Fly your favorite flag February 27, 2012 9:49 PM   Subscribe

If I flag a comment, I can choose one of several default options. One of the options is "fantastic comment", and the others are terrible. Why can't I choose "fantastic" when I favorite a comment?

I mean, why aren't there a whole bunch of default options when I favorite a comment? Sometimes I want to favorite the comment in the sense of Internet Explorer Favorites, like bookmarks, and other times I want to favorite the comment as an "attaboy". Why give me options to flag, including the confusing "fantastic" option, without giving me options to favorite?
posted by twoleftfeet to Feature Requests at 9:49 PM (148 comments total) 1 user marked this as a favorite

That would be similar to Facebook's "Like" button and there is a very strong correlation between Metafilter being very much unlike Facebook and Metafilter being a good thing.
posted by Saydur at 9:53 PM on February 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


So... Metafilter is deliberately confusing and that's a good thing?
posted by twoleftfeet at 9:55 PM on February 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


You know on those blogs where they post a picture of a hunk of metal or some intricate instrument and solicit people's guesses on what it's function is/was? Favorites are like those things. They work in one very specific way that's just as likely totally obsolete and so they are just this hunk of a thing that people cram up against a door or hold down sheets on the desk with it or keep it round to pound in tent stakes or whatever. If you want a tool for the job of sorting your favorite stuff on metafilter, use bookmarks. Your browser's or the cloud's or whatever.

Favorites are just, like, this thing, man.
posted by carsonb at 9:55 PM on February 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


... whereas flags are a form of communication between the user and the moderator, therefore benefit from some further specification.
posted by carsonb at 9:56 PM on February 27, 2012


(Also, if I may triple-comment here, it seems as though you may not have spent as much time as you should have reading up on the favorites tag here in MeTa, twoleftfeet.)
posted by carsonb at 9:58 PM on February 27, 2012


you may not have spent as much time as you should have reading up on the favorites tag here in MeTa, twoleftfeet.

Well, that's probably true. I haven't even finished reading War and Peace, so I may not have read every Metafilter FAQ out there. But I did read this, which says The fantastic post flag alerts the admins to particularly good posts or comments. which seems all about alerting the mods, but why shouldn't my favorites also have a similar flexibility, for alerting or reminding me?
posted by twoleftfeet at 10:03 PM on February 27, 2012


More seriously, I recall there being a few issues with favorite-mongering and inflating the meaning of favorites enough as it is already. It's more of a bookmark system with numbers to identify the "Whoa this comment really resonates with people" effect rather than comment rating in the vein of most community contribution sites or social media.

If you're saying you want a way to categorize your own favorites for your own reference, then what you want is a pony. Maybe something categorized but in a way that only the individual user can see so it doesn't become a karma system?
posted by Saydur at 10:07 PM on February 27, 2012


When I bookmark things in Firefox I see a box labelled "Tags" that I've never used. I imagine other browsers have something similar. Using that sort of feature you tag away to your little heart's content and has the bonus feature of not requiring any change to the site.

Bookmark Tags. Read up, I suspect you're gonna need 'em.
posted by barnacles at 10:10 PM on February 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


I think you're asking about the same thing that was discussed here, right?

As far as the fantastic flag goes, the main utility there is as an alert to things that we might feature on the front page sidebar, or maybe mention in the podcast.
posted by taz (staff) at 10:11 PM on February 27, 2012


I have a theory that orthogonality is easier to work on and easier for the individual user to use, but lack of it is more comfortable for people, strengthens relationships between users and retards new user adoption of the site.* So, cleanly dividing flagging and favorites would be easier for you and probably the mods in a few ways but would make MeFi a little colder and do a way with a bit of the Stockholm Syndrome that keeps everyone together and assists with new user assimilation into the community.

*Unless the community is the developers themselves, a la unix, the king of orthogonal design.
posted by michaelh at 10:12 PM on February 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


The favorites feature here is a simple switch and it's not going to work for every purpose. If you need favorites to be something more, you could try using an outside service. Every post and comment has a unique public URL, so you could try adding things you find 'fantastic' and would use that designation for at a bookmarking service like Pinboard. That would be a space to organize things more thoroughly and include notes about each URL.

If you'd like to use your existing batch of favorites to seed your Pinboard (or other link-organizing service) you can export your favorites and then import that file at the bookmarking service.
posted by pb (staff) at 10:13 PM on February 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


I think you're asking about the same thing that was discussed here, right?

I don't know. Maybe. Should I read that whole thread?

To me, "flagging" has an essentially negative connotation. Like in American Football. You get a flag when something goes wrong. On the other hand, "favoriting" has an essentially positive connotation., So I think, purely as user interface design, that "fantastic comment" doesn't belong under the "flag" menu.
posted by twoleftfeet at 10:17 PM on February 27, 2012


Metafilter: deliberately confusing and that's a good thing.
posted by The Whelk at 10:17 PM on February 27, 2012 [5 favorites]


I don't know. Maybe. Should I read that whole thread?

If you're going to have the same discussion we've already had, then yes.
posted by Justinian at 10:20 PM on February 27, 2012


What you're possibly missing is that the two serve different purposes:

Favorites: an aid to the user.
Flags: an aid to the mods.

Once you know that, it makes reasonable sense.
posted by Pinback at 10:21 PM on February 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


If I remember my MetaFilter history, flagging was added before favorites. So while it has always primarily been used to point out trouble spots to the site admins, it was also used to point out something fantastic so it could be considered for inclusion in the sideblog. Once favorites were added it sort of took on that role of pointing out things the community found interesting on the Popular page.

Admins see the fantastic post and comment flags in a separate space from the other flags and I think it does still help point out things the community finds extraordinary. It's just that admins now have the additional public list of things that are being favorited.

So as others have mentioned, yeah, favorites are public for everyone to see. Flags are a private note to the site admins.
posted by pb (staff) at 10:25 PM on February 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


favorites are public for everyone to see. Flags are a private note to the site admins

But who says "OMG, this is a FANTASTIC COMMENT! I really think it's great! Please don't tell anybody else?"
posted by twoleftfeet at 10:30 PM on February 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


Well, the idea is that the site admins who are able to post to the sideblog will feature the post or comment they're flagging as fantastic—which will show it on the front page of the site in the sidebar. So by alerting the admins they are potentially telling others.
posted by pb (staff) at 10:32 PM on February 27, 2012

But who says "OMG, this is a FANTASTIC COMMENT! I really think it's great! Please don't tell anybody else?"
As they already said, "fantastic" flags play a part in what gets posted to the sidebar on the main page.
So I think, purely as user interface design, that "fantastic comment" doesn't belong under the "flag" menu.
I think you should consider the possibility that what was intuitive to you would be substantially more obtuse and bizarre to, perhaps, the majority of users. Which is fine! But now you know what flags are and what favorites are, so you're all set for the future.
posted by kavasa at 10:34 PM on February 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


You know, for the most part I've given up on seeing any of my ponies win a race, but I still put them in a post. That's horse-racing slang, if you don't already know.

You know this... the Favorites thing was added after the Flagging thing, but "Fantastic Comment" is a hack that, in the long run, doesn't really belong in the dropdown menu for flags. Right?
posted by twoleftfeet at 10:37 PM on February 27, 2012


Why not? Flags are just a way to interact with the mods. For both good and bad comments.
posted by Justinian at 10:39 PM on February 27, 2012


Flags are just a way to interact with the mods. For both good and bad comments.

But favorites are public. Why shouldn't FANTASTIC COMMENT flags be public? Really, who wants to keep that message private? If the purpose is to get a comment in the sidebar, who is trying to keep that message private?
posted by twoleftfeet at 10:42 PM on February 27, 2012


My innate need to explain things is doing battle with my inability to figure out what exactly isn't clear about the way this works.

Let me have a bash.

Favorites (which different people use for different purposes, including but not limited to onsite bookmarking, showing support or agreement, or rewarding other users for clever or amusing contributions) are yours to do with as you like.

Flags are directed toward the moderators, when you wish to bring something to their attention.

That's all, really. It's relatively elegant in its deliberate simplicity.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:54 PM on February 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


Which I see Pinback has already said, in fewer words, so I'm now even more uncertain what is unclear, and so I leave the Noble Task of Elucidation to others.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:56 PM on February 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


Okay, so this is actually a different request than the post. Now you are asking that "fantastic comment" flags be made public. This is something that Matt can consider, but probably already has... a lot. There are many, many, many, many Metatalk posts about how favorites themselves affect the site dynamic, and what you are talking about is basically another element that would cause a lot of concern for many users here.

If Fantastic Comments were used this fashion, then the nature of what gets flagged that way would change dramatically. As it is, the quality of what amasses a lot of Fantastic flags is very, very high, because they are not visible. This flag really works perfectly for its intended purpose, and is pretty much not abused at all.

If this were a public facing list its nature would change, and there would be a lot of Fantastic Comment flagging for reasons that are more like what Favorites are used for now. Then we'd have to come up with some sort of flag just to the moderators to indicate particular extra-outstanding comments.
posted by taz (staff) at 10:56 PM on February 27, 2012 [6 favorites]


" many, many, many, many Metatalk posts "

That is just too many manys

crap, I'm not sure that "manys" is even a word!
posted by HuronBob at 11:02 PM on February 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


Manys, manies, manii, manes, manipodes, manifolds... So many many choices in plurals... So few few that are valid.
posted by frimble at 11:06 PM on February 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


the quality of what amasses a lot of Fantastic flags is very, very high, because they are not visible

I'm going to defer to your experience, because I certainly can't tell how many "fantastic comment" flags you see.

But again, this is a benefit the site derives from deliberate obscurity, and I think that ultimately that is bad user interface design.

I know I under-favorite because, for the most part, I want to be able to recall specific comments later - so I'm bookmarking - and if I favorite everything I like I won't be able to find the ones I want to recall. So I'm arguing for a more flexible favoriting system.

And again, not one of my ponies has ever won a race. But they have such nice furry manes and I love them anyway.
posted by twoleftfeet at 11:08 PM on February 27, 2012


many squared, but more than that.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:08 PM on February 27, 2012


So... Metafilter is deliberately confusing and that's a good thing?

There's nothing confusing about favorites. Is it your favorite? Then click the plus. If not, don't.

To me, "flagging" has an essentially negative connotation. Like in American Football. You get a flag when something goes wrong.

Perhaps we need to add pennants, as well.
posted by The World Famous at 11:14 PM on February 27, 2012


Is it your favorite? Then click the plus. If not, don't.

Oh nonsense. The same logic would say "do you want to flag it? Then click on the exclamation mark. If not, don't."

But there's a dropdown menu for flagging and there isn't one for favoriting.
posted by twoleftfeet at 11:22 PM on February 27, 2012


We're not going to get into making an internal full-featured bookmark utility because there are a ton of third party sites, plugins, and apps that do exactly this, full-time, as their whole raison d'ĂȘtre.

pb is just one person with a lot on his plate, and trying to customize the favorites function to suit the personal preferences of each and every user isn't the best use for his time, and isn't happening. I know you think that the way you'd like it makes the most sense and would work great for everyone, but several thousand other users also feel like their way would be best and most logical... and we are just not in a position to satisfy all that.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:28 PM on February 27, 2012


Oh nonsense. The same logic would say "do you want to flag it? Then click on the exclamation mark. If not, don't."

No, the logic, as applied to flags, would be "do you want to notify the mods of one of the specific items in the drop-down flag menu? Then click on the exclamation mark and select the information that you wish to convey to the mods."
posted by The World Famous at 11:38 PM on February 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


I don't think I've ever flagged anything. I gotta check this out.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:51 PM on February 27, 2012


Shit, can't unflag. Sorry mods.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:53 PM on February 27, 2012


flagged as self-flagellation.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:54 PM on February 27, 2012 [5 favorites]


Sometimes I feel
Like I've been tied
To the whipping post.
posted by twoleftfeet at 12:36 AM on February 28, 2012


Good lord I feel like I'm flagging.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 12:43 AM on February 28, 2012


There's very little difference between a flagging and a flogging.
posted by twoleftfeet at 12:52 AM on February 28, 2012


Metafilter: deliberately confusing and that's a good thing."

Damn Skippy.

twoleftfeet writes "But favorites are public. Why shouldn't FANTASTIC COMMENT flags be public? Really, who wants to keep that message private? If the purpose is to get a comment in the sidebar, who is trying to keep that message private?"

Metafilter does not need more bloody score keeping. Favourites are bad enough, another metric for gaming would be a detriment to the site.
posted by Mitheral at 12:56 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


I really want a way of keeping my private bookmark-like favorites in a different bucket from my FANTASTIC COMMENT favorites. I hear the earlier argument that Metafilter is not a bookmarking site and there are other services that do that, but I don't want to use Metafilter as a general bookmarking site. I just want to bookmark specific content that appears on Metafilter and be able to recall it at Metafilter. Many sites do this already. Recipe sites do this, for example. The server load is exactly the same as the load needed to store public favorites, or quite a bit less.

And yes, I demand that every available resource be diverted to making my wish come true. I paid five bucks for this, after all.
posted by twoleftfeet at 1:15 AM on February 28, 2012


Sigh.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:53 AM on February 28, 2012


Sigh.
posted by twoleftfeet at 2:22 AM on February 28, 2012


Sigh.
posted by nobody at 2:40 AM on February 28, 2012


One Sigh fits all.
posted by twoleftfeet at 2:45 AM on February 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


But favorites are public. Why shouldn't FANTASTIC COMMENT flags be public? Really, who wants to keep that message private? If the purpose is to get a comment in the sidebar, who is trying to keep that message private?

I think what you're not groking is that there is a substantial chunk of this community that would prefer that we not have favorites at all, because they think of the site as a giant conversation, and they think that having favorites helps turn the site from a conversation we're all having as equals into a game with points, and encourages people to shamelessly mug and rant and interject cutesy non-sequetors as opposed to you know, talking to the other people like normal humans. That favorites change conversation to performance.

Of course, there's a lot of pushback from others who would like to reward people for being awesome, since the awesome comments are one of the reasons people come to the site in the first place.

The current system is a compromise between these two goals --- a flag to poke the mods, like "hey, this is so awesome everybody should know about it" and an ambiguous private reminder that you valued a comment in some way, which very likely means that you liked it but may merely mean that you wanted to mark it for later perusal so don't get too uppitty, there, OP, i.e., a favorite.

To make the reward system more explict and unambiguous, as you propose, would probably cause the first group to lose their shit completely. People keep telling you to read giant threads about this because there keep being giant threads about this because people get super pissed about this. Which is of course because keeping the quality level of the conversation here high is a core goal of the site and anything which could potentially mess that up is something everyone's going to flip out about.
posted by Diablevert at 4:13 AM on February 28, 2012 [8 favorites]


I just want to bookmark specific content that appears on Metafilter and be able to recall it at Metafilter. Many sites do this already.

Most web browsers let you sort bookmarks into folders.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:16 AM on February 28, 2012


Tangentially, do we really need 8 different categories of flag? I get (and support) flags are for communication to the mods, but my understanding of Mod Workflow is basically you look at comments that accumulate a lot of flags, with less concern as to which flag the comment got.

So why not just two flags, "Good" and "Bad"?

Keep them private, keep favorites they way they are, keep offa my lawn.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 4:22 AM on February 28, 2012


While I'm spitballing, I would love a way to have anything I mark as a favorite show up in my Pinboard.in bookmarks. Is there any way to do that automatically?
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 4:23 AM on February 28, 2012


I just want to bookmark specific content that appears on Metafilter and be able to recall it at Metafilter. Many sites do this already.

Most web browsers let you sort bookmarks into folders.


I don't want to store my bookmarks for a particular site on my machine or in some equivalent online bookmarking service. I don't want the cognitive load of managing bookmarks from all over the web. I don't want to spend my time organizing folders that are supposed to capture my entire web browsing experience.

What works for me is to have bookmarks offloaded to the place where I bookmarked them. If you don't understand this then you don't understand how most websites work these days.

I need local bookmarks. If I frequently go to a music site, I want to remember recent music that I listened to at that site. If I go to a movie site, I want to recall things I saw at that particular site. If I go to a site like Metafilter, I want to ber able to recall what I did at Metafilter, because I am returning to the same location and I want to remember what happened there before.

It's really not possible, or at least not easy, for people to develop totally independent categorization and memorization systems for experiences in different domains. It's more natural for memories to be tied to the environment in which they occur.

Perhaps some people spend all their time at Metafilter, so an independent bookmarking system is equivalent to the site-native favoriting system. But most users will spend time in a wide variety of websites, and, again, it's really not possible to ask people to set up some kind of generalized foldering or bookmarking system to organize that variety.

My problem is that Metafilter's native bookmarking system is indistinguishable from the "favoriting" social media function. It's a user interface flaw. It really is.
posted by twoleftfeet at 4:46 AM on February 28, 2012


Well, what you want to happen isn't going to happen, hence the suggestion to use browser bookmarks.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:55 AM on February 28, 2012


what you want to happen isn't going to happen, hence...

I'm sure you would know, but I hope otherwise.
posted by twoleftfeet at 4:59 AM on February 28, 2012


Did you not see the comments from a mod and the programmer of the site in this very thread?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:01 AM on February 28, 2012


Amnesia?
posted by Burhanistan at 5:01 AM on February 28, 2012


twoleftfeet: I'm sure you would know, but I hope otherwise.

Dude, you can hope all you want, but I don't know what you don't understand about the fact that this has been talked about on several occasions and the answer is no. Why is it that more often than not, it feels like it's always your first day on this website?
posted by gman at 5:03 AM on February 28, 2012 [6 favorites]


twoleftfeet--Your tone is weirdly fighty in this thread. You've been insulting to people who don't agree with you (even if just mildly), and you keep insisting that you're right, even though you also insist you don't want to pay attention to any of the history that informs this debate*. It's pretty annoying and entitled.

*As a result, your jokes about how your ponies never win the race come off as passive aggressive in context.
posted by OmieWise at 5:05 AM on February 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


If you make a post on MetaTalk and label it "Feature Request" you pretty much have to assume that you're going to buck a very conservative audience that assumes that the way things are is the only way things will ever be.

History doesn't support that. I have no idea how these people got their past wedged into their present, or why.
posted by twoleftfeet at 5:11 AM on February 28, 2012


If you don't want to read the old threads, how 'bout reading this one, in which the mods have effectively said your request is not likely to be implemented?
posted by Ipsifendus at 5:14 AM on February 28, 2012


That was actually pretty funny, Ipsifendus.
posted by twoleftfeet at 5:17 AM on February 28, 2012


You should read the whole thing!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:26 AM on February 28, 2012


But again, this is a benefit the site derives from deliberate obscurity, and I think that ultimately that is bad user interface design.

There are design considerations in play here that are not user-facing. The mods want a way to filter for only the best of the best of the best comments, so they can consider those for the sidebar. That is the meaning of the Fantastic Comment flag; that is its purpose; and if it seems out of place from your perspective, that's because it isn't for you.

As to favorites. You want a more robust favoriting system that has tags and stuff, like what you've got on your browser, but specific to a given site. That's not really related to Fantastic Comment at all. That's about what you want, not what works for the mods. So drawing an analogy to Fantastic Comment doesn't help your case. It just makes you look out-of-touch.
posted by LogicalDash at 5:29 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


If you make a post on MetaTalk and label it "Feature Request" you pretty much have to assume that you're going to buck a very conservative audience that assumes that the way things are is the only way things will ever be.

I think I may have spotted part of the cause of your tone problem. You aren't a rebel advocating for a brave new world, you're just a guy on a community website trying to convince people that your way of doing things is the correct way of doing things. You're confusing the latter with the former, and as a result you sound less like an advocate and more like a self-centered user who only cares about his needs.
posted by OmieWise at 5:33 AM on February 28, 2012


I need local bookmarks.

You have them. They are called Favorites. If you want to call them something else, there is Greasemonkey. Many sites allow you to like or favorite or bookmark items on the site. Very few of them allow you to substantially subdivide these bookmarks or likes in any other actual way and MetaFilter is no different. MeFi has this system because we have two features that sort of sprung up independently to differing reception.

Flagging is for us. Favorites are for you. If you need more granularity in Favorites you can do that with one of the zillion tools available for such a thing.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:35 AM on February 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


The mods have said lots and lots that the way favorites work is not changing any time in the foreseeable future, and likewise flags.
posted by rtha at 5:36 AM on February 28, 2012


OmnieWise: Basically, yes. The problem is that the site does not operate in the way that suits twoleftfeets preferences. Clearly, then, the fault is with the site and not twoleftfeet. That's just SCIENCE, dawg.
posted by absalom at 5:42 AM on February 28, 2012


No, Jessamyn. Favorites are confounded with the social media thing. I'm upvoting or "liking" or something every time I just want to remember something. I don't have any way to separate the function of bookmarking from the function of attaboying.

The server load is the same. Allow a switch for "public" vs. "private" favorites.
posted by twoleftfeet at 5:54 AM on February 28, 2012




"Who do you think you are?! I AM!"

Ernie McCracken!
posted by gman at 6:01 AM on February 28, 2012


I don't have any way to separate the function of bookmarking from the function of attaboying.

If you need these things to be entirely separate then you can use one of the many other bookmarking sites to supplement the favoriting system. This is not something we're implementing. I am trying to set your expectations accurately. You will have to find another way to do what you want on the site.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:05 AM on February 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


you can use one of the many other bookmarking sites to supplement the favoriting system.

I tried to argue upthread that external bookmarking tools are not good solutions to this dilemma because they impose upon the user the requirement to maintain a separate categorization or memorization system independent of the location where the original experience occurs.

I want my memories in the place where I need them. That's what I meant by "local bookmarks".

Again, the server load for you is exactly the same. The only difference is that I won't have to decide if I want to Favorite something because, really, this is one of my favorite comments, or because I want to Favorite it, in the sense of Internet Explorer Favorites (bookmarks).
posted by twoleftfeet at 6:14 AM on February 28, 2012


You're continuing to argue for your feature of choice after being told several ways that it won't happen, and why.

Do you expect the mods to give in at some point?

Are you trying to paint them as the bad guys?

Or are you just arguing for the sake of it?
posted by LogicalDash at 6:15 AM on February 28, 2012


I don't have any way to separate the function of bookmarking from the function of attaboying.

then stop attaboying and just use them as a way to find things you want to remember.

It's a single button that does a single thing. If you want to do two things with it, then you're being foolish.

Asking for a pony, being told that you can't have a pony, and then continuing to make the case that you really really should have the pony you want only actually works if you're a spoiled little rich girl with soft-touch parents living on estate land which already has a barn to put the pony in.
posted by hippybear at 6:17 AM on February 28, 2012 [3 favorites]


also you should be named after a wart
posted by elizardbits at 6:17 AM on February 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


I want my memories in the place where I need them.

And you're not going to get that here. No amount of arguing that the server load etc blah blah is going to get you that. It's not a situation where Matt and the mods are going to go "Oh, we never thought of that! You're right - we can just technical zipzap the thingamabob and make favorites do what you want them to do!"

I tried to argue upthread that external bookmarking tools are not good solutions

...for you. Other people manage it fine, or manage it in other ways.
posted by rtha at 6:17 AM on February 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


I think if I'm going to make a Feature Request that I should actually argue for that feature. I'm not really demanding that the mods drop everything and rewrite a bunch of code and make this happen by tomorrow.

But really. How stuck in your ways are you when you get upset when somebody suggests some kind of change? What's the harm in talking about it?
posted by twoleftfeet at 6:21 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


It's been discussed to death here in various forms. You not onlyhaven't bothered to do the research and read the other threads on exactly this topic, but earlier comments in this thread make it clear you aren't interested in doing so.

Nobody is upset that you suggested the change. They're bothered that you aren't participating in the community even to the extent to acknowledge that this has been discussed previously and that you are acting put out that the response to your request is exactly what is has been every other time it's come up.
posted by hippybear at 6:24 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


You're not talking about it, you're aggressively rehashing the same old tired arguments that have been brought up as though they are brand new at least a dozen times in the past, and then completely ignoring the mods when they tell you that what you want will never, ever happen.

ftr I would love to see something like this implemented for favourites, but since I know it's not going to happen - as I have read all the other threads on it - I'm not going to sit here whining about it.
posted by elizardbits at 6:26 AM on February 28, 2012


How stuck in your ways are you when you get upset when somebody suggests some kind of change?

How full of yourself are you when you insist that you will not attend to the history of this matter, you will not grant your interlocutors the benefit of the doubt as to intelligence or motives, and you will not avail yourself of the several solutions that have been offered that are close to, but not identical to, your chosen solution?
posted by OmieWise at 6:26 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


But really. How stuck in your ways are you when you get upset when somebody suggests some kind of change? What's the harm in talking about it?

You suggested this change about ten comments ago and we explained that we're not going to do it. Now you appear to be continuing to argue for it which is I guess fine but I'm not sure who you are talking to at this point. I'm aware that the server load will be the same, that is not even one of the top five reasons why we won't do this. In short, redesigning a feature that is working more or less okay because one person is saying it doesn't work for how they use the site is not the way we do feature changes here. This site runs more conservatively than many and we usually change things only when people are really clamoring for a change. We also are really loathe to change certain site features because either we feel that people need to do whatever that thing is they want to do elsewhere [see: requests for subsites and/or MeMail enhancements] or because a change would be significantly more trouble than it's worth on our end [see: changing the way favorites work, getting an edit window that people can agree on] from more of a culture perspective.

Sure the server load is the same. Trust us, we know that. However the culture shift requires a significant amount of energy and effort on our part to design, implement and support the change you are demanding and we're not doing it. Sometimes in MeTa we'll say "Well we have these objections" and folks will come back with "Well have you considered these remedies" and we'll have a conversation about it and maybe arrive at a compromise. This is not one of those times.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:28 AM on February 28, 2012


jessamyn: You suggested this change about ten comments ago...

If only!

There must've been a lot of unconditional love in twoleftfeet's household, growing up.
posted by gman at 6:34 AM on February 28, 2012


we usually change things only when people are really clamoring for a change

Well, somebody has to be the first one to clamor.

To me, it's a thought experiment. I'm deeply embarrassed if I'm rehashing something that has been thoroughly thought out before. So just give me a direct link to a previous Metatalk thread where the possibility of separating the Favoriting function into "bookmarking" and/or "liking" has been completely discussed, a thread where all the pros and cons have been completely examined, and where sensible comments arrived at a genuine consensus. I will read that thread.
posted by twoleftfeet at 6:35 AM on February 28, 2012


You're trolling.
posted by OmieWise at 6:38 AM on February 28, 2012


You're not the first to clamor. You seem to not be getting that.
posted by rtha at 6:41 AM on February 28, 2012


Here is the most recent thread where favorites being both an attaboy and a bookmark system and that not working for the poster was discussed.

Here is another thread where the same thing was discussed in a slightly different form.

I'm sure more can be found by looking through the favorites tag for MetaTalk, but I'm not going to continue to do such research.
posted by hippybear at 6:41 AM on February 28, 2012


This isn't us discussing where to have dinner. This is you asking us to make s significant change to a giant website with a twelve year history and almost 50,000 active members and the answer we've given you is "No." You can do with that information whatever you want to.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:42 AM on February 28, 2012


I favorite frequently, so I want that to be super-fast and super-easy.

I therefore don't want to be forced to pick from a list of options every time I do it.

I personally have never flagged anything, though I've thought about flagging a few times. But if it's something I do rarely, it's fine for that to be a slightly more complicated procedure. And given people's propensity to get upset, it's probably good that they're asked to take a moment to think through whether what they want to flag really meets the criteria of being mod-worthy.

If people want to have the option of mark-as-liked versus bookmark-for-future-ref, I'm ok with that as long as they are two different things that are each a single click.

I personally don't need that distinction because if I really want to be sure of being able to find something again I will bookmark it with Pinboard. Better all round because that's purpose built for organizing and searching link collections.
posted by philipy at 6:45 AM on February 28, 2012


Twoleftfeet, you do realize that you're coming off as complete asshole, right? To the point where any decent points you might make will be ignored by people who agree with you because you're being such a complete asshole.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:52 AM on February 28, 2012 [8 favorites]


I really want a way of keeping my private bookmark-like favorites in a different bucket from my FANTASTIC COMMENT favorites.

Here's another option: only favorite things that you want to find again; don't use favorites just as a way of publicly expressing agreement. That's what I do, and it's working quite well for me.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:52 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


So just give me a direct link to a previous Metatalk thread where the possibility of separating the Favoriting function into "bookmarking" and/or "liking" has been completely discussed, a thread where all the pros and cons have been completely examined, and where sensible comments arrived at a genuine consensus.

Consensus is nice, but metafilter is a mod-ocracy, not a Occupy gathering.
posted by empath at 6:54 AM on February 28, 2012


Twoleftfeet, you do realize that you're coming off as complete asshole, right? To the point where any decent points you might make will be ignored by people who agree with you because you're being such a complete asshole.

Favorited and flagged as fantastic comment.
posted by slogger at 6:56 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


the answer we've given you is "No."

My God. Did you really think I wanted an answer?

I think there is no harm in thinking about Metafilter, in exploring different ways Metafilter could exist. It must be threatening for anyone who actually has to change the damn thing, but I'm looking five or ten years down the road, and wondering where it might lead. I like to put out ideas, maybe discuss them a little, and all that becomes a background for a possible future that will, ultimately, shape itself.

I didn't expect an answer. Please forget this conversation ever happened. Ignore everything we've discussed.

Because I've got to go. I'm leaving for the Vatican. I think "Karaoke Night with the Pope" will be very popular, but it's a bit of a hard sell...
posted by twoleftfeet at 7:02 AM on February 28, 2012


My God. Did you really think I wanted an answer?

No, I think you were bored without any little goats trying to cross your bridge.
posted by elizardbits at 7:05 AM on February 28, 2012 [17 favorites]


DID SOMEONE SAY "LITTLE GOATS"?
posted by griphus at 7:07 AM on February 28, 2012


My God. Did you really think I wanted an answer?

When your post itself contains two questions, and most of your early comments also contain them, all indications are that you want an answer.
posted by hippybear at 7:08 AM on February 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


Asking a question, or a series of questions, especially questions that have been gone over again and again, then acting as if its unfair to be burdened with having to actually look into what's happened in the past, then, when answered repeatedly, to be disdainful towards people who wasted their time trying to help you? That's a pretty fantastic low when it comes to being a good faith member of a community. Enjoy your karaoke.
posted by Ghidorah at 7:08 AM on February 28, 2012


I like how while the primary pastime of little goats is clearly "ALL THE PRANCING," the secondary one appears to be "push your friends off their perches."
posted by elizardbits at 7:09 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


This pony is apparently well and truly dead and I won't mourn but I have to say that this logic:

We're not going to get into making an internal full-featured bookmark utility because there are a ton of third party sites, plugins, and apps that do exactly this, full-time, as their whole raison d'ĂȘtre.

has never impressed me. Sites is sites, and sites should include functionality users like.
posted by mediareport at 7:10 AM on February 28, 2012


My God. Did you really think I wanted an answer?

You know we work here right? And that discussing feature requests is an explicit part of our job. And that if you were just spit balling it would have been kind to maybe mention that. Best of luck with your next sincerely-meant feature request.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:14 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


Actually, let me retract that. I understand the practical problems; I just have never liked the "third party" solution much. Reminds me of the transience of url shorteners, I suppose.
posted by mediareport at 7:14 AM on February 28, 2012


Motion that the mods receive an email each time a comment is favorited passed unanimously.
posted by Artw at 7:18 AM on February 28, 2012


In fact, anything can be a perch...
posted by frimble at 7:19 AM on February 28, 2012


Sites is sites, and sites should include functionality users like.

That doesn't impress me much either. That way lies Facebookism. There is no particular feature of Facebook that functions poorly, but they don't form a cohesive whole. You end up with enclaves of users that use a coupla features everyone else has forgotten about.

I just have never liked the "third party" solution much.

I'm afraid that ship sailed a long time ago. MeFi hosts its static content on third-party servers. It's all replicable, unlike url shorteners (most of them), so it's not hard to recover if a freak tomato accident removes all the mirrors. Some social bookmarking sites have that feature.
posted by LogicalDash at 7:19 AM on February 28, 2012


DID SOMEONE SAY "LITTLE GOATS"?

Baby goats jumping is my new favorite thing.
posted by inigo2 at 7:23 AM on February 28, 2012


That way lies Facebookism.

I dunno; I'm not seeing how a robust internal bookmarking system that most users use every day couldn't be part of a cohesive MeFi whole. But I get the point about the third party boat having sailed.
posted by mediareport at 7:30 AM on February 28, 2012


While I'm spitballing, I would love a way to have anything I mark as a favorite show up in my Pinboard.in bookmarks. Is there any way to do that automatically?

No, there's no off-the-shelf way to do it automatically. You could export your favorites and then import them at Pinboard on a regular schedule.

If you're handy with scripting you could set up a script to monitor your Favorite Posts RSS feed on a regular schedule and auto-post them at Pinboard with the Pinboard API.
posted by pb (staff) at 7:46 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


Again, the server load for you is exactly the same. The only difference is that I won't have to decide if I want to Favorite something because, really, this is one of my favorite comments, or because I want to Favorite it, in the sense of Internet Explorer Favorites (bookmarks).

Look, I'd be totally on board with adding full-fledged, open-ended tagging of favorites. I agree with you that this would be significantly better than telling people to do it with Pinboard/Delicious/their browser. The mods have said they're not willing to do it and that's fine. I don't know how you can say "the server load" for Metafilter would be "exactly the same."

And if your request is not for open-ended tagging of favorites but just to have a distinction between two supposedly different kinds of favorites, then I'm not following you. People have been complaining about the lack of such a distinction for years. It's never made sense to me. It's just nitpicking about the meaning of the word "favorite," but words have different meanings in different contexts. When you're using a computer interface, you can't assume the words mean the same exact thing it says in the dictionary. So, "favorite" as it's used on Metafilter just means anything you end up using favorites for. If you like something enough to favorite it, it's a favorite. There are different reasons it could be a favorite -- because it's a great story, because it expresses a thought-provoking idea you're not sure if you agree with, because it links to an article you'd like to read in the future -- but no matter what, it's still a favorite as long as you've favorited it. If it's not a favorite, don't favorite it.
posted by John Cohen at 7:49 AM on February 28, 2012


twoleftfeet: “It's really not possible, or at least not easy, for people to develop totally independent categorization and memorization systems for experiences in different domains. It's more natural for memories to be tied to the environment in which they occur.”

Wait a minute – it actually doesn't sound like you're asking for public fantastic flags or anything like that.

It actually sounds like you're asking for the ability to do tagging of your favorites to categorize them. That's something we've talked about before, and Matt & co were pretty receptive to the idea. I'm not sure where it ended up.

twoleftfeet: is that sort of more what you wanted? You keep talking about wanting the ability to categorize the stuff you save, and that seems like a perfectly understandable thing to want to do; I sometimes would like to be able to do it myself. But just making the "Fantastic" flag seems like a pretty meager way to do that unless all you want is two different categories. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to actually sort your favorites in a natural way? That's kind of what I would like.
posted by koeselitz at 7:50 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


It must be threatening for anyone who actually has to change the damn thing

This is some condescending shit, right here.
posted by Ipsifendus at 7:51 AM on February 28, 2012


pb: " If you're handy with scripting you could set up a script to monitor your Favorite Posts RSS feed on a regular schedule and auto-post them at Pinboard with the Pinboard API."

And you wouldn't even have to be handy with scripting if you wanted to use ifttt to do the same thing (monitor your Favorites RSS feed to automatically add a new public or private bookmark to Pinboard)

I think. I'm not a Pinboard user, but it looks like it's a channel you can use with those triggers, and I use RSS feeds to trigger similar things.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:57 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


If you're handy with scripting you could set up a script to monitor your Favorite Posts RSS feed on a regular schedule and auto-post them at Pinboard with the Pinboard API.

Alternately, IFTTT supports Pinboard, so you could take an input of an RSS feed and output it to Pinboard with that, with no real scripting required.
posted by frimble at 7:58 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


...I even previewed.
posted by frimble at 7:59 AM on February 28, 2012


I'm not sure where it ended up.

We were receptive at that time, and we even did some limited prototyping. We quickly realized we were going to need to duplicate many of the features of Pinboard/Delicious, and we felt like it was a much bigger project than we wanted to take on at the time.

If I remember correctly that work happened before the infamous November Favorites Experiment. Since that time we've been very hesitant to make any changes to the way favorites work. They're a contentious feature today in their current form, but we're at a sort of equilibrium with them as they are now. The bar is very high for making any changes to the way favorites work.
posted by pb (staff) at 8:11 AM on February 28, 2012


I like that the URL for the ifttt About page is ifttt.com/wtf.

Never heard of it before, but looks like a cool idea that can save me a fair bit of effort even though I am reasonably handy with scripting.
posted by philipy at 8:15 AM on February 28, 2012


Chalk me up as another person who finds favorites lacking. I also have a mixed usage of attaboys and bookmarks which is a pain to trudge through when I'm trying to find something specific.

I keep reading that one of the commonly accepted ways to solve this issue is to use a greasemonkey script. I'm not a big fan of this solution since greasemonkey scripts store data locally (well, the scripts I've used do this) and of course this makes the data something that I have to manage if I access this site via multiple machines.

That's pretty much a no-go for me personally. Then there's the inevitable time when you loose all that data. Ugh.

Involving a third-party solution also requires me to manage the data between sites.

The only thing I can think of is to create a sock puppet account meant to track bookmarks only. Then all the data is centralized at metafilter, but again it adds more work in the form of managing two accounts.

I've read the mods responses to all these threads for a while now, so I don't expect a change I guess. Just wanted to add my name to the list.
posted by MustardTent at 9:29 AM on February 28, 2012


If Fantastic Comments were used this fashion, then the nature of what gets flagged that way would change dramatically.

Yeah, people would start using it as favorites. Do the mods want to be "alerted" to good things at around the same rate things are currently favorited? Of course not.

This would even more confusion on top of the current favorites issue. Some would use it to mean approval of the post. Others would use favorites to bookmark a post. Then some would use fantastic comment as a way to express approval of the post, and then some would use flags for their original post of alterting a mod.

It would be messy, time consuming and ruin the utility of both features.
posted by spaltavian at 9:48 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


I also have a mixed usage of attaboys and bookmarks which is a pain to trudge through when I'm trying to find something specific.

I lean more towards bookmarks than attaboys, but once I realized that there's a search box on the detail page of your favorites that searches just your favorites, I find it's pretty easy to find what I'm looking for.
posted by gladly at 9:52 AM on February 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


You want, you don't want, you need, you don't like, you like, what works for you, you, you...good grief.
posted by desuetude at 10:07 AM on February 28, 2012


you, you, you...good grief....

Me is the only data point I have and can contribute to the discussion.

That doesn't mean that the system should be built for my personal needs, just that an assortment of data points should be taken into account.
posted by philipy at 11:08 AM on February 28, 2012


twoleftfeet: "I just want to bookmark specific content that appears on Metafilter and be able to recall it at Metafilter. Many sites do this already.

I don't want to store my bookmarks for a particular site on my machine or in some equivalent online bookmarking service. I don't want the cognitive load of managing bookmarks from all over the web. I don't want to spend my time organizing folders that are supposed to capture my entire web browsing experience.

I need local bookmarks. If I frequently go to a music site, I want to remember recent music that I listened to at that site. If I go to a movie site, I want to recall things I saw at that particular site. If I go to a site like Metafilter, I want to ber able to recall what I did at Metafilter, because I am returning to the same location and I want to remember what happened there before.
"

Isn't this exactly what on-line bookmark services do? If you organise your bookmarks per site, you will have access to all the bookmarks your heart desires for each site simply by navigating to the appropriate folder/tag/whatever. It's no more work to manage bookmarks from several sites in a single location than it is to manage them in multiple locations, surely? If anything, it would be less work, because you can go directly to the bookmark from wherever you are on the Web, without having to first load the relevant site, then work your way through whatever UI is provided to manage bookmarks on each site.
posted by dg at 2:13 PM on February 28, 2012


> That doesn't mean that the system should be built for my personal needs, just that an assortment of data points should be taken into account

An entirely reasonable attitude. Perhaps others could be so inspired?
posted by desuetude at 2:34 PM on February 28, 2012


I don't use favorites.
posted by ericb at 3:32 PM on February 28, 2012


Favorites are like facebook pokes; people use them for lots of different things.

(Except flirting via mefi favorite would be way too subtle.)
posted by madcaptenor at 5:38 PM on February 28, 2012


You mean, y'all "like" like me? *swoons*
posted by arcticseal at 6:26 PM on February 28, 2012


The flag options are not particularly comprehensive. It's been discussed before, and the recommendation is to flag, use the closest reason, and move on. The mods check out the flags, because they don't want to miss anything toxic or especially great.

Favorites do not need additional options.

I agree that it is fun to talk about possible changes to MeFi, but when it comes right down to it - Don't Fuck With My Metafilter. thanks.
posted by theora55 at 7:01 PM on February 28, 2012


I wish my attaboys were publicly viewable (as in, showing up next to the comment as part of the "favorite count") (but I don't care about looking back through them) and my bookmarky favorites were not publicly viewable (and I do want to be able to look back through them). I realize the solution is to attaboy people with Metafilter favorites and get all bookmarky with an external thingy, but I'm too lazy. Can everyone else please change to suit my desires? Thanks
posted by Jpfed at 9:44 PM on February 28, 2012


I thought in-site bookmarks were in fact the "old" and centralized online bookmarks/clippings a la delicious/pinboard/springpad/etc were part of the "new" social/antisocial web 2.0, so clearly I'm a bit confused. Now facebook-esque "likes" are new(ish), but then a lot of board software systems had up/down-votes pre-facebook, so maybe not so new?

Also, tiresome separate categorization systems seems to be exactly what you're avoiding by using a centralized bookmark system? One set of tags to rule them all, yeah?

Also also, the ability to search across all your bookmarks at once to find that awesome thing when you can't remember if you read it on MeFi or that awesome blog or the Economist, etc.
posted by clerestory at 12:24 AM on February 29, 2012


Hey guys! I'm back from the Vatican where my pitch - Karaoke Night with the Pope - went over like a lead balloon. Not dignified enough, or some shit, they said. Their loss... that place has no night life.

Anyway, I've come back to flag a dead horse. Perhaps it's just masochism, but anyplace that calls me an "asshole" for suggesting a change can't be all bad.

The issue is that the "Favorites" function is overloaded to include two functions. One is bookmarking, the other is signalling approval ("attaboying"). Historically, the expectation was that it would fulfill a bookmarking function, but the reality is that quite often it has an attaboying function. (Nobody says "I love that comment so much I wish I could favorite it twice" if they just want to bookmark it twice.)

I imagine a future where these two functions go their separate ways. It would certainly have to be sometime in the future, because there's no way it's going to happen anytime soon. I understand the need of site administrators to avoid sweeping reforms. So suggesting a change is different from demanding a change; the goal being to continue a slow background chatter that ultimately may benefit a moment when change is needed.

Third party generalized bookmarking systems have their benefits, but aren't necessarily a good solution for every bookmarking scenario. Many bookmarking services promote a social media aspect - that you share your bookmarks - and many also provide a more personal and private system for logging your web experience. My assertion is that Metafilter should do both.

More than most sites, Metafilter functions as a community. A comment that is interesting to me appears in a thread surrounded by other comments, all more or less relating to some initial FPP. When I want to recall that comment, I may not remember the exact wording or even reasonable keywords, but potentially a site-limited search could lead me to the thread. If I rip the comment out of its context and stick it in some third-party bookmarking service, I lose the connections that the community provides me.

It's worth chattering about , I think, even if it's been chattered about before. Many chatters might lead to a clamor, and, at some eventual time, that might lead to change.

Thank you for your attention.

You know, the Vatican wouldn't even go for Casual Fridays. Man, those guys need to lighten up.
posted by twoleftfeet at 1:53 PM on February 29, 2012


Nonsense. The Vatican already has Casual Fridays (mostly because it looks weird to eat a Filet 'o Fish when you're all dressed up).
posted by The World Famous at 2:23 PM on February 29, 2012


I lost so much money investing in Bob's Big World of Beef in India and Bob's BBQ Pork in Israel, that I'm thinking that fast food just isn't profitable anymore.
posted by twoleftfeet at 2:30 PM on February 29, 2012


but anyplace that calls me an "asshole" for suggesting a change can't be all bad.

That's not why Brandon called you an asshole.
posted by LogicalDash at 3:47 PM on February 29, 2012


I like the idea of tagging favorites but don't really use them enough to care much. I think the negative "why can't, why doesn't, this is confusing" framing of the post didn't help set the tone, and it got worse from there with increasingly passive-aggressive comments to the extent of "you can technically do X, why aren't you doing it" with the implication that either it was too intimidating a task or there was a conscious effort to thwart and confuse people, mua ha ha!

It reminds me of the occasional "why can't I have this pony, here's the pseudocode, it would be easy, let me give you a regexp" requests that crop up occasionally. I'm an IT guy and I sometimes catch myself attacking vendors with negative framing, like "why won't your cheesy software do X" when sometimes the friendlier "I need to accomplish Y, how do I do it" framing would be more accessible and "sweet" rather than "vinegary." And sometimes our end users do this too -- "why don't I have access to do X, that's not fair, why are you holding me back" when they've never needed to do X until now, and we're simply following the principle of least privilege.
posted by aydeejones at 5:30 PM on February 29, 2012


s/crop up occasionally/crop up/1;

[lulz]
posted by aydeejones at 5:31 PM on February 29, 2012


That's not why Brandon called you an asshole.

The unwelcome image of splitting asshole hairs.
posted by twoleftfeet at 5:36 PM on February 29, 2012


I may not remember the exact wording or even reasonable keywords, but potentially a site-limited search could lead me to the thread.

Site-limited searches are easily accomplished via Google: [search terms and keywords] site:metafilter.com

It even works for subsites: site:metatalk.metafilter.com, etc
posted by hippybear at 6:04 PM on February 29, 2012


The difference between "suggesting a change can't be all bad" and "treating your opponent with contempt" is a very broad hair.
posted by LogicalDash at 6:38 PM on February 29, 2012


Site-limited searches are easily accomplished via Google: [search terms and keywords] site:metafilter.com

That doesn't allow me to search only the Metafilter Favorites that I've made as bookmarks.

And calling someone an "asshole" is treating your opponent with contempt, by any reasonable measure.
posted by twoleftfeet at 10:14 PM on February 29, 2012


It needed to be said.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:32 PM on February 29, 2012


In point of fact, he didn't call you an asshole at all. He said you were coming of as one. That's not splitting hairs; every one of us is capable of coming off as an asshole. I know I am. And as unpleasant as it might be, if (or rather when) I happen to act like an asshole, I hope somebody's there to sigh and say: "Man, just so you know, you're really coming off as an asshole right now."
posted by koeselitz at 10:41 PM on February 29, 2012


I guess I'm just old-fashioned. My mother always told me "if you can't sustain a modicum of verisimilitude and compassion in your utterances then just shut the fuck up." She may have said that with different words, but the meaning was the same.

Getting from point A to point B in a civilized discussion needn't require argumentum ad hominem.
posted by twoleftfeet at 11:08 PM on February 29, 2012


I prefer "fuckface" anyway.
posted by Burhanistan at 11:16 PM on February 29, 2012


No. You're a fuckface.
posted by twoleftfeet at 11:17 PM on February 29, 2012


Sorry, mom.
posted by twoleftfeet at 11:17 PM on February 29, 2012


"if you can't sustain a modicum of verisimilitude and compassion in your utterances then just shut the fuck up."

That's kind of what I was getting at, yeah.

Getting from point A to point B in a civilized discussion needn't require argumentum ad hominem.

The ad hominem fallacy is when you dismiss an argument on the basis that the person who's making it is somehow bad, or unqualified, or something else that has nothing to do with what they said, but who they are.

We are talking about who you are--or rather, what kind of person you're presenting yourself as. We're doing this after your arguments have been addressed over and over.
posted by LogicalDash at 1:38 AM on March 1, 2012


Oh, and suggesting (facetiously or no) that your critics shut the fuck up is a bit "NO U".
posted by LogicalDash at 1:39 AM on March 1, 2012


We are talking about who you are--or rather, what kind of person you're presenting yourself as. We're doing this after your arguments have been addressed over and over.

The ex post facto post mortem of a post. The benefit of hindsight through the rear-view mirror of a Monday morning quarterback. The Final Reckoning of the reckless raconteur. The Last Word, which sits in Judgment of all previous comments, and by its Word, shall say, Truly, which is Right and which is Wrong.

You are Godly in your aspirations, Sir! And I commend you for it.

Condemn? sp?
posted by twoleftfeet at 2:31 AM on March 1, 2012


What? Are you saying that post-mortem analysis is invalid somehow?
posted by LogicalDash at 3:51 AM on March 1, 2012


no
posted by twoleftfeet at 6:20 PM on March 1, 2012


Alright, well, since you're not going to supply clarification on your own volition, the only other message I'm getting is, "If you criticize me, my opinions, or anything I do, I will ignore or make fun of you."

It's been kind of implicit through the entire thread. That's the contempt I was talking about.
posted by LogicalDash at 3:34 AM on March 2, 2012


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