...and HAMBURGER in a sarcastic font represents utmost sincerity

February 16, 2010 11:13 AM

Idiopath on October 20th, 2009: If metafilter supported it, using an absurd font would probably be a better analog.

The subject of sarcasm notation came up in October of last year, and while HAMBURGER has started to gain traction, I wanted to throw this sarcasm font example out there for consideration/debate/mocking.

(Note: this is in no way a callout or anything of Idiopath; his was just the first comment in that thread referencing the idea of a sarcastic font.)

posted by davejay to Feature Requests at 11:13 AM (105 comments total)

Great, now people will think even our hamburgers are left-leaning.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:17 AM on February 16, 2010 [17 favorites]

Explicitly marking a form that is intended to be unmarked for humorous purposes. What a great idea!
posted by DU at 11:19 AM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

I had not realized that backwards italics break my brain.
posted by smackfu at 11:20 AM on February 16, 2010 [15 favorites]

I understand that it's the idea and not necessarily the implementation, but come on. Reverse italic arial? That isn't even HALF assed. It's, like, 10% assed. Tops.
posted by dirtdirt at 11:21 AM on February 16, 2010 [5 favorites]

Not that I support this idea, but we could redefine the <s> tag as "sarcasm" and use CSS to render it as non-strikethrough'd Comic Sans, or something. We would still have the <strike> tag for when we really need it. A little database wizardry could only apply this change to posts newer than [activation date] so old stuff isn't borked.

But I need to stress that I really don't support this idea. I actually think it sucks eggs. Please, please, don't do it, admins.
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 11:23 AM on February 16, 2010

I think it makes sense to have a sarcastic font. We already have a passive-aggressive font in Comic Sans.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 11:24 AM on February 16, 2010 [3 favorites]

backwards handwriting is what the crazy people use, I have always been told. [my mother and sister inform me that left-handed people also sometimes write this way.]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:24 AM on February 16, 2010

I've always thought part of the charm of metafilter was never quite knowing if someone was being serious or not. That ambiguity makes reading here an adventure.
posted by Kimberly at 11:25 AM on February 16, 2010 [6 favorites]

That made my head hurt. Or what smackfu said.

When there is a sarcasm failure it is always due to poor writing or poor reading comprehension. If everyone wrote as well as me and read more carefully we wouldn't have this problem!
posted by cjorgensen at 11:26 AM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

Why is it so painful to read left-leaning text?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:29 AM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

I am never sarcastic, so this would be useless to me.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:31 AM on February 16, 2010 [7 favorites]

After I've read a few sentences in sarcastitalics, it starts to look normal and everything else appears italicized. What I obviously need is a sarcasm detector. (Or possibly a frog exaggerator.)
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:31 AM on February 16, 2010

Basically if your sarcasm is so bone-dry as to go completely undetected and requires a special series of indicators to make itself clear, then you have probably crossed the line from "wit" to "boor". As in, you are not communicating effectively in your chosen medium.

Good sarcasm is detectable and inclusive. Badly executed sarcasm becomes as a private joke that excludes others.

On the flip side of that, if you are inherently bad at detecting sarcasm, then maybe you should avoid responding to comments reflexively, instead waiting to see how others react to them first.

Why have a sarcastic font when people can just add at the end of their comment: "By the way, I AM BEING SARCASTIC.!" It basically serves the same purpose, from self-expression and humor-killing perspectives.
posted by hermitosis at 11:34 AM on February 16, 2010 [9 favorites]

I think this is a really good idea and people are not at all idiots for being unable to recognize sarcasm.
posted by Artw at 11:37 AM on February 16, 2010 [5 favorites]

Basically if your sarcasm is so bone-dry as to go completely undetected and requires a special series of indicators to make itself clear, then you have probably crossed the line from "wit" to "boor". As in, you are not communicating effectively in your chosen medium.

Good sarcasm is detectable and inclusive. Badly executed sarcasm becomes as a private joke that excludes others.

On the flip side of that, if you are inherently bad at detecting sarcasm, then maybe you should avoid responding to comments reflexively, instead waiting to see how others react to them first.

Why have a sarcastic font when people can just add at the end of their comment: "By the way, I AM BEING SARCASTIC.!" It basically serves the same purpose, from self-expression and humor-killing perspectives.
posted by hermitosis at 11:34 AM on February 16

Great comment, bro. Really great. Cutting-edge. Should get lots of faves.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:38 AM on February 16, 2010 [3 favorites]

..._...|..__________ __________, ,
....../ `---___________---- _____|]
...../_==o;;;;;;;;__ _____.:/
.....), ---.(_(__) /
....// (..) ), ----"
...//___//
..//___// ..put this gun on your profile if
.//___// ..you wanna shot your princiepel or some 1
posted by Damn That Television at 11:42 AM on February 16, 2010 [8 favorites]

If you're not clever enough to convey your feelings without some kind of special indicator, I'd really rather you not try in the first place. :-)
posted by Rory Marinich at 12:02 PM on February 16, 2010 [2 favorites]

Why is it so painful to read left-leaning text?

It looks like the text is physically trying to escape the sentence. Like that one scene in every Scooby Doo episode where Scooby and Shaggy are trying so hard to escape, they run in place for a second and make that funny noise.
posted by muddgirl at 12:04 PM on February 16, 2010 [20 favorites]

That is the best comment ever.
posted by cashman at 12:07 PM on February 16, 2010

Scooby and Shaggy are trying so hard to escape, they run in place for a second and make that funny noise. (muddgirl)

Does anyone know what's used to make that sound effect?
posted by ocherdraco at 12:13 PM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

make that funny noise.

Bongo feet, the amen break of the chiptune scene.
posted by zamboni at 12:18 PM on February 16, 2010 [16 favorites]

bongoes!
posted by oneirodynia at 12:20 PM on February 16, 2010

For MeFites a SINCERE punctuation mark might be more useful than a SARCASM mark. Special new punctuation should be for the outliers not the default.
posted by Babblesort at 12:35 PM on February 16, 2010 [4 favorites]

Bongo feet, the amen break of the chiptune scene.

I'm surprised that I'm surprised.
posted by invitapriore at 12:41 PM on February 16, 2010

What if I don't know whether I'm being sarcastic or not? (This happens to me more than you might think. This very comment is one example.)
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:50 PM on February 16, 2010

> the amen break of the chiptune scene.

Barcore? Scoobycore? Does every music scene have to be a core of some kind? Is this going to lead to sarcasticore?
posted by ardgedee at 12:51 PM on February 16, 2010

Sarcasm doesn't need marking. If it does, you're doing it wrong.

Wait, are you people being sarcastic about this?
posted by chairface at 12:55 PM on February 16, 2010

manticore?
posted by unSane at 12:55 PM on February 16, 2010 [2 favorites]

Actually the Manticore is pretty effin' hardcore, so a hardcore Manticore would be, wow.
posted by unSane at 12:57 PM on February 16, 2010

Bongo feet, the amen break of the chiptune scene.

Once every so often, I am suddenly reminded of why I love the internet so. It's usually a sudden awareness of something that radiates awesomeness, and the violence of the impact causes me to literally laugh out loud, tear up, or spit coffee. This was one of those moments.
posted by 1f2frfbf at 12:57 PM on February 16, 2010

This entire topic is so native english speaker/culture centric it's disgusting.
posted by spicynuts at 12:58 PM on February 16, 2010

I'm sorry...not the topic, the backlash.
posted by spicynuts at 12:59 PM on February 16, 2010

Barcore? Scoobycore? Does every music scene have to be a core of some kind?

If only there were some kind of scandal then we could have a coregate.
posted by slogger at 1:06 PM on February 16, 2010

Great comment, bro. Really great. Cutting-edge. Should get lots of faves.

I always know when Optimus is being sarcastic, because he says "bro" or "brah."

I nominate bro as the new sarcasm indicator.
posted by shmegegge at 1:16 PM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

This is a bad suggestion and you are a bad person for suggesting it and you should feel bad.
posted by GuyZero at 1:30 PM on February 16, 2010 [2 favorites]

I nominate bro as the new sarcasm indicator.

I'm going to make the sockpuppet Broey Spacek and post all my sarcastic shit on that account, instead.
posted by defenestration at 1:32 PM on February 16, 2010

Definitely go with bro. If brah, all of the dialogue in Dog The Bounty Hunter will seem really twisted.

"You want some help getting your life back together, brah?"
"I need help, Dog. What's with your tone?"
"What tone, brah? I'm being sincere."
"Stop it! My life is falling apart before my eyes."
"I'm really sorry to hear that, brah."
posted by SpiffyRob at 1:35 PM on February 16, 2010

Are the proponents of a sarcasm indicator the same people who speak sarcastically in real life like this?
posted by shakespeherian at 1:38 PM on February 16, 2010

This entire topic is so native english speaker/culture centric it's disgusting.

Sarcasm is only in English? I don't think there is anything specific to English about this, native or otherwise.
posted by kingbenny at 1:45 PM on February 16, 2010

Sarcastic chat
posted by never used baby shoes at 1:51 PM on February 16, 2010

Way to not use preview, never used baby shoes (/HAMBURGER)
posted by never used baby shoes at 1:52 PM on February 16, 2010

Oh my what an original thread, goshers.
posted by The Whelk at 1:53 PM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

Heh. That's as good as any comment to push past 10k favorites with.

I went back and faved the one about buying 100 dildos instead.I think I just missed it though.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:12 PM on February 16, 2010 [2 favorites]

I pushed him over the edge, I am proud to say.

Although the shifting landscape of favorite retractions and account closings might allow someone else the honor.
posted by dirtdirt at 2:20 PM on February 16, 2010

I removed one of my older favorites and rigged the whole thing!
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:32 PM on February 16, 2010

It's a trap!
posted by The Whelk at 2:39 PM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

<scilati>Exactly the feature this site is lacking.</scilati>
posted by hangashore at 2:40 PM on February 16, 2010

Hmmm me and Greg Nog reached 10k within days of each other ...COINCIDENCE?!
posted by The Whelk at 2:45 PM on February 16, 2010

Did you two get your gold-plated watches yet?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:04 PM on February 16, 2010

Secret Rings.
posted by The Whelk at 3:06 PM on February 16, 2010

"Basically if your sarcasm is so bone-dry as to go completely undetected and requires a special series of indicators to make itself clear, then you have probably crossed the line from "wit" to "boor". As in, you are not communicating effectively in your chosen medium.

Good sarcasm is detectable and inclusive. Badly executed sarcasm becomes as a private joke that excludes others."

I must beg to disagree, good Sir. Well executed sarcasm is essentially a private joke, since it's a form of humor that is typically employed to make others look foolish and isn't very polite. But if, say, one simply speaks their mind without intent of malice and others happen to find it funny, then hurrah. Humor by stealth. In contrast, boorishness is when one attempts to control social norms through overt humiliation by way of sarcasm. IE: snark. Not that snark is always a bad thing, as some people and things quite deserve it. But it is a blunt instrument and can easily be overused.

As to the topic of this thread, I should think that applying a label to sarcasm destroys it utterly and renders any humorous content invalid.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:10 PM on February 16, 2010

Yeah but on the other hand, I am defenseless against Big bird.
posted by The Whelk at 3:11 PM on February 16, 2010

"Whelk" chowder is a disconcerting dark green.

in other news, I just discovered that there is such thing as a DIRE WHELK, which sounds kind of scary.
posted by idiopath at 3:29 PM on February 16, 2010

I think the Dire Whelk is cute. Lookit wittle him eat still living animals! awwww.
posted by The Bizzaro Whelk at 3:33 PM on February 16, 2010

Well executed sarcasm is essentially a private joke, since it's a form of humor that is typically employed to make others look foolish and isn't very polite.

Well, I think there's a lot of scope for where and how sarcasm is deployed. That's too pat and dark a description. Which is not to say that elements of the above aren't often in play, but I don't think that captures the whole of the thing.

It's a given, for one, that it's meant to be understood by someone in the audience; whether it's intended to be understood only by a portion of those attending to a conversation or by everyone is a matter of context. Sarcasm can be used exclusively, to explicitly or implicitly shun someone in a social setting, but it can also be used inclusively to include that person in a jocular critique of the situation.

And whether it's meant to make someone specifically look foolish or just to call attention to some dissonance between what one might say or feel about a situation/statement/etc and what the sarcastrar actually feels is also up for grabs. Certainly there's the possibility of intending to directly mock someone for their speech or actions through sarcastic rebuke, but it's just as possible to use it as a means of broaching the subject of some sort of conflict or critical issue raised by the speech or action itself, without malice toward the speaker/actor.

Sarcasm: not necessarily a dick move.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:34 PM on February 16, 2010

Oh cortex you're so thoughtful and considerate about things.
posted by The Whelk at 3:36 PM on February 16, 2010

backwards handwriting is what the crazy people use,

Apropos of nothing, I've been doing an experiment for the last couple of weeks where I'm training myself to write in mirror image. I've always been able to do it, but the writing looked sort of clumsy and forced and it took me a a bit longer backwards than forwards.

With practice, I'm happy to report that I can now write nearly as fast in reverse as I can going forward and it looks, more or less, like my own handwriting.

This is awesome because 1.) it means that I am crazy (sweet!) and 2.) it really freaks people out in meetings for some reason.
posted by quin at 3:40 PM on February 16, 2010

Thank you for including me in that critique of the conflict between earnest discursive analysis and casual social sparring, The Whelk. I really, really appreciate it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:40 PM on February 16, 2010

you're welcome.
posted by The Whelk at 3:41 PM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

Does every music scene have to be a core of some kind?

Only those which are not -steps.
posted by pompomtom at 4:01 PM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

Corestep is actually an exercise program.
posted by Artw at 4:04 PM on February 16, 2010

I was really into corestep before the scene got taken over by posers.
posted by Babblesort at 4:07 PM on February 16, 2010

Dammit Artw. Oh preview wherefore wert thou?
posted by Babblesort at 4:07 PM on February 16, 2010

And stepcore is a terrible, terrible disease.
posted by shakespeherian at 4:09 PM on February 16, 2010

Tatercore is about, well ...if you have to ask.
posted by The Whelk at 4:09 PM on February 16, 2010

Well, at least I finally know what this stupid exclusive-in-joke 'hamburger' stuff has been about. I occasionally wondered, idly.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:09 PM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

Taterstep is really painful.
posted by Artw at 4:13 PM on February 16, 2010

"while HAMBURGER has started to gain traction"

To my complete and utter dismay, I might add.
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 4:15 PM on February 16, 2010

Hamburgstep takes place only in Germany.
posted by The Whelk at 4:23 PM on February 16, 2010

GERMAN HAMBURGCORE MASSSSSIVE! THIS ONES GOING TO FUUUUUUUCK YOOOOOUUUUU UUUUUUP!!!! stomp-stomp-stompa-stomps tish-tish-tish-tishtishtishtish-tssssssk!
posted by Artw at 4:40 PM on February 16, 2010 [3 favorites]

Riviera was "a product of the rubble rings that fringe the radioactive core of old Bonn."

Radioactive-rubble-core later was riffed on and expanded by Vitaly Chernobyl and The Meltdowns as Ukrainian nuclear fuzz-grunge.
posted by Babblesort at 5:00 PM on February 16, 2010

Not that I support this idea, but we could redefine the tag as "sarcasm" and use CSS to render it as non-strikethrough'd Comic Sans, or something.

Wow, the "S" tag works! I've been typing "strike" this whole time. Now that I think of it maybe it wasn't MeFi where the S tag didn't work. Damn. Anyway we could try, ah screw it, I take it span isn't allowed in comments. How about blink?
posted by MikeMc at 5:05 PM on February 16, 2010

Reverse italics have been around for a long time. I've seen them on old gravestones, frequently mixed with right-leaning italics (example).

I have no idea what the significance is, but I'm pretty sure it's not to convey sarcasm.
posted by adamrice at 5:14 PM on February 16, 2010 [2 favorites]

I've seen them on old gravestones, frequently mixed with right-leaning italics (example).

Fascinating. Cheers.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:16 PM on February 16, 2010

Apropos of nothing, I've been doing an experiment for the last couple of weeks where I'm training myself to write in mirror image. I've always been able to do it, but the writing looked sort of clumsy and forced and it took me a a bit longer backwards than forwards.

In a similar vein, read a book upside-down and out loud (a good way to read to your kids, when they're sitting in front of you, so they can see the pictures.) At some point during the book, you'll stop seeing the letters as upside-down and start seeing them as non-letters, yet you can still read them -- in fact, read them more easily, provided you're reading out loud.

at least if your brain works like mine does
posted by davejay at 5:17 PM on February 16, 2010

I have no idea what the significance is, but I'm pretty sure it's not to convey sarcasm.

Unless the significance is that he died falling down several flights of stairs in which case it's scarcastilicious.
posted by quin at 5:23 PM on February 16, 2010

"Mind your step"

[/Bond]
posted by Artw at 5:25 PM on February 16, 2010

at least if your brain works like mine does

Apparently it does. That's some freaky shit right there.
posted by quin at 5:25 PM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

Sorry to keep referencing CASE NIGHTMARE THATCHER, but when she pops it her gravestone is totally going to require some backwards italicizing.
posted by Artw at 5:26 PM on February 16, 2010

you'll stop seeing the letters as upside-down and start seeing them as non-letters, yet you can still read them

I remember watching an episode of Ripley's Believe It or Not as a kid, where an experiment was done with people wearing glasses with special lenses that flip the world upside-down. There was some disorientation at first, but the subjects got used to it, eventually.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:32 PM on February 16, 2010

the sarcastrar

This is a superhero, right?
posted by invitapriore at 5:49 PM on February 16, 2010

Actually, I'm being sarcastic. The Sarcastrar must be a supervillain, statistically speaking. You don't see the definite article nearly as much in hero names.
posted by invitapriore at 5:51 PM on February 16, 2010

No thank you, Rich Gazarian.
posted by Kwine at 5:54 PM on February 16, 2010

If sarcastrar doesn't enter the MetaFilter lexicon I'll eat my hamburger.
posted by lapsangsouchong at 7:08 PM on February 16, 2010

Technically Sarcastrar is more of an anti-hero.
posted by Artw at 7:11 PM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

I seriously considered "sacastrator" as a candidate nonce-word but dismissed it for reasons that became obvious to me after a couple seconds.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:20 PM on February 16, 2010

sarcastrar is totally gonna save those guys, really.
posted by The Whelk at 8:13 PM on February 16, 2010 [2 favorites]

What's this about 100 dildos?
posted by cjorgensen at 8:17 PM on February 16, 2010

Dildos in the air, Dildos in the sea, dildos for your grandma and dildos for you and me.
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 PM on February 16, 2010

Ok, but then imagine if someone allegedly applied the described sarcasm tag, but then wrote something that was actually-specifically entirely what they meant, would this break the sarcasm barrier in intensity? Or no?

Like, this could be the creation point of a new era and form of sarcasm? The birth of the double negative semiotic sarcastic.
Brave on, New world.
Only then you would have people who aren't happy with just one layer of sarcasm. (the "oh, yeah, I just loooove valentines day" single) then anti hipsters, hip-ronically double negative sarcastically mocking the term while embracing the concepts mores. Then double-double negatively semiotic sarcasm'ing... and then on the T-shirts... where would it end?while winking.
Sorry, seeing backwards Italics made me black out for a second there. I wonder now just where are those letters GOING?

I think it would also be an interesting thing to think about a signifier symbolizing that one is "speaking" while trying to put oneself in the mind of another, or otherwise trying to understand and parse someone Else's thinking--thoughts which lead them to an alternate point of view from ones self on some particular issue. so that both might end up with a more full understanding of the others' thoughts. (not for/or against implementing any different notations.ist. more curious for something like a book, or script notation.)
posted by infinite intimation at 10:53 PM on February 16, 2010

Dildos in the air, Dildos in the sea, dildos for your grandma and dildos for you and me.

Sshh... I'm trying to watch figure skating.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:20 PM on February 16, 2010

You know, I've been asking for a passive-aggressive font for months just using the Contact form because I have to ask if it's really necessary to make a big scene with a MetaTalk post, while meanwhile there have been something like three posts about sarcasm indicators, which is fine, you're free to talk about whatever you want to, I don't expect anyone to pay any attention to my needs.
posted by nanojath at 11:35 PM on February 16, 2010 [2 favorites]

"while HAMBURGER has started to gain traction"
To my complete and utter dismay, I might add.
You're not the only one. There's another 10 points off the required IQ to fit in here.
posted by dg at 4:00 AM on February 17, 2010

Does all this discussion of sarcasm make us sarcasticians?
posted by slogger at 6:51 AM on February 17, 2010

If you're fashionable about it then you're a Sarcastinista
posted by The Whelk at 6:58 AM on February 17, 2010 [1 favorite]

I hope this doesn't devolve into sarcastician violence.
posted by The Whelk at 7:00 AM on February 17, 2010

Can we have it so every time someone writes something stupid, it's in Comic Sans?
posted by dunkadunc at 8:15 AM on February 17, 2010

One side feels an aching need for a punctuation mark; the other feels that dry sarcastic wit must remain unmarked. The solution is very simply a straight-faced emoticon which continually raises one eyebrow in a knowing (but not obtrusive or flippant) fashion:

':|
posted by sleevener at 9:08 AM on February 17, 2010

Man, that's one of the more straightforward origin stories I've heard.
posted by The Whelk at 10:00 AM on February 17, 2010

Man, that's one of the more straightforward origin stories I've heard.
posted by The Whelk

But where'd he get his web shooters? America wants, nay, needs to know.
posted by haveanicesummer at 11:44 AM on February 17, 2010

What's the Venn diagram of dildos and vibrators? Are all phallic looking vibrators also dildos?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:45 AM on February 17, 2010

A Dildo is any kind of phallus replacement device. A vibrator is either a dildo that vibrates OR a stimulator of some kind that vibrates.

Why yes I did used to work at a sex shop.
posted by The Whelk at 11:51 AM on February 17, 2010 [2 favorites]

The Venn diagram of dildos and vibrators is why we can't have the image tag back.
Man, that Venn drew some filthy stuff.
posted by Hardcore Poser at 1:55 PM on February 17, 2010 [1 favorite]

RELEVANT
posted by litleozy at 4:42 PM on February 17, 2010

I hope this doesn't devolve into sarcastician violence.

Some things are sarcastrosanct. Any deviation from the One Wry Path will be met with swift and terrible justice.
posted by adamrice at 4:58 PM on February 17, 2010 [1 favorite]