Just say no to multiple paragraphs April 11, 2011 8:24 AM Subscribe
I think using multiple paragraphs on the front page clutters it up and makes it more difficult to instantly identify the end of one post and the beginning of another. For example. This is why [more inside] exists, no?
I also agree, as I'm sure most folks in MetaTalk will. Do you have a suggestion for what should be done about it?
posted by alms at 8:29 AM on April 11, 2011
posted by alms at 8:29 AM on April 11, 2011
I think those kinds of post are getting increasingly rare, so when they do show up, they can confuse where they used to be a more often occurrence. That said, I'm on the fence whether we should block the line break <br> tags.
Sometimes they make sense, like in a post about poetry that needs a stanza (maybe just two in a row could be blocked)
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:29 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Sometimes they make sense, like in a post about poetry that needs a stanza (maybe just two in a row could be blocked)
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:29 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'll take that over the cryptic posts that require you to click through to figure out what they're about.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:33 AM on April 11, 2011 [12 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:33 AM on April 11, 2011 [12 favorites]
I think this is the way all "I don't like this thing" MeTa posts should be framed. You state your opinion and walk away. No insistence on a technological solution. No proposed moratorium (which inevitably invites meta-moritoria). No name-calling or mud-throwing. I agree with your opinion, and I also agree with your plan of action: frowning upon it and nothing else.
posted by Plutor at 8:35 AM on April 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by Plutor at 8:35 AM on April 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
I would love to have subtle lines between posts. Matt, I'm not sure what you mean by "blocked" - are you talking about adding more space between posts? I think the spacing is OK, but a visual cue would be great.
posted by desjardins at 8:36 AM on April 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 8:36 AM on April 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
If someone really needs to include poetry or lyrics in a post, I'd be fine with giving them two choices: put it after the break, or put it on one line with slashes.
If you can just disallow the use of two line breaks in a row, that sounds good too.
I'm in favor of making the one-paragraph-above-the-fold style an absolute, locked-in requirement. Otherwise, there are always going to be some people who don't read MeTa or the FAQ, and go ahead and use line breaks before the jump because they can.
posted by John Cohen at 8:38 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you can just disallow the use of two line breaks in a row, that sounds good too.
I'm in favor of making the one-paragraph-above-the-fold style an absolute, locked-in requirement. Otherwise, there are always going to be some people who don't read MeTa or the FAQ, and go ahead and use line breaks before the jump because they can.
posted by John Cohen at 8:38 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Cryptic or verbose, the front page should (and does) welcome all posting styles.
posted by crunchland at 8:38 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by crunchland at 8:38 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Except posting styles that use more than one paragraph on the front page for a single post.
posted by John Cohen at 8:42 AM on April 11, 2011
posted by John Cohen at 8:42 AM on April 11, 2011
maybe just two in a row could be blocked
That seems like a nearly perfect solution.
posted by enn at 8:44 AM on April 11, 2011
That seems like a nearly perfect solution.
posted by enn at 8:44 AM on April 11, 2011
John Cohen: "I'm in favor of making the one-paragraph-above-the-fold style an absolute, locked-in requirement. "
There is a way around it.
That said, I don't do it often because it would probably annoy people.
posted by zarq at 8:44 AM on April 11, 2011
There is a way around it.
That said, I don't do it often because it would probably annoy people.
posted by zarq at 8:44 AM on April 11, 2011
As someone who has made a poetry post, I like the "discouraged but available" option on this. But I agree generally speaking above-the-fold paragraphs are sort of wonky and in extreme cases we'll tuck them inside.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:46 AM on April 11, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:46 AM on April 11, 2011
Wow, I need more coffee.
posted by desjardins at 8:46 AM on April 11, 2011
posted by desjardins at 8:46 AM on April 11, 2011
We should have freedom to post with line breaks rather than freedom from seeing them on the front page. Since this is a relatively rare occurrence as it is, permissiveness seems unlikely to lead to formatting chaos on the Blue, and it preserves some expressive layout options for those people who occasionally want to do interesting things with post formatting.
Of course, I feel the same way about the img tag, and that dog stopped hunting a long time ago.
posted by killdevil at 8:47 AM on April 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Of course, I feel the same way about the img tag, and that dog stopped hunting a long time ago.
posted by killdevil at 8:47 AM on April 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
> I would love to have subtle lines between posts.
Me too. But for now, if you're using Firefox or Opera (perhaps other browers too) it's not too hard to add your own bits of CSS to style MeFi to get that visual cue.
posted by bjrn at 8:48 AM on April 11, 2011
Me too. But for now, if you're using Firefox or Opera (perhaps other browers too) it's not too hard to add your own bits of CSS to style MeFi to get that visual cue.
posted by bjrn at 8:48 AM on April 11, 2011
John Cohen: " What do you mean?"
Those quote graphs were created with the blockquote tag, not line breaks.
So unless the mods prevented that tag from working in posts, we'd still be able to create a separate paragraph without using line breaks.
posted by zarq at 8:49 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Those quote graphs were created with the blockquote tag, not line breaks.
So unless the mods prevented that tag from working in posts, we'd still be able to create a separate paragraph without using line breaks.
posted by zarq at 8:49 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm uh... not advocating that, by the way. :)
posted by zarq at 8:50 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by zarq at 8:50 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
We should have freedom to post with line breaks rather than freedom from seeing them on the front page.
I don't want posters have to maximum "freedom." There are many aspects of the site that are less "free" than they could be. You can't choose your own font or embed images or make a song start playing when someone clicks on your post. This isn't MySpace, and I think that's a good thing.
posted by John Cohen at 8:50 AM on April 11, 2011
I don't want posters have to maximum "freedom." There are many aspects of the site that are less "free" than they could be. You can't choose your own font or embed images or make a song start playing when someone clicks on your post. This isn't MySpace, and I think that's a good thing.
posted by John Cohen at 8:50 AM on April 11, 2011
So you're one one those authoritarian types, eh?
posted by crunchland at 8:52 AM on April 11, 2011
posted by crunchland at 8:52 AM on April 11, 2011
Yes.
posted by John Cohen at 8:53 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by John Cohen at 8:53 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I agree, this can be confusing. What if, instead of relying on spaces between posts as visual indicators, Metafilter added a line between each post. Then this multiple-paragraph-above-the-more-inside-thing would no longer be a problem. Thanks desjardins for bringing this up.
posted by Daddy-O at 8:53 AM on April 11, 2011
posted by Daddy-O at 8:53 AM on April 11, 2011
John Cohen: " What do you mean?"
Those quote graphs were created with the blockquote tag, not line breaks.
So unless the mods prevented that tag from working in posts, we'd still be able to create a separate paragraph without using line breaks.
Oh, I see. But typing out the "blockquote" HTML requires a lot more work than just hitting return, so it would happen far less often.
I don't think most people who use line breaks above the fold are so attached to this formatting that if you prevented it they'd turn to blockquotes as a workaround. I think they're just hitting enter without noticing that this isn't the norm on the front page.
posted by John Cohen at 8:54 AM on April 11, 2011
Those quote graphs were created with the blockquote tag, not line breaks.
So unless the mods prevented that tag from working in posts, we'd still be able to create a separate paragraph without using line breaks.
Oh, I see. But typing out the "blockquote" HTML requires a lot more work than just hitting return, so it would happen far less often.
I don't think most people who use line breaks above the fold are so attached to this formatting that if you prevented it they'd turn to blockquotes as a workaround. I think they're just hitting enter without noticing that this isn't the norm on the front page.
posted by John Cohen at 8:54 AM on April 11, 2011
What if, instead of relying on spaces between posts as visual indicators, Metafilter added a line between each post.
Sacrilege!
posted by killdevil at 8:55 AM on April 11, 2011
Sacrilege!
posted by killdevil at 8:55 AM on April 11, 2011
Okay, this is nothing finished but this is how my mefi looks right now (obviously not just for the post start/end visual cue). Still, some little line or similar between posts might be nice for the actual stylesheet.
posted by bjrn at 8:56 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by bjrn at 8:56 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
John Cohen: "Oh, I see. But typing out the "blockquote" HTML requires a lot more work than just hitting return, so it would happen far less often.
I don't think most people who use line breaks above the fold are so attached to this formatting that if you prevented it they'd turn to blockquotes as a workaround. I think they're just hitting enter without noticing that this isn't the norm on the front page."
Yep. You're probably right.
Jessamyn, I don't know why, but I have this vague memory of not being able to add line breaks to posts on the front page. Was that ever the norm?
posted by zarq at 8:58 AM on April 11, 2011
I don't think most people who use line breaks above the fold are so attached to this formatting that if you prevented it they'd turn to blockquotes as a workaround. I think they're just hitting enter without noticing that this isn't the norm on the front page."
Yep. You're probably right.
Jessamyn, I don't know why, but I have this vague memory of not being able to add line breaks to posts on the front page. Was that ever the norm?
posted by zarq at 8:58 AM on April 11, 2011
I don't think most people who use line breaks above the fold are so attached to this formatting that if you prevented it they'd turn to blockquotes as a workaround. I think they're just hitting enter without noticing that this isn't the norm on the front page.
Unlike comments and the "more inside" area, we don't automatically convert line breaks to HTML breaks above the fold. People have to type in: <br> to get a break. So it does take some effort now.
posted by pb (staff) at 8:58 AM on April 11, 2011
Unlike comments and the "more inside" area, we don't automatically convert line breaks to HTML breaks above the fold. People have to type in: <br> to get a break. So it does take some effort now.
posted by pb (staff) at 8:58 AM on April 11, 2011
Unlike comments and the "more inside" area, we don't automatically convert line breaks to HTML breaks above the fold. People have to type in:
to get a break. So it does take some effort now.
Oh, I didn't know that. I stand corrected (though I still don't think people are so desperate to have line breaks above the fold that they'll use block quotes to accomplish this).
posted by John Cohen at 9:00 AM on April 11, 2011
to get a break. So it does take some effort now.
Oh, I didn't know that. I stand corrected (though I still don't think people are so desperate to have line breaks above the fold that they'll use block quotes to accomplish this).
posted by John Cohen at 9:00 AM on April 11, 2011
Matt, I'm not sure what you mean by "blocked"
I mean literally blocked, as in we could filter out all br tags making this kind of post impossible. Lots of other sites do this, you'll never see a paragraph break on digg or reddit's front pages.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:14 AM on April 11, 2011
I mean literally blocked, as in we could filter out all br tags making this kind of post impossible. Lots of other sites do this, you'll never see a paragraph break on digg or reddit's front pages.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:14 AM on April 11, 2011
I've wondered about filtering br tags before too; I'm with Jessamyn on this, that I'd rather have them around for the odd one-off posts where it helps but would prefer that people continue to mostly refrain from using them.
I haven't felt like multi-para posts have been getting out of hand or anything so I'm not super into taking any action on it other than having the perennial discussion here that we're having now and hoping people keep it in mind, and, yeah, we'll keep tucking the silly ones under the fold when we can.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:19 AM on April 11, 2011
I haven't felt like multi-para posts have been getting out of hand or anything so I'm not super into taking any action on it other than having the perennial discussion here that we're having now and hoping people keep it in mind, and, yeah, we'll keep tucking the silly ones under the fold when we can.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:19 AM on April 11, 2011
I mean literally blocked, as in we could filter out all br tags making this kind of post impossible.
Yeah, I had my mind on CSS attributes. I'll come back when I'm awake.
posted by desjardins at 9:22 AM on April 11, 2011
Yeah, I had my mind on CSS attributes. I'll come back when I'm awake.
posted by desjardins at 9:22 AM on April 11, 2011
Underlying problem: essays masquerading as posts.
posted by Wolfdog at 9:23 AM on April 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Wolfdog at 9:23 AM on April 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
I want to steal bjrn's CSS.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:23 AM on April 11, 2011
posted by shakespeherian at 9:23 AM on April 11, 2011
That's very kind of you, but it's really broken in many places. This is a style I started on a year or so ago, but styling a whole site like Metafilter (with all its sub sites, all with their own little quirks) is a lot of work, and I'm lazy. So what happened was: I started, and dropped it. I rediscovered the files a few weeks ago, and now I'm tinkering with it again. If I ever get it to a state where it's not obviously broken anywhere I'll be sure to post it here, but don't hold your breath.
posted by bjrn at 9:29 AM on April 11, 2011
posted by bjrn at 9:29 AM on April 11, 2011
*inhales deeply, holds*
posted by shakespeherian at 9:33 AM on April 11, 2011
posted by shakespeherian at 9:33 AM on April 11, 2011
I'd say freedom to trumps freedom from, unless this is some sort of rampant problem for the mods and case-by-case fixing is too much work. It doesn't seem like it comes up that often, in reality. Serial abusers should be dealt with "in the usual way."
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:37 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:37 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've done a couple posts where I called out specific items from a larger site as a way of giving examples or highlights of the content within. I think they would parse much more poorly if I couldn't put each item on its own line with a br tag. Obviously, in these cases I try to be careful not to put so many of them as to take up a huge chunk of real estate. Also, there aren't any blank lines in the post so you aren't likely to be confused about whether it's more than one post. I guess that would be a reason for perhaps blocking two consecutive br tags, while allowing single ones.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:03 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:03 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I like big posts and I cannot lie
You other mefites can't deny
That when a post walks in with no itty bitty space
And a paragraph in your face
You get sprung, wanna post a rebuff
'Cos you notice that that post was stuffed
With data it is exploding
I'm hooked and can't stop reloading
So desjardins says you're fat
Well I ain't down with that
'Cos the text ain't small and your links are kicking
And I'm getting busy clicking...
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:08 AM on April 11, 2011 [20 favorites]
You other mefites can't deny
That when a post walks in with no itty bitty space
And a paragraph in your face
You get sprung, wanna post a rebuff
'Cos you notice that that post was stuffed
With data it is exploding
I'm hooked and can't stop reloading
So desjardins says you're fat
Well I ain't down with that
'Cos the text ain't small and your links are kicking
And I'm getting busy clicking...
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:08 AM on April 11, 2011 [20 favorites]
Wow, I need more coffee.
FWIW, I've had plenty of coffee and I don't like multiple paragraphs before the [more inside] either.
posted by amyms at 10:16 AM on April 11, 2011
FWIW, I've had plenty of coffee and I don't like multiple paragraphs before the [more inside] either.
posted by amyms at 10:16 AM on April 11, 2011
Underlying problem: essays masquerading as posts.
I think this can be part of the problem. Definitely not in all cases, but in some we've seen situations where the OP makes a post with just a few links into this huge wall-of-text by selectively quoting at length from the linked documents. I know this is a point on which reasonable people may disagree, but I find in many cases, this detracts from the post either by adding a level of plausibly deniable editorializing which I think isn't useful, or coralling the discussion at the gate, or just making it so long that people won't read any of it.
If it's supposed to be the links that carry a post I feel like people either need to trust the users to read and extract the salient points and discuss what they feel like, or maybe consider making that sort of post elsewhere.
There are a ton of great multi-link posts that use the posting space to create a narrative or otherwise explain a topic that may be abstruse and I think that sort of thing, personally, is fine. And again, I don't expect people to all agree with me or have this be some part of a "the mods say this" policy discussion, but giant posts are really outliers in terms of what posts on MeFi generally look like and it's worth thinking about why that may be true.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:00 AM on April 11, 2011
I think this can be part of the problem. Definitely not in all cases, but in some we've seen situations where the OP makes a post with just a few links into this huge wall-of-text by selectively quoting at length from the linked documents. I know this is a point on which reasonable people may disagree, but I find in many cases, this detracts from the post either by adding a level of plausibly deniable editorializing which I think isn't useful, or coralling the discussion at the gate, or just making it so long that people won't read any of it.
If it's supposed to be the links that carry a post I feel like people either need to trust the users to read and extract the salient points and discuss what they feel like, or maybe consider making that sort of post elsewhere.
There are a ton of great multi-link posts that use the posting space to create a narrative or otherwise explain a topic that may be abstruse and I think that sort of thing, personally, is fine. And again, I don't expect people to all agree with me or have this be some part of a "the mods say this" policy discussion, but giant posts are really outliers in terms of what posts on MeFi generally look like and it's worth thinking about why that may be true.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:00 AM on April 11, 2011
I vote we leave everything as is on the site itself, but Matt contracts a mysterious team of darkly dressed international killers to deal with the problem on a more, let's say, personal level.
posted by ODiV at 11:01 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by ODiV at 11:01 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I feel like we need some WWI style ads for this, instead of hard coding anything. "RESPECT THE FRONT PAGE". "LOOSE WRITES SINK SITES". "What are you doing to HELP?"
posted by cashman at 11:14 AM on April 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by cashman at 11:14 AM on April 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
I have managed 2.5 years of posting at Metafilter without needing a line break on the front page. But there was one instance where it would've been useful. I can't remember the specifics now but I think it involved separating a quote that was a great hook from a bunch of context that, if it didn't appear on the front page, would've rendered the quote entirely confusing (as opposed to alluringly mysterious). In the end, I just organized the whole thing differently (and am certain to this day that it cost me at least 7 favorites).
So yeah, I can see an argument for NOT getting all authoritarian about this. But no, General, Sir -- I will not die for this hill.
posted by philip-random at 11:21 AM on April 11, 2011
So yeah, I can see an argument for NOT getting all authoritarian about this. But no, General, Sir -- I will not die for this hill.
posted by philip-random at 11:21 AM on April 11, 2011
a mysterious team of darkly dressed international killers...
As I said - in the usual way.
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:40 AM on April 11, 2011
As I said - in the usual way.
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:40 AM on April 11, 2011
How about setting up FPPs in The Blue like OP comments in The Green - put that little thin div next to each FPP to group it visually. It's a visual solution that people seem to be mostly content with on AskMeFi to identify OP comments, why not repurpose it to the front page to 'group' an FPP that someone has put a line break in?
posted by the painkiller at 12:13 PM on April 11, 2011
posted by the painkiller at 12:13 PM on April 11, 2011
I'm actually pretty happy with the status-quo. How often is this an issue, and how big of a deal is it ever when it does present itself?
posted by codacorolla at 12:15 PM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by codacorolla at 12:15 PM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
As long as we're talking about FPP length, what are the guidelines on the size of a post *without* any line breaks? I've taken to posting in single lengthy paragraphs, both because it's an interesting challenge to distill a subject into one block that flows well and because I sometimes find it a little awkward to transition into the [more inside]. There does seem to be a limit -- my post on the Digg redesign got most of the text moved below the fold -- but then again stuff like my Toy Story/Pixar post survived despite being only a line or so shorter.
I ask just because it's hard for me to judge what might be too long with a simple spot-check -- I have a widescreen laptop, for one, and the preview page doesn't include the sidebar, which can make a post seem shorter than it will be on the front page. Settings for font size and typeface and the YouTube video button can affect this, too. Reviewing recent posts, I seem to have settled on around seven lines per post (as seen on this page, without a sidebar), but it's a hard thing to guarantee. It would help, IMHO, if the preview page accounted for the space taken up by the sidebar (by adding an equivalent margin to that side of the page) and if it displayed the YouTube button, which can add a lot of space to video-heavy posts.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:17 PM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I ask just because it's hard for me to judge what might be too long with a simple spot-check -- I have a widescreen laptop, for one, and the preview page doesn't include the sidebar, which can make a post seem shorter than it will be on the front page. Settings for font size and typeface and the YouTube video button can affect this, too. Reviewing recent posts, I seem to have settled on around seven lines per post (as seen on this page, without a sidebar), but it's a hard thing to guarantee. It would help, IMHO, if the preview page accounted for the space taken up by the sidebar (by adding an equivalent margin to that side of the page) and if it displayed the YouTube button, which can add a lot of space to video-heavy posts.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:17 PM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Guidelines are basically "try to keep it on the not-so-big side". We don't have any explicit metric, it's more of a call based on the intersection of "how notably Too Big is this post" and "how easy is it to push it below the fold without creating a really weird cut-off point".
I'd say your Pixar post was definitely in the Too Big territory above the fold, but people didn't seem to react badly to the size in terms of flagging and I didn't take a close look at it, so, eh. If I saw it right now I'd probably trim it at the "But".
Generally speaking, four or five lines tall on a reasonably sized browser window is probably about where the typewriter carriage should go DING. You can go longer than that, but I think it be best if people generally didn't because it gets into glazed-eyes wall-of-text territory.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:36 PM on April 11, 2011
I'd say your Pixar post was definitely in the Too Big territory above the fold, but people didn't seem to react badly to the size in terms of flagging and I didn't take a close look at it, so, eh. If I saw it right now I'd probably trim it at the "But".
Generally speaking, four or five lines tall on a reasonably sized browser window is probably about where the typewriter carriage should go DING. You can go longer than that, but I think it be best if people generally didn't because it gets into glazed-eyes wall-of-text territory.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:36 PM on April 11, 2011
I'd agree that multi-paragraph posts are often confusing because one expects each front page paragraph has distinct a thought.
In this case, all three news items deal with political corruption and regulatory capture in copyright enforcement, meaning their discussions could be consolidated. Yet, they didn't naturally fit into any hierarchy. I therefore phrased each paragraph to parse correctly if read as separate posts.
In hindsight, I could've been more artful by say posting the following quote, hyperlinking various words to the main articles, and explaining each item in a separate paragraph in the [more inside].
Nineteen years is the term beyond which neither the representatives of a nation, nor even the whole nation itself assembled, can validly extend a debt... This principle that the earth belongs to the living, and not to the dead, is of very extensive application. -- Thomas Jefferson
Err well, maybe not that particular quote, given the post was mostly about Europe, but still.
Ironically, Ironmouth shat all over the unified discussion largely because he objected to the unifying. <shrug>
posted by jeffburdges at 3:09 PM on April 11, 2011
In this case, all three news items deal with political corruption and regulatory capture in copyright enforcement, meaning their discussions could be consolidated. Yet, they didn't naturally fit into any hierarchy. I therefore phrased each paragraph to parse correctly if read as separate posts.
In hindsight, I could've been more artful by say posting the following quote, hyperlinking various words to the main articles, and explaining each item in a separate paragraph in the [more inside].
Nineteen years is the term beyond which neither the representatives of a nation, nor even the whole nation itself assembled, can validly extend a debt... This principle that the earth belongs to the living, and not to the dead, is of very extensive application. -- Thomas Jefferson
Err well, maybe not that particular quote, given the post was mostly about Europe, but still.
Ironically, Ironmouth shat all over the unified discussion largely because he objected to the unifying. <shrug>
posted by jeffburdges at 3:09 PM on April 11, 2011
I seem to have settled on around seven lines per post (as seen on this page, without a sidebar), but it's a hard thing to guarantee.
I always worry that walls of text will turn readers away.
Lately I've been trying to place two to four lines above the fold, and the bulk of the post underneath. I've also cut back on how many links I put at the top.
I honestly have no idea whether it's making them more readable. Comment counts on my posts tend to vary wildly and it's kinda hard to draw any hard and fast conclusions about framing from that.
But I hope I'm making them a little more accessible.
posted by zarq at 3:56 PM on April 11, 2011
I always worry that walls of text will turn readers away.
Lately I've been trying to place two to four lines above the fold, and the bulk of the post underneath. I've also cut back on how many links I put at the top.
I honestly have no idea whether it's making them more readable. Comment counts on my posts tend to vary wildly and it's kinda hard to draw any hard and fast conclusions about framing from that.
But I hope I'm making them a little more accessible.
posted by zarq at 3:56 PM on April 11, 2011
ChurchHatesTucker writes "I'll take that over the cryptic posts that require you to click through to figure out what they're about."
Luckily this isn't an either/or situation. There is plenty of middle ground between mystery meat and a five minute essay on a topic.
zarq writes "So unless the mods prevented that tag from working in posts, we'd still be able to create a separate paragraph without using line breaks."
Any trick someone can figure out to include line breaks or pseudo line breaks could easily be cleaned by a mod.
Daddy-O writes "What if, instead of relying on spaces between posts as visual indicators, Metafilter added a line between each post. Then this multiple-paragraph-above-the-more-inside-thing would no longer be a problem."
I'd love it if each post was designated by a subtle change in back ground colour. Kind of like how best answers are highlighted now but with much less difference in colour. Or maybe a vertical bar of alternating colours next to each post the way OP comments in Ask are highlighted. As it is, now that I'm not at liberty to compulsively load the front page, I find it quite easy to miss a single sentence post if it is either book ended by larger posts or is a series of very short posts when I am catching up.
posted by Mitheral at 4:29 PM on April 11, 2011
Luckily this isn't an either/or situation. There is plenty of middle ground between mystery meat and a five minute essay on a topic.
zarq writes "So unless the mods prevented that tag from working in posts, we'd still be able to create a separate paragraph without using line breaks."
Any trick someone can figure out to include line breaks or pseudo line breaks could easily be cleaned by a mod.
Daddy-O writes "What if, instead of relying on spaces between posts as visual indicators, Metafilter added a line between each post. Then this multiple-paragraph-above-the-more-inside-thing would no longer be a problem."
I'd love it if each post was designated by a subtle change in back ground colour. Kind of like how best answers are highlighted now but with much less difference in colour. Or maybe a vertical bar of alternating colours next to each post the way OP comments in Ask are highlighted. As it is, now that I'm not at liberty to compulsively load the front page, I find it quite easy to miss a single sentence post if it is either book ended by larger posts or is a series of very short posts when I am catching up.
posted by Mitheral at 4:29 PM on April 11, 2011
I would love to have subtle lines between posts.
God, no. Having to actually read the page to use the site is a feature, not a bug. I sometimes get confused by long, multi-paragraph posts (although they are not frequent anyway, plus I acknowledge that I'm easily confused), but this is not often enough to consider anything broken.
posted by dg at 4:45 PM on April 11, 2011
God, no. Having to actually read the page to use the site is a feature, not a bug. I sometimes get confused by long, multi-paragraph posts (although they are not frequent anyway, plus I acknowledge that I'm easily confused), but this is not often enough to consider anything broken.
posted by dg at 4:45 PM on April 11, 2011
I just want to say that without being able to use the Break tag, this post would have been a lot harder to put together. NO, using slashes to separate clauses on a single line would NOT have been just as good! It's a matter of principle.
otoh perhaps a post that includes the phrase "an impromptu skull C-section with a shovel" is not the strongest peg on which to hang this argument
posted by KathrynT at 4:50 PM on April 11, 2011
otoh perhaps a post that includes the phrase "an impromptu skull C-section with a shovel" is not the strongest peg on which to hang this argument
posted by KathrynT at 4:50 PM on April 11, 2011
Is there an attribute to set the phase on a
posted by Wolfdog at 4:55 PM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
<blink> tag? If so, we could wrap all posts in <blink>, but put them alternately 180 degrees out of phase. If not, then HTML has a glaring problem that needs to be fixed. Either way.posted by Wolfdog at 4:55 PM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think it's good to allow multiple paragraphs. If the issue is posts running together, use some CSS shading for alternating posts or something like that. Or just read more carefully.
posted by Eideteker at 6:08 PM on April 11, 2011
posted by Eideteker at 6:08 PM on April 11, 2011
I just published Mefi Post Differentiator over on userstyles.org that will give each post on the front page of nearly all of the subsites it's own little visual differentiator to help with people who are having trouble with the way the pages scan. It works with Stylish, which is available for Firefox or Chrome. Here's a screenshot of what the front page looks like with it installed.
posted by crunchland at 6:58 PM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by crunchland at 6:58 PM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
crunchland, that's amazing! you have 8972 unread emails?
(srsly, thanks for the user stylesheet)
posted by desjardins at 7:38 PM on April 11, 2011
(srsly, thanks for the user stylesheet)
posted by desjardins at 7:38 PM on April 11, 2011
I don't find this to be a problem, and I'd rather keep the breaks for the odd time that they actually turn out to be necessary.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:31 PM on April 11, 2011
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:31 PM on April 11, 2011
I just published Mefi Post Differentiator over on userstyles.org
Oh nice, I'll add it to the wiki.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:38 PM on April 11, 2011
Oh nice, I'll add it to the wiki.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:38 PM on April 11, 2011
Yeah, maybe not so fast. Because the site uses the same style name ("copy") in all different places, not just surrounding each post on the front page, my userscript style effects things other than just the front page. I managed to catch a couple of the places, but because the new inline thread update indicator also uses the class, it breaks it -- not when a new comment is added to the thread, but when you press it to see the new comments. The indicator doesn't go away again. I'll try to figure out a way around that tomorrow.
posted by crunchland at 12:07 AM on April 12, 2011
posted by crunchland at 12:07 AM on April 12, 2011
Ok. Figured it out. Now the 'new comments' thing works the way it ought to, and a lot of the extraneous artifacts around the site seem to be gone but the boxes around the posts on the front pages all seem to be there. If you installed this user script, please update it. And unless someone sends me a mefimail with another bug, I'll try not to tinker with it any more.
posted by crunchland at 6:06 AM on April 12, 2011
posted by crunchland at 6:06 AM on April 12, 2011
I would just like to say that I appreciate paragraphs. I love them, actually. I'm glad to have been pointed in their direction.
I don't like it when people call for blanket rules on here. Some things are annoying, that is for sure, but sometimes something needs to be said in a way that subverts the norm and it's really damned interesting.
You say, things must be like THIS and that way we'll avoid annoying things. I say, let's see what people are capable of presenting in whichever way they choose and then let them know afterwards, either through flags or meta threads, what we think of it and take it from there.
Don't you trust the mods to recognise shitty, annoying posts that are just paragraphing for the hell of it with no real content?
I love the fact that Metafilter has very few hard and fast rules. A post lives or dies depending on its relevance and then we get to choose if we'll comment or not but we don't get to choose if it should stay on the front page simply because it's presented in a way that's not aesthetically pleasing, which is the most subjective of things anyway!
posted by h00py at 7:15 AM on April 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't like it when people call for blanket rules on here. Some things are annoying, that is for sure, but sometimes something needs to be said in a way that subverts the norm and it's really damned interesting.
You say, things must be like THIS and that way we'll avoid annoying things. I say, let's see what people are capable of presenting in whichever way they choose and then let them know afterwards, either through flags or meta threads, what we think of it and take it from there.
Don't you trust the mods to recognise shitty, annoying posts that are just paragraphing for the hell of it with no real content?
I love the fact that Metafilter has very few hard and fast rules. A post lives or dies depending on its relevance and then we get to choose if we'll comment or not but we don't get to choose if it should stay on the front page simply because it's presented in a way that's not aesthetically pleasing, which is the most subjective of things anyway!
posted by h00py at 7:15 AM on April 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
How about having MetaFilter use actual paragraph elements in its markup? Then we could have a reasonable discussion. (MeFi actually uses broken and nonsemantic
Wait – that’s part of the unchangeable elemental charm of MeFi, isn’t it? And changing that would be selling out, like that time mathowie commissioned a graphic designer to redesign the site?
I would like MetaFilter to have better HTML and CSS quality, but every time I mention it all I get is excuses, especially from pb.
posted by joeclark at 8:58 AM on April 14, 2011
BR BR between grafs.)Wait – that’s part of the unchangeable elemental charm of MeFi, isn’t it? And changing that would be selling out, like that time mathowie commissioned a graphic designer to redesign the site?
I would like MetaFilter to have better HTML and CSS quality, but every time I mention it all I get is excuses, especially from pb.
posted by joeclark at 8:58 AM on April 14, 2011
Life is especially hard for joeclark.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:08 AM on April 14, 2011
posted by shakespeherian at 9:08 AM on April 14, 2011
Your approach is very frustrating, joeclark. You attack without adding anything. Please make your case without personal attacks. How would more perfect markup solve the issue at hand?
posted by pb (staff) at 9:28 AM on April 14, 2011
posted by pb (staff) at 9:28 AM on April 14, 2011
I would like MetaFilter to have better HTML and CSS quality, but every time I mention it all I get is excuses, especially from pb.
There is a difference between an excuse and a reason. I'm not sure if we haven't set your expectations correctly or if we've correctly set expectations and you reject them. In either case, please come back to the table with constructive suggestions and don't just snipe in MetaTalk.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:36 AM on April 14, 2011
There is a difference between an excuse and a reason. I'm not sure if we haven't set your expectations correctly or if we've correctly set expectations and you reject them. In either case, please come back to the table with constructive suggestions and don't just snipe in MetaTalk.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:36 AM on April 14, 2011
WTF joeclark?
I'm curious, considering <br> has the advantage of being easy for the users and non exploitable for the site, what markup would you use if you were able to make a multiparagraph post?
posted by Mitheral at 9:41 AM on April 14, 2011
I'm curious, considering <br> has the advantage of being easy for the users and non exploitable for the site, what markup would you use if you were able to make a multiparagraph post?
posted by Mitheral at 9:41 AM on April 14, 2011
Well, joe does have a point, even if he's being fighty.
I ran into issues with my user style sheet when I realized that the same css id for each post on the front page ("copy") was used all over the site for things you wouldn't expect. (Like the horizontal bars on the user pages, of all things, and in the memail menus.) It would have been helpful if there were a specific ID for each item on the front page, even if it wasn't used in your internal stylesheets, but specifically added for third-party or user stylesheets.
But I imagine that the number of people who would actually take advantage of it wouldn't really warrant the time and energy you'd have to put into it to implement it.
posted by crunchland at 9:43 AM on April 14, 2011
I ran into issues with my user style sheet when I realized that the same css id for each post on the front page ("copy") was used all over the site for things you wouldn't expect. (Like the horizontal bars on the user pages, of all things, and in the memail menus.) It would have been helpful if there were a specific ID for each item on the front page, even if it wasn't used in your internal stylesheets, but specifically added for third-party or user stylesheets.
But I imagine that the number of people who would actually take advantage of it wouldn't really warrant the time and energy you'd have to put into it to implement it.
posted by crunchland at 9:43 AM on April 14, 2011
Technically
posted by pb (staff) at 9:48 AM on April 14, 2011
copy is a class, not an ID. It tells the browser the text within should look a certain way, it doesn't describe the content in any way. That's why it's used across the site in numerous contexts.posted by pb (staff) at 9:48 AM on April 14, 2011
Yes, ok, pb. Thanks for that correction. My point remains. If you were to add some markup to allow people more control over stuff like this, it would be helpful.
posted by crunchland at 9:51 AM on April 14, 2011
posted by crunchland at 9:51 AM on April 14, 2011
Yeah, I think we can do that. I just added the class
posted by pb (staff) at 10:29 AM on April 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
post to posts at MeFi, and byline to the "posted by..." line across the front pages. That should help when you're writing a custom stylesheet.posted by pb (staff) at 10:29 AM on April 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Actually, it does, a lot. I just updated my stylesheet on userstyles.org and it works great now, thanks!
I bet plutor could give you more ideas for other places where a specific name tag would be useful.
posted by crunchland at 11:01 AM on April 14, 2011
I bet plutor could give you more ideas for other places where a specific name tag would be useful.
posted by crunchland at 11:01 AM on April 14, 2011
Yeah,
I'll get
posted by pb (staff) at 11:17 AM on April 14, 2011
post might be all we need. With that there you can get the byline fairly easily with div.post .smallcopy if you need to.I'll get
post added to more of the subpages later today.posted by pb (staff) at 11:17 AM on April 14, 2011
Pointing out that paragraphs are not in fact to be separated by
“I don’t like your attitude” is not the same as “You’ve got your facts wrong” or “No, actually, we did not make a mistake.” I don’t have my facts wrong and MeFi’s markup is substandard.
It is nonsense to imagine that your underlying template cannot be altered. Or, even if it is impossible, new templates don’t have to be equally broken: We also had this discussion when the IRL subsite was being put together, and you charged on ahead with nonsemantic HTML. So it’s a recurring problem.
I find this particularly galling because hasn’t mathowie spent time with Zeldman and the other standardistas at important events like SXSW? Why have lessons not been learned?
I have had nothing but trouble from pb especially when reporting HTML and CSS bugs.
posted by joeclark at 6:02 AM on April 21, 2011
BR BR but are delimited by P is a constructive suggestion in that such has been articulated in the HTML specification since it was first published. “I don’t like your attitude” is not the same as “You’ve got your facts wrong” or “No, actually, we did not make a mistake.” I don’t have my facts wrong and MeFi’s markup is substandard.
It is nonsense to imagine that your underlying template cannot be altered. Or, even if it is impossible, new templates don’t have to be equally broken: We also had this discussion when the IRL subsite was being put together, and you charged on ahead with nonsemantic HTML. So it’s a recurring problem.
I find this particularly galling because hasn’t mathowie spent time with Zeldman and the other standardistas at important events like SXSW? Why have lessons not been learned?
I have had nothing but trouble from pb especially when reporting HTML and CSS bugs.
posted by joeclark at 6:02 AM on April 21, 2011
If your recent comments are indicative of the tone you took when reporting you are probably lucky your reports are getting any response at all and aren't just being automatically bit bucketed.
posted by Mitheral at 6:06 AM on April 21, 2011
posted by Mitheral at 6:06 AM on April 21, 2011
I thought Canadians were supposed to be nice.
posted by desjardins at 6:44 AM on April 21, 2011
posted by desjardins at 6:44 AM on April 21, 2011
We are. Recent political actions are making us cranky.
posted by Mitheral at 5:42 AM on April 22, 2011
posted by Mitheral at 5:42 AM on April 22, 2011
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posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:28 AM on April 11, 2011 [1 favorite]