I respectfully disagree. October 14, 2010 11:18 AM Subscribe
Excessive Moderation?
Sure some of the links had an agenda, and I certainly didn't agree with them all, but that was one hell of a post. Did it really need to be killed?
Sure some of the links had an agenda, and I certainly didn't agree with them all, but that was one hell of a post. Did it really need to be killed?
Yes. It was an impressive piece of work but not right for MetaFilter. I say, with tenderness and goodwill, GYOB.
posted by dirtdirt at 11:23 AM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by dirtdirt at 11:23 AM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
It was a straight-up blog post, but if it was posted on a blog, would anyone have posted it here?
posted by smackfu at 11:24 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by smackfu at 11:24 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm sure jessamyn and josh will chime in, but this post had several problems. It's a very long post, and would take a reader hours to really check out each and every of the 78(!!!) linked articles. This encourages people to NOT read anything and merely post their knee jerk reactions based on the excerpts. It contains loads of excerpts, so much that I don't think any of it was actually written by the original poster (it's hard to tell, which makes it all the more confusing). Finally, it's about a real hot button issue, and it's like throwing ten barrels of gas on a fire to bombard everyone with dozens of articles about the same subject (and one side of it) so naturally people came out of the gate fighting about it.
I love the encyclopedic posts when it's about a genre of music, or history of cartoons, or something where more information makes for a better post, but this felt like someone dumping one op-ed on top of another on top of another and so on to ram a point through and frankly, I think it might be time to consider character limits on posting since that was a ginormous post (it was over 2400 words!!!).
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:24 AM on October 14, 2010 [21 favorites]
I love the encyclopedic posts when it's about a genre of music, or history of cartoons, or something where more information makes for a better post, but this felt like someone dumping one op-ed on top of another on top of another and so on to ram a point through and frankly, I think it might be time to consider character limits on posting since that was a ginormous post (it was over 2400 words!!!).
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:24 AM on October 14, 2010 [21 favorites]
Well, I guess we'll never know. But my $ is riding on the inevitability of it ending up in MeTa one way or another. Better it take the fast track than the long and fighty.
posted by iamkimiam at 11:24 AM on October 14, 2010
posted by iamkimiam at 11:24 AM on October 14, 2010
I hated that post on general principle. It was stuffed like foie gras with needless links and writing that I had no time to completely or even halfway read. Yet it was written, which means some of you have nothing better to do than surf the web all day, while eating bonbons and drinking wine that isn't from a box and that's who this post was lovingly written to and whoever you people are I want you to know that your day of reckoning is coming and once the revolution is over you'll be using nothing but dial-up, mark my words.
posted by nomadicink at 11:25 AM on October 14, 2010 [12 favorites]
posted by nomadicink at 11:25 AM on October 14, 2010 [12 favorites]
and frankly, I think it might be time to consider character limits on posting since that was a ginormous post (it was over 2400 words!!!).
Noooooooooo!
posted by zarq at 11:25 AM on October 14, 2010 [8 favorites]
Noooooooooo!
posted by zarq at 11:25 AM on October 14, 2010 [8 favorites]
I'm using too many exclamation points these days.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:26 AM on October 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:26 AM on October 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
We have been talking about this all morning.
A 2500 word post with, let's be fair, a lot of agenda-driven links and pullquotes from those links that seemed intended to drive a point home, presented as a big 78-link link dump with a fighty above the fold quotation that wasn't marked as a quotation, the fighting, flagging and emailing us began immediately and we made a judgment call which was basically that doing a shitton of work on your post doesn't absolve it of still needing to be a good post for MetaFilter.
We felt bad because we know that kliuless put a lot of work into it, but that was way over the line into GYOB territory and didn't even cohere as a post as much as "Here is a list of links about everything I have been reading related to America and economics lately." There is a small coterie of people who really like that sort of post, I know, but we felt it was over the line.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:28 AM on October 14, 2010 [7 favorites]
A 2500 word post with, let's be fair, a lot of agenda-driven links and pullquotes from those links that seemed intended to drive a point home, presented as a big 78-link link dump with a fighty above the fold quotation that wasn't marked as a quotation, the fighting, flagging and emailing us began immediately and we made a judgment call which was basically that doing a shitton of work on your post doesn't absolve it of still needing to be a good post for MetaFilter.
We felt bad because we know that kliuless put a lot of work into it, but that was way over the line into GYOB territory and didn't even cohere as a post as much as "Here is a list of links about everything I have been reading related to America and economics lately." There is a small coterie of people who really like that sort of post, I know, but we felt it was over the line.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:28 AM on October 14, 2010 [7 favorites]
It was a fine post, and valkyryn ruined it by throwing a belligerent temper tantrum.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:28 AM on October 14, 2010 [9 favorites]
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:28 AM on October 14, 2010 [9 favorites]
. It was stuffed like foie gras with needless links and writing that I had no time to completely or even halfway read.
Hey! You stole my metaphor! I too thought the post was like foie gras, except I was the goose.
posted by GuyZero at 11:30 AM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
Hey! You stole my metaphor! I too thought the post was like foie gras, except I was the goose.
posted by GuyZero at 11:30 AM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
It was a belligerent temper tantrum, and valkyryn ruined it by throwing a fine reply.
posted by Etrigan at 11:31 AM on October 14, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 11:31 AM on October 14, 2010 [7 favorites]
I was going to flag it as editorializing. But when I saw how much work it represented - and how much the early commenters seemed to like it - I figured what the hell.
In any case, I have no quibble with the mods' judgment here.
posted by Joe Beese at 11:31 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
In any case, I have no quibble with the mods' judgment here.
posted by Joe Beese at 11:31 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
The "Excess" wasn't in the moderation
posted by edgeways at 11:32 AM on October 14, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by edgeways at 11:32 AM on October 14, 2010 [5 favorites]
Trolling has a new standard.
Welcome to the 21st century!
posted by blue_beetle at 11:36 AM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
Welcome to the 21st century!
posted by blue_beetle at 11:36 AM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
But my $ is riding on the inevitability of it ending up in MeTa one way or another.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I was feeling about it. If anything I'm a little surprised it didn't happen faster, not that that's a complaint precisely. With the right conditions for a post it gets to feeling like there's no approach that won't likely lead to a metatalk post. So it goes.
But that cuts to the heart of this case: there wasn't really any good options with the post. It's too big, too much, without any clear organizing principle in the links to lead people to some common point of reference, since there's a ton of links and pullquotes. So while some of the commenters may have read some of the links, even they won't likely have read the same links.
Which, like Matt said, isn't necessarily a problem if the subject is the history and evolution of Drum & Bass music, or modern photographers, or something that's similarly more entertainment than anything; everybody can dick their wick where they like, and it's unlikely to lead to any acrimony.
But with a fight-starter of a topic, the no-common-ground effect of the massive linkdump means that folks who are saying anything in the thread are more likely going to be dumping My Opinion On This (Sub-)Topic than substantively discussing the content of the post. That's a lot more problematic.
It's a big roundup of links. Like I said in the deletion reason, I appreciate that kliuless probably spent a bunch of time on it, but we can't avoid deleting things just because they're big. Likewise, someone mentioned via email being frustrated at the deletion only several hours had passed and several dozen comments had been made, and while I totally get that we can't just give a pass to things posted at four in the morning to avoid making people feel put out.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:39 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that's pretty much how I was feeling about it. If anything I'm a little surprised it didn't happen faster, not that that's a complaint precisely. With the right conditions for a post it gets to feeling like there's no approach that won't likely lead to a metatalk post. So it goes.
But that cuts to the heart of this case: there wasn't really any good options with the post. It's too big, too much, without any clear organizing principle in the links to lead people to some common point of reference, since there's a ton of links and pullquotes. So while some of the commenters may have read some of the links, even they won't likely have read the same links.
Which, like Matt said, isn't necessarily a problem if the subject is the history and evolution of Drum & Bass music, or modern photographers, or something that's similarly more entertainment than anything; everybody can dick their wick where they like, and it's unlikely to lead to any acrimony.
But with a fight-starter of a topic, the no-common-ground effect of the massive linkdump means that folks who are saying anything in the thread are more likely going to be dumping My Opinion On This (Sub-)Topic than substantively discussing the content of the post. That's a lot more problematic.
It's a big roundup of links. Like I said in the deletion reason, I appreciate that kliuless probably spent a bunch of time on it, but we can't avoid deleting things just because they're big. Likewise, someone mentioned via email being frustrated at the deletion only several hours had passed and several dozen comments had been made, and while I totally get that we can't just give a pass to things posted at four in the morning to avoid making people feel put out.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:39 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
It was a belligerent temper tantrum, and valkyryn ruined it by throwing a fine reply.
This is not a "fine reply", it is poisoning the well: "I'm sorry I got pulled in by this flame bait in the first place. Y'all enjoy your two-minutes hate." He then comes back a few comments after promising to leave so he can keep stirring the pot. Valkyryn is solely responsible for that thread being fighty.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:39 AM on October 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
This is not a "fine reply", it is poisoning the well: "I'm sorry I got pulled in by this flame bait in the first place. Y'all enjoy your two-minutes hate." He then comes back a few comments after promising to leave so he can keep stirring the pot. Valkyryn is solely responsible for that thread being fighty.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:39 AM on October 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
To be fair, I flagged it before even reading the comments.
posted by smackfu at 11:40 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by smackfu at 11:40 AM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't care that he put a lot of work into it. If you're going to put a lot of work into something, then you sort of owe it to yourself to make sure it is useful, effective, or welcome, or entertains someone other than yourself.
posted by hermitosis at 11:41 AM on October 14, 2010 [8 favorites]
posted by hermitosis at 11:41 AM on October 14, 2010 [8 favorites]
Huh, "dick their wick"? Really, fingers?
To be fair, I flagged it before even reading the comments.
Yeah, and to be clear our concern was with the post in its own right; the deletion wasn't premised on the specific content of the comments.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:43 AM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
To be fair, I flagged it before even reading the comments.
Yeah, and to be clear our concern was with the post in its own right; the deletion wasn't premised on the specific content of the comments.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:43 AM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
everybody can dick their wick where they like
Whosajiggawha?
posted by Gator at 11:45 AM on October 14, 2010
Whosajiggawha?
posted by Gator at 11:45 AM on October 14, 2010
Valkyryn is solely responsible for that thread being fighty.
And valkyryn should knock that off, generally. However, the post itself was really a "fuck the rich" sort of thing that could really only not be seen to be fighty in a place where every single person was like "Yeah. fuck em!"
We see this with posts about, for example, police brutality, religious people doing wacky things, people abusing women terribly in other countries, animal abuse. As soon as there's not a unanimous co-hating happening, there's actually a big fight.
Disclaimer: I blame the rich for a lot of things too. But there is, or should be, a difference between what I feel in my heart of hearts and what makes sense in a large international community full of diverse opinions where one of my goals is not to fight with people all day.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:45 AM on October 14, 2010 [12 favorites]
And valkyryn should knock that off, generally. However, the post itself was really a "fuck the rich" sort of thing that could really only not be seen to be fighty in a place where every single person was like "Yeah. fuck em!"
We see this with posts about, for example, police brutality, religious people doing wacky things, people abusing women terribly in other countries, animal abuse. As soon as there's not a unanimous co-hating happening, there's actually a big fight.
Disclaimer: I blame the rich for a lot of things too. But there is, or should be, a difference between what I feel in my heart of hearts and what makes sense in a large international community full of diverse opinions where one of my goals is not to fight with people all day.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:45 AM on October 14, 2010 [12 favorites]
I was pretty confused by the post's use of Onion articles and clips to support itself, as well as the occasional link to a thing that was the opposite of what the link said it was.
posted by shakespeherian at 11:46 AM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 11:46 AM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
Metafilter: everybody can dick their wick where they like, and it's unlikely to lead to any acrimony
posted by Cogito at 11:58 AM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Cogito at 11:58 AM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
kliuless has done many posts like this and in my experience they don't really devolve into flame-filled threads. They tend to go better than most other people's political posts, maybe because there's just so much in the links — I don't know.
I wish this hadn't been deleted, if only because feeling guilty when I mean to go back and read through all the links in a kliuless post and then I never do is totally part of my routine now and I'm not sure what to do without it.
posted by enn at 12:00 PM on October 14, 2010
I wish this hadn't been deleted, if only because feeling guilty when I mean to go back and read through all the links in a kliuless post and then I never do is totally part of my routine now and I'm not sure what to do without it.
posted by enn at 12:00 PM on October 14, 2010
If this were a country club, we'd just play a round of golf to settle all... this... once and for all.
And the soundtrack would be Kenny Loggins' "I'm Alright"
posted by not_on_display at 12:01 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
And the soundtrack would be Kenny Loggins' "I'm Alright"
posted by not_on_display at 12:01 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
It was a belligerent temper tantrum, and valkyryn ruined it by throwing a fine reply.
I think valkyryn is a smart guy and it's a shame he gets shouted down so quickly as if he isn't aware/doesn't give a shit about things like inequality. I say that as a bleeding-heart librul.
posted by windbox at 12:01 PM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
I think valkyryn is a smart guy and it's a shame he gets shouted down so quickly as if he isn't aware/doesn't give a shit about things like inequality. I say that as a bleeding-heart librul.
posted by windbox at 12:01 PM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
Excessive Moderation?
Get a brain, oxymoran
posted by found missing at 12:06 PM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
Get a brain, oxymoran
posted by found missing at 12:06 PM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
If this were a country club, we'd just play a round of golf to settle all... this... once and for all.
*removes beautiful gloves, handmade from the hide of sparkly unicorns and exquisitely slaps them against a pampered and well muscled thigh*
"My good man, this is Metafilter, we settle such things with a rousing game of Scrabble! Have you the steel to back your ill chosen words or shall we test your mettle on battlefield?!"
posted by nomadicink at 12:07 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
*removes beautiful gloves, handmade from the hide of sparkly unicorns and exquisitely slaps them against a pampered and well muscled thigh*
"My good man, this is Metafilter, we settle such things with a rousing game of Scrabble! Have you the steel to back your ill chosen words or shall we test your mettle on battlefield?!"
posted by nomadicink at 12:07 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
I was wondering when this was going to show up.
I saw the fpp this morning, with barely half a cup of coffee in me. I scrolled down, and then scrolled some more, and then more. And then more. And then I figured that Faze would make a comment that would make everyone get all hoppitamoppita and no one would actually talk about the linked articles.
No one would talk about the linked articles even if Faze hadn't said anything, though, or valkyryn either. It was full of excerpts that will make people lose their shit.
posted by rtha at 12:08 PM on October 14, 2010
I saw the fpp this morning, with barely half a cup of coffee in me. I scrolled down, and then scrolled some more, and then more. And then more. And then I figured that Faze would make a comment that would make everyone get all hoppitamoppita and no one would actually talk about the linked articles.
No one would talk about the linked articles even if Faze hadn't said anything, though, or valkyryn either. It was full of excerpts that will make people lose their shit.
posted by rtha at 12:08 PM on October 14, 2010
Wow, that thing was a bomb waiting to go off. Plus its not "best of the web" its I think this is true and here are the links to prove it.
Deletion approved.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:09 PM on October 14, 2010
Deletion approved.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:09 PM on October 14, 2010
I'm not one to get all bent out of shape about a post being deleted, but I did feel like the tone in this one was just about to get a lot better, with people moving on to more substantive discussion and fewer sound bite exchanges. I think it should have lived longer in the hopes that the discussion might turn itself around.
*Insert dick-wicking joke here*
posted by Aizkolari at 12:18 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
*Insert dick-wicking joke here*
posted by Aizkolari at 12:18 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
tl;dr.
posted by ericb at 12:21 PM on October 14, 2010 [8 favorites]
posted by ericb at 12:21 PM on October 14, 2010 [8 favorites]
I really like kliuless and his contributions to Metafilter. He definitely gives more than he takes. I'm envious of how well read he is and his baroque, clumpy posts. He most often cohere to a theme but every now and then wander into no-organization land. I think the mods have two issues, the style and the content where the latter is definitely influencing the former. If he'd posted a megathread about some obscure media phenomena this would pass because it'd be nice, apolitical, and everyone's trivia would increase. But because he's describing class warfare, the "Metafilter does not do these threads well" card is pulled. We need to be able to talk about the systematic gang bang of the working class and the unprecedented concentration of wealth by a fraction of the population without getting worked up into hysterics.
posted by bodywithoutorgans at 12:26 PM on October 14, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by bodywithoutorgans at 12:26 PM on October 14, 2010 [7 favorites]
Not calling it a gang bang would help with that. Just saying...
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:29 PM on October 14, 2010 [13 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:29 PM on October 14, 2010 [13 favorites]
I suppose if the minority are fucking the majority, you're correct.
posted by bodywithoutorgans at 12:34 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by bodywithoutorgans at 12:34 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Valkyryn is solely responsible for that thread being fighty.
No, that thread is solely responsible for that thread being fighty. That thread could be named Fighty Jack McFighty and win the All-England Fighty Championship three years running, and it would still be up for more fightyness. But you agree with it, so valkyryn is the big asshole who dared to stand up to The Forces Of Right.
posted by Etrigan at 12:34 PM on October 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
No, that thread is solely responsible for that thread being fighty. That thread could be named Fighty Jack McFighty and win the All-England Fighty Championship three years running, and it would still be up for more fightyness. But you agree with it, so valkyryn is the big asshole who dared to stand up to The Forces Of Right.
posted by Etrigan at 12:34 PM on October 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
We need to be able to talk about the systematic gang bang of the working class and the unprecedented concentration of wealth by a fraction of the population without getting worked up into hysterics.
The problem is that that is something worth getting worked up into hysterics about.
Not calling it a gang bang would help with that.
How about 'unicorn smoothie'?
posted by nomadicink at 12:35 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
The problem is that that is something worth getting worked up into hysterics about.
Not calling it a gang bang would help with that.
How about 'unicorn smoothie'?
posted by nomadicink at 12:35 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
No, that thread is solely responsible for that thread being fighty.
Specifically, anybody who participates in a fight is responsible for a thread being fighty.
posted by Gator at 12:36 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Specifically, anybody who participates in a fight is responsible for a thread being fighty.
posted by Gator at 12:36 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
The unicorn smoothie is one of my patented sexual techniques.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:37 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by shakespeherian at 12:37 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's big. That doesn't make it great. It has a lot of links, but it is a manifesto, not a Mefi post.
I support the deletion.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:42 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
I support the deletion.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:42 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
We need to be able to talk about the systematic gang bang of the working class and the unprecedented concentration of wealth by a fraction of the population without getting worked up into hysterics.
I agree with the part of your post that implies that the long-term solution to fighty threads without meaningful discourse isn't closing all fighty threads and precluding meaningful discourse.
However, I disagree with the part of your post that seems to distill to "Everyone needs to share my viewpoint on class struggle, so that fighty dissent never becomes a problem."
posted by Phyltre at 12:44 PM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
I agree with the part of your post that implies that the long-term solution to fighty threads without meaningful discourse isn't closing all fighty threads and precluding meaningful discourse.
However, I disagree with the part of your post that seems to distill to "Everyone needs to share my viewpoint on class struggle, so that fighty dissent never becomes a problem."
posted by Phyltre at 12:44 PM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
That post was only shut down because of its radical liberal agenda. There's too many conservative in this echo chamber for a post like that to fly without offending nearly everybody.
Wait, I think I got something wrong here.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:48 PM on October 14, 2010
Wait, I think I got something wrong here.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:48 PM on October 14, 2010
The problem is that that is something worth getting worked up into hysterics about.
The problem is that everyone has an issue, or many, they feel is worth getting worked into hysterics about. And if people make fighty posts about those topics, even if they are on something we all collectively decide is The Side of Good, it's generally not a great post for MetaFilter. Lots of lackluster posts along these lines stay because they don't attract a lot of attention or don't go badly. That doesn't detact from the point that they're not great posts.
People are encouraged to get their own blogs. They prefer to post here because, among other things, they say this site has more interesting discussions, a less assholish userbase, a more varied approach to a lot of complicated topics, that sort of thing. And the reason this site is like this is because it's not just a platform for everyone hollering at each other about how awful THESE people are or how perfect THOSE people are.
It reduces a lot of topics to "it's complicated" at some level, but then people can untangle them in a nuanced way and not just [as is going on in the animal rights thread] be nasty and call each other trolls because some people disagree on a topic that other people feel NO ONE can have a disagreeing opinion on and still be human. As we're ramping up to another US election year [though not a presidential one] I think it's worth reminding people that one of the reaons they enjoy this site is because it's not like all the other shouty-foregone-conclusion sites out there.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:48 PM on October 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
The problem is that everyone has an issue, or many, they feel is worth getting worked into hysterics about. And if people make fighty posts about those topics, even if they are on something we all collectively decide is The Side of Good, it's generally not a great post for MetaFilter. Lots of lackluster posts along these lines stay because they don't attract a lot of attention or don't go badly. That doesn't detact from the point that they're not great posts.
People are encouraged to get their own blogs. They prefer to post here because, among other things, they say this site has more interesting discussions, a less assholish userbase, a more varied approach to a lot of complicated topics, that sort of thing. And the reason this site is like this is because it's not just a platform for everyone hollering at each other about how awful THESE people are or how perfect THOSE people are.
It reduces a lot of topics to "it's complicated" at some level, but then people can untangle them in a nuanced way and not just [as is going on in the animal rights thread] be nasty and call each other trolls because some people disagree on a topic that other people feel NO ONE can have a disagreeing opinion on and still be human. As we're ramping up to another US election year [though not a presidential one] I think it's worth reminding people that one of the reaons they enjoy this site is because it's not like all the other shouty-foregone-conclusion sites out there.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:48 PM on October 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
I personally tend to agree with the agenda of the FPP, but I still thought it was way too long and the links were confusing. I think it was a warranted deletion.
posted by freecellwizard at 1:04 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by freecellwizard at 1:04 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
The problem with a post that large is that there is no concrete focus for discussion. Instead, discussion tends to drift towards the lowest common denominator between the links. Hence the devolution into a superficial argument about the morality of taxation.
Sometimes large, wide-ranging posts are okay because they're about music or art or other topics that are mainly a matter of taste and about which just about everyone can agree to disagree about politely. But this post was, at its core, about a controversial topic. I think it could have worked better if it had been based around a much tighter core of cohesive, concrete, fact-oriented links.
posted by jedicus at 1:12 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Sometimes large, wide-ranging posts are okay because they're about music or art or other topics that are mainly a matter of taste and about which just about everyone can agree to disagree about politely. But this post was, at its core, about a controversial topic. I think it could have worked better if it had been based around a much tighter core of cohesive, concrete, fact-oriented links.
posted by jedicus at 1:12 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you enact character limits for posts, I will make the greatest web site ever and give it a URL so deliciously long that no one will ever be able to make an FPP about it (but everyone will want to).
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 1:18 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 1:18 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
I agree with jessamyn that we shouldn't use "gang bang" in this context - it someone manages to trivialize both gang bangs and class oppression.
posted by muddgirl at 1:20 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 1:20 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
People are encouraged to get their own blogs. They prefer to post here because
MetaFilter guarantees lots of actual readers and free moderation. If they posted the same thing to their own blog, they would get five readers and three comments, two of which would be spam robot comments in Chinese.
It's like writing graffiti (or so I imagine; kids these days!): you don't write graffiti on an alley wall facing another alley wall where no one will see it, you write it on a building on a busy downtown street or on a train or bridge where a million people will see it.
posted by pracowity at 1:23 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
MetaFilter guarantees lots of actual readers and free moderation. If they posted the same thing to their own blog, they would get five readers and three comments, two of which would be spam robot comments in Chinese.
It's like writing graffiti (or so I imagine; kids these days!): you don't write graffiti on an alley wall facing another alley wall where no one will see it, you write it on a building on a busy downtown street or on a train or bridge where a million people will see it.
posted by pracowity at 1:23 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
It was a GYOB post. Sorry. I agree with the vast majority of points that kliuless was making, but it was too much to post without some sort of required delay before anyone could post, because the earliest posts on something with 78 big-ass links will be from folks who didn't read it and already just agree or disagree.
I would also like to congratulate whomever is running the Faze sockpuppet on keeping the crazy fresh after all these years. I mean, you'd think that everyone around here would know not to respond to him when he's parodying the extreme fuck-you-got-mine mentality (or when he's off on his burlesque of vegetarianism, or when he's slagging any band you happen to like because he hates them all), but he keeps matching his game to the posts and, man, it's worth some respect to see how consistent he is in provoking everyone. On some level, though this'd be deep game and (all due respect) I just don't think BP has it in him, he's the anti-Blazecock in so many ways that I tend to just shake my head and think, BP, won't you ever get sick of trotting that inflammatory craziness out?
posted by klangklangston at 1:25 PM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
I would also like to congratulate whomever is running the Faze sockpuppet on keeping the crazy fresh after all these years. I mean, you'd think that everyone around here would know not to respond to him when he's parodying the extreme fuck-you-got-mine mentality (or when he's off on his burlesque of vegetarianism, or when he's slagging any band you happen to like because he hates them all), but he keeps matching his game to the posts and, man, it's worth some respect to see how consistent he is in provoking everyone. On some level, though this'd be deep game and (all due respect) I just don't think BP has it in him, he's the anti-Blazecock in so many ways that I tend to just shake my head and think, BP, won't you ever get sick of trotting that inflammatory craziness out?
posted by klangklangston at 1:25 PM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
> Excessive Moderation?
No, and kliuless needs to learn how to make decent MeFi posts. I'm pissed off about the rich and the government and all that shit too, but come on. That post was terrible.
posted by languagehat at 1:29 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
No, and kliuless needs to learn how to make decent MeFi posts. I'm pissed off about the rich and the government and all that shit too, but come on. That post was terrible.
posted by languagehat at 1:29 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
The loon contingent came out in force—enough new names that I'm curious about their sign-up dates and locations.
It would be interesting to run some lexical analysis tools. I wonder of we have users who seem to have identifiable writing and usage rates. It wouldn't surprise me at all if MeFi is a primo AstroTurf target.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:31 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
It would be interesting to run some lexical analysis tools. I wonder of we have users who seem to have identifiable writing and usage rates. It wouldn't surprise me at all if MeFi is a primo AstroTurf target.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:31 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
"The noble institution of the gang bang shall not be impugned!
The Sensational Alex Harvey Tribute Band agrees!
And so do Tim and Eric!
posted by klangklangston at 1:31 PM on October 14, 2010
The Sensational Alex Harvey Tribute Band agrees!
And so do Tim and Eric!
posted by klangklangston at 1:31 PM on October 14, 2010
mathowie: "I love the encyclopedic posts when it's about a genre of music, or history of cartoons, or something where more information makes for a better post, but this felt like someone dumping one op-ed on top of another on top of another and so on to ram a point through and frankly, I think it might be time to consider character limits on posting since that was a ginormous post (it was over 2400 words!!!)."
Please don't. I can't tell if you're seriously thinking about a change or just musing, but from this reader's perspective imposing more limits on what people can post would be a bad thing. The variety and freedom here are a big part of what makes your website so appealing.
On the other hand, I can see why this FPP was deleted. kliuless is a really smart person with a lot of interesting things to say through shared links, but he (or she) needs to learn to focus. A smaller number of closely related links would work much better.
posted by Kevin Street at 1:33 PM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
Please don't. I can't tell if you're seriously thinking about a change or just musing, but from this reader's perspective imposing more limits on what people can post would be a bad thing. The variety and freedom here are a big part of what makes your website so appealing.
On the other hand, I can see why this FPP was deleted. kliuless is a really smart person with a lot of interesting things to say through shared links, but he (or she) needs to learn to focus. A smaller number of closely related links would work much better.
posted by Kevin Street at 1:33 PM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
Wow, that was quite a post, and it was definitely editorial. I can't see how one could think it a good Metafilter post, even though there are many parts of the headlines with which I agreed.
posted by OmieWise at 1:38 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by OmieWise at 1:38 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
…a community full of diverse opinions where one of my goals is not to fight with people all day.
This would be easier if MeFi didn't have a history of being fighty. There are a lot of strongly political threads on the mid-East war, terrorism, and health rights. Been that way for a lot of years—the Bush reign of error pretty much required it.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:39 PM on October 14, 2010
This would be easier if MeFi didn't have a history of being fighty. There are a lot of strongly political threads on the mid-East war, terrorism, and health rights. Been that way for a lot of years—the Bush reign of error pretty much required it.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:39 PM on October 14, 2010
We've had much, much worse (mostly SEO-laden) FPPs get through lately, where the majority of the comments discussed hating the linked article.
Spammy: 1, 2
Bad articles with good talking points: 1, 2 (Less contentious, but it'd be nice if popular/contentious issues could be accompanied by quality FPPs so that the discussion stays on-track. Articles on the Blue have occasionally been removed for this reason in the past.)
I'm sure there's more. I do see the faults with this particular post, but we've let worse slip through in recent weeks.
posted by schmod at 1:39 PM on October 14, 2010
Spammy: 1, 2
Bad articles with good talking points: 1, 2 (Less contentious, but it'd be nice if popular/contentious issues could be accompanied by quality FPPs so that the discussion stays on-track. Articles on the Blue have occasionally been removed for this reason in the past.)
I'm sure there's more. I do see the faults with this particular post, but we've let worse slip through in recent weeks.
posted by schmod at 1:39 PM on October 14, 2010
I would have deleted it for repeatedly conflating income with class and wealth.
posted by John Cohen at 1:39 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by John Cohen at 1:39 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think we can all agree the post would have been a tremendous hit on Plastic.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:40 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by entropicamericana at 1:40 PM on October 14, 2010
As much as I disagree with them, I'm glad the conservatives are participating in threads like that. That said, I support the deletion based on the editorializing of the post itself.
posted by rocket88 at 1:42 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by rocket88 at 1:42 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
we've let worse slip through in recent weeks
So? I think we can all agree that the moderators are humans, not perfectly analytical robots.
posted by muddgirl at 1:47 PM on October 14, 2010
So? I think we can all agree that the moderators are humans, not perfectly analytical robots.
posted by muddgirl at 1:47 PM on October 14, 2010
I can't tell if you're seriously thinking about a change or just musing, but from this reader's perspective imposing more limits on what people can post would be a bad thing.
The only way someone hits that many words is by excessive quoting. Since actually writing that many original words would definitely get deleted as being a blog post.
posted by smackfu at 1:52 PM on October 14, 2010
The only way someone hits that many words is by excessive quoting. Since actually writing that many original words would definitely get deleted as being a blog post.
posted by smackfu at 1:52 PM on October 14, 2010
So? I think we can all agree that the moderators are humans, not perfectly analytical robots.
Oh, wait until the 'Droid tablets start flooding the market, then we'll see, oh yess.....
posted by nomadicink at 1:56 PM on October 14, 2010
Oh, wait until the 'Droid tablets start flooding the market, then we'll see, oh yess.....
posted by nomadicink at 1:56 PM on October 14, 2010
klangklangston: It was a GYOB post.
It was. However, MetaFilter has been evolving, and a lot of single link stuff is looked down on now. "You didn't put enough effort into it" and "It wasn't done well", and all that..
I'm not sure what happened to kliuless' old style, where he'd post a few big links up front, and then follow up over a couple of days with links to related stuff in his comments. That seems like a better format.
posted by Chuckles at 1:58 PM on October 14, 2010
It was. However, MetaFilter has been evolving, and a lot of single link stuff is looked down on now. "You didn't put enough effort into it" and "It wasn't done well", and all that..
I'm not sure what happened to kliuless' old style, where he'd post a few big links up front, and then follow up over a couple of days with links to related stuff in his comments. That seems like a better format.
posted by Chuckles at 1:58 PM on October 14, 2010
The whole post definitely has a strong Christian sexual guilt vibe.
That is what it is meant to have. There is a reason it was seen to be FPP-worthy.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:59 PM on October 14, 2010
That is what it is meant to have. There is a reason it was seen to be FPP-worthy.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:59 PM on October 14, 2010
Additionally there was Not a Single Flag on the netbros post. I agree that sometimes his posts seem sort of ... light and SEO-seeming. That said he's an all around community participant--I see him in AskMe a lot, or have--and I think this counts for a lot. The others, eh, not my style, not flagged to hell so I didn't see them [if there's low flagging on the MeFi side of things cortex usually manages it unless he's away] and really playing the "these posts are worse" game isn't that useful.
This would be easier if MeFi didn't have a history of being fighty.
With all due respect, there are maybe ten or twenty people who I think are responsible for 95% of the fighty in MeFi. People can decide, personally, whether to talk about an post or fight about it. While we ask people to try to keep the tone of their posts relatively free of axe-grindiness, we acknowledge there are hot button topics that get people upset. However, I assert that there is a difference between saying "this topic upsets me and I find it difficult to understand the people who don't agree with my take on it" and "I am now angry because I have read this article and I'm going to take this anger out on other members of the community because I have poor impulse control and/or boundaries and/or don't give a shit about the community guidelines."
There's nothing wrong with being upset or angry about things that are angering or upsetting, but it's a useful life skill to be able to not let that emotion cause you to be an asshole to people who have done nothing but try to talk about things in possibly clumsy ways. If you think people are actively stirring the pot, talk to us about it or come to MeTa. People just seem to like to sneer and jeer in MeFi even though it actively makes the discussion at the time and the site in general, worse.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:59 PM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
This would be easier if MeFi didn't have a history of being fighty.
With all due respect, there are maybe ten or twenty people who I think are responsible for 95% of the fighty in MeFi. People can decide, personally, whether to talk about an post or fight about it. While we ask people to try to keep the tone of their posts relatively free of axe-grindiness, we acknowledge there are hot button topics that get people upset. However, I assert that there is a difference between saying "this topic upsets me and I find it difficult to understand the people who don't agree with my take on it" and "I am now angry because I have read this article and I'm going to take this anger out on other members of the community because I have poor impulse control and/or boundaries and/or don't give a shit about the community guidelines."
There's nothing wrong with being upset or angry about things that are angering or upsetting, but it's a useful life skill to be able to not let that emotion cause you to be an asshole to people who have done nothing but try to talk about things in possibly clumsy ways. If you think people are actively stirring the pot, talk to us about it or come to MeTa. People just seem to like to sneer and jeer in MeFi even though it actively makes the discussion at the time and the site in general, worse.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:59 PM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
MetaFilter has been evolving, and a lot of single link stuff is looked down on now.
I don't think this is an accurate statement. I prefer single-link posts myself, and I know there's a large group of other members who don't feel like the number of links is any barometer of quality.
posted by Bookhouse at 2:00 PM on October 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
I don't think this is an accurate statement. I prefer single-link posts myself, and I know there's a large group of other members who don't feel like the number of links is any barometer of quality.
posted by Bookhouse at 2:00 PM on October 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
schmod, I wasn't a fan of either of your "spammy" links, but that's a mischaracterization. They may have not been the strongest subjects, but both posters are people that wouldn't be spamming. Unless you mean that in some other way.
posted by cjorgensen at 2:02 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by cjorgensen at 2:02 PM on October 14, 2010
MetaFilter has been evolving, and a lot of single link stuff is looked down on now.
I think it's really just mystery meat that isn't appreciated as much as it once was. A well framed single link is fine. You don't need to link to Wikipedia to give context, that's what words are for.
posted by smackfu at 2:04 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think it's really just mystery meat that isn't appreciated as much as it once was. A well framed single link is fine. You don't need to link to Wikipedia to give context, that's what words are for.
posted by smackfu at 2:04 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
Aw man, that was a great post.
posted by chillmost at 2:05 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by chillmost at 2:05 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
For me to poop on.
posted by found missing at 2:06 PM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by found missing at 2:06 PM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
damnit
posted by found missing at 2:06 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by found missing at 2:06 PM on October 14, 2010
Huh, I enjoyed the thread. It didn't seem excessively fighty, certainly not by MeFi standards. Sometimes the best things about these agenda-driven posts is they allow us to measure, by weight, the amount of bullshit in them. I guess there were lots of flags on it, making it a headache for the mods, but I feel like sometimes it's good to thrash things out a bit. And when there's a big thread like this, it generally draws in the crazies and keeps them from other threads a bit.
posted by Eideteker at 2:08 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by Eideteker at 2:08 PM on October 14, 2010
I have a strong preference for "themes" in an FPP. The "meta" part of MetaFilter. Better than single-link posts.
Just don't take it to excess like kluiless did. Focus.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:10 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Just don't take it to excess like kluiless did. Focus.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:10 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yeah, "single link" isn't a problem at all. Poor link is usually more the issue, which is why a single link to a substantive essay is generally gonna be fine whereas as single link to a newswire blurb is generally not gonna last long.
I feel like sometimes it's good to thrash things out a bit
I feel like not so much. This is not gangland, the five families don't need to murder away some bad blood now and then. People refraining from thrashing things out a bit is pretty much the way to go. People who hunger for a thrash can find it elsewhere.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:11 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
I feel like sometimes it's good to thrash things out a bit
I feel like not so much. This is not gangland, the five families don't need to murder away some bad blood now and then. People refraining from thrashing things out a bit is pretty much the way to go. People who hunger for a thrash can find it elsewhere.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:11 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
smackfu, there are lots of really long posts that aren't full of quotes. Here's an example. It's true that they tend to be about non-political subjects, but I think that's more because of the interests of their authors than any inherent limitation within the form. If a poster is skilled enough, they can do a long, link filled FPP on the mortgage crisis or income inequality and not have it become a fight fest. But that level of skill is unfortunately rare.
For a more positive example of what I think kliuless is trying to achieve (or maybe what I hope he or she becomes), look at mutant's posts. They are comparatively short, but very dense with links and real world knowledge. Current events type stuff that really teaches you something without wandering from the chosen subject.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:11 PM on October 14, 2010
For a more positive example of what I think kliuless is trying to achieve (or maybe what I hope he or she becomes), look at mutant's posts. They are comparatively short, but very dense with links and real world knowledge. Current events type stuff that really teaches you something without wandering from the chosen subject.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:11 PM on October 14, 2010
Yeah, this deletion is ridiculous. I'm working on a similar post that I'll have to scrap now. I get the feeling cortex doesn't realize how long it's taken me to add all the HTML – I'm ten pages in, and now I find out I can't post the entire bibliography for my Master's dissertation to the front page of Metafilter?
posted by koeselitz at 2:32 PM on October 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by koeselitz at 2:32 PM on October 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
"I feel like not so much. This is not gangland, the five families don't need to murder away some bad blood now and then. People refraining from thrashing things out a bit is pretty much the way to go. People who hunger for a thrash can find it elsewhere."
Whoa, wait. Who got murdered?
Arguments can get heated. I'd rather a heated debate from time to time than everyone playing nice-nice forever, completely ill-at-ease because they're afraid to rock the boat. Repression just adds tension. But it's possible to get worked up/excited/agitated without being an asshole. People shouldn't be assholes. But I also tend to skip the personal attacks when reading MeFi threads; I just assume they're there and stick to the meat of the discussion. I just assume people are going to get a little het up and I forgive them for it. But I can only really state my opinion on the matter, which is necessarily incomplete; it's just my view from over here. You all have your own views.
posted by Eideteker at 2:35 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Whoa, wait. Who got murdered?
Arguments can get heated. I'd rather a heated debate from time to time than everyone playing nice-nice forever, completely ill-at-ease because they're afraid to rock the boat. Repression just adds tension. But it's possible to get worked up/excited/agitated without being an asshole. People shouldn't be assholes. But I also tend to skip the personal attacks when reading MeFi threads; I just assume they're there and stick to the meat of the discussion. I just assume people are going to get a little het up and I forgive them for it. But I can only really state my opinion on the matter, which is necessarily incomplete; it's just my view from over here. You all have your own views.
posted by Eideteker at 2:35 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Blazecock Pileon: "This is not a "fine reply", it is poisoning the well: "I'm sorry I got pulled in by this flame bait in the first place. Y'all enjoy your two-minutes hate." He then comes back a few comments after promising to leave so he can keep stirring the pot. Valkyryn is solely responsible for that thread being fighty."
Weirdly enough your own reply is a better example of "poisoning the well" than valkyryn's posts.
posted by boo_radley at 2:42 PM on October 14, 2010
Weirdly enough your own reply is a better example of "poisoning the well" than valkyryn's posts.
posted by boo_radley at 2:42 PM on October 14, 2010
Well. Now I don't feel so bad for not liking it... I thought it was just me getting old and... you know... cranky.
posted by OneMonkeysUncle at 2:44 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by OneMonkeysUncle at 2:44 PM on October 14, 2010
smackfu, there are lots of really long posts that aren't full of quotes. Here's an example.
That example seems to be really stretching what MeFi is for. It's a 1600 word blog post / essay filled with links.
posted by smackfu at 2:46 PM on October 14, 2010
That example seems to be really stretching what MeFi is for. It's a 1600 word blog post / essay filled with links.
posted by smackfu at 2:46 PM on October 14, 2010
I'd rather a heated debate from time to time than everyone playing nice-nice forever, completely ill-at-ease because they're afraid to rock the boat.
So would I; the latter has never been our objective and the former, and various stops between, happen on a regular basis. That said, one person's "heated debate" is often another person's "being an asshole", and trying to manage large groups of people with different perspectives and differing thresholds for both what they'll give and what they'll take in an argument has made me fairly disinclined to encouraging any more heated exchanges than already occur naturally on the site.
And the thing is, I find the people who we tend to butt heads with most on that front are specifically the sorts who are more free with their output in arguments than the average joe. They like arguing, they like thrashing things around a bit, and they don't care a whole lot that the majority of their fellow users aren't nearly so into it. So it's kind of a tricky thing: I recognize and respect that someone may want that sort of thing to happen and to be kosher because it's what they personally enjoy, but what they personally enjoy may not be enjoyable at all for a whole lot of other people on the site.
So I have fairly strong anti-thrashing-about feelings at this point, not so much because I can't appreciate the motivation for a heated debate but because it's not as simple as just letting it happen and calling it a good thing when in practice such things are rarely self-contained in a way that leads to only the people who are into that sort of thing having to deal with it. Somewhere between enforced Always Nice-Nice and freewheeling heated arguments exists this realm of substantive civil discourse, and in that middle mode things seem to go far, far better around here than they do at either extreme.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:52 PM on October 14, 2010
So would I; the latter has never been our objective and the former, and various stops between, happen on a regular basis. That said, one person's "heated debate" is often another person's "being an asshole", and trying to manage large groups of people with different perspectives and differing thresholds for both what they'll give and what they'll take in an argument has made me fairly disinclined to encouraging any more heated exchanges than already occur naturally on the site.
And the thing is, I find the people who we tend to butt heads with most on that front are specifically the sorts who are more free with their output in arguments than the average joe. They like arguing, they like thrashing things around a bit, and they don't care a whole lot that the majority of their fellow users aren't nearly so into it. So it's kind of a tricky thing: I recognize and respect that someone may want that sort of thing to happen and to be kosher because it's what they personally enjoy, but what they personally enjoy may not be enjoyable at all for a whole lot of other people on the site.
So I have fairly strong anti-thrashing-about feelings at this point, not so much because I can't appreciate the motivation for a heated debate but because it's not as simple as just letting it happen and calling it a good thing when in practice such things are rarely self-contained in a way that leads to only the people who are into that sort of thing having to deal with it. Somewhere between enforced Always Nice-Nice and freewheeling heated arguments exists this realm of substantive civil discourse, and in that middle mode things seem to go far, far better around here than they do at either extreme.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:52 PM on October 14, 2010
the history and evolution of Drum & Bass music
Holy crap! Please don't include character limits if it reduces posts like that one.
posted by shelleycat at 2:52 PM on October 14, 2010
Holy crap! Please don't include character limits if it reduces posts like that one.
posted by shelleycat at 2:52 PM on October 14, 2010
Weirdly enough your own reply is a better example of "poisoning the well" than valkyryn's posts.
I didn't reply to him. I ignored most of his 15 comments after his response to my comment. If this Metatalk thread didn't exist, though, I would have started one to call out his awful behavior. It was not a great deletion, and it was triggered mostly because Valkyryn's ill-mannered taking over of the thread poisoned any possible discussion of the content of the post.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:57 PM on October 14, 2010
I didn't reply to him. I ignored most of his 15 comments after his response to my comment. If this Metatalk thread didn't exist, though, I would have started one to call out his awful behavior. It was not a great deletion, and it was triggered mostly because Valkyryn's ill-mannered taking over of the thread poisoned any possible discussion of the content of the post.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:57 PM on October 14, 2010
It was not a great deletion, and it was triggered mostly because Valkyryn's ill-mannered taking over of the thread poisoned any possible discussion of the content of the post.
You are welcome to your opinion about the deletion, but if it's based on the plainly debunked notion that I deleted the post because of valkyryn's comments it's not an opinion that's got a lot going for it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:01 PM on October 14, 2010
You are welcome to your opinion about the deletion, but if it's based on the plainly debunked notion that I deleted the post because of valkyryn's comments it's not an opinion that's got a lot going for it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:01 PM on October 14, 2010
cortex: Yeah, and to be clear our concern was with the post in its own right; the deletion wasn't premised on the specific content of the comments.
Blazecock Pileon: It was not a great deletion, and it was triggered mostly because Valkyryn's ill-mannered taking over of the thread poisoned any possible discussion of the content of the post.
Are you calling cortex (and by extension the rest of the mods) liars?
posted by kmz at 3:03 PM on October 14, 2010
Blazecock Pileon: It was not a great deletion, and it was triggered mostly because Valkyryn's ill-mannered taking over of the thread poisoned any possible discussion of the content of the post.
Are you calling cortex (and by extension the rest of the mods) liars?
posted by kmz at 3:03 PM on October 14, 2010
Blazecock Pileon: "it was triggered mostly because Valkyryn's ill-mannered taking over of the thread"
I think we may have to disagree here.
To clarify my own words, I mean your reply here in this thread (the one I quoted), not that you'd replied to vaklyryn directly. I regret the confusion.
posted by boo_radley at 3:06 PM on October 14, 2010
I think we may have to disagree here.
To clarify my own words, I mean your reply here in this thread (the one I quoted), not that you'd replied to vaklyryn directly. I regret the confusion.
posted by boo_radley at 3:06 PM on October 14, 2010
A character limit would have killed the Resolute Desk post too, probably the best post in MeFi history.
posted by synaesthetichaze at 3:11 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by synaesthetichaze at 3:11 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
if it's based on the plainly debunked notion that I deleted the post because of valkyryn's comments it's not an opinion that's got a lot going for it
With respect, and maybe it seems a self-fulfilling process to say so, but if the fighty comments from one person had been removed, there would not have been the perception that the thread was fighty, and that would not have been the implied ("fight-starting") reason for its deletion. It's unfortunate that kliuless was essentially blamed for what boiled down to the problematic behavior of two or three commenters who contributed to the bulk of his post.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:15 PM on October 14, 2010
With respect, and maybe it seems a self-fulfilling process to say so, but if the fighty comments from one person had been removed, there would not have been the perception that the thread was fighty, and that would not have been the implied ("fight-starting") reason for its deletion. It's unfortunate that kliuless was essentially blamed for what boiled down to the problematic behavior of two or three commenters who contributed to the bulk of his post.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:15 PM on October 14, 2010
I think we may have to disagree here.
Fair enough. My observation seems pretty obvious from reading the post's comments, but, granted, it is a fairly long post.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:19 PM on October 14, 2010
Fair enough. My observation seems pretty obvious from reading the post's comments, but, granted, it is a fairly long post.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:19 PM on October 14, 2010
I love the encyclopedic posts when it's about a genre of music, or history of cartoons, or something where more information makes for a better post, but this felt like someone dumping one op-ed on top of another on top of another and so on to ram a point through and frankly, I think it might be time to consider character limits on posting since that was a ginormous post (it was over 2400 words!!!).
I tried counting words/characters on what I think is my longest, and what may be filthy light thief's longest post -- the aforementioned Drum & Bass.
These numbers are approximate....
1,478 words. 13,868 characters with spaces.
2027 words. 23810 characters, including spaces
If you really think a character limit on posts is necessary, might I respectfully request that posts be shunted to some sort of moderation queue after they reach a specific character limit, rather than being blocked?
posted by zarq at 3:19 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
I tried counting words/characters on what I think is my longest, and what may be filthy light thief's longest post -- the aforementioned Drum & Bass.
These numbers are approximate....
1,478 words. 13,868 characters with spaces.
2027 words. 23810 characters, including spaces
If you really think a character limit on posts is necessary, might I respectfully request that posts be shunted to some sort of moderation queue after they reach a specific character limit, rather than being blocked?
posted by zarq at 3:19 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's unfortunate that kliuless was essentially blamed for what boiled down to the problematic behavior of two or three commenters who contributed to the bulk of his post.
kliuless wasn't blamed for anyone else's behavior, or really blamed for anything at all; the post was a perfectly reasonable piece of work that he obviously put some time into, and which would be totally fine as a post on his blog. That doesn't make it a good post for mefi, and that was the substance of our reasoning for the deletion.
Metafilter, like most places, has its share of fighty-people problems. It's unfortunate, I wish it weren't so and long for a magic wand to make it not so in some convenient and consequence-free way, but no such wand has presented itself and so having people being fighty on the site sometimes remains a fact of life. We don't like it when people pull combative or shit-stirring crap on the site, and we do a lot of active work to minimize the impact it has on otherwise worthwhile threads. But part of that work is having posters and other commenters meet us halfway by not setting up or perpetuating bad dynamics through their own contributions.
Which means, among other things, thinking about the form and context and subject of a post and evaluating whether it's really a good idea for metafilter or if it should go somewhere else. That's pretty much the start and end of what I've got to say to kliuless about the post: no harm done, but this isn't a case where I think he got that right.
Meeting us halfway also means not being jerkish about someone else's behavior that you don't like, and giving us the benefit of the doubt when we make an effort to be totally clear about why we did or didn't make a given decision. The post was a problem on the face of it, not because of whatever comments were in the thread attached to it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:31 PM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
kliuless wasn't blamed for anyone else's behavior, or really blamed for anything at all; the post was a perfectly reasonable piece of work that he obviously put some time into, and which would be totally fine as a post on his blog. That doesn't make it a good post for mefi, and that was the substance of our reasoning for the deletion.
Metafilter, like most places, has its share of fighty-people problems. It's unfortunate, I wish it weren't so and long for a magic wand to make it not so in some convenient and consequence-free way, but no such wand has presented itself and so having people being fighty on the site sometimes remains a fact of life. We don't like it when people pull combative or shit-stirring crap on the site, and we do a lot of active work to minimize the impact it has on otherwise worthwhile threads. But part of that work is having posters and other commenters meet us halfway by not setting up or perpetuating bad dynamics through their own contributions.
Which means, among other things, thinking about the form and context and subject of a post and evaluating whether it's really a good idea for metafilter or if it should go somewhere else. That's pretty much the start and end of what I've got to say to kliuless about the post: no harm done, but this isn't a case where I think he got that right.
Meeting us halfway also means not being jerkish about someone else's behavior that you don't like, and giving us the benefit of the doubt when we make an effort to be totally clear about why we did or didn't make a given decision. The post was a problem on the face of it, not because of whatever comments were in the thread attached to it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:31 PM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
...might I respectfully request that posts be shunted to some sort of moderation queue after they reach a specific character limit, rather than being blocked?
Hey, November's coming up, maybe you guys could run an experiment?
We can laugh about that now, right?
posted by nomadicink at 3:34 PM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
Hey, November's coming up, maybe you guys could run an experiment?
We can laugh about that now, right?
posted by nomadicink at 3:34 PM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
Too soon!
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:39 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:39 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
I heartily endorse some form of experiment! I just know I have some ether and some neo-voltaic limbs left around here somewhere.
posted by klangklangston at 3:43 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by klangklangston at 3:43 PM on October 14, 2010
The deleted post would have been perfect for MegaFiller.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 3:46 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 3:46 PM on October 14, 2010
Honestly, it's posts like these that make me realize that I don't envy the mods' jobs at all--in a way, they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
I agree with others that posts shouldn't be pulled solely on the idea that they might start a fight/debate (and we've had some fantastic and mostly-intellectual debates about stuff, and some horrible trainwrecks) BUT aside from the potentially fighty aspects of this fpp, there are all the aforementioned problems with content, length, GYOB-ness, etc., etc. and really, while it may (or may not) make an interesting essay or blog post, it's not best of the web--at least, not in the way it's been presented.
So I guess that's my longwinded way of saying, I get where both sides are coming from, but I agree with the mods in this case.
posted by 1000monkeys at 3:52 PM on October 14, 2010
I agree with others that posts shouldn't be pulled solely on the idea that they might start a fight/debate (and we've had some fantastic and mostly-intellectual debates about stuff, and some horrible trainwrecks) BUT aside from the potentially fighty aspects of this fpp, there are all the aforementioned problems with content, length, GYOB-ness, etc., etc. and really, while it may (or may not) make an interesting essay or blog post, it's not best of the web--at least, not in the way it's been presented.
So I guess that's my longwinded way of saying, I get where both sides are coming from, but I agree with the mods in this case.
posted by 1000monkeys at 3:52 PM on October 14, 2010
I am glad that it is being talked here, so my [+]
posted by Danf at 3:54 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by Danf at 3:54 PM on October 14, 2010
five fresh fish: It would be interesting to run some lexical analysis tools. I wonder of we have users who seem to have identifiable writing and usage rates.
Look: Says Who?
posted by carsonb at 3:58 PM on October 14, 2010
Look: Says Who?
posted by carsonb at 3:58 PM on October 14, 2010
If you really think a character limit on posts is necessary, might I respectfully request that posts be shunted to some sort of moderation queue after they reach a specific character limit, rather than being blocked?
I think once we'd all had coffee we were less character-limit happy, but basically any pony request that includes any additional moderation queue sorts of things is a non-starter. Sorry.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:00 PM on October 14, 2010
I think once we'd all had coffee we were less character-limit happy, but basically any pony request that includes any additional moderation queue sorts of things is a non-starter. Sorry.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:00 PM on October 14, 2010
Yeah, the character limit idea isn't really the solution to any real problems on the site; as a sort of first-blush THAT'LL SHOW 'EM sort of thing it's got a prankish appeal but, practically speaking, a long post will work or it won't, just like a short one. As long as anyone putting together a megalith of a post keeps in mind that sheer length doesn't bulletproof it against deletion, the status quo works well enough.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:06 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:06 PM on October 14, 2010
I suppose if the minority are fucking the majority, you're correct.
That's not how Urban Dictionary defines it.
posted by anniecat at 4:07 PM on October 14, 2010
That's not how Urban Dictionary defines it.
posted by anniecat at 4:07 PM on October 14, 2010
I'm just glad this post made it to MeTa because otherwise I might not have seen it.
posted by ob1quixote at 4:09 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by ob1quixote at 4:09 PM on October 14, 2010
> ...and a lot of single link stuff is looked down on now.
I realize you're framing this as an observation and not necessarily an endorsement, Chuckles. Neverthless, it needs to be said every once in a while, so I'll use this as a prompt to say it: There is absolutely nothing wrong with a single-link post.
posted by .kobayashi. at 4:13 PM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
I realize you're framing this as an observation and not necessarily an endorsement, Chuckles. Neverthless, it needs to be said every once in a while, so I'll use this as a prompt to say it: There is absolutely nothing wrong with a single-link post.
posted by .kobayashi. at 4:13 PM on October 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
I'm just glad this post made it to MeTa because otherwise I might not have seen it.
You can read the Deleted Thread blog to see everything that gets posted to MetaFilter if you want.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:14 PM on October 14, 2010
You can read the Deleted Thread blog to see everything that gets posted to MetaFilter if you want.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:14 PM on October 14, 2010
It's a very long post, and would take a reader hours to really check out each and every of the 78(!!!) linked articles. This encourages people to NOT read anything and merely post their knee jerk reactions based on the excerpts.
One could say the same about many other posts on metafilter.
It contains loads of excerpts, so much that I don't think any of it was actually written by the original poster (it's hard to tell, which makes it all the more confusing).
Seems like a trivial complaint.
Finally, it's about a real hot button issue,
No it's not. The state of income inequality, the deteriorating economy, the financial crisis, are all front-page news.
it's like throwing ten barrels of gas on a fire to bombard everyone with dozens of articles about the same subject (and one side of it)
Where's the one side? I have not spent lots of time on all the links (have you?), but it seemed like an honest attempt to make sense of certain economic issues that are at the forefront of the news right now. I do not see the overwhelming bias or agenda that others see.
so naturally people came out of the gate fighting about it.
Why is this a bad thing? Arguments about important topics, even heated ones, can be a good thing.
posted by existential hobo at 4:18 PM on October 14, 2010
One could say the same about many other posts on metafilter.
It contains loads of excerpts, so much that I don't think any of it was actually written by the original poster (it's hard to tell, which makes it all the more confusing).
Seems like a trivial complaint.
Finally, it's about a real hot button issue,
No it's not. The state of income inequality, the deteriorating economy, the financial crisis, are all front-page news.
it's like throwing ten barrels of gas on a fire to bombard everyone with dozens of articles about the same subject (and one side of it)
Where's the one side? I have not spent lots of time on all the links (have you?), but it seemed like an honest attempt to make sense of certain economic issues that are at the forefront of the news right now. I do not see the overwhelming bias or agenda that others see.
so naturally people came out of the gate fighting about it.
Why is this a bad thing? Arguments about important topics, even heated ones, can be a good thing.
posted by existential hobo at 4:18 PM on October 14, 2010
> Finally, it's about a real hot button issue,
No it's not. The state of income inequality, the deteriorating economy, the financial crisis, are all front-page news.
I don't see the contradiction. Perhaps you read "hot button issue" differently than I do, but I take it as neutral to the newsworthiness of the subject; "hot button" is a description of its contentiousness, its likeliness to inflame or get a rise out of people. That could be front page news or a thirty year old story, a concrete event or a general subject.
Why is this a bad thing? Arguments about important topics, even heated ones, can be a good thing.
They can also be a bad thing. They tend toward bad. We're not banning arguments on metafilter but whether or not a post as presented is likely to produce more heat than light is certainly part of what we look at when trying to make a decision about a post. Arguments are not hard to come by.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:27 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
No it's not. The state of income inequality, the deteriorating economy, the financial crisis, are all front-page news.
I don't see the contradiction. Perhaps you read "hot button issue" differently than I do, but I take it as neutral to the newsworthiness of the subject; "hot button" is a description of its contentiousness, its likeliness to inflame or get a rise out of people. That could be front page news or a thirty year old story, a concrete event or a general subject.
Why is this a bad thing? Arguments about important topics, even heated ones, can be a good thing.
They can also be a bad thing. They tend toward bad. We're not banning arguments on metafilter but whether or not a post as presented is likely to produce more heat than light is certainly part of what we look at when trying to make a decision about a post. Arguments are not hard to come by.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:27 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
I didn't read the post, but I just want to say that for some reason, I'd always thought valkyryn was a lady.
posted by elpea at 4:29 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by elpea at 4:29 PM on October 14, 2010
Ok, Tomb Wrecks was a great post. THAT was excessive moderation. Moderation in all things - INCLUDING MODERATION PEOPLE.
posted by GuyZero at 4:34 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by GuyZero at 4:34 PM on October 14, 2010
A character limit would have killed the Resolute Desk post too, probably the best post in MeFi history.
Resolute Desk post
posted by mlis at 4:50 PM on October 14, 2010
Resolute Desk post
posted by mlis at 4:50 PM on October 14, 2010
Kevin Street: The variety and freedom here are a big part of what makes your website so appealing.
I just have to say, all due respect, but I think that just completely misses what is good about metafilter, and why. I am a big believer in constraints as tools to foster creativity and give purpose and direction to all sorts of endeavors, and it is the rules and constraints of Metafilter (which can seem downright draconian by General Internet Standards) that have made this site what it is. Without them, well, Reddit. Not a slag on Reddit; it is fine for what it is, but it is not Metafilter.
(And the mods here continue to amaze me with their flexible, human application of those rules.)
posted by ericost at 5:02 PM on October 14, 2010
I just have to say, all due respect, but I think that just completely misses what is good about metafilter, and why. I am a big believer in constraints as tools to foster creativity and give purpose and direction to all sorts of endeavors, and it is the rules and constraints of Metafilter (which can seem downright draconian by General Internet Standards) that have made this site what it is. Without them, well, Reddit. Not a slag on Reddit; it is fine for what it is, but it is not Metafilter.
(And the mods here continue to amaze me with their flexible, human application of those rules.)
posted by ericost at 5:02 PM on October 14, 2010
jessamyn: I think once we'd all had coffee we were less character-limit happy, but basically any pony request that includes any additional moderation queue sorts of things is a non-starter. Sorry.
No, it's okay. I knew when I posted the comment that I was asking y'all to create a lot more work for yourselves at (I assume) very little gain, so it was most likely going to be met by an entirely reasonable "nope."
I'm glad you're not seriously considering putting in a limit. The idea makes me cringe for obvious reasons. I've made posts that were say, 400-500 words long but had character counts over 10K just because of the links.
Yeah, the character limit idea isn't really the solution to any real problems on the site; as a sort of first-blush THAT'LL SHOW 'EM sort of thing it's got a prankish appeal but, practically speaking, a long post will work or it won't, just like a short one. As long as anyone putting together a megalith of a post keeps in mind that sheer length doesn't bulletproof it against deletion, the status quo works well enough.
That makes sense. Thank you.
posted by zarq at 5:06 PM on October 14, 2010
No, it's okay. I knew when I posted the comment that I was asking y'all to create a lot more work for yourselves at (I assume) very little gain, so it was most likely going to be met by an entirely reasonable "nope."
I'm glad you're not seriously considering putting in a limit. The idea makes me cringe for obvious reasons. I've made posts that were say, 400-500 words long but had character counts over 10K just because of the links.
Yeah, the character limit idea isn't really the solution to any real problems on the site; as a sort of first-blush THAT'LL SHOW 'EM sort of thing it's got a prankish appeal but, practically speaking, a long post will work or it won't, just like a short one. As long as anyone putting together a megalith of a post keeps in mind that sheer length doesn't bulletproof it against deletion, the status quo works well enough.
That makes sense. Thank you.
posted by zarq at 5:06 PM on October 14, 2010
(I should also say that I'm not excited about the possibility of character limits as a new mefi rule; seems like a sledgehammer.)
posted by ericost at 5:10 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by ericost at 5:10 PM on October 14, 2010
I'd be fine with a character limit if I thought it'd be effective. But there'd be any easy way around it: OP could post extra content in the first comment.
posted by John Cohen at 5:29 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by John Cohen at 5:29 PM on October 14, 2010
I used to be a lot more fighty, but some of my life circumstances have changed and I think my posting style has changed too.
Nowadays I'd like to think of myself as the kind of MeFite that you'd have over for clever bon mots and coffee. Part of my reformation is trying to treat MetaFilter as if it were somebody's really big living room in which I'm a guest.
It doesn't preclude political discussions or even heated discussions I guess, it just means not getting drunk and vomiting on the carpet while getting in a fistfight with that Ron Paul asshole in the corner -- as entertaining as that would be.
posted by Avenger at 5:30 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
Nowadays I'd like to think of myself as the kind of MeFite that you'd have over for clever bon mots and coffee. Part of my reformation is trying to treat MetaFilter as if it were somebody's really big living room in which I'm a guest.
It doesn't preclude political discussions or even heated discussions I guess, it just means not getting drunk and vomiting on the carpet while getting in a fistfight with that Ron Paul asshole in the corner -- as entertaining as that would be.
posted by Avenger at 5:30 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
metafilter has really become fun, that thread was a, a, i say vote lictors for the MODS, matt gets 4, 2 each for the duo and pb gets a machinegun
posted by clavdivs at 5:35 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by clavdivs at 5:35 PM on October 14, 2010
OP could post extra content in the first comment.
That's actually the way it used to be before MeFi had the "more inside" option.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:39 PM on October 14, 2010
That's actually the way it used to be before MeFi had the "more inside" option.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:39 PM on October 14, 2010
Just stumbled across this MeTa, and hey, there's my name. Don't really feel the need to defend myself though, as others seem to have done that for me and the mods have indicated that they considered the post fit for deletion on its own. Personally, I'm not sure what else could have been done, even though I did spend quite a bit of time formulating my last reply.
As far as BP's call-out is concerned, he drops a one liner, I drop a one-liner, turnabout being fair play, etc. No names called, no bile flung, but apparently it's a "belligerent temper tantrum".
Well this ain't our first rodeo, and though I've basically ignored him since then and he has seemed to keep a more civil tongue in his head lately, the thought that he seems to have been waiting for a chance to return the favor is disappointing. I got nuthin' to say to him either way.
posted by valkyryn at 6:00 PM on October 14, 2010
As far as BP's call-out is concerned, he drops a one liner, I drop a one-liner, turnabout being fair play, etc. No names called, no bile flung, but apparently it's a "belligerent temper tantrum".
Well this ain't our first rodeo, and though I've basically ignored him since then and he has seemed to keep a more civil tongue in his head lately, the thought that he seems to have been waiting for a chance to return the favor is disappointing. I got nuthin' to say to him either way.
posted by valkyryn at 6:00 PM on October 14, 2010
Also, boo on character limits. I just wrote a thousand-word, 47-link FPP which seemed to go over just fine.
posted by valkyryn at 6:06 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by valkyryn at 6:06 PM on October 14, 2010
I like turtles.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:31 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by five fresh fish at 6:31 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
I too appreciate that valkryn is willing and able to go toe to toe with the vocal majority.
I don't agree with him at all, but then . . . I am kind of drunk.
posted by Think_Long at 6:35 PM on October 14, 2010
I don't agree with him at all, but then . . . I am kind of drunk.
posted by Think_Long at 6:35 PM on October 14, 2010
That's actually the way it used to be before MeFi had the "more inside" option.
And thus the famous mushroom post.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:03 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
And thus the famous mushroom post.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:03 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
Are you talking about the problem with MetaFilter or the problem with the world generally?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:26 PM on October 14, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:26 PM on October 14, 2010
Look: Says Who?
I need to read more MeFi... I missed more than 2/3 of these.
posted by patheral at 7:26 PM on October 14, 2010
I need to read more MeFi... I missed more than 2/3 of these.
posted by patheral at 7:26 PM on October 14, 2010
...unprecedented concentration of wealth by a fraction of the population...
I agree unhappily that the trend over perhaps the last 40 years is for wealth to be concentrated in the hands of fewer people. At present I believe that 1% of the population controls 24% of the wealth as opposed to 1% controlling 18% just before the Great Depression. From Cheops to Carnegie however such a concentration of wealth is very not unprecedented.
posted by vapidave at 7:56 PM on October 14, 2010
I agree unhappily that the trend over perhaps the last 40 years is for wealth to be concentrated in the hands of fewer people. At present I believe that 1% of the population controls 24% of the wealth as opposed to 1% controlling 18% just before the Great Depression. From Cheops to Carnegie however such a concentration of wealth is very not unprecedented.
posted by vapidave at 7:56 PM on October 14, 2010
You guys, it is really simple. The links were crap. A lot of them did not point to what they said they pointed to. It was not best of the web. You could make a really excellent post that broke apart the current situation, gave it historical context, introduced new and original information, and pointed to well written, insightful, and artful content.
This post did none of that. A bunch of links to the same blog, links to Onion videos, and so on.
posted by Deathalicious at 8:23 PM on October 14, 2010 [7 favorites]
This post did none of that. A bunch of links to the same blog, links to Onion videos, and so on.
posted by Deathalicious at 8:23 PM on October 14, 2010 [7 favorites]
Dick Wicking, deserves a quiet night.
I'm not sure all these people understand.
posted by drjimmy11 at 8:25 PM on October 14, 2010
I'm not sure all these people understand.
posted by drjimmy11 at 8:25 PM on October 14, 2010
I'm with Deathalicious on the post. I started to read through it, and moused over to see where the links lead. The fact that, at least in the intro, roughly half of them led to the same blog seemed a bit odd. If you want to post about about something, and claim it's a widely held opinion, linking to the same three or four sites/bloggers throughout your post is probably not the way to go.
tl;dr: It might have been more effective to just post a link to Andrew Sullivan's blog.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:08 PM on October 14, 2010
tl;dr: It might have been more effective to just post a link to Andrew Sullivan's blog.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:08 PM on October 14, 2010
To anyone defending the FPP: I'd be interested to know how many of the links you clicked. Did you think they supported the text well?
posted by John Cohen at 9:20 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by John Cohen at 9:20 PM on October 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
Okay, this is totally unrelated, but it is about Minecraft, so...
I'm LitChick on Minecraft, and I just went to multiplayer for the first time, and took a tour with Katullus, and it is amazing what everyone is doing over there!
posted by misha at 10:00 PM on October 14, 2010
I'm LitChick on Minecraft, and I just went to multiplayer for the first time, and took a tour with Katullus, and it is amazing what everyone is doing over there!
posted by misha at 10:00 PM on October 14, 2010
shelleycat: Holy crap! Please don't include character limits if it reduces posts like that one.
zarq: I tried counting words/characters on what I think is my longest, and what may be filthy light thief's longest post -- the aforementioned Drum & Bass.
These numbers are approximate....
1,478 words. 13,868 characters with spaces. (Israel "Brudda Iz" Kamakawiwoʻole)
2027 words. 23810 characters, including spaces (History of Drum'n'Bass)
I was going to say my Pogues post was longer, but that was a mere 1,407 words and a 8,118 characters, yet that one broke the link checker (at least, I think that's what pb told me). Overkill posts are the plague that is killing MetaFilter, or something.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:15 PM on October 14, 2010
zarq: I tried counting words/characters on what I think is my longest, and what may be filthy light thief's longest post -- the aforementioned Drum & Bass.
These numbers are approximate....
1,478 words. 13,868 characters with spaces. (Israel "Brudda Iz" Kamakawiwoʻole)
2027 words. 23810 characters, including spaces (History of Drum'n'Bass)
I was going to say my Pogues post was longer, but that was a mere 1,407 words and a 8,118 characters, yet that one broke the link checker (at least, I think that's what pb told me). Overkill posts are the plague that is killing MetaFilter, or something.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:15 PM on October 14, 2010
everybody can dick their wick
As somebody for whom English is a second language I've learned a lot of American idiom from movies, television and songs.
F.i. somebody says "you rock" and it doesn't make referential sense. But the person saying it shows a certain streetwise swagger while saying it combined with an appreciative expression.
So that's how I learned those US idioms that fulfill a socio-cultural role.
I was already on the first step of that process with "dicking your wick". Had assigned it a tentative approximate meaning.
In my experience emotive expressions in a foreign language always stay a bit unreal. I still wouldn't be able to say "you rock" without heavy irony.
posted by joost de vries at 10:53 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
As somebody for whom English is a second language I've learned a lot of American idiom from movies, television and songs.
F.i. somebody says "you rock" and it doesn't make referential sense. But the person saying it shows a certain streetwise swagger while saying it combined with an appreciative expression.
So that's how I learned those US idioms that fulfill a socio-cultural role.
I was already on the first step of that process with "dicking your wick". Had assigned it a tentative approximate meaning.
In my experience emotive expressions in a foreign language always stay a bit unreal. I still wouldn't be able to say "you rock" without heavy irony.
posted by joost de vries at 10:53 PM on October 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Which bit of it was the best of the web?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:45 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:45 AM on October 15, 2010
I would also like to congratulate whomever is running the Faze sockpuppet on keeping the crazy fresh after all these years.
I have to second this emotion. I actually get excited when I see Faze's name at the bottom of a paragraph-long comment, because they follow an extremely humorous pattern.
1. Aggressively combative but apposite and rational statement refuting either the OP or the prevailing thread opinion.
2. Extension of the original idea that progresses into the thread-appropriate equivalent of tin-foil hat territory while not tipping entirely over the edge into parody.
3. Triumphant procession of the statement into an complete nonsequitur that manages to support the original idea only in some sort of parallel universe where logic involves putting concepts into a box and shaking them really hard.
Faze has never failed to deliver on this pattern. Not once. I know his comments must make the mods' jobs very hard, and I always feel like a bad person for enjoying something designed to goad people so much, but his comments are works of art.
posted by winna at 1:58 AM on October 15, 2010 [16 favorites]
Chuckles writes "It was. However, MetaFilter has been evolving, and a lot of single link stuff is looked down on now. 'You didn't put enough effort into it' and 'It wasn't done well', and all that.."
Single links are fine. Less fine is mystery meat, single links to funny pictures and other Farkish sort of content, and axe grindy SLOE.
filthy light thief writes "I was going to say my Pogues post was longer, but that was a mere 1,407 words and a 8,118 characters, yet that one broke the link checker (at least, I think that's what pb told me). Overkill posts are the plague that is killing MetaFilter, or something."
The controversial 5 minute gettysburg post was only 5900 characters and 1032 words. My comment in that meta applies equally here in that this post reads like a blog post not a metafilter post and if the post had been a link to the poster's blog it would have been autodeleted. This post is, intentially or not, a 2500 word attempt to bypass the guidelines.
posted by Mitheral at 3:30 AM on October 15, 2010
Single links are fine. Less fine is mystery meat, single links to funny pictures and other Farkish sort of content, and axe grindy SLOE.
filthy light thief writes "I was going to say my Pogues post was longer, but that was a mere 1,407 words and a 8,118 characters, yet that one broke the link checker (at least, I think that's what pb told me). Overkill posts are the plague that is killing MetaFilter, or something."
The controversial 5 minute gettysburg post was only 5900 characters and 1032 words. My comment in that meta applies equally here in that this post reads like a blog post not a metafilter post and if the post had been a link to the poster's blog it would have been autodeleted. This post is, intentially or not, a 2500 word attempt to bypass the guidelines.
posted by Mitheral at 3:30 AM on October 15, 2010
Well, I certainly think it's possible for posts to be too long and too link-heavy. That one definitely was.
posted by Decani at 4:10 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by Decani at 4:10 AM on October 15, 2010
It's unfortunate that kliuless was essentially blamed for what boiled down to the problematic behavior of two or three commenters who contributed to the bulk of his post.
I got the sense that the primary reason it was deleted was more about "Holy fucking dickbeans this is a huge post with too many links." (I personally abandoned it after reading only a third of the way down the initial post itself because it was just total information overload.)
The fact that there was agita may have been a factor insofar as "weelllll, IF people seem to like it, maybe we can make an exception," except most people didn't like it and there were rumblings of war drums starting, so, yoink.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:25 AM on October 15, 2010
I got the sense that the primary reason it was deleted was more about "Holy fucking dickbeans this is a huge post with too many links." (I personally abandoned it after reading only a third of the way down the initial post itself because it was just total information overload.)
The fact that there was agita may have been a factor insofar as "weelllll, IF people seem to like it, maybe we can make an exception," except most people didn't like it and there were rumblings of war drums starting, so, yoink.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:25 AM on October 15, 2010
I'm definitely going to follow some of those links; it was one of the best possible posts that absolutely should be deleted.
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:35 AM on October 15, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:35 AM on October 15, 2010 [3 favorites]
In other words, GYOB so that I can follow it. Although, kliuless's website listed in his profile is painful from a color standpoint. Professional white background yo.
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:38 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:38 AM on October 15, 2010
Weirdly enough your own reply is a better example of "poisoning the well" than valkyryn's posts.
I didn't reply to him. I ignored most of his 15 comments after his response to my comment. If this Metatalk thread didn't exist, though, I would have started one to call out his awful behavior. It was not a great deletion, and it was triggered mostly because Valkyryn's ill-mannered taking over of the thread poisoned any possible discussion of the content of the post.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:57 PM on October 15
How in the world are you able to function in a state of consistently high cognitive dissonance? I mean, honestly, you're one of the few posters here who consistently stands out as super fighty and smug every time I read a controversial post. Your formula is to assert something that is questionable as empirically and unquestionably true, do it in a manner that suggests you are completely uninterested in dialogue, and then accuse all of those that question you of being awfully behaved, trolls, or worse.
You need to check this if you are at all interested in having meaningful discussions with other adults that advance our knowledge. No one admires or even likes the person in the room who not only thinks that s/he is the smartest but is also quick to let everyone else know how dumb they are. I say this as someone in academia who has all sorts of heated arguments about seemingly minor issues and as someone who is genuinely interested in finding out empirical truths but is humble enough to know that settled debates are usually far less settled than they appear at first blush. Believe me, I run into people with your attitude on a daily basis, as almost all of us in academia were, at various points, the "smartest person in the room", yet I find that I, and many of my respected colleagues, are less, and not more, inclined to listen to points coming from someone with this attitude.
posted by proj at 5:02 AM on October 15, 2010 [19 favorites]
I didn't reply to him. I ignored most of his 15 comments after his response to my comment. If this Metatalk thread didn't exist, though, I would have started one to call out his awful behavior. It was not a great deletion, and it was triggered mostly because Valkyryn's ill-mannered taking over of the thread poisoned any possible discussion of the content of the post.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:57 PM on October 15
How in the world are you able to function in a state of consistently high cognitive dissonance? I mean, honestly, you're one of the few posters here who consistently stands out as super fighty and smug every time I read a controversial post. Your formula is to assert something that is questionable as empirically and unquestionably true, do it in a manner that suggests you are completely uninterested in dialogue, and then accuse all of those that question you of being awfully behaved, trolls, or worse.
You need to check this if you are at all interested in having meaningful discussions with other adults that advance our knowledge. No one admires or even likes the person in the room who not only thinks that s/he is the smartest but is also quick to let everyone else know how dumb they are. I say this as someone in academia who has all sorts of heated arguments about seemingly minor issues and as someone who is genuinely interested in finding out empirical truths but is humble enough to know that settled debates are usually far less settled than they appear at first blush. Believe me, I run into people with your attitude on a daily basis, as almost all of us in academia were, at various points, the "smartest person in the room", yet I find that I, and many of my respected colleagues, are less, and not more, inclined to listen to points coming from someone with this attitude.
posted by proj at 5:02 AM on October 15, 2010 [19 favorites]
I thought the phrase was "dip your wick." Or am I thinking of a different metaphor?
posted by zarq at 6:32 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by zarq at 6:32 AM on October 15, 2010
Excessive Moderation?
I like to think of this as a bearded cortex sitting on throne ala Cona the Barbarian, a goblet of wine in one hand and iPhone in the other, barking orders to underlings about statistics.
Admittedly, I tried swap cortex out for jessamyn in the scenario., but then realized the beard wouldn't work as well.
posted by nomadicink at 6:44 AM on October 15, 2010
I like to think of this as a bearded cortex sitting on throne ala Cona the Barbarian, a goblet of wine in one hand and iPhone in the other, barking orders to underlings about statistics.
Admittedly, I tried swap cortex out for jessamyn in the scenario., but then realized the beard wouldn't work as well.
posted by nomadicink at 6:44 AM on October 15, 2010
When I try to picture your imagined scenario I keep coming up with scenes from Holy Mountain.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:46 AM on October 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 6:46 AM on October 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
I was going to say my Pogues post was longer, but that was a mere 1,407 words and a 8,118 characters, yet that one broke the link checker (at least, I think that's what pb told me).
Interesting, isn't it? I thought that was your longest too, but nope.
I thought based on the volume of links alone that my 3-2-1 Contact post would be high in characters. Nope. A mere 409 words and 5,147 characters. Blogfather (including the first comment) was about 1000 words and 11,000 characters.
Overkill posts are the plague that is killing MetaFilter, or something.
Heh.
Your posts are works of art. They're absolutely "best of the web," and a huge part of what makes this place great, imo.
Lately with longer posts, I've deliberately tried not to put too much above the fold. If people are interested in the topic, they'll click through and hopefully be pleasantly surprised. If not, I haven't cluttered up the front page too much.
posted by zarq at 6:55 AM on October 15, 2010
Interesting, isn't it? I thought that was your longest too, but nope.
I thought based on the volume of links alone that my 3-2-1 Contact post would be high in characters. Nope. A mere 409 words and 5,147 characters. Blogfather (including the first comment) was about 1000 words and 11,000 characters.
Overkill posts are the plague that is killing MetaFilter, or something.
Heh.
Your posts are works of art. They're absolutely "best of the web," and a huge part of what makes this place great, imo.
Lately with longer posts, I've deliberately tried not to put too much above the fold. If people are interested in the topic, they'll click through and hopefully be pleasantly surprised. If not, I haven't cluttered up the front page too much.
posted by zarq at 6:55 AM on October 15, 2010
The phrase is, indeed, "dip your wick", I just couldn't type yesterday morning was the problem. I was going for a less blatantly sexual deployment of the metaphor—which is maybe hopeless in the first place, but I like imagining a bunch of happy mefites wandering through the Candle Factory of internet funtimes, slowly crafting tallow-soft lopsided memories in the colors of their choice—but that backfired pretty badly at the lexeme level and so here we are.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:59 AM on October 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:59 AM on October 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
What's the longest post in terms of raw HTML, though?
posted by shakespeherian at 7:15 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by shakespeherian at 7:15 AM on October 15, 2010
NO BUT SERIOUSLY, FUCK THE RICH
posted by The Devil Tesla at 7:18 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by The Devil Tesla at 7:18 AM on October 15, 2010
YOU FUCK THEM.
I find their 800 thread count sheets off-putting.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:26 AM on October 15, 2010 [11 favorites]
I find their 800 thread count sheets off-putting.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:26 AM on October 15, 2010 [11 favorites]
Ouch.
"As a general rule, dip your wick in molten wax before you use it. This makes it much easier to handle, straighten and trim with a knife."
posted by SyntacticSugar at 7:30 AM on October 15, 2010
"As a general rule, dip your wick in molten wax before you use it. This makes it much easier to handle, straighten and trim with a knife."
posted by SyntacticSugar at 7:30 AM on October 15, 2010
NO BUT SERIOUSLY, FUCK THE RICH
HOW ABOUT WE EAT THE RICH?!
posted by SyntacticSugar at 7:33 AM on October 15, 2010
HOW ABOUT WE EAT THE RICH?!
posted by SyntacticSugar at 7:33 AM on October 15, 2010
Kill the Poor and then eat them. Hang on, I'm one of them. Don't kill me!
posted by h00py at 7:55 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by h00py at 7:55 AM on October 15, 2010
I don't want to add fuel to the fire and rock the boat like Tippecanoe, so not to be a dick or anything, but
posted by Mister_A at 8:00 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Mister_A at 8:00 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
No one has ever heard of that person.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:04 AM on October 15, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:04 AM on October 15, 2010 [4 favorites]
I still wouldn't be able to say "you rock" without heavy irony.
If it makes you feel better, I am born American and feel the same way about "you rock". I haven't heard anyone use it non-ironically since the 80s. I'm not sure you can.
posted by cj_ at 8:04 AM on October 15, 2010
If it makes you feel better, I am born American and feel the same way about "you rock". I haven't heard anyone use it non-ironically since the 80s. I'm not sure you can.
posted by cj_ at 8:04 AM on October 15, 2010
A free market is an extremely efficient method for allocating scarce resources to the wealthy. Also, in a free market, the amount you can make is roughly proportional to the amount you have available to invest. Concentrations of wealth are the inevitable consequence of two facts: (a) it takes money to make money and (b) face time with policy makers is a scarce resource.
posted by flabdablet at 8:33 AM on October 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:33 AM on October 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
I like things that are free. A whole market of free stuff? I am IN.
posted by not_on_display at 8:43 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by not_on_display at 8:43 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
It was just a Greasemonkey thing on my side.
whos sock puppet are you?
posted by clavdivs at 9:01 AM on October 15, 2010
whos sock puppet are you?
posted by clavdivs at 9:01 AM on October 15, 2010
All this dick wicking will not stand.
It's certainly an improvement over dick winking. that's just creepy.
posted by orville sash at 9:07 AM on October 15, 2010
It's certainly an improvement over dick winking. that's just creepy.
posted by orville sash at 9:07 AM on October 15, 2010
You're confusing free store and free market. Happens to the best of us.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:07 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:07 AM on October 15, 2010
They used to always give away Free Mumia on Fridays by City Hall in Philly. Or so their signs claimed.
posted by Mister_A at 9:09 AM on October 15, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by Mister_A at 9:09 AM on October 15, 2010 [3 favorites]
cj_, my fellow student of US American vernacular, I'm sad to say that I have to correct you. The expression 'to rock' has not gone out of use. Quite to the contrary it's used frequently. Even within our own metafilter sociolect.
I've observed though that in the mefi sociolect it needs to be modified with 'fucking' for extra expressiveness and gravitas.
Even today I've already seen a comment appear with '[something] fucking rocks'.
Just have a look what a query for 'fucking rocks' on metafilter comes up with. I notice only one occurrence where the intended meaning is "sex with stones".
In fact I've noticed that there are quite a few mefites that habitually enrich their bare informational statements ("I enjoyed that music") with the maximum grammatical amount of emotive swagger phrases ("[That LGBT singer songwriter on her fixie] fucking rocks!".
In my mind I tend to de-swagger those comments. It's interesting to see what that does to the resulting discourse. I'm often struck by how the majority of what remains seems to be "opinion", "counter opinion", "restate opinion" etc.
Informationally that is of little value. So I guess that the majority of the emotive swagger comments boil down to "here I am. I'm part of the group" and "I challenge your status in the group".
Read all about it in my forthcoming report "Emotive modifiers in US American online vernacular in semi-open digital communities; The verbal swagger of the Metafilter digihipster".
posted by joost de vries at 9:16 AM on October 15, 2010 [9 favorites]
I've observed though that in the mefi sociolect it needs to be modified with 'fucking' for extra expressiveness and gravitas.
Even today I've already seen a comment appear with '[something] fucking rocks'.
Just have a look what a query for 'fucking rocks' on metafilter comes up with. I notice only one occurrence where the intended meaning is "sex with stones".
In fact I've noticed that there are quite a few mefites that habitually enrich their bare informational statements ("I enjoyed that music") with the maximum grammatical amount of emotive swagger phrases ("[That LGBT singer songwriter on her fixie] fucking rocks!".
In my mind I tend to de-swagger those comments. It's interesting to see what that does to the resulting discourse. I'm often struck by how the majority of what remains seems to be "opinion", "counter opinion", "restate opinion" etc.
Informationally that is of little value. So I guess that the majority of the emotive swagger comments boil down to "here I am. I'm part of the group" and "I challenge your status in the group".
Read all about it in my forthcoming report "Emotive modifiers in US American online vernacular in semi-open digital communities; The verbal swagger of the Metafilter digihipster".
posted by joost de vries at 9:16 AM on October 15, 2010 [9 favorites]
I have told coworkers at several jobs, and random people with whom I have had positive interactions, that they rock. Sometimes as an adjunct to a "thank you", other times to express something like "good work". Without the "fucking" intensifier in all but contextually-appropriate situations.
I do not throw up the horns and play air guitar when I do this, though. It's fairly matter-of-fact enthusiastic positivity. I could be saying "kudos due!" instead or something, but "you rock" is more natural for me.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:22 AM on October 15, 2010
I do not throw up the horns and play air guitar when I do this, though. It's fairly matter-of-fact enthusiastic positivity. I could be saying "kudos due!" instead or something, but "you rock" is more natural for me.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:22 AM on October 15, 2010
cortex, that's da bomb!
posted by nomadicink at 9:24 AM on October 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by nomadicink at 9:24 AM on October 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
I prefer the flea market.
I initially read 'digihipster' as 'dipshitter,' and I kinda prefer that too.
posted by box at 9:27 AM on October 15, 2010
I initially read 'digihipster' as 'dipshitter,' and I kinda prefer that too.
posted by box at 9:27 AM on October 15, 2010
I notice only one occurrence where the intended meaning is "sex with stones".
The hell with that "coffee on my computer" crap when someone says something funny on the internet, that line just about got potato salad all over my monitor.
posted by marxchivist at 9:28 AM on October 15, 2010
The hell with that "coffee on my computer" crap when someone says something funny on the internet, that line just about got potato salad all over my monitor.
posted by marxchivist at 9:28 AM on October 15, 2010
Ehm, Mister_A, but, but, I rock a Dutch style upright bike, an awesome fitting 64 cm frame reinforced with kick ass diagonal steel tubes with bitching panniers. So there!
I do not throw up the horns and play air guitar when I do this, though.
:-)
posted by joost de vries at 9:30 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
I do not throw up the horns and play air guitar when I do this, though.
:-)
posted by joost de vries at 9:30 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
All this dick wicking will not stand.
So I guess it's more a case of dick wilting.
posted by joost de vries at 9:33 AM on October 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
So I guess it's more a case of dick wilting.
posted by joost de vries at 9:33 AM on October 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
And "dick what thou wilt" shall be the whole of the law.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:35 AM on October 15, 2010 [8 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:35 AM on October 15, 2010 [8 favorites]
schmod, I wasn't a fan of either of your "spammy" links, but that's a mischaracterization. They may have not been the strongest subjects, but both posters are people that wouldn't be spamming. Unless you mean that in some other way.
Sorry -- to clarify, I recognize that both of those posts came from respected members of our community. However, the sites they linked to seem to exist almost purely for their own self-promotion. I'm not sure if I can completely quantify it, but it seems strongly correlated to the site's number (and prominence) of "Share on____" and "Follow me on ____" buttons and boilerplate text. "42 HILARIOUS KITTENS" doesn't make an acceptable FPP, and I'm not sure why other similar arbitrarily-numbered lists on heavily-ad-laden sites have made it through.
They're good topics for discussion, but the discussion becomes muddled when the quality of the link in the FPP is so low that the discussion shifts toward the quality, rather than the content of the article.
I'm still not adequately convinced that cortex is not a robot.
posted by schmod at 9:35 AM on October 15, 2010
Sorry -- to clarify, I recognize that both of those posts came from respected members of our community. However, the sites they linked to seem to exist almost purely for their own self-promotion. I'm not sure if I can completely quantify it, but it seems strongly correlated to the site's number (and prominence) of "Share on____" and "Follow me on ____" buttons and boilerplate text. "42 HILARIOUS KITTENS" doesn't make an acceptable FPP, and I'm not sure why other similar arbitrarily-numbered lists on heavily-ad-laden sites have made it through.
They're good topics for discussion, but the discussion becomes muddled when the quality of the link in the FPP is so low that the discussion shifts toward the quality, rather than the content of the article.
I'm still not adequately convinced that cortex is not a robot.
posted by schmod at 9:35 AM on October 15, 2010
Btw an example in McSweeneys where your typical emotive verbal swagger is super-imposed on a totally different register; that of suburbia moms. To humouristic effect.
tx to tps on metachat
posted by joost de vries at 10:11 AM on October 15, 2010
tx to tps on metachat
posted by joost de vries at 10:11 AM on October 15, 2010
Well OK then, you're in, joost. You sound very tall (64 cm! Your bike is 10 cm taller than mine!).
posted by Mister_A at 10:14 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by Mister_A at 10:14 AM on October 15, 2010
Excessive Moderation? Meet Radical Hospitality amirite...
Is there a more mushy word in the English language? Hospitality. But, no - we aren't talking about Martha Stewart and which spoon to use for the dessert course. (We haven't a clue....)
This week on Tapestry: a more gritty brand of hospitality. From the woman in Calgary who invites a homeless guy to come and stay ... to refugee homes in Winnipeg and Toronto. We'll also be knocking on doors at a L'Arche community and at the Munk School of Global Affairs. This hospitality idea has implications all over the world.
Download the program/or stream it.
....
The sign out front reads: "We Are One Family"—males, females, children, seniors, gays, straights, infants, liberals, conservatives, dreamers, whites, blacks, Christians, non-Christians, questioners, the partnered, the single, those in recovery, searchers, youth. The congregation refers to itself as a family united by questions and dreams "rather than our answers." Visual representations of the parish’s commitments include an "It Is a Come as You Are Party" banner, a rainbow flag, the black liberation flag, and a portrait of Martin Luther King, Jr.
posted by infinite intimation at 10:15 AM on October 15, 2010
Is there a more mushy word in the English language? Hospitality. But, no - we aren't talking about Martha Stewart and which spoon to use for the dessert course. (We haven't a clue....)
This week on Tapestry: a more gritty brand of hospitality. From the woman in Calgary who invites a homeless guy to come and stay ... to refugee homes in Winnipeg and Toronto. We'll also be knocking on doors at a L'Arche community and at the Munk School of Global Affairs. This hospitality idea has implications all over the world.
Download the program/or stream it.
....
The sign out front reads: "We Are One Family"—males, females, children, seniors, gays, straights, infants, liberals, conservatives, dreamers, whites, blacks, Christians, non-Christians, questioners, the partnered, the single, those in recovery, searchers, youth. The congregation refers to itself as a family united by questions and dreams "rather than our answers." Visual representations of the parish’s commitments include an "It Is a Come as You Are Party" banner, a rainbow flag, the black liberation flag, and a portrait of Martin Luther King, Jr.
posted by infinite intimation at 10:15 AM on October 15, 2010
I don't know about character limits but any use of ginormous should be permabanned.
posted by y2karl at 10:16 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 10:16 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
We say "ginormogantic" now. EG, "joost de vries, your bike is ginormogantic!"
posted by Mister_A at 10:18 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by Mister_A at 10:18 AM on October 15, 2010
Speaking of weird deletion reasons.
posted by Brent Parker at 10:20 AM on October 15, 2010
This post was deleted for the following reason: This is kind of oddly specific-yet-vague and it's not clear what problem you're trying to solve here. -- cortexI understand that this question is weird - but I'm really trying to wrap my head around this deletion reason. I mean the dude says he what the problem he's trying to solve is and is super specific. But it is a rather weird question. Chatfilter?
posted by Brent Parker at 10:20 AM on October 15, 2010
I wasn't even sure exactly what to say there. A terse "Chatfilter" would have worked just as well, I guess.
Dude says what he's looking for but gives no indication whatsoever what actual problem anywhere in reality he's trying to solve, is my take on that front. The What was there but not the Why, in other words; an implicit "so I can disagree with something Seth Godin said" is kind of a reach.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:24 AM on October 15, 2010
Dude says what he's looking for but gives no indication whatsoever what actual problem anywhere in reality he's trying to solve, is my take on that front. The What was there but not the Why, in other words; an implicit "so I can disagree with something Seth Godin said" is kind of a reach.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:24 AM on October 15, 2010
Does anyone have any FPF (food preparation formulae) to share? If so, don't share them here.
posted by Mister_A at 10:24 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by Mister_A at 10:24 AM on October 15, 2010
Also finding a counter example for a truism is kinda like shooting fish in a bucket.
posted by Brent Parker at 10:28 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by Brent Parker at 10:28 AM on October 15, 2010
Mister_A My city bikes frame is 66 cm I just realised. 64 is my road bike. Thankfully these kind of bikes are not that hard to find in NL.
posted by joost de vries at 10:36 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by joost de vries at 10:36 AM on October 15, 2010
Mister_A: We say "ginormogantic" now
Thank you for helping me improve my grasp of English; make it sound less archaic and schoolish.
I'll work ginormogantic frequently in my conversations with US and Canadian expats. They'll be astounded how 'with it' and 'hip' I am. Having a contemporary quality to my my speech makes me more approachable and relatable I'm sure.
Thank you.
posted by joost de vries at 10:42 AM on October 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
Thank you for helping me improve my grasp of English; make it sound less archaic and schoolish.
I'll work ginormogantic frequently in my conversations with US and Canadian expats. They'll be astounded how 'with it' and 'hip' I am. Having a contemporary quality to my my speech makes me more approachable and relatable I'm sure.
Thank you.
posted by joost de vries at 10:42 AM on October 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
With all due respect, there are maybe ten or twenty people who I think are responsible for 95% of the fighty in MeFi.
YOU TAKE THAT BACK, YOU FOUL STRUMPET.
(also, no fair on the Who Said That game. I got grumblebee wrong, and it only provided a three line post. I wasn't clicking grumblebee until there was a five paragraph slogfest about something very simple).
posted by norm at 10:50 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
YOU TAKE THAT BACK, YOU FOUL STRUMPET.
(also, no fair on the Who Said That game. I got grumblebee wrong, and it only provided a three line post. I wasn't clicking grumblebee until there was a five paragraph slogfest about something very simple).
posted by norm at 10:50 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
Joist is just trying to learn how to pass undetected among us before beginning operation Orange: take back Niuew Amsterdam
Actually, that doesn't sound half bad. Do we get the pancakes?
posted by The Whelk at 11:09 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
Actually, that doesn't sound half bad. Do we get the pancakes?
posted by The Whelk at 11:09 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
I understand that this question is weird - but I'm really trying to wrap my head around this deletion reason. I mean the dude says he what the problem he's trying to solve is and is super specific.
Asking us to "nam[e] people who know a lot, but still need to yell" is not very specific at all. It's very vague.
What counts as "knowing a lot"? It's not clear what counts as knowing a lot or being highly educated, or how much the people need to actually use these faculties while they're yelling. And it's not clear what "yell" and "crazy" really mean. Do only people who literally yell their opinions on a regular basis count (like Bill O'Reilly)? It seems like an extremely broad "Hey tell me about your favorite person who's nutso yet smart, and I'm not going to bother defining 'nutso' or 'smart.'"
Ask a weird AskMe question, get a weird deletion reason.
posted by John Cohen at 11:14 AM on October 15, 2010
Asking us to "nam[e] people who know a lot, but still need to yell" is not very specific at all. It's very vague.
What counts as "knowing a lot"? It's not clear what counts as knowing a lot or being highly educated, or how much the people need to actually use these faculties while they're yelling. And it's not clear what "yell" and "crazy" really mean. Do only people who literally yell their opinions on a regular basis count (like Bill O'Reilly)? It seems like an extremely broad "Hey tell me about your favorite person who's nutso yet smart, and I'm not going to bother defining 'nutso' or 'smart.'"
Ask a weird AskMe question, get a weird deletion reason.
posted by John Cohen at 11:14 AM on October 15, 2010
I disagree with everything Seth Godin says. I'd do this even if he told me I was right for disagreeing with him.
posted by cjorgensen at 11:16 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by cjorgensen at 11:16 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
Whelk, that reminds me that Agent Orange is the name of a comic book about the late prince regent Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands. The name of the royal family is van Oranje - Nassau you see.
They filled the comic with all the most vile gossip about him. Some of it true I'm sure.
About being a member of the SS, being an aristocratic playboy, marrying our plain crown princess for the money, having fun flying planes during WWII, being dashing in uniforms and fast cars, having illegitimate offspring, being bribed by Lockheed and of course being one of the prime instigators of the Bilderberg group. Dun dun dun!
Indeed I'm infiltrating the most trusted and hallowed circles of metafilter: The Cabal.
Next step: we surreptitiously start digging canals in Manhattan.
posted by joost de vries at 11:23 AM on October 15, 2010
They filled the comic with all the most vile gossip about him. Some of it true I'm sure.
About being a member of the SS, being an aristocratic playboy, marrying our plain crown princess for the money, having fun flying planes during WWII, being dashing in uniforms and fast cars, having illegitimate offspring, being bribed by Lockheed and of course being one of the prime instigators of the Bilderberg group. Dun dun dun!
Indeed I'm infiltrating the most trusted and hallowed circles of metafilter: The Cabal.
Next step: we surreptitiously start digging canals in Manhattan.
posted by joost de vries at 11:23 AM on October 15, 2010
I mean The Kabala.
Madonna is a member as well.
posted by joost de vries at 11:23 AM on October 15, 2010
Madonna is a member as well.
posted by joost de vries at 11:23 AM on October 15, 2010
Indeed; pannekoeken. Although I have to warn you; we fry bacon in a pan and then pour the pancake mixture on top of that. Then we sometimes add cheese on top.
I've seen US neck hairs stand on end at the mere mention of our Dutch pancakes.
posted by joost de vries at 11:27 AM on October 15, 2010
I've seen US neck hairs stand on end at the mere mention of our Dutch pancakes.
posted by joost de vries at 11:27 AM on October 15, 2010
And "dick what thou wilt" shall be the whole of the law.
And harm none. Unless of course, they ask you.
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:29 AM on October 15, 2010
And harm none. Unless of course, they ask you.
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:29 AM on October 15, 2010
operation Orange: take back Niuew Amsterdam
At least we'll have better fútbol.
posted by Mister_A at 11:29 AM on October 15, 2010
At least we'll have better fútbol.
posted by Mister_A at 11:29 AM on October 15, 2010
Those pancakes sound great!
posted by barrett caulk at 11:30 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by barrett caulk at 11:30 AM on October 15, 2010
My neck hairs are standing in ravenous anticipation.
posted by Mister_A at 11:30 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Mister_A at 11:30 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: the maximum grammatical amount of emotive swagger phrases
posted by jokeefe at 11:30 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by jokeefe at 11:30 AM on October 15, 2010
That is so fucked up, The Whelk! Tell me about Wall Street!
posted by Mister_A at 11:33 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by Mister_A at 11:33 AM on October 15, 2010
Even as a child I'd love a spekpannenkoek met kaas. I couldn't get my US girlfriend to try them out though. Even though savoury pancakes are not that unheard of; witness French galettes made of buckwheat flour.
posted by joost de vries at 11:39 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by joost de vries at 11:39 AM on October 15, 2010
Although I have to warn you; we fry bacon in a pan and then pour the pancake mixture on top of that. Then we sometimes add cheese on top.
"I have to warn you: it comes with a free stack of money and you're required to pet this puppy for a few minutes."
Awesome savory pancakes were the highlight of my very brief passing-through visit to Amsterdam.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:41 AM on October 15, 2010 [6 favorites]
"I have to warn you: it comes with a free stack of money and you're required to pet this puppy for a few minutes."
Awesome savory pancakes were the highlight of my very brief passing-through visit to Amsterdam.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:41 AM on October 15, 2010 [6 favorites]
I can't see how this post stays if the other one went.
posted by empath at 11:42 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by empath at 11:42 AM on October 15, 2010
Well it's twelve minutes old, for one thing.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:43 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:43 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
That kicks such much ass welkje!
Tell me about staaten eiland. About Peter Stuyvesant. About Pollepel island and Bannermans castle.
posted by joost de vries at 11:43 AM on October 15, 2010
Tell me about staaten eiland. About Peter Stuyvesant. About Pollepel island and Bannermans castle.
posted by joost de vries at 11:43 AM on October 15, 2010
All I know about Staten Island is that it was always better than it is now.
posted by Mister_A at 11:48 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by Mister_A at 11:48 AM on October 15, 2010
Gotta love the 'french fry' shops in Amsterdam. Best thing after a night out drinking.
posted by ericb at 11:49 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by ericb at 11:49 AM on October 15, 2010
Oh god, those bacon pancakes. I once asked if I could possibly maybe have some apple in them as well.
oh god. I could eat that every morning forever.
Governors island was the home of the colonial governor during English rule. The frusta one sent over was a dodgy debt- ridden aristocrat with the habit of hysterical screaming, raiding the public treasury and dressing in women's clothing and while walking along the city wall all night.
posted by The Whelk at 11:49 AM on October 15, 2010
oh god. I could eat that every morning forever.
Governors island was the home of the colonial governor during English rule. The frusta one sent over was a dodgy debt- ridden aristocrat with the habit of hysterical screaming, raiding the public treasury and dressing in women's clothing and while walking along the city wall all night.
posted by The Whelk at 11:49 AM on October 15, 2010
Strangely enough, "You Rock" is the name of the form on my (not esp hip) employer's intranet for recognizing one's coworkers.*
* Technically, it's "You Rock.DOC" even as a web form, because apparently it used to be an actual Word template.
Also: Mister_A, I've always wanted to make a bumper sticker "Free Tibet/* with the purchase of any China" just because my brain always goes there.
posted by epersonae at 11:50 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
* Technically, it's "You Rock.DOC" even as a web form, because apparently it used to be an actual Word template.
Also: Mister_A, I've always wanted to make a bumper sticker "Free Tibet/* with the purchase of any China" just because my brain always goes there.
posted by epersonae at 11:50 AM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
And we mustn't the great Indonesian food (e.g. rijsttafel) in Amsterdam.
posted by ericb at 11:53 AM on October 15, 2010
posted by ericb at 11:53 AM on October 15, 2010
Yeah I thought you were goin' Dutch there...
I've always wondered from where that phrase came. Wikipedia to the rescue.
posted by ericb at 11:54 AM on October 15, 2010
I've always wondered from where that phrase came. Wikipedia to the rescue.
posted by ericb at 11:54 AM on October 15, 2010
I can't see how this post stays if the other one went.
No comparison. Rhaomi's FPP is a bazillion times clearer, better structured, and with links that make sense*. The problems with kiuless' post went beyond link volume.
*I'm still working through it so maybe it turns to shit near the end, but thus far it has a clear lead link followed by decent supplementals.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:58 AM on October 15, 2010
No comparison. Rhaomi's FPP is a bazillion times clearer, better structured, and with links that make sense*. The problems with kiuless' post went beyond link volume.
*I'm still working through it so maybe it turns to shit near the end, but thus far it has a clear lead link followed by decent supplementals.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:58 AM on October 15, 2010
The new post does a good job of clearly building around the primary, and clearly denoted, article at the center of it, using a few other sources as reference as well but tying them in in a pretty straightforward fashion that avoids some of the pitfalls of linkdumpery.
They're both large posts with pullquotes, certainly. But beyond the first-blush similarities there I don't think we're looking at two of a kind here so much.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:00 PM on October 15, 2010
They're both large posts with pullquotes, certainly. But beyond the first-blush similarities there I don't think we're looking at two of a kind here so much.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:00 PM on October 15, 2010
Having met Mr. de Vries in person, I can tell you all authoritatively that he rocks.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:19 PM on October 15, 2010
posted by Meatbomb at 12:19 PM on October 15, 2010
Ah meatbomb, Loki you! You forgot to add "...like a hurricane".
"Hello. I'm Joost. I am like a hurricane in that I rock." While introducing myself in that way I'll sway to and fro to underscore the point.
And throw up the horns and play air guitar. With a nasal German Akzent.
Thanks to the mefi School Of Cool girls no longer ignore me. I have more friends. And make more money. I'm more fertile and I no longer grow old.
Don't wait. Call now for The Mefi School Of Cool™ .
posted by joost de vries at 12:56 PM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Hello. I'm Joost. I am like a hurricane in that I rock." While introducing myself in that way I'll sway to and fro to underscore the point.
And throw up the horns and play air guitar. With a nasal German Akzent.
Thanks to the mefi School Of Cool girls no longer ignore me. I have more friends. And make more money. I'm more fertile and I no longer grow old.
Don't wait. Call now for The Mefi School Of Cool™ .
posted by joost de vries at 12:56 PM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
There's a place on the street of all antique shops in Amsterdam. Neiuwe Spiegelstratte? I miss their pancakes so bad.
The Dutch do need to learn the value of real maple syrup though. That Siroop stuff is just shite.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:07 PM on October 15, 2010
The Dutch do need to learn the value of real maple syrup though. That Siroop stuff is just shite.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:07 PM on October 15, 2010
> At least we'll have better fútbol.
Dennis Bergkamp!!!!
posted by languagehat at 1:20 PM on October 15, 2010
Dennis Bergkamp!!!!
posted by languagehat at 1:20 PM on October 15, 2010
Maple syrup is rather expensive here and can only be bought at special stores for home sick US Americans.
But I agree that taste is not one of the remarkable characteristics of pannenkoekenstroop. To me as a child the intrigueing quality of the stroop was that the more you'd exert force with the ladle in the stroop, the 'harder' the stroop felt.
posted by joost de vries at 1:22 PM on October 15, 2010
But I agree that taste is not one of the remarkable characteristics of pannenkoekenstroop. To me as a child the intrigueing quality of the stroop was that the more you'd exert force with the ladle in the stroop, the 'harder' the stroop felt.
posted by joost de vries at 1:22 PM on October 15, 2010
I think all this talk of the Netherlands must have encouraged someone to post their favourite bongs to the Blue...
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:28 PM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:28 PM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
I remember being shocked that milkweed showed a James Bond marathon and used original prints, not remasters. Although the one film they didn't show was Diamonds Are Forevewr, I figured it was a copyright thing, the rights for the Bond movies are a total shit storm, but it's also pretty unflattering into the Dutch diamond industry sooo maybe.
It also has the strangest homosexual assasign team ever and a bunch of creepy singing dolls but that is neither here nor there.
The only other thing that happened was I chatted up a cute boy at De Spkyr until we worked out we where actually related.
posted by The Whelk at 3:19 PM on October 15, 2010
It also has the strangest homosexual assasign team ever and a bunch of creepy singing dolls but that is neither here nor there.
The only other thing that happened was I chatted up a cute boy at De Spkyr until we worked out we where actually related.
posted by The Whelk at 3:19 PM on October 15, 2010
In urban areas with multistory buildings when the wind blows it generates circular eddy currents on the lee side of corners. When the wind is sufficient and leaves or trash available the circular motion of the air is easily seen as the leaves, plastic bags, styrofoam cups and paper from many sources rides the gyre. The portmanteau for these occurrences is "basunado" from the Spanish "basura" for trash and, for obvious reasons "tornado".* In cities with a prevailing wind basunadoes (or basunados, cf. tornado) will persist in the same location - San Francisco has a semi-permanent one that is typically strong from early afternoon through mid-evening at 1308 Market Street (Fox Plaza) where Polk, Fell and Market intersect.
*I know this because I made it up.
posted by vapidave at 4:45 PM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
*I know this because I made it up.
posted by vapidave at 4:45 PM on October 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
The Milkweed?!?
So what did you drive your car on here; the speedweed and the highweed?
It's actually De Melkweg which translates to Milky Way.
Yeah, those gay assassins are strange.
posted by joost de vries at 8:50 PM on October 15, 2010
So what did you drive your car on here; the speedweed and the highweed?
It's actually De Melkweg which translates to Milky Way.
Yeah, those gay assassins are strange.
posted by joost de vries at 8:50 PM on October 15, 2010
Driving on the high weed gets you no where but you enjoy the trip.
posted by The Whelk at 11:00 PM on October 15, 2010
posted by The Whelk at 11:00 PM on October 15, 2010
I bought a wool tiw in my clan's tartan.
It's ...so ugly. Pink and yellow. Oh McMillians, what where you thinking.
Tartan and clan crap is the most charming bit of 19th century historical revisionism ever.
posted by The Whelk at 5:59 PM on October 16, 2010
It's ...so ugly. Pink and yellow. Oh McMillians, what where you thinking.
Tartan and clan crap is the most charming bit of 19th century historical revisionism ever.
posted by The Whelk at 5:59 PM on October 16, 2010
shit now I understand the weed my great uncle did as he dressed
posted by flabdablet at 3:10 PM on October 18, 2010
posted by flabdablet at 3:10 PM on October 18, 2010
Now I understand dressing the weed my great uncle shat.
posted by The Whelk at 3:15 PM on October 18, 2010
posted by The Whelk at 3:15 PM on October 18, 2010
dressed the way my great uncle did, i now understand how he shit
posted by found missing at 3:19 PM on October 18, 2010
posted by found missing at 3:19 PM on October 18, 2010
I like the more authentic highland dress myself, which was basically a huge wool toga in cemoflouge colors. Not sure you could go out on the town in it , until uless your beard was at least three feet in length.
posted by The Whelk at 5:19 PM on October 18, 2010
posted by The Whelk at 5:19 PM on October 18, 2010
Not ...unless.
You people only like things with words.
posted by The Whelk at 5:21 PM on October 18, 2010
You people only like things with words.
posted by The Whelk at 5:21 PM on October 18, 2010
Tartan and clan crap is the most charming bit of 19th century historical revisionism ever.
As long as it puts guys in skirts, I don't care WHO came up with the idea, I'm for it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:17 PM on October 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
As long as it puts guys in skirts, I don't care WHO came up with the idea, I'm for it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:17 PM on October 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
If you got about in one in that same hideous clan tartan, would that make you a little off kilter?
posted by flabdablet at 12:15 AM on October 19, 2010
posted by flabdablet at 12:15 AM on October 19, 2010
Oh, wait until the 'Droid tablets start flooding the market, then we'll see, oh yess.....
posted by nomadicink at 3:56 PM on October 14
Right now, Motorola's Droid II is only one penny at Amazon.
posted by Sailormom at 6:45 AM on October 19, 2010
posted by nomadicink at 3:56 PM on October 14
Right now, Motorola's Droid II is only one penny at Amazon.
posted by Sailormom at 6:45 AM on October 19, 2010
Actually it's $529. The $0.01 "price" is just the nominal first payment on a 36 month finance plan.
posted by Mitheral at 7:01 AM on October 19, 2010
posted by Mitheral at 7:01 AM on October 19, 2010
You guys barock.
posted by joost de vries at 12:06 PM on October 24, 2010
posted by joost de vries at 12:06 PM on October 24, 2010
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posted by Chocolate Pickle at 11:22 AM on October 14, 2010 [3 favorites]