I am curious (podcast) August 28, 2008 2:18 AM Subscribe
Just personal curiosity at work here- I noticed a reference elsewhere a few days ago to recording the upcoming podcast, which, unaccountably, cheered me up. (I look forward to the podcasts, because like as not they cover something interesting I didn't see in my normal perusals of the site.) So, what I got to wondering was ...
... how long does the post production take after you guys record the 'cast? What's the process, Matt? :) Or is it sitting locked away in a vault, waiting to be published in the dark of night, when the entrails that need be cast are ripened sufficiently?
... how long does the post production take after you guys record the 'cast? What's the process, Matt? :) Or is it sitting locked away in a vault, waiting to be published in the dark of night, when the entrails that need be cast are ripened sufficiently?
VOCABULARY BURN
posted by Plutor at 4:53 AM on August 28, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by Plutor at 4:53 AM on August 28, 2008 [5 favorites]
(In other news, I just learned that peruse has the opposite connotation that I always assumed. It means "carefully", not "casually".)
posted by Plutor at 4:55 AM on August 28, 2008 [8 favorites]
posted by Plutor at 4:55 AM on August 28, 2008 [8 favorites]
Hehe sorry, I just wanted an excuse to post a Princess Bride quote...and free edumacation for all!
posted by Grither at 4:58 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by Grither at 4:58 AM on August 28, 2008
To answer your question, pjern, the post-production is a rather time consuming affair. You see, they start with an excellent and very intelligible recording, one in which the moderator's voices are clearly audible and discernible, but must then spend hours (if not days) getting Matt to sound like he's about seven feet away from the mic with his head wrapped in a towel.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:13 AM on August 28, 2008 [26 favorites]
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:13 AM on August 28, 2008 [26 favorites]
peruse verb
1 to read through (a book, magazine, etc) carefully.
2 to browse through something casually.
3 to examine or study (eg someone's face) attentively. perusal noun. peruser noun.
Source
(VOCABULARY COUNTER-BURN)
posted by matthewr at 5:15 AM on August 28, 2008 [6 favorites]
1 to read through (a book, magazine, etc) carefully.
2 to browse through something casually.
3 to examine or study (eg someone's face) attentively. perusal noun. peruser noun.
Source
(VOCABULARY COUNTER-BURN)
posted by matthewr at 5:15 AM on August 28, 2008 [6 favorites]
OED says Grither is wrong:
c. To read through or over; (generally) to read. In later use also: to browse, skim. Also occas. intr.
Modern dictionaries and usage guides, perh. influenced by the word's earlier history in English, have sometimes claimed that the only ‘correct’ usage is in reference to reading closely or thoroughly (cf. senses 4a, 4b). However, peruse has been a broad synonym for read since the 16th cent., encompassing both careful and cursory reading; Johnson defined and used it as such. The implication of leisureliness, cursoriness, or haste is therefore not a recent development, although it is usually found in less formal contexts and is less frequent in earlier use (see quot. 1589 for an early example). The specific sense of browsing or skimming emerged relatively recently, generally in ironic or humorous inversion of the formal sense of thoroughness. Cf. SCAN v. for a similar development and range of senses.
posted by vacapinta at 5:15 AM on August 28, 2008 [8 favorites]
c. To read through or over; (generally) to read. In later use also: to browse, skim. Also occas. intr.
Modern dictionaries and usage guides, perh. influenced by the word's earlier history in English, have sometimes claimed that the only ‘correct’ usage is in reference to reading closely or thoroughly (cf. senses 4a, 4b). However, peruse has been a broad synonym for read since the 16th cent., encompassing both careful and cursory reading; Johnson defined and used it as such. The implication of leisureliness, cursoriness, or haste is therefore not a recent development, although it is usually found in less formal contexts and is less frequent in earlier use (see quot. 1589 for an early example). The specific sense of browsing or skimming emerged relatively recently, generally in ironic or humorous inversion of the formal sense of thoroughness. Cf. SCAN v. for a similar development and range of senses.
posted by vacapinta at 5:15 AM on August 28, 2008 [8 favorites]
flapjax,
Matt's part is the audio equivalent of distressed furniture. I think it's supposed to appeal to steampunks.
posted by lukemeister at 5:31 AM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
Matt's part is the audio equivalent of distressed furniture. I think it's supposed to appeal to steampunks.
posted by lukemeister at 5:31 AM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
There's usually somewhere between one and five days between the time we record and the time the podcast goes live. We try to record at a regular day and time, but the fact that we've both got really busy schedules means that sometimes that doesn't even happen. The last podcast was recorded Monday, I assume it will go up sometime this week. It's got a bunch of little parts that all need to be pasted together so I'm sure it will take "longer than usual" but there's no real usual. Once we record it, I'm out of the loop and as susprised as anyone to see it when it goes live.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:32 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:32 AM on August 28, 2008
Both scan and peruse have been diluted by the masses!
posted by that girl at 5:57 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by that girl at 5:57 AM on August 28, 2008
So according to OED and Chambers, the "later use" definition that is now popular among the internet age (also known as the WRONG definition) has now been added to the dictionary. Great to see them bowing to the illiteracy of today's youth. Sigh.
posted by Grither at 5:58 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by Grither at 5:58 AM on August 28, 2008
LOLPRESCRIPTIVISTS
posted by sveskemus at 6:03 AM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by sveskemus at 6:03 AM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
Let's decimate the inflammable bastards!
posted by Rock Steady at 6:10 AM on August 28, 2008 [11 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 6:10 AM on August 28, 2008 [11 favorites]
Great to see them bowing to the illiteracy of today's youth.
Yeah, that was bad.
posted by lukemeister at 6:16 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that was bad.
posted by lukemeister at 6:16 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
HI I'M ON METAFILTER AND I COULD PERUSE A PLATE OF BEANS
posted by burnmp3s at 6:23 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by burnmp3s at 6:23 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that was bad.
posted by lukemeister
I love that the first definition on that site is:
What Michael Jackson told us he was all along.
posted by Grither at 6:47 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by lukemeister
I love that the first definition on that site is:
What Michael Jackson told us he was all along.
posted by Grither at 6:47 AM on August 28, 2008
So according to OED and Chambers, the "later use" definition that is now popular among the internet age (also known as the WRONG definition) has now been added to the dictionary. Great to see them bowing to the illiteracy of today's youth. Sigh.
Yeah, these damn kidstoday in the 16th Century.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:02 AM on August 28, 2008 [5 favorites]
Yeah, these damn kids
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:02 AM on August 28, 2008 [5 favorites]
So according to OED and Chambers, the "later use" definition that is now popular among the internet age (also known as the WRONG definition) has now been added to the dictionary. Great to see them bowing to the illiteracy of today's youth. Sigh.
I take it, then, you use bead to mean 'prayer'?
posted by languagehat at 7:04 AM on August 28, 2008 [4 favorites]
I take it, then, you use bead to mean 'prayer'?
posted by languagehat at 7:04 AM on August 28, 2008 [4 favorites]
Again we are shown that irony is an immutable force of nature - a law like gravity or thermodynamics.
Bad means bad, until it means good. Fine means excellent, until it means barely passable. Peruse means look closely until it means look half-assedly. La la la!
posted by dirtdirt at 7:09 AM on August 28, 2008
Bad means bad, until it means good. Fine means excellent, until it means barely passable. Peruse means look closely until it means look half-assedly. La la la!
posted by dirtdirt at 7:09 AM on August 28, 2008
Just like a bead, I'll take you there!
Just like a bead to me!
posted by Kwine at 7:12 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Just like a bead to me!
posted by Kwine at 7:12 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
I take it, then, you use bead to mean 'prayer'?
posted by languagehat
Look, just cause you've got "language" in your user name doesn't make you some kind of "expert" on the subject.
See, I'll show you that bead is obviously not an alternate word for....woah, wait a second.
Ok, so maybe it does. Whatever, leave Britney ALONE! Er, me....not Britney...
posted by Grither at 7:37 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by languagehat
Look, just cause you've got "language" in your user name doesn't make you some kind of "expert" on the subject.
See, I'll show you that bead is obviously not an alternate word for....woah, wait a second.
Ok, so maybe it does. Whatever, leave Britney ALONE! Er, me....not Britney...
posted by Grither at 7:37 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Peruse means "to read with thoroughness or care." If you peruse a book, you leave no page unturned. This makes sense when you consider the Middle English per use, meaning "to wear out or use up."
From the final and ultimately definitive source.
Suck it, OED.
posted by quin at 7:38 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
From the final and ultimately definitive source.
Suck it, OED.
posted by quin at 7:38 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's all been downhill vocab-wise since the Anglo-Saxon of The Battle of Brunanburh.
posted by Abiezer at 7:40 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by Abiezer at 7:40 AM on August 28, 2008
If there's anything as tedious who are excited about grammar rules they learned in primary school and want to tell you about it all the time it's people who've figured out the first group of people are tedious and, as if they were the first ever to stumble over this utterly common sense discovery, insist on telling you about it all the time.
posted by Wolfdog at 7:57 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Wolfdog at 7:57 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Usually it's a day, but this week has been bad other things constantly popping up. I'm hoping to finally get it done today. Plus I'll use that levelator app so at least it'll sound somewhat even and compressed.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:59 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:59 AM on August 28, 2008
mathowie, you've derailed this vocabulary thread.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:00 AM on August 28, 2008 [6 favorites]
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:00 AM on August 28, 2008 [6 favorites]
I don't see how either definition is a misuse of the word in the original post, but whatever. Flagged as fantastically excellent.
posted by iamkimiam at 8:06 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by iamkimiam at 8:06 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
I always thought Matt recorded his part while bicycling.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 8:10 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 8:10 AM on August 28, 2008
I don't know why you guys are so down on Matt's part of the podcast, since I always picture Jess's vocals being recorded with someone randomly jabbing a microphone at her.
(Lovely voice, but I always have my iPod volume set to Matt's vocal level and...it's a study in contrasts.)
posted by kittyprecious at 8:26 AM on August 28, 2008
(Lovely voice, but I always have my iPod volume set to Matt's vocal level and...it's a study in contrasts.)
posted by kittyprecious at 8:26 AM on August 28, 2008
We're in a post-prescriptivist reality here people! Set your irregardless meter to cromulent!
posted by blue_beetle at 8:30 AM on August 28, 2008 [12 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 8:30 AM on August 28, 2008 [12 favorites]
I'm not a hardcore prescriptivist except when I'm really really cranky and/or undercaffeinated, but it's WHOA, dammit. Not Woah or Waoh or any other damn thing that kids are coming up with these days.
/off my lawn so I can eat my beans etc.
posted by rtha at 8:43 AM on August 28, 2008 [3 favorites]
/off my lawn so I can eat my beans etc.
posted by rtha at 8:43 AM on August 28, 2008 [3 favorites]
I'd like to comment that the word 'cleave' is its own antonym. It means both to split apart and to keep together. My wife taught me that. It's why I cleave to her.
posted by stet at 8:47 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by stet at 8:47 AM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Peru's an interesting country, I think. I'd like to go there someday.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:58 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:58 AM on August 28, 2008
Heh. Based on the podcasts, before I met her, I always thought that Jess had an incredibly aspirant voice. Whereas I sometimes find Matt too calming to listen to…
(Though the reason I don't generally listen to the podcast is because, frankly, I prefer to read things if given the choice. So I can peruse them at my leisure.)
posted by klangklangston at 9:22 AM on August 28, 2008
(Though the reason I don't generally listen to the podcast is because, frankly, I prefer to read things if given the choice. So I can peruse them at my leisure.)
posted by klangklangston at 9:22 AM on August 28, 2008
Leisure actually means "tacky one-piece suit."
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:32 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:32 AM on August 28, 2008
It means both to split apart and to keep together.
and thus we have cleavage.
posted by quonsar at 9:35 AM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
and thus we have cleavage.
posted by quonsar at 9:35 AM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
Hey, put down that cleaver, quonsar.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:44 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:44 AM on August 28, 2008
So "leisure suit" is redundant?
Yes, and I blame the illiterate middle-aged youth of the 1970s lounge scene.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:47 AM on August 28, 2008
Yes, and I blame the illiterate middle-aged youth of the 1970s lounge scene.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:47 AM on August 28, 2008
"tacky one-piece suit."
Actually cortex, they weren't one-piece. The leisure suit (oops, sorry to be redundant) was actually a suit. Jacket and pants, separate.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:53 AM on August 28, 2008
Actually cortex, they weren't one-piece. The leisure suit (oops, sorry to be redundant) was actually a suit. Jacket and pants, separate.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:53 AM on August 28, 2008
It's the tackiness at the seams that makes it a de facto one-piece. Check the OED.
*puts on sunglasses, skateboards into sunset*
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:59 AM on August 28, 2008
*puts on sunglasses, skateboards into sunset*
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:59 AM on August 28, 2008
I always thought that Jess had an incredibly aspirant voice.
You mean you thought she was spitting all over the place?
posted by lukemeister at 10:05 AM on August 28, 2008
You mean you thought she was spitting all over the place?
posted by lukemeister at 10:05 AM on August 28, 2008
*watches cortex skateboard away, sees him hit by speeding '73 Chevy Camaro*
posted by flapjax at midnite at 10:08 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by flapjax at midnite at 10:08 AM on August 28, 2008
If there's anything as tedious who are excited about grammar rules they learned in primary school and want to tell you about it all the time it's people who've figured out the first group of people are tedious and, as if they were the first ever to stumble over this utterly common sense discovery, insist on telling you about it all the time.
Life must be so very tiring for you.
posted by Caduceus at 10:17 AM on August 28, 2008
Life must be so very tiring for you.
posted by Caduceus at 10:17 AM on August 28, 2008
I always thought that Jess had an incredibly aspirant voice.
See now to me that just reads like "voice choking on its own vomit"
I agree though if mathowie decides this web thing doesn't do it for him, he'd make a great psychoanalyst with that voice.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:22 AM on August 28, 2008
See now to me that just reads like "voice choking on its own vomit"
I agree though if mathowie decides this web thing doesn't do it for him, he'd make a great psychoanalyst with that voice.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:22 AM on August 28, 2008
It's all been downhill vocab-wise since the Anglo-Saxon of The Battle of Brunanburh.
Since McCain probably remembers those times, I look forward to when he compares Obama to Æþelræd Unræd.
posted by lukemeister at 10:23 AM on August 28, 2008
Since McCain probably remembers those times, I look forward to when he compares Obama to Æþelræd Unræd.
posted by lukemeister at 10:23 AM on August 28, 2008
I agree though if mathowie decides this web thing doesn't do it for him, he'd make a great psychoanalyst with that voice.
"Talk to me a little bit about, uh, about your mom."
"Well, when I was five, she caught me playing with myself and told me that the Devil would take me to Hell if I kept doing that, which was pretty traumatic in retro—"
"Oh my god, that's so retarded."
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:31 AM on August 28, 2008 [8 favorites]
"Talk to me a little bit about, uh, about your mom."
"Well, when I was five, she caught me playing with myself and told me that the Devil would take me to Hell if I kept doing that, which was pretty traumatic in retro—"
"Oh my god, that's so retarded."
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:31 AM on August 28, 2008 [8 favorites]
Hahahahahahaha.
posted by kittyprecious at 10:34 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by kittyprecious at 10:34 AM on August 28, 2008
cortex, your little role-playing skit there is nice and all, but it can never make up for the loss of respect for not knowing a leisure suit has two pieces.
::shakes head sadly::
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 10:57 AM on August 28, 2008
::shakes head sadly::
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 10:57 AM on August 28, 2008
See now to me that just reads like "voice choking on its own vomit"
jessamyn, You're right. So much for my aspiration to contribute to this thread!
posted by lukemeister at 11:01 AM on August 28, 2008
jessamyn, You're right. So much for my aspiration to contribute to this thread!
posted by lukemeister at 11:01 AM on August 28, 2008
Seriously. I should know better by now than to invoke fashion references in my snark without at least vetting them against wikipedia first. In my defense, though, the graphics in Leisure Suit Larry were pretty bad, and I was gloriously, deleriously not born when the damn things were actually fashionable.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:03 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:03 AM on August 28, 2008
An aspirant (n.) is one who aspires to something.
I hope you all take note of the fact that the period after the n is in italics, in accordance with approved prescriptivist practice.
posted by Mister_A at 11:09 AM on August 28, 2008
I hope you all take note of the fact that the period after the n is in italics, in accordance with approved prescriptivist practice.
posted by Mister_A at 11:09 AM on August 28, 2008
"See now to me that just reads like "voice choking on its own vomit""
No, it's the huffs and puffs from having a microphone too close without a wind screen. Plosive and sibilant. Kind of like the heavy breathing of a late-night caller, but not, you know, actually obscene.
posted by klangklangston at 11:17 AM on August 28, 2008
No, it's the huffs and puffs from having a microphone too close without a wind screen. Plosive and sibilant. Kind of like the heavy breathing of a late-night caller, but not, you know, actually obscene.
posted by klangklangston at 11:17 AM on August 28, 2008
So, what I got to wondering was ...
How do I use the "more inside" page break in a mostly pointless manner?
posted by dhammond at 11:24 AM on August 28, 2008
How do I use the "more inside" page break in a mostly pointless manner?
posted by dhammond at 11:24 AM on August 28, 2008
Cortex, I think you confused the leisure suit with the Parisian night suit.
posted by Bookhouse at 11:28 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by Bookhouse at 11:28 AM on August 28, 2008
like the heavy breathing of a late-night caller, but not, you know, actually obscene
That's a tagline!
posted by lukemeister at 11:29 AM on August 28, 2008
That's a tagline!
posted by lukemeister at 11:29 AM on August 28, 2008
You're probably onto something, Bookhouse. Goddam I loved that show.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:39 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:39 AM on August 28, 2008
I hope you all take note of the fact that the period after the n is in italics, in accordance with approved prescriptivist practice.
Back in my proofreading days, I had an editor seriously tell me that the period in an ital sentence needed to be italic. I thought she was kidding at first, and kind of played along for a minute until I realized she meant it. I tried to explain that periods are little dots, they're as close to zero-dimensional as type gets, and that there's no such thing as an italic period. I couldn't get through to her. I still don't know how she became an editor.
posted by languagehat at 11:40 AM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
Back in my proofreading days, I had an editor seriously tell me that the period in an ital sentence needed to be italic. I thought she was kidding at first, and kind of played along for a minute until I realized she meant it. I tried to explain that periods are little dots, they're as close to zero-dimensional as type gets, and that there's no such thing as an italic period. I couldn't get through to her. I still don't know how she became an editor.
posted by languagehat at 11:40 AM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
I am sure the typesetters really enjoyed working with that editor.
posted by Mister_A at 11:54 AM on August 28, 2008
posted by Mister_A at 11:54 AM on August 28, 2008
period in an ital sentence needed to be italic
This would be a case of distinguishing between an ellipse and an ellipsis, then?
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:57 AM on August 28, 2008
This would be a case of distinguishing between an ellipse and an ellipsis, then?
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:57 AM on August 28, 2008
It's hiding behind this rhombus: .
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:00 PM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:00 PM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
They took it away along with the image tag. Fascists.
posted by languagehat at 12:00 PM on August 28, 2008
posted by languagehat at 12:00 PM on August 28, 2008
Back in my proofreading days, I had an editor seriously tell me that the period in an ital sentence needed to be italic.
my question is, what on earth could she have noticed that would cause her to bring this up? was she staring at a period and wondering why it didn't slant? was there ever an italicized period that she had seen which somehow did?
posted by shmegegge at 12:10 PM on August 28, 2008
my question is, what on earth could she have noticed that would cause her to bring this up? was she staring at a period and wondering why it didn't slant? was there ever an italicized period that she had seen which somehow did?
posted by shmegegge at 12:10 PM on August 28, 2008
honestly that would probably have been the fittest revenge, to put commas at the end of all italicized sentences so that at least it looks like they're leaning.
posted by shmegegge at 12:23 PM on August 28, 2008
posted by shmegegge at 12:23 PM on August 28, 2008
I'd like to comment that the word 'cleave' is its own antonym.
Are you ready for some terminology? Contronym. Antagonym. Auto-antonym. Antilogy. Enantiodrome. JANUS WORD!
posted by Powerful Religious Baby at 12:25 PM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Are you ready for some terminology? Contronym. Antagonym. Auto-antonym. Antilogy. Enantiodrome. JANUS WORD!
posted by Powerful Religious Baby at 12:25 PM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
I thought they are called commas, those italicized periods.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:29 PM on August 28, 2008
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:29 PM on August 28, 2008
. (regular)
. (italicized)
Not that I take a closer look, I do notice a slight difference.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:30 PM on August 28, 2008
. (italicized)
Not that I take a closer look, I do notice a slight difference.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:30 PM on August 28, 2008
Now that...
languagehat, your editor appears to have been correct. I feel your pain.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:33 PM on August 28, 2008
languagehat, your editor appears to have been correct. I feel your pain.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:33 PM on August 28, 2008
Max Miedinger spent close to three months designing the oblique form of the full stop for Helvetica, and you mock it?
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:06 PM on August 28, 2008
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:06 PM on August 28, 2008
Oh man...what did I do??! Sorry for ruining your thread, pjern.
posted by Grither at 1:09 PM on August 28, 2008
posted by Grither at 1:09 PM on August 28, 2008
Not that I take a closer look, I do notice a slight difference.
I don't. Maybe I need to turn my resolution down. Or up. Or something.
Actually, I do, if I turn up my text size four times. What's that make it in Firefox, 20 point?
posted by Caduceus at 1:22 PM on August 28, 2008
I don't. Maybe I need to turn my resolution down. Or up. Or something.
Actually, I do, if I turn up my text size four times. What's that make it in Firefox, 20 point?
posted by Caduceus at 1:22 PM on August 28, 2008
they are different in Internet Explorer for this particular font.
posted by stubby phillips at 1:24 PM on August 28, 2008
posted by stubby phillips at 1:24 PM on August 28, 2008
very different in MS Word with Times New Roman
posted by stubby phillips at 1:26 PM on August 28, 2008
posted by stubby phillips at 1:26 PM on August 28, 2008
Yeah, I wasn't really kidding about the rhombus thing.
Cleartype may be a factor here, too. It's a nice clean little parallelogram in 12-pt Verdana on my LCD.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:28 PM on August 28, 2008
Cleartype may be a factor here, too. It's a nice clean little parallelogram in 12-pt Verdana on my LCD.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:28 PM on August 28, 2008
I'm out of the loop
Cortex is plotting again, huh?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:32 PM on August 28, 2008
Cortex is plotting again, huh?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:32 PM on August 28, 2008
Remember though, people, the 'hat was talking about printed material. The periods are generally dots, unlike what you see onscreen here.
To tell you the truth, I had never noticed that ital periods display differently onscreen then roman ones... A quick look at a printout confirms that the office printer prints little rhombi as well. Thanks for ruining my joke, modern technology!
posted by Mister_A at 1:33 PM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
To tell you the truth, I had never noticed that ital periods display differently onscreen then roman ones... A quick look at a printout confirms that the office printer prints little rhombi as well. Thanks for ruining my joke, modern technology!
posted by Mister_A at 1:33 PM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Think of the cost! This little discovery of ours could result in the reprinting of millions of books.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 1:52 PM on August 28, 2008
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 1:52 PM on August 28, 2008
Actually it looks like serif fonts tend to have round periods, whereas sans serifs tend to have square periods (in print).
posted by Mister_A at 1:57 PM on August 28, 2008
posted by Mister_A at 1:57 PM on August 28, 2008
This little discovery of ours could result in the reprinting of millions of books.
FULL STOP THE PRESSES!
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:00 PM on August 28, 2008 [3 favorites]
FULL STOP THE PRESSES!
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:00 PM on August 28, 2008 [3 favorites]
cortexAdmin: "Seriously. I should know better by now than to invoke fashion references in my snark without at least vetting them against wikipedia first. In my defense, though, the graphics in Leisure Suit Larry were pretty bad, and I was gloriously, deleriously not born when the damn things were actually fashionable."
Man, I wish I could get back the countless hours I spent following Larry around on his adventures.
posted by dg at 2:05 PM on August 28, 2008
Man, I wish I could get back the countless hours I spent following Larry around on his adventures.
posted by dg at 2:05 PM on August 28, 2008
I just Ctrl-T-ed too many times to peruse this (plain template, Gill Sans, 11 px, Firefox 2.0, Aquarius), and yes, the second one is definitely drunk.
posted by maudlin at 2:15 PM on August 28, 2008
posted by maudlin at 2:15 PM on August 28, 2008
my question is, what on earth could she have noticed that would cause her to bring this up?
I think it was marking a text up: the underscore meaning "set ital" didn't extend under the period, and she thought it should.
And yeah, this was actual printed material; there was no internet yet, you damn whippersnappers.
posted by languagehat at 2:41 PM on August 28, 2008
I think it was marking a text up: the underscore meaning "set ital" didn't extend under the period, and she thought it should.
And yeah, this was actual printed material; there was no internet yet, you damn whippersnappers.
posted by languagehat at 2:41 PM on August 28, 2008
So languagehat, what was Gutenberg like, anyway?
posted by Mister_A at 2:45 PM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by Mister_A at 2:45 PM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
Back in my proofreading days, I had an editor seriously tell me that the period in an ital sentence needed to be italic.
For correct typesetting, it should be italicized. For the purposes of typesetting software (InDesign, Quark XPress) or typesetting machines (Linotype, Hell-Agfa) or a trained, traditional graphical artist or typesetter - there's a small but important difference in the way the typesetting works between italicized and normal text.
It's the same exact reason why you wouldn't bold a sentence and leave the period unbolded, or the same reason why you wouldn't set a headline or title font on a sentence and then finish it with a period set in a different font style of the same font.
Proper modern typesetting isn't static, even when you're just using basic tracked fonts instead of kerning, optimization or justification. You don't count in points, pica or certainly not inches or millimeters - you measure typesetting in percentages of the letter unit - the em. The "rules" are informed by what kind of font you're using, what kind of print, how big, how small, what the audience is, etc - and these rules can be bent or totally broken, but you have to know the rules to begin with, and starting with clean copy is one of the first steps towards good, clear, legible and aesthetically pleasing typesetting.
Making sure that every single sentence, detail and structure is uniform in this way helps reduce problems down the road during the layout and typesetting process. This is why graphic designers and typesetters will come back to the copywriter/copyeditor with many miniscule, apparently pointless edits, corrections and changes. A doublespace? Gotta go. Go back and italicize all of those periods in italic sentences, yes please. See how those "orphans" and "widows" cleaned up? Ah, yes, now the justification and kerning flows uniformly throughout the paragraph. See what you did there?
This is also why many typesetters and art directors ARE VERY FOND OF YELLING AT PRODUCTION ARTISTS AND COPYWRITERS WHO DON'T GET THIS CONCEPT THAT THEIR NUMBER ONE JOB IS ATTENTION TO THESE LITTLE POINTLESS DETAILS LIKE UNITALICIZED PERIODS AT THE END OF ITALICIZED SENTENCES, rather than trying to insist on trying to force prose into what usually amounts to a one paragraph blurb about a hideous t-shirt someone is trying to sell someone else.
And this is the reason why I own a real live bullwhip. Just in case I ever start a graphic design venture with actual underlings like proofreaders or copyeditors and I'm the default art director. WHAT IS THAT? WHY ARE YOU ABUSING THAT FAKE ELLIPSIS IN TOTALLY UNNATURAL WAYS!? *CRACK* YOU WOULDN'T TREAT YOUR MOMMA THAT WAY, WOULD YOU? *CRACK* I DON'T CARE IF THE SENTENCE IS UGLY, IT FITS BENEATH THE PICTURE. MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ONE, DAMNIT, THERE'S DEADLINES LOOMING. *CRACK*
posted by loquacious at 3:34 PM on August 28, 2008 [13 favorites]
For correct typesetting, it should be italicized. For the purposes of typesetting software (InDesign, Quark XPress) or typesetting machines (Linotype, Hell-Agfa) or a trained, traditional graphical artist or typesetter - there's a small but important difference in the way the typesetting works between italicized and normal text.
It's the same exact reason why you wouldn't bold a sentence and leave the period unbolded, or the same reason why you wouldn't set a headline or title font on a sentence and then finish it with a period set in a different font style of the same font.
Proper modern typesetting isn't static, even when you're just using basic tracked fonts instead of kerning, optimization or justification. You don't count in points, pica or certainly not inches or millimeters - you measure typesetting in percentages of the letter unit - the em. The "rules" are informed by what kind of font you're using, what kind of print, how big, how small, what the audience is, etc - and these rules can be bent or totally broken, but you have to know the rules to begin with, and starting with clean copy is one of the first steps towards good, clear, legible and aesthetically pleasing typesetting.
Making sure that every single sentence, detail and structure is uniform in this way helps reduce problems down the road during the layout and typesetting process. This is why graphic designers and typesetters will come back to the copywriter/copyeditor with many miniscule, apparently pointless edits, corrections and changes. A doublespace? Gotta go. Go back and italicize all of those periods in italic sentences, yes please. See how those "orphans" and "widows" cleaned up? Ah, yes, now the justification and kerning flows uniformly throughout the paragraph. See what you did there?
This is also why many typesetters and art directors ARE VERY FOND OF YELLING AT PRODUCTION ARTISTS AND COPYWRITERS WHO DON'T GET THIS CONCEPT THAT THEIR NUMBER ONE JOB IS ATTENTION TO THESE LITTLE POINTLESS DETAILS LIKE UNITALICIZED PERIODS AT THE END OF ITALICIZED SENTENCES, rather than trying to insist on trying to force prose into what usually amounts to a one paragraph blurb about a hideous t-shirt someone is trying to sell someone else.
And this is the reason why I own a real live bullwhip. Just in case I ever start a graphic design venture with actual underlings like proofreaders or copyeditors and I'm the default art director. WHAT IS THAT? WHY ARE YOU ABUSING THAT FAKE ELLIPSIS IN TOTALLY UNNATURAL WAYS!? *CRACK* YOU WOULDN'T TREAT YOUR MOMMA THAT WAY, WOULD YOU? *CRACK* I DON'T CARE IF THE SENTENCE IS UGLY, IT FITS BENEATH THE PICTURE. MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ONE, DAMNIT, THERE'S DEADLINES LOOMING. *CRACK*
posted by loquacious at 3:34 PM on August 28, 2008 [13 favorites]
This little discovery of ours could result in the reprinting of millions of books.
Relax. Most reputable printers and publishers already know all the things I outlined in my last comment, and then some - and will practice it as economically as the state of the art allows.
They kind of helped invent and develop these practices. You know, before we had computers and software with fancy formula to autokern text for us. That sort of attention to detail probably has something to do with them becoming reputable printers and publishers in the first place.
posted by loquacious at 3:45 PM on August 28, 2008
Relax. Most reputable printers and publishers already know all the things I outlined in my last comment, and then some - and will practice it as economically as the state of the art allows.
They kind of helped invent and develop these practices. You know, before we had computers and software with fancy formula to autokern text for us. That sort of attention to detail probably has something to do with them becoming reputable printers and publishers in the first place.
posted by loquacious at 3:45 PM on August 28, 2008
When I design my next typeface, the italicized period will be a tiny "OCD" glyph. The word "PEDANT" is harder to fit into a tiny rhomboid.
posted by dirty lies at 4:13 PM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by dirty lies at 4:13 PM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
I'd like to remind you, loquacious, that this thread is about the podcast. Please don't muddy the waters with "facts" about typography and printing.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 4:28 PM on August 28, 2008
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 4:28 PM on August 28, 2008
Jesus, no wonder it takes so long to get the podcast up.
posted by pjern at 4:57 PM on August 28, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by pjern at 4:57 PM on August 28, 2008 [3 favorites]
Damn, loquacious, I have no idea whether you're making all that shit up as you go along or whether it's honest-to-Goudy truth. That's the cross you bear with all your loquacity. But if it's all true: thanks, and you should have been in our department!
posted by languagehat at 5:03 PM on August 28, 2008
posted by languagehat at 5:03 PM on August 28, 2008
/me nervously eyes loquacious' bullwhip.
Man, I knew I shouldn't have slept through my typography classes.
posted by lekvar at 6:39 PM on August 28, 2008
Man, I knew I shouldn't have slept through my typography classes.
posted by lekvar at 6:39 PM on August 28, 2008
When I design my next typeface, the italicized period will be a tiny "OCD" glyph. The word "PEDANT" is harder to fit into a tiny rhomboid.
No small coincidence, but if you look up "OCD" in the OED there's a picture of a typographer nervously lining everything up just so, and if you look up "pedant" you'll probably find a picture of an editor.
But if it's all true: thanks, and you should have been in our department!
I learned just enough typography to be dangerous from my pops before computers and desktop publishing. Mostly I hand-set phototype for logos and headline-like work, but not very much manual bulk copy setting and layout. Before laser printing was cheap and affordable you could order typeset strips for bulk copy work from larger print service shops, assuming you couldn't afford your own phototype setting machine.
I've met a couple of old masters, guys that'll still work with metal type foundary work for bespoke printing, another gentleman who did a fair amount of designing fonts (besides illustration, painting, architecture and drafting), which was and is a black art to do well. He liked to talk about using the golden ratio for calculating white/black space ratios and the design of the font face characteristics.
These guys laugh at our computers, our InDesign and Quark.
/me nervously eyes loquacious' bullwhip.
KERN FASTER! TYPESETTERS USED TO HAVE TO DO THAT BY HAND BY SHAVING METAL OFF OF THE EDGES OF THE BLOCKS OR INSERTING SHIMS! LOOK AT YOU AND YOUR MOUSE AND YOUR COMFY CHAIR AND WIDESCREEN DISPLAY, YOUR AIR CONDITIONED OFFICE AND YOUR DESK FULL OF POP-CULT VINYL TOYS! *CRACK* HIYAAA! FASTER OR I'LL MAKE YOU LAY IT OUT IN COREL WITH THE AUTOKERNING OFF!
posted by loquacious at 7:48 PM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
No small coincidence, but if you look up "OCD" in the OED there's a picture of a typographer nervously lining everything up just so, and if you look up "pedant" you'll probably find a picture of an editor.
But if it's all true: thanks, and you should have been in our department!
I learned just enough typography to be dangerous from my pops before computers and desktop publishing. Mostly I hand-set phototype for logos and headline-like work, but not very much manual bulk copy setting and layout. Before laser printing was cheap and affordable you could order typeset strips for bulk copy work from larger print service shops, assuming you couldn't afford your own phototype setting machine.
I've met a couple of old masters, guys that'll still work with metal type foundary work for bespoke printing, another gentleman who did a fair amount of designing fonts (besides illustration, painting, architecture and drafting), which was and is a black art to do well. He liked to talk about using the golden ratio for calculating white/black space ratios and the design of the font face characteristics.
These guys laugh at our computers, our InDesign and Quark.
/me nervously eyes loquacious' bullwhip.
KERN FASTER! TYPESETTERS USED TO HAVE TO DO THAT BY HAND BY SHAVING METAL OFF OF THE EDGES OF THE BLOCKS OR INSERTING SHIMS! LOOK AT YOU AND YOUR MOUSE AND YOUR COMFY CHAIR AND WIDESCREEN DISPLAY, YOUR AIR CONDITIONED OFFICE AND YOUR DESK FULL OF POP-CULT VINYL TOYS! *CRACK* HIYAAA! FASTER OR I'LL MAKE YOU LAY IT OUT IN COREL WITH THE AUTOKERNING OFF!
posted by loquacious at 7:48 PM on August 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
I'LL MAKE YOU LAY IT OUT IN COREL WITH THE AUTOKERNING OFF!
*shudders*
I'd rather do it by hand the traditional way than do that.
As far as I know (though, I also didn't pay quite as much attention as I probably ought to have in my typography class), loquacious is telling the truth. For what that's worth.
posted by Caduceus at 8:41 PM on August 28, 2008
*shudders*
I'd rather do it by hand the traditional way than do that.
As far as I know (though, I also didn't pay quite as much attention as I probably ought to have in my typography class), loquacious is telling the truth. For what that's worth.
posted by Caduceus at 8:41 PM on August 28, 2008
But back to 'peruse' and 'scan'. Are there any other words that have had their ironic use become standardized, causing the word's meaning to evolve into what was once its opposite?
posted by painquale at 9:50 PM on August 28, 2008
posted by painquale at 9:50 PM on August 28, 2008
But back to 'peruse' and 'scan'. Are there any other words that have had their ironic use become standardized, causing the word's meaning to evolve into what was once its opposite?
Yeah. There's whole lists of them, which is what Powerful Religious Baby was referring to above.*
1 2 3 4 5
*I did not hotlink my period. I am a bad typesetter.
posted by Caduceus at 10:09 PM on August 28, 2008
Yeah. There's whole lists of them, which is what Powerful Religious Baby was referring to above.*
1 2 3 4 5
*I did not hotlink my period. I am a bad typesetter.
posted by Caduceus at 10:09 PM on August 28, 2008
I did not hotlink my period. I am a bad typesetter.
If it is not the whole sentence that you are enclosing in formatting, I feel that it's better not to include terminal punctuation in the bounds of the formatting.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:49 PM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
If it is not the whole sentence that you are enclosing in formatting, I feel that it's better not to include terminal punctuation in the bounds of the formatting.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:49 PM on August 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Antagonyms aren't quite the same, though. What I thought was neat about 'peruse' is that it had a specific meaning, but was used in irony so often that the ironic meaning became the standard meaning. This isn't true of, say, 'cleave'.
posted by painquale at 1:05 AM on August 29, 2008
posted by painquale at 1:05 AM on August 29, 2008
If it is not the whole sentence that you are enclosing in formatting, I feel that it's better not to include terminal punctuation in the bounds of the formatting.
Which is the same way you wouldn't italicize the period in a sentence if it had only one or a few italicized words, even if one of them was the last word before the period.
posted by loquacious at 2:43 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Which is the same way you wouldn't italicize the period in a sentence if it had only one or a few italicized words, even if one of them was the last word before the period.
posted by loquacious at 2:43 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Mister_A wrote: ital periods
You obviously know nothing about traditional Rastafari attitudes to menstruation.
posted by jack_mo at 4:31 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
You obviously know nothing about traditional Rastafari attitudes to menstruation.
posted by jack_mo at 4:31 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
loq: right.
I have zero typesetting background, but I am prone to bong-worthy overanalysis of this stuff, so I feel sort of like close to you and stuff right now.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:58 AM on August 29, 2008
I have zero typesetting background, but I am prone to bong-worthy overanalysis of this stuff, so I feel sort of like close to you and stuff right now.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:58 AM on August 29, 2008
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I do not think that word means what you think it means.
pe·ruse /pəˈruz/
–verb (used with object), -rused, -rus·ing.
1. to read through with thoroughness or care: to peruse a report.
2. to read.
3. to survey or examine in detail.
posted by Grither at 4:35 AM on August 28, 2008