Join 3,421 readers in helping fund MetaFilter (Hide)

Numerology aside, it is still rememberance day.
November 11, 2011 4:43 AM   Subscribe

Apparently I'm one of two or three people who finds this post massively disrespectful and flippant. After having a few (admittedly ill considered) posts deleted and being told to take it to MetaTalk here I am.
posted by Grimgrin to Etiquette/Policy at 4:43 AM (119 comments total) 3 users marked this as a favorite

There's already a remembrance thread in progress. This post was about something else entirely. It is nether disrespectful nor flippant. It's making light of the once-in-a-century lineup of month/day/year-ending numbers in our calendaring system.

Take your need for respect and non-flip-ness to the remembrance thread, and leave this other one to the subject of the FPP.
posted by hippybear at 4:48 AM on November 11, 2011 [25 favorites]


Well, it isnae.
posted by mippy at 4:48 AM on November 11, 2011


Okay. Can I ask what you'd like to see as a result of this thread? Another thread commemorating Remembrance/Veterans'/Armistice Day (hippybear points out it exists)? A renewed commitment to respecting others' points of view in all threads (operationalized how)? A space to indulge in a bit of kvetching about numerology (i.e. threadshitting here instead of there)? The numerology thread deleted (rather unlikely to happen; remember MeFi isn't for any one of us)? What? I'm genuinely curious here.
posted by .kobayashi. at 4:51 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


Though hippybear explained this in a rather less facetious manner.

Rememberance Day is really important, and many people respect it, and most of this country at least will stop for the two-minute silence today and on Sunday. This doesn't mean that posting about numerology or daft stuff is wrong. People make jokes and point out coincidences and spread memes on all kinds of anniversaries, and this and respect are not mutually exclusive. (Notwithstanding that not everyone, for whatever reason, want to mark Rememberance Day.) People in the UK, for instance, found it amusing enough on 07/07/07, even if 7/7 has now become another tragic anniversary.

I mean, nobody's saying 'Fuck off dead soldiers, it's time to talk NUMBERS', is it now? Unless you go into all the Talk Like A Pirate Day threads complaining that nobody mentions Somalia*, it's a strange argument.



*on an unrelated note, I think TLAPD is v.unfunny, but this is why I avoid these threads.
posted by mippy at 4:53 AM on November 11, 2011 [4 favorites]


I think it's useful to have two threads. One for solemn remembrance, and one for fun.

That way, the people who want to have fun with the date can joke in the fun thread, and the solemn remembrance people can be serious in the serious thread.


They can co-exist, we can do both. Really.
posted by louche mustachio at 4:53 AM on November 11, 2011 [4 favorites]


I'd just like to say that I wholeheartedly agree with Grimgrin, but also really like taz and do not want her Friday to be anything other than awesome.
posted by GeckoDundee at 4:53 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


I don't understand what you're saying. Is no one allowed to have fun on Veteran's Day?
posted by John Cohen at 4:54 AM on November 11, 2011


I'm not wild about the intro, but I doubt it was actually meant to be offensive about Remembrance Day. I was kind of glad to see it, because people were getting their chocolate in their peanut butter in the open Remembrance Day thread with jokes about 11/11/11 etc.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:54 AM on November 11, 2011 [4 favorites]


That wasn't choclolate.
posted by GeckoDundee at 4:56 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


It might be flippant, but it's in no way disrespectful. Just because it's remembrance day, doesn't mean it can't be other things as well.
posted by dg at 4:57 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]


Today's date is a very interesting and unusual number, and there's nothing inappropriate about noticing this in other context than remembrance.

Here in the UK, every November is heralded by an increasingly ferocious witch-hunt against those who are not seen to be commemorating Remembrance Day conspicuously or piously enough (actually, it started in October this year). Let's not encourage this nonsense. There are many facets to this day, and remembering the soldiers who have bravely given their lives for causes good and bad is only one of them, as important as it is.
posted by nowonmai at 4:58 AM on November 11, 2011 [20 favorites]


Honestly? Yes, all I'm hoping for is a space to talk about whether a thread that implicitly equates the remembrance of WW1 with the appreciation of a particularly funny scene in "This is Spinal Tap" is appropriate.

Since the thread itself is not the venue, I'm taking it here and will leave the original thread alone, as was suggested.

If neither Metafilter nor MetaTalk is the appropriate venue, please point me to the correct one.
posted by Grimgrin at 4:58 AM on November 11, 2011


Do you know how many timezones there are in Russia?
posted by Burhanistan at 5:00 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


Burhanistan: 9.
posted by Grimgrin at 5:02 AM on November 11, 2011


implicitly equates the remembrance of WW1 with the appreciation of a particularly funny scene in "This is Spinal Tap"

I really don't think anyone is implying that those things are of equal importance at all.
posted by louche mustachio at 5:02 AM on November 11, 2011 [3 favorites]


After having a few (admittedly ill considered) posts deleted and being told to take it to MetaTalk here I am.

What the what, why the hell didn't you capitalize Remembrance Day in the tile of this post?! What kind of sick, unfeeling bastard are you?! Goddamit, millions of people died in WWI and you don't have the basic human decency to put in two capital letters but do have the nerve to talk about others being disrespectful?!

Climb down off that pedestal and quit telling people how they should behave, you flawed human you!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:04 AM on November 11, 2011 [21 favorites]


Depending on where in the world you live and are from, the appreciation of a scene from 'This Is Spinal Tap' may be a whole lot more relevant to you than remembering a foreign war...
posted by Dysk at 5:04 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


I don't think the post "implicitly equates" the two - the post is built around the 11/11/11 coincidence, and mentions a bunch of things that go along with that, one of which is Remembrance Day. The intro to the post did make me go "hmmm" for a moment, but I don't personally find it either disrespectful or flippant.
posted by ZsigE at 5:05 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


Brandon: I posted something like your comment in the original thread, and it was swiftly, and correctly, deleted.
posted by Grimgrin at 5:09 AM on November 11, 2011


Since the thread itself is not the venue, I'm taking it here and will leave the original thread alone, as was suggested.

Who suggested that this thread isn't the correct "venue"? No one's denying that MetaTalk is the part of the site where we have discussions about whether a Metafilter post is appropriate. Just because you're allowed to post in MetaTalk doesn't mean people are going to agree with you.
posted by John Cohen at 5:09 AM on November 11, 2011 [3 favorites]


one of the things I like best about being human is the ability to hold several ideas and feelings at the same time, and even experience discrete emotions all at once.

11/11/11 is a perfect day to truly appreciate that ability.
posted by batmonkey at 5:10 AM on November 11, 2011 [10 favorites]


That's how big they are.
posted by Burhanistan at 5:10 AM on November 11, 2011


Too soon, eh?
posted by anotherpanacea at 5:10 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


"With all due respect" was probably not the way to start that post.
posted by smackfu at 5:12 AM on November 11, 2011 [6 favorites]


What the what, why the hell didn't you capitalize Remembrance Day in the tile of this post?!

The word remembrance is also misspelled!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:13 AM on November 11, 2011


John Cohen: I don't expect people to agree with me. I should have made it clear I was responding to kobyashi's "Can I ask what you'd like to see as a result of this thread?" comment.
posted by Grimgrin at 5:13 AM on November 11, 2011


an increasingly ferocious witch-hunt against those who are not seen to be commemorating Remembrance Day conspicuously or piously enough

Amen to that.

Count me as one of those unfeeling bastards that thinks the desire by some to force remembrance onto people who are just amused by all the 1's in todays date is a bad thing. Honestly, I had hoped that the nationalistic frenzy that has been hysterically latched onto remembrance day in this country could have been kept away from people in other countries. I'm actually embarrassed right now to be British.

And just because I'm saying this is not "evidence" that somehow I don't support Our Brave Lads Abroad. As far as I'm concerned, some people need to turn the jingoism down from "The Sun" to something that less resembles militarism.
posted by seanyboy at 5:14 AM on November 11, 2011 [14 favorites]


Grimgrin: Okay, that's a reasonable enough goal, and I think I understand the motivation for this MeTa a little better now.

My take on this is as follows:

1) I didn't really read the "implicit equation" of WWI to Spinal Tap in the original thread, but I can see how you might have, because...

2) ... it often seams irrespective of intent "with all due respect" usually means anything but.

3) Nevertheless, I don't see any reason to doubt onefellswoop's motives in his framing. I read it more as a slightly clumsy but sincere desire to separate a fun thread commemorating a date from a more sincere one commemorating the same date differently.

So, yes, I guess I don't find the thread massively disrespectful. And while I do find it flippant, well, it's meant to be lightminded, isn't it? My opinion to be sure. But that's what we're collecting here.

(And yes, I think this is exactly what MeTa is for. Your clarification was very helpful.)
posted by .kobayashi. at 5:15 AM on November 11, 2011


ugh. seams = seems.
posted by .kobayashi. at 5:15 AM on November 11, 2011


It would have been very easy to frame the post as "Veteran's Day is always on 11/11, which tends to overshadow some other events that are also on the 11th such as..."
posted by smackfu at 5:16 AM on November 11, 2011


And sometimes "With all due respect" means exactly that. It means, "I don't want to minimise an important day for you, but hey - today's also really fun. I don't want to upset anyone, but I want to talk about the fun things too."

The fact that the OP referenced the fact that it is remembrance day should be congratulated. Not vilified.
posted by seanyboy at 5:19 AM on November 11, 2011 [7 favorites]


What the hell good is complaining about people having fun with the numerical oddity that happens today and trying to insist that people be solemn? Is that really doing anything for veterans?
posted by Burhanistan at 5:25 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


I see you've met oneswellfoop.
posted by fleacircus at 5:28 AM on November 11, 2011


Brandon: I posted something like your comment in the original thread, and it was swiftly, and correctly, deleted.

And then you came here and further disrespected whatever day we're supposed to holding sacrosanct today. How dare you, sir!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:39 AM on November 11, 2011


In America anyway, every day is already Remember Our Fallen Heroes Solemnly And Never Speak Of Them Ill Day. So on 11/11 I like to take a day off.
posted by DU at 5:41 AM on November 11, 2011 [11 favorites]


Well, it's also my friend's birthday, for example. Do you think celebrating that also implicitly equates it to the remembrance of WWI?

Also, I'm Italian. Veteran's Day, for me, is observed on November 4th or the closest weekend to that. Does that mean I also have to be somber all day today or can I just privately acknowledge those who served and passed and get on with my regularly scheduled activities?

YOU MUST GRIEVE AND BE TERRIBLY SAD is not an appropriate sentiment for any remembrance, that was lies dogma.
posted by lydhre at 5:43 AM on November 11, 2011 [3 favorites]


I grew up in England and I really don't give a fuck about rememberance day. I am not interested in Metafilter bowing to Sun-style moral policing. If it's meaningful to you, great, you have a thread that I'm happy to leave alone as it simply doesn't concern me, but don't come preaching into other threads.
posted by Spacelegoman at 5:43 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]


And sometimes "With all due respect" means exactly that.

It's unfortunately been so misused that it's almost lost that meaning. How many times have you seen, "With all due respect, I think you're an idiot."
posted by smackfu at 5:47 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


I'm the son and grandson of veterans and count many veterans among my friends. While, I obviously respect the idea of Veteran's Day, I never saw it as a day for self-conciously somber solemnity, but a day to pay respect and thanks. I also never thought we weren't allowed to think about anything else all day. Do we spend all day Christmas opening presents?

Anyway, I don't think any vets are going to be heartbroken if we chuckle at Spinal Tap.
posted by jonmc at 5:48 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


Well, if nothing else, this post has educated me about how easy it is to get the wrong impression of what someone is doing with a post, and why I should be circumspect with my responses.

Just to make it entirely clear, I don't care what you do or what you observe today, I was reacting to phrasing that seemed to equate remembrance day in significance with Pocky, which seemed to me to be inappropriate.

30+ comments later, obviously what seemed to me to be making an equivalence doesn't appear the same way to other people
posted by Grimgrin at 5:49 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


Which one of those threads is the proper venue for reminiscing about 9/9/99? Ah, Dreamcast launch day. Hmm--maybe it should go in the Herman Cain thread.
posted by box at 5:49 AM on November 11, 2011 [4 favorites]


Did anyone here know that they broke ground for the Pentagon's construction on September 11th, 1941? Or that the World Wildlife Fund celebrates its founding that day? Camp David Accords too!
posted by gman at 5:52 AM on November 11, 2011


My grandfather did something or other during WWI. Your refusal to use capital letters on website disrespects not only him, America and those who died, but also the trees used to make WWI history books.

We await your apology, sir!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:56 AM on November 11, 2011


Just to make it entirely clear, I don't care what you do or what you observe today, I was reacting to phrasing that seemed to equate remembrance day in significance with Pocky, which seemed to me to be inappropriate.

I've gone and read that post a few times and maybe it's just that I'm barely into cup of coffee #1, but it doesn't "equate" Remembrance Day with anything else. It notes that OTHER things also happen on this day.

It's like if your birthday is on December 25th; celebrating it doesn't mean you equate yourself with Jesus.
posted by rtha at 5:57 AM on November 11, 2011 [5 favorites]


What the hell are you people doing here? Skyrim is out!
posted by crunchland at 5:59 AM on November 11, 2011 [6 favorites]


Did anyone here know that they broke ground for the Pentagon's construction on September 11th, 1941? Or that the World Wildlife Fund celebrates its founding that day? Camp David Accords too!

prevenient disrespect?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:02 AM on November 11, 2011


What the hell are you people doing here? Skyrim is out!

I'm here because I'm at work.
posted by Infinite Jest at 6:03 AM on November 11, 2011 [4 favorites]


beans! beans are everywhere!
posted by sanka at 6:04 AM on November 11, 2011


What the hell are you people doing here? Skyrim is out!

Everytime I hear "Skyrim," I think it's one of those 3rd or 4h tier cell phone providers.
posted by to sir with millipedes at 6:04 AM on November 11, 2011 [4 favorites]


"With all due respect, I think you're an idiot."

Maybe they're only due enough respect for an insult to their intelligence?
posted by carsonb at 6:04 AM on November 11, 2011


taz: "I'm not wild about the intro, but I doubt it was actually meant to be offensive about Remembrance Day. I was kind of glad to see it, because people were getting their chocolate in their peanut butter in the open Remembrance Day thread with jokes about 11/11/11 etc."

A Nutella and peanut butter sandwich for breakfast? Don't mind if I do!
posted by Splunge at 6:07 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


This thread reminds me of a high school acquaintance who resented observations of John Lennon's death because it was "the day after Pearl Harbor!"
posted by octobersurprise at 6:08 AM on November 11, 2011


It's like if your birthday is on December 25th; celebrating it doesn't mean you equate yourself with Jesus.


Speak for yourself.
posted by JPD at 6:10 AM on November 11, 2011


I think it's worth pointing out that it's Veteran's Day for you, but for some of us in other places in the world, it is indeed Pocky Day. Or Dr. Who Day. Or Inauguration Day. This has absolutely no impact on how a given person may feel about veterans, the armed forces, or WWI. Really.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:16 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


It seems like one thread for Remembrance Day and one thread for Corduroy Day is precisely the right thing to do here. On the other hand, I'm not sure using the greater leeway of MetaTalk to try to mock and bait Grimgrin into an amusing flameout here is a great way to respond to an emotional if minority response.
posted by running order squabble fest at 6:16 AM on November 11, 2011


jonmc: " Anyway, I don't think any vets are going to be heartbroken if we chuckle at Spinal Tap."

Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year. It's just not really widely reported.
posted by zarq at 6:19 AM on November 11, 2011 [3 favorites]


The truth is out there, zarq.
posted by crunchland at 6:21 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]


running order squabble fest: On the other hand, I'm not sure using the greater leeway of MetaTalk to try to mock and bait Grimgrin into an amusing flameout here is a great way to respond to an emotional if minority response.

With all due respect, why should 11/11/11 be different than any other day?
posted by gman at 6:21 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]


It would have been very easy to frame the post as...

Indeed. But oneswellfoop is sort of like this and that's the way he decided to make his post. I'm sort of with taz, happy to have two posts so that people can be more somber in the Veteran's Day post. It's Courduroy Day among my people.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:22 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


jessamyn: " It's Courduroy Day among my people."

Ok, that's hilarious.
posted by zarq at 6:26 AM on November 11, 2011


Well, it's also my friend's birthday, for example. Do you think celebrating that also implicitly equates it to the remembrance of WWI?

depends how old he is
posted by desjardins at 6:27 AM on November 11, 2011


The truth is out there

Nope, it's in a burrito.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:27 AM on November 11, 2011


I didn't know it was Corduroy Day! Sadly, the corduroy pants I have are too big for me now, so I can't celebrate by wearing them. I will think corduroy thoughts, and perhaps say "zwhip zwhip zwhip" as I walk.
posted by rtha at 6:29 AM on November 11, 2011 [8 favorites]


It's like if your birthday is on December 25th; celebrating it doesn't mean you equate yourself with Jesus.

I was born on Good Friday. FISH PIE ALL ROUND.

Seriously, though, my 30th birthday will co-incide with the 30th anniversary of the beginning of the Falklands War. Thankfully, I'll be out of the country and avoid history infringing on MY SPECIAL DAY.
posted by mippy at 6:40 AM on November 11, 2011


With all due respect, why should 11/11/11 be different than any other day?

Because everyone loves binary?

Also, omg!!!!111eleventyone 11/11/11 is 6/6/6 in base 4!
posted by daniel_charms at 6:41 AM on November 11, 2011


Hot damn, I accidentally wore corduroy on Corduroy Appreciation Day! I actually new about CAD, but I honestly wasn't thinking about it when I got dressed. Mostly I was just trying to express my disrespect for veterans.
posted by mullacc at 6:41 AM on November 11, 2011 [3 favorites]


Which one of those threads is the proper venue for reminiscing about 9/9/99?

That was exactly a month before I lost my favorite software development job, you insensitive bastard.

FREE SODAS AND PING-PONG TABLE NEVAR FORGET
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 6:42 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]


the corduroy pants I have are too big for me now,

Not if you wear them as a hat.
posted by jonmc at 6:48 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


11/11/11 is 6/6/6 in base 4!

It's 9/9/9 in base 8. Octal is a viral ad for Herman Cain.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:49 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


to sir with millipedes: "What the hell are you people doing here? Skyrim is out!

Everytime I hear "Skyrim," I think it's one of those 3rd or 4h tier cell phone providers.
"

I'm willing to bet it's a new extreme porn niche that combines analingus and parachute jumping.

Whatever it is really, their marketing is crap - I've seen the word all over the place this week, but have no idea whether it's a film, computer game, car, soft drink, whatever.
posted by jack_mo at 6:50 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


11/11/11 is 6/6/6 in base 4!

...or maybe it's base 5, I don't know. I guess got so excited crafting a conspiracy theory about aliens with four tentacles in place of arms and legs (which I totally forgot to post in all this excitement), I just forgot how to do math.
posted by daniel_charms at 6:56 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


I didn't know it was Corduroy Day!

It often, ironically enough, tends to sneak up on people.

VHIP VHIP VHIP VHIP VHIP
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:57 AM on November 11, 2011 [4 favorites]


When you're a veteran of the Metal Wars of the 70's, the thread makes more sense.

\m/
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:58 AM on November 11, 2011


I headed out today to go to a staff meeting at the library and there are a ton of Veterans in full uniform standing on the street corner with their VFW flag waving at people who are all honking and waving back. I think I'm lucky in that the veterans in my community are a really honored part of the ecosystem here and there's a wholesome way to say "thanks for your service" without getting too tangled up in the "in this illegitimate-feeling war" aspect of it. Everyone really needs to draw their lines in a different place on this one and I know this day is hard for people for a wide variety of reasons. I think it can be tough for geek-types who feel the "Well actually..." compulsion really pressuring them to step in to a thread where other people are waxing poetic about armed conflict to speak truth to power, but there really is a "read the room" aspect to a lot of this that we always want to politely nudge people towards.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:02 AM on November 11, 2011


There's nothing to stop someone from putting together and posting a thoughtful, sombre, respectful Remembrance Day thread. Maybe work on that instead of getting worked up about other threads? It might be more productive.
posted by 1000monkeys at 7:04 AM on November 11, 2011


On November 11, I like to celebrate Kurt Vonnegut's birthday. He also had something to say about the date (from Breakfast of Champions):
I will come to a time in my backwards trip when November eleventh, accidentally my birthday, was a sacred day called Armistice Day. When I was a boy, and when Dwayne Hoover was a boy, all the people of all the nations which had fought in the First World War were silent during the eleventh minute of the eleventh hour of Armistice Day, which was the eleventh day of the eleventh month.

It was during that minute in nineteen hundred and eighteen, that millions upon millions of human beings stopped butchering one another. I have talked to old men who were on battlefields during that minute. They have told me in one way or another that the sudden silence was the Voice of God. So we still have among us some men who can remember when God spoke clearly to mankind.

Armistice Day has become Veterans' Day. Armistice Day was sacred. Veterans' Day is not.

So I will throw Veterans' Day over my shoulder. Armistice Day I will keep. I don't want to throw away any sacred things.

What else is sacred? Oh, Romeo and Juliet, for instance.

And all music is.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:05 AM on November 11, 2011 [19 favorites]


Do they still do the free meals for birthdays and veterans at Applebee's? My husband was in the Navy and it's my birthday, so I guess we're going to... someplace else because the food sucks there.
posted by desjardins at 7:19 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


Desjardins: Yep. Chili's has free meals for service members as well. YMMV on food suckage, but my younger Marine brother is excitedly stopping by both.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:23 AM on November 11, 2011


I can't be the only one who equates solemn remembrance with pocky, can I?
posted by Think_Long at 7:25 AM on November 11, 2011


Pepero is better than Pocky.
posted by Burhanistan at 7:28 AM on November 11, 2011


I'm not a Vonnegut fan, but DevilsAdvocate has reminded me that it is from Vonnegut that I have apparently derived my preference for "Armistice Day".
posted by Trurl at 7:29 AM on November 11, 2011


At 11:00 today, I did what I usually do since I'm in China which doesn't recognize Armistice Day. I found a quiet corner and talked to my Grandfather (can't believe it's been 25 years since he passed), said thanks to all who served and gave a quiet prayer for my friends who still serve.

I then went back to work and joked about Singles Day with my colleagues.
posted by arcticseal at 7:43 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


Pepero is better than Pocky.

them's fightin words
posted by elizardbits at 7:49 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


Pocky is a killing word.
posted by fleacircus at 7:51 AM on November 11, 2011


It's the start of Carnival Season in the Rhineland and oneswellfoop's post seems to fit well with that. Even that well-known leftist rag, the Telegraph, seems to have managed to cope both with both aspects of the day.
posted by SyntacticSugar at 7:56 AM on November 11, 2011


No. "Kitty" is a killing word.
posted by quin at 8:05 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


Apparently I'm one of two or three people who finds this post massively disrespectful and flippant. After having a few (admittedly ill considered) posts deleted and being told to take it to MetaTalk here I am.

You know the government of the UK has banned a group demonstrating on Remembrance Day?

Also, just today the police said: "Individuals seeking to disrupt the two-minute silence will be dealt with robustly. ...If the memory of dead soldiers is insulted where people have gathered to honour those soldiers there is clearly a threat to public order."

I'm sure glad these people fought and died for my freedoms!
posted by Jehan at 8:09 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]


In fairness to the Met they did arrest a whole bunch of EDL supporters trying to stir up shit with the OWS bunch at St. Paul's. So it's a score-draw for the boys in blue.
Blatant duck and dodge by Theresa May with the Muslims Against Crusades banning, though.
posted by SyntacticSugar at 8:13 AM on November 11, 2011


No matter what you hold near and dear to your heart, there are going to be people out there who think it's hilarious to make light of it. I think that applies to just about everyone except maybe sociopaths and the dead-inside. I figure, there are two ways to respond to that -- accept that it's just part of our general foolishness as self-involved human beings, or demand that everyone stop being foolish and respect each other. Since the latter is unlikely to do much good, one may as well work on the former.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 8:21 AM on November 11, 2011


> No matter what you hold near and dear to your heart, there are going to be people out there who think it's hilarious to make light of it.

That wasn't happening here though.
posted by Burhanistan at 8:22 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


In fairness to the Met they did arrest a whole bunch of EDL supporters trying to stir up shit with the OWS bunch at St. Paul's. So it's a score-draw for the boys in blue. Blatant duck and dodge by Theresa May with the Muslims Against Crusades banning, though.

Oh sure, the EDL were planning on assaulting OWS at St Paul's, and it was fair to arrest them. But their remarks about protesting Remembrance Day events is a breach of the freedom of speech.
posted by Jehan at 8:28 AM on November 11, 2011


I'm sure glad these people fought and died for my freedoms!

Exactly. Trying to tell other people how to feel and act seems way more disrespectful of the sacrifices made in the name of "freedom" than any lame Spinal Tap joke.
posted by nomisxid at 8:43 AM on November 11, 2011


Singles day!!!! (Or 111111!) Nice. I needed that!
posted by bquarters at 9:02 AM on November 11, 2011


Trying to tell other people how to feel and act seems way more disrespectful of the sacrifices made in the name of "freedom" than any lame Spinal Tap joke.

I realise I'm on the hugs and puppies and Friendship is Magic wing here, but... did we just compare someone starting a MetaTalk discussion with the governmental suppression of the British version of the Westboro Baptist Church, did we?

Speaking of which... Jehan: Bear in mind that the British have no inalienable guarantee of freedom of speech, beyond those protections provided by the European Convention. Like so many other things, free and peaceful assembly is bounded not by what you are constitutionally entitled to do, but by what it is currently hard to arrest you for doing. Those goalposts having been moved by the Global War Against Terror...
posted by running order squabble fest at 9:08 AM on November 11, 2011


Bear in mind that the British have no inalienable guarantee of freedom of speech, beyond those protections provided by the European Convention. Like so many other things, free and peaceful assembly is bounded not by what you are constitutionally entitled to do, but by what it is currently hard to arrest you for doing. Those goalposts having been moved by the Global War Against Terror...

I'm not interested in the legal state of things. Plenty of laws are wrong. My belief in the freedom of speech is a moral stand. I know that the police and the government often curtail freedom of speech quite lawfully in situations where I believe it is wrong. Am I allowed to say when I feel freedom of speech has been breached, even though there is no legal argument against it?
posted by Jehan at 9:13 AM on November 11, 2011


Oh, wow, absolutely. I didn't mean to suggest that you shouldn't express your moral position. I agree with you that citizens of a civilised nation should have their rights to freedom of speech defined and protected. I was just saying that while this would be a violation of inalienable freedoms in the US, in Britain it's a demonstration of how the establishment can redefine what is protected free speech pretty much at will, by deciding e.g that a group is quote-unquote glorifying terrorism, and that unredefining it then becomes a complex legal affair. So, the concept of guaranteed freedom of speech doesn't actually exist in Britain, except insofar as it was introduced in the provisions in Article 10 of the European Convention, represented in the Human Rights Act (which, of course, many in the current government would love to revoke, including the current Home Secretary).

Like policing by consent, another British tradition that is coming under increasing pressure, the unwritten constitution basically only works for as long as the people at the top aren't dicks about it.
posted by running order squabble fest at 9:32 AM on November 11, 2011


Am I allowed to say when I feel freedom of speech has been breached, even though there is no legal argument against it?

Aren't you doing so?
posted by octobersurprise at 9:33 AM on November 11, 2011


(And, not to be all USA!USA!, but freedom of speech does still have power as a legal and social concept. Although policing by consent never really caught on outside Santa Monica.)
posted by running order squabble fest at 9:36 AM on November 11, 2011


I agree with you that citizens of a civilised nation should have their rights to freedom of speech defined and protected. I was just saying that while this would be a violation of inalienable freedoms in the US, in Britain it's a demonstration of how the establishment can redefine what is protected free speech pretty much at will, by deciding e.g that a group is quote-unquote glorifying terrorism, and that unredefining it then becomes a complex legal affair.

Oh, that's cool then.


Aren't you doing so?

Sure, but I think we were just getting confused whether it was a legal position or a moral one. No problem.
posted by Jehan at 9:39 AM on November 11, 2011


Yeah, sorry about that. It was an appendix to my surprised response to the possible suggestion by nomisxid that starting a thread in MetaTalk (having been instructed so to do) was equivalent to exploiting state power to silence a hate group, and clearly one I didn't express well.
posted by running order squabble fest at 9:51 AM on November 11, 2011


The Met's bone-headed tweet isn't even the most egregious attack on civil liberties by them this week.
posted by SyntacticSugar at 10:14 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


I was sorry to see the 11-11-11 post, until I found the Great War post. The Armistice was signed at 11 a.m. on November 11, 1918. Some generals chose to keep troops in battle until 11 a.m., even though they knew, many hours before, that the Armistice was to be signed. The disrespect for lives shown by that action boggles my mind. I've read a bit about WWI, and it's a fantastic reminder of the wasteful carnage of war, to no good end. So I'm not into any celebration of 11-11-11. But. The Armistice was signed in 1918, 92 years ago. It's not a good idea to forget the grim horror of war, but it's out of memory now. If you want to celebrate 11-11-11 as an interesting date, I can't see it as disrespectful.
posted by theora55 at 10:53 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


Reading about WWI made me really sad. This cheered me up.
posted by theora55 at 11:01 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


Apparently Verizon Wireless stores across the US will be opening (opened, depending on time zone) at 11:11 am today in honor of... the launch of the Motorola Droid RAZR smartphone.

On Remembrance Day/Armistice Day/Veterans' Day I'd much rather see individuals in a MetaFilter thread getting a little silly and trivial discussing Corduroy Day and Spinal Tap than see a massive corporation deciding that 11:11 11/11/11 is a cool date and time to introduce a new product ("Oh, you say it has historical significance too? Huh," says Verizon).
posted by Lexica at 11:01 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]


My father died early this year at the age of 90.

He was a World War II veteran.

He was also the best example you'd ever see of undiagnosed PTSD. He saw the horrors of war and I saw the horrors of him.

I made that post because I specifically did NOT want to have MetaFilter, like so much else of the media, dominated by questionably sincere Veterans Day mawkishness*. It was worded very carefully, and I fretted over using the phrase "with all due respect", which has become more often used to mean "here comes some disrespect".

One more point: MEMORIAL DAY in May is the day set aside to honor America's war dead. VETERANS DAY is for the war survivors. Other nations, with REMEMBRANCE DAY, will vary. But that's how it's supposed to be where I live. I honored my father on Memorial Day, six months ago and a month after his passing.


*I came to believe a long time ago that the best way to honor those who served and died in wars was not to send any more to do the same.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:11 AM on November 11, 2011 [7 favorites]


Happy 11-11-11-11-11, everyone!

Or, close there to, that is...
posted by y2karl at 11:13 AM on November 11, 2011


*glares at onefellswoop for hitting the mark....*
posted by y2karl at 11:14 AM on November 11, 2011


God, I can't even spell his name, grumble, grumble...
posted by y2karl at 11:15 AM on November 11, 2011


But that's how it's supposed to be where I live.

With all due respect, oneswellfoop, I find it necessary to point out that Metafilter is not, in fact, your home. Metafilter has an international membership, as confusing as that is for some Americans. Those of us in the rest of the world get enough "World Champions" hyperbole from sports broadcasters in October to more than last us for the rest of the year, thanks.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 12:31 PM on November 11, 2011


That goes both ways, Pareidoliatic.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 12:38 PM on November 11, 2011


jack_mo: "to sir with millipedes: "What the hell are you people doing here? Skyrim is out!

Everytime I hear "Skyrim," I think it's one of those 3rd or 4h tier cell phone providers.
"

I'm willing to bet it's a new extreme porn niche that combines analingus and parachute jumping.

Whatever it is really, their marketing is crap - I've seen the word all over the place this week, but have no idea whether it's a film, computer game, car, soft drink, whatever.
"

You are not one of the chosen. You are not meant to know. We the chosen know each other. Walking down the street. At our jobs. Driving.

A glance, the tilt of a head, the glint of an eye. We are the Skyrimfolk. We will disappear, sometimes for hours, sometimes for days... We will enter a world unlike yours.

It will swallow us up, we will be not-here.

Eventually mundane things will draw us back. We will stretch, joints will pop, we will groan.

"What day is it? What is the time?"

We return to your world, in body. But in spirit we are far away, with dragons.
posted by Splunge at 12:39 PM on November 11, 2011


I'm not wild about the intro, but I doubt it was actually meant to be offensive about Remembrance Day.

What the hell was supposed to be offensive?

"With all due respect, today (11/11/11) is not just for Veterans or those remembering the end of World War I."

Is it the "is not just"? Jesus Christ, grow a skin.

"With all due respect" was probably not the way to start that post.

Oh ... what?

Just to make it entirely clear, I don't care what you do or what you observe today, I was reacting to phrasing that seemed to equate remembrance day in significance with Pocky, which seemed to me to be inappropriate.

Oh ... but they are on the same day, so they do share a characteristic.

Do you know how many timezones there are in Russia?

Oh ... I do. I really do.

More previous 11.11
posted by mrgrimm at 1:12 PM on November 11, 2011


I came to believe a long time ago that the best way to honor those who served and died in wars was not to send any more to do the same.

Amen.

"I don't talk about anything from '43 to '45"
posted by mrgrimm at 1:15 PM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


Honestly? Yes, all I'm hoping for is a space to talk about whether a thread that implicitly equates the remembrance of WW1 with the appreciation of a particularly funny scene in "This is Spinal Tap" is appropriate.

You read an implication where none existed.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:36 PM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]


You're one of two or three people who are offended by that post? Just two or three, eh?

That ought to be your clue about the advisability of this Meta, right there.
posted by Decani at 2:29 PM on November 11, 2011


A veteran — Major Shaughnassey — lectured me today about how we have to stop fighting impossible wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, because it's distracting us from beating China.

"Those people are not our friends!"

Then I saw this and thought, "Wait, there are people still all het up about WWI?"
posted by klangklangston at 11:07 PM on November 11, 2011


Then I saw this and thought, "Wait, there are people still all het up about WWI?"

Yeah, it's really kinda over the top.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 1:29 AM on November 12, 2011


There are, of course, competing etymologies.
posted by box at 1:27 PM on November 12, 2011


Yes, why should we be interested in different points of view, it's not like that what makes this a place you'd want to hang around about.
posted by Hello, I'm David McGahan at 8:03 AM on November 13, 2011


« Older Is there still a page that sho...  |  Is my deleted question really ... Newer »

You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments