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Not too old to fuck, either.
August 13, 2010 10:45 AM   Subscribe

Am I the only one seeing the ageism and sexism here?

Chinabound: how is a 30-year-old woman who put her career first and only has a few years of beauty left able to compete with what was previously the prime age for marriage?

they [women over 30] can't kill them [women under 30] off, so they will try to use social stigma to guilt men into going against their most basic instincts [to only find women under 30 attractive enough to fuck]. when the majority of Playboy models and other in demand models are 30 year olds I will accept that men no longer harbor this instinct. until then, I refuse to buy into the social brainwashing that exists in certain geographical areas and in a very narrow span of time when taken as a whole.

I think he means that men finding women over 30 attractive is no more than social brainwashing.

Oh, my poor husband, 16 years my junior! He's obviously nothing but a zombie I have hypnotized with my awesome Powers of Senescence!

We've had the not-too-fat-to-fuck threads and the not-too-disabled-to-fuck threads and now it's time for a not-too-old-to-fuck thread.

Also, I majored in anthropology and have a master's in women's studies, and have NEVER heard of any "clans" in which the older women kill off the younger ones. Although if I'm wrong, it will be duly noted.
posted by xenophile to Etiquette/Policy at 10:45 AM (168 comments total) 6 users marked this as a favorite

People, some people, not most of the people in that thread, are just being weird and lazy and relying on stereotypes. I think you may be taking this a bit personally, but I deleted that weird nonsense comment right before the MeTa callout. It's easier for us if you don't quote really weird/offensive comments because it makes them easier to delete.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:49 AM on August 13, 2010 [5 favorites]


Is Mercury in retrograde or something? There's been a lot of bickery, hopeless, unbelievably condescending crap going down around here lately and lots of folks have been intentionally misunderstanding and misrepresenting each other.
posted by kalessin at 10:51 AM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


Well, of course you don't hear about the clans! We do a good job of killing off anyone who discovers our secret! I mean, uh, nice Friday, eh?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:52 AM on August 13, 2010 [13 favorites]


Thank you, xenophile. I also majored in anthropology and my bullshit alarms started going off at that little "theory" of his. (Assuming the poster is a guy because I really don't want to believe most women could be that self-hating.)
posted by Sara C. at 10:53 AM on August 13, 2010


are you ever too old to fuck? :p *eyes 24 year old bartender speculatively* on preview giggles at pink superhero
posted by infini at 10:54 AM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


> Is Mercury in retrograde or something? There's been a lot of bickery, hopeless, unbelievably condescending crap going down around here lately and lots of folks have been intentionally misunderstanding and misrepresenting each other.

Metatalk is in permanent retrograde.



> are you ever too old to fuck? :p *eyes 24 year old bartender speculatively* on preview giggles at pink superhero

You should maybe delete most of your comments before hitting post.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:56 AM on August 13, 2010 [16 favorites]


Holy moly. I'm actually kind of impressed by Chinabound's misogyny, womanizing, and detachment from reality. Clearly, women in Playboy are the epitome of beauty and attractiveness!

We usually hear the argument the other way - and it's the one I tend to agree with - that we are brainwashed into thinking youth is beauty. But this -- this --- wow!
posted by jabberjaw at 10:56 AM on August 13, 2010


Things are often in retroGRAR around here.
posted by rtha at 10:58 AM on August 13, 2010


kalessin: "Is Mercury in retrograde or something"
Now you're hating on Queen, real classy kalessin.
posted by boo_radley at 10:58 AM on August 13, 2010 [8 favorites]


Was there only one comment? The viewpoint of only one person? Now that the comment is deleted, xenophile, do you think this thread is still needed? For some reason, I predict only bad things coming out of the rest of this thread.
posted by grouse at 11:01 AM on August 13, 2010 [3 favorites]


are you censoring me, burhanistan?
posted by infini at 11:05 AM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


I predict only bad things coming out of the rest of this thread.

I can spend the next little while talking about foxy 30-something ladies. Meow.
posted by chunking express at 11:08 AM on August 13, 2010


This,

"I think he means that men finding women over 30 attractive is no more than social brainwashing."

is a poor translation of,

"when the majority of Playboy models and other in demand models are 30 year olds I will accept that men no longer harbor this instinct.".

I suspect that what the quoted poster means is that men finding women over 30 to be more attractive as a rule than women under 30 is no more than social brainwashing. There's a good bit of difference between that and the first quote.

That said, the offending post in the AskMe thread was a derail and good riddance to it.
posted by BigSky at 11:10 AM on August 13, 2010


Clearly *BURHANISTAN* is to blame for this sort of *BURHANISTAN*. I don't think we're likely to *BURHANISTAN BURHANISTAN* until *BURHANISTAN*.

This comment approved by #46088.
posted by hermitosis at 11:12 AM on August 13, 2010 [5 favorites]


This week I think mefites are too cranky to fuck.
posted by desjardins at 11:16 AM on August 13, 2010 [24 favorites]


Whoops! Didn't realize it was deleted or going to be deleted. It was there for a couple days and I kept thinking about it.
posted by xenophile at 11:16 AM on August 13, 2010


Whoops! Didn't realize it was deleted or going to be deleted. It was there for a couple days and I kept thinking about it.

Did you flag it?
posted by andoatnp at 11:17 AM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


So MeTa is the inexperienced hiker who sucks the poison out of his compatriot... and then swallows it?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 11:17 AM on August 13, 2010


Allow me to insert "reptile-bitten" in there. Although as is it might be a bit more pleasant turn for the thread.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 11:19 AM on August 13, 2010


Can't you see the violence inherent in the system??
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:19 AM on August 13, 2010


This week I think mefites are too cranky to fuck.

I'll be in a much better mood after, I promise.
posted by hermitosis at 11:19 AM on August 13, 2010 [5 favorites]


You can also use the Contact link to contact the mods if you want an answer on something, eliminating the possibility of it disappearing invisibly into the flag queue.
posted by grouse at 11:19 AM on August 13, 2010


argle bargle sssppppp hoppity hoppity hop smack whack grrrrr.


Some days I read the words and they get translated into so much gibberish. My partner suggested we have a high-technology free weekend and I'm thinking that just might be a good thing.
posted by edgeways at 11:20 AM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


This week I think mefites are too cranky to fuck.

Whoops, I didn't get that memo...
posted by scody at 11:20 AM on August 13, 2010 [4 favorites]


they [women over 30] can't kill them [women under 30] off, so they will try to use social stigma to guilt men into going against their most basic instincts [to only find women under 30 attractive enough to fuck]. when the majority of Playboy models and other in demand models are 30 year olds I will accept that men no longer harbor this instinct. until then, I refuse to buy into the social brainwashing that exists in certain geographical areas and in a very narrow span of time when taken as a whole.

Anyone who thinks that het men are "instinctively" turned on by women under 30 has never had any sort relationship with a woman over 30 who was not his mother.

The "social stigma guilt trip" wankery is also very troubling.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:21 AM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


sighs, you mean another week?
posted by infini at 11:23 AM on August 13, 2010


Pony request: all new members to receive, and be compelled to read, a detailed document explaining all the very many ways in which ultra-simplistic pop-evolutionary-psychology arguments have been comprehensively discredited by actual researchers in human sexuality (including plenty of evolutionary psychologists), and how when you use these arguments in Metafilter the main impression you give the rest of us is that you're kind of insecure.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 11:26 AM on August 13, 2010 [18 favorites]


game warden to the events rhino: I'm not a new member, but I'll read those materials. Source?
posted by Jaltcoh at 11:33 AM on August 13, 2010


Is Mercury in retrograde or something? There's been a lot of bickery, hopeless, unbelievably condescending crap going down around here lately and lots of folks have been intentionally misunderstanding and misrepresenting each other.

I've kinda just been seeing this everywhere of late. The weather is fucking awful. This is my explanation. I figure, a couple more weeks of this shit, then some normal, then Thanksgiving starts creeping in and everybody hates each other again.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:35 AM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


I've been cranky for the last few days because I was waiting for Project Wonderful to approve my Publisher application. It came through today! So now I promise to be all sunshine and rainbows and magic frogs with funny little hats.
posted by Gator at 11:40 AM on August 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


This week I think mefites are too cranky to fuck.

Read your dumb comment.
I got all GRAR
I called you on on MeTa
I'm ready for war

Now I'm all riled up
You're out of luck
I'm flagging your bullshit
Too cranky to fuck!
posted by griphus at 11:42 AM on August 13, 2010 [19 favorites]


I suspect that what the quoted poster means is that men finding women over 30 to be more attractive as a rule than women under 30 is no more than social brainwashing. There's a good bit of difference between that and the first quote.

I don't understand this any better than I understood the original statement. I think I may actually just be misunderstanding all of these statements, so I'm sincerely asking for clarification. What does this mean?

It seems to me that our society is training us to find women under 30 more attractive as a rule than women over. I can think of magazine after magazine, movie after movie, tv show after etc... that glorifies women under 30 as sexual ideals and either depicts women over 30 as people who lament their lost beauty or outright shoves them down the oubliette without so much as a word. So where would the social brainwashing come in if someone finds women over 30 more attractive as a rule?

The original comment seemed to posit, (obviously without much credit) that women over 30 all guilt men about being attracted to women under 30 so much that men default to dating women over 30 in order to cave to pressure. I mean, this is simply and clearly made the fuck up. Even though people will criticize a man for dating younger than he is (and women for doing the same, in all gender and sex orientations), men and women both continue to do so all the time and the larger societal message about what is and is not desirable far outweighs any gossip and/or pettiness from friends and relatives in terms of defining what being attractive entails.

for real, I cannot understand these comments, and am confused as hell about what the OP was even trying to say. Was it meant to be a fist in the air? like, "I'm going to date young women, fuck the status quo!" or was it meant to imply that women over 30 should get over the fact that they're older than he or she is attracted to? The whole thing feels so totally backward that I just don't get it. Is it some statement that women under 30 are provably more attractive as though that's not a subjective statement? Is it meant to say that it's not possible for someone to find a woman over 30 more attractive than a woman under?

honestly, every interpretation of this comment seems stupid and wrong to me. help me out, here.
posted by shmegegge at 11:50 AM on August 13, 2010 [5 favorites]


fucking stop that.
posted by shmegegge at 11:54 AM on August 13, 2010 [11 favorites]


It seems to me that our society is training us to find women under 30 more attractive as a rule than women over. I can think of magazine after magazine, movie after movie, tv show after etc... that glorifies women under 30 as sexual ideals and either depicts women over 30 as people who lament their lost beauty or outright shoves them down the oubliette without so much as a word.

That's just movies. Real life is more complicated (and more real).
posted by KokuRyu at 11:56 AM on August 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


Fucking recipe fucking fuck fuck. Goddammit. Now I'm too cranky to fuck unless it's some vampire neck twisting hate fucking.
posted by Babblesort at 11:59 AM on August 13, 2010 [3 favorites]


yes, I know. hence the rest of my comment.
posted by shmegegge at 12:00 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


c-c-c-combo breaker. dammit.
posted by shmegegge at 12:01 PM on August 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


This recipe thing is getting out of hand. It's like that nervous friend of yours who confuses a tense atmosphere for an aggressive one and starts playing the fool because he thinks it will lighten the mood. Except it's only funny the first few times, and the non sequitur-ness gets straight-up annoying when there's an actual discussion going on. I'm not calling you out personally, tlats, it's just been bugging the hell out of me.

Anyway, we're quite fortunate in that what society wants us to do is very, very rarely what happens. Look at your Facebook friends. How many of their S.O.s are remotely fitting the ideal of the zeitgeist's opinion of "attractiveness." Obviously they didn't all settle -- in the resigned-settling way, not in the way we all put aside our ideals for reality -- so, we're doing pretty good I think. Despite the vocal opinions we hold, our actions as mature adults tend to speak louder and, usually, hopefully, more enlightened.
posted by griphus at 12:06 PM on August 13, 2010 [20 favorites]


ahem... excuse me. Had a little moment there. I'd like to register my displeasure with the whole phenomenon of injecting recipes into what is otherwise a discussion.
posted by Babblesort at 12:08 PM on August 13, 2010 [9 favorites]


So Gator, how did you do that to your profile?
posted by Sailormom at 12:09 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


Truly the lemon juice compote that broke the camel's back.

And yeah, add me to the chorus of people who find this fad to be utterly obnoxious. Besides, who wants to eat food that reminds them of MetaTalk?
posted by hermitosis at 12:11 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


I'd like to register my displeasure with the whole phenomenon of injecting recipes into what is otherwise a discussion.

Amen.
posted by y2karl at 12:14 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


Sailormom, it's grandfathered in from the Good Old Days when everybody was able to add custom CSS to their profile pages. Eventually, due to security concerns, Matt had to lock them down. As long as I don't go in there to change anything, it stays. I think I'm one of the last few people to still have a custom user page.

Soooooo glad to see the recipe thing is finally getting the wide disdain it deserves.
posted by Gator at 12:15 PM on August 13, 2010 [3 favorites]


i am over forty, does this meta mean i am doomed?
posted by infini at 12:17 PM on August 13, 2010


High-five, Gator!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:19 PM on August 13, 2010


(I also find the recipe thing to be annoying, but that particular recipe is actually pretty funny, so)
posted by Greg Nog at 12:21 PM on August 13, 2010


they [women over 30] can't kill them [women under 30] off, so they will try to use social stigma to guilt men into going against their most basic instincts [to only find women under 30 attractive enough to fuck].

Fortunately I find that behaviour incredibly hot. Man, older women rock.
posted by Decani at 12:26 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


Yes, please. Knock off with the random recipes, real or fake. It's not amusing any more.

Of course, so are ageism/sexism MeTas, so knock those off as well.

And no complaining about this comment in a new MeTa; that would be too recursive.
posted by yhbc at 12:28 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


that particular recipe is actually pretty funny

I have already developed an immediate reaction to flag anything resembling a recipe, which I did before realizing it was a joke.
posted by yeti at 12:29 PM on August 13, 2010


It's like that nervous friend of yours who confuses a tense atmosphere for an aggressive one

That's what they're doing! Thank you. I've been trying to figure this out for weeks, both IRL and here.
posted by edbles at 12:30 PM on August 13, 2010


Dammit, yhbc, that comment just overloaded the recursion-limiter coil in the server. And this one just blew out the backup one!
posted by griphus at 12:30 PM on August 13, 2010


Better that we have recipes than the usual mob pileon.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:31 PM on August 13, 2010


for real, I cannot understand these comments, and am confused as hell about what the OP was even trying to say. Was it meant to be a fist in the air? like, "I'm going to date young women, fuck the status quo!" or was it meant to imply that women over 30 should get over the fact that they're older than he or she is attracted to? The whole thing feels so totally backward that I just don't get it. Is it some statement that women under 30 are provably more attractive as though that's not a subjective statement? Is it meant to say that it's not possible for someone to find a woman over 30 more attractive than a woman under?

I think the OP was trying to say, "I have been teased by my peer group about how young the women I date are and also I have this ax and you have provided me a grindstone."
posted by edbles at 12:34 PM on August 13, 2010 [11 favorites]


Better that we have recipes than the usual mob pileon.

I have no idea why people would want to hash out an already-deleted comment (except to vent), but if they want to do so, then no, recipes are a damned obnoxious way to interject.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 12:41 PM on August 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


I don't understand this any better than I understood the original statement. I think I may actually just be misunderstanding all of these statements, so I'm sincerely asking for clarification. What does this mean?

My take on it is, to quote you, "some statement that women under 30 are provably more attractive as though that's not a subjective statement". And while that is certainly a subjective assessment, there's a good bit of consensus as well.
posted by BigSky at 12:50 PM on August 13, 2010


My name is Buck, and I'm here to note my disappointment over the sexist, ageist assumptions in that post.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 12:50 PM on August 13, 2010 [6 favorites]


[Recipe removed. Cut it out.]
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:06 PM on August 13, 2010 [32 favorites]


The worst part of the whole recipe thing is that they are completely wasted. Because, when I'm reading metatalk, I'm not thinking about what I'm going to cook, they just end up being useless white noise that I skim irritably past to get to the next comment that is properly off-topic.

And because, if I'm actually looking for a recipe for something, I'm never going to remember the search terms to pull up a random meta thread, so it fails in both utility and distraction.

Which isn't to say we shouldn't do something with recipes, they just have no use here.

Also; ageism, let's not do that either.
posted by quin at 1:08 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


I also don't like recipes in MetaTalk. I like flameouts.
posted by chunking express at 1:14 PM on August 13, 2010 [6 favorites]


It boggles my mind that someone's reading MeTa closely enough to pickup the recipe meme, but not the multiple instances where the mods have told them to cut it out. Very glad for the deletion, in this case. The site loses nothing if we make that the norm.

Except recipes.
posted by SpiffyRob at 1:20 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


I like flambé.
posted by ericb at 1:22 PM on August 13, 2010


Wait, was something just deleted from MetaTalk? How often does that actually happen? I don't like this passive-aggressive recipe stuff either, but Cortex must REALLY be horked about it.
posted by charred husk at 1:28 PM on August 13, 2010


Now you're hating on Queen, real classy kalessin.

I do try to keep it classy.
posted by kalessin at 1:28 PM on August 13, 2010


It boggles my mind that someone's reading MeTa closely enough to pickup the recipe meme, but not the multiple instances where the mods have told them to cut it out.

Well actually it seems like culturally recipes are actually okay post-apologies and explanantions in the wind down at the bottom of a relatively civil discussion thread. It's early recipe bombing that has everybody's hackles raised and that distinction might be lost on someone looking for lulz.
posted by edbles at 1:29 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


It did lead to the amusing situation where schmeggege says "fucking stop that" to himself apparently.
posted by smackfu at 1:29 PM on August 13, 2010 [40 favorites]


Can we add a corollary to the "no recipes" thing with a "no 'OMG PIE OR CAKE GUYS? WHICH PIE U LIKE??'" shit that derails serious discussion threads as well?
posted by kkokkodalk at 1:38 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


It's early recipe bombing that has everybody's hackles raised and that distinction might be lost on someone looking for lulz.

There's seldom completely uniform agreement about when a conversation is over. So in reality, it's some proportion -- a majority usually, granted -- saying "fuck you; this is no longer entertaining or constructive" to the remainder. Much like the bingo card nonsense, it's a refusal to respect others enough to even permit them to have their say without dropping in a giant, steaming (cinnamon and nutmeg sprinkled) turd.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 1:42 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


Wait...if Metatalk is more regulated and people have to be on topic, that would mean that we would have to get....lives. Damn.
posted by Burhanistan at 1:42 PM on August 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


edbles: “Well actually it seems like culturally recipes are actually okay post-apologies and explanantions in the wind down at the bottom of a relatively civil discussion thread. It's early recipe bombing that has everybody's hackles raised and that distinction might be lost on someone looking for lulz.”

Recipes are an acceptable method of rounding out sometimes-heated interactions, but bonobos choose to use sex, and I have always believed that they are quite wise in this. And I think sex would work better than recipes for finishing out the end of arguments in metatalk.

However, I think sex probably would have the same difficulty that recipes have here. That is, I'm sure that bonobos privately complain to each other about those certain cloying friends and family members among them who always to try to hastily finish off any hostilities by initiating sex prematurely. "Damn it, Uncle Reginald is going around the table giving everyone blowjobs again! I mean, fucking hell, Reg – it's just a conversation. We're not actually angry at each other. There'll be plenty of time for sucking cock once the discussion winds down."
posted by koeselitz at 1:42 PM on August 13, 2010 [11 favorites]


Recipe backlash. Who would have guessed. I'm making those blueberry muffins that fixedgear linked the other week tomorrow, that's all I know.
posted by Kwine at 1:42 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


Better that we have recipes than the usual mob pileon.

Yes, because on MeFi, snide passive aggression is so much more respectable than honest conflict.
posted by Decani at 1:46 PM on August 13, 2010 [3 favorites]


Well actually it seems like culturally recipes are actually okay post-apologies and explanantions in the wind down at the bottom of a relatively civil discussion thread. It's early recipe bombing that has everybody's hackles raised and that distinction might be lost on someone looking for lulz.

The problem is I don't even think there's a real way to discern what counts as "early bombing," mostly because it's so rare for a MetaTalk thread to have a sort of joint consensus on when a discussion is really over. And more often than not, even when recipe (or 'which pie') derailing occurs waaaaaaaaay late in the MeTa thread, it still comes off as someone trying to force a resolution and possibly drowning out other participants who might want to further discuss a topic. And no matter how benign it reads so obnoxiously especially when the topic at hand is something heavy like sexism, racism or bad community behavior, what have you.
posted by kkokkodalk at 1:46 PM on August 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


much more respectable than honest conflict

I'm not positive that honesty has much to do with it.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:53 PM on August 13, 2010


The problem is I don't even think there's a real way to discern what counts as "early bombing," mostly because it's so rare for a MetaTalk thread to have a sort of joint consensus on when a discussion is really over.

I dunno when a thread that was originally about someone being sexist or whatever turns into a discussion of the Fifth Element and how awesome it is I think it's safe to assume you're in safe recipe territory. There's a point at which all viewpoints have been sufficiently articulated and then someone comes charging in 2 days later with the same gripe that started the callout not having read the whole thread. Recipes and generally lulzing around shut out that relighting the fire behavior. Then again so does a lack of eyeballs.
posted by edbles at 2:01 PM on August 13, 2010


In answers to kalessin's question, Mercury goes into retrograde on August 20. So there's that to look forward to.
posted by blucevalo at 2:07 PM on August 13, 2010


In answer, singular
posted by blucevalo at 2:07 PM on August 13, 2010


Don't worry blucevalo, I flagged your typo as an html/display error and I am sure a mod will fix it shortly.
posted by cjorgensen at 2:14 PM on August 13, 2010


I dunno when a thread that was originally about someone being sexist or whatever turns into a discussion of the Fifth Element and how awesome it is I think it's safe to assume you're in safe recipe territory.

Nope, it still shits up the thread. And hopefully enough of us will continue to flag them as noise taht people get the hint.
posted by Space Coyote at 2:16 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


Recipes and generally lulzing around shut out that relighting the fire behavior

Closing the thread would be better than any of it.
posted by smackfu at 2:16 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


I'm not positive that honesty has much to do with it.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:53 PM on August 13


Possibly. But I would suggest it has a tad more to do with it than a fucking recipe.
posted by Decani at 2:17 PM on August 13, 2010


Basically who are you to come in and tell people to stop talking about something. Just close the window and go on to a newer thread or go play with your kids or something.
posted by Space Coyote at 2:17 PM on August 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


Was there only one comment? The viewpoint of only one person? Now that the comment is deleted, xenophile, do you think this thread is still needed?

Jessamyn said we could come here to fight and damn it I came here to fight, and I don't care about what. Fuck people who post recipes and fuck "the usual mob pileon" too.
posted by Mike1024 at 2:20 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


Basically who are you to come in and tell people to stop talking about something.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:17 PM on August 13


Who am I to come in an tell people to stop talking about anything? Why, I will tell you, you impertinent whelp! I am MR WHY DON'T YOU USE A FUCKING QUESTION MARK WHEN YOU ASK A FUCKING QUESTION? That's who I am!

Look on my works, ye mighty, and whinge.
posted by Decani at 2:26 PM on August 13, 2010 [3 favorites]


Every time I look in on this thread I remember -- oh yeah, it is Friday the 13th! I guess that explains it.
posted by bearwife at 2:44 PM on August 13, 2010


since we're talking metatalk derails in here now (man, that really is meta) - over in the other thread down there - even though i think that thread has done all the good or bad it could do, some people came in late to discuss the issue of the thread, the person the thread was about responded - actual discussion about the topic at hand - and someone told them to stop derailing the true blood conversation.

i think sometimes the recipe thing can be fun or relieving - but it's just way too often and way too early now. even the funniest joke is bad on the thousandth telling.
posted by nadawi at 2:48 PM on August 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


bearwife: "Every time I look in on this thread I remember -- oh yeah, it is Friday the 13th! I guess that explains it"

When the majority of slashed Crystal Lake campers are 30 year olds I will accept that unstoppable killers no longer harbor this instinct. until then, I refuse to buy into the social brainwashing that exists in certain geographical areas and in a very narrow span of time when taken as a whole.
posted by Drastic at 2:49 PM on August 13, 2010 [5 favorites]


oh yeah, it is Friday the 13th! I guess that explains it.

I got stung by a wasp today, on my face. My husband remarked that it was Friday the 13th and I heatedly started to tick off the number of Bad Things that have happened to me on days that were not Friday 13. He laughed and confessed he had been teasing me-- he knows how much I hate superstitious crap.

So I'm cranky. And looks wise...well let's say a giant, flaming-red lump on my upper cheek doesn't help. So here's my take: If you don't want to fuck anyone over-30 that's fine with me. I get fucked plenty and I'm not going to try to change anyone's mind over who or who isn't sexually desirable. Let's just say that the women over 30 are relieved that you foist your insecure, shallow ass on the younger girls who don't know any better.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:50 PM on August 13, 2010 [12 favorites]


Let's just say that the women over 30 are relieved that you foist your insecure, shallow ass on the younger girls who don't know any better.

- I/P
- Circumcision
- Apple vs. MS
- Obesity
... - Age & Beauty. Check.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 4:14 PM on August 13, 2010


I am so thrilled to hear people are giving the thumbs down to recipes appearing here. I have seen a few Meta threads where someone introduces them well before the discussion had 'run its course' and basically as a way of shutting discussion they weren't enjoying down. It's really childish and annoying and I'm surprised the meme lasted as long as it did.
posted by stinkycheese at 4:37 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


89 comments 36 fucks....

I really think where should have a f-quotient listed along with the metadata on each post.
posted by edgeways at 4:42 PM on August 13, 2010


Yes, because on MeFi, snide passive aggression is so much more respectable than honest conflict.

The incredibly self-referential nature of this comment makes me inordinately happy.
posted by Justinian at 4:42 PM on August 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


You can kill the recipe bombing but 7 other annoying practices will sprout in its place.

MARK ME.
posted by everichon at 5:01 PM on August 13, 2010


*starts heating up the cattle brand*
posted by av123 at 5:24 PM on August 13, 2010


Not what I expected to be the first result in a search for Mark.
posted by Lemurrhea at 5:29 PM on August 13, 2010


If you're not fucking when you're cranky, you missing out on some good stuff.
posted by nomadicink at 5:46 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


The recipes have always chapped my ass, and I'd love to see them go, or at least be limited to the final gasps of a nearly dead thread.
posted by Forktine at 5:53 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


Harold: You sure have a way with people.
Maude: Well, they're my species!
posted by jenkinsEar at 6:16 PM on August 13, 2010 [3 favorites]


I'm okay with the recipes.

That's probably all I have to say on the subject.
posted by anitanita at 6:18 PM on August 13, 2010


Here's why this thread rules:

It rules because it is being dominated by a gigantic self-congratulatory derail about how awful recipes are! Complaining about recipes is the new recipes! Soylent Green is people! Ape has killed ape!
posted by Mister_A at 6:27 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure if I'm on the same side as the OP. I date 18 and 19 year olds at every opportunity, but I'm not so fist shakey at people who don't. Hell, billions of people like to fuck men, which I find pretty incomprehensible, but whatever, man.
posted by planet at 6:34 PM on August 13, 2010


The recipes have always chapped my ass...

Are you cranky RIGHT NOW?!
posted by nomadicink at 6:49 PM on August 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


ja... And perhaps a tad hungover
posted by infini at 7:01 PM on August 13, 2010


this thread is kinda like being high and coming into contact with someone else who is also high and you both start giggling at the exact same stupid shit

The food discussion depresses me, as I am a horrible cook, and it is all lost on me.
posted by angrycat at 7:20 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


I am MR WHY DON'T YOU USE A FUCKING QUESTION MARK WHEN YOU ASK A FUCKING QUESTION?

This appears to be a statement and probably shouldn't end with a question mark.
posted by breezeway at 7:21 PM on August 13, 2010 [8 favorites]


For clarity, one could write it as "MR. 'WHY DON'T YOU USE A FUCKING QUESTION MARK WHEN YOU ASK A FUCKING QUESTION?'"

OR, one could eschew the period in favor of "MISTER," which may work a little better than "MR." in this idiom. I don't advise the bare "MR" which looks like it could be some internet initialism.
posted by Mister_A at 7:30 PM on August 13, 2010


On the other hand, there is a long list of people whose names contain question marks (?):

?uestlove
Whodis?
etc.
posted by Mister_A at 7:32 PM on August 13, 2010


can we have a not-to-drunk-to-fuck thread?
posted by Snyder at 7:40 PM on August 13, 2010


I'm not there yet, honey, but I'm getting close, so we'd better make hay while the iron is hot.
posted by koeselitz at 7:57 PM on August 13, 2010


Am I the only one seeing the ageism and sexism here?

Not a goddamned chance of that, around here.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:01 PM on August 13, 2010 [4 favorites]


can we have a not-to-drunk-to-fuck thread?

Not until you are sober enough to spell it.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:12 PM on August 13, 2010 [10 favorites]


Better that we have recipes than the usual mob pileon.

Yeah, those are getting really boring, Mefi-related or not. It's nice that people are so passionate and...tolerant? Is tolerant the word for people who wave their fists at other people? But yeah, it's awesome that people have opinions about all sorts of things, and that fifty people are upset enough about a comment somebody has made to leave a comment of their own, despite the fact that the original commenter probably has the picture by now (hey everyone look at me, I disapprove also!), but really, shut up. And, hey, look at me!
posted by turgid dahlia at 8:32 PM on August 13, 2010


METAFILTER: There's been a lot of bickery, hopeless, unbelievably condescending crap going down around here lately and lots of folks have been intentionally misunderstanding and misrepresenting each other.
posted by philip-random at 8:55 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


It seems to me that our society is training us to find women under 30 more attractive as a rule than women over.

By "our society" do you mean pretty much the entire human race? Where are all these places where men do not prefer younger women sexually? (For that matter, where do women not prefer youthfully virile men?)
posted by pracowity at 10:06 PM on August 13, 2010


Are you cranky RIGHT NOW?!

Hell no. I've eaten a great dinner, had some superb beers, and all with fun and flirty conversation with friends. Whatever cranky is, I'm not.

And even so, those stupid recipe derailments bug me, in that irritating "ha ha, in-joke!" kind of way. Maybe I'm just not cool enough to sit with the awesome crowd, or something.
posted by Forktine at 10:09 PM on August 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


>>can we have a not-to-drunk-to-fuck thread?

>Not until you are sober enough to spell it.


I am in love with Jessamyn.
posted by Forktine at 10:11 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


Not until you are sober enough to spell it.

what if I'm sober enough to not spell it? eh?
posted by Snyder at 10:47 PM on August 13, 2010


I don't advise the bare "MR" which looks like it could be some internet initialism

Or some kind of graduate degree that you shouldn't pay for.
posted by tangerine at 11:33 PM on August 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


XXIV.
And upon the mention which has been made, to give a Dowry and a Pension to the Mother Dowager of the said Prince, and to his Sisters; his Sacred Imperial Majesty (according to the Affection he has for the Palatinate House) has promis'd to the said Dowager, for her Maintenance and Subsistence, to pay once for all twenty thousand Rixdollars; and to each of the Sisters of the said Lord Charles Lewis, when they shall marry, ten thousand Rixdollars, the said Prince Charles Lewis being bound to disburse the Overplus.


-I guess they must be pretty important.
-Why, because they don't have shit all over them?
-Well, that, plus they are getting special personal cash gifts in an international peace treaty.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:51 PM on August 13, 2010


which planet were you visiting?
posted by infini at 12:47 AM on August 14, 2010


'cos I want a ticket to ride ;p
posted by infini at 1:50 AM on August 14, 2010


I see ageism and sexism absolutely everywhere I look, dahlink.
posted by telstar at 2:20 AM on August 14, 2010


By "our society" do you mean pretty much the entire human race? Where are all these places where men do not prefer younger women sexually? (For that matter, where do women not prefer youthfully virile men?)

No, I basically only meant 1st world western countries similar to America. I try not to talk about all cultures as though they were identical as a rule. There may or may not be other cultures that do not do this. I don't know. Considering that what other cultures do isn't my point, I don't know what you're going on about.
posted by shmegegge at 2:25 AM on August 14, 2010


This week I think mefites are too cranky to fuck.

I'm too cranky because I HAVEN'T fucked.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:30 AM on August 14, 2010


I suspect there's a lot of that going around, EC. Much of it in this. Very. Room!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:20 AM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]


I had a good night's sleep and woke up NOT cranky (even though my left eye is swollen shut) and I regret having written this: Let's just say that the women over 30 are relieved that you foist your insecure, shallow ass on the younger girls who don't know any better. It is too dismissive without a lot of caveats, one being that the age of the guy makes all the difference in the world. You're 30 and you find under-30's more attractive? Cool. It's natural. You're over 40 and you find under-30's more attractive? Hmmmm. You're 50 and you find under-30's more attractive? Alarm bells.

True story: my brother went to a high school prom 5 years in a row. He just happened to be dating 18-year-olds when he was 17, 18, 19, 20, and then 21. He is now 49 and still wants to date 18-year-olds. So does my father who is 73. Both have major cases of arrested development and their sexual desires have nothing to do with whether the woman is funny, experienced, intelligent, or kind and everything to do with how firm her flesh is and how perky her boobs.

For that matter, where do women not prefer youthfully virile men?

I, on the other hand, find under-30 men unattractive. Seriously. They seem "unformed" to me, too needy, too uncultured, too raw. I can easily imagine how difficult it would be to find topics of conversation and how clumsy I would find them in the bedroom. I also don't like the way most under 30's dress. Crows feet, a little gray hair, confidence without jackassery-- these things start arousing my interest.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:22 AM on August 14, 2010 [6 favorites]


I'm too cranky because I'm getting too fucked by work!
posted by nomadicink at 6:24 AM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]


I am fine and having a nice sunny saturday watching the previous tenant of my one room apartment pack her stuff for the final move out thus finally letting me have my own real apartment that I can furnish and unpack and move into.

However, I hear what the Empress is saying very loud and clear and Kitten's comment is resonating with me strongly ;p mmm hmmm yes crows feet, gray hair and certain je n'est sais quoi with a sprinkling of savoir faire is what I'm musing upon ;p
posted by infini at 7:06 AM on August 14, 2010


1) I don't know what the heck a recipe is. Anybody want to explain?

2) wish my whole post had been quoted; my words have been twisted around a couple times. What I am saying is: There is brainwashing that pursuing a younger woman is "bad", "pervy", "creepy" etc.; there are basic drives that are inherent in males that lead us to value youth and beauty and pursue it. (See "The Evolution of Desire (second ed.). New York: Basic Books" + below link + research marriage ages by period and geographic region to expand your view on this)

3) I was, in fact told, in my university days, that females in certain cultures eliminated their younger competition

4) your anthropology class apparently didn't cover China among other cultures. Google concubine rivalry etc and you will see how when the supply of males was limited females would go as far as to kill off the competition (normally a newly arrived/younger concubine/consort). It is so well-accepted a theme that there are a ton of books, poems, plays, and now movies reflecting the time period. Of course given the racist, xenophobic and myopic views I've seen here [which I won't expound upon here, but more or less sound like "our '1st world western countries' with our Caucasian-European ways are better" or simply put the idea that the rest of the world should follow our "standards" even if they are not congruent with our own history. e.g. EU dictating to Africa about child soldiers for example while forgetting its own recent history (Clausewitz the author of On War, the celebrated analysis of conflict, entered the Prussian army at 12 I believe.)] I'm not surprised at the lack of tolerance for an opposing view.

5)Read Darwin. Are we not affected by the same evolutionary forces and drives?

"The sexual struggle is of two kinds: in the one it is between the individuals of the same sex, generally the males, in order to drive away or kill their rivals, the females remaining passive; while in the other, the struggle is likewise between the individuals of the same sex, in order to excite or charm those of the opposite sex, generally the females, which no longer remain passive, but select the more agreeable partners. ¡ªCharles Darwin, 1871" --note he said "generally the males".

Examples are abound in nature of the females killing off the competition (and her offspring), and I proffer (and have seen evidence) that most instincts including mating competition carry over into human behavior. My post may have simplified a bit for brevity and effect, but even if the behavior does not manifest itself with actually killings these days, the psychological underpinnings are one of the most basic competition (lethal). Same with men and fighting. We don't actually kill each other --oh I guess we do --but when we fight the instinct behind it is trying to kill or subdue the opponent. The point being that the elements and motivators of sexual selection are still at play.

"Sexual selection acts on an organism's ability to obtain (often by any means necessary!) or successfully copulate with a mate."

Even if you don't believe me in regards anthropological examples (which can be found!) it doesn't really matter. I could be completely exaggerating the extent of the behavior but the underlying instincts that drive the behavior are well documented even if the nuances and specifics are in dispute. (too many wiki links to post, but you can find it in your research of sexual selection and the aforementioned references).

6) the OP of the question was obviously in mental anguish about approaching a woman who is younger. I proffer this is a societal construct of limited geographic and historic significance. I ended with the example of a 49 yo marrying a 21 yo--President Grover Cleavland about a century ago to show that his desire is not in fact outside of what was the norm not that long ago and to point out the apparent disconnect with today's standards. Posting an opposing point of view is not a derail especially if said poster is obviously suffering from the mental anguish caused by the social construct. (For the record, I am notadvocating the same examples from the article. I am showing that our world view might be a bit limited.)

7) My bone to pick: the insinuation in other posts of this nature that an individual is "doing something wrong" or there is something creepy in being attracted to younger women.

8) I simply did not state anything along the lines of what xenophile wrote. Only that men tend to prefer younger women as evidenced by the popularity and demand of women in the 18-25 age bracket in the popular media. (see also: Age Preferences in Mates... opening blurb)

9) Personally, I was engaged to a 29 yo at the age of 19. It was great, but didn't last. I also was pressured out of pursuing a girl of 17 when I was 22 for marriage despite her being far more mature than me and the apparent blessing of her father by my best friend and out of fear of being ostracized. I bought into the social construct (since I was poorly read at the time) and have regretted it ever since. It is especially troubling when I have seen older more responsible suitors rejected for age and replaced by younger suitors who had less than pure intentions and treated the young lady in a bad manor (running off after getting them pregnant in a few cases). And again personally, as I have hit the big 3-Oh I have found my own attractiveness waning with females that want a youthful appearance. To acknowledge this is not to engage in "self-hatred" as posted above. It just happens to men and women both. Just not equally. I am less attractive than I used to be at 21. Do I hate myself now because of it? That is one heck of a logical leap.

10) women over 30 can of course be attractive. Humans are complex creatures and a lot comes into play beyond pure physical attraction. Traits that attract men tend to be somewhat ingrained by instinct and possessed by relatively younger females. This is well established. females' physical attraction wanes over time, generally speaking. That's just the way it is. (see above)

11) I'm not an anthropologist; I teach Econ on the side. If there is a finite amount of time that a woman maintains her beauty and the male derives utility (satisfaction) from this, it only stands to reason that a rational male will choose a mate that will maximize his utility (amount of time with a beautiful woman)--cēterīs paribus of course.

12)
"Clearly, women in Playboy are the epitome of beauty and attractiveness!"
Well...yes; those and the other examples I mentioned: Ms. World etc. (But, I also reject many of our society's ideas of beauty by the way (except the age factor) and am not the Barby type and think it's horrible women have the pressure they do to meet these "standards").

"We usually hear the argument the other way - and it's the one I tend to agree with - that we are brainwashed into thinking youth is beauty. "
Totally true. But then we are brainwashed into thinking "something is wrong with" us if we pursue that beauty. See previous posts to that effect. I'm saying something is wrong with the calling a guy a perv for liking a 21 yo and it has limited historical precedent to expect him not to.

13) "The original comment seemed to posit, (obviously without much credit) that women over 30 all guilt men about being attracted to women under 30 so much that men default to dating women over 30 in order to cave to pressure. I mean, this is simply and clearly made the fuck up. Even though people will criticize a man for dating younger than he is (and women for doing the same, in all gender and sex orientations)" You don't see the contradiction? Made up? But then you say people do criticize those men. I added the emphasis to highlight your extreme language--in the SAT sense of the word.

14) "I'm not sure if I'm on the same side as the OP. I date 18 and 19 year olds at every opportunity, but I'm not so fist shakey at people who don't."

I was not being fist-shakey, I was telling the poster of the question that he shouldn't let people make him feel bad for pursuing a 21 yo. Recent threads on the topic have seen people getting attacked with adjectives like I mentioned above. I am providing a counter point--a point that aligns with more of the word than many would like to acknowledge.

15) "No, I basically only meant 1st world western countries similar to America."

WT Heck? This is what I mean about a ethnocentric and myopic world view. The longer I live away from the US and read the more I realize how crazy it is for people in the US/EU to apply their standards to the rest of the world as if they hold the moral high ground. And to do so smacks of a certain kind of racism, xenophobia, and superiority complex that I find incredibly disheartening. That is my main beef, if there is any.

16) The irony of a community that embraces one type of sexual preference but not another is striking. (read the DSM article for some shockers & compare the prevalence rates with other forms of sexuality--even if that is not what I am advocating)

I am not going to stick around to debate this any more, and I will refrain from posting an opposing point of view in the future since it will be deleted. I'll stick to mainstream thought or not speak at all. I have work to do. But I will read the further comments perhaps.
posted by chinabound at 8:38 AM on August 14, 2010


I'm having a Morbo moment here.
posted by Gator at 8:45 AM on August 14, 2010


There is brainwashing that pursuing a younger woman is "bad", "pervy", "creepy" etc.

That's not brainwashing, it's cultural mores. Which are not bad, per se - every culture has values and social norms above and beyond our biological drives. It's what makes us human.

In fact, that's the basic problem with all of your posts. You don't seem to understand that there is a difference between what our bodies want us to do in order to satisfy basic needs like reproduction, and what our cultures tell us to do based on far more complicated social needs and desires.

Chinese concubines didn't compete to the point of murder because of their evil, evil biological clocks. They were doing so because of social pressure to bear a son for the head of the household which would increase their status among the wives and potentially put them in line to hold a lot of power and material wealth upon the death of the patriarch.

And of course that has little or nothing to do with the male desire for younger women in 21st century America (aside from the constant presence of patriarchy and a "Gotta Get 'Em All!" approach to sexuality). All you have to do is look around in our culture and you will discover that men certainly find women over thirty attractive - grok the number of married couples wherein the wife is over thirty, the number of women in their thirties who get pregnant and bear children, etc.
posted by Sara C. at 9:12 AM on August 14, 2010 [8 favorites]


Some of what you are saying is uncontroversial, chinabound. Some I would argue is controversial (but true). And some of it is wrong-headed.

As I read you:

i) single women of different ages are in competition with one another for mates
ii) physical attractiveness still rules dating selection (see endless studies) despite what people may say (I add this in to make sense of the rest of what you say)
iii) physical attractiveness skews young across populations (or people think it does; see dating data and endless complaints about solicitation from older men)
iv) a common reaction to younger mate selection by men is denigration of such a selection (as shallow, or similar -- see this very thread)

I'm with you so far.

Here's what I don't see:

v) this reaction belonging solely to women. Older woman/younger man is still less common than the reverse, but I hear the same defensive comments from (some) men, seemingly for the same reason
vi) men being "guilted" into relationships they don't want. I'll admit to putting forward an "in the alternative" argument here. I don't see it happening, but if it is, that's pretty sad, and I don't think the blame for this can lie with anyone other than the person who is living with what they do not want
vii) as I often point out, it is a marketplace. Not everyone gets what they want. It's one thing to think you want young, hot person X -- fantasies are cheap. The reality may be quite different (either that they do not want you, or that it isn't what you imagined it to be). Your mates complaining to you about how society is keeping you from these young hot women! strikes me a little bit facile.

I also don't buy this "brainwashing" nonsense, either that men are brainwashed into "settling" for mates of a certain age, or that they're brainwashed into wanting younger or thinner mates in the first place. That's an extremely convenient, unprovable explanation for preferences and realities of the sexual marketplace that might otherwise feel just a little bit threatening.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:43 AM on August 14, 2010


Totally forgot to add: the basis of modern psychology was based on Freud who not only believed girls can be so jealous as to want to kill, but that it would be directed at their own mothers! It's called an Electra complex. Sure you've heard of it. So I'm not just making this stuff up. Yes I realize the acceptance of the classical theory is not universally accepted.

Go sit in a club for a while. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "I'll kill that bitch" or some variant from a girl who was shown up by another in competition for a man or just men in general I would be rich.

watch what happens when two girls wear the same dress to the same party?

Search Google or video site for catfight + boyfriend or any other number of variants. Some of them get extremely violent to the point that the crowd wasn't there permanent damage or death could ensue if they are kicking someone face into the pavement. There are hundreds of these videos out there. Still think I'm exaggerating? the more I think about it the more I realize it happens more than I thought when just posting.

Even among friends, fights break out over men. It's the basic competition of sexual selection instinct. Who here has notknown someone who hasn't had a fight over a guy at some point. Is it such a stretch to say that the latent instinct to kill competitors is not still at play here? (whether it is age or beauty or whatever)

I personally recall a young lady bragging about taking out a small knife from her necklace and intentionally disfiguring the face of another young women in the club because "she thought she was all that and could get my men" or words to that effect and basically tried to kill her later. Her account was verified by others.

Search Google for murders, attempted murders or assaults committed by women with jealousy or competition as a motive.

Search for cases where women killed children to make themselves more available. (This happens in the animal kingdom sometimes) I read of this but can't remember where. Oh yeah i do..

Am I still making this up?

Someone will certainly generalize and say I am generalizing here and saying all women are this way. Certainly not. But the latent(?) drives are there in the background feeding competition. Making a man feel bad for wanting a younger mate is just one way to accomplish the same thing.
posted by chinabound at 9:46 AM on August 14, 2010


Seriously, dude, this is your thesis?

Search Google for murders, attempted murders or assaults committed by women with jealousy or competition as a motive.

Existence of A doesn't disprove B, but... search google for murders, attempted murders or assaults committed by men with jealousy or competition as a motive. In fact, search classic literature for same.

This is not the conversation I thought it was. I will leave you to it.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:49 AM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]


The existence of female jealousy does not prove that all men want 18 year olds and scorn women their own age, while all women over 30 are willing to kill for the chance at reproduction.

Also, isn't the Electra Complex the reverse of what you are talking about? A man who presumably values his wife as an equal partner of his own age and maturity level, a woman who is presumably over 30 (she has a daughter old enough to be 'competitive' with) who wants to keep what she already has, and a young women who wants to "steal" her mother's man.

If you're trying to say that women over thirty are all jealous bitches willing to kill in order to fulfill our biological destiny, the Electra Complex (such that it reflects reality at all) is the opposite of proof.
posted by Sara C. at 9:52 AM on August 14, 2010


Search Google or video site for catfight + boyfriend or any other number of variants.

I, too, hope someday to have a PhD in YouTube.

Sorry, sorry. Magic frogs, funny little hats.
posted by Gator at 9:56 AM on August 14, 2010


Go sit in a club for a while. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "I'll kill that bitch" or some variant from a girl...

Honestly, I was confused, because I was expecting that statement to come from a male in a club. Because club relationship/power/social dynamics can get pretty fucked up, so using them as example of anything other than how messy relationships can get seems odd.
posted by nomadicink at 10:24 AM on August 14, 2010


Voice recognition having problems, wasn't going to respond anyway, so I'll be brief:

"That's not brainwashing, it's cultural mores. Which are not bad, per se - every culture has values and social norms above and beyond our biological drives."

I recognize that. I do. Hence by reference to other cultures

But,
> is it really a cultural norm? or have peoples' feelings just been silenced by PC'nesh? is it a passing fad? how well is it entrenched?
>we have seen widespread abandonment of cultural mores (prop 8). some people are saying mores change
>am I in the culture? I don't know. I am actually looking for a home outside the US at this point and feel more and more removed. (not for these reasons)

"In fact, that's the basic problem with all of your posts. You don't seem to understand that there is a difference between what our bodies want us to do in order to satisfy basic needs like reproduction, and what our cultures tell us to do based on far more complicated social needs and desires. "

Er.. um.. yes I do. Since you haven't spoken to me about other topics I can't blame you for thinking that. I was celibate when I mentioned the 17 yo old. I was attracted to her, but was not pursuing an immediate sexual relationship with her. The problem is our culture, very suddenly abandoned the historical norm or mores as you say.

"Chinese concubines didn't compete to the point of murder because of their evil, evil biological clocks. They were doing so because of social pressure to bear a son for the head of the household which would increase their status among the wives and potentially put them in line to hold a lot of power and material wealth upon the death of the patriarch. "

Actually, they did. They did what you said too, so you are right as well. But they also competed simply for affection as well.

And I didn't say men don't find women over 30 attractive. Said explicitly that I did not say that. These factors do matter. It reflects human behavior. Just because the clock turned on a new century doesn't mean that all these things are suddenly irrelevant. The "Get 'em all" thing is not good and is also recent (albeit a recurring resurgence of past behavior that has gone up an down in acceptance throughout time)


Durn, I'm right there with you mate.

But,

v) I didn't say this is exclusive to women. The OP was talking about being older and approaching women; my answers are in that context.
vi) it happened to me, it happened to people I know. For various reasons I had really low-self confidence in standing up to my friends, so I acquiesced. It is the individual responsibility, but pressures often make a difference.
vii) i agree :-) This isn't really about what I want, but was talking about the situation in general. My happiest relationship was older and not all that attractive by traditional standards.

Ok. Brainwashing is an inappropriate word. Saying so it to engagein hyperbole, but it isn't really coming across the way I want it. The appropriate word would be "pressured" or "influenced by".


Ok, no more really. Haven't typed this much in a year. type=pain. won't be able to sleep.

I appreciate the last couple of responses: appropriate, thoughtful, and no ad homonym attacks and surprisingly tolerant. Thank you. :-) I'll continue to read, but probably won't post.
posted by chinabound at 10:25 AM on August 14, 2010


Knock it off, chinabound.
posted by jokeefe at 10:26 AM on August 14, 2010


I don't know what the heck a recipe is. Anybody want to explain?

A recipe is a list of ingredients that make up a certain entree, dessert, or other dish, along with instructions for preparing that dish.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:28 AM on August 14, 2010 [6 favorites]


"Existence of A doesn't disprove B, but... search google for murders, attempted murders or assaults committed by men with jealousy or competition as a motive. In fact, search classic literature for same.

This is not the conversation I thought it was. I will leave you to it."

Arrgh. Beat me to it. Sure, men are worse when it comes to this. I never said they weren't. I readily admit that. I even linked to an article about the same. I am providing evidence of the competitive and sometimes violent nature of sexual competition among women (and men for that matter) to show these instincts are still at play. Sorry to see you go.
Good night.
posted by chinabound at 10:30 AM on August 14, 2010


"Totally forgot to add: the basis of modern psychology was based on Freud who not only believed girls can be so jealous as to want to kill, but that it would be directed at their own mothers!"

Modern psychology was based on Freud in the way modern chemistry was based on alchemy. A lot of Freud's ideas are not commonly subscribed to by modern psychologists.
posted by rjs at 10:30 AM on August 14, 2010 [2 favorites]


I don't think it's the greatest lyric in the world, but I'm surprised nobody has cited good ol' Robby McDowall:
Everybody seems to love those younger women
From eighteen on up to twenty-five
Well I love 'em too, but I'm tellin' you
Learnin' how to really love, takes a little time.

So baby don't you worry about growin' older
Those young girls ain't got nothin' in you
'Cause it takes some livin', to get good at givin'
And givin' love is just where you could teach them a thing or two
Of course this is in many ways the same problem expressed oppositely, in that older women's desireablity is discussed in terms of what they do for men...
posted by Mngo at 10:45 AM on August 14, 2010


"A lot of Freud's ideas are not commonly subscribed to by modern psychologists."

Yep, hence this, "Yes I realize the acceptance of the classical theory is not universally accepted."

"
If you're trying to say that women over thirty are all jealous bitches willing to kill in order to fulfill our biological destiny, the Electra Complex (such that it reflects reality at all) is the opposite of proof." I was speaking to the urge or propensity to compete, perhaps with violence because of jealousy. In any context. Whenever the feelings of jealousy or manifest themselves. Point being that jealousy can lead to rage and violence in any number of circumstances.

"If you're trying to say that women over thirty are all jealous bitches willing to kill in order to fulfill our biological destiny.." No, that seems really harsh. But competitive instincts are at play I believe.

No Phd in youtube here (made me chuckle), but since I used to help teach (very minor, no master here) Kungfu and combatives, I used to study fights. Before youtube. Hundreds of them, often in slow motion. It's amazing the rage that can erupt and the base cruelty involved as people are essentially trying to kill each other often over ego and relationship jealousy. The number of fights that end with attempts to kill when the other person is on the ground is truly shocking, but less so when viewed through the instinct behavior of humans. I am not saying things should be this way, but they are.

"Because club relationship/power/social dynamics can get pretty fucked up, so using them as example of anything other than how messy relationships can get seems odd."

Might want to ponder what makes them so messed up. We just see the worst of it in the clubs sometimes. Makes me sad to realize that we still can't control these things. People are ascribing thoughts to me that aren't necessarily my own. I don't have beef with over 30 yo women. (my relationship with the woman 10 years my senior was just as much influenced by these same pressures by the way, but I've been trying to stick to the original theme) I just acknowledge the existence of traits and instincts I believe still influence our actions in competition for a mate and how it influences cultural pressures people exert.

Anyway, bed time for me. Really.
posted by chinabound at 10:57 AM on August 14, 2010


"watch what happens when two girls wear the same dress to the same party?"

Uh ... we laugh and complement each other on our obviously excellent taste? At least, that's what's happened to me every time I've worn the same thing as another woman.

"Who here has notknown someone who hasn't had a fight over a guy at some point."

A physical fight? Never. No one I know. Chicks before dicks, dude. Chicks before dicks. I'm hard-pressed to even remember any word-fights in competition over guys. I have to go back at least to high school and the only girl I can think of who tried to start a fight over a guy was kind-of insane to start with and clearly living in her own mental movie and assuming Hollywood was how emotional relationships played out.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:12 AM on August 14, 2010 [5 favorites]


It's not all just about gravity and its nasty effects, you know. I'm speaking here as a man, mind you, but at 37 I am way less likely to cheat on you or ask you for money or camp out for an indefinite period of time in your apartment so I don't have to live with my mom and say I'm looking for a job when I'm really watching The Young Ones on your VCR all day than I was might have been at the much more visually appealing age of 23. Nature makes our young pretty so we don't eat them, I have been told, and I can kinda see it sometimes.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:45 AM on August 14, 2010 [12 favorites]


Eponysterical.
posted by Mike1024 at 11:55 AM on August 14, 2010 [2 favorites]


watch what happens when two girls wear the same dress to the same party

What?

posted by Neofelis at 12:39 PM on August 14, 2010 [2 favorites]


watch what happens when two girls wear the same dress to the same party

Well, one incident does not make a rule ... but I did see this happen once. It was a big deal awards ceremony, and yes the duplicated dress in question was definitely "out there", trying to make statement, so EVERYBODY noticed. The outcome was thankfully uncomplicated. No violence. The second woman to arrive was just quick to leave.

For what it's worth, I remember nothing else about the occasion, except that I made a mental note to always avoid award ceremonies in the future. A pretentious and dull affair interrupted by boring speeches.
posted by philip-random at 1:12 PM on August 14, 2010


Go sit in a club for a while. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "I'll kill that bitch" or some variant from a girl...

I think this only proves that the types of girls who go to clubs are prone to overwrought statements. It doesn't say anything about the types of girls who do NOT go to clubs and who would moreover rather spit tacks and then gargle with vinegar before going to clubs.

(Seriously -- the only time I've been in a club it was because I was stuck in a taxi that was stuck in traffic and I really, really needed to pee. The cab pulled over, I begged at the front door, and they pointed me in towards the bathroom where I did the little-kids'-pee-pee dance behind two Bridge-and-tunnel types who stared at me oddly but still didn't let me cut ahead.)

As for "two girls wearing the dress to the same party", I honestly have only seen people get bent out of shape in this situation in 1950's situation comedies. Here in real life, the only thing that happened is one girl said to the other "hey, you stole my dress!" and they both laughed. Oh, and this was in first grade.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:30 PM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]


Huh. By my advanced age and your logic I should have participated in one hell of a lot of catfights by now and probably killed a whole bunch of younger women. Damn I hate it when I miss getting the memos. I don't think I even know any women who have ever been in a physical fight over anything. Sure, I've been jealous and sad - who hasn't? Yet I somehow refrained from killing anyone. I managed not to kill my kids either, although in hindsight that may have been somewhat of an error. I've even been to clubs without ever seeing anyone try to kill anyone else except possibly that was what the confusing performance art thing was all about (it was the 80s.) And when I was eleven I wore the same dress as four other girls to dancing school (it was on sale at the local kids shop) and all of us huddled in the bathroom sadly at first than came out all together and danced together too. So, um. I believe your research may be flawed, Morbo.
posted by mygothlaundry at 3:48 PM on August 14, 2010 [3 favorites]


More and more, chinabound's posts suggest that he believes (ostensibly heterosexual) women's primary way of relating to each other is via men and thinking about men, or at the very least that women's relationships with men will generally trump their interactions with each other.

Therefore, I think he fails the Bechdel test, and I am done watching his movie.
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 5:42 PM on August 14, 2010 [23 favorites]


So. This is still happening, eh?

How nice.
posted by Splunge at 10:02 PM on August 14, 2010


If I had these keen brainwashing abilities, I'd use them for money and power. And world peace, of course.
posted by taz at 1:11 AM on August 15, 2010


I'm really surprised that the thread has developed into an attempted discussion. I appreciate chinabound coming in to explain the original comment, I actually understand what you were trying to achieve and I simply feel sad that your life experiences have affirmed the kinds of evolutionary theory you point to. I have observed things like economic pressures influencing partner selection, I haven't luckily observed any physical fights or the kind of trash talking you offer as an example but I would put it to you in most societies there is far more common ground among women than the opposite.

We read about concubine murders but in those same societies millions of the non-elite women sang, sewed, trashed wheat, nursed each other's babies, and generally focussed on the simple struggle to survive which is made immesurably easier when you can find common ground especially with other women.

Many of these stories did not make it into official histories but a large number of historians are working in the field to throw some light on what the majority as opposed to the elites got up to. I think there is an element of confirmation bias in your reading of certain events you've witnessed but suggest that it isn't as common as you think. I agree there is evidence to suggest we are predisposed to seek out fitter, more attractive and more financially secure mates but when you actually look around you human relationships are far more complex than this predisposition due to societal influences. Some of those influences are negative but there's a lot of positives you don't appear to have experienced.
posted by Wilder at 2:27 AM on August 15, 2010 [7 favorites]


watch what happens when two girls wear the same dress to the same party

So at my old job there was this summer party and I tried but totally failed to find a dress to wear to it. I show up the day of the party and it looks like two people dressed me, one Amish and one colorblind. I see this girl wearing a dress which is exactly what I was looking for. It's perfect. So, um, I asked her where she got it, called the store, had them set one aside in my size, and made the friend I was taking to the party go grab it on his way. And I met up with him and changed on the way to the party. And I still own the dress, and it's one of my favorite dresses.

What happened? I don't think anything happened. I hope she wasn't mad. But I don't hope very hard because she and I didn't get along (she made me cry twice). No one said anything about it, and now I have a pretty dress!

So I guess... having a pretty dress is what happens when two girls (actually, women, but go ahead) wear the same dress to the same party.
posted by prefpara at 5:50 AM on August 15, 2010 [1 favorite]


I just came in here to say that I don't think I've seen anyone put macrons over "ceteris paribus" on MetaFilter in ... ever? Definitely the most eye-widening part of that comment for me, chinabound.
posted by Devika at 6:05 AM on August 15, 2010


I was thinking about this thread yesterday and the idea that society "brainwashes" people into acting in ways that run counter to biological urges. There is some truth to that, however "brainwashing" in this case really means educating people to be more socially acceptable.

Is it brainwashing when:

You learn not to wet the bed at night?

You pass on a second and third creme-filled doughnut because you don't want to be fat?

You suppress your burps and farts in front of strangers so you don't gross them out?

You use birth control so as not to make a baby every time you have sex?

You pair-bond with someone instead of having as many different sexual partners as possible?

Society has a vested interest in creating stable sexual relationships-- it's better for the children of that relationship, and there is less drama over competition for the most desirable mates. Plus, changing partners frequently is exhausting to friends and family who are forced into creating a relationship with your mate; give your children a new stepmom every year and at some point they will stop taking any interest in your latest partner. Unfortunately, when men choose a partner based solely on looks there is less chance for a long term relationship; if you only go for 22 year olds, what happens when your 22 year old girlfriend turns 30? If you don't share any interests it's more likely you will tire of her quickly when her looks are no longer as exciting to you. So when I label (older) men shallow because they only find women under 30 sexually attractive, I'm saying that only responding to surface beauty without considering any other factors is thoughtless behavior, giving into biological urges without considering the consequences.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:36 AM on August 15, 2010


You pair-bond with someone instead of having as many different sexual partners as possible?

Actually, there is an evolutionary basis for pair bonding, even by men (and certainly by women). There is also a countervailing urge to have lots of sex partners, but being in a committed, monogamous couple pretty straightforwardly increases fitness.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:40 AM on August 15, 2010


Is it brainwashing when:

You learn not to wet the bed at night?


Hell yeah, it's a lifestyle choice!
posted by nomadicink at 9:38 AM on August 15, 2010


I'm a woman under 30 and I like to fuck women over 30. Where do I fit into this theory?

Perhaps I have evolved beyond the reaches of evo-psych.
posted by philotes at 11:19 AM on August 15, 2010 [2 favorites]


Here's that Barney Frank dancing you asked for.
posted by mccarty.tim at 11:25 AM on August 15, 2010 [1 favorite]


Ugh. As much as I think chinabound's detour into theories of violence was wrongheaded (I won't even get into sit-com same-dress observations), there is an appalling amount of thinly-veiled ageism in this thread in response. I'm honestly not fond of the "MeFi doesn't do well" claims (despite my half-joking comment earlier) because I think it gets terribly overused, but what I mean by that claim is that people who know better toss out the standards they would readily apply to other topics because they'll bend any argument in service of a position they're emotionally attached to. This appears to be one of those topics.

There seems to be an implicit assumption here that young = not "of substance", which is pretty offensive on its own. If that's not the case, then same-age compatibility basically rests on shared cultural experiences, which are about as shallow as anything else suggested here. I've dated younger and I've dated older, and the fact that someone doesn't remember that tv show I grew up with, or does remember Vietnam (I do not), doesn't count for a hill of beans to me, nor does it have any bearing on the likelihood of my relationship succeeding, at least by any metric that matters to me. If that matters to you, then ok that's a different story, but that's not exactly "deep".

This skips lightly around the fact that mate selection, according to the research, continues to be a game dominated by physical attraction, no matter what people like to say. In that way, I think dating site data is much more revealing than any "club scene". And every time someone selects a cut-off based on height, or on income, or weight, they open themselves up to the same criticisms -- that if it's the only thing that matters, it's ridiculously restrictive and shallow. I agree. Of course it's not the only thing. It's just the start. There's a good word for someone who fits with you in every way that you are not attracted to: "friend" (although there are some credible theories that we make friends with people we find attractive -- including physically attractive -- too).

Understanding that an anecdote is not the singular form of data, I will note that a person close to us has recently left his much-younger "woman of substance" (sharp as a razor, accomplished, ambitious, very pretty, and formerly utterly devoted to him) for a same-age... well, "safe" bet (I'm going to be honest here: dumb as a bag of hammers, remarkably unaccomplished, and homely). I know him middling-well, and can only explain this in terms of him feeling threatened by his former wife (he himself is very accomplished, but there are some insecurities that run deep, I think). There are plenty of women "of substance" at every age, and plenty of people just taking up air, too. It's reasonable to think that substance, if correlated (even loosely) with experience, also correlates with age, but you certainly can't judge based on one attribute, and the willingness to do so here is telling.

For that matter, by the reasoning I read here, young women should be *delighted* to date some moldering fogeys; to wish to do so otherwise would be shallow. They have *substance*!

Hogwash.

As for "what happens when that 22 year old turns 30", again there seems to be an obvious reluctance to apply some fairly easy logic here. There's a big difference between single person A, who as a starting point is looking for what attracts him or her, and attached person B, who has 8 years of shared experiences with his or her partner. The assumption that the latter would treat the situation identically to the former is a little off. You're essentially claiming that anyone who has any physical preferences must treat them as equal or more important than shared history. I don't know anyone who does that. Do you?

People make their semi-arbitrary cutoffs as the starting point for finding someone who fits the bill in the other ways that matter. I think it's shameful that guys will occasionally confess to me in whispered tones, that the woman I've suggested for them won't do, because they prefer someone thinner, or someone younger. You prefer what you prefer. You can find a young, thin, dynamo of an individual, and you can find a safe, unambitious, older lump of a partner, too (of either sex). As usual, the objections are far more telling than the (dating) behaviour they're calling out.

And that's about all I'm willing to throw into this particular hole of a thread.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 1:17 PM on August 15, 2010 [3 favorites]


ad homonym attacks

This is the best thing of any kind ever. chinabound wins by accident!
posted by nicwolff at 8:14 PM on August 15, 2010 [5 favorites]


I could happily live the rest of my life without having another man explain to me that he's biologically programmed to seek out the youngest possible girl and have sex with her (or them, really, because that's also biologically programmed).

I would also prefer to never again see women characterized as desperate harpies who rip each other apart to win the (ULTIMATE!!!!!!) prize of a man's attention.

But then, it wouldn't be the internet without creepy rationalizations of misogyny.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 8:57 PM on August 15, 2010 [8 favorites]


I could happily live the rest of my life without having another man explain to me that he's biologically programmed to seek out the youngest possible girl and have sex with her (or them, really, because that's also biologically programmed).

Pretenses to moral high ground. Pathetic excuses. You can have both or none, your choice.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 11:42 AM on August 16, 2010


ie: I find not assigning blame for personal choices does wonders for not hearing every variant of "it's not my fault". You might want to give it a shot.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 11:43 AM on August 16, 2010


Durn, what you're not understanding is that, in my experience here in the Upper Midwest of the USA, these comments from men about 'biological programming and attraction' don't have to

(a) be solicited
(b) be relevant to the previous conversation
(c) require an extant conversation in the first place.

Narrative Priorities may not have to take a 'moral high ground' or 'offer blame for personal choices' or say anything in the first place. There are a number of men who seem to need to share their beliefs about 'biological truth' with women just because--relatives, platonic friends, co-workers, even strangers. I've encountered many men who have important thoughts on evolutionary psychology as well as the apparent need to interrupt whatever I'm doing in order to teach me about it. They get mighty confused when I lack the patience to humor yet another lecture about thoughts they have thunk, and ask them which edition of 'Descent of Man' they're referencing when they mention Darwin and sexual selection (it matters), or which of his private papers or other works they mean if they don't mean that (perhaps his writing on facial expressions? letters to Lyell? Huxley? his journals?), or if they have a counter to Lloyd's challenge w/r/t Cosmides and Tooby's landmark paper on decision-making, and the C&T paper is The Paper lauded as the first proof that evolutionary psychology (as it exists today--not that evolution didn't/couldn't affect human neurological development) is a valid field. Sometimes they don't seem to know who Cosmides and Tooby are, and that just means they couldn't be arsed to read one entire Wikipedia article. Really, I feel like if a strange man wants to educate me, he could at least do that.

IRL, I don't go around dropping my personal interest in hypothesis development over time, how much of Kuhn's Structure still holds up, or the effect of metaphor in shaping active scientific investigation into chit-chat. I genuinely don't, because why get into that over a good beer? We have other pressing topics we could be covering, including the weather, beer, the upcoming hockey season, beer, poorly designed local roadways, whether it's possible glam rock will experience a revival, beer, why this summer's fashion seems to consist of anything I bought at The Buckle in 2002, or beer. But IRL, amateur evolutionary psychologists--especially men--are pretty bent on introducing and pursuing their pet topic. And if you haven't experienced this kind of "helpfully educational" intrusion over and over again, and had a nice glass of Poolside ruined by the pontificating evo-psych guy who corners you, then you may be missing the context at least one woman on this thread is coming from. It's an absolute crime to spoil a mug of Bell's.

And hot tip, evolutionary psychologists: if you want to impress a woman with your evolutionary psych knowledge, make sure she's on the side of 25 you think she is. Not that an under-25 woman would necessarily find such behavior charming, believe me, just that then you have less back-pedaling to do when she reveals her birth year. Saves time.
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 2:19 PM on August 16, 2010 [1 favorite]


Context noted, Uniformitarianism Now!

As I alluded to upthread, I tend to get confessions rather than abstruse rationalizations, so my understanding has been that there's been a culture of blame around (particularly, but not only) men's preferences that lead to these sorts of defensive justifications. What some of these men don't realize is that they have no explaining to do. It might be a societal problem if "men" prefer one thing (which they definitely uniformly do not), but it's nobody's business what a given individual prefers. He or she has no explaining to do.

From your post I think we're in agreement that they should stop trying.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 3:04 PM on August 16, 2010 [2 favorites]


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