Policy clarification January 6, 2009 2:56 PM   Subscribe

Please elaborate as to why an informative, multi-link post on a distinct topic, without editorializing or inflammatory language merited deletion, while a one-sided, inflammatory, single-link Youtube post is considered best of the web. Why does the former need to be "added to one of the open threads" but not the latter?
posted by Krrrlson to Etiquette/Policy at 2:56 PM (259 comments total) 1 user marked this as a favorite

Inflammatory how?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:58 PM on January 6, 2009 [2 favorites]


Because we're up to our nuts in I/P threads lately and trying to keep it from going over the damn top. I'm far from in love with that youtube post but, maddening though this may be, we let it stand and it was there first.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:01 PM on January 6, 2009


we let it stand

Why?
posted by SeizeTheDay at 3:02 PM on January 6, 2009


Do you really want policy clarification, or are you just angry? We had decided earlier itn the week that the I/P threads were getting out of hand and we were going to try to see if we could limit "update on the conflict!" posts of at all possible since those threads are pretty active. This was the policy we loosely applied to the earlier post. The second post wasn't flagged too much and seemed to be a different sort of post, not a "here's an update" I didn't like it much either, to tell you the truth but you've been here long enough to know that

- we do the best we can with the guidelines we work from but nothing is going to be absolutely like "here is the policy we applied in this situation, here is why it airtightly explains our decisions" math, as much as I might wish it, we're human, the site is fluid and that's what we work from
- trotting out the "because this stays it has to be the 'best of the web' and I think this sucks so WTF" is tired at best.

If you'd like to have a discussion, that's totally fine, but your "I'm an angry angry angry angry" dude routine doesn't help make this place any better.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:02 PM on January 6, 2009 [2 favorites]


Ah, so it's a matter of who gets to shit on the front page first. Thank you for the clarification.
posted by Krrrlson at 3:02 PM on January 6, 2009


YEAH WELL THE PALESTINIANS WERE THERE FIRST...

sorry, wrong thread.
posted by GuyZero at 3:03 PM on January 6, 2009 [12 favorites]


You're welcome to cut off your hand if it will make you feel better.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:05 PM on January 6, 2009 [22 favorites]


You're welcome to cut off your hand if it will make you feel better.

Ouch! That doesn't feel better at all!
posted by RussHy at 3:06 PM on January 6, 2009 [4 favorites]


You wouldn't like him when he's angry, puny human.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:09 PM on January 6, 2009


Do you really want policy clarification, or are you just angry?

Unlike the other post I referenced, my FPP was not angry in the least, so please don't change the subject. Unless, of course, you deleted the FPP because I had previously made an angry comment -- another policy memo I apparently missed.

we're human, the site is fluid and that's what we work from

Except that your bias has always fallen to one side of the issue in the past, and this time was no exception.

You're welcome to cut off your hand if it will make you feel better.

No thanks, I already have a coping mechanism.
posted by Krrrlson at 3:09 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


Whenever Krrrlson seethes, I know the mods are doing something right.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 3:09 PM on January 6, 2009 [53 favorites]


Oh, sorry about that; I didn't even notice that the original post was yours at all or what slant either of the posts took.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:12 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


Capriciousness. It's the new black.
posted by blue_beetle at 3:12 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


It's like the election - don't worry, something else will explode tomorrow.

(Though I still think it's a shame we covered, oh, I forget what it was, instead of the Obama race speech... until someone angry and grumpy posted, ending up with the worst piost possible and the worst thread possible for something that's going to be remebered as an important moment in history. Oh well.

Not that "Israelis claim people they blew up were terrorists" is any great or unique event.)
posted by Artw at 3:12 PM on January 6, 2009


Except that your bias has always fallen to one side of the issue in the past, and this time was no exception.

Whose bias? I'm the one who deleted your post and I don't have much of a position on the I/P thing at all other than thinking it's a slowburn clusterfuck all around.

If you want to sit on the thing for a few days and try again, or take the stuff into one of the several open threads on the subject, you are welcome to do so. You know this very well. Bitching about mefites in general in one I/P thread, turning right around and posting a second I/P thread shortly thereafter, and then throwing a fit in Metatalk when the in-thread reaction to you timing is critical and your post gets nixed seems more like drama manufacturing than genuine confusion.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:16 PM on January 6, 2009 [2 favorites]


Krrrlson, your FPP was FAR better than the slyt train wreck Shetterley shat onto the blue, so, y'know, kudos there. And this is coming from someone who leans P in the I/P dichotomy, by the way (but I can't stand the sheer stupidity of Shetterley's post). You've been around these parts long enough to know that if a topic is being discussed, whatever the FPP's bias, the chances of the same topic getting another post soon after is rather slim. I'd rather your thoughtful, contextual, actually newsworthy post survived, but the other one was already 130-some-odd comments long. Your links should've gone there (although really, you should just wait a couple days and repost it, because there's no point in adding to the ridiculousness that that thread has devolved into). I'd also rather you keep your anger act elsewhere -- it dampens the thoughtfulness of your other comments.
posted by incessant at 3:24 PM on January 6, 2009 [6 favorites]


Except that your bias has always fallen to one side of the issue in the past, and this time was no exception.

It always surprises me when disgruntled MeFites take shots at the mods. Using MeFi mods as a punching bag is like kicking a puppy or sodomizing a paralyzed rabbit.

If there is another website or forum out there with better moderation than MetaFilter, well, I've never seen it.
posted by KokuRyu at 3:25 PM on January 6, 2009 [26 favorites]


I think it's something to do with moving pictures being worth 10,000 words. Or else it was a double.
posted by Elmore at 3:30 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


Whenever I'm about to post an FPP, I like to ask myself:

1. Is there already an existing FPP on this topic, say, just a couple posts down?

2. Does what I have to add have a more appropriate home in the already existing thread on the same topic?

3. Is Metafilter ready for yukkuris?

Usually helps me, anyway.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:33 PM on January 6, 2009 [6 favorites]


Or else it was a double.

No, my naive friend.

Sinister anti-Krrrlson forces are at work.
posted by Joe Beese at 3:34 PM on January 6, 2009 [2 favorites]


Can we please just ban all I/P threads for a while? Even when someone posts something interesting to the site on the topic; it just devolves in to the same I/P discussion that's been had a million times before. This is like Sarah Palin last fall.
posted by humanfont at 3:35 PM on January 6, 2009 [3 favorites]


Here's the thing. Your post was very good. It was better than the single-link video post, IMHO. I actually flagged the SL post because it was so poorly constructed. But the mods kept it up because other folks didn't agree with me (I hate when that happens, but whatever...). At that point, the I/P horse had left I/P barn. So your post was redundant. You may disagree, but bear this in mind: I/P threads are almost never about I/P posts. The substance of the post always gets drowned in the slobbering froth flowing freely from the keyboards of MeFites who, while normally sane people, suddenly turn into raging trolls at the mention of I/P. It's a weird thing, but that's the way it is.
posted by MarshallPoe at 3:36 PM on January 6, 2009


This is like Sarah Palin last fall.

Heh. You're all lucky I had Daily Kos to vent in.

Oh, that woman put a bee in my bonnet.
posted by Joe Beese at 3:39 PM on January 6, 2009 [4 favorites]


Can we please just ban all I/P threads for a while?

I first read that as: Can we please just ban all IP addresses for a while? Maybe that is indeed the solution here. Bannations for all!
posted by yeti at 3:40 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


Sinister anti-Krrrlson forces are at work.

Great! How can I sign on?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:41 PM on January 6, 2009 [5 favorites]


> Or else it was a double.

No, my naive friend.

Sinister anti-Krrrlson forces are at work.


A Doppelganger!
posted by Artw at 3:43 PM on January 6, 2009


Can we please just ban all I/P threads for a while?

How about forever? Does forever work for you? 'cause it totally works for me.
posted by dersins at 3:44 PM on January 6, 2009 [5 favorites]


Great! How can I sign on?

Flag and move on, or become a mod.
posted by Elmore at 3:45 PM on January 6, 2009


Policy clarification

The policy is that a member is not supposed to act like a jackass or abuse the mods.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:45 PM on January 6, 2009 [3 favorites]


crap, i'm doomed
posted by waraw at 3:46 PM on January 6, 2009 [3 favorites]


A Doppelganger!

Like an evil sockpuppet?
posted by Elmore at 3:47 PM on January 6, 2009


This is like Sarah Palin last fall.

Oh come on. Sarah Palin was a source of great comedy last fall. Even when trolls and concern trolls skipped hand-in-hand together through Palin threads, there was still no end to the laughter. Apart from all the inciting people to commit violence against a presidential candidate, that is.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:47 PM on January 6, 2009 [4 favorites]


There's an important lesson to be learned here: If you're going to make a shitty and editorialized I/P post, do it early in the day so the decent ones after it get deleted instead.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:48 PM on January 6, 2009 [4 favorites]


I first read that as: Can we please just ban all IP addresses for a while?

I'm just hoping that the Israelis don't join up with the Portuguese, and the Palestinians don't bring in the Canadians and the Turks. That would be a pretty nasty TCP/IP conflict.
posted by burnmp3s at 3:49 PM on January 6, 2009 [57 favorites]


Sinister anti-Krrrlson forces are at work.

Note the use of the Latin word sinister, denoting the left-hand part of the shield, but as viewed from behind. We're through the looking glass, people.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:50 PM on January 6, 2009 [4 favorites]


without editorializing or inflammatory language

Oh and don't kid yourself that the post was all impartial and golden thoughts and bunnies. It was a thinly veiled "Fuck you, Israel rules, but the world always sucks up to those dirty Palestinians," so lay off persecution shtick.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:52 PM on January 6, 2009 [11 favorites]


This is like Sarah Palin last fall.

Yes, I suppose this is a bit like Sarah Palin's last fall.
posted by Elmore at 3:54 PM on January 6, 2009 [3 favorites]


Previously
posted by timeistight at 3:54 PM on January 6, 2009


I want to thank the moderators for doing their best to maintain civil and coherent discourse on an issue which prompts profoundly ignorant, ad hominem, gratuitous and inflammatory comments from both "sides" of the issue. I've been very saddened by what I've observed in the threads over the last week -- I'd hoped for better from Metafilter and have stopped bothering to add comments -- but I do really admire the way in which the mods made some difficult choices and tough calls.

The single-link YouTube post was disappointing. And while there are disappointing posts aplenty on Metafilter, most of them matter less. The problem is that for issues of this degree of visibility, complexity, and significance -- and which are the focus of such passionate interest for so many members -- there should be an especially high standard for thoughtful, substantive posts. Huskerdont really set the standard here. I think all posts on this and other similarly high-octane topics should be at least this well-crafted. Posts like Shetterly's don't even try.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 4:00 PM on January 6, 2009


Krrrlson, I sympathise.
posted by nthdegx at 4:06 PM on January 6, 2009


Metafilter: golden thoughts and bunnies
posted by Joe Beese at 4:19 PM on January 6, 2009


That is a terrible FPP and I'm ashamed I let myself get drawn into the cesspool it was so clearly becoming. In the present political climate, a blatantly propagandistic, single link video with a heavy emotional impact could only have the effect that it had. Couple that with the OP's obtuse, shrill editorializing and the whole thing is an unpleasant spectacle.

Honestly, I can't see how that video is even remotely best of the web. Instead it looks like self-congratulation and/or flamebait, depending on your place in the political spectrum.
posted by felix betachat at 4:19 PM on January 6, 2009 [2 favorites]


Was the problem with a Shetterly post that it wasn't caught in time? After x-number of comments are posted is it then wrong to delete the thread? I've had a look at Shetterly's blog (the youtube link has since been fixed to remove a referring link url tail) and he seems like an interesting guy, but from the "I/P" (if we're really calling it that) posts he makes there it's pretty clear which court his balls are in. Nothing wrong with that, necessarily, but as was noted in the thread (to inexplicable derision) there was zero context to that video.
posted by nthdegx at 4:20 PM on January 6, 2009


Yeah, I/P brings out the emotions in people. It certainly does in me and I was getting pissy in the girl-facing-down-soldiers thread, which is why I quit it, I couldn't imagine it going well (actually, let me go remove it from activity. Oh, shetterly, postroad's been around forever, don't get too het up about him, he's... well... like family by now).

I don't suppose the tagging system can be used to add another click through screen, so that everytime someone uses the tags Israel, Palestine or I/P they get the old siren warning of "is your post really necessary?"
posted by Kattullus at 4:20 PM on January 6, 2009


MarshallPoe was right on from the outset of the earlier I/P post. It lacked context and did nothing but serve as a place-filler for the narrative the poster wanted to put forth about how the brave Palestinians stand up to the evil Jew aggressors. I was not positive that was the narrative the guy was advancing--I thought it was perhaps just a sloppy quick analogy without thought--and tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but his subsequent dozen posts made is patently clear. It was nothing more than an editorialized pretext to relaunch his position. It should have been deleted, and this place would not be the worst for it.

I did not see the second I/P post, but again, here MarshallPoe is correct. Once the initial crappy I/P post was given a pass to remain, the second post needed to go. We cannot have multiple posts about the same general topics mere hours after each other, no matter the disparity in quality.

There's a lesson there, I guess. Delete the crap posts early with impunity. If the issue has legs, a better post will come around.
posted by dios at 4:21 PM on January 6, 2009 [13 favorites]


foxy_hedgehog: "I want to thank the moderators for doing their best to maintain civil and coherent discourse on an issue which prompts profoundly ignorant, ad hominem, gratuitous and inflammatory comments from both "sides" of the issue. I've been very saddened by what I've observed in the threads over the last week -- I'd hoped for better from Metafilter and have stopped bothering to add comments -- but I do really admire the way in which the mods made some difficult choices and tough calls."

I would like to wholeheartedly second this sentiment.
posted by Effigy2000 at 4:21 PM on January 6, 2009


You know what book is a great book? Michael Chabon's The Yiddish Policeman's Union. It's being made into a movie by the Coen brothers. Alternate reality fiction, what if the Jewish refugees went to Sitka, Alaska? They mighta hung out with Sarah Palin, even. In any case, we wouldn't be having this tiresome discussion.
posted by fixedgear at 4:29 PM on January 6, 2009


In any case, we wouldn't be having this tiresome discussion.

Did you finish reading the book?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:33 PM on January 6, 2009 [2 favorites]


Modern conjugations:

I am an interested observer; you are a partisan; he is a troll.

I am emotional; you are shrill; he is being a troll.
posted by WPW at 4:36 PM on January 6, 2009 [7 favorites]


Do people really consider that post to be unbiased? It is setup as Israelis vs terrorists, and all the links except the news story about "UN condemnation" are to Israeli sources.
posted by smackfu at 4:36 PM on January 6, 2009 [2 favorites]


Sinister anti-Krrrlson forces are at work.

They're no match for Little Krrrl Krrrlson.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:36 PM on January 6, 2009


the narrative the poster wanted to put forth about how the brave Palestinians stand up to the evil Jew aggressors

Israeli soldiers were mentioned, not "evil Jew aggressors", which should lead us to wonder about the shrill narrative this perpetrator is injecting into his response.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:38 PM on January 6, 2009 [5 favorites]


Did you finish reading the book?

I'm waiting for the movie, or for the thread to reach a climax, whichever comes first.
posted by fixedgear at 4:38 PM on January 6, 2009


Oh good God! Just as I'm about to return to Planet Notangry fixedgear brings up The Yiddish Policeman's Union. I thought it was bad, a major let down (I loved Kavalier & Clay). I never understood the praise that was heaped on it. Anyway... I like Chabon, just not YPU.
posted by Kattullus at 4:39 PM on January 6, 2009 [3 favorites]


the narrative the poster wanted to put forth about how the brave Palestinians stand up to the evil Jew aggressors

it looks like self-congratulation and/or flamebait, depending on your place in the political spectrum.


Wow. Really? Let's look at the text of the FPP:
a moment of great courage

Palestinian girl, Israeli soldier. It made me remember 1989 Tiananmen Square Protests.
What she did undoubtedly took great courage, and comparisons can certainly be drawn between this and Tianamen Square, no matter where you are in the political spectrum. If you have a problem with shetterly modding his thread, that's one thing, but I don't get how people are reading "propoganda" out of the FPP itself.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:44 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'm waiting for the movie, or for the thread to reach a climax, whichever comes first.

It's worth reading. Without spoiling it for you, Chabon's alternate history is perhaps just as bleak.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:46 PM on January 6, 2009


sidenote - if you liked Kavalier & Clay then Men of Tomorrow: Geeks, Gangsters, and the Birth of the Comic Book is really worth reading.
posted by Artw at 4:46 PM on January 6, 2009


Do people really consider that post to be unbiased? It is setup as Israelis vs terrorists, and all the links except the news story about "UN condemnation" are to Israeli sources.
And the deaths or a number of children were glossed into the subsequent "media uproar," so no, I don't see it as unbiased either; though nor would I have described it as inflammatory if it had gone up first despite that bit of mealy-mouthed apologetics.
posted by Abiezer at 4:47 PM on January 6, 2009


Yeah, boo hiss to multiple front-page posts on the same subject! Now bring on the next presidential election!
posted by turgid dahlia at 4:48 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


Thanks for the tip, Artw, I'll need to add it to my mental list of books to pick up. I'm pretty sure a friend of mine has it. And as I'm bringing him my old Space: 1889 books from Iceland he better pony up.
posted by Kattullus at 4:49 PM on January 6, 2009


No problem.

(Also I like the idea of trying to derail an I/P thread into a discussion of Jewish people doing awesome things that in no way involves blowing anyone up or oppressing anyone - IN COMPLETE CONTRADICTION TO THE LAWS OF THE INTERWEBS)
posted by Artw at 4:56 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


It's worth reading. Without spoiling it for you, Chabon's alternate history is perhaps just as bleak.

I did read and finish and enjoy it, I was just kidding. People thought that Kavalier & Clay were real, they wrote to Chabon and the publishing company asking where they could find the comic books. Ain't life grand?
posted by fixedgear at 4:56 PM on January 6, 2009


I just realized that all this time I've been conflating and confusing Krrrlson and Kattullus.
posted by jtron at 4:58 PM on January 6, 2009


People thought that Kavalier & Clay were real, they wrote to Chabon and the publishing company asking where they could find the comic books.

At Powell's. Or on Amazon. Have these "people" you speak of never heard of the internets?
posted by dersins at 5:01 PM on January 6, 2009


Also I like the idea of trying to derail an I/P thread into a discussion of Jewish people doing awesome things that in no way involves blowing anyone up or oppressing anyone

On that note ~

The Russian Debutante's Handbook by Gary Shteyngart: Often funny, not too shabby.

Absurdistan by Gary Shteyngart: Seldom funny, stereotyping Slav-o-rama.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:03 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


Well, you *can* buy the comics now.

A lot of the history that the book draws upon is in the Men of Tommorow book btw.
posted by Artw at 5:06 PM on January 6, 2009


History is rewritten by the whiners.
posted by fleacircus at 5:07 PM on January 6, 2009


Metafilter: like sodomizing a paralyzed rabbit
posted by idiomatika at 5:07 PM on January 6, 2009


I actually find Chabon's alternate history to be really shabbily constructed. The following paragraph has some minor spoilers.

|||SPOILERWARNING|||

The history of The Yiddish Policemen's Union deviates from our own when millions of European Jews are let resettle in the Alaskan panhandle on temporary terms in 1940. The Holocaust still happens but instead of 6 millions Jews dying, it's 2 million. The problem is that this leads to Jews garnering less world-wide sympathy after WWII than in our history. That instead of Jews being embraced by the US and the world community they're still relegated to an outsider status. 2 million jews are still a lot of dead people, it would have been just as shocking. That's one problem. Other problems are such details as Manchuria having astronauts, there existing something called "The Third Russian Republic" and Berlin having been atom-bombed in 1946. All of these details made me go "what?!" How did the 1940 resettlement of Jews to Alaska lead to a world where Manchuria a) exists and b) has the resources to send people into space. You know this isn't a world where space travel is common place because the Manchurian astronauts are big news. The phrase "Third Russian Republic" indicates a longer history of democracy in Russia than is the case in our world. How that would have been affected by the resettlement of millions of Jews to Alaska is somewhat beyond me. Lastly, the atom-bombing of Berlin in 1946... why would Nazi Germany have lasted another longer in a world where they killed a third as many Jews as in reality (I presume the number of Gypsies, gay people and others who got sent to concentration camps and died there is the same)? And why would the US have atom-bombed Berlin? In Japan they didn't bomb Tokyo or Kyoto, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And when the allies decided to make an example of a German city, they chose Dresden. Lastly, Israel is started, but falls to its neighbors in 1948. The reasons for this are very unclear. Since it matters to the plot, I can both forgive it and find it infuriating at the same time.

Anyway, that's just one part of the manifold irritation that book evoked in me.
posted by Kattullus at 5:13 PM on January 6, 2009 [3 favorites]


Not deleting that single-link Youtube post was a mistake. A pretty large and surprising one, actually, given the mods' recent statements about trying to control the number of I/P threads on the front page.

Both posts should have been quickly deleted with a suggestion to post in one of the open I/P threads. That an obviously shitty post wasn't deleted - and a much better one was - is fair game for MeTa, and a pretty clear mod mistake.
posted by mediareport at 5:16 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


How many times do we have to say that both sides are wrong

Yeah, that even includes israel. you're fucking wrong if you think your side is golden and the other side is pure evil.

both sides are wrong

Now, who wants Japanese ice-cream?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:19 PM on January 6, 2009 [3 favorites]


Speaking of Yiddish, however, I have nothing but praise for Michael Wex's fine Born to Kvetch. It's a wonderful book. Languagehat loved it so that he plugged it not once but twice on his blog. Anyway, the glaring syntactic clashes between the idiomatic English as written and the Yiddish phrases Chabon throws into YPU is another facet of that book which drove me to despair.
posted by Kattullus at 5:21 PM on January 6, 2009


Urk. Google News just showed image that, even in thumbnail, is basically going to stick with me forever. Cheers Google! Cheers Kuwait times! Now I will go be ill.
posted by Artw at 5:25 PM on January 6, 2009


I am fabricating a post about a pro-ana Israeli soldier who assaults an obese member of Hamas, but I am going to wait until the current ruckus on the Blue dies down so that my well-crafted neutral post is taken seriously and soberly.
posted by Rumple at 5:26 PM on January 6, 2009 [2 favorites]


How did the 1940 resettlement of Jews to Alaska lead to a world where Manchuria a) exists and b) has the resources to send people into space.

Chaos theory. You know, the rolling of a Matzah ball in Alaska can cause a technological storm in Manchuria.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 5:27 PM on January 6, 2009


Jeez, I also just saw the full sized picture in question from Kuwait Times. Although, I'm of the opinion that we need to see more of that so people don't forget how truly savage this all is.
posted by Burhanistan at 5:29 PM on January 6, 2009


I thought it was bad, a major let down (I loved Kavalier & Clay).

Another hand up for disappointment with YPU. I couldn't finish it either.

But I did buy Men of Tomorrow on the basis of a Mefi recommendation and thoroughly enjoyed it, despite not having read comics for thirty odd years or so. And while I haven't read Born to Kvetch, I greatly enjoyed its successor, Just Say Nu.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:30 PM on January 6, 2009


If anyone would like a link to a very reputable charity that is able to get food and emergency medical supplies into Palestine, please MefiMail me.
posted by Burhanistan at 5:35 PM on January 6, 2009


Manchuria could easily have been a viable independent state - look at how just half of Korea got on, But you'd want to start your alternative history before the Manchus made the mistake of conquering China to make it really credible, I think.
posted by Abiezer at 5:39 PM on January 6, 2009


Yeah, there's nothing that prohibits an independent Manchuria, but it really makes no sense from a 1940 point of divergence. Especially one that leads to Manchurians in space. And really, since it's more of a throwaway, I'd be more inclined to let it go if there weren't more grating alternate history like the Berlin 1946 thing and the whole no-one-cares-about-the-holocaust business. I mean really, the world wasn't just shocked by the number of jews killed, but the manner in which they were so viciously murdered. 2 million is not one-third of a genocide.
posted by Kattullus at 5:49 PM on January 6, 2009


I'm was glad to see the video, because...

- It was something I hadn't seen before.

- As someone who's pretty staunchly pro-Israel in these matters, I was encouraged to see something that humanized both sides of the conflict; the fear in the girl's face and the uncertainty on those of the soldiers really struck me.

- It prompted to avenues of thought and places of consideration I might not otherwise have explored.

By comparison, the deleted post appears (to me) to be a collection of news links, most of which I had already seen in half a dozen other places. That doesn't mean the links were bad, but it wasn't unreasonable to conclude that this particular collection of links was somewhat redundant.

It sucks to have a FPP post received poorly; I've certainly been through it and deserved the thrashing I got. I got up, dusted off, laid low for a while until I thought I could do better. Raging about moderator bias is a non-starter in just about every community on the internet.
posted by DWRoelands at 5:52 PM on January 6, 2009 [6 favorites]


That's a thoughtful, humane and well-expressed opinion DWRoelands but I'm afraid it does nothing to address the vital question of MANCHUS in SPACE!!!
posted by Abiezer at 5:55 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


Agreed, Abiezer. While the posted YouTube video was stunning and a truly amazing story and lead me to learn about Huwaida Arraf who is a fascinating character, how does it solve the problem of creating a believable set of circumstances which lead to a free Manchuria who are leaders in space travel in 2006, given a point of divergence in 1940? Maybe a US bloodied by a longer war in Europe decides to escalate to a land invasion of China in the Korean War and that somehow leads to a break-up of China and an independent Manchuria? Or perhaps the Kuomintang would somehow be stronger after WWII and would be able to fight Mao and the Communists to a stalemate, during which Manchuria breaks free? Neither seems particularly likely and neither would explain Manchus in space. I mean, Japan and South Korea are pretty damn advanced technologically and neither have a manned space program.

It just doesn't make a lick of sense!
posted by Kattullus at 6:10 PM on January 6, 2009


a land invasion of China
Are you serious? You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia.
posted by Sailormom at 6:16 PM on January 6, 2009 [10 favorites]


You only have to look at the preponderance of heavy industry in the resource-rich rich great northeast (why did imperial Japan covet the place, after all) of the People's Republic post-1949 to see it as entirely feasible in purely material terms; if his faux history posits a Soviet collapse then why not have Manchuria go the way of Mongolia and leave the Chinese Empire? It was the Red Army who did most of the heavy lifting in the fighting there after the war, and certainly* the place had provided a stronghold for warlords prior to and subsequent the Japanese incursion.
*For "my dim recall" values of 'certainly'"
posted by Abiezer at 6:21 PM on January 6, 2009


It's certainly feasible in an ideal world geared towards that end for Manchuria to have a space program in 2006 but by 1940 the conditions that made an independent Manchuria very improbable were already set in place. And even if one allows for some pretty sharp deviations (a more powerful Kuomintang) I find it hard to think of a Manchuria that does end up a technological superpower with manned space travel, not if Japan and South Korea haven't pulled it off.
posted by Kattullus at 6:37 PM on January 6, 2009


Lashing out at the moderators in MetaTalk is like throwing rocks at the guys who have the guns.
posted by qvantamon at 6:41 PM on January 6, 2009 [3 favorites]


You're welcome to cut off your hand if it will make you feel better.

No thanks, I already have a coping mechanism.


And he totally needs that hand for it.
posted by nanojath at 6:48 PM on January 6, 2009 [6 favorites]


I could just admit I don't know and my history is shaky and second-hand Kattullus, but in the spirit of I/P discussions I think I'll call you Hitler instead. Hitler!
posted by Abiezer at 7:01 PM on January 6, 2009


You know who else called Hitler "Hitler"?
posted by Rumple at 7:12 PM on January 6, 2009


I didn't bother looking at the SLYT post when it was made because even the massacre of civilians gets boring after a while. But this talk of "evil Jew aggressors" got me stimulated. [As a Jew, I naturally think of them instead as "evil Israeli aggressors" - but I suppose that's neither here nor there.] So I watched the video.

It held my interest, as Dad used to say. It made me think:

Is this a rickroll to You Don't Mess With The Zohan? ... Openly throwing rocks at men with automatic weapons? Sheesh. Insurrection: you're doing it wrong... She looks a bit like my sister... She does not sound locally educated... Yeah, this is a bit like Tianamen Square... I've got news for the "evil Jew aggressors" crowd: if you tried this in Africa, they'd shoot you and then your cameraman without blinking and then go for a Fanta... I don't really know what started all this... I suppose you show either side as the instigators depending on what you left in and what you took out.

Not a favorite-worthy post. But a compelling inkblot. I consider the site marginally richer for its continuing presence. Though the margin would be wider if the comments weren't along the lines of "So?"... "Am I supposed to be impressed?" ... "Intellectual coward" ... "Lick my ball-sack."
posted by Joe Beese at 7:21 PM on January 6, 2009 [3 favorites]


if you tried this in Africa, they'd shoot you and then your cameraman without blinking and then go for a Fanta.

This points to one of the frustrating things about the video to me. The Israeli soldiers show great restraint and professionalism, such as very few soldiers in a battlefield situation would display. I don't see the American woman there as 'courageous', I see her as crazy and suicidal. Just because something is dangerous to do does not mean it takes courage to do it, or conviction in a cause.
And I just won't even speak to the silly attempt to compare this action to the one in Tiananmen Square. Even if this Rachel Corrie wannabe is Churchillian in her courage and what she did was noble and honorable, there is little in common with what happened in Red China on 5 June, 1989.
posted by dawson at 7:55 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


Jeez, I also just saw the full sized picture in question from Kuwait Times. Although, I'm of the opinion that we need to see more of that so people don't forget how truly savage this all is.

Like an idiot, I had to look...

I was going to ask you tell me that there's a body somewhere under that head. Then I reminded myself that it doesn't really matter.
posted by Joe Beese at 7:58 PM on January 6, 2009


Yeah, for me, the I/P threads have just been one big reminder that there's no reason to try and change anybody's mind in an online forum. There's just absolutely nothing to be gained by it. For one thing, you are doomed to fail. For another thing, you are doomed to fail. For another thing, even if you did manage to change somebody's mind, it is in no way worth the hassle and ignorance you have to put up with.

Every once in a while, I'll forget this, and get myself involved in some stupid argument or another. And then I'll remember why I avoid this crap - because I have a life to live, and it's just not worth getting upset about some random jackasses on the internet.

So thank you, purveyors of I/P FPPs, for reminding me of the futility of online debate. I'm going to go read a book now.
posted by Afroblanco at 7:58 PM on January 6, 2009 [5 favorites]


Metatalk: "slowburn clusterfuck"

Kattullus writes "I mean, Japan and South Korea are pretty damn advanced technologically and neither have a manned space program."

Japan not having a manned space program seems to be a lack of sufficient desire rather than lack of ability. They've obviously got the engineering talent for it and getting into space isn't that expensive.
posted by Mitheral at 8:16 PM on January 6, 2009


Metafilter: some random jackasses on the internet
posted by Joe Beese at 8:20 PM on January 6, 2009


You hung mao are vexing the T'angs. You're all getting exiled to the Clay.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:34 PM on January 6, 2009


I saw the picture in question at andrew sullivans page. I guess it's her bad luck that someone decided to fire a rocket from her general vicinity. I am so fed up with this bullshit I could cry. At some point don't decent human beings decide that they'd rather die than murder a child?
posted by empath at 8:37 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


It's a new world here at Metafilter. This entire thread, and nobody's used the world 'newsfilter' yet!

Here's a clue, Angry About Stuff People -- stop goddamn well posting links to news that you want to argue about to the front page, and we'll all be better off!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:42 PM on January 6, 2009 [8 favorites]


Actually, Arthur Waldron did a lengthy essay for the What If? alternate-history anthology that envisions Chiang Kai-Shek ceding Manchuria to the Communists in 1946 and holding the rest of the country. And then maybe Mao's successors had a space race with Nationalist China? I guess?
posted by ormondsacker at 9:13 PM on January 6, 2009 [2 favorites]




And you know, just for the record, I'm not totally opposed to discussing the Mideast mess with fellow MeFites. I just think the kinds of discussions we've been having are nonproductive and depressing.

For example, I would LOVE to have a discussion of Mideast policy; the kind of discussion that focuses on solutions, not a bunch of arguing about "who's right" or "who's more wrong." I think this could be a fascinating discussion, and I'm sure that a lot of MeFites would have constructive things to offer. I'd love to see people debate the merits of various solutions. For example, I'm a pretty outspoken supporter of a one-state solution, and would love to see that view challenged.

I just don't know how we'd have that kind of discussion here. All of the I/P threads just boil down to a bunch of "I'M RIGHT!" "NO, I'M RIGHT" "NO, LOOK AT THE CRUELTY!" "NO, THINK OF THE HOLOCAUST!" "SPEAKING OF WHICH, YOU'RE HITLER!" "NO, *YOU'RE* HITLER" "RAAAWR RAWWWR RAAAAAWR, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!" I actually did try to steer one of the Gaza threads towards a discussion on policy, but didn't meet with a whole lot of success - although, to be fair, a few people did take me up on my invitation to discuss policy, and I enjoyed that.

Maybe MeFi really isn't the right place to have that kind of discussion. If anybody here knows of a good place where I can go for that, please let me know.

(I've actually had a good discussion of Mideast policy on Slate, of all places. Weird, huh?)
posted by Afroblanco at 9:29 PM on January 6, 2009 [3 favorites]


this Rachel Corrie wannabe

Is anyone else kinda surprised that it took this long for the Rachel Corrie comparisons to come up? She was the first thing I thought of. Now that was a fun I/P thread...
posted by naoko at 10:47 PM on January 6, 2009


Afroblanco: After your MetaTalk flameout the other day, I thought you'd be super disagreeable on this issue, but if you support a one-state solution, I guess we can high-five and drink lemonade!

The problem is that any language calling for a truly democratic one-state solution will be willfuly construed as "death to Israel", since after all such a state wouldn't be anything like the present one (no apartheid, not 'for jews') and would probably need to have a different name.
posted by blasdelf at 11:08 PM on January 6, 2009


Metafilter: like sodomizing a paralyzed rabbit

I'm starting a pool on how long it will be before some irate shithead accuses Jessamyn of posting a gif of that, who wants in?

I liked the deleted post, if only because now I'm playing the name game with MeFi handles.

Krrrlson!
Krrrlson-krrrlson bo brrrlson, bonana fanna fo frrlson
Fee fy mo mrrrlson,
Krrrlson!

Now dawson!
Dawson dawson bo bawsin bonana fanna fo fawson
Fee fy mo mawson
Dawson!

Abiezer!
Abiezer-biezer bo beizer bonana fanna fo fiezer
Fee fy mo miezer
Abiezer!

Now, Marisa Stole the Precious Thing!

...

On second thought, fuck that.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:24 PM on January 6, 2009


If you want to sit on the thing for a few days and try again...

I assume that means I must somehow get into that magical period after your arbitrary personal limit of "too soon" and before someone else takes a I/P dump on the blue? Is there a notification or a queue I can sign up for?


Krrrlson-krrrlson bo brrrlson, bonana fanna fo frrlson

My mouth was overflowing with spittle just trying to read that. Not cool, man. Not cool.
posted by Krrrlson at 11:33 PM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]


Do not mistake my sincere name game love for mockery. Although catalysts, the FPP deletion and ensuing MeTa are largely tangential at this point. This thing is bigger than you, me, the site, and the Middle East all put together, and cannot be stopped.

Now, Blasdelf!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:53 PM on January 6, 2009


Krrrlson, let me put it this way: since you're a Zionist and I'm a Hamas-cuddler, neither of us should be making newsfilter posts on I/P — we're too emotionally attached to the subject to be able to rationally judge the quality of an FPP on it (just like self-linkers can't judge their own shit)

On preview: sticks fingers in ears, looks away from Alvy, begins droning la-la-la-la-la-la…
posted by blasdelf at 12:02 AM on January 7, 2009


It's obvious that Allah hates Krrrlson.
posted by bardic at 12:54 AM on January 7, 2009


I vote no more I/P threads at all. It's like abortion. You cannot have a civil discussion on this topic, because people who debate it seem to internalize the approaches of Hamas and the IDF: all or nothing, great moral drama unfolding, personal stake couldn't be higher, etc., so let's practice complete mutually assured destruction.

If something dealing with the I/P conflict is really "best of the web" quality, maybe. But I don't need MeFi to give me my news, and if you want to read endless I/P arguments, they are all over the rest of the damn blogosphere, ruining *other* once civil sites.

Krrlson, I don't don't why anyone thinks your post was so great. It was as axe-grindy as they come, just like the SLYT post you decry. So f'ing what if it had more links? You were basically saying, "too bad, Israel has a right to bomb schools because Hamas hides behind kids."

I'll tell you this: if a mad gunman is hiding behind a group of kids, only a moron or a sociopath would consider that a reason to kill the kids in order to get to the gunman.

A pox on all of these violent people. Killers are killers, and IDF and Hamas are equally disgusting,
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:31 AM on January 7, 2009 [16 favorites]


I think MeFi needs a special category for hot-button Newsfilter. I know the mods don't like Newsfilter, but many of the users seem to. If there are, say, 3 posts on the same general topic in a week, the mods should combine them into one free-for-all and wash their hands of the ensuing Lord of the Flies situation.
posted by lukemeister at 5:57 AM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'll play in the street before I'll argue about Israeli/Palestinian politics on the internet, but this thread is worth keeping for the phrase "'I'm an angry angry angry angry' dude routine." (However, I quibble: properly punctuated, the second single quotation mark should follow "dude." Also Krrrlson should change his name to "Grrrson.")
posted by octobersurprise at 6:15 AM on January 7, 2009


I have my Rachel Corrie biography sitting next to my Dan Eldon biography - it's part of my growing "idealistic youth don't belong in foreign war zones" collection.
posted by mrmojoflying at 6:29 AM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


"I vote no more I/P threads at all. It's like abortion. You cannot have a civil discussion on this topic, because people who debate it seem to internalize the approaches of Hamas and the IDF".

Fuck that. It's an incredilby important thing. It's important for everyone. There should be as many Israel-Palestine conflict posts as genuinely high-quality linked material will allow. Frankly, if there were only a calm, collected, intellectual discussion about it it'd make me want to vomit. It's good that people feel strongly about it. They should feel strongly. Understand that, and the conversations won't look as much like the troll-fests as everyone seems to think they are.
posted by nthdegx at 6:30 AM on January 7, 2009 [3 favorites]


It's an incredilby important thing. It's important for everyone.

This doesn't mean it belongs on Metafilter.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:53 AM on January 7, 2009 [4 favorites]


Afroblanco: After your MetaTalk flameout the other day ...

I think you need to re-familiarize yourself with the term "flameout."

Lots of people disagreed with me in that thread, but I did not flame out.

The problem is that any language calling for a truly democratic one-state solution will be willfuly construed as "death to Israel", since after all such a state wouldn't be anything like the present one (no apartheid, not 'for jews') and would probably need to have a different name.

That's interesting - I haven't thought much about the naming aspect. Still, I would think that if you could get people to agree on everything else, the naming issue would be one of the less controversial aspects of the plan.
posted by Afroblanco at 6:54 AM on January 7, 2009


BTW, blasdelf - I think the word you're looking for is "pile-on"
posted by Afroblanco at 6:55 AM on January 7, 2009


I assume that means I must somehow get into that magical period after your arbitrary personal limit of "too soon" and before someone else takes a I/P dump on the blue? Is there a notification or a queue I can sign up for?

Protip: the magical period is slightly longer than "shortly after taking a shit in the existing post on the subject".
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:00 AM on January 7, 2009 [5 favorites]


"This doesn't mean it belongs on Metafilter."

Which is why I clarified that the usual remit of quality linked content should be the guiding light. And I'm not referring to these examples, necessarily; I just object to the idea that one thread is big enough for this issue. It isn't.
posted by nthdegx at 7:08 AM on January 7, 2009


Afroblanco: Still, I would think that if you could get people to agree on everything else, the naming issue would be one of the less controversial aspects of the plan.

You have obviously never been in a band :)
posted by Kattullus at 7:38 AM on January 7, 2009 [2 favorites]


I just realized that all this time I've been conflating and confusing Krrrlson and Kattullus.

That's one of the weirdest things I've ever read on MetaFilter.

I don't see the American woman there as 'courageous', I see her as crazy and suicidal. Just because something is dangerous to do does not mean it takes courage to do it, or conviction in a cause.

Wow. Except for that. I don't care what your opinions on I/P are, if you don't think that woman has guts, you're nuts.
posted by languagehat at 7:46 AM on January 7, 2009 [4 favorites]


It's an incredilby important thing. It's important for everyone.

I've steered clear of all the I/P posts, but this statement has me a little baffled. Israel is a less than a quarter of the size of Maine, with a smaller population than New York City; why does it occupy such a large part of the world stage?

I really don't have a dog in this hunt, but this has always left me scratching my head. I know this is a sensitive subject for many, and I've probably pissed a lot pf people off by asking the question, which is honestly not my intent.
posted by theroadahead at 7:48 AM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


". . . 'of' people off . . . "

And now the typo squad will be on my tail, as well.
posted by theroadahead at 7:50 AM on January 7, 2009


I have my Rachel Corrie biography sitting next to my Dan Eldon biography

Just googled Dan Eldon and discovered the following:
- His biography (is this the one you mean?) looks really cool and I want it.
- He will be played by Daniel Radcliffe in the upcoming film Journey (apparently Eldon's mom personally hose Radcliffe - interesting).
- the reason his name sounded familiar to me at all is that as an obsessive Balehead I had heard of, but am ashamed not to have caught the TV doc Dying to Tell the Story.

Interesting stuff, thanks!
posted by naoko at 7:53 AM on January 7, 2009


Please elaborate as to why an informative, multi-link post on a distinct topic, without editorializing or inflammatory language merited deletion...

The real question is "Please elaborate as to why my informative, multi-link blah blah blah merited deleation."
posted by electroboy at 8:00 AM on January 7, 2009 [2 favorites]


It's an incredilby important thing. It's important for everyone. There should be as many Israel-Palestine conflict posts as genuinely high-quality linked material will allow.

I agree. MeFites can and will eventually solve this thing by arguing about it on the Internet.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:11 AM on January 7, 2009 [6 favorites]


- His biography (is this the one you mean?) looks really cool and I want it.

Yes, though that appears to be a new cover and probably a different printing than the one I have. Despite my snark about not being surprised when you get dead in a warzone, Eldon's case is interesting and the book is a great production in multiple modes (writing, drawing, photo). It also presents a considerable value as an artifact of the Somali conflict as he was as intrepid as he was foolish and amassed a considerable documented account of things that were happening there. It doesn't surprise me that his mother reserved some sort of final yes/no on elements of the film project. I had a friend who was familiar with the project several years ago and he mentioned that the family was very invested in it.
posted by mrmojoflying at 8:14 AM on January 7, 2009


Frankly, if there were only a calm, collected, intellectual discussion about it it'd make me want to vomit. It's good that people feel strongly about it. They should feel strongly. Understand that, and the conversations won't look as much like the troll-fests as everyone seems to think they are.

nthdegx, of course people "should" feel strongly about a pressing issue. Strength of opinion is not the issue here. You can express strong and passionate opinions without resorting to the hysterical denouncements and derails that have undermined the threads.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 8:22 AM on January 7, 2009


Eldon's case is interesting and the book is a great production in multiple modes

Thanks for pointing this out, I'm going to go read my copy again.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:25 AM on January 7, 2009


Israel is a less than a quarter of the size of Maine, with a smaller population than New York City; why does it occupy such a large part of the world stage?

Israel is at the crossroads of the 3 major religions that make up the majority of the world's population.
posted by desjardins at 8:32 AM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


Speaking as a Jew, we're not even in competition against Hinduism.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:36 AM on January 7, 2009


Israel is at the crossroads of the 3 major religions that make up the majority of the world's population.

There's an old Bloom County strip that's about the Falklands War. In it, a group of animals are asking a solider what he's doing and he responds, in a gungho fashion "These are OUR rocks! I will die to protect the honor of our rocks!" The animals note that the rocks are rather plain and ordinary looking, while the solider, looking out at the sea, exclaims "That's OUR water!"

I tend to feel the same way about Israel these days.

Israel is at the crossroads of the 3 major religions that make up the majority of the world's population.

The Hindus and Buddhists want to have a word with you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:46 AM on January 7, 2009 [2 favorites]


apparently Eldon's mom personally hose Radcliffe

I don't believe you, we would have read about that in the tabloids.
posted by jonmc at 8:48 AM on January 7, 2009


There's an important lesson to be learned here: If you're going to make a shitty and editorialized I/P post, do it early in the day so the decent ones after it get deleted instead.
posted by 0xFCAF at 6:48 PM on January 6 [3 favorites +] [!]


It has kind of always been that way. In a more perfect world the ill conceived slyt post would have been deleted, but once it stayed it was too late for Krrrlson's much better post. I am with the mods on this, although I think Cortex's cut your hand off comment merits an apology.
posted by caddis at 8:58 AM on January 7, 2009


I think Cortex's cut your hand off comment merits an apology.

Indubitably, I needed to sit down after reading that.

Fortunately, I already was.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:03 AM on January 7, 2009


"I've steered clear of all the I/P posts, but this statement has me a little baffled. Israel is a less than a quarter of the size of Maine, with a smaller population than New York City; why does it occupy such a large part of the world stage?"

Well, that betrays an interesting world view. How big is this place compared to bits of America I can relate to? a) It'd be significant if it was happening in Maine, but you'd have to really hav had your head in the sand when it comes to matters of international affairs if you don't think the everyone is watching the smallest move every country makes right now: Israel and Palestine, yes; but also the US, the UK, France. In addition to the catastrophic and arguably massively disporoportionately unjustified loss of life occuring, the outcome of this situation has a direct impact on the state of international security and international relations. Plus, what desjardins said.

"I agree. MeFites can and will eventually solve this thing by arguing about it on the Internet."

Yeah, but that shouldn't be the point of the threads. Though I've defended people's rights to be passionate on the subject, really these threads would go much better as interesting link/information exchanges.
posted by nthdegx at 9:05 AM on January 7, 2009


dawson writes "The Israeli soldiers show great restraint and professionalism, such as very few soldiers in a battlefield situation would display."

Well, yes, you're right, but in part that's because they're not on a battlefield.

The distinction between "fighting a war" and "occupying civilian territory" is often lost on people; arguably it's the reason we're in such a quagmire in Iraq (and why we had such difficulties in Vietnam). The Geneva conventions go into the distinction in depth, but tend to be ignored on the ground. Several authors' attempts to explain our Iraq debacle make much of the differences in training, core competencies, and leadership required of police versus military.

But the mere fact that you have young, barely trained soldiers with rifles attempting to police angry children with rocks* indicates the systemic problem.

* In another thread, a commentator complains that (pro-Palestinian) comments call what the children are throwing "stones" rather than the more threatening sounding "rocks". In an attempt to be scrupulous, I've called them "rocks" here.
posted by orthogonality at 9:25 AM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


Snausages.
posted by cjorgensen at 9:27 AM on January 7, 2009 [2 favorites]


that "great courage" post was really really shitty, gotta say. the girl's bravery notwithstanding, that post was a giant dump on the front page. i'm still surprised it never got deleted.

that said, krrrlson's being a putz. he knows that not all bad posts get deleted, and that one bad post staying up doesn't mean all bad posts get to stay up. the idea that there's a pro-palestine bias from the mods is laughable.
posted by shmegegge at 9:49 AM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


Speaking as a Jew, we're not even in competition against Hinduism.

From Brandon's link: Christianity makes up 33% of the world's population, and Islam makes up 20%. Jews are less than 1%. 33+20 = 53% - a majority.

Hinduism (13%) and Buddhism (5.9%) = 18.9%, not even as much as Islam. I do not mean to suggest that Hinduism and Buddhism are not major religions (I am buddhist) but that the three religions that have a stake in the I/P conflict together make up a majority of the world's population. I assume Hindus and Buddhists could care less, except for the human rights issues.
posted by desjardins at 9:55 AM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


Well, that betrays an interesting world view. How big is this place compared to bits of America I can relate to?

I'm not sure of your point here. Is my world view really that interesting because I use familiar geographic locations to get an idea of the size of unfamiliar ones? Are you floored when weathermen compare hail to golf balls? Have you never used yourself to relay comparative height?

As to desjardens, see Brandon Blatcher's response.

And to your "It'd be significant if it was happening in Maine . . ." comment, I'll just say that I think things are quite significant enough just where they're happening.

I had a feeling I shouldn't have asked. Again, I didn't mean to ruffle feathers.

On preview, I see that desjardens has rebutted BB's comment. I'll just bow out by saying that, like the posited Hindus and Buddhists, my main concerns in this are the human rights issues.
posted by theroadahead at 10:00 AM on January 7, 2009


Also, don't discount what we bring to the table on the chutzpah front. And the latkes.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:02 AM on January 7, 2009 [2 favorites]


the idea that there's a pro-palestine bias from the mods is laughable.

I don't think there's a pro-Palestine bias from the mods, but there's definitely one amoung the membership, and that makes the mods bias against shitstorms look a lot like a pro-Palestine bias.
posted by timeistight at 10:09 AM on January 7, 2009


Israel is a less than a quarter of the size of Maine, with a smaller population than New York City; why does it occupy such a large part of the world stage?

Because we, in order to maintain our sphere of influence in the area of the world where most of the remaining oil is, keep them flooded with money and weapons - which they use to keep their untermenschen in line.
posted by Joe Beese at 10:10 AM on January 7, 2009 [2 favorites]


timeistight writes "I don't think there's a pro-Palestine bias from the mods, but there's definitely one amoung the membership"

I can't speak for anyone else, but eight years ago, I suspect the bias would have been much more pro-Israel. But having seen the same folks who are Israel apologists also justifying Bush and the Iraq War, well, you figure anyone so wrong isn't likely to be right just because it's Israel dropping the bombs this time.

Which is funny, as a lot of the PNACers seem to have argued for PNAC because it supposedly provided security for Israel. How's that working out for you, Bill Kristol?
posted by orthogonality at 10:24 AM on January 7, 2009


Hinduism (13%) and Buddhism (5.9%) = 18.9%, not even as much as Islam.

My point is that Judaism is far down on the list of major religions, so it is somewhat odd that it has such a huge stake in that fight. It's an interesting piece of info.

None of this should be taken as disparaging against the Jews, they're swell people who owned the many delicious bakeries of my youth.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:33 AM on January 7, 2009




you're looking for is "pile-on"

Ah yes, one of my favorite words.
posted by mullacc at 10:49 AM on January 7, 2009


Frankly, if there were only a calm, collected, intellectual discussion about it it'd make me want to vomit.

?????

Yeah, god forbid people discuss the I/P situation in a calm, rational way. What good could possibly come from that? It's so much more productive to get angry and yell at people you don't agree with.

In fact, why bother trying to solve any problems at all? All that calm, collected, intellectual discussion just makes me want to vomit. People should just stick to solving problems with guns and rocks, since that seems to work out so well in places like Gaza.
posted by Afroblanco at 10:53 AM on January 7, 2009


Guns and stones, Afroblanco.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:56 AM on January 7, 2009


I'll be staying out of those Israel threads from here on out too. It's just not worth it. It literally just turned my stomach to see my position -- which is that both sides have committed sins, although Israel's have been considerably worse, and that there cannot be peace in the region until both sides recognize how they are contributing to war -- got twisted into me being some sort of rabid zionist. It's a toxic discussion, and I don't want any more part of it.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:26 AM on January 7, 2009 [2 favorites]


Protip: the magical period is slightly longer than "shortly after taking a shit in the existing post on the subject".

In other words, you refuse to shed any light on the matter or provide any semblance of meaningful guidelines to help us interpret your whims, other than your highly professional suggestion that I cut my hand off. Did mathowie ax the dental plan recently or something?
posted by Krrrlson at 11:28 AM on January 7, 2009


Krrrlson, I sympathize with what you're saying, but I'm not sure what amounted to a stunt post with a recognizable pro-Israel slant was any better than what we have now. More links, yes. Especially since you had responded so forcefully in the other thread, perhaps you can understand why the mods responded with "Jesus, more of the same?"
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:31 AM on January 7, 2009


Think of it this way: if you had made your post in the existing thread on the same topic, you would have provided a meaningful counter-argument, or perhaps an expanded point of view. Instead, you posted a new I/P post. Are you suggesting it isn't common practice to delete a latter post on a topic when the former is a couple lines away on the front page?

I don't even know why I ask, since it seems, from your multiple responses in this thread, that you have your mind made up already about what *really* motivated the deletion.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:38 AM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


In other words, you refuse to shed any light on the matter or provide any semblance of meaningful guidelines to help us interpret your whims, other than your highly professional suggestion that I cut my hand off. Did mathowie ax the dental plan recently or something?

That's amusing that you think we have a dental plan. cortex is trying to be polite here, but it's hard to play straight-up mod at the same time as replying to someone being really fighty about a post that was almost stuntish. So, here's some guidelines that may help you

- make posts that don't seem stuntish and reactionary, if you're not sure if they seem that way, feel free to run it by one of us. There's a higher standard for both newsfilter posts and "posts that tend to not go well around here" Please feel free to let us know if you'd like a list of what those topics are.
- If there's an existing post on the topic, try to post in that thread or wait a few days, longer for "types of posts that don't go well around here"
- If your post gets removed try to see that as part of the way the site operates and not as something personal, especially if there's a stated reason that fits in with the existing guidelines.
- If you decide to take it personally anyhow (backroom kickbannings? really?) and respond in a fighty aggressive way (shitting in threads, being hostile in MeTa) don't be surprised if people don't take your questions about how to do better seriously

Keep in mind that these guidelines are only "helpful" insofar as they apply to a large community website that you'd like to remain a member of and that, at some level, you value. I feel like your desire to fight about this topic is overshadowing your ability to write a Good Post for MetaFilter on this topic.

My political opinion on this topic is more or less like Astro Zombie's [I'm a depressed Jew about the whole thing] but the massive amounts of aggression that some people are bringing to this site are hurting MetaFilter and I don't care which side of the argument they're coming from, it sucks.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:42 AM on January 7, 2009 [5 favorites]


provide any semblance of meaningful guidelines to help us interpret your whims

Most of us who have been around later than 2002 understand perfectly and plenty of light was explicitly shed earlier in this thread.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:51 AM on January 7, 2009


In other words, you refuse to shed any light on the matter or provide any semblance of meaningful guidelines to help us interpret your whims

It's an old subject. It's come up a lot in the past. It's come up again, specifically, recently, re: I/P. This is not information that is new to you, and you're not asking for clarification in anything like good faith.

If you're as deeply unhappy at/with Metafilter as you seem, you can really just go your own way. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to hang around and act like a jerk.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:53 AM on January 7, 2009 [8 favorites]


Not to be overly corny and obvious, but it's preposterous to expect Israelis and Palestinians in the Middle East to get along when some people here can be so hateful and vindictive and would near about shed blood to made their very general 'point'. Sorta like some dude with a 'visualize world peace' bumper sticker getting road rage when someone pulls out in front of them.
posted by dawson at 11:57 AM on January 7, 2009


Man, I hate those guys and want to kill them.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:00 PM on January 7, 2009 [2 favorites]


What she did undoubtedly took great courage, and comparisons can certainly be drawn between this and Tianamen Square, no matter where you are in the political spectrum.

Did I miss the part where the Israeli soldier runs her over with a tank?
posted by cjets at 12:04 PM on January 7, 2009


Did I miss the part where the Israeli soldier runs her over with a tank?

Yeah, and neither were Chinese! Metaphor: DESTROYED!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:08 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


Tank Man wasn't run over with a tank either. Anxious onlookers pulled him into the crowd.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:09 PM on January 7, 2009


backroom kickbannings?

Jean-Claude Van Damme is...

Backroom Kickbanner

opens January 23
posted by Joe Beese at 12:42 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


The lesson of the Tank Man is that the column of tanks stopped, that they were ashamed in recognizing the righteousness of the lone man.

In this video, the remarkable thing is not the girl's courage, but the soldiers' shame. In contravention to their training they do not bludgeon and detain her, and they cave to her demand that they not take potshots at children — she scolds them nonviolently and they acquiesce like a child would to it's mother.
posted by blasdelf at 12:43 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


In this video, the remarkable thing is not the girl's courage, but the soldiers' shame. In contravention to their training they do not bludgeon and detain her, and they cave to her demand that they not take potshots at children — she scolds them nonviolently and they acquiesce like a child would to it's mother.
posted by blasdelf at 2:43 PM on January 7


Do you have an extended version with context? Because nothing you just described is evident from the video I saw.

Or are you articulating what the video means to you based on your viewpoint?
posted by dios at 12:48 PM on January 7, 2009


Tank Man wasn't run over with a tank either. Anxious onlookers pulled him into the crowd.

I have a vivid memory of at least one demonstrator being run over by a tank. Was this not the case?
posted by cjets at 12:49 PM on January 7, 2009


I don't think there's a pro-Palestine bias from the mods, but there's definitely one amoung the membership, and that makes the mods bias against shitstorms look a lot like a pro-Palestine bias.

which, upon further reflection, would then look like simple shitstorm control, yes? is this one of those things where you say "well, it looks like bias, and I think it's fucked up that you could allow it to look like bias even though it's not?" is that what it is?

I mean, if there's more palestinian support among the userbase (I don't know. I've tended to stay away from the threads.) I don't know what to tell you. There are also more liberals among the userbase. It's a community, and some communities have leanings one way or the other. You can stick around and try to have a civil discussion and good on you if you do. Or you can leave and best of luck to you. Or you can stick around and avoid those threads. There are many options available to anyone who really doesn't like palestine around here. What precisely is supposed to change? Are the more vitriolic pro-palestine members supposed to chill out? ok. I'd like to think the more vitriolic members should chill out in ANY discussion. What now?
posted by shmegegge at 12:57 PM on January 7, 2009


I have a vivid memory of at least one demonstrator being run over by a tank. Was this not the case?

there was a subsequent massacre. Tank Man's fate, however, is not known. The one thing that is known is that he was not, at that moment, run over by any of the tanks he was standing in front of. At one point, he was filmed climbing up on top of the first one to yell at the driver and bang on the hull with his fists.
posted by shmegegge at 12:59 PM on January 7, 2009


There's a higher standard for both newsfilter posts and "posts that tend to not go well around here"

Except when you choose not to apply it, yes? My reason for this meta was an incidence of blatant double standard, which you have admitted and refused to rectify, so I really don't think that you and cortex are warranted in calling this a bad faith post. The real question is whether you will apply the standards and guidelines you claim to uphold from this point on. We'll see, won't we?

In conclusion, I'd appreciate it if you and cortex did not accuse me of rabid aggression, of "throwing a fit" in Metatalk, of being "deeply unhappy," and so forth. Apart from a prior angry comment in a thread that had already devolved into a clusterfuck, I've been level-headed and rational here and in the deleted post. Frankly, by Metatalk standards, I've been like a wee babe conceived in a drunken threesome between Gandhi, Mother Theresa, and the Goddess of Serenity. Given the courtesy you've extended to so many flameout champions, it would be nice if you could do the same here instead of trying to lump me in that category. Unless, of course, that is the only way to get a meaningful response from you.
posted by Krrrlson at 1:04 PM on January 7, 2009


a wee babe conceived in a drunken threesome between Gandhi, Mother Theresa, and the Goddess of Serenity

*eagerly awaits FPP*
posted by lukemeister at 1:12 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


That baby's name was ....

Gantherernity.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:16 PM on January 7, 2009


BTW, blasdelf - if you were interested in what a real flameout looks like, observe Krrrlson in this thread. Now he's fully into the "attacking the mods" stage, which is usually the final act in a really bad play.

Krrrlson, I don't know you and have nothing against you. And I didn't read either of the threads in question. But realize that what you're doing is tantamount to showing up at a party, telling the hosts how shitty the wine is, how ugly their couch is, how you're pissed off at all of their friends, and then refusing to leave anyway.

And if it makes any difference, I really do kinda feel for you in a way. As I've stated above, I'm not pro-Israel by any stretch of the imagination, but nonetheless I've been made out to be "the enemy" for being offended by things like swastika use and Nazi comparisons. So yeah, a bunch of people on this site go really overboard with the rhetoric, and I've tried to not let this affect my opinion of them. But all the same, I think I'm going to stay out of the I/P threads, since very few people seem ready to have a calm, rational discussion about policy. You would be advised to do the same.

But, aside from that, please leave the mods alone. They do a good job and shouldn't be harrassed. Besides, this is, like, their place and all.
posted by Afroblanco at 1:21 PM on January 7, 2009 [3 favorites]


Some days I think I'm going to get a lot of work done around the house.

And then threads appear that just keep on giving.

Why, yes, I am more than a little ashamed of myself.
posted by middleclasstool at 1:21 PM on January 7, 2009


In other words, you refuse to shed any light on the matter or provide any semblance of meaningful guidelines to help us interpret your whims

Seriously, where's my official Metafilter acceptable standards of behavior flowchart, goddamit? And while you're at it, sketch me up one for how to behave when the grocery store runs out of those asian pears I like.

The answer is not to set the produce manager on fire. Live and learn.
posted by electroboy at 1:23 PM on January 7, 2009 [3 favorites]


Now he's fully into the "attacking the mods" stage, which is usually the final act in a really bad play.

No, he's just trolling. As usual.
posted by dersins at 1:24 PM on January 7, 2009


Oh god forbid an FPP be removed. Truly, a tragedy. A personal slight on a scale heretofore unimagined. Minutes were lost, whole minutes! Can you believe such a thing is permitted? My god, those poor minutes. Let us bewail those fine minutes, once arrayed in glory, now lost forever.

The loss to the world is incalculable.
posted by aramaic at 1:25 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


We'll see, won't we?

You're twiddling your mustache, aren't you?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:27 PM on January 7, 2009 [2 favorites]


Fuck that. It's an incredilby important thing. It's important for everyone.

It's not *that* important, relative to the attention it gets. Would that we had such passionate debates and strong opinions on climate destruction, the Kashmir situation, or the genocide of Native people in the Americas, all equally important to me, if not more so. (The hypocrisy of Americans who insist that the Jews OR the Palestinians must have their biblical homeland back while living without a conscious qualm on land stolen from Native people always disgusts me.)

The situation is intractable. War will not solve it unless you kill everyone on one side or the other. Deliberately killing civilians to further a military objective is always wrong in my moral universe, and to do it in response to "terrorism" makes you no better than a terrorist yourself, certainly true when the casualty numbers are so glaringly disproportionate, when so many children are being killed by weapons purchased with my motherfucking tax dollars.

So a pox on Hamas and a pox on the IDF. They can both go to hell. Oh, wait, they've already created one on earth.

Personally, I'd invite all the non-combatant civilians in Israel, Gaza, WB, and OT to emigrate to the US and enjoy permanent asylum. It would end the conflict in a generation.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:38 PM on January 7, 2009 [3 favorites]


You're twiddling your mustache, aren't you?

I was thinking the exact same thing.
posted by shmegegge at 1:39 PM on January 7, 2009


Except when you choose not to apply it, yes? My reason for this meta was an incidence of blatant double standard, which you have admitted and refused to rectify, so I really don't think that you and cortex are warranted in calling this a bad faith post.

Early on in the thread, the reason was given that your post followed an earlier post. It wasn't a double standard, or motivated by biases by the mods. You thanked us for the answer.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:41 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


"Enough already" is not the same thing as a "double standard."
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:46 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


In conclusion, I'd appreciate it if you and cortex did not accuse me of rabid aggression, of "throwing a fit" in Metatalk, of being "deeply unhappy," and so forth. Apart from a prior angry comment in a thread that had already devolved into a clusterfuck, I've been level-headed and rational here and in the deleted post. Frankly, by Metatalk standards, I've been like a wee babe conceived in a drunken threesome between Gandhi, Mother Theresa, and the Goddess of Serenity.

You're either trolling or completely, utterly, almost unbelievably oblivious to your own behavior and/or the meaning of worlds like "level-headed" and "rational." I take no position on the matter; I merely note the logical alternatives.

(If you do decide to cut off your hand, I will be happy to provide the chainsaw and sell tickets.)
posted by languagehat at 2:05 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


Not to derail, but while we are discussing flushing hot topic turds, this election-I/P noise should go as well.
posted by dios at 2:13 PM on January 7, 2009


Bad Ideas Never Die
posted by Rumple at 2:15 PM on January 7, 2009




Or are you articulating what the video means to you based on your viewpoint?

I hope dios one day answers where the video articulates to him his own viewpoint of "evil Jew aggressors", an aggressive statement which is nowhere to be found in the post's wording or the post content itself.

One might come away from reading dios' shrill comment noting that he has articulated his own inherent biases.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:18 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


I was thinking the exact same thing.

You owe me licensing fees.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:18 PM on January 7, 2009


Afroblanco: BTW, blasdelf - if you were interested in what a real flameout looks like, observe Krrrlson in this thread. Now he's fully into the "attacking the mods" stage, which is usually the final act in a really bad play.

Yes, you were clearly far more restrained in the Boffenburg thread, and yours was more of a "lets pile on this guy who sucks" rather than a "why was this great injustice visited upon me and not him".

But both were structurally flameouts — a solitary poster makes an aggrieved MetaTalk post expecting some people to agree with them, but does not find any compatriots and finds their points rebuffed.

You did a good job of extinguishing your flames by keeping the thread from being about you personally, but you were definitely at-risk.
posted by blasdelf at 2:21 PM on January 7, 2009


But both were structurally flameouts — a solitary poster makes an aggrieved MetaTalk post expecting some people to agree with them, but does not find any compatriots and finds their points rebuffed.

We have a difference of opinion then. My impression is that a flameout requires someone to actually flame out, which I didn't do. It typically involves a massive loss of temper, and thus the "fireworks." I was probably the most calm person in that thread.

Besides, I could give a crap if people agree with me. I made a post because I noticed a "user" acting in a way that I thought was suspicious, and I wanted to point it out. And for the record, I'm still suspicious of "Boffenburg." But that's neither here nor there.
posted by Afroblanco at 2:32 PM on January 7, 2009


Listen, here's the thing: shetterly's post is a shit post. The problem with large ongoing stories (I/P, Sarah Palin, general election stuff) is that shitty posts that would normally be deleted are left to stand, to prevent the creation of MORE posts about the same damn topic.

Krrrlson, I didn't look at your post, so I'm not judging it based on its quality. But generally, a good idea on MeFi is to take a look around before you make a post. Is there a recent post on I/P? Yes. Don't post yours. You further endanger the chances of your post by taking a giant shit in shetterly's post first, making your post into a stunt post. Those are your two mistakes, posting I/P when there was a recent thread, and making it so reactionary. That is why it was deleted.
posted by graventy at 2:37 PM on January 7, 2009


Following up graventy, Krrrlson's post was
* on pointless wikipedia page filler link
* one news piece critical of Israel
* one news piece giving the official Israeli side
* two old-news backgrounder pieces designed to absolve Israel
* and two links to official Israeli propaganda outlets
* and one "oh noes, Israeli views being censored" news piece

pretending that's "informative,... without editorializing" just doesn't stand up. Indeed, it insults our intellgence.
posted by orthogonality at 2:55 PM on January 7, 2009 [5 favorites]


My impression is that a flameout requires someone to actually flame out

I agree with this.
posted by languagehat at 2:59 PM on January 7, 2009


Also worth noting is the commentor's reactions. The community is self-policing, and 6 of the first 7 comments were basically "again?"

The mods don't always act alone.
posted by graventy at 3:16 PM on January 7, 2009


The mods don't always act alone.

But no, my friend, no. At the end of the day, when the epic battles are all over, each single moderator, mathowie, jessamyn and cortex, their bloody swords now sheathed, their bloodstained kimonos hangining rakishly off one shoulder, depart the battlefield alone. Lone samurai, heading into the setting sun. Fade to black.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:31 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


I don't think there's a pro-Palestine bias from the mods, but there's definitely one amoung the membership,

Funny. It looks like an "anti mass-killing of civilians bias" to me. Perhaps to people like Krrrlson, who cheer the murder of schoolkids (per his comment highlighted by jess), it seems pro-Palestinian.

Personally, I'd invite all the non-combatant civilians in Israel, Gaza, WB, and OT to emigrate to the US and enjoy permanent asylum. It would end the conflict in a generation.

People can be surprisingly good at holding grudges: see IRA donations from the US, the stupid memorial to the Glencoe Massacre in New Zealand, the bombing of a Synagogue in France, and many other examples I can't really be arsed dragging out in depressing detail.
posted by rodgerd at 3:44 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


Krrrlson's last point isn't without merit. This thread didn't have to go quite the way it did. It was a justified call-out on two decisions that didn't seem to be joined up. Yes he's obviously angry about it, but that doesn't mean he's talking gibberish or can't be reasoned with. Passive aggression is aggression too.

Krrrlson, reading between the lines, it's pretty obvious that everyone agrees that the SLYT I/P post should have been deleted. It wasn't. I don't think the moderators like to delete threads that are many comments deep. It's bound to happen sometimes. But it's better that the moderation continues than posts being allowed to stay up that shouldn't have done just to somehow compensate.
posted by nthdegx at 3:44 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


The mods don't always act alone.

*frantically scans grassy knoll*
posted by lukemeister at 3:44 PM on January 7, 2009 [4 favorites]


At the end of the day, when the epic battles are all over, each single moderator, mathowie, jessamyn and cortex, their bloody swords now sheathed, their bloodstained kimonos hangining rakishly off one shoulder, depart the battlefield alone.

"We lose. We always lose. Only the hosting providers win."
posted by rodgerd at 3:45 PM on January 7, 2009


Perhaps to people like Krrrlson, who cheer the murder of schoolkids (per his comment highlighted by jess), it seems pro-Palestinian.

It seems that way to me too. Where's my ad hominem attack?
posted by timeistight at 4:03 PM on January 7, 2009




can we have our favourites back ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 4:10 PM on January 7, 2009


rodgerd writes "People can be surprisingly good at holding grudges:"

Wasn't Kach basically founded out of New York City? I remember that after the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre, the Israeli govrnment painted Baruch Goldstein as an unbalanced American immigrant out of touch with Israeli values (and then they banned Kach), and finally bulldozed the memorial erected to him.
posted by orthogonality at 4:15 PM on January 7, 2009


Krrrlson, reading between the lines, it's pretty obvious that everyone agrees that the SLYT I/P post should have been deleted.

I don't think that's obvious at all. There are numerous posts in this thread from people saying how much they valued shetterly's post, and numerous posts saying that they believe krrrlson's post was trolling.

Personally, I didn't think the shetterly post was a great post -- it was at least as good as any number of lolcatty, football-in-groin, ghost riding the whip, don't-taze-me-bro internet meme type posts (albeit of a much more serious subject). How insubstantial you feel it is tends to depend on your personal subjective response to any given post, but the genre has its fans -- as did shetterly's post.

Krrrlson's post, in contrast, was pure axe-grinding trollery. There's very little I'd personally delete from Metafilter if I were a mod, aside from spam, self-linky stuff and other obvious abuses, but I'd have deleted Krrrlson's post too. Weak as shetterly's post may have been, Krrrlson's was much, much weaker.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:32 PM on January 7, 2009 [2 favorites]


electroboy, Trader Joe's often has those Asian pears, and at a decent price.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:33 PM on January 7, 2009


I don't know if this is the time or place to mention this, but you know those jews killed Christ, right? That's all I'm saying. I'm just trying to point out it's the jew's fault, ok?
Did I mention they killed the son of god ? Cause that's what they did. Nailed him to a wooden cross and everything. So . . . have you all heard about declawing cats?
posted by nola at 8:30 PM on January 7, 2009


what's this about oriental pears?
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:32 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


You people are still here?
posted by Burhanistan at 8:34 PM on January 7, 2009


What do you mean, "you people"?
posted by nola at 8:55 PM on January 7, 2009


nola, where you from, boy?
posted by Burhanistan at 9:03 PM on January 7, 2009


Texas is the place.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:04 PM on January 7, 2009


Did I mention they killed the son of god ? Cause that's what they did. Nailed him to a wooden cross and everything.

do you have an extended version with context?
posted by pyramid termite at 9:22 PM on January 7, 2009


I think this thread has reached the "Burn after Reading" phase.

CIA Superior: What did we learn, Palmer?
CIA Officer: I don't know, sir.
CIA Superior: I don't fuckin' know either. I guess we learned not to do it again.
CIA Officer: Yes, sir.
CIA Superior: I'm fucked if I know what we did.
CIA Officer: Yes, sir, it's, uh, hard to say
CIA Superior: Jesus Fucking Christ.
posted by humanfont at 9:25 PM on January 7, 2009 [1 favorite]


If only we could stop the wheel of samsara and always go directly to that phase here. Would that be cheating a vital, natural process?
posted by Burhanistan at 9:28 PM on January 7, 2009


I don't believe you, we would have read about that in the tabloids.

*blush* I was totally hoping not to get called out on that typo.

So anyway, I am really happy to hear that I'm not the only one in the world who was a little confused about tank man - for as long as I've known about that picture, I'd always assumed that a minute or so later, he was run over, but there were no pictures of it because people thought that would be crass, or something. I found out I was wrong about this like 6 months ago and was really, really embarrassed.
posted by naoko at 9:33 PM on January 7, 2009


No, Burhanistan, Texas is the reason.
posted by jtron at 10:33 PM on January 7, 2009


you know those jews killed Christ, right?

So why is it that the Jews always take the rap for this, while the *real* killers, the Italians, get a pass?

Presumably it has something to do with their preparedness to switch sides when they see which way the wind is blowing? One minute they're nailing the guy to a cross, a few weeks later they've established the head office of his fan club right at the heart of their empire and are using *that* to ensure loyalty and compliance to their imperialist cause.

No wonder that Machiavelli was an Italian. When it came to the ruling class hustle, the Italians had it down pat.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:59 PM on January 7, 2009


Pah, everyone knows Pontius Pilate was from Perthshire.
posted by Abiezer at 12:15 AM on January 8, 2009


Is "trolling" a synonym for "disagreeing with the more vocal"?
posted by bondgirl53001 at 2:01 AM on January 8, 2009 [2 favorites]


Did I mention they killed the son of god ? Cause that's what they did. Nailed him to a wooden cross and everything.

do you have an extended version with context?


This will tell you everything you need to know.

And by "everything you need to know", I mean "No more questions!"
posted by Joe Beese at 5:37 AM on January 8, 2009


I guess it's a little late for me to use the "sarcasm" tag.
posted by nola at 5:55 AM on January 8, 2009


Texas is the Reason
posted by caddis at 5:58 AM on January 8, 2009


Did I mention they killed the son of god ?

*shrugs*

But he came back.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:58 AM on January 8, 2009 [1 favorite]


Can we close or delete this thread now? I mean, there's already better metatalk threads addressing this. Or even if there isn't, can anything worthwhile and new really be added?
posted by cjorgensen at 7:01 AM on January 8, 2009


you know those jews killed Christ, right?

The other day I got this song stuck in my head with the words "Christ-killa" in place of the actual title.

On listening to the song for the first time in over a decade, jesus christ, it's fucking terrible.
posted by stet at 7:05 AM on January 8, 2009


What better threads? I see a PS3 thread, a closed stories rehash thread, a minor page tweak thread and a why does everyone live nowhere thread. Anyway, this is the point in the thread, prior to the longboat entering, in which mirth and merriment occur (and if you are put off by the whole Christ killing thing, pssst it is a joke about trolling).
posted by caddis at 7:09 AM on January 8, 2009


Where's my ad hominem attack?
posted by timeistight at 12:03 AM on January 8


You, sir, smell of poo.
posted by Grangousier at 7:09 AM on January 8, 2009


TEXAS IS THE REASON
posted by generalist at 7:51 AM on January 8, 2009


The other day I got this song stuck in my head with the words "Christ-killa" in place of the actual title.

I'm judging a trial with some peculiar facts,
I'm tense and nervous can't seem to relax,
He says he's God, but what if he's right,
If I crucify him and he comes back tonight?

I'm a Christ Killer,
Qu'est-ce que c'est?
Fa-fa-fa-fa fa, fa-fa-fa-fa fa,
Better run run run run run run run away
OH OH OH OH...

I start a crucifixion, can't seem to finish it,
They get the chance to pardon him, but stab a spear into his tit,
His corpse goes in a cave, with a big rock in front of it
I killed the fucker once, have I got to kill him again?

Christ killer,
Qu'est-ce que c'est?
Fa-fa-fa-fa fa, fa-fa-fa-fa fa,
Better run run run run run run run away
OH OH OH OH
AY AY AY AY AY UM
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:01 AM on January 8, 2009 [1 favorite]


caddis, I'm one of those heathen types who refuses to take offense for other people, so that's not it. I was just kind of pointing out that we're so far off topic at this point that the thread has served it's purpose and should be marked as resolved (or whatever is done at this point). But don't let me piss in anyone's Cheerios. Carry on you jew hating, Christ-killing, Palestinian loving, kitten declawing, PETA member, rabble-rousers!
posted by cjorgensen at 8:11 AM on January 8, 2009


On listening to the song for the first time in over a decade, jesus christ, it's fucking terrible.

I still dig it. But then I liked almost everything on that album - especially the voodoo song where the voodoo priestess sticks a needle in the eyes of her Ice-T voodoo doll and Ice-T screams "My eyes! Bitch!"
posted by Joe Beese at 8:15 AM on January 8, 2009 [1 favorite]


Is "trolling" a synonym for "disagreeing with the more vocal"?

If it was, would your comment be a troll?

TBH, I'm not getting your point at all here. There's no shortage of vocal advocates of pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian positions on that shettingly thread. Nobody is accusing anyone on either side of trolling.

I believe Krrrlson's post is trolling, not because it takes any particular position, but because he obviously believes that shettingly's post is an attempt at one-sided propaganda, and so he's determined to correct it with his own counter-propaganda initiative.

Now, do you suppose that any thread created in such a spirit is likely to result in reasoned, generous and civilized discussion of the subject, or do you suppose the outcome is likely to be yet another shitstorm? I'd contend that it's the latter, and deliberately creating shitstorms has always been trolling in my dictionary.

You want to use the site to fight their own personal propaganda wars? Get your own blog.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:17 AM on January 8, 2009


we're so far off topic at this point that the thread has served it's purpose

What was its purpose again?
posted by fixedgear at 8:20 AM on January 8, 2009


the thread has served it's purpose and should be marked as resolved (or whatever is done at this point)

Really, what's done at this point—if people seem to be having a good time and the thread itself isn't going to hell—is usually just leaving it open to wander off topic. So, hey, Cheerios all around!
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:22 AM on January 8, 2009 [1 favorite]


I still dig it. But then I liked almost everything on that album - especially the voodoo song where the voodoo priestess sticks a needle in the eyes of her Ice-T voodoo doll and Ice-T screams "My eyes! Bitch!"

"My eye! ...Bitch!" was a catch-phrase between me and my friends for about a year. (The second time I've had to say that about some random song lyric that appeared here, although I don't remember the other one right now...something else early '90s, no question.) But really, yeah, not a good album by any objective measure.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:30 AM on January 8, 2009 [1 favorite]


Can I have pieces of pear on my Cheerios? The round, Asian pears, please.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:30 AM on January 8, 2009


Then can we open back up the thread about the guy with THE ALL CAPS blog? I'm sure all kinds of fun could be had there!

Sorry for the off-topic derail. I didn't know we'd entered the good time phase.
posted by cjorgensen at 8:32 AM on January 8, 2009


Sorry for the off-topic derail

Oh god, you're doing it wrong! Thrust manfully into the derail!
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:34 AM on January 8, 2009


I had Crunchy Nut Cornflakes for breakfast this morning. Now that's a cereal.
posted by minifigs at 9:01 AM on January 8, 2009


but does it stand up to warm milk?
posted by pyramid termite at 9:08 AM on January 8, 2009


Can we close or delete this thread now?

Hell, the fork was pretty much stuck in this one once the plaintiff conceded his deleted post was shit.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:12 AM on January 8, 2009


"My eye! ...Bitch!" was a catch-phrase between me and my friends for about a year.

For those of you who want to share the joy, it comes at 1:27.

Makes a great ringtone!
posted by Joe Beese at 9:20 AM on January 8, 2009


Bodycounts in the house! Bodycounts in the house!
posted by Artw at 9:29 AM on January 8, 2009 [1 favorite]


(Bodycount is currently around 750)
posted by Artw at 10:03 AM on January 8, 2009


Makes a great ringtone!
I love the song, but I can only imagine the horror of having THAT scream out of my cellphone at the wrong moment...

PRESENTER: Now, you see here on this slide that enterprise moves into loss at...
MY PHONE: MY EYE! BITCH!
PRESENTER: ...
posted by DWRoelands at 10:10 AM on January 8, 2009 [1 favorite]


Depressingfilter
posted by Artw at 11:13 AM on January 8, 2009


Maybe we should keep it open just in case this post avoids getting deleted. I mean, it's actually a pretty well-composed post, but newsfilter.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:13 AM on January 8, 2009


Nah, it came and went like the summer wind.
posted by fixedgear at 11:24 AM on January 8, 2009


Have a great Thursday.
posted by dawson at 11:24 AM on January 8, 2009 [1 favorite]


That last post was of course far better and less pointed than either the YouTube post or Krrlsons peice. So it goes...
posted by Artw at 11:28 AM on January 8, 2009 [1 favorite]


So, hey, Cheerios all around!

They aren't as popular here in the UK, because we usually serve our breakfast cereal with warm piss.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:59 AM on January 8, 2009


Cheerios are a Minnesota invention. Prince and Cheerios.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:01 PM on January 8, 2009


That reminds me of one of my favourite How I met Your Mother jokes:

Don't you have black people in Minnesota?

Not when Prince is on tour.
posted by minifigs at 12:42 PM on January 8, 2009


Man, that was boring.

Work's been super busy, so I don't have a lot of MeFi time, but I expected, with, like, 250 comments, that I'd find some neat stuff about Foghat or something in here.

Or even that the thread had devolved into talking about Ron Asheton's recent death (I'd put an FPP, but I don't have the time to scour youtube. Provisional title: No Fun).

Instead, it's, like, still going.

I know that I'm to blame for my fair share of long-ass MeTas, but c'mon… I just wasted my lunch hour, and I don't think ANYONE seriously cares about this bullshit anymore. I mean, really, hopefully even Krrrlson's off doing something more productive or charitable or at least fun. Building bridges or washing homeless or teaching midgets to linedance or something.
posted by klangklangston at 12:58 PM on January 8, 2009


Knock yourself out klang.
posted by minifigs at 1:02 PM on January 8, 2009


What most people don't know is that Cheerios are Italian doughnut seeds.
posted by pianomover at 4:37 PM on January 8, 2009


Where's the garlic?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:17 AM on January 9, 2009


Where's the garlic? Why, it's on the Italian doughnut seeds, of course.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:09 AM on January 9, 2009


But it's not! Hownthehell are these Italian doughnut seeds without garlic?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:09 AM on January 9, 2009


Another post shot down that was better than the YouTube post or Krrlsons peice. C'est le Guerre.
posted by Artw at 10:02 AM on January 15, 2009


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