Unreal

March 12, 2010 5:07 AM

The homophobia being expressed in this thread is sad and disturbing.
posted by zarq to Etiquette/Policy at 5:07 AM (698 comments total)

I was wondering if that was going to get an fpp.
posted by rtha at 5:15 AM on March 12, 2010

I really wish our society hadn't created this idea that women get it on with other women to gratify men. It's stupid and sexist.
posted by ocherdraco at 5:18 AM on March 12, 2010 [27 favorites]

Share some examples will you?
posted by wheelieman at 5:18 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

There's been a lot of LULZy teenage lesbian comments in that thread. It's pretty bizarre, like you mention a lesbian and a certain number of men think it's just hysterical to use it as a pretext for sub-Benny Hill wink winking, nudge nudging, and say-no-more-ing.

I suppose there's a place for that. Pretty sure that thread isn't it.
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:21 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Here you go, wheelieman:

She looks like an attention seeking LUG to me.

Prom Lesbians: a feature, not a bug

Need more?
posted by MrMoonPie at 5:24 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I don't know if it's homophobia per se or just tone deafness but yeah it's inappropriate. I don't think it's deletion-worthy personally but I'm glad it was called out in the FPP and is being called out here.
posted by Skorgu at 5:24 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'd say the LUG one is explicitly homophobic. It dismisses her sexuality, and blames the school's reaction on a girl seeking attention.
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:27 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

Yea, AZ, that stuff was just sad and uncalled for, I agree. And in the Blue of all places. This isnt just Boyzone, its homophobezone. Thats just not right
posted by wheelieman at 5:29 AM on March 12, 2010

Thank you, AZ. I'm on my Blackberry, and it took forever to write this FPP. It would be a true pain in the ass to try to link to that (and MuffinMan's "carpet muncher" (WTF?!) comment.)
posted by zarq at 5:29 AM on March 12, 2010

The LUG one and this one both made me go "fuck you."
posted by rtha at 5:30 AM on March 12, 2010

I'm probably going to regret this, but... what's a LUG?
posted by handee at 5:33 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

The homophobia being expressed in this thread is sad and disturbing.

agreed

countdown to "but i was/they were just making a joke - lighten up!" defense: 3, 2,...
posted by jammy at 5:33 AM on March 12, 2010

The LUG one is not only offensive but also irrelevant. Even if she's only experimenting with girls and not "really" a lesbian, it's still illegal to prevent her and her girlfriend from attending prom. And it's still reactionary and absurd to cancel/privatize prom to get around around it.
posted by DU at 5:33 AM on March 12, 2010 [11 favorites]

Handee: "Lesbian until graduation"
posted by headspace at 5:35 AM on March 12, 2010

"disturbing"

So I'm all "Hoo boy, there's some horrible shit going on in there," rubbing my hands together, leaving my reclined position and putting all four legs of my chair back on the ground so the utter decimation going on in that thread doesn't disturb me a cracked skull. I take a breath, I click!


She looks like an attention seeking LUG to me.

Prom Lesbians: a feature, not a bug


That's it?
posted by floam at 5:36 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

I don't think it's deletion-worthy personally but I'm glad it was called out in the FPP and is being called out here.

Seconded--let the offensive comments stand. I want to know who says such things.
posted by MrMoonPie at 5:36 AM on March 12, 2010 [14 favorites]

Yeah, honestly, I'm usually the asshole laughing at and favoriting the sophomoric in-poor-taste shit in threads, but this one was actually kinda monocle-shattering. It's like somebody copied-and-pasted the Fark thread.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:38 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'm gonna call Lance Armstrong (he lives in Autin) and see if he'll go over to SXSW and wake up the mods.
posted by fixedgear at 5:41 AM on March 12, 2010

That's it?

Isn't it more than enough?
posted by ocherdraco at 5:42 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

I think there is a distinction to be made between heavy-duty hate and what we're seeing here, which is still not okay, but hardly 'disturbing.' The prevailing culture in these States of ours is still one where gay rights and respect for queer culture is in really odd place. Many people (myself included) are completely pro-whatever-your-sex/gender/etc-preference-is intellectually, but it really is difficult to untrain yourself to make offhand remarks that you can realize after the fact play on this prevalent culture of unacceptance, especially if that culture is what you experienced/ what was encouraged for much of your formative life (which I believe is often the case with those of us who are not queer, and thus did not have to deal with such issues as a core part of our being). I used the word 'gay' in a disparaging sense until I was nearly out of high school. It took me a long time to completely cut it out of my vocabulary.
It's a matter of self-awareness, of the difference between intellect and impulse, and it's something that people should work towards, so i'm pro this callout, it's part of the self-awareness thing, but (for the most part) we're not dealing with violent homophobia here, so, y'know, perspective and that.
posted by The Esteemed Doctor Bunsen Honeydew at 5:42 AM on March 12, 2010 [15 favorites]

Floam, it is offensive to a lot of people on here and labeling people because of their sexuality is just wrong. This isnt what MeFi is, nor what it should be.
posted by wheelieman at 5:42 AM on March 12, 2010

Given the posting history of the LUG commenter (who appears concerned with racism, sexism, and homophobia from other comments), I'm guessing it was a sarcastic comment. Tone deaf maybe, but sarcastic.
posted by BrotherCaine at 5:44 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I was a bit shocked, too.

What really disturbed me wasn't the direct homophobia, but the basic sexism. The homophobia seems to be an ugly byproduct. (Not that that makes it better, mind you.)

All the crap comments seem to share the the idea that lesbians exist for male pleasure, or that she's just doing it for attention.

Do you think there would be as much wink-wink-nudge-nudge garbage if it were a male couple?
posted by generichuman at 5:45 AM on March 12, 2010 [8 favorites]

No need for this MeTa. It is always best to confront bigots immediately and right where they are.

(Although I did get to learn what a "LUG" is. Didn't want give the person who said that the chance to say it twice.)
posted by three blind mice at 5:46 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Both things can happen - the confronting immediately and the meTa. It's not either/or.
posted by rtha at 5:48 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Floam, it is offensive to a lot of people on here and labeling people because of their sexuality is just wrong

My only comment was they seemed more eyeroll-worthy than "Unreal". Although, I kind of want to eek some argument out of you — is what's offensive hear really just that people were labeled according to their sexuality? I think the matter in which the sexuality was brought down to just being a mere treatsie for the guys was the part that was actually mean, not some non politically correct or premature labeling.
posted by floam at 5:50 AM on March 12, 2010

No need for this MeTa. It is always best to confront bigots immediately and right where they are.
No, this is actually what MeTa was made for: for talking about things like blatant/less-blatant homophobia in a Metafilter thread without turning the thread itself into a big shitfight, and leaving it to the conversation at hand, of the posted comment. Meta topic -->Meta Talk.
posted by The Esteemed Doctor Bunsen Honeydew at 5:50 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

Yes, the sexism, the unthinking insults. I don't like to call insults "homophobia", because the root homophobia is often so hidden from the insulter, so buried in hir psyche that it's ineffective criticism.

Make us look bad. I know we talk like we're better than that on MeTa, but not all of us are.
posted by kalessin at 5:50 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

There was no way that thread was going to be able to be anything other than a "fuck those guys" thread with all those crappy comments heading it. I deleted a bunch of them [and follow-ups] and people can start over in that thread and see if they can do better.

That said, a one-off link with a slightly lulzy description maybe wasn't the best way to introduce this really touchy incident. People see it and are like "oh, is it lulz time?" and then comment accordingly.

The comments weren't removed for being offensive per se, but because of our general approach that threadshitting early in threads on touchy topics is considered non-conducive to decent threads and is removed accordingly.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:50 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

BLARG s/hear/here/
posted by floam at 5:51 AM on March 12, 2010

Yes, it actually is disturbing that every time lesbians are discussed, the term "carpet muncher," for instance, has to come up. It adds boyzone on top of denigration of gay people. The fact that people who would instantly realize that "fudgepacker" or "shirtlifter" is a slur can toss off "carpet muncher" with a puerile titter as a harmless joke says a lot.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:51 AM on March 12, 2010 [8 favorites]

That's it?

Nope. There was another a comment which has been axed, which said something along the lines of "Why are women who like women named after an island? They should be called [stupid slang], or [insulting slang], or [slang that's trying to be funny]." The comment had nothing to do with teenage lesbians who wanted to go to prom.
posted by 23skidoo at 5:51 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

That's it?

What? You were looking for more?

Many of the non-supportive remarks in that thread were just in lulz-y poor taste. A little of that is to be expected from the internet and I suppose, tolerated. But the LUG remark needs to go. I've had less offensive comments of my own deleted.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:52 AM on March 12, 2010

it really is difficult to untrain yourself to make offhand remarks

Well, then like the individual in my 700-person undergraduate lecture who dropped the n-word without any context, we can consider this a training exercise.
posted by Adam_S at 5:54 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

"Carpet Muncher", "labiaphiles", "Chicks with metaphorical dicks", "beaver wranglers" or "LUG" were other WTF comments.

They're still right there in my rebuttal comment. Which now makes no damn sense but I'm ok with that.

Some days I'm glad I've been more or less online since the mid 80s. All that practicing reading really stupid shit on BBSes and usenet has paid off fairly handsomely in a distinct lack of defenestrated computers or monitors.
posted by loquacious at 5:56 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

What? You were looking for more?

Heck yeah. I enjoy car crash videos as well. And people-watching angry strangers. And police officers responding to basically anything. I couldn't imagine being any other way.
posted by floam at 5:57 AM on March 12, 2010

Jess, you're welcome to delete my rebuttal as well. If the thread is pared and it's superfluous I'd say go for it, but I don't care either way. Your call.
posted by loquacious at 5:58 AM on March 12, 2010

The LUG and carpet muncher comments were appallingly stupid, and disappointing to see at Metafilter, but personally, I found this one (which someone called out upthread) to be amusing and lighthearted and, well, tongue-in-cheek friendly:

Prom Lesbians: a feature, not a bug

I dunno, just seems that way to me. I could be wrong. I guess some folks found that one beyond-the-pale offensive, and if so, well, who am I to say they're wrong? I guess any kind of jokey comment in a thread that's going like that one is probably not a good idea...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:58 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

I don't know if it's good or bad that I don't even recognize a lot of these slurs. I had to look up "LUG" and I have no idea what a "shirtlifter" might be.
posted by DU at 5:58 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Thanks for this call-out. I was reading through the thread and trying to figure out why having a Linux User Group at a high-school party would be a cause for concern.
posted by Dr Dracator at 6:02 AM on March 12, 2010 [17 favorites]

Yeah, I'd never heard of LUG til now, either. And indeed, what is a shirtlifter? Inquiring minds want to know.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:03 AM on March 12, 2010

Heck yeah. I enjoy car crash videos as well. And people-watching angry strangers. And police officers responding to basically anything. I couldn't imagine being any other way.

My new teeth-grinding anti-favorite YouTube search terms is "removed from flight" or "removed from plane" and similar. The best part about the "removed from plane" ones is the whole plane applauding when TSA or airport cops haul some drunk and/or belligerent fuckwit off the plane.

"Angry customer" is a good one, too.
posted by loquacious at 6:03 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

I can see a charitable reading of "Prom Lesbians: a feature, not a bug" as in "I wish my school had been inclusive enough to allow same-sex couples" rather than "LULZ, look at the girl-on-girl action". On the other hand, "Chicks with metaphorical dicks"? "labiophiles"? LUG?

Let's just get this straight for the people who apparently just came in from FARK -- lesbians don't want to have a dick. Not yours, not one of their own. They just want to be left alone to love who they love, which happens to be Not Men. Does it bother you that much that they don't want you in bed that you have to pretend they're there for your gratification?

I know I'm wasting my breath, just as I am wasting my breath when I see LOLFattiez and LOLChristians and LOLRednecks -- I keep forgetting it's "Okay" to make fun of groups that Aren't Like Us.

But it's not -- each slam adds to the pool of pain that people -- all of us -- have to wade through each day. I teach college -- I deal with the consequences people face in wading through that pool of pain every day. I have students who have been bullied and shamed as children for being who they are (gay, overweight, legally blind, dyslexic, too black, not black enough, not wearing designer labels, you name it). At 20, they haven't gone through therapy or developed the resilience I have developed as a result of therapy. I refer at least two students every semester to therapy. I have lost one student to suicide. I advise the GLBT group on campus and watch their posters get torn or defaced again and again.

I no longer read FARK because I guess I have a "thin skin" -- I hate to see people labeled and abused. Please don't make the Blue anything like FARK.
posted by lleachie at 6:03 AM on March 12, 2010 [74 favorites]

The comments weren't removed for being offensive per se, but because of our general approach that threadshitting early in threads on touchy topics is considered non-conducive to decent threads and is removed accordingly.

Fair enough, jessamyn, but I'm with Mr. MoonPie:

Seconded--let the offensive comments stand. I want to know who says such things.

So the bigots who made those comments now have their slates wiped clean.

Sometimes a fight - however unpleasant - is necessary. Men who heap abuse on women in my presence get my foot up their ass. That's the way my daddy raised me.
posted by three blind mice at 6:05 AM on March 12, 2010

it really is difficult to untrain yourself to make offhand remarks

I agree with your general sentiment that there is a difference between people who are using the context of a story about lesbians going to prom to make corny jokes, and people who are using the context of a story about lesbians going to prom to make hateful statements.

But it's not like Metafilter is a dive bar, or the office break room or something. We're not having an oral conversation, we're having a written one. When you* type something in, before you hit that Post Comment button, hit the Preview button. Then read it, and ask yourself if anyone would have a good reason to be upset about some offhand comment being made for lulz.

It may be hard to train yourself to not WANT to make offhand remarks, but it's superduper easy to train yourself to not have them appear as Metafilter comments. Preview.


*Not you specifically. Anyone really. Everyone.
posted by 23skidoo at 6:05 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

Thanks for the cleanup Jessamyn. Stupid is as stupid does, I suppose, but it was disappointing to see.
posted by Forktine at 6:08 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

23skidoo, TEACH!

NOT HAMBURGER
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:09 AM on March 12, 2010

I think there is a distinction to be made between heavy-duty hate and what we're seeing here, which is still not okay, but hardly 'disturbing.'

Sorry, sir. Disturbing. This is a (fairly brave) kid we're talking about. I'd bet she knew she was going to get resistance & prepared somehow to deal with it, so I'm not suggesting a candlelight vigil or anything, but the jump from the actual story to HOT GIRL ON GIRL ACTION comment style was head-spinning.

it really is difficult to untrain yourself to make offhand remarks

Maybe the reminder under the edit box should say "Note: Don't be a dick."
posted by mintcake! at 6:10 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

23skidoo, I totally agree.
I mean, I kind of wish I had previewed my earlier comment, even. And it's not even a lulzy one-liner. Just some terrible grammar happening in there. So many commas!
posted by The Esteemed Doctor Bunsen Honeydew at 6:11 AM on March 12, 2010

"Note: Don't be a dick."

Heh.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:12 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

(So pretty much what 23skidoo said on non-preview. Damn my tiny bladder.)
posted by mintcake! at 6:12 AM on March 12, 2010

Prom Lesbians: a feature, not a bug

Yeah flapjax, I sort of chucked when I read that until I (once again) became embarrassed at myself for so doing.

The idea of lesbians being an object of hetero-male fantasy ("a feature") is just repulsive. But I did chuckle. Trying to rid myself of my 12-year old sense of humor appears to be a life-long project.
posted by three blind mice at 6:13 AM on March 12, 2010

Thanks for this call-out. I was reading through the thread and trying to figure out why having a Linux User Group at a high-school party would be a cause for concern.

It's too bad about the stupid posts in that thread, but this post here made my morning.
posted by hiteleven at 6:18 AM on March 12, 2010

okay loq, I removed your comment. If you want the text of it to repost the parts that weren't quoting now-deleted comments, let me know.

So the bigots who made those comments now have their slates wiped clean.

This is one of those tricky policy issues. On the one hand, yeah, their shitty comments aren't still there and people can't make a mental note "Oh that user made that crappy comment in the lesbian prom thread" On the other hand, we know who they are and if this sort of drive-by threadshitting becomes a habit, it's a data point that we use to further work on that sort of thing. And maybe that thread, which is what is the important part, will be able to exist without it being a bunch of people yelling at those four people.

Really this is active policy. Threadshitting that is seriously derailing threads often gets removed, especially once it's gotten to metatalk and flagged a few dozen times. We can talk about whether that's a good idea or not, but it's how we've been doing things for a while now. With very few exceptions, serial threadshitters get talked to, dealt with, or otherwise managed.

There are a few longtime users who have a sort of eternal good day/bad day thing going on that may seem to be exceptions to that rule, but there's really no one on the site who regularly posts sexist/homophobic/racist stuff who is able to both continue to be on the site and post like that.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:19 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

Do you think there would be as much wink-wink-nudge-nudge garbage if it were a male couple?

As a straight women, I can honestly say that the sight of two guys dancing together is not an invitation to fantasize, it is more like an invitation not to fantasize.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:20 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

I suppose it's all about context, but I don't read "Prom Lesbians: a feature, not a bug" as voyeuristic hetero-male fantasy. It's well known that diversity is an oft-touted and oft-sought "feature" in companies and universities. Being able to claim that your university has 12% lesbians, or your company has benefits for same-sex couples promotes a culture of diversity that extends beyond the immediate beneficiaries.

Thus it seems that claiming Prom Lesbians as a "feature" rather than a "bug" is not even close to the voyeuristic. It's not like there was a sign saying, "Itawamba County Agricultural High School Prom! Featuring Lesbians!" That would be voyeurism and exploitation, but the "feature not a bug" statement seems pretty normal.
posted by explosion at 6:23 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

What really disturbed me wasn't the direct homophobia, but the basic sexism. The homophobia seems to be an ugly byproduct.

Homophobia is always a byproduct of sexism.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:30 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

Jaltcoh: By that do you mean that sexism always creates homophobia as a byproduct, or do you mean that homophobia is exclusively a byproduct, dependent, of sexism?

Both seem false to me.
posted by floam at 6:32 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

I suppose it's all about context, but I don't read "Prom Lesbians: a feature, not a bug" as voyeuristic hetero-male fantasy.

That reading of the comment is so exorbitantly charitable as to sound like a hopeful attempt at spin. Could that be what was meant? In some universes. Is it likely what was meant? Doesn't pass the smell test.
posted by Miko at 6:39 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

The idea of lesbians being an object of hetero-male fantasy ("a feature") is just repulsive

I think you are going too far there; it isn't repulsive it is human nature. Every man I've ever known has found lesbians sexually exciting and that is most definitely a feature not a bug-- I really believe that this has allowed some men to find homosexuality acceptable-- in other words it is the lesbians who are the "thin edge of the wedge."

Other than children, I don't see how we can rule entire groups as "off limits." Are you seriously suggesting that 16 year old boys should not be allowed to find the idea of lesbians exciting? What do you propose to do about it?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:40 AM on March 12, 2010 [12 favorites]

I've known lesbians who argued that "homophobia" is too general a phrase, at it is experienced differently by lesbians than by gays, with a massive dose of sexism added in with anti-lesbian homophobia. Although there is undoubtedly an element of sexism in anti-male gay homophobia, in that there is disgust at men for acting like a woman. Which, of course, they aren't (unless they are drag artists), but you try to explain that to a homophobe without getting your ass kicked.
posted by Astro Zombie at 6:42 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

it really is difficult to untrain yourself to make offhand remarks

It's difficult to do a lot of things. Yet people still manage to succeed.

"untraining yourself to make offhand remarks" can be one of them. No excuse.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:44 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I just replied here to uncanny and posted before his most recent comments got deleted, and now mine makes no sense. Delete, plz?

I'll bring the question here: uncanny - you can tell she's not a "real" lesbian? Based on what, exactly? The photo? So what do "real" lesbians look like?
posted by rtha at 6:46 AM on March 12, 2010

I dropped uncanny hengeman a note to say that if he wants to defend his LUG comment and the other stuff he said in-thread that was removed, here might be a good place to do it.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:48 AM on March 12, 2010

Every man I've ever known has found lesbians sexually exciting and that is most definitely a feature not a bug-

Setting aside the fact that it's highly unlikely that every man you've ever known has agreed with you on this (you'd have to know very few men, absolutely none who were gay whether or not you knew about it, and all with exactly the same set of turn-ons), even if this were true it would still be just as offensive to leap from a mention of a woman's sexual orientation in a news story to a statement of some random male's enjoyment of fantasies about her.
posted by Miko at 6:50 AM on March 12, 2010 [24 favorites]

As a straight women, I can honestly say that the sight of two guys dancing together is not an invitation to fantasize, it is more like an invitation not to fantasize.

Yeah, but I don't feel the need to bring it up every time I read a story about a gay guy. I recognize that my fantasies are personal, and can be hurtful and even oppressive to other people if expressed in the wrong environment.

Implying that a young lesbian fighting against a sexist and homophobic school policy does NOT need the added pressure of "Hubba hubba let me watch you make out."
posted by muddgirl at 6:55 AM on March 12, 2010 [15 favorites]

> The idea of lesbians being an object of hetero-male fantasy ("a feature") is just repulsive

I think you are going too far there; it isn't repulsive it is human nature.

I think, Secret Life of Gravy, the objection was more about the celebration of that fact rather than calling it for what it is, which is voyeurism.

....What? What else would you call "getting off on the idea of watching two other people have sex?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:56 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

MetaFilter: labeling people because of their sexuality is just wrong
||
MetaFilter: hetero-male fantasy is just repulsive
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 6:58 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

okay loq, I removed your comment. If you want the text of it to repost the parts that weren't quoting now-deleted comments, let me know.

Nah, it's cool. It's not my job to define what a lesbian is or isn't.

A few thousand down and only a few hundred thousand more more comments like that until I earn my first toaster.

And five toasters gets your named scrawled on the wall at Wild Side West.
posted by loquacious at 6:58 AM on March 12, 2010

As a straight women, I can honestly say that the sight of two guys dancing together is not an invitation to fantasize, it is more like an invitation not to fantasize.

I've known straight women who would strongly disagree with you. Well, maybe they wouldn't go as far as seeing "an invitation to fantasize," but they did find gay male sexuality fascinating.

I'm not trying to claim there's some equivalency to the way many straight men are fascinated by lesbians--there's obviously a huge difference in the way it's commodified for starters.
posted by hydrophonic at 6:59 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

I called her a LUG in the nicest possible way and it got deleted.

I rephrased my comment in an EVEN NICER possible way... and it got deleted.

Here's a popular comment from the thread that I think is apt: "and if you are going to have prom forum, it should be open to everyone, whether or not you have an approved date."

I thought maybe with a repost the Mods would have realised what a disgraceful deletion it was, but nuh. My even nicer repost got deleted.

I realise this is not the proper place to have an opinion ON THE ACTUAL SUBJECT but it appears I'm not allowed to have an opinion on The Blue. So for the third time: I question her motives.

…And I’d just like to add that the Mods normally do a great job. I’ve had 4-5 posts deleted that – in the cold light of five minutes later – I thought was a fair call.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 6:59 AM on March 12, 2010

I'm probably going to regret this, but... what's a LUG?

I didn't realize it meant anything other than "Linux users' group" and had no idea why everyone was getting so worked up.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 7:05 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

C'mere, you big lug!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:06 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

The LUG one is not only offensive but also irrelevant.

How so? That is my opinion. I think she seeks attention and she got her whole school prom shitcanned as a result.

Just an opinion, mind you.

I now realise there has nevar EVARR been an attention seeking teenage girl in the history of the universe. I don't know what came over me. So glad my non-homophobic opinion got deleted from The Blue. Twice.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:06 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

How is there any way of being "nice" when what you're doing is saying that the person really isn't who she says she is?

I'll ask again: Why do you think she's a LUG? How can you possibly fucking tell?
posted by rtha at 7:07 AM on March 12, 2010 [14 favorites]

I realise this is not the proper place to have an opinion ON THE ACTUAL SUBJECT

Can you express the opinion without using a slur, epithet, or stereotype?
posted by Miko at 7:11 AM on March 12, 2010 [19 favorites]

I think the problem is that whether or not guys get off on watching girls make out is really out of place in a civil rights issue such as this.

It'd be like (going back in time) digesting MLK's "I have a dream" speech and injecting discussion of whether or not blacks are good at basketball. Still sort of a weird discussion, but waaaay out of place and fairly offensive given the context.
posted by LordSludge at 7:13 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I think it's gotten a little lost in the shuffle, but props to odinsdream for calling out the regional bias too. Look, it's easy to get high and mighty about How Things Are Down There, but generalizations of that kind suck.
posted by kittyprecious at 7:14 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Every man I've ever known has found lesbians sexually exciting and that is most definitely a feature not a bug-

Setting aside the fact that it's highly unlikely that every man you've ever known has agreed with you on this (you'd have to know very few men, absolutely none who were gay whether or not you knew about it, and all with exactly the same set of turn-ons),

Ok, Miko, I'll change that to: every man I've ever known intimately. Feel better?

As a straight women, I can honestly say that the sight of two guys dancing together is not an invitation to fantasize, it is more like an invitation not to fantasize.

I've known straight women who would strongly disagree with you. Well, maybe they wouldn't go as far as seeing "an invitation to fantasize," but they did find gay male sexuality fascinating.

Which is why I used the word "I." I am most definitely NOT speaking for all women because I really don't know how other women feel about this. (I'm looking forward to asking my 72 year old mother about this later.) Me, I don't find it a turn off or a turn on...it has a sort of neutralizing effect. But I agree that you don't need to hear about my sexual fantasies in a thread about a lesbian schoolgirl fighting for equality. I just think we don't need to go overboard with our intolerance here.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:14 AM on March 12, 2010

I'm a drummer, and I'm here to tell you, THIS is a lug.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:14 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

LUG. Go me! An Australian educating dozens of well-read Americans on American slang.

Sorry to be dragging this out. I've done it all ass-about.

1. Made comment on The Blue.
2. I visit thread 4-5 hours later.
3. Comment deleted.
4. jessamyn says "try again."
5. I "try again" with a nicer sounding comment.
6. Comment deleted.
7. jessamyn says "take it to MetaTalk."
8. I immediately comment on MetaTalk.
9. Then I read the Metatalk comments and find my "LUG" opinion is HOMOPHOBIC ENEMY NUMBER ONE!
10. The fah?!
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:15 AM on March 12, 2010

I've known straight women who would strongly disagree with you. Well, maybe they wouldn't go as far as seeing "an invitation to fantasize," but they did find gay male sexuality fascinating.

I interpreted it to mean "I don't have to fantasize - it's RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME", but I could have interpreted it incorrectly.
posted by muddgirl at 7:15 AM on March 12, 2010

Gosh, can you be more dramatic about this? I mean, right now your drama level is, like, a 7. I'd like to see you bring it up to at LEAST a 9 before you flame out.
posted by muddgirl at 7:16 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

I now realise there has nevar EVARR been an attention seeking teenage girl in the history of the universe.

I don't think that's the issue, and focusing on whether you think this girl is lying about her sexuality because she craves attention is kind of silly since the issue is that the school cancelled a school function to ensure that everyone knew that they disapprove of homosexuality. Whether she is actually gay or not does not matter. The issue is the school's actions. Does that make sense? And, further, the constant refrain about lesbianism being trendy or edgy or popular is honestly demeaning to lesbians, because on what grounds are you attempting to adjudicate someone else's sexuality over and above what they have stated?

So, in summary:
1) You are ignoring the issue in order to insult someone
2) You are insulting someone
3) That constitutes a derail
posted by shakespeherian at 7:17 AM on March 12, 2010 [25 favorites]

10. The fah?!

The fah-que.
posted by gman at 7:18 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

How can you possibly fucking tell?

He can't. But he's got an opinion. Worth pointing out that the school administrators are the attention whores here. They're closing the prom, not the young woman in question.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:19 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

A lug
posted by fixedgear at 7:19 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Yesterday I had to lug my daughter's new desk all the way home on my back.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:19 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

I think she seeks attention and she got her whole school prom shitcanned as a result.

I think Rosa Parks was just an attention whore and created a whole lot of fuss over nothing.

(burger -- do I really need to add that?)
posted by LordSludge at 7:20 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

Well, yeah, he's got an opinion that was rightfully called out for being douchey, and now he can't even bring himself to defend it or back it up. So, you know, go uncanny!
posted by rtha at 7:21 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

I, too, am pretty unfamiliar with 'LUG', so maybe I'm missing context about it's generally used. (It sounds, to me, like something a lesbian would say about another lesbian, i.e. "she's a poser".) But I just don't get how it's offensive. Certainly there are women out there, especially young women, who seek lesbian experiences because it's considered kinda cool. Included in them are women who kiss other women in the presence of men specifically to get a reaction from said men. How is it offensive to suggest this person *might* be such a woman? It may not be "nice" (I didn't realize we had to nice to everybody who is subject to a fpp), but is it "it shall not pass" offensive? (Which isn't to say it should not be deleted for other reasons, such as "part of a bigger derailment".)
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:22 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

I think some people have an extreme, unrealistic, and ludicrous view of what homophobia is. Which is a shame, since there's plenty of actual homophobia to go around.

The eternal, boring, whining, eminently ignorable song of the offended... (sigh)
posted by umberto at 7:23 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

Thank you for the clean-up, Jessamyn.

And loquacious, your comment in that thread was excellent. I'm sorry it was/had to be deleted.
posted by zarq at 7:23 AM on March 12, 2010

Every man I've ever known has found lesbians sexually exciting

Yeah, but men also get turned on by... well, everything. The profile of a bass cello. Doorknobs. Sports cars. French horns. The word "French" itself, or other perfectly innocent words like Wang or Wankel. They get turned on by the ground. Trees. Rocks. Sand dunes. A light breeze. A stiff breeze. A complete lack of breeze.

Whether or not men find lesbians exciting is totally orthogonal. Real life lesbians don't exist to excite men. Whether or not lesbians have inadvertently helped equal rights is orthogonal to the discussion - that's just a byproduct, not a justification for voyeurism.

Here's the part you're not getting or acknowledging.

It's EXTREMELY offensive and self-centered for men to voice their approval of what usually amounts to their unrealistic fantasy-land version of lesbianism. In reality it has nothing to do with them.

To try to pass selfishness off as simply human nature is to fail to rise above. It's just about as bad to try to pass off violence or greed or our warlike nature on human nature. It's a cop-out, it's unevolved, it's oppressive, it's disturbing and it's not ok.

Someone commenting on how hot they think lesbians are in a thread like that where a young girl is taking a very brave stand is boorish and uncivilized and disgustingly selfish.

Would you ever even consider saying "OMG, black women at the front of the bus! I know it's taboo but it's so hot!"? Because that's basically what's happening.

Granted I'm with what appears to be about 90% of the rest of the modern world who thinks that women making out is awesome and exciting, but there's a time and a place for everything, and a thread like that isn't it. Go to a fetish club or get involved in a poly triangle, for fuck's sake.

Don't add more pain and noise and misery to this girls recklessly brave act.
posted by loquacious at 7:24 AM on March 12, 2010 [49 favorites]

How so? That is my opinion. I think she seeks attention and she got her whole school prom shitcanned as a result.

Let's take this in baby steps:

1. The school canceled the prom.
2. What the fuck about 1 don't you understand?
posted by odinsdream at 7:26 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

I think she seeks attention and she got her whole school prom shitcanned as a result.


....You know, trolls say odious things because THEY are seeking attention. I wonder if that's what we have going on here.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:26 AM on March 12, 2010 [9 favorites]

How so? That is my opinion. I think she seeks attention and she got her whole school prom shitcanned as a result.

Even if this young woman dates other women solely for attention, so what? Isn't that her human right? How does that excuse the discriminatory, and probably illegal, actions of the school board?

Even if her desire to bring a same-sex-not-a-friend-but-a-date date to prom was a vast, elaborate, Machiavellian plot to embarrass the school board with it's own bigotry, she didn't violate any one's civil rights. The school board could have just as easily said "yeah, sure, whatever" and let it pass under the radar. But they didn't. They chose to discriminate.

She may or may not be a lesbian until graduation. If she is, it's her right as a person to explore her sexuality in whatever ways that are meaningful to her.

Why do you focus on that? Why does it matter to the discussion? I think the mods have correctly determined that you have an axe to grind.
posted by device55 at 7:27 AM on March 12, 2010 [24 favorites]

Oooooh, complete lack of breeze. Complete lack of breeeeze... mmmmm... oooooh

excuse me...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:27 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I think she seeks attention and she got her whole school prom shitcanned as a result.

Do you really think she didn't realize the shit she would get for coming out and seeking to go to the prom with her girlfriend? Jesus fucking Christ. It's like those who claim homosexuality is a choice. Why would anyone "choose" to be gay/lesbian with all of the shit one has to deal with -- and for someon a day-to-day basis?
posted by ericb at 7:27 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

The idea of lesbians being an object of hetero-male fantasy ("a feature") is just repulsive.

So if you're a woman into other women that's cool. If you're a man into other men that's cool. If you're a women into men that's cool. If you're a man into women that's cool as well, but if you're a man into women that are into women that's wrong.

I'll concede that thread isn't the place for it, but the idea that guys should be enlightened and not find lesbians to be a hot fantasy is silly.

If you want a better call-out point out these women are in high school.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:28 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

uncanny hengeman -- keep digging!
posted by ericb at 7:28 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

(I didn't realize we had to nice to everybody who is subject to a fpp)

That's not what this is about. The offending comments attacked her sexuality and gender using derogatory stereotypes about lesbians, rather than addressing her actions.
posted by zarq at 7:28 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Just an opinion, mind you.

Based in what? Or do you think hunches that young women are misidentifying themselves sexually for the sake of attention is not something that should be supported by any evidence.

There was nothing nice about it. It reduced an embedded and systemic example of homophobia down to a teenage girl seeking attention, and made her the guilty party for the homophobia that is seeking to deny her equal access.

Opinions are valueless unless they are rooted in demonstrable facts. You were just being mean, and I'm not sure why you felt there was so much worth in your meanness that you needed to share it with Metafilter.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:29 AM on March 12, 2010 [11 favorites]

*and for some often on a day-to-day basis?*
posted by ericb at 7:29 AM on March 12, 2010

I'll concede that thread isn't the place for it

The thread not being the place for it is more the issue here.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:29 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Wait a second, SLoG is... you're a woman?

I'm suddenly so confused I think my head just rolled right off my neckstump.
posted by loquacious at 7:30 AM on March 12, 2010

Well, as a queer woman, I find LUG offensive because it seems to be the assumption of most people when women come out at a young age. The Oh, it's just a phase thing. Like we couldn't possibly know ourselves well enough to know this. Or, as uncanny insinuated, that we're just doing it for attention - or worse yet, the attention of men.

Yes, there are women who fit into these categories. And inevitably, that shows itself in time. Why the need to question right out of the gate?

And as someone upthread said, in the end, even if she's a "lesbian until graduation" who cares? I liked boy bands when I was a teenager, and then I didn't. There's nothing wrong with changing tastes and attractions. Sexuality is fluid.
posted by aclevername at 7:30 AM on March 12, 2010 [20 favorites]

Yeah, but men also get turned on by... well, everything. The profile of a bass cello. Doorknobs. Sports cars. French horns. The word "French" itself, or other perfectly innocent words like Wang or Wankel. They get turned on by the ground. Trees. Rocks. Sand dunes. A light breeze. A stiff breeze. A complete lack of breeze.

So do some women.
posted by little e at 7:30 AM on March 12, 2010 [8 favorites]

It may not be "nice" (I didn't realize we had to nice to everybody who is subject to a fpp), but is it "it shall not pass" offensive? (Which isn't to say it should not be deleted for other reasons, such as "part of a bigger derailment".)

"Not exactly nice" starts creeping towards "offensive" when someone starts defending the usage, over and over.
posted by 23skidoo at 7:31 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I do not get turned on by doorknobs. Am I normal?
posted by cjorgensen at 7:33 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

How is it offensive to suggest this person *might* be such a woman?

hosted from Uranus, I don't know anything about you, but judging from your profile, I'm going to suggest that you only pretend to be a web developer so that you can sneak into conferences and steal swag.

It's really REALLY offensive to doubt someone's self-identification. If I say I'm straight, you take me at my word. But since I'm a young woman, if I say I'm a lesbian, you claim I'm "just doin it to get the guys attention, amirite?" How is that NOT offensive?

You don't know this girl. You don't know anything about her, and neither does uncanny. To suggest otherwise is to be thoroughly, intentionally trollish.
posted by muddgirl at 7:33 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

So, "shirtlifter"? Anymore word on that one? I've never heard it before and I thought I was well versed in shitty things people can say to gay people.
posted by josher71 at 7:33 AM on March 12, 2010

I do not get turned on by doorknobs. Am I normal?

You've just never seen two doorknobs making out with each other, because, oh MAN.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:34 AM on March 12, 2010 [6 favorites]

And you know what, maybe this girl will grow up and her sexuality will change, and maybe she'll start sleeping with guys and falling in love with guys. That doesn't make her a "LUG", that makes her a freaking human being.
posted by muddgirl at 7:34 AM on March 12, 2010 [13 favorites]

I liked boy bands when I was a teenager...

Martha, git the rope.

The first album I ever bought was Poison -- oh the shame!! :weeps:
posted by LordSludge at 7:35 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

You've just never seen two doorknobs making out with each other, because, oh MAN.

It almost always involves some kind of lug, I'm told.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:36 AM on March 12, 2010

I called her a LUG in the nicest possible way and it got deleted.

See what device55 just said. "She may or may not be a lesbian until graduation. If she is, it's her right as a person to explore her sexuality in whatever ways that are meaningful to her. "


There's nothing nice about suggesting "Oh, I don't believe what you're saying about your orientation."

Maybe she's bi. Maybe she's asexual. Maybe she's actually, secretly straight and she just wants to take her friend to prom. Maybe she's raising hell and trying to make a point - and it's totally a point worth seeking attention over, especially if she's handling with the grace and tolerance that she is.

The point is is that IT DOES NOT MATTER. THIS SHOULDN'T EVEN BE NEWS. IT SHOULD BE BORING AND NORMAL.

She didn't cancel prom. The school did. The bigoted parents did. The bigoted kids at her school did. They chose to make the big deal out of it.

She just wanted to go to prom as she is, here and now.
posted by loquacious at 7:36 AM on March 12, 2010 [11 favorites]

Well, yeah, he's got an opinion that was rightfully called out for being douchey, and now he can't even bring himself to defend it or back it up.

The fah? What a douchey piece of guesswork by you. Back up that claim immediately.

Or are you simply an opinionophobe with the hivemind of MetaFilter to fall back on? Just give me some time and I'll back up my opinion for ya, sizzlechest. However, I think your first port of call should be that I'm not even allowed to state my opinion on The Blue.

I'm actually quite busy right now, hopefully my "back up" won't take too long...

Rosa farking Parks???! Give me strength. Joan of Ark, anyone? Erin Brockovich? Sally Ride? Emmeline Pankhurst? Anyone? Anyone?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:39 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

why did I google "shirtlifter" why why why now I want to kill the world
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 7:39 AM on March 12, 2010

Or are you simply an opinionophobe with the hivemind of MetaFilter to fall back on?

wow you have just persuaded me to agree with you congratulations we were all so wrong and you were so very very right how can you ever forgive usssssss
posted by shakespeherian at 7:42 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

To make things clear.

Calling the young woman a "lug" insinuates that she's not really a lesbian, therefore what the school board wasn't really discrimination, just a form of discipline for a kid (18 year old legal adult) acting out.

This is an attempt to do an end run around the ethics of the school board's actions. Much like the school board cancelled the prom, knowing that the student body would turn on the young woman.

The problem is, discrimination is still discrimination regardless of how accurately is applied.

If I am refused a job because someone assumes incorrectly that I'm gay, it's still discriminatory.
posted by device55 at 7:43 AM on March 12, 2010 [12 favorites]

uncanny, clearly the fact that we all are seeing your opinions in HERE is an indication that you are "allowed" to post your opinion.

Just like WE are all also "allowed" to post our opinions about the fact that YOUR opinion sucks dingo kidneys.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:44 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Rosa farking Parks???!

Most insulting middle name ever.
posted by gman at 7:44 AM on March 12, 2010

Rosa farking Parks???! Give me strength.

Doesn't seem an inappropriate comparison to me. This young woman is being extremely brave, and is pushing the envelope of societal tolerance here in the much the same way Rosa Parks did, as far as I can see.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:44 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

mmmmmmmm, cello. Shapely.
posted by fixedgear at 7:44 AM on March 12, 2010

Hetero men are like this.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:45 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

It reduced an embedded and systemic example of homophobia down to a teenage girl seeking attention, and made her the guilty party for the homophobia that is seeking to deny her equal access.

No, it didn't. It was a comment on metafilter. People read one person's opinion and reacted to it. Many of them expressed ways the idea was problematic. This is how it's supposed to work. Mere exposure to an idea doesn't have that sort of power.

The Oh, it's just a phase thing. Like we couldn't possibly know ourselves well enough to know this. Or, as uncanny insinuated, that we're just doing it for attention - or worse yet, the attention of men.

Thank you for the answer, and that makes a lot of sense. I still don't think it elevates the thought to verboten, but I do understand better why people don't like it.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:45 AM on March 12, 2010

Rosa farking Parks???!

Rosa Parks is notable because she did a very normal thing. After all, she "just" sat on a bus. "Just" wanting to go to prom with your date is also a very normal.

Standing up to bigotry and hate without backing down makes Constance McMillen's situation very similar to that of Rosa Parks. I'm not even sure what your complaint is with this comparison.
posted by odinsdream at 7:46 AM on March 12, 2010 [9 favorites]

So. When I saw this thread I went straight to the FPP to see if I could identify the homohobic comments on my own. A test for myself. I flunked. I saw a few mild jokes and an overwhelming amount of support for the girl. Jessmyn seems to have removed the worst comment, which is the appropriate thing to do, and the rest is just standard.

There is not a single edgy or controversial topic that can be posted on the front page without getting a few jokes thrown in. This hand wringing is not required over something like this.
posted by SLC Mom at 7:47 AM on March 12, 2010

I liked boy bands when I was a teenager, and then I didn't. There's nothing wrong with changing tastes and attractions. Sexuality is fluid.

And how.

Hell, when I was in high school can't believe I'm typing this I was absolutely fascinated by that part at the back of a girls knee. Whatsitcalled, a knee-pit?

Anyway, yeah. Rampantly, turgidly fascinated by... knee-pits. I think that lasted for about a year or two. By the time I was old enough to actually have a partner I was getting naked and smoochy all over with on a regular basis it didn't really do anything for me any more, but I sure tried to see if it still did anything. "What the fuh... why are you kissing me there!? GAAAH TICKLES STOPITSTOPSTOP."

Nope, I'm not into knee-pits anymore. I'm more into Dimples of Venus now. I must have just been a KPUG.
posted by loquacious at 7:47 AM on March 12, 2010 [6 favorites]

explosion writes "I suppose it's all about context, but I don't read 'Prom Lesbians: a feature, not a bug' as voyeuristic hetero-male fantasy. It's well known that diversity is an oft-touted and oft-sought 'feature' in companies and universities. Being able to claim that your university has 12% lesbians, or your company has benefits for same-sex couples promotes a culture of diversity that extends beyond the immediate beneficiaries."

This would have been my take as well. Someone commented that such a take was overly charitable; it never would have occurred to me to interpret that statement to "lesbians: Hubba Hubba". But I suppose that like "Dude" the phrase "FOO is a feature not a bug" works on many different levels and is open to misinterpretation and misapplication.
posted by Mitheral at 7:49 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

I must have just been a KPUG.

Kevin Spacey's career really went downhill around then.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:49 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

When I saw this thread I went straight to the FPP to see if I could identify the homohobic comments on my own. A test for myself. I flunked. I saw a few mild jokes and an overwhelming amount of support for the girl.

that's not because of "hand-wringing", that's because Jessamyn removed more than just one comment.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:49 AM on March 12, 2010

I read "opinionophobe" as "onionophobe." The fah to all onionophobes.
posted by theredpen at 7:50 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Can you express the opinion without using a slur, epithet, or stereotype?

Just a quick question - hang in there, rtha - as I take a break from scribing the requested backup of my non homophobic twice-deleted opinion.

Miko, given that is what I believe, please tell my how I can offer MY OPINION without using a slur, epithet, or stereotype.

Give me the Miko-approved way. rtha, you might wanna help out while you're waiting.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:51 AM on March 12, 2010

I'm not into knee-pits anymore.

How 'bout knee-pits arched around a doorknob? On a day with a complete lack of breeze? Hmm? Okay? Amirite?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:52 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

No, it didn't. It was a comment on metafilter. People read one person's opinion and reacted to it. Many of them expressed ways the idea was problematic. This is how it's supposed to work. Mere exposure to an idea doesn't have that sort of power.

Sure it did. IIn the argument that was being presented (she's not really a lesbian, and she's the one responsible for the prom being canceled), she was made the guilty party. I must have been unclear on what I meant.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:52 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Dimples of Venus

holycow, I never knew there was a phrase for that. I should probably go stand by the people who just learned what LUG meant.
posted by 23skidoo at 7:52 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

> I thought maybe with a repost the Mods would have realised what a disgraceful deletion it was, but nuh.

Hahahahaha!

Keep runnin', man; you're rounding the bases and heading for home!
posted by languagehat at 7:52 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I do not get turned on by doorknobs. Am I normal?

I don't know. Have you ever tried to stop turning them? I bet you'd get pretty turned off if you did.
posted by loquacious at 7:52 AM on March 12, 2010

I'm curious as to this motivation to label things one disagrees with as "Oh, they're just doing it for the attention."

Lemme think back... I've been told that of:
- a white girl dating a black man
- two guys walking down the street holding hands
- a mother protesting a war that killed her son
- nudists
- gays of any stripe wanting to marry
- women demanding equal rights of any sort
- a black man demanding racial equality of any sort

I think I see a common pattern. Seems to me it's an effort to marginalize and delegitimize other people that live their lives differently than what the observer would like. I suspect this is an effort to defend the observer's fragile world view -- e.g., noooo a girl couldn't POSSIBLY love another girl, there must be another explanation!! That's my guess, anyhow.

On a personal note, I'm sad to note that all of the above examples have come from my own family. I'm not sure what to do about it.
posted by LordSludge at 7:52 AM on March 12, 2010 [41 favorites]

The fah?

the word you're looking for is "fuck" - we've all heard it and it will hardly be the worst thing you've posted today
posted by pyramid termite at 7:52 AM on March 12, 2010 [18 favorites]

So. When I saw this thread I went straight to the FPP to see if I could identify the homohobic comments on my own. A test for myself. I flunked. I saw a few mild jokes and an overwhelming amount of support for the girl. Jessmyn seems to have removed the worst comment, which is the appropriate thing to do, and the rest is just standard.

Correction: Jessamyn removed several comments by more than one person.

There is not a single edgy or controversial topic that can be posted on the front page without getting a few jokes thrown in. This hand wringing is not required over something like this.

Are you saying that once offensive comments are removed from a thread, we should no longer consider them worth discussing? I disagree.
posted by zarq at 7:53 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Miko, given that is what I believe, please tell my how I can offer MY OPINION without using a slur, epithet, or stereotype.

If you're incapable of expressing an opinion without it involving a slur, epithet, or stereotype, why do you think it needs sharing? And why aren't you reconsidering it?
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:53 AM on March 12, 2010 [8 favorites]

please tell my how I can offer MY OPINION without using a slur, epithet, or stereotype.

hengeman, dude, I dunno, you might wanna give it a rest or something. Take a walk? You digging yourself into one deep hole of stupid, man.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:54 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

On a personal note, I'm sad to note that all of the above examples have come from my own family. I'm not sure what to do about it.

Seems to me you're doing a fine job of leading by example.
posted by zarq at 7:55 AM on March 12, 2010

please tell my how I can offer MY OPINION without using a slur, epithet, or stereotype.

If you can't figure this one out, then maybe your opinion is loathsome?
posted by shakespeherian at 7:57 AM on March 12, 2010 [12 favorites]

I say I'm a lesbian, you claim I'm "just doin it to get the guys attention, amirite?"

I've never said anything of the sort in my life. This doesn't mean I don't what to read somebody saying such on thing at metafilter, or the reactions to it.

Calling the young woman a "lug" insinuates that she's not really a lesbian, therefore what the school board wasn't really discrimination, just a form of discipline for a kid (18 year old legal adult) acting out.

If uncanny hengeman meant to insinuate that the school board wasn't practicing discrimination, then I retract what I've said. I didn't see what he said exactly so I don't know, but I don't think "she likes the attention" is necessarily mutually exclusive with "the decision is wrong".
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:58 AM on March 12, 2010

Seems to me it's an effort to marginalize and delegitimize other people that live their lives differently than what the observer would like. I suspect this is an effort to defend the observer's fragile world view -- e.g., noooo a girl couldn't POSSIBLY love another girl, there must be another explanation!! That's my guess, anyhow.

I think you're absolutely right. What I have never understood is why people are so threatened by someone else's sexuality.
posted by zarq at 7:58 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

However, I think your first port of call should be that I'm not even allowed to state my opinion on The Blue.

That's because your opinion is stupid. Here is evidence to back my claim:

Rosa farking Parks???! Give me strength. Joan of Ark, anyone? Erin Brockovich? Sally Ride? Emmeline Pankhurst? Anyone? Anyone?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:39 AM on March 12

You actually used the word 'farking" non-ironically. We must therefore conclude that you are either a greasy dateless misogynist teenage boy or literally the world's dumbest adult human being.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:59 AM on March 12, 2010 [6 favorites]

Uncanny hengeman said she was responsible for the school shitcanning the response. That's not an exact quote, but it's pretty damn close.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:59 AM on March 12, 2010

This doesn't mean I don't what to read somebody saying such on thing at metafilter, or the reactions to it.

The problem is that it derails the entire discussion. It's sort of thin newsfilter to begin with, and an entire derail about blaming the victim probably isn't productive. Which is why we do it here.

Also because it's a slow Friday and the flameout is making my morning go by faster.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:02 AM on March 12, 2010

I went straight to the FPP to see if I could identify the homohobic comments on my own.

The problem really is that it's not one dismissive comment that is the problem, it's the fact that the thread started with a few comments that were sort of crappy and lulzy and then people responded and were annoyed and with each new comment it becomes harder to talk about the actual topic because there's so much noise.

I don't even think it's that anyone was specifically trying to be homophobic, it's that in a community of this size making casually homophobic-sounding remarks is pretty difficult to distinguish from actual homophobia. Put another way, it doesn't matter so much to me from a mod perspective whether someone in their hearts is anti-lesbian (though it matters on a personal level) as much as whether they can talk to other people on a large site full of, among many other people, lesbians, in a civil and respectful way.

Using a bunch of epithets, slurs and/or just general negative comments about this particular situation that many people view as a civil rights issue shows a lack of ability to read the room in some general sense. So, from a MeFi perspective, it's a problem. What you feel in your secret heart is up to you. How you communicate that with the site at large is a site issue.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:03 AM on March 12, 2010 [11 favorites]

Miko, given that is what I believe, please tell my how I can offer MY OPINION without using a slur, epithet, or stereotype.

How about this: if you're incapable of doing so, then don't. Alternatively, if you just HAVE to say something, don't throw a snitfit when people call you out on 'em.
posted by zarq at 8:03 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

HOLY. FARKING. CRAP. What a load of epic phailage. You DELETED my 'shop of Obama as the Joker??? What. teh. fark. mods. This is more PC correctness run amock. First of all I ahve free speech. This is America. AMERICA. Just because of bunch of LESBOS and MINORITIES don't like it TOUGH S**T. This is going straigt to the FIRST FARKING PAGE of reddit in minutes. your going to pay for this. FAIL
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:03 AM on March 12, 2010 [30 favorites]

Quite a combination of aggressively purposeless contrarianism wrapped in resolutely passive obtuseness. uncanny for the win!
posted by blucevalo at 8:03 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

loquacious writes "Yeah, but men also get turned on by... well, everything. The profile of a bass cello. Doorknobs. Sports cars. French horns. The word 'French' itself, or other perfectly innocent words like Wang or Wankel. They get turned on by the ground. Trees. Rocks. Sand dunes. A light breeze. A stiff breeze. A complete lack of breeze."

This by the way cheezes me off. Why is it okey dokey to make sweeping denigrating generalizations of the sexual habits and attractions of straight men?

23skidoo writes "holycow, I never knew there was a phrase for that. I should probably go stand by the people who just learned what LUG meant."

I'm already over there and, despite what it might do to my learn a new thing everyday quota, what the heck are Dimples of Venus. The only thing I can think of isn't generally found in plurals.
posted by Mitheral at 8:05 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

I'll concede that thread isn't the place for it, but the idea that guys should be enlightened and not find lesbians to be a hot fantasy is silly.

There’s a difference between having fantasies about lesbians and imposing your fantasies on real lesbians. They aren’t lesbians so you can get off, so keep it to yourself.

I called her a LUG in the nicest possible way and it got deleted.

You see, this scans to me as the equivalent ‘I called her an attention-seeking slut in the nicest possible way and it got deleted’. LUG isn’t a nice term-at best, it’s dismissive. At worst, it’s sexist, homophobic, and predatory all in one blow. Maybe you should stay away from it.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:06 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

I miss the image tag. Can we make this the background image for this thread?
posted by loquacious at 8:07 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimples_of_Venus
posted by device55 at 8:07 AM on March 12, 2010

Why is it okey dokey to make sweeping denigrating generalizations of the sexual habits and attractions of straight men?

Feminist Ruling: It's not
New Feminazi Decree: Cut it out, you guys.

There, aren't you glad we feminists finally rule the world? ;)
posted by muddgirl at 8:07 AM on March 12, 2010

given that is what I believe, please tell my how I can offer MY OPINION without using a slur, epithet, or stereotype

I have found that the more supporting details I can add to something I am discussing, the more people are willing to listen to me. If your whole point is "I think she is merely going through a lesbian phase, but I am unable to provide any reason why I think that," then it's not going to add anything to the conversation, and it's going to derail the thread. If you want to express YOUR OPINION, at least make sure there's enough thoughtfulness behind it so that there's something to respond to. Otherwise, a discussion about whether cancelling prom was the best way to avoid getting sued becomes a discussion on whether people on Metafilter should have the right to say whatever they want.
posted by 23skidoo at 8:09 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

Just for the record, I read the pruned thread only post-pruning and it survived rather well. Nice editing jessamyn; nice do-over everyone.

This situation here, on the other hand, is festering a bit and could do with some clearing (of heads, not necessarily of comments).
posted by carsonb at 8:09 AM on March 12, 2010

what the heck are Dimples of Venus.

she's got it, yeah baby, she's got it.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:09 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

Are you saying that once offensive comments are removed from a thread, we should no longer consider them worth discussing? I disagree.

Well, it certainly makes them harder to discuss. There is not much there now, so it makes this conversation look a little overwrought.
posted by SLC Mom at 8:09 AM on March 12, 2010

Every man I've ever known has found lesbians sexually exciting

Fair enough, I suppose, since you and I have never met.
posted by EatTheWeak at 8:10 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Why is it okey dokey to make sweeping denigrating generalizations of the sexual habits and attractions of straight men?

Who said anything about straight? I forgot to add the weasel words "some" and "most". Sure, men are complicated too. But horny. Dude, I've seen men get wood over a new BBQ grill.

I can't help but notice you have knee-pits. Wanna make out?
posted by loquacious at 8:10 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Somebody posted this story on Facebook yesterday, and most of the comments were "teenage lesbians are a feature, not a bug" etc etc. It's a kind of creepy response that probably indicates that society (in this case American or Canadian or what have you) is still not ready to accept gays and lesbians as "normal", and reinforces the injustice of what happened at that school.

If thinking about two girls getting it on turns your crank, well, that's a different issue, but in this case we're talking about two children, so sex shouldn't really come into the discussion. They're just a couple of kids who need acceptance, understanding and kindness from adults. If your comments are jokey and snarky, in this context they are just unkind, and add to the injustice.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:10 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Why is it okey dokey to make sweeping denigrating generalizations of the sexual habits and attractions of straight men?

There's nothing denigrating about being turned on by the wind, man. Mother nature, baby; she's a stone cold freaky fox.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:10 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

And this, on the most holy of gay holidays.... Liza Minelli's birthday... for shame MetaFilter. For shame.
posted by greekphilosophy at 8:12 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

but I don't think "she likes the attention" is necessarily mutually exclusive with "the decision is wrong"

THANK YOU, and hosted from Uranus! Let's get that out of the way. I am quite prepared to forgive anyone who made that mistake in logic. Mainly because I am such a tolerant chappie. Especially considering I said "as a result" of her actions the prom was cancelled.

Her actions caused the prom cancellation. The cancellation was wrong. These two states of being can exist in the same universe without causing some sort of space-time continuum storm. However, I only chose to comment on the former.

Furthermore...
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:14 AM on March 12, 2010

I don't comprehend the desire, when confronted with a story about a person who is risking a whole hell of a lot of peer and societal persecution for standing up for herself and for the freedom for people to be who they are, to respond with a tossed-off snarky sexist epithet in the guise of a "joke."

And I'm totally baffled by a need, when one has been told one's behaviour as outlined above is absolutely inappropriate, to try to defend it repeatedly and with sustained heat and vigour.

Dude, you fucked up. Eat the crow, spit out the legs and feathers and, hopefully wiser and more thoughtful for the experience, move one to the next adventure.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:14 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

given that is what I believe, please tell my how I can offer MY OPINION without using a slur, epithet, or stereotype.

Maybe . . . don't? Not every opinion needs to be expressed.

And how do we know you're not just persisting in this for the . . . wait for it . . . attention?
posted by liketitanic at 8:15 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimples_of_Venus

I didn't know this was a thing. Rule 34, I guess?

There are even links at the bottom of that page to a couple of galleries.
posted by zarq at 8:15 AM on March 12, 2010

I'm not even allowed to state my opinion on The Blue.

SILENCED ALL MY LIFE
posted by EatTheWeak at 8:16 AM on March 12, 2010 [6 favorites]

in this case we're talking about two children

FWIW, she's 18.
posted by odinsdream at 8:16 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Her actions caused the prom cancellation.

Speaking of weasel words.

Her birth also caused the prom to be canceled. The invention of the prom caused the prom to be canceled. Columbus caused the prom to be canceled. The development of cavemen caused the prom to be canceled.

Ultimately, the cause is the Big Band, that fucker.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:17 AM on March 12, 2010 [8 favorites]

Big Bang, rather, although I suspect Glen Miller shares some blame.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:17 AM on March 12, 2010 [25 favorites]

And "she likes attention" is not the same thing as "Oh she's just going through a phaze and isn't really a lesbian."

Her actions caused the prom cancellation.

No, they didn't. The school administrations sexism and homophobia caused the cancellation. There is something wrong with your logic.
posted by rtha at 8:18 AM on March 12, 2010 [14 favorites]

administration's, that is.
posted by rtha at 8:18 AM on March 12, 2010

Mother nature, baby; she's a stone cold freaky fox.

Exactly, now excuse me, I'm going to go and fah the heck out of the cello while the doorknob watches.
posted by quin at 8:19 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Her actions caused the prom cancellation.

Her actions didn't cause the prom cancellation. What caused the prom to be cancelled was that school district's homophobia. They reacted to her, not the other way around.

The cancellation was wrong.

Yes, it was. But you're blaming the victim.
posted by zarq at 8:20 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

I am quite prepared to forgive anyone who made that mistake in logic.

How charitable of you. Perhaps you'd like to go ahead and state for the record whether you believe the school's actions were discriminatory or not, as there was confusion earlier due to your LUG comment.

Her actions caused the prom cancellation. The cancellation was wrong.

While this is technically true, it's similar to how the actions of blacks in Alabama singing on the steps of a courthouse "caused" them to be beaten and arrested. In this case, your response looked a lot like "oh they don't really want to register to vote, they're only registering to vote for attention." which, at best, misses the goddamn point, and at worst is hateful.

Furthermore...

Go on...
posted by odinsdream at 8:20 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

And "she likes attention" is not the same thing as "Oh she's just going through a phaze and isn't really a lesbian."

Oh, come on. Next you're going to be saying that it depends on what our definition of "is" is.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:21 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Big Bang, rather, although I suspect Glen Miller shares some blame.

I'm partial to the Barenaked Ladies myself.
posted by zarq at 8:22 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Christ, I really need more coffee.

Phaze should be phase. Gah.
posted by rtha at 8:24 AM on March 12, 2010

Gaddammit, AZ, you are one funny motherfucker. I should've been asleep an hour ago, but this lively thread is keeping me up, and you're a big part of that.

hengeman, you gonna flame out before I hit the sack, or what?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:24 AM on March 12, 2010

And "she likes attention" is not the same thing as "Oh she's just going through a phaze and isn't really a lesbian."

Oh, come on. Next you're going to be saying that it depends on what our definition of "is" is.

Is this missing a sarcasm tag?
posted by device55 at 8:26 AM on March 12, 2010

Her actions caused the prom cancellation.

Ummm, fine, but she did not have the authority to cancel prom, and no reasonable person would think that "canceling prom" would be the expected outcome of her actions. It's weird to point to her (even in a backpedaling pedantic way) as the one responsible for the cancellation of prom.
posted by 23skidoo at 8:28 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

You actually used the word 'farking" non-ironically. We must therefore conclude that you are either a greasy dateless misogynist teenage boy or literally the world's dumbest adult human being.

No, Optimus Chyme. It's quite common where I come from. You really should be more tolerant of other cultures and their social mores. BTW it can be used as both a feeling of annoyance:
Optimus farking Chyme. There he goes again. That bigoted American madly banging away at his keyboard lecturing Australians on what they can and can't say.

and as a term of endearment. Even most females wouldn't be offended by it in that context:
Optimus farking Chyme. Dude! Duuuuude! Long time no see, you crazy American, you. How you been?

"Optimus bloody Chyme" is the oldskool version, and causes less knee jerk reactions from opinionophobes such as yourself.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:30 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I cancelled prom. What did you ever do?
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:31 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

So, uncanny, how did you come to the conclusion that she's a LUG? Really. I'm curious.
posted by rtha at 8:31 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

and hosted from Uranus: Certainly there are women out there, especially young women, who seek lesbian experiences because it's considered kinda cool. Included in them are women who kiss other women in the presence of men specifically to get a reaction from said men. How is it offensive to suggest this person *might* be such a woman?

Because it's irrelevant. Whether she is a card-carrying lesbian with the lesbian seal of approval, or simply experimenting, or doing it to get the attention of boys, does not matter. The school is still homophobic, the school only canceled the prom because she wanted to bring a girl, no matter what the reason.
posted by desjardins at 8:32 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

So, uncanny, how did you come to the conclusion that she's a LUG?

Yeah, I'm curious too. Many of us are, I reckon.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:36 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

You really should be more tolerant of other cultures and their social mores.

i'm looking for stupidland on a map and can't find it
posted by pyramid termite at 8:36 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

words
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:30 AM on March 12

That's great; now do you mind addressing the substantive critiques of your behavior or is it going to be more bullshit? You're a real tough guy when it comes to talking shit about young women brave enough to come out of the closet in the southern U.S. but you sure whine like a tiny baby when someone calls you on it.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:37 AM on March 12, 2010 [22 favorites]

She looks like an attention seeking LUG to me.

Yeah, rtha, I was wondering the same thing. I wonder what is it about how she looks that would cause her lesbianosity to be suspect?
posted by desuetude at 8:37 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

So, uncanny, how did you come to the conclusion that she's a LUG?

Yes, please explain. So far, literally the only thing I've heard is "MY OPINION". What are you basing your opinion on? I sure hope it's something you are able and willing to explain to us.
posted by rollbiz at 8:40 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

LUG
Shirtlifter
Dimples of Venus

I'm 48 years old, and I had never heard any of these before this morning. This has been one heck of an educational thread. Carry on.
posted by fixedgear at 8:41 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Well, it certainly makes them harder to discuss. There is not much there now, so it makes this conversation look a little overwrought.

OK. I'll add the context back in. Here are the three comments that prompted me to create this FPP:

"I thought it was a well known fact that there was no carpet to munch on a bathroom floor."

"She looks like an attention seeking LUG to me."

"Alright. I'm sick of this. Can we stop calling them lesbians? I mean a reference to some island from ancient Greece where some lyre-wielding poet chick lived? How irrelevant.

How about "labiaphiles". Or "Chicks with metaphorical dicks" Or "beaver wranglers".

Also, the residents of the southeastern USA are still being dragged feet first into the twentieth century. News at half past a cow's ass."

posted by zarq at 8:41 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Yeah, rtha, I was wondering the same thing.

i read the story yesterday and can't for the life of me understand how he got "attention seeking LUG" out of that

it must be one of those things where he's just reading in what he wants to read into the story to reinforce his own prejudices
posted by pyramid termite at 8:41 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

So, uncanny, I'm asking you the question again. You know, the one rtha's been asking. Yeah, that one.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:44 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Furthermore...

Go on...

odinsdream: You're just stalling now.

uncanny hengeman: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you?

Really sorry rtha, et al. It's just that every time I take a peek at the thread I spy yet another glib generalisation that causes me make a quick retort.

/I like to rebut
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:44 AM on March 12, 2010

So are you going to cackle and fall over dead, or what.
posted by cashman at 8:45 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

It's not a debate. It's a conversation.
posted by muddgirl at 8:46 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

And this, on the most holy of gay holidays.... Liza Minelli's birthday... for shame MetaFilter. For shame.

I'm a bad gay because I'm a bigger fan of Liza on Arrested Development than any of her other work that actually made her a gay icon.

(though I did wait in line forever at a Borders downtown to her autograph when "Liza with a Z" came out on DVD... because I'm a bad gay but a great boyfriend)

Thanks desjardin for making the point I was going to make in a clearer and more succinctly way. If we're going to start criticizing 17 year olds -- or anyone, actually -- by whether or not they are doing something for attention, we're not going to be approving of a lot of choices that are made. In this instance, motive doesn't matter.

In fact, I'd like to thank everybody for this thread and discussion. Lately, with MetaFilter has been dealing with gay issues and how the site handles disagreements, those crying 'homophobia' have been so ready for a fight and looking for flaws that I've had to fight the urge to argue against them. This thread has done it in such a way that it seems like it could be more educational than confrontational - which I think is what our target should be.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:47 AM on March 12, 2010

/I like to rebut

I don't think that word means what you think it means.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:47 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

Wow. Dude, just walk away. Nothing good can come of your current approach.
posted by rollbiz at 8:47 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

why did I google "shirtlifter" why why why now I want to kill the world


Man, do I regret pulling that one out of the vapor as a random example. I think I've only heard it in period movies set in posh English boarding schools where it's wielded by disdainful upper-crust boys.

And about the "LUG" thing -- a label isn't an opinion on an issue; it's a characterization of a person. A personal label that is an acronym is pretty much guaranteed to be offensive.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:48 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

well, this thread has been worth it for getting me to google shirtlifter, where I came up with this artist's site (word re-appropriated by gay male, some images NSFW)
posted by desjardins at 8:49 AM on March 12, 2010

The only thing I can think of isn't generally found in plurals.

My mind went there as well. Oh happy place!
posted by cjorgensen at 8:50 AM on March 12, 2010

"attention seeking LUG" is a tautology, pyramid termite.

/but now I'm just stalling.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:50 AM on March 12, 2010

It's an indecisive Australian Rules football player, for Chrissakes.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:50 AM on March 12, 2010

It's just that every time I take a peek at the thread I spy yet another glib generalisation that causes me make a quick retort.

THOSE ARE OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS, YOU OPINIONOPHOBE.
posted by 23skidoo at 8:50 AM on March 12, 2010

rebuts lol
posted by languagehat at 8:50 AM on March 12, 2010 [6 favorites]

I very rarely think this on Metatalk, but... we're being genuinely trolled. And probably should stop feeding it.
posted by restless_nomad at 8:51 AM on March 12, 2010

I'm switching my opinion from "clueless" to "trolling."
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:51 AM on March 12, 2010

I'm switching my opinion from "clueless" to "trolling."

It could be both.
posted by device55 at 8:52 AM on March 12, 2010

"attention seeking LUG" is a tauntology

ftfy
posted by pyramid termite at 8:52 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

If I were a moderator I'd give uncanny hengeman a big gold star on each side of his username.

Man, it's not even particularly entertaining trolling.
posted by muddgirl at 8:53 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I very rarely think this on Metatalk, but... we're being genuinely trolled.

Hey, I called it an hour ago.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:53 AM on March 12, 2010

Learned a lot of stupid new epithets from this thread. LUG, shirtlifter, etc. - "opinionophobe" has gotta be the stoopidest and my most favoritest of the bunch.

How is that threads like this always crop up when I've got lotsa shit to get done? Flame out all the way or go sleep it off, uncanny. I got homework to get to.
posted by EatTheWeak at 8:54 AM on March 12, 2010

Being the first to call troll is like being the first to find the baby in the king cake. It seems like you won, but all it means is you have to buy the next king cake.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:55 AM on March 12, 2010 [8 favorites]

given that is what I believe, please tell my how I can offer MY OPINION without using a slur, epithet, or stereotype

Here are the questions:

1. Do you have some reason for thinking she's either attention-seeking or a LUG?
2. Why does it matter if she's a Real Lesbian^TM? Should she only be allowed to bring a female date if she passes some sort of lesbian test?
3. What do her motivations have to do with the issue of the school canceling the event rather than allowing her to bring a female date?

Unless you have some good answers to those questions, your LUG comment didn't belong in the thread. Neither would "Lesbians are HAWT." Neither would "How many lesbians does it take to change a lightbulb?" Neither would "McMillen? Damn Scots ruin everything!" It doesn't contribute enough to the discussion to make up for the potential offensiveness. Sometimes it is okay to keep opinions to oneself.
posted by Dojie at 8:56 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

What I have never understood is why people are so threatened by someone else's sexuality.

I've come to assume that it's largely because they are threatened by their own uncertainty over their own sexuality. Witness closet-gay, openly homophobic republicans and religious leaders.

But I think there's more to it. Something about people feeling better about themselves by putting down others -- where "other" = having some obvious quality different from myself -- which is easier if the others are socially weaker than themselves.
posted by LordSludge at 8:56 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

French horns

Some of us are at work, here!
posted by ODiV at 8:58 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

"attention seeking LUG" is a tautology, pyramid termite.

/but now I'm just stalling.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:50 AM

No. You're just being a jerk.
posted by rtha at 8:59 AM on March 12, 2010 [8 favorites]

Yeah, the Rosa Parks thing is a stretch, especially considering that Rosa Parks was an adult specifically trained in non-violent civil disobedience in order to do exactly what she did and put herself out as an agent of change, while this girl is a high school student who is just brave and wants to take her girlfriend to the prom.
posted by Pollomacho at 8:59 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

The only thing I can think of isn't generally found in plurals.

My mind went there as well. Oh happy place!

Nah, they're much nicer than bellybuttons.

Especially for body shots because there's two of them and they're generally not full of lint.

What?
posted by loquacious at 9:00 AM on March 12, 2010

Homophobia is always a byproduct of sexism.

Jaltcoh: By that do you mean that sexism always creates homophobia as a byproduct, or do you mean that homophobia is exclusively a byproduct, dependent, of sexism?

Both seem false to me.

I mean there's always sexism underlying any homophobia.* I don't see how this could possibly not be the case, since a person or couple's status as gay is always dependent on someone's sex/gender.

This could also explain why male/male couples are more widely and viscerally reviled than female/female couples. This is rooted in anti-female sexism and the view that women are subordinate. The man who wants to have the role of a woman (that's not how I view gay men, but that's how homophobic people see them) is seen as shameful because he is letting himself be subordinated and failing to live up to traditional expectations of men. Homophobia against lesbians is weaker because there's at least a grudging respect for dominant/masculine women.

Maybe I'm wrong since that's just my attempt to psychoanalyze homophobes, and I don't share their views. But if you disagree with that explanation, I'd be interested to know what the alternate explanation is for why gay men are subject to particular scorn.

I don't know why you think this is "false" since you didn't explain it. I don't find it useful for people to just label comments on the internet as "false" without illuminating why. I assume that any comment I post is going to be disagreed with by someone, so I'm not impressed by comments that just say "false."

* I understand that you could literally interpret me to be saying any sexism always creates homophobia. That is the less reasonable interpretation, so that's not what I meant. I would actually say sexism generally tends to lead to homophobia, but it'd be too extreme to say this always happens. In contrast, it seems to me that all homophobia can be traced to sexism.
posted by Jaltcoh at 9:01 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

I've come to assume that it's largely because they are threatened by their own uncertainty over their own sexuality.

I think this is some of it, but I am cautious about that. I think too much is made of homophobes being secretly self-loathing bisexuals. I'd say there are many cases where this is true, but many where the homophobe has no sexual feelings toward the same gender, or they are so slight as to not be the dominant factor.

Honestly, I think a lot of homophobia is taught, and serves a political and social function. People hate because it is useful for them to hate; they get something out of it. Some people get a pass to deny their own homosexuality. Some people get political power. Some people just get to think somebody is more despicable than them.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:02 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

josher71: "So, "shirtlifter"? Anymore word on that one?"

It comes from "shirt tail lifter". A shirt tail is apiece of material that elongates the length of the shirt so that it doesn't come out of the trousers when you bend over. To be a shirt lifter is to lift the tail of the shirt to expose the buttocks. Or something like that. It's pretty old, I haven't heard it used for years. Also see: "fruit".
posted by Solomon at 9:03 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

I just woke up and the fuck now?
posted by The Whelk at 9:05 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

I just woke up and the fuck now?

The word is "fuh."
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:06 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

Well, there you have it. MeTa done been trolled. It's a big ol' trolly trollfest done been trollified, trolled up, trollaed around and trolled under. The uncanny trollman ain't never gonna answer the question. The uncanny trollman is an attention troll. I ain't gonna feed the attention troll no more troll food, cause he's already bloated and gaseous. His noxious troll farts linger in this complete absence of breeze, so I'm gonna bid this stinky troll zone adieu. Farewell trollman!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:08 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

*pours coffee for The Whelk*
posted by rtha at 9:08 AM on March 12, 2010

*bakes some troll house cookies*
posted by pyramid termite at 9:11 AM on March 12, 2010 [10 favorites]

What I have never understood is why people are so threatened by someone else's sexuality.

LordSludge : ...they are threatened by their own uncertainty over their own sexuality... Something about people feeling better about themselves by putting down others -- where "other" = having some obvious quality different from myself -- which is easier if the others are socially weaker than themselves.

Between these two, I think you've pretty well nailed it. The second one could also be a valid argument about the friction between different religions, race and gender relations as well.

Sadly, I think this is one of those parts-of-the-ways-that-humans-are-wired that we aren't going to change, and is going to continue to fuck us over until we lose our spots in the food chain to sentient octopuses.
posted by quin at 9:11 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

The snowflakes are melting!
posted by chillmost at 9:12 AM on March 12, 2010

I did not know until two minutes ago that Suzanne Pharr's book, Homophobia - A Weapon of Sexism is available free online (.pdf). It's been years since I read it, but it was pretty groundbreaking at the time.
posted by rtha at 9:12 AM on March 12, 2010 [9 favorites]

Flapjax needs to record that has a harmonica riff "The Troll Done Gone"
posted by The Whelk at 9:14 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I also woke up to my co-atuhor leading a campaign against B&N so this is an usual Friday. I blame Austin.
posted by The Whelk at 9:14 AM on March 12, 2010

The word is "fah."
posted by nevercalm at 9:16 AM on March 12, 2010

I think she is doing it for the attention.

There are a lot of people who don't want "the attention". In order to avoid it they don't go to prom with that asshole who is going to dump them two months from now, they don't ask their sisters for advice about their new girlfriend, they don't announce their engagement at work, they don't tell their friends about the wonderful new person who might be The One. They don't like "the attention" because, for them, it comes with an enormous burden.

She's shouldering that burden because for whatever reason, her personality, her family support, her bravery--she has decided that she wants "the attention".

I am extremely grateful to her. I lost a good friend at 15 because he couldn't handle being young, gay, and involuntarily out in my small, bigoted high school. He ran away from home. The school took down all of the posters we put up about his disappearance because he was just doing it for "the attention". Then a week went by. And a month. And he's still gone. I would have loved to have had this kind of national support and yes, I would have loved "the attention" if it meant getting him back.

Hope he's still out there--we miss him so much.
posted by internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 at 9:19 AM on March 12, 2010 [50 favorites]

Homophobia against lesbians is weaker because there's at least a grudging respect for dominant/masculine women.

Eh, I think homophobia against women is just even more sexist to the extent that the homophobia is secondary. The sex isn't as threatening because what women "do" isn't "real sex."

It's the stereotypical bulldykes who get the more direct angry homophobia because they allegedly disrupt the men VS women dichotomy. So they're freaks and don't count as women under the no true Scotsman argument.
posted by desuetude at 9:20 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Simmer down, Gayzilla.
posted by greekphilosophy at 9:20 AM on March 12, 2010

So, uncanny, how did you come to the conclusion that she's a LUG? Really. I'm curious.

He can tell by the pixels.

Anyway, I guess I charitably interpreted the "feature not a bug" comment as a joke at the expense of horny (straight) teenage boys.

I suppose whether on not it's appropriate to joke at all in that thread is another issue entirely.
posted by brundlefly at 9:21 AM on March 12, 2010

I blame Austin.

Hey, now. We're all too hungover to be responsible for anything.

For values of "we" that equal "oh God I forgot I'm not 22 anymore."
posted by restless_nomad at 9:21 AM on March 12, 2010

MeTa done been trolled.

Please, Flapjax, I believe the proper conjugation for that tense is: done been trollded.
posted by Pollomacho at 9:24 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

It's not a debate. It's a conversation.

Not when you are being repeatedly attacked and goaded into flaming out.

The worst of Metafilter comes out to play.
posted by Big_B at 9:24 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Trolls don't burn out, they fade away.
posted by muddgirl at 9:28 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

And to respond to other points:

--I know guys who aren't into girl-on-girl porn. Haven't checked if they're into real life lesbian sex, will have to ask

--Some lesbians do have/like penises made out of silicone or another non-porous material. Haven't checked for metaphorical penises, will have to ask
posted by internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 at 9:28 AM on March 12, 2010

Those aren't "penises", IFDS,SN9. They're dildos. FFS.
posted by muddgirl at 9:30 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

Trolls don't burn out, they fade away.

They lived their life ...like a candle in the wind.
posted by The Whelk at 9:31 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Does someone want to see me flame out? I'm actually kind of fabulous at it.
posted by greekphilosophy at 9:32 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

Furthermore...

Go on...

odinsdream: You're just stalling now.

uncanny hengeman: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you?

Really sorry rtha, et al. It's just that every time I take a peek at the thread I spy yet another glib generalisation that causes me make a quick retort.

/I like to rebut
posted by uncanny hengeman at 11:44 AM on March 12 [+] [!]

At least you've cast yourself as a latterday Vizzini only seconds before he unwittingly poisons himself with the odorless, tasteless, dissolves-instantly-in-liquid toxin of Metafilter's deadly smackdown.
posted by zoomorphic at 9:32 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

The worst of Metafilter comes out to play.

At the risk of using an over-tired cliché, calling out homophobic, racist, sexist or derogatory comments is a feature, not a bug of this community.
posted by zarq at 9:32 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Maybe we need a post about the derogatory comments about Mississippi?
posted by Pollomacho at 9:36 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Those aren't "penises", IFDS,SN9. They're dildos. FFS.

To be fair, most of the people I know refer to them as like, their cocks, but I am generally too delicate and demure to use that word so I say penis and no one else says that. My inability to use colloquial slang to refer to penises is a bit embarrassing. I'm actually blushing right now.
posted by internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 at 9:37 AM on March 12, 2010

greekphilosophy - are there fireworks and sparkles?
posted by The Whelk at 9:39 AM on March 12, 2010

My inability to use colloquial slang to refer to penises is a bit embarrassing. I'm actually blushing right now.
posted by internet fraud detective squad, station number 9

But aren't you a private dick? :)
posted by zarq at 9:40 AM on March 12, 2010

Averagejoefilter:

She looks like an attention seeking LUG to me.

Sure, offensive and unnecessary.

Prom Lesbians: a feature, not a bug

Taken in a tolerant context, I don't find that offensive. There are a lots of reasons why lesbians are a bonus for any event, aside from the (apparent) perception that all men have lesbian-sex fetishes.

Someone said something similar above about diversity and got mocked, but I don't think it's that ridiculous to the younger generation. The opposite-sex comment ("gay men at a party are a feature, not a bug") wouldn't even mostly be concerned with the sexuality (and most of the women I've known who like sex get turned on by male-male gay sex. I mean, who's writing all that slashfic?)

Anyway, I'm guessing that most of the really offensive comments have been deleted, which is obviously the mods' prerogative and general site m.o.

What we you talking about again? ... Rosa Parks? It's hard for most of us to put ourselves in either situation, but I'd say this girl's actions seem as brave or braver, especially when you consider that Parks was working with probably much larger local support, and was really more of a tipping point than trailbreaker. Remember Claudette Colvin.

The Parks : McMillen analogy seems like a good one.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:41 AM on March 12, 2010

uncanny hengeman, this is the part where you issue the confession and demonstrate what you've realized about yourself. That's how we all respect you later.

Or you can just keep treading water, too chickenshit to explain your bigotry to the class.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:41 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

But that doesn't mean that they actually, like, want to grow a penis or like, have one grafted on. I don't know, probably a couple do.

To be fair, most of the people I know refer to them as like, their cocks

Well yes, but it's still different from "wanting a penis".

I'm a straight girl, so I can attest that there's a huge difference between having sex with a dildo and having sex with an actual living cock. Heck, I'm going to argue that there's a difference between having sex with a man and having sex with a trans woman who declined to have GRS, although I only know this anecdotally.

Just because a woman wants to be penetrated by something doesn't mean she secretly wants to be penetrated by a man's penis. Which is the claim that a lot of insecure straight guys like to make, amongst themselves, if they think they won't be called out for it.
posted by muddgirl at 9:43 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

Man, there are some horrendous editing errors up in there.
posted by muddgirl at 9:45 AM on March 12, 2010

FYI, if uncanny hengeman is in Australia, it's like some ungodly hour there, so y'all may have to wait a bit for a flameout.
posted by desjardins at 9:45 AM on March 12, 2010

Not when you are being repeatedly attacked and goaded into flaming out.

Gosh, yes, that would be bad, if it were a fair characterization of what happened here.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:49 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

her actions caused the prom cancellation.

Uncanny hengeman, you are so right. I know I've brought this up before and I don't want to be tiresome with it, but you know some friends of mine are lesbians and this one time it said in the newspaper that they were lesbians, and by letting it be in the paper like that, they caused this person to come into their house in the night later that week and burn their house down and try to kill them and their 14-month-old son. I am so glad to meet someone who finally understands cause and effect! You just keep on keepin' on.
posted by not that girl at 9:50 AM on March 12, 2010 [9 favorites]

My inability to use colloquial slang to refer to penises is a bit embarrassing. I'm actually blushing right now.

I know exactly what you mean. As I'm standing on my desk here in the office, doing the windmill with my... uh, smaller gentleman, I'm blushing quite a bit.
posted by quin at 9:51 AM on March 12, 2010

It's just that every time I take a peek at the thread I spy yet another glib generalisation that causes me make a quick retort.

Please tell me I'm not the only person finding this HILARIOUS in context of the callout..it's like reading a lost work from the Theatre of the Absurd school about how much someone can lack self-awareness.
posted by kkokkodalk at 9:54 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I think "cock" is way better than "dick." Does anyone say "dick" anymore, other than as a put-down?

Sometimes I say "weiner" to my wife, to be silly.
posted by Mister_A at 9:54 AM on March 12, 2010

Just because a woman wants to be penetrated by something doesn't mean she secretly wants to be penetrated by a man's penis. Which is the claim that a lot of insecure straight guys like to make, amongst themselves, if they think they won't be called out for it.

And you know this claim exists among themselves how? /rtha
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 9:55 AM on March 12, 2010

The LUG one is not only offensive but also irrelevant.

How so? That is my opinion. I think she seeks attention and she got her whole school prom shitcanned as a result.

There are so many mental disconnects in there, I'm having trouble connecting the dots. A few questions:

1) Why don't you think she isn't a REAL lesbian?
2) Why does she have to be a REAL lesbian to take a girl to prom?
3) Would it be wrong for a heterosexual girl to take another girl to prom?
4) Whose fault is it really that the prom was cancelled? Was it her fault, or that of the school administration?
5) Why do you think she did this "for the attention"? Do you think it has been pleasant for her?
6) What's wrong with doing it "for the attention", if that attention highlights on national news that her school thinks two girls can't go to prom together if they want?
7) Which is more important? A bunch of high schoolers get to participate in a school-sponsored bizarrely sexualized ritual for a night, or the civil rights of an oppressed minority are advanced?
8) If you lived in a world consisting almost entirely of homosexual people, where you were among the minority of closeted heterosexuals, how would you feel about taking someone of the same sex to your prom just to please the village elders? Would you do it? Or would you just stay home so as to not "rock the boat"?
9) Continuing the thought experiment, how would you feel if, deciding that it was your right to take someone of the opposite sex to prom if you wanted to, and it was bizarre, intrusive, and insulting for the school administration to dictate otherwise, you said you were going anyways, and then the school closed the whole prom so as not to expose the other students to your deviant behavior, and then people on the internet called you a "fake" heterosexual and suggested that you were really homosexual like everyone else, but you were just acting out like the little attention whoring hormonal teenager that you are.
posted by Salvor Hardin at 9:56 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

OK here we go.

Preamble I: If Carson Kressley – who is very famous and loved over here – can repeatedly refer to himself as a "fag" in a joking manner on prime time, high rating, free to air TV in Australia [not only himself, but his fag colleagues] without causing the slightest of ripples in Media Opinion Land then I'm gonna use the term "LUG" with a clear conscience. Deal with it, h8Rz.

Preamble II – and I HATE doing this to validate my opinion – but here goes: Y'all think I’m a redneck Western Australian homophobe commenting using my bigoted, homophobic point of view as a reference? Think again.

I have an extremely close blood relative [rhymes with "burst dozen"], early 20s who recently came out. She is clearly of the "mummy and daddy" type lesbian relationship. Of the 30 or so close relatives I was one of the first to welcome her [very butch] girlfriend into our extended family. What's not to welcome, by the way? Talk about a no-brainer.

I play currently mixed touch rugby with two butch lesbians as team mates. They're an item, but more of the "daddy and daddy" type lesbian relationship. No matter, they think I'm the duck's nuts and rightly so – I'm a top shelf human being [and boy, aren't they valuable, tough, fearless players... but I digress].

I was one of the 1% of straights who used to regularly attend a homosexual nightclub in my city way, waaaay before it was cool for straights to go to homosexual nightclubs. Admittedly I did it a] because my housemate dragged my unwilling ass there the first few times and b] they had the best sound system in Perth with the most amazing, bleeding edge, electronica music. Fags know how to party, y'all.

I have also known a few LUGS and what ever the attention seeking / confused / curious / experimenting male version is. Ten years on and they're all "let us never speak of it again" type attitude. "No, seriously! It never happened!!"

I have counted homosexuals as close friends and drinking partners for years. From bears to lipstick lesbians to heroin using, HIV positive, lost souls. I feel I am able to intelligently comment on the subject.

With that incredibly lengthy preamble aside, the reasons for my LUG comment were this. In the link I read...

** ...there was a photo of a fairly attractive, feminine looking girl posing for what looked like a self portrait.

** ...she said she wanted to wear a tux – which I took to mean she wanted to be the daddy.

With that pitiful amount of evidence [the same evidence y'all used to make your comments and / or flame me] I couldn't reconcile the two observations. So I made a THROWAWAY, ONE SENTENCE POST stating I thought she was a LUG. Implied but not stated: a seeker of attention.

A one sentence post. Deleted. Rephrased and reposted. Deleted. A general in-thread post on The Blue from a Mod and a personal MeMail from a Mod for me to shut the fark up and get my ass over here.

You fakirs have made me turn this into War and Peace. So please remember that first and foremost when you start stroking your keyboards in response to this post. It wasn't meant to be such a big deal. It especially wasn't "lulz, lesbian!" or homophobic in any form. Tough shit if that's what you thought.

/please be kind
//I don't like opening up like that
///well, I do like opening up like that, but normally for laffs, not to justify a previous comment amongst a barrage of comments from opinionophobes and repeated, self-congratulatory taunts to explain myself





posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:58 AM on March 12, 2010

You couldn't reconcile that a "fairly attractive, feminine looking girl" could be a lesbian who, ahem, "wanted to be the daddy?"
posted by jtron at 10:00 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

So, some of your best friends are gay?

Also, the duck's nuts? I've got to start saying that.
posted by box at 10:02 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

/please be kind

You're an idiot.

No, seriously, that was the kindest thing I could come up with.
posted by scrump at 10:03 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

Wow.

Please, and I mean this with all seriousness. Grow up.
posted by muddgirl at 10:04 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

What's that thing we do when we don't know what to say?

Oh yeah:

.
posted by Mister_A at 10:05 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Honestly, thanks for opening up, but Some of My Best Friends Are Gay? Really? Also, no, you do not "get to" use derogatory gay slang because Carson Kressley does. You do not. Full stop. Say whatever you like, of course, but that choice sounds gross and hateful.
posted by liketitanic at 10:05 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

Yeah, that was pretty weak. You should have just said "sorry", and that would have been a lot better than that sprawling "but I have ____ friends!" spew.

Fags know how to party, y'all.

Fail.
posted by cashman at 10:05 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

.
posted by ericb at 10:06 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

muddgirl: "I'm a straight girl, so I can attest that there's a huge difference between having sex with a dildo and having sex with an actual living cock. Heck, I'm going to argue that there's a difference between having sex with a man and having sex with a trans woman who declined to have GRS, although I only know this anecdotally."

I totally hear what you're saying and I believe that we're talking past each other

I guess I just wanted to talk about butches today because I like them

Maybe because this thread (and the other thread) really depressed me?

Anyway I think it's time for me to wander off into another part of the internet that is not full of this bullshit. Hope you weren't overly aggravated by my ignorant-sounding penis talk.
posted by internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 at 10:07 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Postamble I: Carson Kressley. Showing my age, but the first example that sprung to mind. He was the Ambassador for the Melbourne Cup, one of the biggest non tournament sporting events in the world [I really hate to use the term "sport" there, but again I digress]. A huge honour, and a testament to the tolerance and acceptance of the average Australian.

But Carson is a bit out of fashion now. Richard Reid is the American-import fag we all love now. And rightly so. The man is a crack up.

Postamble II: Given one of my posts above, yes, "redneck Western Australian homophobe" is also a tautology. Very clever, you lot.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:10 AM on March 12, 2010

.
posted by farishta at 10:10 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Wow. uncanny hengeman, this is one of the funniest fucking comments I've read in ages. Kudos.
posted by brundlefly at 10:11 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

uncanny hengeman: "I play currently mixed touch rugby with two butch lesbians as team mates. They're an item, but more of the "daddy and daddy" type lesbian relationship. "

Okay I guess I don't want to talk about butches in this thread. Eek.

Speaking of, though, I think that everyone should read this amazing NSFW blog, Sugarbutch Chronicles.
posted by internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 at 10:11 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Richard Reid is the American-import fag we all love now. And rightly so. The man is a crack up.

If Carson Kressley – who is very famous and loved over here – can repeatedly refer to himself as a "fag" in a joking manner on prime time, high rating, free to air TV in Australia [not only himself, but his fag colleagues] without causing the slightest of ripples in Media Opinion Land then I'm gonna use the term "LUG" with a clear conscience. Deal with it, h8Rz.

what the fuck
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:13 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

You couldn't reconcile that a "fairly attractive, feminine looking girl" could be a lesbian who, ahem, "wanted to be the daddy?"

Sure I could. It was just my opinion that wasn't the case. No biggie.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:13 AM on March 12, 2010

I'm not aggravated by you, IFDS. I just want to be explicitly clear that, even though I call a dildo "my gun", I don't secretly want to shoot myself in the vagina.
posted by muddgirl at 10:13 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I don't think "she likes the attention" is necessarily mutually exclusive with "the decision is wrong"

No, it isn't. But the first is completely irrelevant, and there's no reason to bring it up except as a justification or mitigation of the second. The decision is wrong, wrong, wrong no matter why she wanted to bring a girl to the prom.

Her actions caused the prom cancellation. The cancellation was wrong.

If you want to talk about causation in the "physical" sense of the word, sure. She was the specific girl who wanted to bring her girlfriend to the prom. But that sense of the word "cause" is trivial. It doesn't matter who wanted to bring their same-sex partner to the prom, or why they wanted to do it. And frankly you have no idea about her motivation. It's just idle speculation, and fairly insulting speculation at that.

In other news, some guy being mugged caused the mugging by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
posted by me & my monkey at 10:13 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

So, some of your best friends are gay?

No, not really, and not what I said. But gay people like me. No question.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:16 AM on March 12, 2010

homophobia and chauvinism are not the same thing. Label your outrage correctly.
posted by djduckie at 10:16 AM on March 12, 2010

Postamble I: Carson Kressley. Showing my age, but the first example that sprung to mind. He was the Ambassador for the Melbourne Cup, one of the biggest non tournament sporting events in the world [I really hate to use the term "sport" there, but again I digress]. A huge honour, and a testament to the tolerance and acceptance of the average Australian.

So now it's okay for you to throw LUG around?

You don't get it. You. Don't. Get. It. And the fact that you are implying that being kind to people close to you gives you some sort of free pass to say this kind of shit says much more about how you relate to them than the fact that you're willing to swig out of the same water bottle or whatever the fuck.
posted by liketitanic at 10:17 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

** ...there was a photo of a fairly attractive, feminine looking girl posing for what looked like a self portrait.

because a fairly attractive, feminine looking girl can't possibly be a lesbian, right?

** ...she said she wanted to wear a tux – which I took to mean she wanted to be the daddy.

because homosexuals can't possibly have a relationship without defining it in heterosexual terms

i don't care how many gay people you hang out with, you still don't totally get it

Anyway I think it's time for me to wander off into another part of the internet that is not full of this bullshit.

you mean that you prefer a place where YOUR bullshit is tolerated
posted by pyramid termite at 10:17 AM on March 12, 2010 [6 favorites]

So I made a THROWAWAY, ONE SENTENCE POST

You kept pulling it back in from the garbage after it was thrown out. One can only assume you thought it was pretty important.
posted by device55 at 10:17 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

No, not really, and not what I said. But gay people like me. No question.

Actually, when you marshal evidence of how many gay people you know and are nice to to legitimate behavior, it's exactly what you said.
posted by liketitanic at 10:18 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Also, no, you do not "get to" use derogatory gay slang because Carson Kressley does. You do not. Full stop. Say whatever you like, of course, but that choice sounds gross and hateful.

Yawn.

Support your claims or GTFO.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:18 AM on March 12, 2010

fairly attractive, feminine looking girl

uncanny hengeman, apart from your use of terms that I personally would avoid, the problem I have with what you've said is that in your defensive response, you (a) make decisions about people based on what they look like, which isn't nice or accurate, for that matter, and that you then (b) make assumptions about how those people behave—positive or negative!—based on your appearance-based decisions.

Ideally, people would not place so much value on someone's appearance, and would not categorize someone based on your assumptions—for example, not all gay people are great partiers.
posted by theredpen at 10:20 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

With respect uncanny hengeman:

Preamble I: If Samuel L Jackson – who is very famous and loved over here – can repeatedly refer to himself as a "nigger" in a joking manner in numerous movies and interviews without causing the slightest of ripples in Media Opinion Land and then I'm gonna try to justify using any kind of similar term because of it, I'm going to rightly get my ass kicked. Because there are some things that are ok if you are in the culture, that simply aren't if you are outside.

Deal with it, h8Rz.
posted by quin at 10:21 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

So now it's okay for you to throw LUG around?

You don't get it. You. Don't. Get. It. And the fact that you are implying that being kind to people close to you gives you some sort of free pass to say this kind of shit says much more about how you relate to them than the fact that you're willing to swig out of the same water bottle or whatever the fuck.

Yawn.

Support your claims or GTFO.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:21 AM on March 12, 2010

What's with the mommy/daddy explanations of lesbian relationships? Because

1) why does there have to be some sort of 'role' for people? Can't they just be partners? and
2) Ick. Just ick.
posted by aclevername at 10:21 AM on March 12, 2010 [12 favorites]

Yawn.

Support your claims or GTFO. (uncanny hengeman)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Goodbye thread, I'm not reading you anymore.
posted by ocherdraco at 10:22 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

Okay: you posted a lengthy treatise. I will respond point by point.

Preamble I: If Carson Kressley – who is very famous and loved over here – can repeatedly refer to himself as a "fag" in a joking manner on prime time, high rating, free to air TV in Australia [not only himself, but his fag colleagues] without causing the slightest of ripples in Media Opinion Land then I'm gonna use the term "LUG" with a clear conscience.

Please provide for us the context in which Carson Kressley referred to himself as a "fag." Something tells me it was probably NOT a context in which he was discussing a gay/lesbian rights issue.

Context is something that matters to word use.

Preamble II – and I HATE doing this to validate my opinion – but here goes: Y'all think I’m a redneck Western Australian homophobe commenting using my bigoted, homophobic point of view as a reference? Think again.

I have an extremely close blood relative [rhymes with "burst dozen"], early 20s who recently came out. She is clearly of the "mummy and daddy" type lesbian relationship. Of the 30 or so close relatives I was one of the first to welcome her [very butch] girlfriend into our extended family. What's not to welcome, by the way? Talk about a no-brainer.

I play currently mixed touch rugby with two butch lesbians as team mates. They're an item, but more of the "daddy and daddy" type lesbian relationship. No matter, they think I'm the duck's nuts and rightly so – I'm a top shelf human being [and boy, aren't they valuable, tough, fearless players... but I digress].

I was one of the 1% of straights who used to regularly attend a homosexual nightclub in my city way, waaaay before it was cool for straights to go to homosexual nightclubs. Admittedly I did it a] because my housemate dragged my unwilling ass there the first few times and b] they had the best sound system in Perth with the most amazing, bleeding edge, electronica music. Fags know how to party, y'all.

Until you said this just now, I had no idea you were Australian, so no, here's at least one person who thought you were a Western Australian. Everything else I was gleaning from what you posted in here.

Secondly: So you have a cousin and some friends who've come out and go to a gay club. Bully for you. However, the fact that you seem to assume that all same-sex relationshps have certain "types" they fall into tells me that...this is the only person you know who is out, and that you aren't aware that your perception of "typical glbt behavior" may still be a bit off.

I have also known a few LUGS and what ever the attention seeking / confused / curious / experimenting male version is. Ten years on and they're all "let us never speak of it again" type attitude. "No, seriously! It never happened!!"

You've KNOWN a few. That is the key word there. You do not KNOW this girl.

** ...there was a photo of a fairly attractive, feminine looking girl posing for what looked like a self portrait.

** ...she said she wanted to wear a tux – which I took to mean she wanted to be the daddy.

Here's another thing -- of all the lesbians I know, not a single one would know what the hell you were on about with this "being the daddy" crap.

With that pitiful amount of evidence [the same evidence y'all used to make your comments and / or flame me] I couldn't reconcile the two observations. So I made a THROWAWAY, ONE SENTENCE POST stating I thought she was a LUG. Implied but not stated: a seeker of attention.

And, AS YOU ADMIT, it was a pitiful amount of evidence. You were called on that lack of evidence. Which you yourself admit was "pitiful."

You fakirs have made me turn this into War and Peace. So please remember that first and foremost when you start stroking your keyboards in response to this post. It wasn't meant to be such a big deal. It especially wasn't "lulz, lesbian!" or homophobic in any form. Tough shit if that's what you thought.

If it was just a throwaway comment, there is no reason you should have gotten so bent out of shape at it getting deleted. Clearly, you had a Stake in your comment, otherwise you wouldn't have tried to repost it THREE TIMES, and then come in here and raised an unholy snit about having been OPREZZED FOR MY OPINIONS OMIGOD.

Conversely, statements you have a stake in NEED nothing less than a War-and-Peace argument, because if you can't be arsed to defend something, why should we be arsed reading it?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:23 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

L.U.G. as a piece of diction is awful (and I think more ageist than sexist) but seeing the gray come down on any poster like a pack of leukocytes sure is creepy.
posted by kid ichorous at 10:23 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

I knew it. I knew it. Probably everyone else knew it, too.

She's too pretty to be a lesbian -- at least, the kind of lesbian who's not attached at the hip with some buzzcut flannel-lovin' butch dyke that makes a pretty girl OK To Be Gay.

Jesus.
posted by harperpitt at 10:24 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

homophobia and chauvinism are not the same thing. Label your outrage correctly.

They're not literally "the same thing." But homophobia is one type of chauvinism.
posted by Jaltcoh at 10:25 AM on March 12, 2010

If Carson Kressley – who is very famous and loved over here – can repeatedly refer to himself as a "fag" in a joking manner on prime time, high rating, free to air TV in Australia [not only himself, but his fag colleagues] without causing the slightest of ripples in Media Opinion Land then I'm gonna use the term "LUG" with a clear conscience. Deal with it, h8Rz.

A lot of people who tend to offend others make the case that since in some context some people aren't offended by some sentiment or word, that sentiment or word is therefore not offensive and the only people who could be offended by it are thin-skinned humorless idiots. The reality is that different things are offensive in various contexts for various people, and you have to be aware of that when you say things.

A lot of people here have explained why they think your statements, however flippant and non-serious, were offensive to them. You can choose to say those kind of statements, but since you now know that they offend people, by doing so you are purposely being a dick. And many times when people post dickish comments in a thread on the Blue, those comments get deleted, no matter how nicely worded those dickish comments are.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:27 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Jeebus, sometimes I wonder if the newish guidelines for MeTa are a good idea. Giving the hook to relatively innocuous comments telling people to go fuck themselves while letting loads of happy horseshit like the pile in this pretty derailed conversation to fester doesn't seem like a great trade-off to me.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:28 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Yawn.

Support your claims or GTFO.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 1:21 PM on March 12 [+] [!]

Flagged as trolling. Twice.
posted by zarq at 10:28 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Constance McMillen’s appearance on CBS Early Show [video | 03:38].

Yeah, uncanny hengeman, just watching and listening to her, one can clearly tell she's just going through a phase and is desperate for attention.
posted by ericb at 10:28 AM on March 12, 2010

And my "postlogue" --

On behalf of my very dear childhood friend, who has been affected by such stereotypes negatively, I invite you to examine your behavior.

You will not I have not revealed either the gender or the sexual orientation of my friend. That is because, at the end of the day, such details TRULY do not matter, as respect for the inherant dignity of the individual to determine his or her own identity is something EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US DESERVES.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:29 AM on March 12, 2010

Anyway I think it's time for me to wander off into another part of the internet that is not full of this bullshit.

you mean that you prefer a place where YOUR bullshit is tolerated

pyramid termite, That wasn't me. So I'd appreciate it if you didn't tack it onto a post that clearly insinuates that I said it.

I ain't wandering off anywhere [boredom and / or need for sleep not withstanding]. I'm happy to answer any further criticisms.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:29 AM on March 12, 2010

pyramid termite, That wasn't me.

sorry, that was an accident

but do you have anything to say about how your stereotypes of lesbians inform your opinions on this story?

because they do - and an opinion based on false premises is not worth having
posted by pyramid termite at 10:31 AM on March 12, 2010

Anyway I think it's time for me to wander off into another part of the internet that is not full of this bullshit.

THAT WAS ME! BUT I DIDN'T DO IT YET! I GUESS I'M A MASOCHIST WHO LIKES TO READ STUPIDITY!

Bluh.
posted by internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 at 10:34 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Yeah, uncanny hengeman, just watching and listening to her, one can clearly tell she's just going through a phase and is desperate for attention.

ericb, I clearly and repeatedly stated I made my throwaway comment using the link in the FPP. So, 24 hours after the thread started, you found another link that you think disproves my theory?

Good for you, sizzlechest. I'm very proud of ya.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:34 AM on March 12, 2010

I think we have a cultural and communication rift here.

uncanny hengeman's been around MeFi for a while, and having met a few of the more baudy, ribald and rowdy lot that come Oz I'm getting it. I think I can solve this to my own satisfaction in a simple two part question.

Uncanny hengeman? Welcome to Woop Woop? And/or Priscilla, Queen of the Desert?

If 'Yea!' to both, fuck it. Let's go drink lager until it's not fucking hot anymore and the roos look good.
posted by loquacious at 10:35 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

It is my sincere hope that somewhere down the line you will look back at your behavior in this thread and cringe at how ignorant you sound. Because you sound really ignorant. Seriously.
posted by orville sash at 10:35 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

You fakirs have made me turn this into War and Peace

I do appreciate that we now seem to be Indian mendicants.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:35 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

So, 24 hours after the thread started, you found another link that you think disproves my theory?

I think President Bush is a cheetah! FIND A LINK TO PROVE ME WRONG!
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:37 AM on March 12, 2010 [6 favorites]

Seriously can anyone explain to me how friendship with any group of people disqualifies one from ever being capable of doing or saying or thinking something about about that group? Like, if I'm friends with a bunch of gay people, am I physically incapable of being homophobic? This has never made any sense to me.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:38 AM on March 12, 2010

Sizzlechest? Wowsers. I haven't thought about the Jerky Boys in damn near a decade. Awesome.

Did you guys have a favorite Jerky Boys character? I was a Frank Rizzo man, personally.
posted by EatTheWeak at 10:38 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

With that incredibly lengthy preamble aside, the reasons for my LUG comment were this. In the link I read...

** ...there was a photo of a fairly attractive, feminine looking girl posing for what looked like a self portrait.

** ...she said she wanted to wear a tux – which I took to mean she wanted to be the daddy.

So in your world, attractive, feminine looking girls can't be "real" lesbians.

I'm failing to parse the tux/daddy thing, but maybe that's because you're Australian and I'm American. In the U.S., lesbians who wear tuxes may or may not be butch, and since the "daddy" thing is a pretty specific sexual fetish. "Butch" and "daddy" are not the same thing. While a "daddy" may always have to be butch (not familiar with the fetish personally, so I don't know for sure), a butch lesbian is not automatically a "daddy." A butch lesbian is also not "the man" in the relationship, in case any of you out there are confused.
posted by rtha at 10:39 AM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

Pounds, baby. POUNDS.
posted by kid ichorous at 10:40 AM on March 12, 2010

sizzlechest?
posted by ericb at 10:42 AM on March 12, 2010

"Sizzlechest." "Farking." Just now getting bootleg copies of Jerky Boys albums from 1994 and registering for TotalFark Platinum and thinking they're both brilliant. Hey, sorry for the spoiler, but in a decade or so you're be hearing about a guy named "Borat."

"Very nice. I like. WHO LET THE DOGS OUT. WAZZZZZZUP" - uncanny hengeman, 2022
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:42 AM on March 12, 2010 [6 favorites]

Seriously can anyone explain to me how friendship with any group of people disqualifies one from ever being capable of doing or saying or thinking something about about that group? Like, if I'm friends with a bunch of gay people, am I physically incapable of being homophobic? This has never made any sense to me.

I think the premise is that 'if some members of a group accept me, then anything I do or say must also be acceptable to them.'
posted by zarq at 10:43 AM on March 12, 2010

Just googled sizzlechest. Damn, a lot of learnin' goin' on in here today.
posted by ericb at 10:43 AM on March 12, 2010

And, AS YOU ADMIT, it was a pitiful amount of evidence. You were called on that lack of evidence. Which you yourself admit was "pitiful."

Yep. And I'll admit again for ya, EmpressCallipygos.

Y'see, forums like this are built on people making comments with the evidence at hand [with the exceptions of MeFi greats like Malor and Pastabagel and a few others]. It makes news aggregating forums like this fun, interesting and addictive.

So from now on we're only allowed to post a comment if we've got an appropriate amount of evidence? Be careful what you wish for, tough guy.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:44 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

everyone here knows that if your bundles of made-up gay friends knew the kind of shit you were saying in this thread they wouldn't be your made-up gay friends anymore.

This doesn't make a lick of sense. You're not really helping anything here.

Everyone thinks you're a stunted unfunny child, and your name here will never mean shit, just like in your real life. ... You are a nobody, and you will always be a nobody.

Seriously, mods, is an appropriate way for people to talk to each other? Even for the gray.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 10:45 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I think the premise is that 'if some members of a group accept me, then anything I do or say must also be acceptable to them.'

Also the idea that only people who are the targets of offense are allowed to be offended, i.e. as a white male I can't be offended by sexism or racism.

And, in a slight change of topic, let's talk about John Carpenter's The Thing because I finally just got it on DVD.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:46 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Preamble I: If Carson Kressley – who is very famous and loved over here – can repeatedly refer to himself as a "fag" in a joking manner on prime time, high rating, free to air TV in Australia [not only himself, but his fag colleagues] without causing the slightest of ripples in Media Opinion Land then I'm gonna use the term "LUG" with a clear conscience.

You know, I used the exact same excuse when I kicked off my "Why are black guys so good at sports and Asians so good at math?" comedy tour, and, let me tell you, it did not go well.
posted by hiteleven at 10:46 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Jeebus, sometimes I wonder if the newish guidelines for MeTa are a good idea. Giving the hook to relatively innocuous comments telling people to go fuck themselves while letting loads of happy horseshit like the pile in this pretty derailed conversation to fester doesn't seem like a great trade-off to me.

I'm not sure which guidelines are newish, can you elaborate a little? Being a bit more aggressive about some of the over-the-top just-literally-saying-Fuck-You stuff is something that we probably should have done long ago and we've been doing it a bit more lately just to try and nudge down the overall GRAR levels, but it's a small detail.

This is a pretty frustrating and not-great metatalk thread in a lot of ways, but all in all I feel like (a) there's some decent community-discussion stuff in here along with the not so great stuff and (b) the original thread seems to be going a lot better than it was before the metatalk and cleanup stuff took place, so as far as that all goes this is Metatalk accomplishing some of the stuff it's meant to.

So I made a THROWAWAY, ONE SENTENCE POST stating I thought she was a LUG.

uncanny hengemen, you've done a very poor job of actually treating it like a throwaway one sentence post. I disagree with the casual usage of LUG as well, but this has gone a lot farther than just that would have and a hell of a lot of that is on how you've chosen to keep pushing on it, both in the original thread and more so in here.

If you are convinced that there's nothing wrong with you calling some high school girl a LUG and that your comment was no big deal and you have zero reason to meet people halfway or apologize, fine, that's totally your call, but what you should have done is dropped it pronto. The semi-coy, button-pushing responsiveness in this thread has sucked really badly and at this point is striking me as you pretty intentionally fucking with everybody and I wish you hadn't done that. And I really, really hope you will cut it the fuck out pronto. Close the browser and walk away or something.

That's regardless of whether you feel like people have piled on you, etc. I don't think the way folks have been reacting to your own performance here has been entirely great, and I can understand if you feel frustrated about getting such a strong reaction, but that doesn't excuse acting crappily.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:47 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

You haven't answered any real questions asked of you.

I wanna flag this as fantastic, but....

That because you don't give a shit about anyone, and everyone here knows that if your bundles of made-up gay friends knew the kind of shit you were saying in this thread they wouldn't be your made-up gay friends anymore.

Frankly, I don't know why you're planning on sticking around. Everyone thinks you're a stunted unfunny child, and your name here will never mean shit, just like in your real life. You talk shit about brave women even through you hide behind false bravado and bullshit. You are a nobody, and you will always be a nobody.

I also wanna flag this as trolling.


AND I ONLY GET ONE FLAG PER COMMENT!!!! AARRRRGH!!

Seriously man: don't attack the guy and urge him to flame out. That's not cool.
posted by zarq at 10:48 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

"Sizzlechest." "Farking." Just now getting bootleg copies of Jerky Boys albums from 1994 and registering for TotalFark Platinum and thinking they're both brilliant. Hey, sorry for the spoiler, but in a decade or so you're be hearing about a guy named "Borat."

"Very nice. I like. WHO LET THE DOGS OUT. WAZZZZZZUP" - uncanny hengeman, 2022

That all you got left? Ha ha.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:48 AM on March 12, 2010

Giving the hook to relatively innocuous comments telling people to go fuck themselves while letting loads of happy horseshit like the pile in this pretty derailed conversation to fester doesn't seem like a great trade-off to me.

Yeah. This thread is an insult to Western Australian rednecks.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:48 AM on March 12, 2010

Seriously, mods, is an appropriate way for people to talk to each other? Even for the gray.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 10:45 AM on March 12

No, it's okay, some of my best friends are assholes and I am an asshole myself so I can talk to assholes that way. lol! sizzlechest!
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:49 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

With regard to "The Thing" why has there been such a resurgence of late? My stepdad had this on videotape when I was a kid. In fact it was the only video we had so when I was bored enough that I could stand it I would watch it over and over. I actually had completely forgotten about it until recently when it seems to be popping up everywhere.
posted by stinker at 10:50 AM on March 12, 2010

Seriously, mods, is an appropriate way for people to talk to each other? Even for the gray.

No, it's pretty shitty and it's deleted now.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:51 AM on March 12, 2010

And, in a slight change of topic, let's talk about John Carpenter's The Thing because I finally just got it on DVD.

I'm totally down with that. It's my favorite movie! Carpenter's commentary is wonderful as well.
posted by brundlefly at 10:51 AM on March 12, 2010

Shakespeherian, The Thing is AWESOME. It's fun to watch great movies in random contexts. Once I saw that one in a flooding Villahermosa hotel during a thunderstorm.

uncanny hengeman, you're really making an ass of yourself. Your opinion was erroneous and not worth the consideration you continue to give it. And I envy your brave, tuff rugby mates for not having to see this side of you.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:51 AM on March 12, 2010

Y'see, forums like this are built on people making comments with the evidence at hand [with the exceptions of MeFi greats like Malor and Pastabagel and a few others]. It makes news aggregating forums like this fun, interesting and addictive.

And what also makes forums like this great is when others point out to you that you may not have enough evidence for such an assessment, that you admit that "hey, maybe you're right," consider the counterevidence that other people offer, and rethink your position.

So from now on we're only allowed to post a comment if we've got an appropriate amount of evidence?

That's not what I said. What I am saying, though, is that when others invite you to consider that you have a dearth of evidence, that maybe you should man up, grow a pair, and consider the possibility that YOU ARE WRONG rather than stomping your little feeties and saying "but it's MY OPINION and my BESTEST FRIENDS LIKE ME and so YOU SUCK FOR DELETING WHAT I SAID" or whatever.

Be careful what you wish for, tough guy.

If you are unable to ascertain from my name that I am not a "guy", then I would strongly urge you consider your ability to rightly ascertain other people's true sexual orientations.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:51 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

I wanna flag this as fantastic, but....

I also wanna flag this as trolling.

AND I ONLY GET ONE FLAG PER COMMENT!!!! AARRRRGH!!

That's where "other" comes in handy.
posted by Dojie at 10:51 AM on March 12, 2010

and I HATE doing this to validate my opinion – but here goes: Y'all think I’m a redneck Western Australian homophobe commenting using my bigoted, homophobic point of view as a reference? Think again.

I don't think you're a homophobe. But I do think that you're not willing to see how other people will read what you write. And that's really all that matters on a website where you write and post things.

Giving what you wrote the most charitable reading, it's still insulting, irrelevant and an excuse for the actual bad thing that happened - the actions of the school. I don't care how gay-friendly you are in "real life" - I don't care if you had to take a dick out of your mouth to write it - I can only judge what you wrote by its actual content.
posted by me & my monkey at 10:51 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

I think the premise is that 'if some members of a group accept me, then anything I do or say must also be acceptable to them.'

There's also an aspect to a lot of these kinds of discussions that they can be seen as being about racists and homophobes, rather than racist statements or homophobic statements. So to prove that they are not one of the "bad guys" they point out that they hang out with all kinds of people, which real racists and homophobes would never do. The personal details are in response to what they perceive as a personal attack, rather than a complaint about specific statements.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:54 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

what you should have done is dropped it pronto

Huh? I got asked numerous times to explain myself. Taunted, no less. Plus this is MetaTalk, correct? [QUICKLY CHECKS WEB ADDRESS] Designed for such arguments?

Look, I feel slightly intimidated arguing with a Mod. Especially when you're saying I should drop it. Your wish is my command.

/man, I had another 3-4 comments I wanted to reply to...
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:54 AM on March 12, 2010

Y'all think I’m a redneck Western Australian homophobe commenting using my bigoted, homophobic point of view as a reference? Think again.

You know why we shouldn't think that? Because it's a lame, unfair stereotype. Hey, here's an idea: let's stop using those all around, okay?
posted by theredpen at 10:54 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

No, it's pretty shitty and it's deleted now.
posted by cortex at 10:51 AM on March 12

We can still say "fag," right?

If Carson Kressley – who is very famous and loved over here – can repeatedly refer to himself as a "fag" in a joking manner on prime time, high rating, free to air TV in Australia [not only himself, but his fag colleagues] without causing the slightest of ripples in Media Opinion Land then I'm gonna use the term "LUG" with a clear conscience.

Fags know how to party, y'all.

Richard Reid is the American-import fag we all love now.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:55 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I feel slightly intimidated arguing with a Mod.

Then why on EARTH did you complain that the mods deleted your "throwaway" comment?

That's what STARTED this whole mess.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:56 AM on March 12, 2010

Carpenter's commentary is wonderful as well.

It really is. Last night I settled in to listen through the commentary (I do love me some audio commentaries; for whatever reason, the various ones on Kurosawa films always seem to be the best, regardless of who is speaking) only to discover that at some point I'd already listened to it. Which can be fun-- Coppola's commentaries are very fun and conversational, both for the Godfather trilogy and The Conversation, and I can listen to them again and again, but Carpenter and Russel talking seemed a little bit too familiar and so I turned it off. Oh well, maybe I'll just read The Things again.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:57 AM on March 12, 2010

Giving what you wrote the most charitable reading, it's still insulting, irrelevant and an excuse for the actual bad thing that happened - the actions of the school. I don't care how gay-friendly you are in "real life" - I don't care if you had to take a dick out of your mouth to write it - I can only judge what you wrote by its actual content.

What did I write on The Blue? No Googling or looking for cached pages. What did I write that was so bad, me & my monkey?

Sorry cortex. Now officially dropped!
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:58 AM on March 12, 2010

Huh? I got asked numerous times to explain myself. Taunted, no less.

With a gun to your head? Show some self-control and decline to perpetuate a shitty dynamic. This is not a new idea. You are not excused from bad behavior by other people's reactions to you.

And OC, Jess already tried to politely and privately ask you to chill out some in here too. Please help us out a little here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:58 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Richard Reid is the American-import fag we all love now.

PS I just noticed this-- isn't he the shoe bomber? I am confused.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:58 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

And OC, Jess already tried to politely and privately ask you to chill out some in here too. Please help us out a little here.
posted by cortex at 10:58 AM on March 12

Sorry; I dropped it until he started dropping "fag" indiscriminately. I really don't understand why that's okay.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:00 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

So from now on we're only allowed to post a comment if we've got an appropriate amount of evidence?

Hm. I would say, if that comment consists of an unwarranted attack on a young woman that baselessly mocks her sexual identity, then, yes, that's the sort of thing I am okay with mods deleting, and is the sort of thing people might want to think about twice before posting.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:00 AM on March 12, 2010 [9 favorites]

I'm not sure which guidelines are newish, can you elaborate a little? Being a bit more aggressive about some of the over-the-top just-literally-saying-Fuck-You stuff is something that we probably should have done long ago and we've been doing it a bit more lately just to try and nudge down the overall GRAR levels, but it's a small detail

Yeah, I meant the anti-GRAR initiative; it's just my personal thing, but I find the Fuck You Bucko stuff less crappy than uncanny hengeman's weaselly nonsense.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:01 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

We can still say "fag," right?

There is a difference between using the word fag and the sort of taunting/bullying language you're repeatedly using. I asked you nicely and privately to dial it back and I'd prefer not to drag this through MeTa, but please consider this a more public request to not use MeTa as a public thrashing venue.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:02 AM on March 12, 2010

anti-GRAR initiative

God I love language.
posted by shakespeherian at 11:03 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

uncanny hengeman: Optimus farking Chyme. There he goes again. That bigoted American...

dude... don't provoke OC. That's like begging for a online ass-kicking of apocalyptic proportions. OC is an avalanche of mock. A shitstorm of ridicule. A category five hurricane of disparaging japery.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 11:07 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

dude... don't provoke OC. That's like begging for a online ass-kicking of apocalyptic proportions.

And on a more serious note, the mods just also asked him to stop, and provoking him after that would be a really, really immature and dickish thing to do.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:09 AM on March 12, 2010

Baby_Balrog is making me thing that OC is like La Magra, the Blood God: He's a hurricane. An act of God. Anyone caught in his path will instantly be turned. Everyone you've ever known... everyone you've ever fucking loved
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:10 AM on March 12, 2010 [10 favorites]

What was the name of the Jerky Boys Jewish character? I wanna say "Saul Rosenberg?" ... I didn't like that one so much ... basically just an overcooked Woody Allen impression. The gay character was kinda lame, too. And their vaguely Middle Eastern character was pretty much a racial slur.

Crap, if I go back and listen to those old albums, I'm just gonna be embarrassed about what 15-year-old ETW found funny, aren't I? Ha geez ...
posted by EatTheWeak at 11:11 AM on March 12, 2010

Richard Reid is the American-import fag we all love now.

Those explosive shoes were FABULOUSSSS!!!
posted by Pollomacho at 11:11 AM on March 12, 2010

Words I currently dislike, in part because of this thread:

-- fah
-- opinionophobe
-- y'all
-- fag
-- daddy/mommy
-- LUG
-- shirtlifter
-- sizzlechest [WTF nerds]
-- the suggested incredibly awful alternatives to "lesbian"
-- I could go on

These words are the anti-HOPPITAMOPPITA.
posted by theredpen at 11:11 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Oh, sure, but y'all already knew king cake before this thread started? I don't think so.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:13 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

anti? Does HOPPITAMOPPITA mean something good? I thought it referred to histrionics. Seems like those words are more HOPPITAMOPPITA triggers.
posted by EatTheWeak at 11:15 AM on March 12, 2010

There is a difference between using the word fag and the sort of taunting/bullying language you're repeatedly using.

If you say so. I don't see much difference.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:15 AM on March 12, 2010 [8 favorites]

I have this guideline I use for all on-line and mailing list discussions that keeps me out of flamewars pretty well, which is good because they make me all tense and shaky. It works whether I'm the person in the right or, once in awhile, in the wrong. The guideline is: If someone doesn't understand you after your second attempt to explain yourself, they never will and there's no point in trying again.

1. I make comment.

2. Person or persons respond criticizing, complaining, telling me I'm wrong, whatever.

3. I attempt to clarify my comment.

4. Person or persons respond, etc.

5. I do nothing, and continue doing nothing indefinitely.
posted by not that girl at 11:17 AM on March 12, 2010 [22 favorites]

I was a Frank Rizzo man, personally.

Me too. Frank Rizzo.

Even as a teen, I actually was mostly repelled by the exploitative (and sorta racist) nature of their famous prank calls, but I had free cable when the movie came out and watched it far too many times. The Jerky Boys Movie: Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. I know it killed their "career," but I still love it in the same way I love Clifford.

Preamble I: If Carson Kressley – who is very famous and loved over here – can repeatedly refer to himself as a "fag" in a joking manner ...

Jay-Z uses the word "nigger" (or "nigga") but if I use either of those variants, it would be received quite differently (regardless of whether it's "OK" for either of us to use it.)

Seriously can anyone explain to me how friendship with any group of people disqualifies one from ever being capable of doing or saying or thinking something about about that group?

Well, if the majority of my friends are gay men, it would be ridiculous for me to say something like "gay men and straight men shouldn't be friends."

But I know what you're saying, i.e. having friends who are "____" does not excuse (nor inhibit, as this case makes obvious) someone from making hateful comments about "____." And that's true.

If you say so. I don't see much difference.

Me neither.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:18 AM on March 12, 2010

If you say so. I don't see much difference.

As speech acts, there's a difference between user x calling someone a fag and user x saying "here's an example of apparently permissable use of the word 'fag'".

That's not to say that there's automatically nothing problematic about the latter sort of thing—it depends a lot on context and I find it a little obnoxious where it's happened here for a couple reasons—but there's a very important difference between the two. The former is the sort of thing we would delete as soon as we saw it, generally speaking.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:20 AM on March 12, 2010

Yeah, I should have kept that inside my own brain, I guess . . . HOPPITAMOPPITA just cracks me up, so now I think of it as a positive. Sorry.
posted by theredpen at 11:22 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

** ...she said she wanted to wear a tux – which I took to mean she wanted to be the daddy.

Two of my straight female friends wore tuxes to their high school prom. It didn't mean that they wanted to "be men", it meant that they wanted to wear tuxedos. Not every woman wants to make a one-time purchase of a candy colored princess gown for a single night. Not every woman wants to buy into the prom hoopla. Not every woman feels comfortable wearing dresses when their normal mode of attire is jeans and tee-shirts. None of these things says fuck-all about their sexuality. To assume it does is pretty much ignoring all other variables about the decision in favor of one highly subjective and untested assumption.

Frankly, if you know anything about the myriad reasons people choose to wear certain things, the ludicrousness of the premise is such that one is sorely tempted to make uncharitable assumptions about the (lack of) real-world experience of the person who promotes it.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:22 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

Is it time for shmoopy yet?
posted by languagehat at 11:24 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

It's always time for shmoopy!
posted by Floydd at 11:25 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Haaaang on Schmoopy,
Schmoopy hang on.
posted by Mister_A at 11:25 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

4. Person or persons respond, etc.

5. I do nothing, and continue doing nothing indefinitely.

I do pretty much the same thing, except that I give myself two responses rather than one.

One thing that makes step 5 hard to do is if for some reason their last comment takes my comment out of context or otherwise misrepresents what I'm saying, it's hard to let that stand and not make one last comment to reject it, because I think "Now everyone reading this is going to think that's what I meant, when really I didn't mean that at all." But then I realize that people reading that comment should be smart enough to figure out that I'm being misrepresented, and don't need me to point it out to them.
posted by burnmp3s at 11:26 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Some of my best friends are shmoopy.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:26 AM on March 12, 2010

get on the schmoop John B.

I have made that joke 5 times now.

It never gets old.





NEVER!
posted by The Whelk at 11:27 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I think we need to steer this thread back to what's important: John Carpenter.

What about Big Trouble In Little China? That's an awesome movie.
posted by brundlefly at 11:27 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

He's not heavy, he's my schmoopy.
posted by The Whelk at 11:27 AM on March 12, 2010

MetaTalk has many hells.
posted by The Whelk at 11:27 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

Chinese Standoff. Don't make a sound.
posted by kid ichorous at 11:29 AM on March 12, 2010

HOPPITAMOPPITA
posted by loquacious at 11:29 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

And MetaHell has much talking.
posted by Mister_A at 11:29 AM on March 12, 2010

theredpen - Oh no, I wasn't trying to criticize! Please don't apologize! I also adore the term. Makes me smile every time and, no, I don't believe it is used correctly if it is not used in ALL CAPS.

I feel I should clarify a bit. See, I'm just coming off a quarter spent studying the difficulties and possibilities of instruction on grammar and English language structures. As an English and literature major, the opportunity to discuss and debate the use of neologisms with a Mefite named "theredpen" was absolutely irresistible, you see. Certainly didn't mean to make you feel bad or as if you should keep any thoughts in your brain! :)
posted by EatTheWeak at 11:30 AM on March 12, 2010

I'm still trying to figure out the shoe bomber thing.
posted by fixedgear at 11:32 AM on March 12, 2010

He put a bomb in his shoe and now we all have to make sure we wear clean socks to the airport.
posted by The Whelk at 11:34 AM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

Would you stop rubbing your body up against mine, because I can't concentrate when you do that.
posted by loquacious at 11:36 AM on March 12, 2010

As speech acts, there's a difference between user x calling someone a fag and user x saying "here's an example of apparently permissable use of the word 'fag'".

Well, yeah. I don't care to argue over precisely when and where the use of otherwise offensive names is acceptable, but I'll concede that there are such occasions. In this thread, however, I don't see much difference between saying "Fags love to party, y'all" and "Get stuffed, you ignorant sheep-fucker."
posted by octobersurprise at 11:36 AM on March 12, 2010 [6 favorites]

fixedgear: "I'm still trying to figure out the shoe bomber thing"

bombs -> flaming
shoes -> homosexuality
???

yeah doesn't make much sense
posted by idiopath at 11:37 AM on March 12, 2010

Astro Zombie: "Oh, sure, but y'all already knew king cake before this thread started? I don't think so."

I had a king cake. I got the baby and was very excited because it was purple and shiny. Then I did something with the baby, put it down somewhere. I thought I lost it but actually my husband was taking care of it. He had it in his pocket.

What a metaphor!
posted by internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 at 11:39 AM on March 12, 2010

He put a bomb in his shoe and now we all have to make sure we wear clean socks to the airport.

Oh man, the first time I was made to take off my shoes at the airport, I was wearing some really sad socks. Both of my big toes were sticking out, hillbilly style. It was a little embarrassing.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:40 AM on March 12, 2010

In this thread, however, I don't see much difference between saying "Fags love to party, y'all" and "Get stuffed, you ignorant sheep-fucker."

One is aimed at specific member of the community and one is not.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 11:40 AM on March 12, 2010

Metafilter: What a metaphor!
posted by iamabot at 11:40 AM on March 12, 2010

The thing is, Richard Reid is from UK-istan, not Jesusland! I do not know if he meets any definition of "fag."
posted by Mister_A at 11:41 AM on March 12, 2010

How many hellametas make a flameout?
posted by rtha at 11:42 AM on March 12, 2010

He put a bomb in his shoe and now we all have to make sure we wear clean socks to the airport.

Clean socks mean that the terrorists have won. My buddy Scott refers to the dimples of Venus as "spunkwells". I'm not sure if this is delicious or horrifying.
posted by tigrefacile at 11:43 AM on March 12, 2010

Wow, that was crazy reading.

All I think I can add is what my Dad told me at an early age, and has served decently well at keeping me saine - "opinions are like assholes, neither of them usually have much to do with facts".
posted by pupdog at 11:44 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

In light of subsequent information I have to retract my earlier charitable interpretation of uncanny hengeman's comment.
posted by BrotherCaine at 11:44 AM on March 12, 2010

In an attempt to learn more about this story, I googled around and found that the header for the Itawamba County Mississippi Development Board's Local Attractions webpage is a picture of a brick wall. Also, Tammy Wynette was born in Itawamba County, and the Sweet Tea Festival is coming up soon.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 11:45 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Every year I try and make one or two king cakes, and the dough turns out fine, but once I try and braid the cake it always turns into this nightmarish thing where a third is burnt and a third is still gooey in the inside.

But the third that's just right? Deeeelicious.

This may or may not be a metaphor for anything.
posted by PMdixon at 11:46 AM on March 12, 2010

EatTheWeak, how nice -- no need to explain. (I always feel like I should keep things in my brain; it's not you!) Your course of study sounds fascinating. I doubt I have anything useful to offer, but feel free to send me a note/MeMail if you ever want to chat.
posted by theredpen at 11:47 AM on March 12, 2010

Two of my straight female friends wore tuxes to their high school prom. It didn't mean that they wanted to "be men", it meant that they wanted to wear tuxedos. Not every woman wants to make a one-time purchase of a candy colored princess gown for a single night. Not every woman wants to buy into the prom hoopla. Not every woman feels comfortable wearing dresses when their normal mode of attire is jeans and tee-shirts. None of these things says fuck-all about their sexuality. To assume it does is pretty much ignoring all other variables about the decision in favor of one highly subjective and untested assumption.

There's something about this statement that bothers me, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Our society defines certain loose gender roles for men and women. At a formal event like a prom those roles are traditionally magnified.

Hypothetically, isn't it possible that wearing a tuxedo to such an event would make a statement to the outside world (even inadvertently) about how those women view their own gender role in society? I mean, if the women at an event traditionally wear one type of clothing and the men another, then if someone switches to the other gender's attire, it's hard to argue that there's no other context involved. I realize and agree that it is wrong for an outsider to make assumptions about anyone's sexuality, but it seems unrealistic to think that they wouldn't jump to a conclusion about gender roles in such a situation.

On the other hand, I don't agree with uncanny's blithe assumption that he knows that young woman's intentions, either.
posted by zarq at 11:47 AM on March 12, 2010

The former is the sort of thing we would delete as soon as we saw it, generally speaking.

I'm assuming that by "the former" you mean "user x calling someone a fag," and that the reason uncanny hengemen's comment still stands (despite it being an example of user x calling someone a fag) is because this is metatalk and there's a level of accountability for your words here and bad shit is at times allowed to stay here.

'cause that comment in particular is fucking foul. much of what he's said in this thread is, too, but that in particular is fucking foul.
posted by shmegegge at 11:47 AM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

Is "redneck Western Australian" a common stereotype? If Alberta and Bavaria are the Texas of their respective countries, is WA the equivalent in Australia?
posted by Skorgu at 11:49 AM on March 12, 2010

I'm still trying to figure out the shoe bomber thing

Really, I mean this guy is a dangerous terrorist, why would these crazy Australians be looking to him for make-up tips?
posted by Pollomacho at 11:50 AM on March 12, 2010

Well sure it was a war. And anybody that showed up was gonna join Lem Lee in the Hell of Being Cut to Pieces.
posted by Babblesort at 11:50 AM on March 12, 2010

Can somebody please explain to me why it's okay for straight people to say "fag" because I'm not really understanding that.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:51 AM on March 12, 2010 [14 favorites]

Did you know I have never seen Big Trouble in Little China? I know! But at this point I am afraid that I won't like it, because it's probably one of those things people love more than is maybe reasonable for nostalgia factors, like they way I love The Fifth Element although it's really pretty stupid and I don't expect people to like it if they see it now.
posted by shakespeherian at 11:51 AM on March 12, 2010

In an attempt to learn more about this story, I googled around and found...

I learned that Richard reveals all the hot gossip from the darkest nightclubs on the Sub-Sunset Strip, and that the "other materials" are (indeed!) almost universally non-porous (when not vegetable).
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 11:56 AM on March 12, 2010

How many hellametas make a flameout?

Say five hellametas and one our father and you will be absolved.
posted by fixedgear at 11:57 AM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Pope Guilty: "Can somebody please explain to me why it's okay for straight people to say "fag" because I'm not really understanding that"

The way I read it was as an attempt to establish that he has nothing in particular against young lesbians, but rather he is someone who lightheartedly uses hateful slurs regarding various other minorities as well.
posted by idiopath at 11:57 AM on March 12, 2010 [15 favorites]

If you don't like Big Trouble, there is a real possibility that you don't have a soul.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:58 AM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

What did I write on The Blue? No Googling or looking for cached pages. What did I write that was so bad, me & my monkey?

You mentioned "LUG" right? That's all I really need to know. It's not "so bad" - on the scale of badness from 1 to 10 it's probably right down there at 1 or 1.5 or so. But the point is, it's irrelevant, it casts unwarranted aspersions on someone, and it acts as an excuse for the bad behavior of others. I don't get why this is so hard for you to understand. It's another way of saying "she asked for it".
posted by me & my monkey at 11:59 AM on March 12, 2010

As far as this thread goes, the cure is worse than the disease. Nothing worse than a whole bunch of people absolutely certain they're right and only too happy to let you know it.
posted by stinkycheese at 11:59 AM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

No, there's worse stuff than that. Lima beans.
posted by Mister_A at 12:00 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Is "redneck Western Australian" a common stereotype? If Alberta and Bavaria are the Texas of their respective countries, is WA the equivalent in Australia?

This should be made more general and moved to AskMeFi as it could be a fantastic question...what is the stereotypical redneck part of your country? I imagine some of the answers would be hugely interesting, like, "Here in Riga we're always making fun of those guys from Bauskas novads".
posted by hiteleven at 12:02 PM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

If you don't like Big Trouble, there is a real possibility that you don't have a soul.

That's why the bottle didn't slice. My mind and my spirit are goin' north and south.
posted by loquacious at 12:02 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Black Blood of the Earth!
posted by brundlefly at 12:03 PM on March 12, 2010

As far as this thread goes, the cure is worse than the disease. Nothing worse than a whole bunch of people absolutely certain they're right and only too happy to let you know it.

yeah man i mean people self-righteously condemning homophobia is SO MUCH WORSE than actual homophobia why wont those libs just shut up and leave me alone when i'm belittling people based on their sexuality
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:03 PM on March 12, 2010 [16 favorites]

Isn't Latvia just a place that Tolkien made up?
posted by Mister_A at 12:03 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Can somebody please explain to me why it's okay for straight people to say "fag" because I'm not really understanding that.

What about when I need to explain that I needed to burn the faggot because it was queer? ("bundle of sticks" and "odd", naturally.)

Language makes us gay.
posted by quin at 12:03 PM on March 12, 2010

Isn't Latvia just a place that Tolkien made up?

No, but it's post-EU economic boom was apparently a work of fantasy, so you're not far off.
posted by hiteleven at 12:06 PM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

As far as this thread goes, the cure is worse than the disease. Nothing worse than a whole bunch of people absolutely certain they're right and only too happy to let you know it.

I'd be curious to see you get specific with this charge. What, precisely, is it that that a large group of people in this thread are sure they're right about that is so annoying?
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:10 PM on March 12, 2010

Two things:

1.) The Thing is one of my favorite Carpenter movies ever, right up there with Escape From New York and In the Mouth of Madness. It's the first DVD I ever bought, and I still occasionally put it on because my cat is intensely fascinated by the opening scene with the not-dog running through the snow.

2.) A category five hurricane of disparaging japery

I am stealing the hell out of this for my business cards.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 12:10 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

yeah man i mean people self-righteously condemning homophobia is SO MUCH WORSE than actual homophobia why wont those libs just shut up and leave me alone when i'm belittling people based on their sexuality

If you quickly crane your neck waaaaaay up high, you may see the point flying over your head. The kind of self-righteous group condemnation going on in this thread is worse than just about any single user comment I can imagine, be it outright sexism, racism, or just plain misanthropy. I have a one year old child growing up in my house and I follow her around all day long saying "no" or "bad" until the words have practically lost all meaning but even I'm overwhelmed and be-numbed by the flood of naysaying here.
posted by stinkycheese at 12:12 PM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

uncanny hengeman: Y'all think I’m a redneck Western Australian homophobe

I'm quite sure that many people in this thread don't think you are "a redneck Western Australian homophobe". They just think you made one unnecessary baseless comment that could be hurtful. The original discussion was not about your overall character. It was about one statement that you made that was labeled homophobic. It is possible, through lapse of judgment, to make a homophobic statement and not be a homophobe. You assumed that everyone labeled you a "redneck Western Australian homophobe" based on one "throwaway comment" that you made. As I hope you can see from your own example, people do not like being labeled, especially when there is little supporting evidence for that label. I hope you can now empathize a bit with the lesbian girl in the original post, now that you know how hurtful it can be to receive a label such as LUG or homophobe without sufficient supporting evidence.
posted by Procloeon at 12:13 PM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

Not every woman feels comfortable wearing dresses when their normal mode of attire is jeans and tee-shirts.

Thanks for adding this. I coached a young woman once who, though (supposedly) heterosexual (married with children now), very much had a traditional "tomboy" fashion sense.

She went stag to her prom, wearing a tux. Today the public might naturally assume she was a lesbian. I don't think that will be the case in another generation.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:13 PM on March 12, 2010

If you don't like Big Trouble, there is a real possibility that you don't have a soul.

Alright, Imma watch it this weekend. I hope this thread is still open so no one has to wonder eternally what I think of it! IT IS SO IMPORTANT
posted by shakespeherian at 12:13 PM on March 12, 2010

. What, precisely, is it that that a large group of people in this thread are sure they're right about that is so annoying?

They're sure that as long as the biggest ass in the room is the only one who's behaviour will be remembered they can snipe away and pile on and not have people remember them in a bad light for it.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:13 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

uncanny hedgeman, if you're still reading, the problem with acting like an asshole for rhetorical purposes is that a lot of folks who don't know you very well will probably just assume you're an asshole and not look for deeper or more subtle meaning in what you write.
posted by kalessin at 12:14 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

but even I'm overwhelmed and be-numbed by the flood of naysaying here.

to repeat the request for you to be more specific:

you're saying that you're overwhelmed by people naysaying the use of the word "fag?" is that what you're saying?
posted by shmegegge at 12:16 PM on March 12, 2010

If you quickly crane your neck waaaaaay up high, you may see the point flying over your head. The kind of self-righteous group condemnation going on in this thread is worse than just about any single user comment I can imagine, be it outright sexism, racism, or just plain misanthropy.

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there. And I would say the amount of condemnation is not prompted by the original comment, but by the commenters increasingly bizarre defense of it.

But I am happy to be in a community that has very little tolerance for intolerant comments. And if you go back through the thread, you'll see that, rather than blanket condemnation, a lot of the comments request further explanation, or give the commenter a chance to explain the comment, or politely responds with disagreement. This is not quite the pitchfork festival you seem to suggest it is.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:17 PM on March 12, 2010 [9 favorites]

Escape from New York is great, but I have to love Escape from LA just a little bit more because it's got Bruce Campbell and Snake surfing on a tidal wave and gunning down Lewis from Revenge of the Nerds.

Still the "computer rendered" vector graphic version of New York that opens EfNY, that is actually a hand painted model almost pings the nerd part of my brain to push it back into the top spot.
posted by quin at 12:17 PM on March 12, 2010

♥ STINKYCHEESE SCHMOOPY PILE-ON♥
posted by Mister_A at 12:18 PM on March 12, 2010

stinkycheese: "Nothing worse than a whole bunch of people absolutely certain they're right and only too happy to let you know it."

His behavior in this thread was pretty much the picture of someone inviting a community to play a game of string up the scapegoat with him as said goat.

complaining because your comments got deleted and repeating what people have called offensive without clarification or apology is pretty much saying "hey, everyone vent your spleens on me for a few hours days, I don't mind" in metatalk-speak.
posted by idiopath at 12:19 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

you're saying that you're overwhelmed by people naysaying the use of the word "fag?" is that what you're saying?

Not even close.
posted by stinkycheese at 12:19 PM on March 12, 2010

Sweet tea is wrong.
posted by everichon at 12:20 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I don't know if LUG itself is as horrible as some things uncanny hengeman could have said instead, but it does require some assumptions about Ms. McMillen that are unwarranted, insulting and ultimately deny her any right to self-identity. So there's that (leaving aside the general disregard for lesbians that is required to use that term in the first place).

The more important issue, and one that unfortunately has been glossed over by nearly everyone in this thread, is that uncanny hengeman is blaming her for the school administrators' decision to eliminate the prom for all students. The fact is that the Itawamba County school board made that decision, not her. She had nothing to do with it, because it is wasn't going to be her bringing another woman as her date, it would be another unfortunate victim of bigotry another year.

The real offense that uncanny hengeman perpetrates is blaming the victim, and in that he is no different and worth of as much disgust as the people who run that school board, who are trying to do the same thing: goad others into blaming Ms. McMillen for the prom being cancelled, through their hatred of gays and lesbians.

Shame on them and shame on him.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:22 PM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

Not even close.

but you're not gonna get more specific about that, huh? not gonna maybe provide some detail about what you're talking about, even though a few of us are having difficulty figuring out what types of comments you're specifically bothered by and have asked you for clarification.
posted by shmegegge at 12:22 PM on March 12, 2010

Where ya drinking this weekend, Mister_A? There are now two competing bus routes.
posted by fixedgear at 12:22 PM on March 12, 2010

I have a one year old child growing up in my house and I follow her around all day long saying "no" or "bad" ...

Heh: "Discipline is not just stopping children from doing something or punishing children for unacceptable behavior. Discipline means teaching."

I would hope that's what the motivation is here, i.e. people teaching other people why their comments were received the way they were.

The kind of self-righteous group condemnation going on in this thread is worse than just about any single user comment I can imagine

What's so wrong about "group condemnation" of misbehavior? Peer pressure is not always a bad thing. One group of my friends has quite successfully stopped one of us from making racist and sexist remarks, something he used to do all the time. (It's also quite possible he finally "grew up.")
posted by mrgrimm at 12:22 PM on March 12, 2010

Sweet tea is wrong.

:(
This statement marginalizes my opinions re: tea that is sweet.

Meanwhile, much of this thread has filled my heart with love, and was soothign delight after reading a bunch of hateful jibberjabber on different newspaper sites re: teens bringing their girlfriends to the prom.
posted by smallvictories at 12:23 PM on March 12, 2010

Oh I may just stay home and watch movies with this weather, fixedgear...
posted by Mister_A at 12:24 PM on March 12, 2010

I'm going to make a note to myself that if I ever feel like I need a lot of attention from internet strangers, I should accuse someone else of just wanting attention. I'm calling it my "Troll Until Graduation "strategy.

If I put it somewhere beneath "maintain a shred of dignity" on the list, it'll never get implemented.
posted by ServSci at 12:24 PM on March 12, 2010

If you don't like Big Trouble, there is a real possibility that you don't have a soul.

You know how some people cherish having been at Woodstock? I cherish having seen Big Trouble in Little China at the theater.

(As a working actor, Kim Cattrall doesn't get the recognition she deserves. Say "Kim Cattrall" and most people think of Sex and the City, Star Trek VI, Big Trouble in Little China, and maybe City Limits, Mannequin, and Porky's. But, holly hell, even I didn't remember how much good, bad, and so-bad-it's-good stuff she's been in. Her career encompasses a whole generation of pop culture, from Quincy, M.E. to The Simpsons and SATC.)
posted by octobersurprise at 12:25 PM on March 12, 2010

I am happy to be in a community that has very little tolerance for intolerant comments.

That's a funny sentence.

...if you go back through the thread, you'll see that, rather than blanket condemnation, a lot of the comments request further explanation, or give the commenter a chance to explain the comment, or politely responds with disagreement. This is not quite the pitchfork festival you seem to suggest it is.

I see one thing, you see something else. You're not alone in what you see and neither am I.
posted by stinkycheese at 12:26 PM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

I'm pretty surprised no one has jumped in to defend The Fifth Element.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:26 PM on March 12, 2010

Wow, this is precious!
posted by Miko at 12:27 PM on March 12, 2010

I adore The Fifth Element. That doesn't mean I can deny that it's cheesy as hell, though.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:27 PM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

That's a funny sentence.

It's only funny if you buy into the idea that tolerance requires tolerating intolerance. I think tolerance requires confronting intolerance.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:28 PM on March 12, 2010 [6 favorites]

but you're not gonna get more specific about that, huh?

I think the pile-on in this thread is Metafilter (or Metatalk, if you prefer) at its worst. Is that clear enough?
posted by stinkycheese at 12:28 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

I think the pile-on in this thread is Metafilter (or Metatalk, if you prefer) at its worst. Is that clear enough?

No.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:29 PM on March 12, 2010

Yeah, I actually meant to say something about that. The Fifth Element, while no Big Trouble..., is pretty awesome as well.
posted by brundlefly at 12:30 PM on March 12, 2010

Ok...?
posted by stinkycheese at 12:30 PM on March 12, 2010

I like the 5th Element cause it looks like French Sci-Fi Comics: The Movie.
posted by The Whelk at 12:31 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Stinkycheese, what is your vision of a positive outcome here?
posted by restless_nomad at 12:32 PM on March 12, 2010

Everyone sends me a dollar.
posted by stinkycheese at 12:33 PM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

But seriously, what? Just don't endlessly pile on. It's simple really.
posted by stinkycheese at 12:34 PM on March 12, 2010

Ok, that's pretty much what I wanted to know.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:34 PM on March 12, 2010

Everyone sends me a dollar.

Ah, so you're trolling. Got it.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:35 PM on March 12, 2010

stinkycheese: "I think the pile-on in this thread is Metafilter (or Metatalk, if you prefer) at its worst."

Yeah. I think in the future someone who feels like trolling should just invite Optimus Chyme to a one on one chat session, and those of us who would like to rubberneck could just read the logs, which would surely be full of hilarity and triumphant putdowns. That would definitely be more fair, and I am sure Optimus would gladly take the hit for the community so we could preserve a bit more of our dignity. Future trolls and shit-stirrers should be instructed to follow this protocol rather than attempting to provoke huge numbers of us simultaneously.
posted by idiopath at 12:35 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

you're saying that you're overwhelmed by people naysaying the use of the word "fag?"

I don't think he's saying that at all. I think he's addressing the classic problem of show versus tell, tell being exactly what kalessin begins to do here:

uncanny hedgeman, if you're still reading, the problem with acting like an asshole for rhetorical purposes is...

...is, if this thread is to be shown as an example, that you might lose. That's all. If conversation in the gray bottoms out as so many textual slugfests with the likes of Optimus Chyme, then there is apparently nothing wrong with acting a rhetorical tool. The only wrong is losing. This problem will surface again and again until those who supposedly disdain the calling cards of trolls stop waiting for any chance to play them.
posted by kid ichorous at 12:40 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Ah, so you're trolling.

Ah, so you're deliberately ignoring my follow-up serious comment and throwing accusations in bad faith that'll leave you feeling good about yourself? Got it.
posted by stinkycheese at 12:41 PM on March 12, 2010

It seems that these sexist/racist/etc. callouts have a common theme. The callout is usually based a specific statement that is labeled sexist or whatever. A discussion begins about how bad the statement may have been or that the statement was poorly worded or whatever. Whatever it is it's usually just about the statement not the person who made it unless they have a long history of this sort of thing. Then the person who made the statement comes charging into the the thread with "I'm not sexist/racist/etc." and then the derail about the defense of the persons character begins. I wish this type of MeTa callout could be prefaced with a "IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU, IT'S ABOUT THE COMMENT YOU MADE", perhaps someone could word that better than me.
posted by Procloeon at 12:42 PM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

Stinkycheese, if you're not interested in trying to articulate your actual position instead of repeating "This thread is bad" in different words, than I for one am not really interested in listening to you.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:43 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Ah, so you're deliberately ignoring my follow-up serious comment and throwing accusations in bad faith that'll leave you feeling good about yourself? Got it.

Seriously? There were 2 minutes between those comments, that's barely enough time to read, post, and refresh. I doubt anyone was ignoring your second comment, but if you feel that strongly try not making a crappy throwaway before you answer the question.
posted by pupdog at 12:44 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Having a Western Australian stereotype is that it would require the rest of Oz to actually think about WA. It's just so far away, you see.

Off the top of my head, WA has-
rocks
black swans
secessionists
dodgy AFL teams
Ironbar Tuckey
posted by zamboni at 12:45 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Just don't endlessly pile on. It's simple really.

just don't endlessly pile on would be simple if it weren't basically a bundle of relative and subjective values thrown together out of any meaningful context. I hope that doesn't come across as mean or anything, and if it does I apologize, but I don't know how else to put it. It would be like me saying "just don't infinitely get up in everyone's grill." there are too many terms in there that rely on knowing how you're using them, which is why people keep asking for specifics. you don't need to quote anyone or anything, but if you're interested in being as clear as possible (and it's entirely within your rights not to want to do that, in which case there isn't much to talk about) then the simplest thing would be "I think piling on someone for calling someone else a fag is worse than calling them a fag in the first place" as an example of something that is rather more specific. or "I think judging someone for being an openly gay person is not as bad as condemning someone for that judgment" is also more specific.

so that's what I mean.
posted by shmegegge at 12:46 PM on March 12, 2010

perhaps someone could word that better than me.

What they did vs what they are.

"...the 'what they are' conversation on the other hand takes things one step further and uses what they did and what they said to draw conclusions about what kind of person they are. This is also known as the "I think you are racist" conversation. This is the conversation you don't wanna have. Because that conversation takes us away from the facts of what they did into speculation about their motives and intentions and those are things you can only guess at, you can't ever prove, and that makes it way too easy for them to derail your whole argument.

...because the 'what they are' conversation is a rhetorical Bermuda Triangle where everything drowns in a sea of empty posturing."
posted by cashman at 12:47 PM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

What is up with all the 'Optimus Chyme will deliver a huge smackdown' stuff? It's like you are in a playground fight and you go home to get your older brother. Fight your own battles, you are doing fine.
posted by fixedgear at 12:48 PM on March 12, 2010

There is no actual penalty on Metafilter for homophobia other than people whose opinions homophobes don't really care about saying mean things. As long as there is no significant disincentive for it, homophobic statements will continue to be posted to Metafilter.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:49 PM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

re: earlier in the thread -

Forget Frank Rizzo and to hell with the jerky boys.

I need to open your eyes to the wonders of Longmont Potion Castle.

Seriously.

Longmont.

In case you ever wondered what orville sash was.
posted by orville sash at 12:52 PM on March 12, 2010

To avoid giant pile-ons, maybe in the future each "side" can pick a challenger and we can watch them battle it out pokemon style.

In this scenario Optimus Chyme is Mewtwo.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 12:56 PM on March 12, 2010 [4 favorites]

Perhaps the other two commentors were sufficiently embarrassed by their comments into re-evaluating their opinions.
But... carpet munchers? Really? Labiaphiles? What the fuck.
posted by graventy at 12:57 PM on March 12, 2010

** ...there was a photo of a fairly attractive, feminine looking girl posing for what looked like a self portrait.

So, your utter dismissal was really truly based entirely on the most obvious jaw-droppingly asinine assumption. Wow.
posted by desuetude at 1:03 PM on March 12, 2010

LUG
Shirtlifter
Dimples of Venus

I'm 48 years old, and I had never heard any of these before this morning.

This can help.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:06 PM on March 12, 2010

I will say one thing for this thread:

It's made me dig out my copy of Joe Jackson's Night And Day to re-listen to his song "Real Men", which gave me an excuse to listen to the rest of the album, which is awesome, so yay.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:08 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I like the 5th Element cause it looks like French Sci-Fi Comics: The Movie.

That's because of Moebius! (and Mézières)

Luc Besson, an admitted comic book fan, had two famous French comic book artists in mind for the film's visual style when he started writing the movie in high school. Jean Giraud (Moebius) and Jean-Claude Mézières. Both artists have long-standing comic book series in France. Moebius is best known for "Blueberry" and the (French) Magazine and (US) movie Heavy Metal (1981). Mézières is best known for the "Valerian" series. Both series are still in production today. Moebius and Mezieres, who attended art school together but had never collaborated on a project until The Fifth Element (1997), started renderings for the film in the early '90s and are responsible for the majority of the over all look of the film, including the vehicles, spacecrafts, buildings, human characters and aliens. However, only Giraud is credited, and even then he wasn't even granted a premium when the movie was eventually produced.
posted by Greg Nog at 1:11 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I love that song, EmpressCallipygos! Also The Thing, Big Trouble in Little China, and The Fifth Element. Among other things. Love. It's a good thing.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:11 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Perhaps the other two commentors were sufficiently embarrassed by their comments into re-evaluating their opinions.
But... carpet munchers? Really? Labiaphiles? What the fuck.

One of the commentors apologized in the original thread, but that was deleted by the mods when they tidied up. It's possible the other commentor did as well, but if so then I missed it. (I was offline for about 30-45 minutes while commuting.)
posted by zarq at 1:12 PM on March 12, 2010

fixedgear: "What is up with all the 'Optimus Chyme will deliver a huge smackdown' stuff?"

That wasn't quite my intention. I guess my proposal was actually too modest for the sarcasm to be clear. I don't really think that the insults, ad-hominem and verbal fireworks are so great, and I would be delighted to see less of it.

I think this has a difficult precondition though: acknowledgment that this means people are going to say crappy and infuriating things without getting a snappy comeback, and unanimity in this approach.

What I was alluding to with referencing our friend Mr. Chyme is that I simultaneously agree with most of what he posts, and think that it is sometimes over the line in terms of meeting antisocial behavior with more antisocial behavior in turn. If this were a religion thread I would have mentioned VikingSword instead (nothing personal, Mr. Sword, you are quite often right, but just over the line sometimes in terms of civility).

To be clear: I see nothing wrong with one person saying something messed up, and 50 people saying "hey, you are wrong and here is why". When it turns into insults, or bullying, or in general attempts to escalate the emotional tone to the detriment of the conversation, that I don't think is so great.
posted by idiopath at 1:15 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Yeah. I think in the future someone who feels like trolling should just invite Optimus Chyme to a one on one chat session, and those of us who would like to rubberneck could just read the logs, which would surely be full of hilarity and triumphant putdowns. That would definitely be more fair, and I am sure Optimus would gladly take the hit for the community so we could preserve a bit more of our dignity. Future trolls and shit-stirrers should be instructed to follow this protocol rather than attempting to provoke huge numbers of us simultaneously.
posted by idiopath at 12:35 PM on March 12
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:15 PM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

There is no actual penalty on Metafilter for homophobia other than people whose opinions homophobes don't really care about saying mean things. As long as there is no significant disincentive for it, homophobic statements will continue to be posted to Metafilter.

What sort of penalty are you proposing, then? AFAIK, the mods don't ban people for venting offensive opinions unless those opinions happen to be personally directed at another MeFite. Do they?
posted by zarq at 1:16 PM on March 12, 2010

To be clear: I see nothing wrong with one person saying something messed up, and 50 people saying "hey, you are wrong and here is why". When it turns into insults, or bullying, or in general attempts to escalate the emotional tone to the detriment of the conversation, that I don't think is so great.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it kind of sounds like you're advocating "leave the laying a smackdown to the professionals."

...What's funny is that I kind of like that....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:17 PM on March 12, 2010

AFAIK, the mods don't ban people for venting offensive opinions

Do anti-Semites and/or neo-Nazis last long on Metafilter?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:18 PM on March 12, 2010

Do anti-Semites and/or neo-Nazis last long on Metafilter?

Actually, yes. At least two (and possibly more) people have made what I would characterize as anti-semitic remarks in the last year, and they are still members. One of whom is a very active, long-standing MeFite.

Hate speech ≠ offensive opinions.
posted by zarq at 1:22 PM on March 12, 2010

What's so wrong about "group condemnation" of misbehavior?

It's boring to read, for one. And it's kind of counter-productive when used with those of us with a tendency towards oppositional defiant disorder.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:24 PM on March 12, 2010

Are you guys suggesting that the mods are derelict because they haven't punished every sort of behavior that anyone in this thread could construe as homophobic? Doesn't this involve quite a few more variables than punishing users who simply resort to direct personal attacks at other users?
posted by kid ichorous at 1:27 PM on March 12, 2010

I think an anti-semite or neo-Nazi that was skilled enough to couch statements could certainly survive on MeFi. I see plenty of offensive statements get a pass here. I see posts that disparage groups unpopular with John Q. Metafilter get run down all the time. How many LOLxtians and LOLrednecks posts have we had here. Hell, there's one about Texas right now full of "let the rednecks secede" hillarity.
posted by Pollomacho at 1:27 PM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

I'm assuming that by "the former" you mean "user x calling someone a fag," and that the reason uncanny hengemen's comment still stands (despite it being an example of user x calling someone a fag) is because this is metatalk and there's a level of accountability for your words here and bad shit is at times allowed to stay here.

Yeah, context (both in terms of location, in this case Metatalk-as-least-moderated-area, and of conversational placement, in this case in a thread already kind of fraught with and wrapped up in some of this language stuff in a way that's different from someone starting to throw "fags" around in e.g. a thread about architectural theory or something) is making this different than what it might be.

We're also, frankly, fighting to keep up with a monster of a thread on a rare day where we're all actually kind of not so much around and available for hours-at-the-computer moderation fests as we normally are, and to some extent triage kicks in and trying to leave it where possible at "cut it out, everybody" becomes more of a practical priority than thoroughly sorting out the details as we normally might be able to.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:28 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

oppositional defiant disorder

Whoa. I didn't know that was a thing.

Suddenly, I feel... complete.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 1:29 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

restless_nomad: "I adore The Fifth Element. "

Me too. Bruce Willis in that orange thing he wears - mmm! Was Big Trouble the film where the guys head gets all big and explodes? I saw that when I was seven and had to be quietened not long after.

Is it a full moon tonight, or something? My gran always used to say that the full moon sent everyone crazy. She also used to say "wah!" a lot, so make of that what you will.
posted by Solomon at 1:30 PM on March 12, 2010

Has the (recent?) anti-GRAR stance been discussed anywhere? Just curious.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 1:31 PM on March 12, 2010

I see plenty of offensive statements get a pass here. I see posts that disparage groups unpopular with John Q. Metafilter get run down all the time. How many LOLxtians and LOLrednecks posts have we had here. Hell, there's one about Texas right now full of "let the rednecks secede" hillarity.

When I saw this MeTa post in the McMillen thread, I actually thought it was going to be about the slurs against Mississippi or the American South.

Nope.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:38 PM on March 12, 2010

I adore The Fifth Element.

Man I am trying my damnest to talk about the important issues here but people keep derailing the thread with talk about homophobia and callouts and stuff.

Anyway I'm trying to form some Grand Unification Theory Of Bruce Willis Movies that focuses on the relationship between filmic quality and the amount of hair on Willis's head. Any help would be appreciated.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:40 PM on March 12, 2010

I'm trying to form some Grand Unification Theory Of Bruce Willis Movies that focuses on the relationship between filmic quality and the amount of hair on Willis's head.

Mmm, you may need to more clearly define "quality", however. Because in the opinions of some, Hudson Hawk is a work of genius.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:43 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

EmpressCallipygos: "iMmm, you may need to more clearly define "quality", however. Because in the opinions of some, Hudson Hawk is a work of genius"

Are there people who think otherwise?
posted by charred husk at 1:45 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Shitshirring, threadshitting, maybe people need to take this?
posted by stormpooper at 1:48 PM on March 12, 2010

Five hundredth comment. Thread over.
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 1:49 PM on March 12, 2010

in the opinions of some, Hudson Hawk is a work of genius

You'll get that road runner any day now, genius.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:49 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Anyway I'm trying to form some Grand Unification Theory Of Bruce Willis Movies that focuses on the relationship between filmic quality and the amount of hair on Willis's head. Any help would be appreciated.

12 Monkeys suggests an inverse relationship.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:51 PM on March 12, 2010

502 THE BEST 02 THERE IS
posted by The Whelk at 1:52 PM on March 12, 2010

Open comments? Open comments? That's communication with the outside world. Mod's *discretion*. Nuh-uh. Look, hey - all of these nuts could just make comments, they could spread insanity, oozing through the internets, oozing into the minds of all these poor sane people, infecting them. Wackos everywhere, plague of madness.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:58 PM on March 12, 2010

Because in the opinions of some, Hudson Hawk is a work of genius.

Yes. And a fullish head of hair was also on display in Die Hard, so by that metric, hair = good.

On the other hand, you have bald Bruce in Unbreakable (I liked it.), Sin City, 16 Blocks, and Live Free or Die Hard, which, while not good, was entertaining. And somewhere in the middle of hair-ness, was Pulp Fiction and The Last Boyscout, which both have their charms.

So I'd be hard pressed to come up with a coherent theory. Maybe a better one would be looking at who his primary co-star is. Willis + Sizemore = Striking Distance = Crap, but Willis + Pitt = 12 Monkeys = Awesome.
posted by quin at 2:00 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

We need a flow chart and a whiteboard and a professional hair stylist, stat
posted by The Whelk at 2:06 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

WHOSE LONGBOAT IS THIS? OUR LONGBOAT!

No, seriously. It's parked in front of the garage and I need to get my skateboard out.

Hell of 500 cubit longboat parked in front of garage blocking door beholding skateboard.

Chinese have many kinds of hell.

Including Hell of Many Kinds of Hell.
posted by loquacious at 2:09 PM on March 12, 2010

Bruce has hair in Death Becomes Her, too. I really think 12 Monkeys is the main outlier.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:10 PM on March 12, 2010

Of course The Fifth Element is cheesy! It's French! Goddam!

The important thing about The Fifth Element is that it transcends cheese. What other sci-fi action flick as Bruce Fucking Willis running around in Gaultier and stops for five minutes of Lucia di Lammermoor in the middle? Goddam! It's an Italian opera but that's still pretty cheesy, and we can forgive Besson one little slip, I'm sure.
posted by bonehead at 2:10 PM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

Wait, are we saying Death Becomes Her is bad? Cause it is so not bad. It's Night Of Living Dead as done by Noel Coward.
posted by The Whelk at 2:11 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

No no no. Hair = good. Bald = bad. Death Becomes Her = hair = good.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:12 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I understand, you may continue.
posted by The Whelk at 2:13 PM on March 12, 2010

So Pulp Fiction is only sort-of ok? Not as good as Hudson Hawk?!

+++DOES NOT COMPUTE! OUT OF CHEESE ERROR!+++
posted by bonehead at 2:16 PM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

QUICK! WE MUST HAVE MORE CHEESE!
posted by The Whelk at 2:17 PM on March 12, 2010

Hudson Hawk drove me crazy the first time I saw it. You've just gotten out of jail and you're engaging in burglary WITHOUT GLOVES!?

I find the strangest things to nitpick about.
posted by ODiV at 2:17 PM on March 12, 2010

Prom Lesbians: a feature, not a bug

That isn't homophobic to me--its saying that it is bad for the school to look at this as "problem" instead of a fact of life.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:19 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Of course The Fifth Element is cheesy! It's French! Goddam!

that movie's a big fav of mine.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:20 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

That was my read too, fwiw.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:20 PM on March 12, 2010

So Pulp Fiction is only sort-of ok? Not as good as Hudson Hawk?!

And 12 Monkeys has Bald Bruce. Like I said, I'm only working on the Theory. I don't think there's a direct ratio, but probably some sort of complicated T-curve thing.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:22 PM on March 12, 2010

Whoever is putting The Fifth Element in the "bad" column, you are going on a list.
posted by 23skidoo at 2:23 PM on March 12, 2010

You misunderstood! I love The Fifth Element! ARR GRRRR GRAAAA

*flames out over Bruce Willis's hair discussion*
posted by shakespeherian at 2:25 PM on March 12, 2010

And 12 Monkeys has Bald Bruce.

However, at the very end, he dons a wig.
posted by 23skidoo at 2:27 PM on March 12, 2010

Where does "Over The Hedge" fit in this? After all, he plays a raccoon in that movie and thus has tons of hair.
posted by brundlefly at 2:29 PM on March 12, 2010

However, at the very end, he dons a wig.

All throughout, actually, HE SAID WITHOUT ALERTING READERS TO SPOILERS
posted by shakespeherian at 2:31 PM on March 12, 2010

I will always cherish my virtual Six Demon Bag in World of Warcraft.

Hudson Hawk rocks. 2nd fave Vatican conspiracy movie after The Pope Must Die(t).
posted by nomisxid at 2:33 PM on March 12, 2010

To be fair, he also voiced Mikey in not just Look Who's Talking but again in Look Who's Talking Too. Need I remind the assembled gentles that this.... movie, rated by many as the possibly worst movie of all time, gave us that most descriptive of phases: diaper gravy (with audio and visual demonstrations of same).

And babies? Bald.
QED.
posted by bonehead at 2:33 PM on March 12, 2010

Bruce had awesome hair in Lucky Number Slevin.

I just had to add that.
posted by pupdog at 2:38 PM on March 12, 2010

I like how the only review blurb on the Rotten Tomatoes page for Look Who's Talking Too reads, "Why?"
posted by brundlefly at 2:41 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

However, at the very end, he dons a wig.

Not to spoil the movie, but the very end of 12 Monkeys is Bruce Willis as a child, watching his future self in his future self's past. So it is a kind of early Bruce Willis, if you will, in that the hair is in a way a throwback to Hudson Hawk-era Bruce.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:41 PM on March 12, 2010

I'm not wild about Big Trouble OR Fifth Element, and I was sad that I didn't love them, because damned if I don't love cheesy, culty pulp movies. I'm more into Danger: Diabolik and Garbage Pail Kids.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:43 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

(Although wasn't "diaper gravy" from the equally abysmal Baby Geniuses?)
posted by brundlefly at 2:44 PM on March 12, 2010

In the recent turkey Surrogates, Willis' surrogate self wears the most preposterous toupee ever. It's hilarious and sort of makes him look like a strange breed of chicken. Unfortunately, seeing it requires one to actually watch Surrogates, which is, as a whole, anti-hilarious and boretastic.
posted by Skot at 2:45 PM on March 12, 2010

I'm not wild about Big Trouble OR Fifth Element

Dead to me.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:46 PM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

(Gah! A quick google says you're right brundlefly! It's Friday and I need a beer!)
posted by bonehead at 2:46 PM on March 12, 2010

(I need a beer because I actually caught that.)
posted by brundlefly at 2:47 PM on March 12, 2010

I unfortunately feel morally obligated to point out that Bruce has plenty of hair in The Bonfire of the Vanities.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:48 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I unfortunately feel morally obligated to point out that Bruce has plenty of hair in The Bonfire of the Vanities.

AH! I meant to address this topic. In The Devil's Candy, which is a tell-all book about the filming of that movie (by a journalist who was insanely given open access during the entire production), it is revealed that Willis showed up on-set with his hair basically painted on. Bonfire of the Vanities--which is horrific and dreadful and should not be approached unarmed--seems to be one of those productions that simply drove everyone involved completely barking mad. (Except for perhaps Melanie Griffith, who no doubt arrived fully pre-insanitized.)
posted by Skot at 2:52 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'm not wild about Big Trouble OR Fifth Element

I used to think I could love you. Once.
posted by scrump at 3:07 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'll still love you AV, but it'll be that cold, distant love of someone who just doesn't know how to talk to you anymore. Because, you know, things were said that can't be unsaid.
posted by quin at 3:12 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

This is not a longboat, this is a Loveboat.
posted by waraw at 3:19 PM on March 12, 2010

I'm not wild about Big Trouble OR Fifth Element, and I was sad that I didn't love them,

*jaw drops, hits the floor and shatters like cryofrozen glass*

Whaaa thaaa faaaaaaah?

All that film school must be giving you a case of Invader Zim style head pigeons. I don't even know what to say.

It's practically the finest roles ever for Gary Oldman, Bruce Willis and Chris Rock all in one absurd movie. The fact that Zorg and Corbin Dallas never actually meet once during the entire film and keep missing each other by split seconds, often in the same continuous shot makes it worth it for that alone. Sure, the whole happy space love rocks perfect being falls in love with a filthy used up ex-special forces cabbie to save the universe from a flaming hateful ball of PURE EVIL thing is a terrible mcguffin and ending, but... Ruby Rod! Zorg! Meat popsicles!
posted by loquacious at 3:24 PM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

Wrong Chris.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:25 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

Love,
so schmoopy and squee
Pop some corn, read along with me
Love,
like Bruce Willis' hair
Back when Moonlighting was still on TV

The Love Boat!
soon we'll be making another pun
The Love Boat promises schmoopy for everyone
Clear your killfiles of mefites,
And give all those trolls one more chance

And love shall snark evermore
It's an open proxy on a friendly shore
It's love!
Welcome aboard, It's love!
posted by waraw at 3:26 PM on March 12, 2010 [6 favorites]

I'm trying to form some Grand Unification Theory Of Bruce Willis Movies that focuses on the relationship between filmic quality and the amount of hair on Willis's head.

To quote a superior Bruce Willis movie, "I wonder if you are familiar with my own research."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:26 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Heee. AV just shattered the hearts of a million nerd boys. So cool.

Oh god it hurts.
posted by loquacious at 3:28 PM on March 12, 2010

Wrong Chris.

Oh, right. Sorry, I'm a bit under the weather. (I'm pretty sure I actually caught teh swine flu-ke, just coming out of it now.)
posted by loquacious at 3:30 PM on March 12, 2010

Leave me out of this, turdbuckets.
posted by Schmoopy at 3:31 PM on March 12, 2010

I'm not wild about Big Trouble OR Fifth Element

I recognize this as an English sentence, but I don't understand its meaning.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:32 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

brundlefly: "(Although wasn't "diaper gravy" from the equally abysmal Baby Geniuses?)"

Yes. Though I am VERY ashamed to know that.
posted by ShawnStruck at 3:34 PM on March 12, 2010

Astro Zombie: Logically, he's wild about both.
posted by ODiV at 3:37 PM on March 12, 2010

she!
posted by ODiV at 3:37 PM on March 12, 2010

Somebody ring the cheese alarm?
posted by mintcake! at 3:52 PM on March 12, 2010

I am so happy that we are talking about movies and food.

MORE THREADS ABOUT MOVIES AND FOOD.
posted by mintcake! at 3:52 PM on March 12, 2010

"Hypothetically, isn't it possible that wearing a tuxedo to such an event would make a statement to the outside world (even inadvertently) about how those women view their own gender role in society? I mean, if the women at an event traditionally wear one type of clothing and the men another, then if someone switches to the other gender's attire, it's hard to argue that there's no other context involved."

Personally, I don't think so. For example, for my high school graduation, the girls were supposed to wear white gowns, and the guys got black. I managed to finagle a black gown because I don't like wearing white. People made it out to be a much bigger deal than it was. Same thing for homecoming/proms - tuxedos on women can look great.
posted by HopperFan at 3:55 PM on March 12, 2010

I just taught some SF MeFites to say DON'T GENDER ME and DON'T OTHER ME at the last meetup. Maybe this will be useful to someone here.
posted by liketitanic at 3:56 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Man, I am usually all up for a good flameout, but I couldn't get through more than half of this thread.

Guys, I realize that when someone is being a fool on Metatalk it feels like everybody has to get in their licks. Hell, burning people at the stake is practically the raison d'etre of threads like this. But, really, after the first 20 people have beat the guy into a bloody pulp you don't really have to kick him in the stomach while he's down. It's kind of unseemly.
posted by Justinian at 4:01 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'm not wild about Big Trouble OR Fifth Element

You know, there's this, plus the fact that I just remembered that you never did come back to that MeTa months ago to tell everyone the details about the time you kicked Crispin Glover... why do you hate metafilter, AV?
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 4:22 PM on March 12, 2010

You never really kick Crispin Glover. Crispin Glover is with you for life.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:25 PM on March 12, 2010 [7 favorites]

But, really, after the first 20 people have beat the guy into a bloody pulp you don't really have to kick him in the stomach while he's down.

*thinks about this for a minute - thinks about what an unrelenting asshat uncanny trollman has been throughout the thread - kicks uncanny trollman in the stomach*
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:42 PM on March 12, 2010

There's a Kicking Crispin Glover story which has been withheld? THIS WILL NOT STAND.

AV, I forbid this thread to proceed any further until you have shared this titanic tale with the class. FOR SERIOUS GUYS NO MORE NOTHING UNTIL WE HEAR ABOUT CRISPIN GLOVER GETTING KICKED.
posted by EatTheWeak at 4:43 PM on March 12, 2010

I'm more into Danger: Diabolik

DEEP DEEP DOWN! SHA NAH NAH NAAAAH NAH NAH NUH!
posted by The Whelk at 4:46 PM on March 12, 2010

In The Devil's Candy, which is a tell-all book about the filming of that movie

Ooo I loved that book! Didn't Melanie Griffith have breast work done (implanted or removed, can't remember) smack dab in the middle of filming?

You know how some people cherish having been at Woodstock? I cherish having seen Big Trouble in Little China at the theater.

I, too, saw it in the theater but that's not that big a deal to me. Star Wars, yes, Raiders of the Lost Ark, yes, these were seminal movie-going experiences for me but I think my personal best was Earthquake at Grauman's Chinese Theater. Oh man, Sensaround! In a movie theater with piles of junk draped all over the walls and ceiling! They had to have nets just in case stuff started falling off.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:48 PM on March 12, 2010

Fun bad Movie Fact: My dad's in Super Mario Brothers The Movie. No he not a lead character nor is he fungus. Apparently it was a very confusing one day of shooting and he had no idea why he was there, just like everyone else.


I do adore that movie, only cause it has the best SOON THE UNIVERSE WILL BE MINE! in recent movie history.

Also Samantha Morton petting a dinosaur.
posted by The Whelk at 4:58 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

ok whelk here you go
posted by waraw at 5:11 PM on March 12, 2010

I don't why you posted that but I agree with it
posted by The Whelk at 5:13 PM on March 12, 2010

I tried to get upset about this, but...it's a fucking prom, for crying out loud. Who cares? Maybe she is an attention seeker, but so's everybody else who would go, so what the hell, you know.
posted by jonmc at 6:38 PM on March 12, 2010

we're talking about Bruce Willis now Jon.
posted by The Whelk at 6:42 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

well, yippy-kai-ay, motherfucker.

also, I tried Lay's Pepper Relish potato chips on th eway home tonight. They were alright.
posted by jonmc at 6:43 PM on March 12, 2010

I think everything of substance that could be said about this has been said here.
posted by anifinder at 6:52 PM on March 12, 2010

Don't be ridiculous. There's a lot more of substance to be said aboiut Pepper Relish Potato Chips.
posted by jonmc at 6:54 PM on March 12, 2010

It's an Italian opera but that's still pretty cheesy

What, they should do a French opera?
posted by Mister_A at 7:04 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Every comment in this thread should be deleted up to jonmc's entree, just so Mefi can retain some street cred. Although some individuals performed well, this is generally a messy embarrassment all over.
posted by Trapped Vector at 7:15 PM on March 12, 2010

METAFILTER:generally a messy embarrassment all over.
posted by The Whelk at 7:36 PM on March 12, 2010

So, Mods, how IS AUSTIN AND THE MEFITE HOUSE?
posted by The Whelk at 7:37 PM on March 12, 2010

totes sweet
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:02 PM on March 12, 2010

What, they should do a French opera?

Absolument! It was not completely fromage française, but Italian cheese is still of the finest quality. One cannot fault Besson for choosing to use an import, or, only a little bit.
posted by bonehead at 8:05 PM on March 12, 2010

This should be made more general and moved to AskMeFi as it could be a fantastic question...what is the stereotypical redneck part of your country?

I have a friend from Japan who always gets teased by my other friends from Japan because she's from out in the sticks. I forget the actual word they use, but I was told the english translation is "potato girl", which I find hysterical.

What I love most about this site, is that after reading this entire thread, I'm really excited to find out there's a book about the making of Bonfire, which I will buy and read immediately. Which will probably lead me to watch the movie. And I'll probably try to explain to someone that I'm watching Bonfire of the Vanities because that one school hates gays and cancelled the prom.
posted by billyfleetwood at 8:14 PM on March 12, 2010 [3 favorites]

> Heee. AV just shattered the hearts of a million nerd boys. So cool.

You oughta thank me!

Gary Oldman was unsexied in Fifth Element! I couldn't believe it! He can be sexy as Sid Vicious and sexy as Dracula, and sexy as Arthur Dimmesdale, even. OF course, my sexy Gary Oldman choice is either his role in Leon or as the baddie in AFO.

So The Fifth Element? FUCK that noise. I'd rather watch Strange Days!

*the crowd gasps*

I also kinda liked Surrogates. And speaking of Bruce Willis, guess what I get to do over my spring break? Grade papers comparing Die Hard and Match Point. I mean, talk about a belabored prompt. Die Hard is here Die Hard is here.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 8:37 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Hello? Hello, anybody home, McFLY? What about the kicking Crispin Glover story? Didja forget about that one, McFLY?!
posted by carsonb at 8:50 PM on March 12, 2010

Just came back from dinner out in my new town, and the pub makes an amazingly good steak salad! It has warm roasted apples in it. And they cook the steak to order before slicing it.
posted by Miko at 8:52 PM on March 12, 2010

So The Fifth Element? FUCK that noise. I'd rather watch Strange Days!


It's big tent! Lets all watch Liquid Sky! The director of that now owns a great sushi bar near Union Square! This has been The Whelk, your guide to the world of facts.
posted by The Whelk at 8:53 PM on March 12, 2010 [5 favorites]

Miko!

Steak!

Pubs can do some real cool food.
posted by The Whelk at 8:54 PM on March 12, 2010

My red pepper baked ziti has about 10 minutes left. droooooool
posted by carsonb at 9:12 PM on March 12, 2010

I AM LEAVING FOR SF IN T-MINUS 8 HOURS
posted by The Whelk at 9:13 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

baked pasta twinsies!

I dubbed tonight's supper Goat-Weiner casserole. Chevre, cream and macaroni with roasted cauliflower, peas and fried smartdogs for some reason. Topped with bread crumbs and baked.

And yes, I kicked Crispin Glover. This was right after watching the movie he made full of trisomy 21 people, but that's just correlation, not causation.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:45 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

jonmc writes "I tried to get upset about this, but...it's a fucking prom, for crying out loud. Who cares?"

jonmc I think your lawn is showing. Who cares? For starters obviously the person who was unable to bring their date and now all the ticked off students mad because the prom has been cancelled.
posted by Mitheral at 9:59 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Strange Days is pretty freakin awesome too.
posted by brundlefly at 10:01 PM on March 12, 2010

MetaTalk: I think your lawn is showing
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:02 PM on March 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

I AM LEAVING FOR SF IN T-MINUS 8 HOURS

I thought you just went to Louisiana. Aren't you tired or something?
posted by Trapped Vector at 10:05 PM on March 12, 2010

I think your lawn is showing

But the real question is: does the lawn match the hedgerow?

No, that doesn't actually mean anything.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:18 PM on March 12, 2010

Mari Culver to tout her ‘lug’ at Woodbury convention
posted by jpdoane at 10:22 PM on March 12, 2010

I'd rather watch Strange Days!

Well, who wouldn't?
posted by scrump at 10:40 PM on March 12, 2010

Ambrosia Voyeur: "And yes, I kicked Crispin Glover. This was right after watching the movie he made full of trisomy 21 people, but that's just correlation, not causation."

Damned woman! We asked for details and you tease us so! And disparage the name of several fine flicks.

Alas! Oh woe-filled heart, can it truly end this way?

*leaves thread in tears*
posted by graventy at 11:11 PM on March 12, 2010

You oughta thank me!

OK, cued and playlisted. Ow. Thank you mistress, may I have another?

This is going to be worse than Hands of Manos, isn't it? I'm going to fall asleep halfway through this thing and wake up on a park bench on Mimas with a balding Lo Pan-looking Chinese dude licking my feet, the passport of a women named Emily and a head full of bone-eating brainworms, or something, I just know it

la! la! la!
posted by loquacious at 11:21 PM on March 12, 2010

But the real question is: does the lawn match the hedgerow?

Wow, talk about grabbing the short and curlies. Mind the berries.

Also, suddenly I have a certain Led Zepplin song being mashed in my head.
posted by loquacious at 11:24 PM on March 12, 2010

And I also had weird pasta. Pesto tortellini with peas and crumbles of smoked salmon and extra sharp not orange cheddar.
posted by loquacious at 11:26 PM on March 12, 2010

Where did you kick Crispin Glover? Please say junk.
posted by loquacious at 11:28 PM on March 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I bet it was behind the knees. ;)
posted by zarq at 11:44 PM on March 12, 2010

I left The Fifth Element thinking "that seemed like it was written by a teenage boy" and lo 4 years later I found out it was. There may be great stuff there but I am just unable to recognize it.
posted by Trapped Vector at 11:53 PM on March 12, 2010

I thought you just went to Louisiana. Aren't you tired or something?

I AM ALL PLACES AT ONCE.

And yes.

"that seemed like it was written by a teenage boy"

See, I enjoyed it cause I came out of the theater going "you know if you have me a bunch of money and a film crew at 15, i would have made that." So it tickled that part of my brain.


OMG WIND AND RAIN.
posted by The Whelk at 3:40 AM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Like: Fifth Element
Eh: Big Trouble in Little Chine
Like: Blazing Saddles

My coworkers want me to watch Johnny Dangerously. Should I?
posted by kalessin at 3:54 AM on March 13, 2010

By all means, you should watch Dangerously.
posted by tomboko at 4:01 AM on March 13, 2010

Okay then. Thank you.
posted by kalessin at 4:15 AM on March 13, 2010

I hate waiting for the car to the airport. I feel so obligated.
posted by The Whelk at 4:16 AM on March 13, 2010

You know your name's an adverb?
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:29 AM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

It's not easy being an adverb (and my real middle name is a verb and a command. Sigh)
posted by The Whelk at 4:32 AM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Also Samantha Morton petting a dinosaur.

I hate you now forever because Samantha Morton rules over every universe she's ever acted in or upon or within or beyond, and Samantha Mathis once took off her sweater and showed her boobies to Christian Slater and also poisoned her husband on House and did a boring Richard E. Grant romantic comedy and perhaps, yes, petted a dinosaur but I don't think Samantha Morton has yet petted a dinosaur so there's something Samantha Mathis has done as an actor that Samantha Morton hasn't and that makes me sad and also makes me hate you. Forever.
posted by cgc373 at 4:40 AM on March 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

i guess i got half way and then couldn't read any more... but i feel it's important to state that i am an australian and not homophobic. i do have some gay friends. i am not a particularly special australian.

the uncanny hengeman does not in any way represent the views and opinions of any demographic that i belong to. and calling anyone a fag is intolerable.. forever for every straight person.... for eternity.

although we were born on the same continent, he shares nothing else with me. i am australian and not proud of his sentiments. they are ignorant, offensive and bloody-minded.

not all australians are like him. most are not. i am sorry if any one thinks he represents a typical australian attitude. truly sorry. he. does. not.
posted by taff at 4:47 AM on March 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

I watched Johnny Dangerously once.

Once.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 5:02 AM on March 13, 2010 [8 favorites]

Hi, I've never posted in metatalk before because I always thought that it was a bit too meta meta for me.

So apparently my comment was deleted for being offensive or not on topic enough or something...

I really always thought that my particular brand of "commentsatire" helped to contextualize the issue at hand. By being overtly offensive in my statement, I call attention to the covert offensiveness inherent in the story at hand. Things are usually deemed offensive because they violate some basic principle held very dearly in the mind of the offended. Getting at those core principles and examining them is key to actually understanding complex issues. If one can examine they're own offended reaction then they can begin to understand the mind of their opponent and come to the issue from a place of common ground rather than screaming at each other over a metaphorical wall.

I've always understood my place on metafilter to be a kind of jester to provoke thought by being a satirical idiot savant. Now, I find myself rethinking this. If metafilter is going to over-governed in this kind of heavy-handed and artless way, I think it may be time to say goodbye.

You'll always be my favorite timesink.

Good night and Good luck.
posted by SinisterPurpose at 5:41 AM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

having met a few of the more baudy, ribald and rowdy lot that come Oz...

No No NO! I come from UH's land and I am a LADY!
posted by honey-barbara at 5:48 AM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

the uncanny hengeman does not in any way represent the views and opinions of any demographic that i belong to. and calling anyone a fag is intolerable.. forever for every straight person.... for eternity.

although we were born on the same continent, he shares nothing else with me.

No worries -- I, at least, get that. But I also make it a policy of grouping all of humanity into only two categories: jerks and non-jerks.

Uncanny's nationality may be Australian, but in my mind, his views are typical of jerks. Not Australians.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:09 AM on March 13, 2010

And I kind of liked Strange Days.

But -- I've never completely trusted people who didn't like Buckaroo Banzai.

I actually had the opportunity to ask Jeff Goldblum about what the watermelon was doing there, but chickened out.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:12 AM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Things are usually deemed offensive because they violate some basic principle held very dearly in the mind of the offended. Getting at those core principles and examining them is key to actually understanding complex issues. If one can examine they're own offended reaction then they can begin to understand the mind of their opponent and come to the issue from a place of common ground rather than screaming at each other over a metaphorical wall.

I'd like you to consider that not a few of us actually have quite a lot of personal experience with "being offended" by people like the administrators of this school. We understand quite well what the issues are. We understand the mind of our opponent. Many of us have encountered this opponent pretty often since we were teenagers. It's not new.


I've always understood my place on metafilter to be a kind of jester to provoke thought by being a satirical idiot savant. Now, I find myself rethinking this. If metafilter is going to over-governed in this kind of heavy-handed and artless way, I think it may be time to say goodbye.

You misread your audience, and made certain assumptions about us and our experience that were inaccurate. If you are going to provoke thought, you must know your audience intimately, which means listening and paying very close attention. You chose not to do that in that thread - rather, you assumed that we all needing provoking in a particular way, and so your thought-provoking satire came off as offensive trolling instead.

I do not think this is Metafilter's fault, nor were the mods in the wrong for deleting it.
posted by rtha at 6:23 AM on March 13, 2010 [11 favorites]

I've always understood my place on metafilter to be a kind of jester to provoke thought by being a satirical idiot savant. Now, I find myself rethinking this.

Yes, please rethink this. It doesn't provoke thought -- it's just tiresome and hurtful.
posted by Forktine at 6:29 AM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

I really always thought that my particular brand of "commentsatire" helped to contextualize the issue at hand.

After 9/11, the Onion staff were going to run a piece where they repeatedly referred to the Pentagon as the Quadragon, but decided against it. The editor explained that satire is tricky, because it's often hard to tell who the target is, and this was an example where it would be easy to read the comedy as making sport of the deaths of people, which was not their intention. They did run a short where they said "Massive attack on Pentagon page eight news," where the satire was clearer, and really did recontextualize the event -- it reminded us of how extraordinarily terrible a day 9/11 was, in that it could make what on any other day would be an absolutely most astonishing and terrible event into an afterthought.

You seem to be blaming your readers for misreading the target of your satire. But you're the comedian -- it's your job to communicate your comedy. Don't blame the audience when you fail to communicate. You didn't mention which comment was yours that was deleted, so I can't comment on the specifics, but you make it sound as though it was one of the slew of lulzy OMG lesbians jokes that popped up in the thread. Let me offer some context for you: Those kinds of jokes don't really recontextualize anything. They reinforce the status quo. And the status quo is this: For straight white men, which I presume you to be (perhaps unfairly, but I'm looking at your profile photo, and that's all I got to go on), thee experience of women's sexuality can always be reduced to a few cheap jokes. Lesbians can always be treated as extensions of heterosexual male sexuality, as though they exist for the pleasure of straight men. Casual homophobia can always be tossed off and then explained away as a joke.

You want to do commentsatire? Know your target. Make sure we know your target. Challenge the status quo -- that's what recontextualization does. And, if your audience doesn't understand what you've done, explain yourself, apologize, and go back to the drawing board. That's the mark of a somebody with something to say in comedy. Not spouting off a few weak comments, explaining it away by pretending you're some misunderstood Swift or Lenny Bruce, and then taking your ball and going home. That's bush league.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:06 AM on March 13, 2010 [22 favorites]

By being overtly offensive in my statement, I call attention to the covert offensiveness inherent in the story at hand.

We have a hard time with this. I generally agree, really good satire can be great at pointing out the inherent ridiculousness of a situation. The problem in a larger community where people don't know each other as well and the population is varied is that people bring different personal contexts to the table. So you know that you're pure of heart and mind and so your "nyah nyah lesbians" comment [I paraphrase, I have no idea what your comment was and haven't looked back at this point] is meant in only a positive "to hell with the haters" way.

The problem though is that for a lot of people, it's just one more barb that they're not sure how to take and they get into defensive "oh no not THIS shit again" mode until they know. In smaller communities, this sort of thing goes more easily. In larger communities, it's touchier and doesn't work as well.

Another problem is that people think they're better at satire than they are [again not pointing at you particularly] and angry smart people often think this the most. So they appear angry and again with an angry person tossing comments around that may not be properly contextualized, there can be a problem.

And yeah it would be great if everyone got your jokes. But realistically they often don't and we've drawn the line a little differently over the past few years, saying that casual racism and sexism [even the "I am making a joke and making a point"] tend to not go as well here and maybe need to be rethought.

And when you're in a thread where there are a mix of comments like uncanny hengeman's as well as your own, people have a tough time getting a read.

So, apologies because yeah we don't mean to be saying "hey your comments were removed because you're a bad person" but just "hey we removed this comments because it was a touchy thread, going the wrong direction and we needed to get it back on track. It might be a good idea to rethink the way you make your jokes because MeFi is large and the userbase is varied"
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:45 AM on March 13, 2010 [3 favorites]

I don't recall seeing an "I require the services of a virtual Fool to help me understand any feelings of offense that might arise from my interactions with MetaFilter" checkbox when I signed up. Did I miss something?
posted by CKmtl at 8:10 AM on March 13, 2010 [3 favorites]

I swear I marked that box!
posted by cjorgensen at 8:29 AM on March 13, 2010

> I think it may be time to say goodbye.

And yet you haven't left.
posted by languagehat at 9:18 AM on March 13, 2010

> Where did you kick Crispin Glover?

In the Castro.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:34 AM on March 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

That had to hurt.
posted by brundlefly at 9:44 AM on March 13, 2010 [3 favorites]

EmpressCallipygos : I actually had the opportunity to ask Jeff Goldblum about what the watermelon was doing there, but chickened out.

In case you still want to know, one geeky version of the answer I mention here, the other more real and kind of funny answer, from the DVD commentary, suggests that it was to see if any one from the studio was actually paying attention to the dailies they were sending.
posted by quin at 10:15 AM on March 13, 2010

Whoops, "here" should be here, the linked here above goes directly to the answer without the warning that knowing it will strip away that part of your soul which secretly doesn't want to actually know why the watermelon was in the vice.
posted by quin at 10:19 AM on March 13, 2010

And yet you haven't left.

I love your site, and I love most of your contributions to MeFi, but God do I wish you would stop making these childish comments in every single thread where you smell the possibility of a flame-out.
posted by Dumsnill at 11:22 AM on March 13, 2010 [9 favorites]

> In the Castro.

I was there and can corroborate that this happened. He was polite about it, pretended not to notice.
posted by contraption at 1:34 PM on March 13, 2010

> Where did you kick Crispin Glover?

In the Castro.

I nominate this for Metafilter Best Euphemism 2010.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:47 PM on March 13, 2010 [9 favorites]

uncanny hengeman made a throwaway comment that's only "homophobic" if you live in a world where you rarely see real homophobia. I live in a world where I see real homophobia all the time and this is not it.

He then acted like kind of a douche. But he got called out in a thread titled "Unreal" and accusing him of homophobia. So although his douchitude may be inappropriate but there some understandability there.

Assuming the truth of his comments, he might be obnoxious. But this whole thread, except for the debate over the 5th Element, is a shining example of pure suck for many reasons.

This is why I made my earlier "street cred" remark, although it was in jest. It would be nice if people could just have some perspective and grow up. This pile-on is incredibly self-righteous and stupid.

Also, The Fifth Element sucks.
posted by Trapped Vector at 3:24 PM on March 13, 2010

I watched The Fifth Element so many times when I got my wisdom teeth out that my mother banned the film from ever entering our home. I've got to say, I loved it anyway, but it's even better when stoned on Percoset.

SUPER GREEN!
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:36 PM on March 13, 2010

uncanny hengeman made a throwaway comment that's only "homophobic" if you live in a world where you rarely see real homophobia.

Whatever you want to call it in the world you live in, his comment was disrespectful of women and lesbians, and his follow-ups were along the same lines. If it quacks like a duck, etc.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:38 PM on March 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

MetaFilter: it's even better when stoned on Percoset
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:54 PM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Flo! Nice to have ya back bro.
posted by netbros at 4:19 PM on March 13, 2010

Oh, I'm late on this but I'm also really happy to see IRFH back ;-)
posted by toodleydoodley at 4:37 PM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Also, The Fifth Element sucks.

The Fifth Element does not suck. and it's even better in spanish.

"¿son...son...allemanes?"
posted by toodleydoodley at 4:39 PM on March 13, 2010

uncanny hengeman made a throwaway comment that's only "homophobic" if you live in a world where you rarely see real homophobia. I live in a world where I see real homophobia all the time and this is not it.

This is where it starts. Maybe there are degrees of homophobia, but none of them are acceptable.
posted by aclevername at 4:40 PM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

if you live in a world where you rarely see real homophobia

I lived in a homeless shelter for gay hustlers in Los Angeles for six months. It's a bad idea to presume how much homophobia somebody has witnessed.
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:34 PM on March 13, 2010 [4 favorites]

Thanks, netbros! Thanks, toodleydoodley! It's good to be back. The super majority of you here are... well, super. The rest of you are either duper, or kælɪˌfrædʒəlˌɪstɪkˌɛkspiːˌælɪˈdoʊʃəs/, or... well, you know. Like family. The kind of family you pay exorbitant sums of money to total strangers to talk about. But family, just the same.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:43 PM on March 13, 2010

posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:39 AM on March 12 [has favorites +] [!]

Kiss of rhetorical death: Favorited by Crabby Appleton.
posted by humannaire at 6:00 PM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Kiss of rhetorical death: Favorited by Crabby Appleton.

Who gives a shit? That sort of thing is way more bullyingerish than telling an asshole they're acting like an asshole. Favorites don't matter*, who gives them out even less so.

*Unless someone is taking favorites as license or incentive to act like a tool. But that is hard to prove, so from a practical POV, they do not matter.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:18 PM on March 13, 2010

Talk to your kids about Mathis/Mortin confusion before it's too late.

So I'm now in San Fransisco and The Dude drove my taxi from the airport (seriously, he may not have been Jeff Bridges, but he was the Dude) and then a car BURST INTO FLAMES and we had to take such a big detour that he turned off the meter and it turns out it's both the day of the St. Paddy parade AND a game developers expo so I kept overhearing chatter about FINAL FANTASY WUT? And then I hunkered down in a bar until I realized I was surrounded by the NYT Style Section (Hi! I'm Katilynne and this is Helena, we skipped a grade) so I just very publicly read my book about zombies and now I'm going to Li Po's until I pass out from jet lag.


Man SF why are y0ou always having some kind of awesome spasm when I visit?
posted by The Whelk at 6:24 PM on March 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

Kiss of rhetorical death: Favorited by Crabby Appleton.

Please don't do this.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:25 PM on March 13, 2010 [3 favorites]

uncanny hengeman made a throwaway comment that's only "homophobic" if you live in a world where you rarely see real homophobia. I live in a world where I see real homophobia all the time and this is not it.

What, if you're not beaten to a pulp in a back alley it doesn't count? Lemme break this down for you as to how this sort of condescending pooh-poohing is homophobic "enough" to be hateful.

Dismissal of the girl's professed sexual orientation is on the basis of a facile stereotype -- she's too attractive and feminine. Ergo lesbians, particularly the ones who want to wear a tux, are unattractive and mannish. So the girl is a liar who is aspiring to be something unattractive. That's a pretty weirdly specific and ugly and projecting thing to lay on a teenage girl about her own identity. (Also, fucking bizarre. There's plenty of cute femmey lesbians out there.)

I guess this is how homosexuality was considered mental illness for so long. Why would anyone willingly profess to be something despised -- they must be crazy or disturbed or hate themselves. Or pulling a stunt. ANYTHING but telling the truth. Great thing to communicate to a teenage girl who's got the whole school mad at her because the administrators flipped their toupees over a girl wearing trousers and a jacket, eh?
posted by desuetude at 6:38 PM on March 13, 2010 [7 favorites]

I'm late to the thread, but I just wanted to say that as a nerdy forty-something straight woman from the cultural blackhole that is rural central Kansas, I felt pretty hip that I already knew what LUG meant.

The fact that I used the word "hip" means I'm not hip, doesn't it? *sigh*
posted by amyms at 6:47 PM on March 13, 2010

Gary Oldman was unsexied in Fifth Element! I couldn't believe it! He can be sexy as Sid Vicious and sexy as Dracula, and sexy as Arthur Dimmesdale, even. OF course, my sexy Gary Oldman choice is either his role in Leon or as the baddie in AFO.

Now I have to watch Fifth Element solely so I can see if this is possible. I have a Finnish friend whom, whenever he was drunk and on Skype, I would make say the line 'I have crossed oceans of time to find you, Elizabeta' because oh sweet god was it like auditory sex with the accent and the melting voice.

Homophobia is not just a terrible tragedy that has affected the lives of millions of people and many of my dear friends. It is also utterly gauche. When someone makes homophobic comments I know immediately that they're not worth my time or conversation.

It is not because gay people are so fashionable or anything weird and stereotypical like that. It's because to dismiss people because they don't have the same emotional and physical responses that you do indicates, to me, a grave lack of imagination and a limited intellect, just as dismissing people based on their race does.

I know that seems like a completely trivial way to characterize homophobia, but it is also an important element in fighting prejudice. People would much rather be seen as mean than be seen as socially inept, as I think this thread tends to bear out.
posted by winna at 7:05 PM on March 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

Dismissal of the girl's professed sexual orientation is on the basis of a facile stereotype -- she's too attractive and feminine. Ergo lesbians, particularly the ones who want to wear a tux, are unattractive and mannish.

Also: the oh-it's-just-a-phase aspect of LUG/BUG/GUG. You'll eventually buckle down and get around to chasing after the biologically-appropriate genitalia. You know, like a real man/woman.

It's always fun to have that thrown around.
posted by CKmtl at 7:15 PM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Sexuality is fluid.

And how.

loquatious: Hell, when I was in high school can't believe I'm typing this I was absolutely fascinated by that part at the back of a girls knee. Whatsitcalled, a knee-pit?

popliteal fossa
posted by toodleydoodley at 8:00 PM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

This is why I made my earlier "street cred" remark, although it was in jest. It would be nice if people could just have some perspective and grow up. This pile-on is incredibly self-righteous and stupid.

Wait, wait, so being an actual homosexual personage doesn't give me enough street cred? Ok, I went to a women's college where "LUG" was thrown around all day every day. There, does that count?
posted by liketitanic at 8:15 PM on March 13, 2010

Kiss of rhetorical death: Favorited by Crabby Appleton.
posted by humannaire at 9:00 PM on March 13 [+] [!]

Who gives a shit? That sort of thing is way more bullyingerish than telling an asshole they're acting like an asshole.

Sorry about that. I honestly [heart] CA for CA being so 100% CA.

Getting favorited by Crabby Appleton is a rare treat, an honor in a lot of brave and courageous ways. I have my own take on things. Whoops and sorry and thanks, Alvy.
posted by humannaire at 9:11 PM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

(walking back to the hotel)

ME (to BF) : Look no one is calling you an idiot

RANDOM FRAT GUY ON STREET: You're an idiot!

ME: YOU DON'T COUNT!


Reals life is more like metafilter everyday.
posted by The Whelk at 9:26 PM on March 13, 2010 [11 favorites]

Favorites don't matter

You're not from around these parts, stranger.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:43 PM on March 13, 2010

Every favorite grants me just a little more power toward godhead.

I wanna have a snake head!
posted by The Whelk at 9:48 PM on March 13, 2010

RIDE THE SNAKE
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:54 PM on March 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

MR. TOAD'S WILD RIDE.
posted by The Whelk at 10:00 PM on March 13, 2010

When I favourite your comment, that means you will not be going to hell.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:19 PM on March 13, 2010

Wait, wait, so being an actual homosexual personage doesn't give me enough street cred? Ok, I went to a women's college where "LUG" was thrown around all day every day. There, does that count?

No. It's way too late. The damage is done whether you're just you or you're a paraplegic lesbian tranny into jogging fetishes. Doesn't matter.

Also, I dislike Ira Glass.
posted by Trapped Vector at 10:21 PM on March 13, 2010

popliteal fossa

Wow, that's somehow even less sexy sounding than "knee pit".
posted by loquacious at 12:00 AM on March 14, 2010 [2 favorites]

When someone makes homophobic comments I know immediately that they're not worth my time or conversation. [...] to dismiss people because they don't have the same emotional and physical responses that you do indicates, to me, a grave lack of imagination and a limited intellect

There is some tension between these two thoughts, and I find that people of great imagination are still capable of nursing the most fantastical grudges and narcissistic habits. I won't discount Ezra Pound or Richard Feynman simply because they're not always my idea of good Menschen.
posted by kid ichorous at 3:44 AM on March 14, 2010

There is tension between the two thoughts, but I think one is more about with whom I'd like to have conversation and the other is about creators of culture.

I might be vastly amused by Feynman's books and admire some of Pound's poetry, for example, but there's no way I'd want to socialize with either of them.
posted by winna at 5:42 AM on March 14, 2010

So you're saying you're better than Ezra?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:32 AM on March 14, 2010 [2 favorites]

Gary Oldman's strange accent in The Fifth Element gets me every time.
posted by ovvl at 9:02 AM on March 14, 2010

Really late to the thread but I just want to say that I'm a lesbian and I loved the "Prom lesbians: a feature not a bug" comment, because I was allowed to bring my partner to prom and my friends were definitely happy I was there. I was certainly a feature at the prom, because they would have missed me if I hadn't been allowed to go.

Also, it would have been a feature for me if there had been other lesbians there too. Strength in numbers and all that.
posted by arcticwoman at 9:40 AM on March 14, 2010 [4 favorites]

much ownage itt. Very Nice
posted by Damn That Television at 12:52 PM on March 14, 2010 [1 favorite]

I just want to join the welcome committee for IRFH. Welcome, comrade!
posted by languagehat at 3:19 PM on March 14, 2010

Note: 'fark' is not actually used commonly in Australia. Someone may be mistaking the work 'fuck' when pronounced with an Australian accent and five syllables for the work fark. Or they may simply be an idiot.

As far as boorish Australian enclaves, the northern states win that particular shit-eating fight as far as popular thought goes - in reality it's pervasive everywhere.

Ugh, I hate feeling like I should apologise for people from Australia.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:46 PM on March 14, 2010

But, really, after the first 20 people have beat the guy into a bloody pulp you don't really have to kick him in the stomach while he's down.

*thinks about this for a minute - thinks about what an unrelenting asshat uncanny trollman has been throughout the thread - kicks uncanny trollman in the stomach*

Wow. Just wow. [I think that’s what the cool kids say on metafilter]

Looks like if you’re a member of the cool kids club you’re allowed to fantasise about physically assaulting fellow MeFites if you don’t agree with what they say.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 5:20 PM on March 14, 2010

If metafilter is going to over-governed in this kind of heavy-handed and artless way, I think it may be time to say goodbye.

wat

Looks like if you’re a member of the cool kids club you’re allowed to fantasise about physically assaulting fellow MeFites if you don’t agree with what they say.

wat

I'm out of words. I'm reduced to blurfling at the screen in baffled bafflement.
posted by scrump at 5:29 PM on March 14, 2010

Looks like if you’re a member of the cool kids club you’re allowed to fantasise about physically assaulting fellow MeFites if you don’t agree with what they say.

Just to recap:

A. Uncanny hengeman was arguing that people shouldn't interpret his homophobic, misogynistic opinions seriously enough to call them that. They're "just opinions".

B. He is now arguing that people should take flapjack's comment on full face value, as written.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:34 PM on March 14, 2010 [2 favorites]

*sympathy blurfl*
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 5:40 PM on March 14, 2010 [2 favorites]

Yeah, um, uncanny, what the cool kids really do is understand that a metaphorical kick in the stomach is a metaphorical kick in the stomach. In my 52 years on the planet, I've never actually kicked anyone in the stomach, and I don't expect I ever will. Were I to meet you in real life, I can assure you I wouldn't kick you in the stomach, or anywhere else.

Now, lessee... did you ever answer rtha's question? You know the one I mean. If you did, forgive me, cause I might've missed it. But... I don't think you ever did. And I know a number of us asked you to answer it. Answering that question would be something the cool kids would do. But anyway, I don't think you're a cool kid. I still think you're a troll.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:53 PM on March 14, 2010 [1 favorite]

Open up your heart.....
posted by The Whelk at 5:56 PM on March 14, 2010

strap me to the front of a rocket car and drive it into a wall made out of diamonds .
posted by Damn That Television at 6:30 PM on March 14, 2010 [1 favorite]

Diamonds are the Damned best friend
posted by The Whelk at 6:42 PM on March 14, 2010

Diamond Jaws. SLYT*

*self link YouTube
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:15 PM on March 14, 2010

Happy Pi Day! I've got a Pineapple Pie in the oven! Overdetermined? Me?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 7:19 PM on March 14, 2010

The ratio of the diameter to the circumference of that Pineapple Pie is DELICIOUS
posted by The Whelk at 7:20 PM on March 14, 2010

Pi day was yesterday here in Jay-pan-land, and I'm delighted to say i attended a bona fide Pie Party. We consumed several pies, home-baked for the occasion by our gracious hostess, who is a hella pie chef. Yay!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:24 PM on March 14, 2010 [1 favorite]

So you're saying you're better than Ezra?

Whoever Ezra is he or she is must really suck if those guys are better than him/her.
posted by Pollomacho at 4:40 AM on March 15, 2010

Beware the Pies of March!
posted by Mister_A at 7:49 AM on March 15, 2010

Looks like if you’re a member of the cool kids club you’re allowed to fantasise about physically assaulting fellow MeFites if you don’t agree with what they say.

Actually, as a therapist once said to me, "Lauren, you have my permission to have sadistic fantasies about x " (fill in your blank here)...that's the great thing about fantasies -- they're just that, FANTASIES. Usually we keep them private, so nobody else can judge them. Sometimes (as in the lulz girl-on-girl action comments referred to above) we share them in an inappropriate forum and they get deleted. My understanding is that this fantasy might be on topic for MetaTalk -- which does seem at times like that group therapy I went through once.

You are allowed to object to said fantasy, as you have, Uncanny. But Flapjack's fantasy, no matter how sadistic (and no matter how much I personally disagree with voicing sadistic fantasies) does not negate that a lot of well-informed people took you to task over your opinion because it was not a well-thought-out, educated opinion.

If anyone actually assaults you over this, it's a crime and the perpetrator will be rightly persecuted.
posted by lleachie at 11:43 AM on March 15, 2010

Uh, prosecuted, right?
posted by Mister_A at 11:50 AM on March 15, 2010

No, no - this is MeTa. We do persecuting here. If it's prosecution you want, that's three doors down, across the hall.
posted by rtha at 12:10 PM on March 15, 2010 [3 favorites]

Er, prosecuted. And maybe persecuted on MeTa as well, I don't know... Oops.
posted by lleachie at 2:01 PM on March 15, 2010

If thinking about two girls getting it on turns your crank, well, that's a different issue, but in this case we're talking about two children, so sex shouldn't really come into the discussion. They're just a couple of kids who need acceptance, understanding and kindness from adults...

Um...isn't Prom Night a traditional night for American high school students to lose their virginities? I kinda thought that's what was at the heart of this row.
posted by magstheaxe at 6:52 AM on March 17, 2010

.isn't Prom Night a traditional night for American high school students to lose their virginities?

Let me amend your sentence to make it answerable in the affirmative: isn't Prom Night a traditional night for American high school students in the movies to lose their virginities?

In reality, it becomes a night to go through the motions of a formal event, in an archaic ritual built on presumed preparation for the sophisticated pleasures of adulthood, and to attempt to have some fun despite the awkwardness and expense and overblown nature of the event. A lot of people will have already lost their virginity long ago, and those that have not are not likely to do so on prom night more than any other night. It seems to me that the goals of prom night are to (a) get away with drinking a lot at some point, either before, after, or sneakily during the event, and (b) stay up all night with your friends.
posted by Miko at 6:58 AM on March 17, 2010 [1 favorite]

Um...isn't Prom Night a traditional night for American high school students to lose their virginities? I kinda thought that's what was at the heart of this row.

Miko has it -- this happens in the movies.

The "heart of this row" is that the school feels that by allowing a same-sex couple to attend, that the school will be perceived as giving their stamp of approval to a same-sex couple as an acceptable thing. I'm assuming that they feel they don't wish to do that.

(Personally, my own prom was more about finding out that the other things movies say about proms -- that the cute guy you've had your eye on all year will be awestruck by your beauty -- was a damn lie, and that at the heart of it it's just another school dance with better dresses.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:45 AM on March 17, 2010

I skipped my Prom to drive around aimlessly with a dude I met on the internet before getting stoned and making out in his car in an empty parking lot. I'm pretty sure I made the right decision.
posted by The Whelk at 10:27 AM on March 17, 2010 [4 favorites]

Empress, if that "cute guy" wasn't awestruck by your verbal facility and your derrière (both of which are awesome, although I have to take your word for the latter), he just wasn't worthy of your attention.
posted by Crabby Appleton at 11:25 AM on March 17, 2010

Has there ever been a case in a Teen Movie Drama where in we get to the big prom scene and Our Heroine has had the whole makeover montage set to "I Wanna Be A Supermodel" and gotten a designer dress through wacky misunderstandings and she goes to the Prom and meets up with the Hunky Boy Of her Dreams (whom we've never actually seen talk much) and he goes something like

"Wow Beth! When did you get tits?:

"I- guess anything is possible?"

:True that "- takes swig from flask - "Lemme dump Jess here, yer good for a swing" - holds out flask - "you party?"

"You know ...Chet. I thought there was something wrong with me cause guys like you didn't even notice I existed- but now I know the truth. You're just a gigantic douche bag

Heroine Walks away, Chet has confused look on his big meaty face. Heroine turns, walks back, and kicks him in the nads.

"And THAT's for making fun of my sister"

Our Heroine and her sister walk out "Lets get out of here" "I know, this dress is riding up my ass."
posted by The Whelk at 11:47 AM on March 17, 2010

Actually, Whelk, they were going to do something akin to that with Pretty In Pink -- Molly Ringwald was supposed to run into Duckie at the prom and they were supposed to bond together all "yay we're friends and we're gonna have fun at the prom as buddies!" But audiences didn't like it. Feh.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:58 AM on March 17, 2010

Interestingly enough, I also took a gay person to the prom. I didn't get into the news for it or anything, since to all outward appearances we displayed the genders then considered appropriate to prom-dating. He was a close friend, and even had he wanted to challenge the mores of suburban New Jersey in 1987, he wasn't seeing anyone at the time. Neither was I, so we became default dates for one another. It was OK, I guess. I wore an 80s Victorian-revival Jessica McClintock number, he wore a brocade morning coat picked up at some thrift shop. We tolerated the prom part and then went to the Ramada Inn and had some drinks, and then hung out on the beach with some friends til morning. Woo hoo.

If these gals can have more fun than that, I'm behind them all the way.
posted by Miko at 1:16 PM on March 17, 2010

Me too.
posted by Crabby Appleton at 8:10 AM on March 18, 2010

Um...isn't Prom Night a traditional night for American high school students to lose their virginities? I kinda thought that's what was at the heart of this row.

Miko has it -- this happens in the movies.

I can't be the only one. Sophomore year, 1988 prom. No, prom's not like most movies portray it (my wasn't either), but it's a natural occasion for two young people to get it on, and if they are 15, 16, 17, there's a good chance it's their first time.

Having said that, if any high schoolers are reading, I wouldn't recommend prom as a time to break the seal. Too many other factors--booze, people busting in on you, etc.--just pick an innocuous night, tell each of your parents you're spending the night at a friend's, then rent a motel room. Or date a girl who lives with her grandmother.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:19 PM on March 18, 2010

My advice? If you can, go to summer camp. Or an travel/trekking program. Or arts program. Nothing like the Great Outdoors. Or your own dorm rooms!
posted by Miko at 1:37 PM on March 18, 2010

"I'm going to the movies!"

walk out door, walk out of sight. Get in car, drive to abandoned parking lot and then the macking.
posted by The Whelk at 4:56 PM on March 18, 2010

Just get a partner with semi-neglectful parents.Or someone who has a relatively young, beer-providing sibling with their own place.

Alternatively, get it on with someone in college. I suggest someone who has their own room, or at least has a predictable roommate who actually goes to class at specified times.
posted by internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 at 10:19 AM on March 19, 2010

No, no, no. If AskMe has taught me anything, it's that both parties need to talk about this at length and agree, well in advance, to whatever sex acts will be performed. Then schedule a time and location.

When: Tuesday (May 22, 2010) @ 8:40pm
Where: My uncle's couch
What: Awkward groping leading to unsatisfying oral. BYOB

posted by LordSludge at 12:00 PM on March 19, 2010 [1 favorite]

Actually, Whelk, they were going to do something akin to that with Pretty In Pink -- Molly Ringwald was supposed to run into Duckie at the prom and they were supposed to bond together all "yay we're friends and we're gonna have fun at the prom as buddies!" But audiences didn't like it. Feh.

The folklore i heard was that miss ringwald couldn't stand Jon Cryer and insisted on a rewrite.

If there is any truth to this it may also explain why her career evaporated.
posted by djduckie at 7:55 AM on March 22, 2010

The folklore i heard was that miss ringwald couldn't stand Jon Cryer and insisted on a rewrite.

The DVD has that alternate-ending scene, so I strongly doubt this folklore (I really don't think she'd have had enough pull to demand a rewrite after they SHOT the scene in question).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:59 AM on March 22, 2010