, but sometimes it's a way of putting women (or some other marginalized group) in their place and reminding them of their marginalized status, but doing it in such a way that they can't call you on it, because then they're humorless losers who can't take a joke. In real life, it's generally pretty clear whether it's a joke or a "joke." You can tell from tone of voice and from your general sense of whether the person is or isn't an asshole. It's harder to tell on MetaFilter. It's hard to keep track of which posters are and aren't assholes, and there is no tone of voice. You know you aren't an asshole, but it's harder for the rest of us to know how to take it.

Second of all, it's not really funny. It's not clever. It's not original. And if you're going to risk making people uncomfortable, I think you should at least have something genuinely amusing to say.
posted by craichead at 10:48 AM on November 16, 2007 [22 favorites]

jennydiski is four panels?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:56 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

Jesus, Alvy. That was low.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:02 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

Second of all, it's not really funny. It's not clever. It's not original. And if you're going to risk making people uncomfortable, I think you should at least have something genuinely amusing to say.

I actually disagree with this, and for one specific reason: "Funny" may be the most subject experience in the world. There may be reasons for criticizing jokes -- I myself am not fond of bullying that passes itself off as comedy -- but "not funny" is not really an effective critique. Because somebody probably finds it funny. And transgressive humor is always going to be hideously unfunny to someone who does not appreciate the transgression, but it might be uproariously funny to someone who does.

On he post 9/11 issue, The Onion was going to have a story titled something like "Business back to usual at the Septagon," but they decided to pull it. They explained that one of the risks of satire is that its not always certain who or what is being satirized. They're right. It's the risk you run when you tell jokes that cross lines. But comedy needs to be able to cross those lines. Otherwise, all we have left are knock knock jokes, and, except for the interrupting cow one, there has never been a knock knock joke that was worth a damn.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:03 AM on November 16, 2007 [2 favorites]

Jenny argued rather incitefully

I cannot argue with that.

I really hate seeing people being treated like shit and it pisses me off. Like most (but not all) places on the Internet, MetaFilter is dominated by men.

Whoa, don't stake out too radical a position. The question for me is: why are places on the Internet dominated by men?

1. How do you know I'm even a man?
2. Online, what advantage do men have that allows them to dominate a discussion? I can't physically frighten anyone, so what am I doing that's planting the Penis Flag in the ground?

If you mean that men tend to make a bunch of noise and flame each other in some tired repetition of real-life pissing contests and this causes women to give up on sites on the Internet, I can't argue with it. But it rings a bit hollow: if I signed up on TheKnot.com or TheNest.com right now and started flaming the hell out of the place, would I be able to take the place over by sundown tomorrow? Unlikely. It's more likely I'd get torn to virtual shreds by the community elders there. That would be a girlzone.

The shitty fact of it is people tend to be bores who engage in territorial pissing contests out of fear and insecurity. To somehow assign blame for this truth to the male population just because they are either more practiced at it or simply more populous at MetaFilter is to once again encourage a culture of victimhood that doesn't need to exist on the 'net. There's no obligation to play through the same tropes you do in real life. Assuming a certain amount of safe anonymity, a site on the net could be a level playing field where words really are just words and only have the power to cause fear if you let them.

I realize that's theoretical and I'm sure everyone's got an example of a sister-in-law's maid of honor who got attacked via Nonfriendster or something, but I think rushing to the defense of aggrieved women in castles is giving them a fish rather than letting them figure out how to operate the pole themselves*. I spent a long time treating a female relative as a delicate, hot-house flower and worrying myself sick about how stable she'd be on her own. I'd have been better off helping to push her out on her own, because she's done fine.

Any whiff of sexual innuendo or lady parts you might catch in that sentence is a result of your poor breeding, dear reader.
posted by yerfatma at 11:05 AM on November 16, 2007 [2 favorites]

Ouroboros thread.
posted by bru at 11:07 AM on November 16, 2007

There's no obligation to play through the same tropes you do in real life. Assuming a certain amount of safe anonymity, a site on the net could be a level playing field where words really are just words and only have the power to cause fear if you let them.

This seems like an astonishingly un-nuanced view of human psychology to me. We live in the world, with all of its well-documented sexist imperfections, of which the internet is a very small part. It would be nice to think that the rest of reality would have no bearing on what happens online, but the argument about MeFi being a boyzone is precisely that sexism is used as a source of power (often through humor), and this replicates and reinforces unacceptable behavior that women encounter throughout their lives. The argument that this should not be a problem through effort of will is unconvincing, as it assumes that that effort of will should be something that women should be happy to expend. It's a perfectly legitimate criticism of this place (or any other) that it makes one feel shitty because one belongs to a certain class of people and that other members of "the community" should act with more civility.
posted by OmieWise at 11:14 AM on November 16, 2007 [4 favorites]

That was low.

Meh, one is coming from a position of sincerity and the other is just bored of jerking himself off to sleep (Guess which is which, and get a shiny nickle!), but both posted deletionbait to the blue, and both 'Took it to MeTa' for disingenuous purposes. Motivations may be different, but both are just trying to stir the shit.

I can't physically frighten anyone

Well, now that there are profile pics...
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:14 AM on November 16, 2007

I'm such a freakin' troublemaker. Damn. Honestly, in the beginning I just cracked up over a little sketch of some guy's banana & apricots. That's all it was. I'll stick to not posting silly from hereon out if I can avoid it since apparently it just leads to no damn good.
posted by miss lynnster at 11:18 AM on November 16, 2007 [3 favorites]

Ok, AZ, you're right that there may be people who find drive-by sexist comments high-larious. But I'd still submit that they're un-clever and unoriginal. And it's a bit goofy to suggest that there's anything transgressive about a joke that stale.
posted by craichead at 11:20 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm such a freakin' troublemaker. Damn. posted by miss lynnster

Don't take it personally (and don't take the credit, either); this is an ongoing issue here and I have a feeling it will outlive both of us.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:21 AM on November 16, 2007 [4 favorites]

except for the interrupting cow one, there has never been a knock knock joke that was worth a damn.

This is possibly the truest and least disputable thing said in this whole thread.
posted by rtha at 11:23 AM on November 16, 2007 [3 favorites]

“but I think rushing to the defense of aggrieved women in castles is giving them a fish rather than letting them figure out how to operate the pole themselves.”

I'm not rushing to the defense of women, I'm just complaining about bad behavior just like I would any other bad behavior. You keep coming up with ulterior motives for why a man would be upset at sexism against women. Can't it just be that I don't like people treating other people like shit? Why, yes, yes it can.

“Online, what advantage do men have that allows them to dominate a discussion?”

This is unbelievably disingenuous. I don't even know where to begin. Do you really think that sexism relies upon the immediate threat of physical violence?

Also, what OmieWise said.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:25 AM on November 16, 2007 [3 favorites]

Otherwise, all we have left are knock knock jokes, and, except for the interrupting cow one, there has never been a knock knock joke that was worth a damn.

I had no idea that this would end up being apropros on multiple fronts three and a half months later.
posted by cortex at 11:26 AM on November 16, 2007 [3 favorites]

Odd how when a handful of women actually speak out to say that they aren't happy with the social/political attitude of the site, we are told that we are claiming victimhood. Victimhood is shutting up, not speaking out.

Women in castles? What goes on in your head? No one is asking anything of you, only objecting to you.

But OmniWise is right, I have got other things to do.
posted by jennydiski at 11:27 AM on November 16, 2007 [6 favorites]

knock knock
posted by Stynxno at 11:38 AM on November 16, 2007

Moo!
posted by Item at 11:40 AM on November 16, 2007 [4 favorites]

Have you heard the dead interrupting cow one. Here goes:

Knock knock!
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:42 AM on November 16, 2007

"Who's there?", he asked expectantly.
posted by yhbc at 11:45 AM on November 16, 2007

And the joke is that I never answer, but it's hard to represent that in a thread.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:47 AM on November 16, 2007 [4 favorites]

I've got a great knock knock joke.
posted by dersins at 12:00 PM on November 16, 2007

You start.
posted by dersins at 12:00 PM on November 16, 2007

Knock knock!
posted by yhbc at 12:02 PM on November 16, 2007

Who's there?
posted by dersins at 12:05 PM on November 16, 2007

Boo Fucking.
posted by yhbc at 12:05 PM on November 16, 2007

...Control Freak: now this where you type in Control Freak Who ?
posted by y2karl at 12:06 PM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

Yay Knockers!
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 12:06 PM on November 16, 2007

Who's he fucking?
posted by dersins at 12:06 PM on November 16, 2007

er, this is where you type in Boo Fucking Control Freak Who ?
posted by y2karl at 12:07 PM on November 16, 2007

"Ouroboros thread."
posted by bru

How long have you waited, bru, to snake that word into a comment?
posted by Cranberry at 12:09 PM on November 16, 2007

Well goddammit I'm not a victim and it irks me to even POSSIBLY be painted with that brush, so fuck whoever said that.

There is validity to the boyzone... thing... but it's not gonna change by making up new PC adherence rules, it's gonna change when people fight their battles to their personal satisfaction.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:09 PM on November 16, 2007 [3 favorites]

This here is a tricky issue:

"Invoking a sexist stereotype had nothing to do with anything. So it was a sexist joke."
No, it wasn't. It was satire of a sexist (and gender bound) position, or that's how I took it.
posted by OmieWise at 12:47 PM on November 16 [+] [!]
and
So there are two reasons that I don't like the "insert sexist statement here" jokes:
First of all, sometimes that kind of joke isn't really a joke. Usually it is, but sometimes it's a way of putting women (or some other marginalized group) in their place and reminding them of their marginalized status, but doing it in such a way that they can't call you on it, because then they're humorless losers who can't take a joke. In real life, it's generally pretty clear whether it's a joke or a "joke." You can tell from tone of voice and from your general sense of whether the person is or isn't an asshole. It's harder to tell on MetaFilter. It's hard to keep track of which posters are and aren't assholes, and there is no tone of voice. You know you aren't an asshole, but it's harder for the rest of us to know how to take it. [...]

posted by craichead at 1:48 PM on November 16 [1 favorite +] [!]

It's hard to know who's parodying assholes and who's just being an asshole. And once the fake-asshole stuff is thick enough, normal humans won't want to hang around.

For a recent thread, the middle of which was a funny-at-first and then uncomfortably-realistic "we're being macho/sexist/lame-o internet Dudez -- but it's ironic! so we will do it some more! Also may I present you with a picture of my weiner!", please see Spock LOL fatties. Tell me how someone could tell the different between the middle of that thread and a comparable thread on another site where people meant it.

I'm not saying "no humor please", but I'm saying that the line between boyzone vs. note-perfect-parody-of-boyzone is awful thin.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:11 PM on November 16, 2007 [4 favorites]

The "cult of personality" is useful in this way, and like I said in the other thread, it's really important that so many of us mefites care about one another enough to allow greater judgments of where people are coming from into the mix. Take klang's low-hanging fruit gender jokes. I make those, too, because they are funnay, but they sure aren't unique around here. I know from reading the site so blooming much that he's not a sexist, just a sonofabitch.

And as I said in the other thread, too. Laydeez, use the social networking features you are supposed to be so deft at maeuvering to gin up a foundation of girl support. It's here. I got your back and a bucket of cocks.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:16 PM on November 16, 2007

maeuvering

This typo sounds like some 40's era powder room feminist movement... lead my Mauve Maeve, the Men-Murdering Maven
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:18 PM on November 16, 2007

Yeah, I know klang was joking with "vapors" above, and I actually think that was fine in this context. I have a pretty good bead on who's joking in general. I'm saying after a while, in cases where the whole background of a discussion becomes ironic-fake-boyzone, that might really not be all that different from its just being a real boyzone, in terms of its being tedious and discouraging certain kinds of participation.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:28 PM on November 16, 2007 [7 favorites]

So, having just jumped into this, I have to say that two things become immediately apparent to me.

1. Apparently figuring out how to use Metafilter appropriately is super hard for some people.

2. EB is an asshole.
posted by kbanas at 12:33 PM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

You'll have to take a number, honey.
posted by Floydd at 12:40 PM on November 16, 2007

Ethereal Bligh: my take on it is when someone starts bitching about the patriarchy or some other claim of oppression when there is a completely unbiased, non-oppressive reason for an action, one probably ought to expect that their complaints will be mocked through usage of stereotypical "bigoted" statements.

I just wanted to repeat this comment from dios. I think it explains klangklangston's comment, and it's definitely a practice I've seen employed in MeTa before.

Also, I really hate it. If someone is making a good effort to be a reasonable member of this community, then I think it's poor form to mock them instead of seriously addressing their concerns or questions. Just because it's MetaTalk, snark is not always appropriate, especially this particular brand of snark.

I mean, in the real world if I tried to have a serious conversation with my peers about something, this wouldn't work as a response, even one intended as humorous -- it would come off as crass and sort of cavemanish. I've seen this tactic used in MeTa threads on women, homosexuals, republicans, oversized people, whatever, and sometimes the comments even get favorited so I guess someone really does find them to be funny. It just seems really puerile.

Possibly I am still just annoyed at klang for his comment in this thread (advice re girlfriend in high school).
posted by onlyconnect at 12:43 PM on November 16, 2007 [4 favorites]

I'm saying after a while, in cases where the whole background of a discussion becomes ironic-fake-boyzone, that might really not be all that different from its just being a real boyzone, in terms of its being tedious and discouraging certain kinds of participation.

This makes perfect sense.
posted by OmieWise at 12:45 PM on November 16, 2007

1. I wish the FPP hadn't been deleted, as I think it was well put together, just poorly timed. A discussion of the hollaback phenomenon would've been enlightening, especially because the women behind that site seem to believe any compliment from a stranger is evil and bad.

b. Discussions like these aren't necessarily bad things.
posted by waraw at 12:51 PM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

"I'm saying after a while, in cases where the whole background of a discussion becomes ironic-fake-boyzone, that might really not be all that different from its just being a real boyzone, in terms of its being tedious and discouraging certain kinds of participation."

There's that, and there's also the problem that emerges of the generalized "sexist" ad hominem regarding discussions of "boyzone," something I felt Jenny leaned on pretty heavily with her insinuations about the moderation and tenor. That means that a male respondent has to navigate the Scylla of publicly agreeing to something false through false piety toward gendered concerns, and the Charybdis of sincere disagreement being discounted as a product of andronormativism.

That's combined with a handful of theory arguments back and forth about whether, say, someone's "aggressive" dismissal of concerns regarding the contested space of Metafilter discussion is a legitimate expression of their feelings or if it's part of the culture that evokes those feelings.

Combine that with a handful of bad faith assumptions, some positional soapboxing and the very fact that absolutely nothing will be accomplished beyond the idea of having a discussion (even a fruitless one) on the ways that gender impacts conversation here is somehow positive (as certainly nothing will happen with regard to Jenny's dead post) and it's hard to come up with anything but bored snark, especially if you've seen this conversation before.

Could something positive come out of one of these discussions? Yes, I believe, if there were some sort of project formulated to move forward with, especially one that could be implemented structurally within the collective consciousness. Yes, if there was an attempt made to separate the legitimate concerns of boyzone culture from the attempt to justify this shitty call-out (which is why I believe that most people are talking past each other).

As it stands? The only people that will stick around for stuff like that are the exact ones that shouldn't be leading the project (just like how often the most active activists are the same assholes that you wouldn't want running a tea party).
posted by klangklangston at 12:52 PM on November 16, 2007 [2 favorites]

Re: Anal ultimatum— I explained it here, though I suppose I should be more careful about using in-group slang on MeFi.
posted by klangklangston at 12:56 PM on November 16, 2007

Does anybody wanna go in on some stocks with me?
posted by vito90 at 1:00 PM on November 16, 2007

You mean like a pillory, vito? BDSM is hawt.
posted by dios at 1:02 PM on November 16, 2007

Could something positive come out of one of these discussions? Yes, I believe, if there were some sort of project formulated to move forward with, especially one that could be implemented structurally within the collective consciousness.

You know that, in John Gray's petri dish at least, this is the quintessense of andronormative thinking. We Venutians supposedly prefer freeform continual exchange of perspectives, with steadily improved mutual understanding and empathy, to a format of communication that preferences only lines of discourse that result in the rectification of problems.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:12 PM on November 16, 2007

I agree with LobsterMitten.

Coincidentally the AskMe thread I linked to above was about a guy who got used to talking to his girlfriend mainly through irony and sarcasm, to the point where it was hard for him to tell even in real life when she was being serious and when she was kidding. Some people in the thread even thought that she really meant all the sarcastic bad stuff she was saying about him, and was only hiding it with humor. So, yeah, sometimes in these threads it's hard to decypher who is being an asshat and who is just trying to be ironic, and it can also just really wear a person down.

klangklangston, are you saying that your comment in that thread was ironic, given the origin link you provided? I didn't take it that way in the thread, and I'm not sure it's clear to the average reader you meant it that way.

and it's hard to come up with anything but bored snark, especially if you've seen this conversation before.

I don't know the whole history of this particular series of threads, but I don't think bored snark is a good response to any discussion that you'd like to see "something positive come out of."
posted by onlyconnect at 1:13 PM on November 16, 2007

but I have a soft spot for the fuzzy gun-toting porn worker, so I may be biased here.

'Poodle with a mohawk' of your very own, I suppose.

And I'm not too happy with the image of you as the Ma Barker of Metafilter your remark tends to evoke in my mind, Jessamyn.
posted by jamjam at 1:15 PM on November 16, 2007

The point that is getting lost in the midst of the stupid derails is that as usual within a few responses to this "why was I deleted" post Jessamyn provided a perfectly clear explanation of usual practices in front page moderation: "most times when there is a post on a topic that is already being discussed in a post on the front page, the second post gets removed as a double."

I would feel sorry for jennydiski being subjected to the usual gratuitous MetaTalk flogging if it weren't for the fact that all her comments subsequent are steadfastly ignoring this simple and straightforward explanation. You want to encourage the examination of a perspective of direction of discussion under a general cateogory (i.e. exhibitionism)? Post your examples in the existing thread on the topic.

The subject has now had three FPPs and two MeTas, it's ridiculous. pruning the FPPs down to one seems to me totally reasonable and the general policy of discouraging "here's a different angle on that topic below" posting is a sound one.
posted by nanojath at 1:15 PM on November 16, 2007 [3 favorites]

“Could something positive come out of one of these discussions?”

Of course it could. People like you could stop your obscurantist bullshit and listen to the numerous women who are telling you that a) MetaFilter is unfriendly to women in a typically sexist way, and b) jokes like yours, even when satire, are among the ways in which it's unfriendly.

Bored snark in this context is sexist and the fact that you don't realize this is revealing. When several women are complaining about what they perceive as sexism, bored snark from a man in response is indisputably sexist. It's also typical of the tactics men use to marginalize women who dare to speak up.

“Some people in the thread even thought that she really meant all the sarcastic bad stuff she was saying about him, and was only hiding it with humor.”

I come from a family steeped in sarcasm. We make sarcasm an art form. And you know? It's disguised hostility. Don't let anyone bullshit you that it's not.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:17 PM on November 16, 2007 [2 favorites]

Reading these threads exhausts me, because I usually get onto them when they're 100+ comments long but I still persist. I've read similar threads to these on MeTa over and over again and in the vain hope that something will change, I still do. But it never does. No one changes their view on what they're certain they're right about and arguing on the internet has got to be one of the most pointless exercises to date.

Oh, and why does being a male feminist automatically mean you must have a hidden agenda? Is that because people are so astounded that men might actually CARE about the welfare of women?
posted by liquorice at 1:18 PM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

You know what I would like? If people stopped explaining that there was no point in discussing this.

I often feel uncomfortable, as a girl on MetaFilter. I'm really trying to approach this in a sensible way and not be all screechy about it. But I feel how I feel and I'd appreciate it if y'all would stop telling me to hush.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 1:19 PM on November 16, 2007 [11 favorites]

"You know that, in John Gray's petri dish at least, this is the quintessense of andronormative thinking. We Venutians supposedly prefer freeform continual exchange of perspectives, with steadily improved mutual understanding and empathy, to a format of communication that preferences only lines of discourse that result in the rectification of problems."

Yes, yes. On the other hand, I tend to view that as too reductive a view of women and generally something that's culturally constructed.

Further, as someone who has ordered pizzas with an anti-war group more than once, I may have a lower-than-average tolerance for privileging discussions of food over than getting food. With the number of things that are available, a conversation has to either be productive or entertaining to be worth continuing.

"klangklangston, are you saying that your comment in that thread was ironic, given the origin link you provided? I didn't take it that way in the thread, and I'm not sure it's clear to the average reader you meant it that way."

The "anal ultimatum" is an immature and passive-aggressive way of breaking up primarily. I probably shouldn't have posted it, given that it's only a way to make the lives of two jerks worse, rather than move them past jerkdom.

"I don't know the whole history of this particular series of threads, but I don't think bored snark is a good response to any discussion that you'd like to see "something positive come out of.""

This discussion was fucked from the outset. I believe that in a different context, a different and productive conversation could be held.
posted by klangklangston at 1:26 PM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

miss lynnster: I'll stick to not posting silly from hereon

It's actually spelled "heroin."
posted by koeselitz at 1:32 PM on November 16, 2007 [5 favorites]

klangklangston writes "I believe that in a different context, a different and productive conversation could be held."

Well, despite three FPPs and two MeTas, we haven't found that context yet. That leaves me feeling somewhat disappointed.
posted by never used baby shoes at 1:35 PM on November 16, 2007

Yes, yes. On the other hand...

Yeah no fucking kidding. But I think a lot of the "when do we get change out of this, please get to the point" types of comments actually feel silencing to women who just need to jam, and be listened to, about how they're not listened to about how they're note listened to ad infinitum. I think it's a valid observation that there's not a lot of validation here.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:36 PM on November 16, 2007

"Oh, and why does being a male feminist automatically mean you must have a hidden agenda? Is that because people are so astounded that men might actually CARE about the welfare of women?"

It doesn't. It does mean that you have an overt agenda.

"I often feel uncomfortable, as a girl on MetaFilter. I'm really trying to approach this in a sensible way and not be all screechy about it. But I feel how I feel and I'd appreciate it if y'all would stop telling me to hush."

I really hope that this isn't directed at me, since that's not what I'm trying to convey—I think that there could be an intelligent and productive discussion about women being uncomfortable on Metafilter. I do not believe that this or the other thread is an intelligent and productive discussion about women being uncomfortable on Metafilter. I would support a new MeTa about that, but I feel like the well was poisoned here from the first post on.

"Bored snark in this context is sexist and the fact that you don't realize this is revealing. When several women are complaining about what they perceive as sexism, bored snark from a man in response is indisputably sexist. It's also typical of the tactics men use to marginalize women who dare to speak up."

Oh, EB, how about you stop trying to divine what's revealing about what I say, and what I don't realize. I know that you've carved out a position as patronizer-in-chief, but this is exactly what I mentioned prior regarding ad hominems and false piety. Perhaps you were too busy rifling through your library for the proper Greek spelling of Scylla and Charybdis?
posted by klangklangston at 1:36 PM on November 16, 2007

I would feel sorry for jennydiski being subjected to the usual gratuitous MetaTalk flogging if it weren't for the fact that all her comments subsequent are steadfastly ignoring this simple and straightforward explanation.

Shit, how am I going to cope without your pity?

One of the problems here is that there are some people who quite wrongly assume that this is the wittiest, most savage arena on the planet. So far (to quote a UK politican) it's like being savaged by a dead sheep.

Being big, bad and dangerous is OK for playtime, but the world is in deep shit and could do with a lot more considered discourse. This may not be the best place for it.
posted by jennydiski at 1:40 PM on November 16, 2007 [3 favorites]

I agree with EB.
Also, among strangers, err on the side of caution when it comes to possible offence. If nothing else, you'll be funnier working against the constraint.
posted by Abiezer at 1:40 PM on November 16, 2007

Ethereal Bligh: The knee-jerk tolerance of this sort of thing is exactly what makes MeFi a boyzone ---

Metafilter is a boyzone? You don't get around much - in real life or on the net - do you? The discussions here are almost always a notch above the rest of the internet.
posted by Termite at 1:41 PM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

“Oh, and why does being a male feminist automatically mean you must have a hidden agenda? Is that because people are so astounded that men might actually CARE about the welfare of women?”

Apparently. I'm getting really tired of it. And, as you say, it also says something sad about how people think about these issues. In fact, I'm not really comfortable with how you formulated it yourself. I'm not a feminist because I have a specific motivation to care about the welfare of women qua women, I'm a feminist because women are a class of human beings who are being treated unjustly, every day, the world around. I don't care because sexism happens to be an injustice that is inflicted upon women, I care because sexism is an injustice that happens to be inflicted upon women.

I care for the same reasons as I care about racism. Except, you know, that sexism affects 52 percent of the world's population and while race slavery has largely been eradicated from the world, sex slavery has not.

On Preview:

“Oh, EB, how about you stop trying to divine what's revealing about what I say, and what I don't realize”

I don't have to “divine” it. You revealed, it's there for everyone to see. Likewise, you also demonstrated your lack of understanding. My saying so is neither an ad hominem nor false piety.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:41 PM on November 16, 2007 [5 favorites]

I've just realized I sort of do feel obliged to pop into every feminism/boyzone thread, building up my cred over time as a reasonable feminist with a penchant for filthy humor and a willingness to take my licks.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:33 PM on November 16 [+] [!]

Just stopping back in to say: This rings very true to me. Not about you specifically, but as an experience that smart and spirited people have in trying to stay in groups that are in some way exclusionary -- spending a lot of time "keeping up one's cred" as being "not one of THOSE types". God knows I spent my life from ages 14-21 in pretty much a continual spasm of this mindset -- including trying to stay cool in the eyes of some real genuine assholes -- and this is still my immediate, uncontrollable response to certain situations. (Eg in my male-dominated academic sub-discipline.) Feeling as if you need to make a big point of being a certain way (tough, sex-talking, un-offendable), so that the people who are controlling the discussion will take you seriously.

Probably guys have their own version of this -- witness the hassley attitude toward guys who speak up here to say "that's offensive" or other un-tough things. So maybe it's just the price that everyone pays to get into this pub. Dunno. But now, in real life or online, when I find myself wanting to comment in a way that shows off my macho side, I usually just don't comment -- exactly because when I get that "defend-my-macho/sextalking/etc cred" feeling it's a sign to me that the tenor of the discussion sucks.
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:44 PM on November 16, 2007 [17 favorites]

Being big, bad and dangerous is OK for playtime, but the world is in deep shit and could do with a lot more considered discourse. This may not be the best place for it.
posted by jennydiski at 3:40 PM on November 16

Shit. You are so right. But really, you are clearly an enlightened above-it-all British sophisticate that can spot these complex paradigms in the world and work to change them. I wish I could help you, but I'm just a dim-witted American Neanderthal who can't think about these things because I am too busy trying to figure out which woman I am going to club over the head with my freakishly large cock and drag back to my cave.
posted by dios at 1:46 PM on November 16, 2007 [3 favorites]

I really hope that this isn't directed at me, since that's not what I'm trying to convey—I think that there could be an intelligent and productive discussion about women being uncomfortable on Metafilter. I do not believe that this or the other thread is an intelligent and productive discussion about women being uncomfortable on Metafilter.

Well, first: I generally find you a fun and amusing dude, and I want to point out that I recognize that the men who are willing to sincerely enter into conversations with women about this are ...kind of unfairly taking the hit for the many men who won't even engage. So... I guess I'm sorry if you're getting caught in that.

But I hope you can hear me when I say that I am having an intelligent and productive discussion about this, with or without your blessing. There are a lot of meaningful things in here for me. Such as reading about LobsterMitten and AmbrosiaVoyeur talking about the ways in which they come into these debates, for instance.

I'm not macho at all, and I often find women who are really intimidating, so it's really useful for me to hear ladies talking about the how and why openly.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 1:47 PM on November 16, 2007 [3 favorites]

I don't want to read about internetscene boyzone.

I don't want to read about why flashers flash.

I want to read about innovations in flashee responses to flashing.

Two FPPs that hinted they might eventually fill the bill got deleted. One sucked, the other sucked less but got canned as a "double."

Jenny Diski's post may not've been spectacular, but it was not a double of the FPP on why flashers flash. Flashee does not equal flasher. Unless we're assuming that the subaltern experience is lesserthan or subsumed within the experience of the dominantyaaaaadadadaaaa, but again whether or not the world is kind to the subaltern is not what I want to read about. That is not the can of worms I want to open because it is open already and the worms all crawled out and dried up and died about fiftytwo years ago. The can of still-juicy worms I and Jenny Diski and a BUNCH OF PEOPLE want to open is forever getting kicked out of reach before we can really bust into the thing properly and get a look at the wiggly goodness inside. Every foray into the dark unexplored gets the axe--I'm not even quibbling about the reasons for the axings, which after all have so far been pretty solid, but nevertheless I want to open the can, if there even is a damn can, and look at the worms in it.

If Jenny Diski finds something other than hollaback out there, can she post it in, what, two days? Three weeks? If somebody else finds something other than hollaback on this topic can he/she post sooner than Jenny Diski?

If it gets posted can it be sidebarred? 'Cause I'd really like to read about it. I haven't seen it before and find it interesting, you know, in a "best-of-the-web" kind of way.
posted by Don Pepino at 1:50 PM on November 16, 2007

Jesus christ, dios, try to be less reflexively defensive if you want your sarcasm to sting.
posted by OmieWise at 1:50 PM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

"Well, despite three FPPs and two MeTas, we haven't found that context yet. That leaves me feeling somewhat disappointed."

Two (rightly) deleted FPPs, and two disingenuous MeTas? The one FPP left I haven't really read.

There's a remedy for that disappointment: A new MeTa that explains why these discussions aren't working and cites posts and comments that form a broader context to support the idea that there is a boyzone and that something can be done about it.

"Yeah no fucking kidding. But I think a lot of the "when do we get change out of this, please get to the point" types of comments actually feel silencing to women who just need to jam, and be listened to, about how they're not listened to about how they're note listened to ad infinitum. I think it's a valid observation that there's not a lot of validation here."

I can understand that, and (NOT IRONIST) I think it's a valid complaint. It's just that I think something as complex as contested gender relations in MeFi is a problem that requires more than just validation, and I'll also cop to coming at it with the (likely poorly communicated) point of view that OF COURSE those complaints are valid, as I've remarked frequently prior, which leads to a bit of impatience when I feel like there's wheel-reinvention abounding. It ends up feeling like kabuki, with the socially-mandated validation of feelings needing to happen prior to any change, when "we" all know (perceived ideological cohort "we) that those feelings are valid.

I also like to skip the reading of the minutes at board meetings.
posted by klangklangston at 1:51 PM on November 16, 2007

This place is really starting to depress me, lately.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:54 PM on November 16, 2007

*eats popcorn*

I don't even know what the hell you people are talking about, but I'm glad half you dorks tipped your hat to jennydiski when she signed up, and now she's gleefully shitting in your plate o' beans. I, for one, think she is a lonely idiot, and don't feel the need to further explain myself.
posted by phaedon at 1:54 PM on November 16, 2007 [3 favorites]

You're probably right, Omie. But I wondered if I was just misreading her earlier in this thread, so I went and read that website linked to in her profile. Re-reading her comments here, I think I was responding to something implied in her comment.
posted by dios at 2:03 PM on November 16, 2007

Everything is offensive to somebody.

Some people fetishize being offended. Some people will parse and parse and parse.

If we bow down to that kind of thing... well... just kiss Metafilter goodbye. Is that what we want? People getting kicked for saying "cunt", "pussy" or "cock sucker?"

Just like any other kind of expressive form you can't always fret about people taking offense.
posted by tkchrist at 2:03 PM on November 16, 2007 [2 favorites]

This place is really starting to depress me, lately.

Me too.
posted by tkchrist at 2:04 PM on November 16, 2007

as someone who has ordered pizzas with an anti-war group more than once, I may have a lower-than-average tolerance for privileging discussions of food over than getting food.

klangklangston: that is lovely, and thank you for it.

Also - I think this has moved beyond the stated purpose of the thread (it was a good deletion, and someone can post some good anti-flasher stuff in a few weeks), and also isn't really about what the site as a whole Should Do About Sexism. I think the only solution to the constant ironic-sexism thing I was mentioning is just for people who post that stuff (who I think are mostly not sexists) to realize that it can be silencing in its effect, and to voluntarily hold themselves back sometimes.

I don't think it's anything that a site policy could deal with effectively. I, and hmsbeagle and others, are trying to make the case that this stuff has an (unintended) effect that people (nonsexist men) should be more aware of when they post. Talking about it isn't venting or seeking validation. It's meant to be informative to people who might choose to change their behavior once they're informed.
posted by LobsterMitten at 2:04 PM on November 16, 2007

Holy crap tkchrist, let me just say you have no idea the world of hurt you just walked into. Learn from my mistakes, pull back while you still can.
posted by aramaic at 2:05 PM on November 16, 2007

Being big, bad and dangerous is OK for playtime, but the world is in deep shit and could do with a lot more considered discourse. This may not be the best place for it.

If you think you've found the Archimedean point from which to change the world for the better, may I be the first to suggest that you go there and start hefting that long, long lever?
posted by anotherpanacea at 2:08 PM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

But now, in real life or online, when I find myself wanting to comment in a way that shows off my macho side, I usually just don't comment -- exactly because when I get that "defend-my-macho/sextalking/etc cred" feeling it's a sign to me that the tenor of the discussion sucks.

Everything you've said in this thread is so right on, LobserMitten. Anyone who thinks this isn't a productive conversation should take the time to reread all you've written here.

I've done it too -- made the crude joke at my expense before someone else could, or got returned insult for insult with a lightning quickness -- and the point is that it is a sucker's game. It shuts out the quieter and more thoughtful from participating. It convinces the jerks that it's all good, because you are aping them. It hides whatever you might have said that's meaningful in more heat than light.

I'd much rather see everyone who feels the same focus their energies on writing what's smart and real and true than on cheap snark. You can't fight every gender battle on metafilter or in general, and it's okay to be tired and to disengage when you need. But gunslinging and pitch perfect boyzone parodies don't provide any lasting satisfaction -- they just generate more of the same, until we're drowning in it.

This place is really starting to depress me, lately.

This is right on, too. Sad to say.
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