question about deletion November 11, 2011 6:25 AM Subscribe
Is my deleted question really unanswerable?
I just posted the following question on AskMe, and it was deleted:
Are straight men attracted to most of their female friends?
I know there will be no one answer to this question, and I don't want to stereotype, but I am curious about the general consensus on this.
For this question, let's define "female friend" as:
-a friend the guy has made on his own and not met through someone
-a friend the guy has not slept with
- a friend the guy seeks to spend one-on-one time with
"attraction" is defined in two main ways:
-sexually attracted, as in would be interested in sex with the friend if both were single and there would be no negative consequences
-romantically attracted, which includes the above but is more of a "crush" feeling
(copied and pasted because I still, embarrassingly, don't know how to do a link under the word, sorry)
The reason for deletion was that the question was "unanswerable". However I am curious if that's really true.
Are the following hypothetical questions unanswerable too?:
"Do most Americans like candy?"
"Do most Chinese people eat beef?"
If they are answerable, how exactly do they differ from my question which was asking a quantifiable question about a large segment of the population? It would be easy to find out what percentage of straight men are attracted to their female friends, and deduce if this percentage was "most". My point was to try to get some sample viewpoints from people and their experiences.
I have recently read questions on Ask Me that can be paraphrased as:
"What do Japanese people find weird about American culture?" (answers will stereotype Japanese people)
"How do you make kids like you?" (same thing with kids; the question implies that most kids like certain things).
So, I sort of feel that my question was deemed inappropriate because it deals with gender, which is a sensitive subject, and not that it was stereotyping, which a lot of questions try to do, it seems to me.
Am I missing something?
(note: I am not trying to be contrarian, I am genuinely curious. So I hope this can be discussed civilly)
I just posted the following question on AskMe, and it was deleted:
Are straight men attracted to most of their female friends?
I know there will be no one answer to this question, and I don't want to stereotype, but I am curious about the general consensus on this.
For this question, let's define "female friend" as:
-a friend the guy has made on his own and not met through someone
-a friend the guy has not slept with
- a friend the guy seeks to spend one-on-one time with
"attraction" is defined in two main ways:
-sexually attracted, as in would be interested in sex with the friend if both were single and there would be no negative consequences
-romantically attracted, which includes the above but is more of a "crush" feeling
(copied and pasted because I still, embarrassingly, don't know how to do a link under the word, sorry)
The reason for deletion was that the question was "unanswerable". However I am curious if that's really true.
Are the following hypothetical questions unanswerable too?:
"Do most Americans like candy?"
"Do most Chinese people eat beef?"
If they are answerable, how exactly do they differ from my question which was asking a quantifiable question about a large segment of the population? It would be easy to find out what percentage of straight men are attracted to their female friends, and deduce if this percentage was "most". My point was to try to get some sample viewpoints from people and their experiences.
I have recently read questions on Ask Me that can be paraphrased as:
"What do Japanese people find weird about American culture?" (answers will stereotype Japanese people)
"How do you make kids like you?" (same thing with kids; the question implies that most kids like certain things).
So, I sort of feel that my question was deemed inappropriate because it deals with gender, which is a sensitive subject, and not that it was stereotyping, which a lot of questions try to do, it seems to me.
Am I missing something?
(note: I am not trying to be contrarian, I am genuinely curious. So I hope this can be discussed civilly)
I reposted it so people could see the question and tell me what was wrong with it. I'm not looking for answers to it.
posted by bearette at 6:28 AM on November 11, 2011
posted by bearette at 6:28 AM on November 11, 2011
You should be mailing the mods on this one.
posted by panboi at 6:29 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by panboi at 6:29 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Unanswerable is just a part of why that question [which is here, you can click on the timestamp to get a link to it or go to the email you got when it was posted which will also have a link to it] was deleted but the basic issue is that it's a "poll the audience" question where it seems like you want to talk about the topic but don't have a problem you're trying to solve. Plus it just lends itself to stereotypes and generalizations where all you're going to get is people saying "it depends" [if we're lucky] and jumping into a bunch of hostile arguing about gender differences if we're not.
AskMe questions need to have a problem to be solved and yours seems to just want to talk about the topic. Stereotyping questions are always pretty difficult areas for AskMe and really broad "Are men like this?" questions really are pretty unanswerable. If you are trying to use this question to solve a problem in your own life, please add that information and ask again next week.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:30 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
AskMe questions need to have a problem to be solved and yours seems to just want to talk about the topic. Stereotyping questions are always pretty difficult areas for AskMe and really broad "Are men like this?" questions really are pretty unanswerable. If you are trying to use this question to solve a problem in your own life, please add that information and ask again next week.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:30 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Straight men are not a series of programmed automatons who have one set of instructions on how to feel about female friends, therefore it's unanswerable.
Some crush on all. Some crush on most. Some crush on some. Some crush on few. Some crush on none. It's a spectrum.
The end.
posted by inturnaround at 6:30 AM on November 11, 2011 [9 favorites]
Some crush on all. Some crush on most. Some crush on some. Some crush on few. Some crush on none. It's a spectrum.
The end.
posted by inturnaround at 6:30 AM on November 11, 2011 [9 favorites]
You should be mailing the mods on this one.
well, I was hoping to get opinions from community members as well as mods. Did I do that wrong too? sigh.
posted by bearette at 6:37 AM on November 11, 2011
A better way to phrase the question: "Anecdata aside, have there been any reputable studies dealing with romantic attraction to friends of the opposite sex, and, in particular, men to their women friends? Are statistics available on this subject?"
In other words, making a request for the existence of data is much more answerable than seeking consensus.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:38 AM on November 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
In other words, making a request for the existence of data is much more answerable than seeking consensus.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:38 AM on November 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
My point was to try to get some sample viewpoints from people and their experiences.
If you're specifically requesting anecdata, it's not a proper question. The question about making kids like you was a question about, in the end, how to behave in a certain situation; staddard-issue agony aunt stuff. The question about Japanese people finding things weird had concrete answers that were an answer, rather than supporting a thesis (e.g. the question wasn't "do most Japanese people find American culture weird?")
The "Do Most Americans/Chinese..." questions aren't answerable short of linking to a scientific poll. Everything outside of that is hypothesizing. Same thing with your question. You can either have statistics -- and I doubt there's any really good statistics on it -- or guesses and personal experience and conjecture.
And if you look back, I can 99% guarantee you that I've seen "is my friend attracted to me?" or "help I'm attracted to my friend!" questions, so I don't think gender is at all the issue here.
posted by griphus at 6:39 AM on November 11, 2011
If you're specifically requesting anecdata, it's not a proper question. The question about making kids like you was a question about, in the end, how to behave in a certain situation; staddard-issue agony aunt stuff. The question about Japanese people finding things weird had concrete answers that were an answer, rather than supporting a thesis (e.g. the question wasn't "do most Japanese people find American culture weird?")
The "Do Most Americans/Chinese..." questions aren't answerable short of linking to a scientific poll. Everything outside of that is hypothesizing. Same thing with your question. You can either have statistics -- and I doubt there's any really good statistics on it -- or guesses and personal experience and conjecture.
And if you look back, I can 99% guarantee you that I've seen "is my friend attracted to me?" or "help I'm attracted to my friend!" questions, so I don't think gender is at all the issue here.
posted by griphus at 6:39 AM on November 11, 2011
*Runs original question through translator-matic 3000*
RESULT:
My boyfriend has recently made a new female friend outside of our normal circle of friends. I'm worried that he might be attracted to her and that our relationship is heading towards a tough time.
He says she's just a friend, and got upset when I suggested that there was more to it.
How can I feel more comfortable with my concerns and trust issues with this situation?
posted by Static Vagabond at 6:41 AM on November 11, 2011 [15 favorites]
RESULT:
My boyfriend has recently made a new female friend outside of our normal circle of friends. I'm worried that he might be attracted to her and that our relationship is heading towards a tough time.
He says she's just a friend, and got upset when I suggested that there was more to it.
How can I feel more comfortable with my concerns and trust issues with this situation?
posted by Static Vagabond at 6:41 AM on November 11, 2011 [15 favorites]
In other words, making a request for the existence of data is much more answerable than seeking consensus.
Yeah, exactly. A lot of questions that are in sort of problematically chatty territory can be fixed up a bit by figuring out how to restate them as "what information is available about this?" instead of "what do you think the deal is with this?", since it both discourages chattiness and makes it clearer what the specific kind of info you're looking for is.
If a question can't survive that transition—if there's no way to reformulate it into a request for something other than unconstrained personal anecdotes—that may be a sign that it's not actually going to be a good fit for Metafilter.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:41 AM on November 11, 2011
Yeah, exactly. A lot of questions that are in sort of problematically chatty territory can be fixed up a bit by figuring out how to restate them as "what information is available about this?" instead of "what do you think the deal is with this?", since it both discourages chattiness and makes it clearer what the specific kind of info you're looking for is.
If a question can't survive that transition—if there's no way to reformulate it into a request for something other than unconstrained personal anecdotes—that may be a sign that it's not actually going to be a good fit for Metafilter.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:41 AM on November 11, 2011
The question is problematic because:
1) My point was to try to get some sample viewpoints from people and their experiences.
...is not what Ask is for. It isn't a polling station, you know?
2) Are straight men attracted to most of their female friends?
..is both unanswerable and offensive. Straight men are many things, with nearly infinite variety. There is no single answer to this question.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:44 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
1) My point was to try to get some sample viewpoints from people and their experiences.
...is not what Ask is for. It isn't a polling station, you know?
2) Are straight men attracted to most of their female friends?
..is both unanswerable and offensive. Straight men are many things, with nearly infinite variety. There is no single answer to this question.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:44 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
well, I was hoping to get opinions from community members as well as mods. Did I do that wrong too?
No, if you strongly feel that a deletion raises issues that require community discussion, this is the place to do it. I suspect though that, as is usually the case with "Why was my x deleted?" posts, you as the poster might have had a more helpful experience simply by contacting the mods directly to hear their reasoning. It's really pretty rare that there's much rallying to the defense of the deleted question in these threads, and this particular type of question is a pretty routine deletion.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:44 AM on November 11, 2011
No, if you strongly feel that a deletion raises issues that require community discussion, this is the place to do it. I suspect though that, as is usually the case with "Why was my x deleted?" posts, you as the poster might have had a more helpful experience simply by contacting the mods directly to hear their reasoning. It's really pretty rare that there's much rallying to the defense of the deleted question in these threads, and this particular type of question is a pretty routine deletion.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:44 AM on November 11, 2011
The recent examples you gave, even if they tend towards stereotypes, can still have answers. Japanese people can find x, y, or z weird says a person who is Japanese or knows Japanese people have found something weird. Kids like a, b, or c says a person who knows kids. These questions have answers that could then be applied to a situation. Any straight guy or anybody who knows a straight guy could answer yes or no, but it really wouldn't answer anything except for that telling a story that, without more information, doesn't really solve any sort of problem.
Though I didn't find any examples for the Americans liking candy or Chinese people and beef, I'm not really sure how those are relevant because I didn't see them in AskMetafilter, but even if they were, there are plenty of actual figures/numbers that could answer that question.
And yes, gender questions -- even those that come really damn close to stereotyping -- aren't necessarily verboten when asked about a certain situation. I can think of two recent examples off the top of my head, and I'm somebody who steers clear of such things because my experience/social circle always feels like an outlier to people asking questions like that, so I feel that I wouldn't give a valuable answer if I did.
Did you know in 2000, Americans spent 1.9 billion dollars on Easter candy? Now you do.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:46 AM on November 11, 2011
Though I didn't find any examples for the Americans liking candy or Chinese people and beef, I'm not really sure how those are relevant because I didn't see them in AskMetafilter, but even if they were, there are plenty of actual figures/numbers that could answer that question.
And yes, gender questions -- even those that come really damn close to stereotyping -- aren't necessarily verboten when asked about a certain situation. I can think of two recent examples off the top of my head, and I'm somebody who steers clear of such things because my experience/social circle always feels like an outlier to people asking questions like that, so I feel that I wouldn't give a valuable answer if I did.
Did you know in 2000, Americans spent 1.9 billion dollars on Easter candy? Now you do.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:46 AM on November 11, 2011
well, I was hoping to get opinions from community members as well as mods. Did I do that wrong too?
No, that part is fine. Ignore panobi. IMO, "you should have emailed the mods rather than posting a MetaTalk" is, while sometimes appropriate, overused in general.
As for the deletion, I basically agree with Jessamyn: what's the problem to be solved? There doesn't appear to be one. Plus, we usually don't do "survey MeFites" type questions on here (even though some AskMe threads turn into that anyway, that shouldn't be the original intention of the Asker). So while the deletion reason could have been more clearly stated, I think the deletion itself is sound.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:48 AM on November 11, 2011
No, that part is fine. Ignore panobi. IMO, "you should have emailed the mods rather than posting a MetaTalk" is, while sometimes appropriate, overused in general.
As for the deletion, I basically agree with Jessamyn: what's the problem to be solved? There doesn't appear to be one. Plus, we usually don't do "survey MeFites" type questions on here (even though some AskMe threads turn into that anyway, that shouldn't be the original intention of the Asker). So while the deletion reason could have been more clearly stated, I think the deletion itself is sound.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:48 AM on November 11, 2011
"you should have emailed the mods rather than posting a MetaTalk" is, while sometimes appropriate, overused in general.
Though not in this case. If you have a beef with, or question about, the way the mods have manhandled your post or comments, just email them. If you have a beef with, or a question about, the community's (or a subset of the community's) participation in a thread, a MeTa might be appropriate, but I'd think twice, then a third time, about posting.
Think of it this way: your question was "XYZ? What does everyone think?" which was deleted. There's no reason to follow this up with "My post about XYZ was deleted--what does everyone think about the deletion?" While this is the navel-gazing chatfilter section of the site, if you want clarity on why your post or comment was deleted, the alpha and omega is the answer of the mods. Everyone else is an armchair quarterback. Which is not to say you'll get bad answers in the MeTa, but why do you need 30 people telling you that your question was chatfilter, instead of a one on one with the person in charge who deleted the question for being chatfilter?
The mods are pleasant to email with.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 7:10 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Though not in this case. If you have a beef with, or question about, the way the mods have manhandled your post or comments, just email them. If you have a beef with, or a question about, the community's (or a subset of the community's) participation in a thread, a MeTa might be appropriate, but I'd think twice, then a third time, about posting.
Think of it this way: your question was "XYZ? What does everyone think?" which was deleted. There's no reason to follow this up with "My post about XYZ was deleted--what does everyone think about the deletion?" While this is the navel-gazing chatfilter section of the site, if you want clarity on why your post or comment was deleted, the alpha and omega is the answer of the mods. Everyone else is an armchair quarterback. Which is not to say you'll get bad answers in the MeTa, but why do you need 30 people telling you that your question was chatfilter, instead of a one on one with the person in charge who deleted the question for being chatfilter?
The mods are pleasant to email with.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 7:10 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
IMO, "you should have emailed the mods rather than posting a MetaTalk" is, while sometimes appropriate, overused in general.
That sounds like a green light for encouraging 'Why was my post deleted?' threads. Encouraging people to email the mods under those circumstances saves a lot of potential issues.
Besides which, the outcome of this thread is the same: Jessamyn answered it, you agreed with the conclusion, so I'm unclear what point you're trying to make here.
posted by panboi at 7:11 AM on November 11, 2011
That sounds like a green light for encouraging 'Why was my post deleted?' threads. Encouraging people to email the mods under those circumstances saves a lot of potential issues.
Besides which, the outcome of this thread is the same: Jessamyn answered it, you agreed with the conclusion, so I'm unclear what point you're trying to make here.
posted by panboi at 7:11 AM on November 11, 2011
2) Are straight men attracted to most of their female friends?
..is both unanswerable and offensive. Straight men are many things, with nearly infinite variety.
Agree with unanswerable (and therefore the deletion is fine by me), and I can see how the question could be offensive if it ended there. But it goes on to say "I know there will be no one answer to this question" so it acknowledges the variety of sexual responses among straight men. I'm someone who gets huffy pretty easily by stereotypes of men, but didn't find the question offensive personally.
posted by Dano St at 7:11 AM on November 11, 2011
..is both unanswerable and offensive. Straight men are many things, with nearly infinite variety.
Agree with unanswerable (and therefore the deletion is fine by me), and I can see how the question could be offensive if it ended there. But it goes on to say "I know there will be no one answer to this question" so it acknowledges the variety of sexual responses among straight men. I'm someone who gets huffy pretty easily by stereotypes of men, but didn't find the question offensive personally.
posted by Dano St at 7:11 AM on November 11, 2011
Hey Bearette - you can make any words a link to any page you want by highlighting them and clicking on the blue "link" button that's on the bottom right side of the comment field. Same goes for bold and italics.
Also can do the same by typing ctrl+i, ctrl+b, and ctrl+k for those three options.
posted by Think_Long at 7:14 AM on November 11, 2011
Also can do the same by typing ctrl+i, ctrl+b, and ctrl+k for those three options.
posted by Think_Long at 7:14 AM on November 11, 2011
Jessamyn answered it, you agreed with the conclusion, so I'm unclear what point you're trying to make here.
Not to ascribe specific motive to the mods, but considering that this MeTa was left open, it seems to be a forum (not a referendum) on proper questions. The outcome of the thread is everyone getting to understand the way people ask questions and why they ask them and how to ask them a little better, not a ruling from on high.
posted by griphus at 7:16 AM on November 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Not to ascribe specific motive to the mods, but considering that this MeTa was left open, it seems to be a forum (not a referendum) on proper questions. The outcome of the thread is everyone getting to understand the way people ask questions and why they ask them and how to ask them a little better, not a ruling from on high.
posted by griphus at 7:16 AM on November 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
A better way to phrase the question: "Anecdata aside, have there been any reputable studies dealing with romantic attraction to friends of the opposite sex, and, in particular, men to their women friends? Are statistics available on this subject?"
This would actually make an interesting question. I wonder how it would vary from country to country or even within a country.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:25 AM on November 11, 2011
You might want to take a look at this documentary done on the subject in late-1980s New York City.
posted by griphus at 7:30 AM on November 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by griphus at 7:30 AM on November 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
Also can do the same by typing ctrl+i, ctrl+b, and ctrl+k for those three options.
It's ctrl-u (or command-u for those of us on Macs) to get the URL box; it was switched to retain the normal ctrl-k functionality.
posted by Forktine at 7:31 AM on November 11, 2011
That sounds like a green light for encouraging 'Why was my post deleted?' threads.
That was not my intention, and if one's question is solely "why was my post deleted," I agree that's more appropriate for direct mod contact than a MetaTalk thread.
However, if the intent is "I would like to have a community discussion about whether this deletion was appropriate," (which bearette's followup makes clear was the intention here, even if it wasn't clear in the original post) it's entirely copacetic to start a MeTa thread. Now, it seems that about 98% of the time community consensus is "yes, the deletion was appropriate," but even that is valuable because it confirms for the OP that the mods were acting in accordance with the wishes of the greater community.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:37 AM on November 11, 2011
That was not my intention, and if one's question is solely "why was my post deleted," I agree that's more appropriate for direct mod contact than a MetaTalk thread.
However, if the intent is "I would like to have a community discussion about whether this deletion was appropriate," (which bearette's followup makes clear was the intention here, even if it wasn't clear in the original post) it's entirely copacetic to start a MeTa thread. Now, it seems that about 98% of the time community consensus is "yes, the deletion was appropriate," but even that is valuable because it confirms for the OP that the mods were acting in accordance with the wishes of the greater community.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:37 AM on November 11, 2011
I wish people would stop modding Meta as far as what constitutes a good question or not. The mods are perfectly capable of that.
It seems like every single Meta question lately has one of these three answers from the usual suspects:
You are dumb for asking this and you should flame out.
You should have used the contact form idiot.
I am not satisfied with your post, please explain what you hope to get out of it.
posted by smackfu at 7:39 AM on November 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
It seems like every single Meta question lately has one of these three answers from the usual suspects:
You are dumb for asking this and you should flame out.
You should have used the contact form idiot.
I am not satisfied with your post, please explain what you hope to get out of it.
posted by smackfu at 7:39 AM on November 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
Which is not to say you'll get bad answers in the MeTa, but why do you need 30 people telling you that your question was chatfilter, instead of a one on one with the person in charge who deleted the question for being chatfilter?
I think this is missing the point. The real benefit of posting to MetaTalk is that the other thousands of readers of the site can see the response from the mods too, and modify their future behavior based on that. Really, MetaTalk would be better for this kind of thing if it was more of a public version of the contact form, since you are right that the other 30 random people answering are useless.
posted by smackfu at 7:42 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think this is missing the point. The real benefit of posting to MetaTalk is that the other thousands of readers of the site can see the response from the mods too, and modify their future behavior based on that. Really, MetaTalk would be better for this kind of thing if it was more of a public version of the contact form, since you are right that the other 30 random people answering are useless.
posted by smackfu at 7:42 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
"I know there will be no one answer to this question..."
Once you said that you doomed your own question as chat filterTM
posted by Hey, Zeus! at 7:58 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Once you said that you doomed your own question as chat filterTM
posted by Hey, Zeus! at 7:58 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
For the record, btw, the deletion reason wasn't simply "unanswerable." It was "Sorry, but this is really pretty much an unanswerable question. The best you can do here is a poll, and that's not what Ask Metafilter is for."
If someone had tried to answer this question as asked by saying "[Yes/No], straight men [are/aren't] attracted to most of their female friends," there would have been many comments challenging either answer (and possibly a lot of angry posting and derailing), and the best that could have come from that is a bunch of people saying, "I personally am/am not attracted to most of my women friends," which, even if for some reason there was a clear majority of absolute yes/no personal answers, still wouldn't answer the question. It could only return an answer like X% of Mefites who identify as straight and male and who read and answer Ask Metafilter questions and who gave an unambiguous answer to this question are/aren't attracted to their women friends.
posted by taz (staff) at 8:00 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
If someone had tried to answer this question as asked by saying "[Yes/No], straight men [are/aren't] attracted to most of their female friends," there would have been many comments challenging either answer (and possibly a lot of angry posting and derailing), and the best that could have come from that is a bunch of people saying, "I personally am/am not attracted to most of my women friends," which, even if for some reason there was a clear majority of absolute yes/no personal answers, still wouldn't answer the question. It could only return an answer like X% of Mefites who identify as straight and male and who read and answer Ask Metafilter questions and who gave an unambiguous answer to this question are/aren't attracted to their women friends.
posted by taz (staff) at 8:00 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Straight men are not a series of programmed automatons who have one set of instructions on how to feel about female friends...
Speak for yourself.
posted by Trurl at 8:01 AM on November 11, 2011
Speak for yourself.
posted by Trurl at 8:01 AM on November 11, 2011
It seems like every single Meta question lately has one of these three answers from the usual suspects:
You are dumb for asking this and you should flame out.
You should have used the contact form idiot.
I am not satisfied with your post, please explain what you hope to get out of it.
I feel a little bit better reading these kinds of responses when I imagine the poster saying it while riding around on a Segway in a mall-cop outfit.
posted by SpacemanStix at 8:12 AM on November 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
You are dumb for asking this and you should flame out.
You should have used the contact form idiot.
I am not satisfied with your post, please explain what you hope to get out of it.
I feel a little bit better reading these kinds of responses when I imagine the poster saying it while riding around on a Segway in a mall-cop outfit.
posted by SpacemanStix at 8:12 AM on November 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
Furthering the dialogue here, and forgive the ignorance if this has been beat to death but why isn't there a dedicated 'chatfilter'? I'm visualizing this hypothetical 'chatfilter' as similar to other web forums that have an "Off topic" section.
I'm not saying there should or shouldn't be one and this is also going on the assumption that MetaTalk is more about discussing Metafilter 'things' for lack of a better word.
I'm guessing this just boils down to one of the following (which I see as the main reasons mods/management say no to this, that, or the other):
1) That's not what Metafilter is about.
2) It would cause a net gain of angst and grump and rage which leads to loss of userbase.
Initially it seems this could provide a nice dialog area but I can see where it would be problematic and a potential management nightmare. Thoughts?
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:15 AM on November 11, 2011
I'm not saying there should or shouldn't be one and this is also going on the assumption that MetaTalk is more about discussing Metafilter 'things' for lack of a better word.
I'm guessing this just boils down to one of the following (which I see as the main reasons mods/management say no to this, that, or the other):
1) That's not what Metafilter is about.
2) It would cause a net gain of angst and grump and rage which leads to loss of userbase.
Initially it seems this could provide a nice dialog area but I can see where it would be problematic and a potential management nightmare. Thoughts?
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:15 AM on November 11, 2011
1) That's not what Metafilter is about.
2) It would cause a net gain of angst and grump and rage which leads to loss of userbase.
Pretty much. If you fish around in the archives of this place from Back in the Day, you'll see lots of chattiness. This seemed to work okay, in the same way that fpps were often more personal-blog-post kinds of things than they are now, but mefi's much, much bigger now, and the chattiness stuff just doesn't scale well.
Regarding the deletion of this particular askme, the "What is the problem to be solved?" metric is a pretty good one, and of course "the problem is I'm curious" is a legitimate problem than can often be solved by asking metafilter. But yeah, the way the question was phrased was unanswerable, unless what you're looking for is opinions from mefites, based on their own experience. And that's not what askme is for.
posted by rtha at 8:22 AM on November 11, 2011
2) It would cause a net gain of angst and grump and rage which leads to loss of userbase.
Pretty much. If you fish around in the archives of this place from Back in the Day, you'll see lots of chattiness. This seemed to work okay, in the same way that fpps were often more personal-blog-post kinds of things than they are now, but mefi's much, much bigger now, and the chattiness stuff just doesn't scale well.
Regarding the deletion of this particular askme, the "What is the problem to be solved?" metric is a pretty good one, and of course "the problem is I'm curious" is a legitimate problem than can often be solved by asking metafilter. But yeah, the way the question was phrased was unanswerable, unless what you're looking for is opinions from mefites, based on their own experience. And that's not what askme is for.
posted by rtha at 8:22 AM on November 11, 2011
Probably over half the questions there are unanswerable in the sense being applied here, and are essentially polls: "Suggest a good ___." "Why did X do that?" They're not requests for answers, but for opinions. I don't see how the deleted question really differs from those in any fundamental way.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 8:25 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 8:25 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
taz, that seems to be taking the AskMe post really literally, more so than usual I think. I'm very interested in the question "how does my experience of attraction to women compare to the experience of other men" and would thus be interested in the reading the responses.
Similarly my wife asked me a question very much like the OP's the other day. I don't remember the phrasing well but after discussing it a bit it turned out to she was trying to answer a specific question: how likely is it that some guy she works with that she has sexual thoughts about also has sexual thoughts about her? So I think my wife would be interested in the responses as well.
So I think there is good discussion of this question to be had beyond a simple poll of AskMe that cannot produce anything beyond a useless percentage number. (Like I said I understand chatfilter goes bye-bye here and the question as posed meets the criteria of chatfilter.)
posted by Dano St at 8:28 AM on November 11, 2011
Similarly my wife asked me a question very much like the OP's the other day. I don't remember the phrasing well but after discussing it a bit it turned out to she was trying to answer a specific question: how likely is it that some guy she works with that she has sexual thoughts about also has sexual thoughts about her? So I think my wife would be interested in the responses as well.
So I think there is good discussion of this question to be had beyond a simple poll of AskMe that cannot produce anything beyond a useless percentage number. (Like I said I understand chatfilter goes bye-bye here and the question as posed meets the criteria of chatfilter.)
posted by Dano St at 8:28 AM on November 11, 2011
So I think my wife would be interested in the responses as well.
I meant to add here that I expect the OP's curiosity is likewise fired by a specific question but she chose to ask an abstract version of it to protect her privacy. Perhaps she could ask her more specific question anonymously.
posted by Dano St at 8:38 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I meant to add here that I expect the OP's curiosity is likewise fired by a specific question but she chose to ask an abstract version of it to protect her privacy. Perhaps she could ask her more specific question anonymously.
posted by Dano St at 8:38 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Monkey and rtha: thanks.
I didn't know about the adjunct site, perhaps this could be published a bit better but I understand the desire for isolation. Then again maybe I missed it in the FAQ as a new member. Cool discovery either way.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:46 AM on November 11, 2011
I didn't know about the adjunct site, perhaps this could be published a bit better but I understand the desire for isolation. Then again maybe I missed it in the FAQ as a new member. Cool discovery either way.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:46 AM on November 11, 2011
you can make any words a link to any page you want by highlighting them and clicking on the blue "link" button that's on the bottom right side of the comment field.
Nonsense. To make links, use anchor tags, as follows: "This is a <a href="http://example.com">link</a>." This will appear as "This is a link."
That's how sexy people whose friends are attracted to them do it.
I'm going to be so embarrassed if I've screwed up the formatting here somehow.
posted by longtime_lurker at 8:55 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Nonsense. To make links, use anchor tags, as follows: "This is a <a href="http://example.com">link</a>." This will appear as "This is a link."
That's how sexy people whose friends are attracted to them do it.
I'm going to be so embarrassed if I've screwed up the formatting here somehow.
posted by longtime_lurker at 8:55 AM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Probably over half the questions there are unanswerable in the sense being applied here, and are essentially polls: "Suggest a good ___." "Why did X do that?" They're not requests for answers, but for opinions. I don't see how the deleted question really differs from those in any fundamental way.
Yes, many askme questions are not ironclad fact questions. They aren't asking "What is the square root of 45?" But they are posing problems to which qualitative answers, opinions, and anecdotes can provide solutions. There might not be a single authoritative answer to "What restaurant in DC would be good for my picky vegan grandmother?", but the answers will almost certainly provide the information that the asker needs to solve the problem.
But that's different than a general chatty question about whether or not men have sexual desire for female friends. That's unanswerable, with a side bonus of fighty contentiousness.
posted by Forktine at 9:19 AM on November 11, 2011
Yes, many askme questions are not ironclad fact questions. They aren't asking "What is the square root of 45?" But they are posing problems to which qualitative answers, opinions, and anecdotes can provide solutions. There might not be a single authoritative answer to "What restaurant in DC would be good for my picky vegan grandmother?", but the answers will almost certainly provide the information that the asker needs to solve the problem.
But that's different than a general chatty question about whether or not men have sexual desire for female friends. That's unanswerable, with a side bonus of fighty contentiousness.
posted by Forktine at 9:19 AM on November 11, 2011
..is both unanswerable and offensive. Straight men are many things, with nearly infinite variety.
not offensive. not even a little bit. sheesh.
posted by Avenger50 at 9:19 AM on November 11, 2011
not offensive. not even a little bit. sheesh.
posted by Avenger50 at 9:19 AM on November 11, 2011
Some crush on all. Some crush on most. Some crush on some. Some crush on few. Some crush on none. It's a spectrum.
MORBO CRUSHES ALL
posted by kmz at 9:21 AM on November 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
MORBO CRUSHES ALL
posted by kmz at 9:21 AM on November 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
It's ctrl-u (or command-u for those of us on Macs) to get the URL box; it was switched to retain the normal ctrl-k functionality.
*sigh* Nobody respects good ol' "erase to beginning of line" Control-U anymore. No, I didn't want to bloody view source, Firefox. Even in Opera, I have to revert the keyboard scheme to older versions to retain that behavior. Grr, argh.
posted by kmz at 9:25 AM on November 11, 2011
*sigh* Nobody respects good ol' "erase to beginning of line" Control-U anymore. No, I didn't want to bloody view source, Firefox. Even in Opera, I have to revert the keyboard scheme to older versions to retain that behavior. Grr, argh.
posted by kmz at 9:25 AM on November 11, 2011
it turned out to she was trying to answer a specific question: how likely is it that some guy she works with that she has sexual thoughts about also has sexual thoughts about her? So I think my wife would be interested in the responses as well.
And to be really clear, if that's the way this question had been posed it would have been okay to ask. People could have asked about the situation, what data/evidence she has, whatever. Having a "how does this gender act in this situation" open-ended question is not really much more than an open invitation to stereotype without some sort of "why I'm asking" part it's outside of the purview of AskMe.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:28 AM on November 11, 2011
And to be really clear, if that's the way this question had been posed it would have been okay to ask. People could have asked about the situation, what data/evidence she has, whatever. Having a "how does this gender act in this situation" open-ended question is not really much more than an open invitation to stereotype without some sort of "why I'm asking" part it's outside of the purview of AskMe.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:28 AM on November 11, 2011
I wish people would stop modding Meta as far as what constitutes a good question or not. The mods are perfectly capable of that.
Likewise, I would assume they're perfectly capable of telling us just what you said if necessary...
posted by inturnaround at 10:02 AM on November 11, 2011
Likewise, I would assume they're perfectly capable of telling us just what you said if necessary...
posted by inturnaround at 10:02 AM on November 11, 2011
Hey, bearette!
I think you actually disqualified your own question by making it so general that it was only a hypothetical one.
A woman asked 'for gift ideas for men', which was also deleted, while, "What can I get for my brother, who likes cheddar cheese and squid," would stay, because it's both specific and an actual problem needing to be solved (Help me find squid-shaped cheddar cheese!).
But you dealt with generalities (gay men) AND add, "I know there is no one answer," which makes it clear you have no problem to solve and answers would be all over the map, with no real criteria for picking an answer.
It's like the difference between asking, "Who would win in a fight, a family of vampires or a horde of zombies*? and "I'm writing post-apocalyptic Twilight fanfic for NaNoWriMo. Would it be realistic for Edward and his family to successfully fight off a horde of zombies to save whatshername**?"
*Vampires. Unless they were shiny Mormon ones. Or the zombies were holed up in a private residence and the vampires didn't have an invitation to go in, in which case it's a stalemate, EXCEPT they could lure the zombies out with a live human brain. But if the house was officially abandoned or had no actual threshold, the vampires could conceivably enter anyway. You see how leaving things general leads to too many possible answers?
**Of course not.
posted by misha at 12:52 PM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think you actually disqualified your own question by making it so general that it was only a hypothetical one.
A woman asked 'for gift ideas for men', which was also deleted, while, "What can I get for my brother, who likes cheddar cheese and squid," would stay, because it's both specific and an actual problem needing to be solved (Help me find squid-shaped cheddar cheese!).
But you dealt with generalities (gay men) AND add, "I know there is no one answer," which makes it clear you have no problem to solve and answers would be all over the map, with no real criteria for picking an answer.
It's like the difference between asking, "Who would win in a fight, a family of vampires or a horde of zombies*? and "I'm writing post-apocalyptic Twilight fanfic for NaNoWriMo. Would it be realistic for Edward and his family to successfully fight off a horde of zombies to save whatshername**?"
*Vampires. Unless they were shiny Mormon ones. Or the zombies were holed up in a private residence and the vampires didn't have an invitation to go in, in which case it's a stalemate, EXCEPT they could lure the zombies out with a live human brain. But if the house was officially abandoned or had no actual threshold, the vampires could conceivably enter anyway. You see how leaving things general leads to too many possible answers?
**Of course not.
posted by misha at 12:52 PM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
misha: ""Who would win in a fight, a family of vampires or a horde of zombies*? "
Twilight vampires, Anne Rice vampires, True Blood vampires, Being Human vampires or Buffy vampires?
posted by zarq at 1:00 PM on November 11, 2011
Twilight vampires, Anne Rice vampires, True Blood vampires, Being Human vampires or Buffy vampires?
posted by zarq at 1:00 PM on November 11, 2011
Who would win in a fight, a family of vampires or a horde of zombies*?
There was a comic about that: Last Blood - After zombies take over the Earth, vampires must protect the last surviving humans so they can live off their blood.
posted by nooneyouknow at 1:31 PM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
There was a comic about that: Last Blood - After zombies take over the Earth, vampires must protect the last surviving humans so they can live off their blood.
posted by nooneyouknow at 1:31 PM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Ira Glass's mom wrote a book about infidelity, and various blurbs about it suggest that there are surveys and studies out there about being attracted to friends.
posted by MonkeyToes at 2:13 PM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by MonkeyToes at 2:13 PM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Who would win in a fight, a family of vampires or a horde of zombies*?
Vampires are bloody useless; of course they'd lose. They'd lose in a fight with my mum. She'd just knock their stupid teeth out, bang, job done. Seriously, I do not get vampires at all. They're emaciated Goth pussies with joke-shop fangs. How the hell can anyone find them either scary or impressive?
Wait... is this a sex thing? Ah shit, I always forget about that stuff. And no wonder, at my age.
posted by Decani at 2:26 PM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Vampires are bloody useless; of course they'd lose. They'd lose in a fight with my mum. She'd just knock their stupid teeth out, bang, job done. Seriously, I do not get vampires at all. They're emaciated Goth pussies with joke-shop fangs. How the hell can anyone find them either scary or impressive?
Wait... is this a sex thing? Ah shit, I always forget about that stuff. And no wonder, at my age.
posted by Decani at 2:26 PM on November 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Astronauts vs cavemen, go! (No, they don't have weapons.)
posted by kmz at 2:37 PM on November 11, 2011
posted by kmz at 2:37 PM on November 11, 2011
It's like the difference between asking, "Who would win in a fight, a family of vampires or a horde of zombies*? and "I'm writing post-apocalyptic Twilight fanfic for NaNoWriMo. Would it be realistic for Edward and his family to successfully fight off a horde of zombies to save whatshername**?"
Not the best example. Science has already answered this question. Vampires win as long as the vampire: zombie ratio doesn't exceed 1:60.
posted by _cave at 3:07 PM on November 11, 2011
Not the best example. Science has already answered this question. Vampires win as long as the vampire: zombie ratio doesn't exceed 1:60.
posted by _cave at 3:07 PM on November 11, 2011
But it goes on to say "I know there will be no one answer to this question" so it acknowledges the variety of sexual responses among straight men. I'm someone who gets huffy pretty easily by stereotypes of men, but didn't find the question offensive personally.
I'm not offended by it either, but I'm glad it was deleted since it was an open-ended call for stereotyping. The OP said in a follow-up comment that she was "stereotyping." Her word. So, if questions that simply ask for stereotypes about men (or women, etc.) get deleted, that explains why the question got deleted. There's no need for anyone to jump through hoop of "I'm truly offended!"
posted by John Cohen at 3:48 PM on November 11, 2011
I'm not offended by it either, but I'm glad it was deleted since it was an open-ended call for stereotyping. The OP said in a follow-up comment that she was "stereotyping." Her word. So, if questions that simply ask for stereotypes about men (or women, etc.) get deleted, that explains why the question got deleted. There's no need for anyone to jump through hoop of "I'm truly offended!"
posted by John Cohen at 3:48 PM on November 11, 2011
Also can do the same by typing ctrl+i, ctrl+b, and ctrl+k for those three options.
It's ctrl-u (or command-u for those of us on Macs) to get the URL box; it was switched to retain the normal ctrl-k functionality.
gah. When did pb start to make changes without running them by me first? The nerve!
posted by Think_Long at 5:36 PM on November 11, 2011
It's ctrl-u (or command-u for those of us on Macs) to get the URL box; it was switched to retain the normal ctrl-k functionality.
gah. When did pb start to make changes without running them by me first? The nerve!
posted by Think_Long at 5:36 PM on November 11, 2011
I kind of got the sense reading that question that there was a real, underlying question that the poster had chosen not to reveal. Like, "Am I a jerk for crushing on my friends?" or "Does this particular friend want to bone me?" (If I'm right, a good rule of thumb might be that you should try to ask the question you actually want to ask instead of a weird abstracted hypo.)
posted by J. Wilson at 6:25 PM on November 11, 2011
posted by J. Wilson at 6:25 PM on November 11, 2011
- a friend the guy seeks to spend one-on-one time with
Yes, to answer your first question. And one reason the question is mired is because "straight" is self-reported and often uncertain.
posted by Brian B. at 9:03 PM on November 11, 2011
Yes, to answer your first question. And one reason the question is mired is because "straight" is self-reported and often uncertain.
posted by Brian B. at 9:03 PM on November 11, 2011
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posted by crunchland at 6:26 AM on November 11, 2011 [2 favorites]