vegan nazi zealots omg

October 1, 2008 10:58 AM

... Or maybe it's because you're being a dick and not answering the OP's question? Let's see, my post was deleted, so I will repost in a slightly less inflammatory but still not helpful way. Really?
posted by booknerd to etiquette/policy at 10:58 AM (211 comments total)

Huh?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:05 AM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Actually the reposting was more inflammatory, in my opinion. That said, you're the only one who said "nazi"... takes a village and all that. I also dropped that guy a note after he accused me of being vegan/vegetarian. I like meat. I also like keeping AskMe free of fightiness. The OP in that case is asking for a frnd, so its' really off-topic to start telling the OP to start telling their friend how to eat.

Someone else asked, decently I thought, exactly why the OPs friend needed to eat vegan. I did it once, on doctor recommendation, when my cholesterol was high. The secret? Hummus.
posted by jessamyn at 11:06 AM on October 1, 2008

Yeah, really. If the question is based on an underlying falsehood, then why isn't it fair game to correct that as a route to dealing with the problem, rather than play along with the fairy tale? zentrification is absolutely right - there is no medical condition that requires someone to be a vegan. This person would be much better off getting competent medical advice (I'm betting she is seeing some quack homeopath, or perhaps misunderstanding her doctor's instructions) than upending her diet.
posted by Dasein at 11:07 AM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm trying pretty hard, but I can't figure out what's going on here.
posted by SpacemanStix at 11:07 AM on October 1, 2008

Looks like somebody has been eating too much red meat. Rowr!
posted by yhbc at 11:07 AM on October 1, 2008

For the record, the twice-removed comment was about the lack of necessity for eating vegan and some snarky crap about skinny vegan kids, along with some links to research about vegetarian/non-vegetarian mortality studies.
posted by jessamyn at 11:08 AM on October 1, 2008

But I think I'm okay with that.
posted by SpacemanStix at 11:08 AM on October 1, 2008

Hold on, lemme grab some meat-corn, cause this is gonna be good!
posted by Grither at 11:09 AM on October 1, 2008 [11 favorites]

But I think I'm okay with that.

About my own comment, not jessamyn's.

Okay, bye now.
posted by SpacemanStix at 11:09 AM on October 1, 2008

If the question is based on an underlying falsehood, then why isn't it fair game to correct that as a route to dealing with the problem

Because the question is "my friend's doctor said this, what is a good way for them to do this thing that the doctor said?" As I said, someone asked, nicely, why exactly the doc said "eat vegan" and that's about as far as it's reasonable to go without knowing more about what is going on.
posted by jessamyn at 11:10 AM on October 1, 2008

You know what's even better than a flameout? An incoherent, inchoate, inflammatory flameout.
posted by GuyZero at 11:13 AM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

You just wanted to say "inchoate".
posted by cortex at 11:15 AM on October 1, 2008 [7 favorites]

the doc said "eat vegan"

To be fair, it was Dr. Hannibal Lecter who prescribed the diet...
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:16 AM on October 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

yeah, what of it?

I forgot to mention that this is a bad callout and making it makes the OP a bad person and they should feel bad.
posted by GuyZero at 11:17 AM on October 1, 2008

I forgot to mention that this is a bad callout and making it makes the OP a bad person and they should feel bad.

Don't you mean it's an insipid callout, and making it makes the OP an iniquitous person and they should feel inconsolable?
posted by burnmp3s at 11:24 AM on October 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

Know what's bad?

Bacon.
posted by iconomy at 11:26 AM on October 1, 2008

Can I have a cheeseburger? Wait, wait - I'm doing it wrong....
posted by grateful at 11:26 AM on October 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Know what's bad?

Bacon.

BLASPHEMY!
posted by rtha at 11:30 AM on October 1, 2008

Geez, what an easy pitch. Getting miffed at that question is like spitting in the face of the umpire when you strike out in tee ball.

or whatever...
posted by cowbellemoo at 11:32 AM on October 1, 2008

Bacon is good.

Talking endlessly about bacon, making jokes about bacon, blathering on about the latest bacon-flavored product, and otherwise hackmemeing about? Bad.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:32 AM on October 1, 2008 [10 favorites]

I once ate a whole big thing of artificial bacon bits.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:35 AM on October 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Mentioning it is definitely low-hanging fruit. People are very passionate about bacon. Bacon is the new...um whatever it was that everyone was talking about before everyone was talking about bacon. I can't be arsed to remember. Maybe it was the color black, or pirates, or zombies or something.

I hate bacon.
posted by iconomy at 11:36 AM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I heart zombie bacon pancake donut monkey robot pirates!!!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:40 AM on October 1, 2008 [13 favorites]

I've been a vegetarian for 24 years, and veganism still strikes me as madness,a nd vegans seems mad to me. On top of that, while I have been able to maintain my diet without difficulty, vegans seem often to manage thair vaganism for a year or two at most, and then, bam, right back to meat.

I often think the impulse to become vegan is the same impulse that causes everyone who is an infufferable prig to latch on something that will give their priggishness form, and, were they not attempting one of the hardest diets ever attempted by man, and lording it above everyone else, they would instead be prattling on about how cars are evil and bicyclists are excellent (all the while ignoring stop signs and red lights and generally making my life more hazardous as a pedestrian) or getting in a snit about atheism and sharply reprimanding every single person of faith in every single online conversation online ever for being a caveman who still worships and invisible superhero in the sky. It's like, it's not enough that I am a vegetarian, don't drive a car, and I am an atheist. There's always got to be someone who just has to be an asshole about it.

Also, for some vegans, especially young ones, the impulse to become vegan seems to be similar to the impulse that causes other eating disorders. It's less about ethics, or health, than it is about control.

And you know what? I'm probably wrong about all this. I mean, not completely, because my feelings about veganism and bike riders and atheists are rooted in actual experiences I have had with people who espouse these values. But wrong in general. I would guess most vegans are just fine, and most bike riders are perfectly civil, and most atheists are perfectly happy to let well enough alone. But I have had a few bad experiences, and so it colors my perceptions.

So you know what I do?

I stay the fuck out of AskMe threads that sets off my prejudices.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:45 AM on October 1, 2008 [46 favorites]

Don't you mean it's an insipid callout, and making it makes the OP an iniquitous person and they should feel inconsolable?

uh, yeah, I guess... although I don't really believe that this need to turn into an eye-for-an-eye kind of situation.
posted by GuyZero at 11:45 AM on October 1, 2008

The OP in that case is asking for a frnd, so its' really off-topic to start telling the OP to start telling their friend how to eat.

Fuck 'em if they don't want to pay their $5.
posted by electroboy at 11:45 AM on October 1, 2008

This callout seriously lacks meat.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:46 AM on October 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

What about fakin bacon? Tastes nothing like the real thing but still delicious in my book. Preferable even?

I wish I was bacon just so iconomy would have feelings for me.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 11:46 AM on October 1, 2008

while I have been able to maintain my diet without difficulty, vegans seem often to manage thair vaganism for a year or two at most, and then, bam, right back to meat.

Unless you're a Jain or something. 10 million people seem to manage it OK. Heck, some of them don't even eat root vegetables because digging those up is too violent.
posted by GuyZero at 11:48 AM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

This is clearly based on a HORRIBLE misunderstanding on the OP's part. The doctor didn't recommend that her friend "switch to a vegan diet," he suggested that he switch to a "diet of vegans."

They're rich in lean protein and B vitamins, but you may have to take an iron supplement.
posted by dersins at 11:49 AM on October 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Did you reach the part where I said I'm probably wrong about all this?
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:49 AM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I heart zombie bacon pancake donut monkey robot pirates!!!

We lover you right back, IRFH.
posted by rtha at 11:50 AM on October 1, 2008

I just learned about Jains & root vegetables last week and wanted to show off how smart I am. Sorry, were you saying something?
posted by GuyZero at 11:51 AM on October 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

"there is no medical condition that requires someone to be a vegan"

I'm allergic to animal products.* So, there. Put that in your hat.


*For all you know this could be true.
posted by oddman at 11:51 AM on October 1, 2008

i didn't have any bacon this morning, so i fried up some thinly sliced spam.
posted by lester at 11:54 AM on October 1, 2008

Jains are pretty interesting. I think they're crazy, though.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:56 AM on October 1, 2008

I did it once, on doctor recommendation, when my cholesterol was high. The secret? Hummus.

I'm curious about that, if you don't sharing. Was it hummus and bread 24/7 or using it as substitute in other dishes or something else?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:56 AM on October 1, 2008

I heart zombie bacon....

Great. Now I'm imagining shambling corpses redolent of crispy porcine scrapple.

Bring some killer tomatoes, and boy, now we're talking. Monster sandwiches tonight!

(and mayonnaise, always a bit of mayonnaise)
posted by bonehead at 12:00 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Was it hummus and bread 24/7 or using it as substitute in other dishes or something else?

Hummus as a dip! Veggies, crackers, bread. Hummus makes anything delicious.
posted by triggerfinger at 12:05 PM on October 1, 2008

I stay the fuck out of AskMe threads that sets off my prejudices.

Except for this one.
posted by electroboy at 12:06 PM on October 1, 2008

I'm glad this is here. I flagged it both times. Guess what? I eat fish. Know what else? I also disagree with the notion of a vegan diet being medically necessary. But dammit, that was not the question! It's probably not the OP's place to pass on advice from the internet disagreeing with a doctor's advice.
posted by piedmont at 12:09 PM on October 1, 2008

This is not an AskMe thread.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:12 PM on October 1, 2008

Except for this one.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this appears to be a MeTa thread.
posted by cortex at 12:13 PM on October 1, 2008

Wouldn't they call themselves 'Wegans' if they were really nazis?
posted by wfrgms at 12:14 PM on October 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

Fuck 'em if they don't want to pay their $5.

Yeah, but, the "friend" in question isn't the one asking the question. The asker is. They want to learn more about how to help their friend. This isn't the same as asking "Hey, my friend wants to know if Dustin Hoffman was really in Star Wars." This is more like asking for advice a birthday present, on how to help/support a friend, and so on. (At least, as near as I can tell from the question in AskMe.)
posted by skynxnex at 12:22 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

"I heart zombie bacon pancake donut monkey robot pirates!!!"

Ninja.
posted by majick at 12:24 PM on October 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

The word "meat-corn" just turned me vegan.
posted by DU at 12:26 PM on October 1, 2008

Jains are pretty interesting. I think they're crazy, though.

Jainist!

I was vegan for about three years. I was lured back by the creamy goodness of yogurt, and then BAM! I was eating seafood like it was water. I still don't eat red meat unless it is bacon. I primarily did it as a personal health experiment. I didn't wear patches extolling veganity on my jacket/backpack, nor have any stickers on my bike. I was a nice, quiet vegan who pooped at least twice a day, which is one thing I miss.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:26 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

This is not an AskMe thread.

Don't you get all Magritte with me, mister.
posted by electroboy at 12:29 PM on October 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

Dad lets me bullseye womp rats on the driveway. But not on Monday. Definitely not on Monday.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:29 PM on October 1, 2008

"(and mayonnaise, always a bit of mayonnaise)"
And lettuce, always a leaf of lettuce.It's bLt, you know
posted by Cranberry at 12:30 PM on October 1, 2008

I did it once, on doctor recommendation, when my cholesterol was high. The secret? Hummus.

A freind of mine is stuck with that, and yes, lots of Hummus. And soy chip things. He's doing quite well, I think I'd be contemplating death by now.
posted by Artw at 12:31 PM on October 1, 2008

I was vegan for a year in college. I did it to try and get laid. It didn't work.

My lesson? Don't be a vegan.
posted by xmutex at 12:32 PM on October 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

YUM, hummous. This thread is making me hungry.
posted by goo at 12:37 PM on October 1, 2008

You know who else was a vegan nazi zealot? That's right.
posted by Sailormom at 12:38 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Yeah, but, the "friend" in question isn't the one asking the question. The asker is. They want to learn more about how to help their friend. This isn't the same as asking

What better gift to give to a friend than to tell them they're being a douche?

Here's how I imagine this all played out.

Doctor: Your cholesterol is high. You're going to need to cut down on saturated fats.
Friend: Saturated fats?
Doctor: Mostly animal products like cheese, full fat dairy and fatty cuts of meat.
Friend: I see.

{time passes}

OP: Hey, so what did the doctor say.
Friend: OMG, he said I have to be a vegan now.
posted by electroboy at 12:40 PM on October 1, 2008 [8 favorites]

I'm a little surprised that this many people care about what some stranger eats or why.

Except I do care when people talk about "OMG, should I eat this pizza I left out overnight?!" because for some reason that's really interesting.

Maybe I'm surprised at the intensity of caring.
posted by KAS at 12:47 PM on October 1, 2008

It might have happened as electroboy said. I think that, for some reason, the societies that many of us live in is more tolerant of dietary restrictions for potentially ideological reasons (such as veganism) than for medical reasons. The ideological reasons are seen to be absolutes that cannot be violated, yet the medical reasons are somehow fungible ("c'mon, one slice of chocolate cake might kill you!").

In this climate, if a physician told me I had to massively cut back on saturated fat, it might be easier just to start claiming I was a vegan.
posted by grouse at 12:51 PM on October 1, 2008

anyone ever have hummus with bacon?
posted by lester at 12:53 PM on October 1, 2008

Also, I don't like this callout. Not because the idea is so bad (I didn't see the original comment so it is hard to judge), but because the misuse of the word "post" instead of "comment" made me scratch my head for a while.
posted by grouse at 12:53 PM on October 1, 2008

My doctor told me to become a vegan. When I couldn't pay my bill, he told me to become a freegan.
posted by box at 12:55 PM on October 1, 2008

You know, it’s possible the doctor in question was a chiropractor and he recommended the vegan diet to rid the body of toxins*. That happened to a neighbor of mine and, unfortunately, he ate that bullshit right up like it was a big plate of kale. He now looks like an emaciated shell of his former self, but at least he’s toxin-free. Or so he claims.

Either way, it’s his life and, meat lover that I am, if he asked me for ideas for vegan meals I wouldn’t go telling him his doctor was a quack (even if I felt that way) but would probably give him a pretty decent lasagna recipe and suggest he eat more hummus. I also didn’t say anything when he claimed almonds could cure cancer but the Medical Establishment was keeping it under wraps because they were in the pocket of Big Pharmaceutical. Sometimes it’s best just to shut up. Especially in AskMe.

*which apparently are really, really bad but nobody can quite tell me why or what exactly they are.
posted by bondcliff at 1:10 PM on October 1, 2008

In the Denny's on Guam, where Spam is more popular than bacon, you can get a Spam Grand Slam. Much better than a Flan Grand Slam, but probably less spectacular than a Lamb Grand Slam. For Vegans, they have Finadine' Sauce.
posted by Bernt Pancreas at 1:14 PM on October 1, 2008

What better gift to give to a friend than to tell them they're being a douche?

I don't think that word means what you think it means. How is deciding to be a vegan = being a douche? Sure, there are annoying vegans out there, as there are annoying vegetarians (got the merit badge for putting up with that for 10 years), and carnivores. I'm seeing a lot more douchey comments from the carneys here than from the vegans. Geez - who the hell cares, guys? Really?
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:19 PM on October 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

I'm temporarily vegan - I'm on the 6 week "Eat to Live" diet. Not only am I vegan, I'm also allowed only a half-cup of whole grains a day, no sugar, and very little oil. It's supposed jump start weight losss, and praise be to the gods, it's over on Monday. I've lost 10 pounds, but if I see another cup of lentil soup or carrot stick I can't be responsible for what happens.

Next Tuesday I'm eating a whole cow. Live.
posted by Evangeline at 1:20 PM on October 1, 2008 [7 favorites]

Spam Cupcakes. We have actually made these, and they are excellent. For the full effect, use real mashed potatoes with whole milk and real butter. You can feel your arteries constrict.
posted by yhbc at 1:21 PM on October 1, 2008

Whoops - Spam Cupcakes.
posted by yhbc at 1:22 PM on October 1, 2008

I've been vegan for twenty years or more now; frankly the witterings of you lesser beings are neither here nor there to one of my elevated moral accomplishments. I get personal thank-you letters from livestock and in just five more years I ascend to Eternal Oneness with a chickpea.
posted by Abiezer at 1:24 PM on October 1, 2008 [16 favorites]

Metafilter: There's always got to be someone who just has to be an asshole about it.

Sorry.
posted by disclaimer at 1:29 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I only eat vegans.
posted by Mister_A at 1:30 PM on October 1, 2008

How is deciding to be a vegan = being a douche?

It isn't. Why would you say something like that? That's a terrible thing to say. You're terrible.

But it is douchey to insist on radical changes based on sketchy medical advice, possibly misinterpreted by the OP's "friend".

Geez - who the hell cares, guys? Really?

You do. You care so much it hurts.
posted by electroboy at 1:30 PM on October 1, 2008

I think that, for some reason, the societies that many of us live in is more tolerant of dietary restrictions for potentially ideological reasons (such as veganism) than for medical reasons.

I dunno, I've seen quite a bit of knee jerk hostility from omnivores when someone says they don't eat meat. Usually followed by a bunch of questions about what they do and don't eat and hey fish have a brain and do you eat that and what about farming that kills stuff when they plow would you eat a bug lobsters are like bugs and the hey hey and the glaven.
posted by electroboy at 1:34 PM on October 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

My doctor told me being a dick takes a week off your life every time you do it.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 1:36 PM on October 1, 2008

You do. You care so much it hurts.

Sometimes it's hard to be so darn caring.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:36 PM on October 1, 2008

and in just five more years I ascend to Eternal Oneness with a chickpea

hummus among us become us
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:39 PM on October 1, 2008

Look, my post might have been inflammatory, but that's not the issue at hand. The poster asked a question and I answered it. To quote:

"I would like to offer her support, a gift of some kind and maybe some information."

I offered some peer reviewed, substantiated research in a major medical journal, the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, that substaniates the claim that her friend should eat fish, as people who include fish in their diet have a substantially lower mortality rate than their vegan and vegetarian equivelents

This information is supportive and a gift, it's letting her friend know that dietary choices she makes may have a negative impact upon her overall health.

The problem here, a common thread in most discussions of vegetarian and vegan lifestyle, is that people are making claims and not supporting it with any evidence.

As jessamyn said
"Because the question is "my friend's doctor said this, what is a good way for them to do this thing that the doctor said?" As I said, someone asked, nicely, why exactly the doc said "eat vegan" and that's about as far as it's reasonable to go without knowing more about what is going on."

Her doctor told her that she needed to eat a vegan diet, well this is either plain incorrect medical advice or the information is being relayed in properly. I discussed this with two of my friends this morning who are internists and they scoffed at the idea, no medical condition requires vegan eating. I do have reason to go beyond that, I talked with two medical professionals who told me in no uncertain terms that her doctor was wrong.

Dersins is just plain wrong
"They're rich in lean protein and B vitamins, but you may have to take an iron supplement."
Vegans don't get enough protein, period, if you disagree with me simply look at pictures of the 2005 vegan bodybuilding champion
Here are some case studies on b12 deficiency in vegans and their children and some researchers have reasonto suspect chronic b vitamin deficiencies in vegetarian populations. and oh here's an interesting one showing elevated homocysteine (generally believed to be b vitamin related) levels in taiwanese vegetarians.

The point here I'm trying to make is that sure, you can get everything you need from a vegan diet but when you look at populations who eat that way they tend to show nutritional deficiencies. You can probably get everything you need from eating a variety of bugs in your environment, but that doesn't mean it's great way to eat.

As for oddman
"I'm allergic to animal products"
Right, I'm sure you've had a full spectrum IgG, IgA, ALCAT food allergy testing assay and it showed that you are allergic to all animal products, and every type of fish you can buy at your local market.

To put it plain and simple, the research substantiates my position. Here is another journal article analyzing the plasma omega-3 levels in vegetarians and vegans vs meat eats. The results showed "The proportions of plasma EPA and DHA were lower in the vegetarians and in the vegans than in the meat-eaters"

I am not in the mood to do a thorough overview of the literature of why low levels of omega-3's are bad for you, but here are, a few interesting, studies on the topic that i have found. This is just the tip of the iceberg, hop on pubmed and search for 'omega-3', 'fish oil' and any disease and you'll probably find a paper showing they make the condition better.
posted by zentrification at 1:40 PM on October 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

Evangeline: "I'm temporarily vegan - I'm on the 6 week "Eat to Live" diet. "

Stop! You've lost too much! You're wasting away!
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:41 PM on October 1, 2008

Relax, Francis.
posted by electroboy at 1:50 PM on October 1, 2008

Stop! You've lost too much! You're wasting away!

I do have good bones, don't I? I should have been a model.
posted by Evangeline at 1:51 PM on October 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Hummus vs. Bacon
posted by brevator at 1:57 PM on October 1, 2008

The 2005 Vegan Bodybuilding champion?

OK, lads! We've seen it all now. Shut down the internet, shut it down.
posted by Jofus at 1:59 PM on October 1, 2008

Last night, I wrapped meat in hummus. Then I fried it in a pan. Then I wrapped it in eggplant skin and fried it again.

Tonight, I'm gonna do it again...with soy and bacon. TAKE THAT!

And the Vegan bodybuilders? Awkward.
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 2:01 PM on October 1, 2008

Say that to his strangely-coloured face, Jofus!
posted by Abiezer at 2:03 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Relax, Francis.
posted by electroboy

I believe it's "Lighten up, Francis."

A quick google search seems to supports my position.
posted by Grither at 2:03 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

(and I say that with much love)

-Francis
posted by Grither at 2:04 PM on October 1, 2008

Look, my post might have been inflammatory, but that's not the issue at hand.
Check the top of the page. Pretty sure it is.

The poster asked a question and I answered it.
No. You got to play doctor on the internet and explain why it was a bad question. That is not answering it. No sir, not at all.

...in properly...
really?

Relax.
Have a steak and a beer and laugh at the silly vegans if you must. But most of all, relax. Their dietary choices don't affect you, at all, and unless they switch to cannibalism... never will.
posted by piedmont at 2:08 PM on October 1, 2008

Vegans don't get enough protein, period, if you disagree with me simply look at pictures of the 2005 vegan bodybuilding champion

What's wrong with him? He looks fine to me...in fact he looks a hell of a lot better than the steroid behemoths that are the usual bodybuilder.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 2:11 PM on October 1, 2008

You just wanted to say "inchoate"

Totally understandable if true. I know I try to find an excuse to work "inchoate" into a conversation at least once a day. It's just that great a word.
posted by madamjujujive at 2:12 PM on October 1, 2008

Look, my post might have been inflammatory, but that's not the issue at hand.

Yes it is. Next time, don't be so fucking inflammatory. Better yet, when you show up in AskMe, answer the question.
posted by languagehat at 2:17 PM on October 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Eh, sorry for the ambiguity of the call-out. "Nazi" was thrown into the heading as a joke, but I do think it's pretty lame that most posts asking about veganism bring out the anti-vegetarianism brigade, while numerous posts from former vegetarians asking how to go about eating meat don't bring out tons of vegetarians decrying omnivore diets. If you don't know anything about eating vegan and just want to tell someone they're wrong, don't click on the post? I thought it was a clear violation and flagging it the first time didn't seem to take.
posted by booknerd at 2:20 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

anyone ever have hummus with bacon?

Yeah, man, it's great! In fact, my favorite thing to dip in hummus is slices of chicken that I've sauteed in hot sauce with a bit of oregano, a bit of salt and pepper, and a bit of olive oil. So, yeah, meat 'n' hummus is a great combo. Also, if you ever want a real treat, try a thick, rare hamburger with hummus and roasted red peppers. Fucking stellar.
posted by Greg Nog at 2:21 PM on October 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Falafel
posted by oddman at 2:22 PM on October 1, 2008

Totally understandable if true. I know I try to find an excuse to work "inchoate" into a conversation at least once a day.

"You got yr choate in my penut buttr"
"U got yur peanut butr inchoate"
posted by Greg Nog at 2:23 PM on October 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

"Right, I'm sure you've had a full spectrum IgG, IgA, ALCAT food allergy testing assay and it showed that you are allergic to all animal products, and every type of fish you can buy at your local market."

Yes, all of that.

It's a burden that I bear. Do you think I want to be vegan? HELL NO! But I have to be; I'll die if I'm not. Do you have to be a sarcastic ass about it?

Do you wave your hand in front of blind people's faces? HUH?

You're going to make me cry.
posted by oddman at 2:26 PM on October 1, 2008

I believe it's "Lighten up, Francis."

Gah! I knew as soon as I hit post!
posted by electroboy at 2:32 PM on October 1, 2008

I'm allergic to animal products.* So, there. Put that in your hat.


*For all you know this could be true.

Actually, I know it isn't true. There's no such thing as an allergy to all animal products. And if there were, you'd be dead in infancy.
posted by Justinian at 2:32 PM on October 1, 2008

Sometimes it's hard to be so darn caring.

It'll be ok, The Light Fantastic. We'll go see Nights in Rodanthe, just me and you.
posted by electroboy at 2:33 PM on October 1, 2008

Do you have an inflammation of the AskMe? IANYD, but if I were, I'd probably recommend taking a heavy dose of MetaTalkSil^TM. MetaTalkSil^TM: Whether you're down in the dumps or simply full of shit, let The Filter get you fit. Now available in extra strength flaming suppositories.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:33 PM on October 1, 2008

I just made 100% vegetarian dulce de leche brownies, served with vanilla ice cream. They are dulce de licious!
posted by goo at 2:34 PM on October 1, 2008

Vegans are the galactic civilization most prone to proselytizing their peculiar beliefs to other star systems. In fact, they've been charged with an egregious violation of the Prime Directive regarding their interactions with a fledgling interplanetary civilization in one of the spiral arms of Andromeda. The intergalactic governing body in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud is watching the case with interest.

(Damn, that name annoys me. If we discover intelligent life on a planet of the Vega star system, what are we going to call them?)
posted by Crabby Appleton at 2:40 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

That's awesome, goo. You'd be surprised how often I get vegetarian brownies and there's a big hunk of pork in there.
posted by electroboy at 2:41 PM on October 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

there is no medical condition that requires someone to be a vegan.

My mom has suffered from severe fibromyalgia and for a while ate a vegan diet, which helped her deal with a lot of her symptoms. Don't ask me what the specific chemical chain of events is there, but I do know that it helped her a ton and I also know that it was recommended by her doctor. She only stayed on it for six months, but even that switched helped immensely.

Also: it's no bacon off my nose if anyone else wants to eat a diet that differs from mine. I really marvel at the backlash from veganism - on both sides! There's the vegans who tell omnivores that we're all evil beings perpetuating the suffering of the universe and we're all going to burn in hell blah blah blah and then there are the omnivores who think that anyone who is living on a diet of tofu and quinoa is insane and should seek psychiatric counseling and some bacon.

Neither side makes any sense. Eat the bacon, or don't. Just make sure to save a piece for me.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:51 PM on October 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

brevator: Hummus vs. Bacon

Most of the injustices in the world are, at root, caused by the fact that most of us have a deep and irrational urge to make distinctions and disjunctions and to draw oppositions where none need enter the issue. Often we can remedy these injustices by realizing that world is a coexistence of all things, and thus these binary polarities do not need to be absolute.

Hummus AND bacon. Not halal. Still good.
posted by koeselitz at 3:16 PM on October 1, 2008

Hummus and bacon is really just a fashion victim's pease pudding, whcih thankfully is still lush without the meaty addition.
posted by Abiezer at 3:21 PM on October 1, 2008

Omigod: hackmemeing. That so totally needs to be in the OED.
posted by mediareport at 3:26 PM on October 1, 2008

Vegans and vegetarians get a lot more shit for their diets than the other way around. Most vegans and vegetarians don't even tell people about their choices because of the way people react. If you think that it isn't the healthiest diet in the world, well, it's not your decision to make for the other person. Live your life eating what you want and let others live their life eating what they want.

Also, I have a friend who has gout, and his doctor says that he needs to eat a vegan diet.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 3:39 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I also dropped that guy a note after he accused me of being vegan/vegetarian. I like meat.

"Accused"? Really? Jesus. "You are hereby charged with first-degree vegetarianism. The punishment is deportation." Good thing you established your bona fides at the end there though or so many people would have totally thought less of you.
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:42 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

turgid dahlia, you may be misunderstanding just how often we get email from people who are bothered by a deletion and so elect to declare that the deletion was itself driven by an ideological conflict. Jessamyn isn't trying to get in good with the meat eaters.

"You deleted X because and/or ergo you're a totally biased anti-Xist" gets really old.
posted by cortex at 3:51 PM on October 1, 2008

Two things:

1). Last time we had one of these threads, I said mean things about Tofutti. But I've grown since then and can say that the mango-vanilla soycream from Trader Joe's is downright delicious.

2). If you're frying bacon in a pan, you are doing it wrong. Learning to cook bacon in the oven has moved me up to a whole new level, bacon-wise. My hot bacon-spinach salads are to be reckoned with.
posted by Bookhouse at 3:52 PM on October 1, 2008

If you're frying bacon in a pan, you are doing it wrong.

Fucking bacon snobs.
posted by electroboy at 4:00 PM on October 1, 2008

Naw, it's not a snob thing. It's a not having to scrub a pan thing, and not having to spend time thing. It's a lazy thing.
posted by Bookhouse at 4:06 PM on October 1, 2008

Stop talking about bacon or I'll get judgy!
posted by turgid dahlia at 4:11 PM on October 1, 2008

It's easier to clean a skillet than an oven, in my experience. Doesn't the grease splatter, or are you keeping the heat low?
posted by Tehanu at 4:28 PM on October 1, 2008

You'd be surprised how often I get vegetarian brownies and there's a big hunk of pork in there

Try these anyway, they're awesome.

Vegans and vegetarians get a lot more shit for their diets than the other way around

This is totally untrue. My meatatarian bf (seriously, carnivorous if not for wheat, rice, corn, potatoes, peas and fruit) gets far more flack than I do as a vegetarian. My dietary decisions are never derided as childish, for eg.
posted by goo at 4:39 PM on October 1, 2008

Doesn't the grease splatter, or are you keeping the heat low?

I use about 400 degrees and don't get a lot of splatter, and line the cookie sheet with tin foil.
posted by Bookhouse at 4:41 PM on October 1, 2008

And don't forget that if you don't want all the grease from fried bacon, you can always boil it...
posted by Navelgazer at 4:45 PM on October 1, 2008

I use about 400 degrees and don't get a lot of splatter, and line the cookie sheet with tin foil.

That's what I do when I make bacon candy.
posted by rtha at 4:48 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

if you don't want all the grease from fried bacon, you can always boil it...

Or you can buy bacon that's not 90% fat [NOT (necessarily) AMERICAN-BACONIST]. The George Foreman grill is also pretty good for bacon, so I've been told.
posted by goo at 4:52 PM on October 1, 2008

I make bacon in the microwave. I think the results are better than in the pan, and it's certainly a hell of a lot easier. Surround bacon with paper towels, press a button and in 90 seconds you have warm, tasty bacon. What could be easier?
posted by grouse at 4:57 PM on October 1, 2008

What could be easier?

Bacon that cooks itself on command.
posted by Tehanu at 4:59 PM on October 1, 2008 [6 favorites]

Also a Bacon Fairy, now that I think about it.
posted by Tehanu at 5:03 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Next time, don't be so fucking inflammatory.

Heh.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:09 PM on October 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

That's what I do when I make bacon candy.

Would you like to adopt a 37-year old son? I'm well behaved and don't take up much space.
posted by jonmc at 5:15 PM on October 1, 2008

Bacon and Eggs
A day's work for a chicken.
A lifetime commitment for a pig.
posted by netbros at 5:21 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm seeing a lot more douchey comments from the carneys here than from the vegans.

Hey leave the circus folk out of this!
posted by nola at 6:11 PM on October 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

If you ever come to San Francisco, jonmc, I'll make you bacon candy. Likewise, if/when I'm in New York, and have access to an oven, bacon candy for you!
posted by rtha at 6:11 PM on October 1, 2008

Little pink pig make a mess up in the mud
Little pink pig likes to snort
Little pink pig likes to play out in the mud
with other piggy pigs of his sort

Little pink pig has a curly little tail
Little pink pig has a snout
Little pink pig has pretty cloven hooves
that he wears when he waddles about

He likes corn he likes mush
anything you take him
but he don't like no ham and eggs or
pork and beans or bacon

Little pink pig is a little porky pal
Little pink pig is a swine
Little pink pig is a hog and a boar
Piggy wiggy all of the time.
posted by Sailormom at 6:44 PM on October 1, 2008

It's a not having to scrub a pan thing, and not having to spend time thing. It's a lazy thing.

Lazy ass bacon snobs.
posted by electroboy at 6:52 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I heart zombie bacon pancake donut monkey robot pirates!!!

Hee....spellcheck rejects 'donut', and suggests 'donuts' instead.
posted by iconomy at 6:59 PM on October 1, 2008

The Light Fantastic writes "What's wrong with him? He looks fine to me...in fact he looks a hell of a lot better than the steroid behemoths that are the usual bodybuilder."

No kidding. Most of those guys look like they could easily break me in half and then use the pieces as free weights. And no one has ever described me as svelte either.
posted by Mitheral at 7:20 PM on October 1, 2008

Vegans don't get enough protein, period, if you disagree with me simply look at pictures of the 2005 vegan bodybuilding champion

This might be the most bizarre piece of evidence cited to support a claim I've ever seen.
posted by painquale at 7:42 PM on October 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

I was a vegetarian for over a year (why, yes, it DID get me laid) though I never tried the Vegan thing. There were times we had dairy-free meals, as well -- just depends on what kind of effort you feel like putting into it, as far as studying up on diet & nutrition. Eggs and cheese, however, were the order of the day, followed closely by legumes, and then soy. I really think I was healthier for it, at the time. No one ever once gave me a hard time about it, and I tried to not diss meat-eaters, since I had been one. It was a pleasant, productive learning experience, but one day, well.. the girl and I had broken up, and there was this baby coho salmon... and within about 6 weeks I was totally "BRING ON THE BACON, YEEHAW!"

I do still try to keep the red meat down to a couple nights a week, and I only wish I could afford fish, so that leaves us with lots of chicken, and the occasional vegetarian casserole, eggplant parmesan, "peasant's meals" (brown rice, topped with black beans & stuff). It's a little harder when you've got three kids that all have eating proclivities that don't overlap, or I'd probably be more veggie than I am.

Oh, and where do i get those brownies with the pork in them, because I will travel to that place.
posted by Devils Rancher at 8:01 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hee....spellcheck rejects 'donut', and suggests 'donuts' instead.

There is no singular when donuts are involved.
posted by Devils Rancher at 8:02 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Vegans don't get enough protein, period...

You are incorrect. Thanks for playing!
posted by turgid dahlia at 8:22 PM on October 1, 2008

ok first, piedmont:
I never stated or ment to imply it was bad question, i suggested she give her friend the information that a diet including fish is probably more healthy than one without, and then reinforced my argument by citing a peer reviewed journal paper.

the light fantastic:
the vegan bodybuilder looks fantastic, and i prefer his look to that of the drug abusing professional bodybuilders we see today at the top of the IBFF.

the issue is, muscularity and how much you carry is something bodybuilders strive for, look at this guy he can barely carry any muscle mass, this gymnast, who trains for a sport not size, has more development than this guy

this is because of protein consumption, the vegan's diet doesn't give him enough protein to maintain any more muscle mass

languagehat:
totally, it's rough telling people their diet leads to a higher mortality than other diets, i'll try to be 'nicer' next time.

but you will notice i managed to stir lively debate on the subject.

oddman
i'm inclined not to believe you, it's highly unlikely you have a condition that results in this (my instinct says you either have a chronic inflammatory disease or died at birth from failure to thrive)

booknerd:
i don't care that you called me a nazi, but i'm not the anti-vegetarianism brigade. I could care less why you think what you eat is good, if you need to believe there is an intergalactic war going on inside vegetables and eating them is the only way to stop it, that's fucking great if it gets you to stuff vegetables in your face.

no one has made a decent challenge to the position i put forward, questioned the methods of the studies i cited, or attacked my conclusions. where is the intellectual debate here ?
posted by zentrification at 9:05 PM on October 1, 2008

...this is because of protein consumption, the vegan's diet doesn't give him enough protein to maintain any more muscle mass...

Muscle mass for WHAT?
posted by turgid dahlia at 9:13 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

zentrification writes "the issue is, muscularity and how much you carry is something bodybuilders strive for, look at this guy he can barely carry any muscle mass, this gymnast, who trains for a sport not size, has more development than this guy

"this is because of protein consumption, the vegan's diet doesn't give him enough protein to maintain any more muscle mass"

I don't think the pictures are proving much one way or the other. Mostly because I'd think the talent pool for competitive vegan body building has got to be pretty small. I wouldn't be surprised if it was an order of magnitude, or two even, smaller than gymnastics.
posted by Mitheral at 9:33 PM on October 1, 2008

where is the intellectual debate here ?

AskMe is a site for answering questions as they are asked, not intellectual debate.

Or perhaps you're simply too intelligent to follow directions?
posted by GuyZero at 9:40 PM on October 1, 2008

but you will notice i managed to stir lively debate on the subject.

Stirring a lively debate is explicitly not what Ask Metafilter is for. The next time you feel compelled to comment in an AskMe thread for the sake of debate-stirring, please refrain. If it's a debate you feel desperately needs to be had, start a Metatalk thread, but I'd caution careful consideration and restraint even on that front.
posted by cortex at 9:48 PM on October 1, 2008

If it's a debate you feel desperately needs to be had, start a Metatalk thread

Or better yet, don't. 99% of MetaTalk posts should not have been made. For you, it rises to an even 100%.
posted by GuyZero at 9:53 PM on October 1, 2008

You know, I only skimmed this thread, but I suddenly found myself craving Spam, and sure enough, a quick search turned up a Spam comment.

but I have no spam, so now I am sad.
posted by davejay at 10:10 PM on October 1, 2008

if you need to believe there is an intergalactic war going on inside vegetables and eating them is the only way to stop it, that's fucking great if it gets you to stuff vegetables in your face.

The vegetables would prefer that you remain quiet on the intergalactic war subject. They've been building a broccoli-bomb and would prefer not to have to drop it on your ass.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 10:32 PM on October 1, 2008

Yoder's Canned Bacon
posted by bardic at 10:41 PM on October 1, 2008

I don't think self-righteousness has anything to do with diet choice. There are a hell of a lot of self-righteous vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores. I think self-righteousness just has more to do with being a dick and dickishly defending your diet whatever it may be.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 10:51 PM on October 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

And since nobody asked me, my problem with vegans is their preachiness. Kind of like most (certainly not all) Christians. An adult can obviously eat whatever she chooses, but ya know, that's your choice. And mine is too eat meat (granted, I live in a country where the concept of veganism, let along vegetarianism, is just incomprehensible to people).

So I've got a co-worker who's vegan, and I really, honestly try to make nice small talk with her, but for fuck's sake she's the most judgemental, high-and-mighty moralizing biddy ever. Honestly, she's maybe 26 years old, and if I close my eyes she sounds just like my 88 year old great grandmother right before she died. She isn't just going vegan for personal or health reasons, no sir, she's doing it to save the entire fucking planet.

So I try to avoid going to cultural or social things with her, since at some point people will want to eat, and thus begins an hour-long journey through the streets of a foreign country that doesn't understand veganism (literally, most Koreans just can't grok it, since the country used to be so impoverished the idea of refusing meat is just insane to them) in order to fulfill her whims and desires. (Her whims and desires are pretty damn culturally insensitive, if you think about it.)

I'm going to snap soon, I know it. "Oh, that noodle dish doesn't have any meat but I'll bet that broth has fish stock in it." "I'LL FUCKING BET YOU SHOULD BRING ALONG A FISTFUL OF FUCKING PLAIN WHITE RICE WHEREVER YOU GO IN KOREA BECAUSE I'M SICK AND TIRED OF TRYING TO FIND VEGAN DISHES FOR YOU IN A COUNTRY THAT REALLY DOESN'T EVEN BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT." Yeah, it'll go down something like that.

Lo and behold, her second week here she was hospitalized for malnourishment. She's fine now, thankfully, but Jesus is there anything worse than a preachy vegan who doesn't even know how to feed herself?

Oh, and other people I don't like include: 1) French Canadians and 2) People who are into jam bands.
posted by bardic at 10:56 PM on October 1, 2008 [7 favorites]

bardic, just get your coworker to move in to a buddhist temple. problem solved.
posted by needled at 11:40 PM on October 1, 2008

I've thought of that, but from what I've seen Korean vegetarians are a far cry from vegans. For example, a Korean vegetarian might still eat fish, and it's really hard to find soups that don't have some sort of a meat or fish product as their base.

So yeah, I'm just gonna seethe about it. And have a big ol' meat-infested dinner tonight.
posted by bardic at 12:07 AM on October 2, 2008

bardic, I feel your pain. It's inconvenient to eat out even with my Muslim friends who are not particularly strict (all they ask is no pork). Going out with the Hindu guys from my program is orders of magnitude harder. They are surviving by eating at only Indian and Buddhist restaurants. When my friend comes to visit in December, I'm gonna have a hard time feeding him.

I can't imagine how they would survive in a smaller city than Seoul.
posted by no1hatchling at 1:40 AM on October 2, 2008

no one has made a decent challenge to the position i put forward, questioned the methods of the studies i cited, or attacked my conclusions. where is the intellectual debate here ?

I read your (incredibly lengthy) treatise on the evils of veganism and I would like to say that you are oh so smart and way better than anyone else here ever. Thank you so much for calling your friends in med school and asking them for their expert opinion on nutrition. It was edifying to be informed by one so much more learned than me.

Thank you...and god bless you sir!
posted by The Light Fantastic at 2:02 AM on October 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

It's a doddle being a vegan in China. Buck up Korea, you piss-poor former vassal of the mighty Tang.
That should give us something else for a pointless argument!
posted by Abiezer at 2:31 AM on October 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

And of course, we get all that extra protein from the melamine added to all the food.
posted by Abiezer at 2:35 AM on October 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

We just need to hear about being vegan in Japan and we'll have the complete matched set of historical grudge matches!
posted by needled at 4:30 AM on October 2, 2008

Veganism in Korea. That's an amusing concept.

No 삼겹살 = No thanks.
posted by smorange at 4:59 AM on October 2, 2008

Yeah, clearly the OP was a little confused about the ideals of veganism. I certainly know vegans that appreciate recognition of the fact that there's a difference between "eating vegan" for dietary reasons and "being vegan" for ethical ones. The magic question here is: How would, say wearing leather or using condoms with casein or eating sugar processed with bone char adversely affect one's health in such a selective way to merit a doctor's advice.

I'm the bicycle prig. (But I'm always also super aware of pedestrian safety and pedestrian rights. I drive a handful of times a year. Jus' sayin'.) So many people here are so damn self-righteous about not being self-righteous. Isn't the benefit of online communities, and the reason why we discuss things here instead of say, with our closest co-workers, friends and crazy relatives, so we can blow off a little steam? I feel like online communities suffer just as much when people are trying too hard to be civil and polite about their opinions as when there are trolls who just pull stuff out of their butts. I didn't see the curtailed post but methinks AskMe would probably survive just fine and the OP would continue on just okee dokey as well if it was left to be.

I'm glad I saw the call out and the related post, tho. Got me some good book suggestions. In my experience, there are some fine, single veggie ladies out there, so if that didn't get ya laid, maybe you were doing it wrong.
posted by Skwirl at 5:00 AM on October 2, 2008

I feel like online communities suffer just as much when people are trying too hard to be civil and polite about their opinions as when there are trolls who just pull stuff out of their butts.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard all week, and I've been listening to Sarah Palin interviews.
posted by languagehat at 5:45 AM on October 2, 2008 [7 favorites]

lh, not sure whether that's funny or you're lying your ass off because it's impossible, hee hee.

Vegans don't bother me and I've picked up a few tips over the years for eating better, which is always good.

Asshole vegans, that's another story...

a cabdriver story!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:13 AM on October 2, 2008

That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard all week, and I've been listening to Sarah Palin interviews.

That is...impressive, to say the least. Frankly, I'm shocked you've survived a week of listening to Palin interviews. Five minutes of listening to one and I'm ready to give myself a lobotomy.
posted by rand at 6:14 AM on October 2, 2008

That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard all week, and I've been listening to Sarah Palin interviews.

This whole kerfluffle was worth reading just to get that quote, which I can't wait to unleash on someone. Preferably my father-in-law, who for some reason has purchased a case of McCain-Palin t-shirts and keeps trying to pawn them off on us.
posted by TedW at 6:22 AM on October 2, 2008

no one has made a decent challenge to the position i put forward, questioned the methods of the studies i cited, or attacked my conclusions. where is the intellectual debate here ?

Personally, I believe that the importance of courtesy and respect for the individual trumps having an intellectual debate.

Perhaps if others felt this way, there would be less of a need for Metatalk ragewars.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:04 AM on October 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

To paraphrase a wise man, you go to ragewars with the brain you have, not the brain you want.
posted by electroboy at 7:14 AM on October 2, 2008

no one has made a decent challenge to the position i put forward, questioned the methods of the studies i cited, or attacked my conclusions.

Personally, I got to Vegans don't get enough protein, period, if you disagree with me simply look at pictures of the 2005 vegan bodybuilding champion, saw the picture ... and rolled my eyes and moved on. It's ridiculous to say that guy doesn't have enough muscle mass. If you're saying he doesn't have as much mass as a bodybuilder who eats meat, well fine, but it's a huge leap from there to saying "Vegans don't get enough protein, period". There's just no logical argument there to contend with. Humans have no need to be huge bodybuilders.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:19 AM on October 2, 2008

i like jam bands.

sorry.
posted by stubby phillips at 7:21 AM on October 2, 2008

"the issue is, muscularity and how much you carry is something bodybuilders strive for, look at this guy he can barely carry any muscle mass, this gymnast, who trains for a sport not size, has more development than this guy

this is because of protein consumption, the vegan's diet doesn't give him enough protein to maintain any more muscle mass

no one has made a decent challenge to the position i put forward, questioned the methods of the studies i cited, or attacked my conclusions. where is the intellectual debate here ?


First of all, you're using two arbitrary pictures to prove a point. Of course the gymnast's arms are going to look more developed in that picture, they're contracted and supporting his body weight, and lets not forget the extra blood that's sure to be pumping through those biceps and triceps. That's the pump man. The bodybuilder isn't even in a back double biceps pose, and even if he was you cannot compare a full body picture to a picture from the mid-back and up. Let's see a picture of the gymnast's entire body before 'guessing' which one has the most muscle mass.

Do you realize that they make vegan protein supplements? They do, and they're complete so don't tell me a vegan's diet doesn't give him enough protein to maintain muscle mass. Protein consumption isn't the only variable at work here.
posted by trueluk at 7:34 AM on October 2, 2008

Mr. Kyoto and I got married a couple of weeks ago. Had about 20 cousins from Germany show up and my mom told me later they went through 14 pounds of bacon over the course of a weekend! It was bacon-fueled mayhem! (Plus some of them discovered tequilla during this period.) I'm not posting here to add to the "vegan / non-vegan" thing. I'm posting here to add to the "bacon rocks" thing.
posted by Wylie Kyoto at 8:02 AM on October 2, 2008

never stated or ment to imply it was bad question,

OP: What can I give my friend who's changing her diet?
You: Your friend is wrong, or incapable of listening to her doctor! Here's some crap from journals I sort of understand, journals! I know people training to be doctors! Based on a few sentences I remember from online, they said your friend was wrong! Journals!

You're right, that really was an answer, I guess I'm too dim-witted to get what you meant.



On a lighter note, after all this bacon talk I had to get some fakin bakon for my veggie burger last night. It pales in comparison, but it does at least compare.
posted by piedmont at 8:43 AM on October 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

look at this guy he can barely carry any muscle mass, this gymnast, who trains for a sport not size, has more development than this guy
this is because of protein consumption, the vegan's diet doesn't give him enough protein to maintain any more muscle mass

So wait, your argument is actually that veganism makes it impossible to look like a repulsive, freak of nature, steroid-and-HGH-abusing professional bodybuilder?

Are you a PETA recruiter, cause you've totally convinced me. Where can I sign up to be a vegan?
posted by dersins at 9:37 AM on October 2, 2008

But wait: was Dustin Hoffman really in Star Wars?
posted by trip and a half at 10:35 AM on October 2, 2008

1. Nobody gets enough protein. Everybody gets enough fat though, you bacon loving @#$%s.

2. Vegan protein is pretty poor quality protein. Who knows, eat enough meals and it might work out for you.

3. "Personally, I believe that the importance of courtesy and respect for the individual trumps having an intellectual debate." Whoever said this is clearly a idiot, a doomed idiot. Courtesy and respect do not advance civilization. That would be rule of law and... wait for it... intellectual debate.

4. Bacon is just disgusting. Sure it tastes good. I'm sure that bacon flavored crack would be delish. But seriously. Bacon? Is there ever a point where you think your conscience might trump your appetite?

5. If you don't like muscles then you need to join another species. I suggest applying for membership in homo potatous. I hear its easy to get in.
posted by ewkpates at 10:38 AM on October 2, 2008

I have a really high fever right now so my perception of what's funny may really be off, but "Relax, Francis" has had me giggling for the past 5 minutes or so. Yeah, 5 minutes.

I'd love to have

FRANCIS
SAYS
RELAX

on a t-shirt.
posted by iconomy at 10:40 AM on October 2, 2008

I have a really high fever right now so my perception of what's funny may really be off, but "Relax, Francis" has had me giggling for the past 5 minutes or so. Yeah, 5 minutes.

It's just sad. As sad as the person correcting him admitting that he had to look it up to make sure.

That's a fact, Jack.
posted by Pax at 10:49 AM on October 2, 2008

Wait a minute. A vegetarian zombie?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:57 AM on October 2, 2008

Has this whole joke thread not been done before?

A vegetarian zombie?

GRAINS!

PLANTAIN!

archeological remains heh
posted by GuyZero at 11:03 AM on October 2, 2008

Hummus vs. Bacon
posted by brevator at 4:57 PM on October 1

This was the answer that was going through Sarah Palin's head when Katie Couric asked her to name another Supreme Court decision apart from Roe v Wade.

Thank you, I'll be here all week. Try the tahini.
posted by ob at 11:52 AM on October 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm actually solar powered.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:01 PM on October 2, 2008

My issue with the whole "my doctor said I have to eat vegan" statement is that I want to know exactly what condition a person has that they HAVE to eat vegan? Like, how is that biochemically possible? I just want some scientific reasoning/logic/evidence, that's all.
posted by NikitaNikita at 12:04 PM on October 2, 2008

Cholesterol, see above.
posted by Artw at 12:14 PM on October 2, 2008

I'm actually solar powered.

DU would be interested to know more about that.
posted by TedW at 12:29 PM on October 2, 2008

I, too, have opinions!
posted by everichon at 12:35 PM on October 2, 2008

3. "Personally, I believe that the importance of courtesy and respect for the individual trumps having an intellectual debate." Whoever said this is clearly a idiot, a doomed idiot. Courtesy and respect do not advance civilization.

what
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:35 PM on October 2, 2008

I hear that trolls are high in protein and fiber!
posted by The Light Fantastic at 2:05 PM on October 2, 2008

Here's an example of a question that is completely retarded but that people managed to answer in a civil, useful manner. Take a tip, vegan-haters. Or veganism-allegedly-prescribed-by-doctors-haters.
posted by GuyZero at 3:24 PM on October 2, 2008

What are toxins? Well, they are a concern of people who like to refer to one's body as your organism, which I found quite amusing when I discovered it recently.
posted by Listener at 3:33 PM on October 2, 2008

No, everyone just realizes the benefits antibiotics have outweigh the risks.

Why? Because we have tons of epidemiological evidence that they're effective at curing certain infections and tolerate relatively well in the population at large.

The same can't be said for the vegan diet, we haven't been running randomized clinical trials on it, at best we have correlative studies.

The problem is your can't criticize a vegans diet without being labeled a vegan hater, even when you're just saying something simple like people who eat fish live longer, perhaps you should advise your friend to eat fish
posted by zentrification at 3:35 PM on October 2, 2008

I know a place where they have lots of mackerel. Maybe you can go there.
posted by GuyZero at 3:40 PM on October 2, 2008

> It's a not having to scrub a pan thing, and not having to spend time thing. It's a lazy thing.

Scrub a pan after frying bacon? No, you pour off the grease (yes, to use for cooking, not for the garbage) and then you cover the pan and fry something in it in the next couple of days.
posted by Listener at 3:49 PM on October 2, 2008

The problem is your can't criticize a vegans diet without being labeled a vegan hater

I've heard that theory before, about veganism and any number of other topics. In practice, what you can and can't get away with criticizing seems to depend more on (a) the temperament of the individual being criticized, (b) the context in which the criticism is being delivered, and, usually most importantly by far, (c) the manner in which the criticism is delivered.

Adopting, for example, a defensive attitude a priori (such as the assumption that criticism is unwelcome because the folks hearing it are unreasonable zealots) is a great way to blow (c). Barging into a conversation to drop an unsolicited Tough Love tangent is a good way to bollocks up (b).

There are times when tone-perfect, contextually appropriate criticism will be received badly because of someone who is themselves failing at (a), but that's very, very often not the whole story. And in this case, it wasn't pretty much any of the story.
posted by cortex at 4:06 PM on October 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Is it really appropriate to use AskMe to carry on an argument?
posted by macrone at 6:36 PM on October 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

No, no it's not.
posted by jessamyn at 7:07 PM on October 2, 2008

I wanted to ask vegan people why I someone interested in their health wouldn't eat fish when it seems to be healthier for you to eat fish.

But look this goes straight back to my point about being unable to criticize vegans.

If I posted this question about smoking, we would have a really interesting debate, but there's no evidence to support a vegan diet being superior to say vegetarianism with some fish so people shut down conversation on it, and accuse you of being a hater.
posted by zentrification at 7:18 PM on October 2, 2008

I'd love to have

FRANCIS
SAYS
RELAX

on a t-shirt.

Must credit electroboy!
posted by electroboy at 7:44 PM on October 2, 2008

The problem is your can't criticize a vegans diet without being labeled a vegan hater, even when you're just saying something simple like people who eat fish live longer, perhaps you should advise your friend to eat fish

The study you link to doesn't support your claim at all.

Adjusted all cause mortality ratio (meat eaters = 1, lower is better), 95% CI:
Fish eaters: [.77,.82.,96]
Vegetarians: [.74,.84,.96]
posted by suncoursing at 7:49 PM on October 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

I suspect my smoking will get me before my failure to eat fish.
posted by Abiezer at 7:57 PM on October 2, 2008

Actually, it wasn't Francis that said Relax. It was Sergeant Big Toe.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:57 PM on October 2, 2008

The problem is your can't criticize a vegans diet without being labeled a vegan hater,

No, the problem is you couldn't answer the question asked, and wanted to vent about your dislike of a vegan diet. Which had nothing to do with the request made at the time.
posted by rodgerd at 8:26 PM on October 2, 2008

suncoursing:

Look at this again

The mortality rate for fish eaters is .82
The mortality rate for vegetarians is .84
The mortality rate for vegans 1.00

Mortality rate is a measure of the number of deaths (in general, or due to a specific cause) in some population, scaled to the size of that population, per unit time.

The confidence interval for fish eaters is [.77 - .96]
The confidence interval for vegetarians is [.74 - .96]
The confidence interval for vegans is [.7 - 1.44]

The study I linked to supports my position because the average mortality rate for fish eaters is lower than vegans and vegetarians.

The confidence interval for the vegetarian group has a lower bound than the fish eaters, but that does not allow you to conclude they have a lower overall mortality rate.

I am happy to debate the study methods and results with anyone, but simply tossing the mean and confidence interval together in increasing order adds nothing to the discussion.
posted by zentrification at 9:41 PM on October 2, 2008

rodgerd:

I haven't been venting about my dislikes of the vegan diet, I'm simply stating adding fish to your diet results in a healthier diet than one without fish.

It has everything to do with the request made at the time, let me quote the question again.

"A friend/co-worker/manager was just informed that for dietary reasons to avoid being medicated that she would need to change her diet to being a Vegan. I would like to offer her support, a gift of some kind and maybe some information."

I offered her information, which is exactly what she asked for. Had she tacked on something to the question like "as long as it supports eating vegan", then my response would have been not addressing the question.

But she didn't, she made a request for information and I provided it with her, and everyone hopped on the defense of veganism instead of addressing the facts about the issue.
posted by zentrification at 9:44 PM on October 2, 2008

Jesus zentrification! Did a fucking vegan run over your dog or something? Give it a freaking rest!
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:28 PM on October 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

I haven't been venting about my dislikes of the vegan diet, I'm simply stating adding fish to your diet results in a healthier diet than one without fish.

What if the vegan in question also happens to be allergic to seafood?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:55 AM on October 3, 2008

The study I linked to supports my position because the average mortality rate for fish eaters is lower than vegans and vegetarians.

What it actually shows is that there's no statistically significant difference between the two groups. It's obvious, without even doing a G-test (or a chi-square, if you're old school), that there's no meaningful difference between the samples. The standard deviation is two and a half times larger than the difference in means, and the distributions overlap completely.
posted by suncoursing at 7:58 AM on October 3, 2008

At this point I am no longer sure who is trolling whom.
posted by GuyZero at 10:11 AM on October 3, 2008

Clue: Trolls eat billy-goats.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:39 AM on October 3, 2008

What's the mortality rate for billy-goat-based diets?
posted by GuyZero at 10:57 AM on October 3, 2008

Billy Goats are rich in Omega-3 fatty acids, but are often contaminated with heavy metals such as mercury due to their tendency of ingesting tires, batteries, cans and construction machinery. Due to this concentration of contaminants, it's recommended that you consume no more than one meal of billy-goat per month, and that you avoid troll entirely.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:11 AM on October 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

100% eventually, same as in town.
posted by goo at 11:12 AM on October 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

The problem is that you can't have a discussion of bridge-toll economics without being accused of being a troll by gruff anti-tax billy zealots.
posted by cortex at 11:31 AM on October 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

I know people on this here site sometimes scoff at links to Onion articles, but I don't care, because... a goat!

I've been waiting for a reason to share that for three years. Someone mentioned goats. That's good enough.
posted by Evangeline at 11:38 AM on October 3, 2008

So, what you're saying is that we got got zentrification's goat?

He tried to get my goat, but lucky for me my kids beat him to it.

get it - kids! har har
posted by GuyZero at 11:49 AM on October 3, 2008

I, too, have opinions!

No, you don't!

I have opinions. You have delusions!
posted by krinklyfig at 5:40 PM on October 3, 2008

Oh, I'm way down here where nobody bothers to look!

Once upon a time there was this tiny little Polish restaurant on Milwaukee Avenue in Chicago called Home Bakery. Two eggs with pancakes and bacon cost about five bucks. And they cooked the bacon in the deep fryer.

Two eggs, two big fluffy pancakes with plenty of butter, coffee, and a handful of DEEP-FRIED BACON for five bucks! And if you tipped with folding money, you got treated like royalty!

I can't believe I outlived that place. I cried tears of pure lard when they closed.
posted by mountain_william at 1:23 AM on October 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

grapefruitmoon

IANAChemist, but I've had fibromyalgia a long time. Someone gave me a copy of an "arthritis diet", and I was desperate enough to try anything at the time. You just ate fish, rice and vegetables for a while, which means you live on fried rice for a month, and then start adding back in foods one at a time to see how you reacted. The premise was that you had a food allergy. I don't think that had anything to do with it as it turned out. The only thing that got me was red meat, beef and pork. (I think pork is a lot worse than beef.) Several years later, I read someplace, I think it was Discover magazine, that the grease in red meat contains fatty acids that are a precursor to prostaglandins. Prostaglandins allegedly cause any pain you are in to be magnified by the nerves. Aspirin, for instance (along with most pain relievers), is a prostaglandin inhibitor. They also have a function in healing, hence the persistent story that taking pain pills will impede healing. (I'm not going to address that, as I don't have any idea how much pain relief it would take to impede healing; I'm just mentioning that that story seems related. I have no information, but you can Google it if you have an interest in the question.)

I have basically not eaten red meat in 30 years, and couldn't walk or get around if I did. It seems dosage-related. About once a year, I will eat a steak, and usually the pain gets worse in a few hours and takes 3 days to a week to burn it off. The disease has good days and bad days, and once in a while I can almost get away with it; it just depends. When I get to the stage I can't live without beef another minute, I eat a combo Italian beef and sausage, on the theory that everything in it has been cooked to death and then sits on a steam table, so most of the fat has been cooked pretty much out of it. I usually have better luck with that than I do with a steak. I can eat chicken, turkey, and seafood with no problem. (You have no idea how sick you can get in 30 years of chicken and turkey.)

All I know about this is empirical data, and what I've pieced together over the years from various sources,so I can't claim to be an expert.

Since you did ask about the chemistry, I figured I'd throw in what I do know about it. I wish I could quote you some sources, but I've only found hints over the last 3 decades so I don't have much to offer in the way of hard data.

However, I can vouch for your mother's experience. It wasn't placebo effect, she really did feel better. From what I have read, it should actually work on any kind of chronic pain, like back pain, so if if you have any kind of chronic pain it might be worth a shot. I don't think you'd have to stick with fish, rice, and veggies. If you just knock off red meat, that experiment should tell you what you need to know. I have been recommending this for years, but nobody wants to give up red meat long enough to find out. If it's going to work for you, you should know in a month. If it doesn't, you can give up the experiment with a clear conscience.

Sorry for the length; it's the only time I've ever heard of anyone with fibromyalgia doing this experiment.
posted by unrepentanthippie at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I don't say this as either an endorsement or a refutation of what you said overall, but:

"It wasn't placebo effect, she really did feel better."

The placebo effect IS that you really feel better. That's why it's called the placebo effect, not the placebo ineffect. Placebo effect doesn't mean "doesn't really make you better, just makes you think you're better".
posted by Bugbread at 2:43 AM on October 5, 2008