…and I hate baseball August 3, 2012 5:08 PM   Subscribe

Isn’t coming into this thread to say "Photorealism sucks" and this one to say "I’m not into fashion, who cares what your jeans look like, quit being so shallow" pretty much the same as coming into a baseball post and saying you hate baseball?

The subject is clearly stated in the titles, you know what you’re getting. Is this a flagging situation and if so, what is the proper flag? Noise?
posted by bongo_x to MetaFilter-Related at 5:08 PM (118 comments total) 1 user marked this as a favorite

I'm not really into MeTa threads.

But this seems like one of those situations where it seems like it's way worse to come into a thread and say "I hate SLYT threads about kittens" then it does to come into the very same thread and say "Kittens! Yay!"

If it doesn't cause a derail, I don't see a lot of harm, but it sounds like you're really bummed out by the negativity or something? My mom would say, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." But I'm not sure if we need a flag for that.
posted by MoonOrb at 5:13 PM on August 3, 2012


Buncha turkeys.
posted by Burhanistan at 5:25 PM on August 3, 2012 [3 favorites]


It's boorish behavior, but it happens on every single thread. Everyone dislikes something, but unless you have a substantial comment to make about your dislike, it's not making the world a better place to leave an "X sucks" comment in a thread about X.

Some topics are worse for this than others. Try making a post about how much you love Comic Sans and see how far it gets you.
posted by ErikaB at 5:29 PM on August 3, 2012 [3 favorites]


I thought the jeans thread went pretty well, unless there were deleted comments I missed.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:31 PM on August 3, 2012


Eh, I wasn't saying photorealism sucked. I just thought it wasn't as impressive as people might think, because it was effectively just tracing using very good brush technique. Painting what you actually see and interpreting it photo realistically,which some people might have thought it was, would have been another kettle of fish.
posted by dunkadunc at 5:33 PM on August 3, 2012 [1 favorite]


Yeah, those are very much flagging situations. Now, that doesn't mean they're instant deletes - the photorealism one in particular seemed to have more substantive criticisms than a couple of the offhand "I don't care about jeans" remarks, and of course timing is always an issue. But flag early, if you can, and we'll clean up egregious stuff.

"Noise" is a perfectly good flag choice - it's probably the closest, although we're not picky.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 5:36 PM on August 3, 2012 [2 favorites]


I kind of knew that was the direction the discussion was going to go towards, with the photorealism thread. Many people have that reaction to photorealistic art like this, where it's almost purely a technical exercise. It's certainly not that amazing conceptually, but you've gotta admire the guy's skill. And I think that's all the artist is asking. There is certainly more artful photorealism painting out there, going back to the original photorealists. This guy's just trying to advertise, "I can paint shit so realistic!" I don't doubt that if he can paint these subjects with such care and attention to detail, he is no idiot savant and likely possesses excellent painterly skills. If he can do these, I'm sure he can handle more expressive subjects as well.

Unfortunately, it seems like some Mefites have to comment in every thread, even if to say that the post sucks. And it's a common Mefi wont to be contrarian and disagree. Even worse, I've seen enough art posts where there are like 5 comments all said and done that make me think that without the threadshitters, these posts wouldn't have any discussion at all.
posted by malapropist at 5:44 PM on August 3, 2012 [3 favorites]


It's boorish behavior, but it happens on every single thread.

Not every, but I consider it a victory when a post I make doesn't get any comments like that, and I was very pleasantly surprised I didn't get any "I never liked Seinfeld", "I never liked X-Files", "I never liked Mike Judge" or "I never liked Reggie Watts".
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:47 PM on August 3, 2012 [3 favorites]


It will be a long damned time before I make another minimalist decor post, I'll tell you that.
posted by Egg Shen at 5:51 PM on August 3, 2012 [6 favorites]


Thanks for the clarification. I wasn’t offended, just wondering if we could tone this thing down a little. I’m sure I’ve done the same thing, sometimes you can’t help yourself.

To be clear, I see a difference between "your favorite band sucks" and "I hate Rock bands". Just coming into a discussion and saying you don’t like the whole subject of the discussion just doesn’t seem that useful.

As I’ve said before, if we could cut out some of the "what, do you think you’re better than me?" comments there would be much less conflict. In the world. (And most of the minimalist decor discussion would be empty.)
posted by bongo_x at 6:17 PM on August 3, 2012


That jeans post was fine until people started assigning all kinds of freaky motivations to folk who don't care about fashion. For myself, I love looking at and reading about haute couture, but when people ascribe sadness and despair to me because I don't swank around in Elie Saab creations on a daily basis, well, I'm going to respond.

Although anyone who would like to procure me some Elie Saab gowns for the purposes of swanking about can feel free to do so. I can bring my own tiara!
posted by winna at 6:30 PM on August 3, 2012 [6 favorites]


Whoops can someone please change that to 'swanking' about because that completely changes the tone of that final sentence.
posted by winna at 6:31 PM on August 3, 2012 [10 favorites]


Egg Shen, don't worry too much about the Simple Desks thread comments; that was exactly the sort of site I will always click on for the sheer joy I get for hating on all the beautiful and likely non-functional spaces. Yes, part of me yearns for a clean sweet workspace, but the other part of me knows it would never happen (at least not to the Simple Desk extent), and so I pull up page after page of spartan desks in a cycle of self-loathing and class issues.

And then I bookmark it.

It's a powerful love/hate trainwreck, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted by redsparkler at 6:33 PM on August 3, 2012 [5 favorites]


Even worse, I've seen enough art posts where there are like 5 comments all said and done that make me think that without the threadshitters, these posts wouldn't have any discussion at all.

I know that saying 'Metafilter doesn't like X' makes no real sense because Metafilter is just thousands of individuals with differences of opinions and bad days and good days and whims and influences and etc., but Metafilter doesn't like post-1917 art at all.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:36 PM on August 3, 2012 [9 favorites]


Whoops can someone please change that to 'swanking' about because that completely changes the tone of that final sentence.

And made it much less interesting. Searching for spanking gowns...
posted by bongo_x at 6:37 PM on August 3, 2012 [1 favorite]


Here ya go, bongo_x. (Link is 100% NSFW!)
posted by mollymayhem at 6:47 PM on August 3, 2012


Metafilter doesn't like post-1917 art at all.

I blame it on that great war, the War To End All Art.

(I'm not part of that particular mindset, anyway. I like quite a bit of art made in the past century. And dislike quite a bit of it. But then, I dislike a lot of art, and like quite a bit of it, all around. I guess I subscribe to that old saw, "I don't know what art is, but I know what I like".)
posted by hippybear at 6:50 PM on August 3, 2012 [2 favorites]


...pretty much the same as coming into a baseball post and saying you hate baseball?

...or the same as coming into a GG Allin post and saying you hate GG Allin (for some weird ungodly reason)???
posted by item at 6:52 PM on August 3, 2012


Changed as requested, but I am leaving the change request up for the hilarity.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 6:52 PM on August 3, 2012 [14 favorites]


That looks uncomfortable in every possible way.
posted by maryr at 6:52 PM on August 3, 2012


My favourite is any post about anyone creative where they have the timerity ti talk about *gasp* getting payed. The monsters.
posted by Artw at 7:00 PM on August 3, 2012 [2 favorites]


That's GG Allin for 'ya.
posted by item at 7:01 PM on August 3, 2012


temerity.

Ugh, alway's tip you're editor, well... ;)
posted by infinite intimation at 7:21 PM on August 3, 2012


Even worse, I've seen enough art posts where there are like 5 comments all said and done that make me think that without the threadshitters, these posts wouldn't have any discussion at all.

Personally, I'd far prefer that to the threadshitters.
posted by zarq at 7:26 PM on August 3, 2012 [9 favorites]


Here ya go, bongo_x. (Link is 100% NSFW!)

Less gown-y than I was thinking, yet I’m not at all disappointed.
posted by bongo_x at 7:30 PM on August 3, 2012


Yeah, if you see something that you think is just pointless negativity flag it as "noise" or "derail" and the mods are sure to come take a look and make the call. Lord knows I've made some comments that have/should-have been axed on those grounds. I try to be better than that, but sometimes it slips out. It does no harm to flag even if you're not sure that you're being unbiased, I've found that the mods are pretty good about stepping back and being objective about whether or not a negative comment is pointless threadshitting or substantive criticism. I don't *always* agree with their call, but somebody's gotta make it and better them than me.
posted by Scientist at 7:34 PM on August 3, 2012


OK mollymayhem, now I need $289. Curse you.

Although why is the promo picture the Toothpaste Green version? Medical fetish, I guess? White with red trim would be the hotter choice there though, IMO.
posted by Scientist at 7:38 PM on August 3, 2012


It will be a long damned time before I make another minimalist decor post, I'll tell you that.

Which is why people make those comments.
posted by zamboni at 7:42 PM on August 3, 2012 [3 favorites]


Even worse, I've seen enough art posts where there are like 5 comments all said and done that make me think that without the threadshitters, these posts wouldn't have any discussion at all.

Expanding on my comment above... I postedthis about a week ago. When I clicked post, I actually thought to myself, "it has a 50% shot (or worse) of going south and being deleted." It's on I/P, it's a first person essay told from the perspective of an Israeli soldier who manned a Palestinian checkpoint. There are lots and lots and LOTS of reasons why the essay and supporting links would piss people off and start a huge argument. Hell, people could have seen what the subject matter and attacked the post in-thread without reading the links. Happens all the time. So I crossed my fingers and clicked the button.

The thread got 5 comments. Which I think is actually a win for any post about I/P. Because even though I'd much rather it had sparked a discussion, I admit being thrilled that the darn thing survived. Better that than a deletion.
posted by zarq at 8:08 PM on August 3, 2012 [5 favorites]


About 16 days ago I almost crashed my bike into someone in a GG Allin T-shirt. He walked right out of nowhere, and I was so surprised that I still remember it like a photograph. One wouldn't have been able to tell, though, if I was suffering from Long Butt, because I was both sitting and moving fairly quickly.
posted by kengraham at 8:09 PM on August 3, 2012 [1 favorite]


Artw, you don't have to write like James Joyce to be highfalutin, trust.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:19 PM on August 3, 2012


As Team Mod has said on more than one occasion, having few comments isn't the sign of a bad post. The point of MetaFilter is sharing great stuff you've found, and the chatter about it afterwards is secondary to having a chance to share great stuff you've found. Fretting because something you think was great only had 5 or so comments is pointless. You put it out there, people looked at it. That is the point.

(Okay, they are usually more terse than that, but that's pretty much what they've told me more than once and what I've seen them tell others.)
posted by hippybear at 8:32 PM on August 3, 2012 [1 favorite]


The mostly hostile reception of Pinterest You Are Drunk is an interesting case study. I think the mockery of someone else's mockery is well deserved.
posted by zamboni at 8:40 PM on August 3, 2012


When I win the lottery I am going to buy metafilter from mathowie and shit like this won't be tolerated. Also, Chick-Fil-A will no longer be covered under the health plan.
posted by cjorgensen at 8:53 PM on August 3, 2012 [4 favorites]


Not every, but I consider it a victory when a post I make doesn't get any comments like that, and I was very pleasantly surprised I didn't get any "I never liked Seinfeld", "I never liked X-Files", "I never liked Mike Judge" or "I never liked Reggie Watts".

is this where we make "I never liked your posts" comments?

totally not serious
posted by davejay at 8:59 PM on August 3, 2012


There's critical comments that provide context and a point of view, and then there's threadshitting. Often I find the former educational, even if I initially bristle, but the latter should be fucking killed with fire and the ground it grew from salted and sprinkled with cat piss.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:00 PM on August 3, 2012 [2 favorites]


It's the equivalent of people commenting in vegan threads saying it needs "moar bacon" or tortured animals.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 9:23 PM on August 3, 2012


There's critical comments that provide context and a point of view, and then there's threadshitting.

The difference being better lighting.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:50 PM on August 3, 2012 [4 favorites]


Honestly, it seems like even in a spirited debate, people don't take much time to look at the links, which makes me wonder how many people actually see the links that are barely commented on.
posted by malapropist at 10:07 PM on August 3, 2012 [1 favorite]


It's the equivalent of people commenting in vegan threads saying it needs "moar bacon"

I don't even peek at those threads. Even people I really like seem to get off on the HURF DURF VEGETARIAN stuff. It keeps me from having the MetaFilter I want and it became healthier to pretend those conversations are behind locked doors or something.
posted by mintcake! at 10:14 PM on August 3, 2012


Also: You will probably get a few favorites, but your hilarious declawed cat + circumcision + I/P joke sucks.
posted by mintcake! at 10:16 PM on August 3, 2012 [1 favorite]


A lot of the comments on that photorealism thread seemed to be reasonable criticisms of photorealism rather than simply "This sucks, I hate it", and I think such criticisms of a topic are to be expected and perfectly fine. Criticising is not the same thing as mindless negativity.

I don't hate baseball. Just baseball caps. They suck.
posted by Decani at 10:18 PM on August 3, 2012 [3 favorites]


Were the offending comments deleted from the threads? 'Cause I don't see anything especially noisy or deraily in those threads. What am I missing?

Also, this -- And it's a common Mefi wont to be contrarian and disagree. -- is completely wrong. Completely. ;)
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 10:18 PM on August 3, 2012


Yes, yes it is.

I don't hate baseball. Just baseball caps. They suck.

Baseball caps are designed explicitly to handle a unique problem set -- they are built to carefully shade your eyes most of the time, but to >explicitly not do so if you have to look up at the sky suddenly.

They do so by falling off. This is by design. If you need a cap that doesn't fall off when you look around, you do not want a baseball cap.

If you need to look at the sky on certain occasions with nothing blocking any part of your vision, and you can reset your vision guards after you do so, the baseball cap is carefully optimized to handle exactly that situation -- which shows up frequently in the game of baseball.

If you have a problem with baseball caps at times when baseball games aren't being played and you are not a player, the fault, here, is with the user selecting improper hardware.
posted by eriko at 10:36 PM on August 3, 2012 [17 favorites]


Honestly I think sometimes post just to get those reactions. I mean does anyone post one of those NYT style things thinking people are going to chime in saying "Middle class ennui, I know how that is" or "The NYT is dead on this time! Cupcakes are totes yesterday!". It is a foregone conclusion people are going to unload on the NYT, the Author and anyone with an iPhone and an SUV for good measure.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:38 PM on August 3, 2012 [1 favorite]


I had girded my loins and made a rare post to MeFi about minimalist book covers for children's stories and got snerked at as well.

"Forget it, Jake Deborah. It's Chinatown MetaFilter."
posted by deborah at 10:45 PM on August 3, 2012 [2 favorites]


I felt like I learned something from the photorealism dislikers about the bounds and disputes in photorealism. I also felt some relief that others found it impressive but boring, as I do. But I have a close friend who does photorealistic work and its so dull and I have to admire so much of it so its good to know I'm not alone.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:46 PM on August 3, 2012 [1 favorite]


If you have a problem with baseball caps at times when baseball games aren't being played and you are not a player, the fault, here, is with the user selecting improper hardware.
posted by eriko at 6:36 AM on August 4


Nah. I just think they look like crappy children's wear, and grown adults who wear them look daft.
posted by Decani at 12:59 AM on August 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


My deleted comment in the jeans thread was inspired by the link that portended to be "scientific" study of "mom jeans" that was total complete bullshit.

Fashion uses junk science as a way to validate a position that enforces a viewpoint designed to make people feel like crap, and I find it infuriating.

My comment was deleted, rightfully so, but that does not mean my opinion regarding the invalidity of the claim was not warranted. My communication of such belief warranted deleting, yes, I'll agree that much.

It's more than "I hate fashion" it's that I am married to a woman who constantly judges her "mom butt" to 23 year old hotties and struggles with feelings of low self worth the phrase "mom jeans" just sucks so hard.
posted by roboton666 at 1:06 AM on August 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


Occasionally I wonder if eriko and Decani have begun to parody themselves.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:11 AM on August 4, 2012 [5 favorites]


Well, they are certainly two of the people who comment on almost every thread. Sometimes I wonder, surely there is some work you could be doing?
posted by malapropist at 2:15 AM on August 4, 2012


I don't understand photorealistic painting. They have cameras now.
posted by spitbull at 5:09 AM on August 4, 2012


I don't understand photorealistic painting. They have cameras now.

Some artists really enjoy producing that style of work, which is all the reason they need for creating it. Whether anyone likes what they produce is beyond the point.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:41 AM on August 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


*sigh*
posted by zarq at 6:04 AM on August 4, 2012


It's true, not everyone will like the things you do.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:11 AM on August 4, 2012


I hate basketball.
posted by Splunge at 6:26 AM on August 4, 2012


vegan threads

Not a speck of leather in sight, here, good, but let's talk about that wool sweater. Is it or isn't it?
posted by kengraham at 6:32 AM on August 4, 2012


It's true, not everyone will like the things you do.

Quite right. For example, I don't give a shit about skateboarding. Truly, it's difficult to convey the full measure of my disinterest in it.

Rather than not commenting in your thread, would you have preferred I express that by popping in early to say that skateboarding is "so boring" or "It just goes to show, people will blog about anything"?
posted by Egg Shen at 6:45 AM on August 4, 2012 [2 favorites]


I'm not sure how I feel about threads like this, does this MeTa have a pony embedded in the psychedelic graphics I'm supposed to find for a prize?
posted by infini at 6:45 AM on August 4, 2012


Rather than not commenting in your thread, would you have preferred I express that by popping in early to say that skateboarding is "so boring" or "It just goes to show, people will blog about anything"?

I would prefer that you quit whining that your post didn't get the way you want and move on with your life.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:49 AM on August 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


You're arguing that people who don't like whining are whining?
posted by Artw at 6:53 AM on August 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


I never comment in threads I dislike. Mostly because I'm filled with an ennui so palpable that I cannot lift my hand to even register my disdain.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:54 AM on August 4, 2012 [13 favorites]


The mostly hostile reception of Pinterest You Are Drunk is an interesting case study. I think the mockery of someone else's mockery is well deserved.

As the poster of that link, I really don't care if people hate it. I mean, it's a snark site on the internet. Who gives a fuck if someone doesn't like it? Not me.
posted by the young rope-rider at 6:57 AM on August 4, 2012 [4 favorites]


Who gives a fuck if someone doesn't like it?

Exactly. People get way too emotionally invested in what other people think, sometimes. I can't control you, but i can control my reaction to you.
posted by Devils Rancher at 7:02 AM on August 4, 2012


I would prefer that you quit whining that your post didn't get the way you want and move on with your life.

I'd prefer if you acted less like a condescending ass. Egg Shen's comments here are hardly whining, and if people aren't supposed to weigh in on the subject and vent, what's the point of having MetaTalk?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:44 AM on August 4, 2012 [2 favorites]


Egg Shen: popping in early to say that skateboarding is "so boring"

I appreciate you linking to my comment, rather than simply quoting out of context. I didn't enter that thread to denigrate something I don't like. I entered the thread because my dislike of the subject actually surprised me. I didn't know, before your post, that I disliked (some) photorealism. And there were examples of photorealism linked in the thread that I actually did like, so I don't just dislike all photorealism.

My dislike surprised me, so I tried to articulate it. I wanted to enter a dialogue with others on the site to feel out if my dislike was badly misinformed. If you'll notice, my last entry in that thread is having been reminded that, from past experience, a lot of art simply doesn't translate through a computer screen. I ended up still feeling that it wasn't good art to me, but actually compelled to see it in person, to challenge it on its own terms. I'd love to see it in a gallery, now.

Thanks for making the post! I'm really glad I participated in the thread. I'm sorry you don't feel the same.
posted by gilrain at 7:46 AM on August 4, 2012


Rather than not commenting in your thread, would you have preferred I express that by popping in early to say that skateboarding is "so boring"

I don't understand. gilrain didn't pop in just to say "so boring." gilrain appears to be participating in good faith in the photorealism fpp, articulating what it is about that artist's art that s/he doesn't like.

I think that dropping into a thread just to say "this sucks" is bad manners. Going into a thread to talk about what one doesn't like about the subject, and why, is not bad manners. Not every negative response to an fpp is noise or trolling.
posted by rtha at 7:59 AM on August 4, 2012 [8 favorites]


Oops, just noticed that Egg Shen wasn't actually the poster of that thread. The sentiment stands, however.
posted by gilrain at 8:04 AM on August 4, 2012


move on with your life. -- If this weren't easier said than done, none of us would even be here right now.
posted by crunchland at 9:27 AM on August 4, 2012

They do so by falling off. This is by design. If you need a cap that doesn't fall off when you look around, you do not want a baseball cap.
Now, I'm not exactly up on the latest baseball theory, but I'm not entirely sure about your theory, there.

Personally, I'm just fine with someone showing up in a thread to say "I didn't like this because of the following reasons:" and then having reasons.

I'm less fine with "this is objectively bad" with no attempt to offer reasons.

I am also just fine with someone showing up to say "I liked this," or "this was great" without any reasons because those don't create any acrimony.

The PYAD thread is a good example actually, because people went to some lengths to articulate what they found disagreeable about the sight. Come to think of it, the site itself actually attempts to provide reasons for its dislike of whatever pinned thing.

The word "boorish" seems like probably the best one to describe the "this sucks" attitude.
posted by kavasa at 9:40 AM on August 4, 2012 [2 favorites]


and this one to say "I’m not into fashion, who cares what your jeans look like, quit being so shallow" pretty much the same as coming into a baseball post and saying you hate baseball?

To be fair, the "I'm not into fashion" only really got going after someone offered a pretty hurtful comment about the sad fat people who aren't into fashion.

Coming into a baseball post to say you hate baseball: no.

Reacting badly to a baseball post where someone has said in apparent seriousness that everyone who does not play baseball is a very bad person: understandable.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:03 AM on August 4, 2012


It's really kind of amazing to me just how frequent and — oblivious? — are comments of the nature "this is stupid and bad and people who like this are stupid and bad". It's not that I don't understand or share the sentiment with regard to various things and people — I do, I'm human. What I don't understand is often expressing this directly to people and not having any sense that it's a shitty thing to do.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:21 AM on August 4, 2012 [3 favorites]


I dunno. This whole discussion is a bit like looking at Youtube comments and using it as an excuse for despairing of humanity. Just don't look at the noise, for Pete's sake (or flag it [as noise]). The MeFi community is good. Darn good, as a matter of fact.
posted by Namlit at 11:37 AM on August 4, 2012


My thoughts about the jeans post were these: a) the illustrative photos in the first-link blog were so fucked up in terms of their aspect ratio that they didn't illustrate the points the writer was making; b) the "better" jeans often didn't look better, at least as far as I could tell from the messed-up photos; c) the blogger contradicted themselves frequently; and d) after slogging through that dense bolus of nonsense and technical incompetence, I couldn't be bothered to read the million other links.

But, you know, not every post's for me, and that's fine. My jeans already look like I want them to look and fit like I want them to fitl.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:38 AM on August 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


Or "fit", for that matter. Apparently, it's meeey toorn to wright like Jaymez Joysssss.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:39 AM on August 4, 2012


roboton666: " It's more than "I hate fashion" it's that I am married to a woman who constantly judges her "mom butt" to 23 year old hotties and struggles with feelings of low self worth the phrase "mom jeans" just sucks so hard."

Your reflexive hostility to the phrase seems to be so strong that you completely missed the point of the post: it's not the butt, it's the jeans. Bad jeans make one's butt look bad. Better jeans mean a better-looking butt.

Your energy would be better spent on understanding how waist height and pocket placement can combine to artificially induce "mom butt" (which is just shorthand for a particular kind of bad fit) than it is spent railing against the term "mom jeans". If your wife's jeans are unflattering, they're unflattering, and she'd probably be happier in more-flattering ones. Understanding how the cut and pocket placement affect the fit would help you give more useful feedback if she asks "Which of these jeans do you think fits me better?"
posted by Lexica at 11:42 AM on August 4, 2012


"Your reflexive hostility to the phrase seems to be so strong that you completely missed the point of the post: it's not the butt, it's the jeans. Bad jeans make one's butt look bad. Better jeans mean a better-looking butt."

No, I think you're missing the point. It's a problem when people are regularly judgemental about someone's failure to ensure that their butt looks good.

I know it's annoying when I get hooked on some idea and repeat it across multiple threads — but the underlying issue in all this is that people have a bad tendency to move from value-neutral functional arguments (certain clothing and fits of clothing make one more or less conventionally physically attractive) to value judgement about other people (the implication that there's something "wrong" with you if you don't "care enough" to make sure that your butt looks good in jeans). Only a small minority makes those value judgments explicit and actually says things like in my parenthetical example — but people very often make statements which clearly imply such judgments.

Because they think them.

We think that someone's preference for a certain kind of pop music indicates some flaw in their character. We think that someone's failure to conform to clothing fashion indicates some flaw in their character. We think that someone's failure to use punctuation indicates some flaw in their character. We judge people in our heads all the time. We arguably shouldn't, or shouldn't as often and with so little cause, and we certainly should be more generous and forgiving — but, even so, we do and this is human.

What we don't have to do, however, is to actually express all these judgments to the people we've negatively judged. Even implicitly.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:29 PM on August 4, 2012 [5 favorites]

What we don't have to do, however, is to actually express all these judgments to the people we've negatively judged. Even implicitly.
How about we just declare me the Omega Arbiter of metafilter and then I can travel the world in a hilariously camp outfit judging the judges.
posted by kavasa at 1:10 PM on August 4, 2012


Your reflexive hostility to the phrase seems to be so strong that you completely missed the point of the post: it's not the butt, it's the jeans. Bad jeans make one's butt look bad. Better jeans mean a better-looking butt.

For the record, my wife has an impeccable sense of fashion, and her butt always looks good in jeans.

The phrases "mom jeans" and "scientific study" used in a blog post about making your butt look better are part of a dog whistle package that has been employed by fashion magazines for 50 years to make women feel like shit about their body images and I take every opportunity I can to call it out.

Now if anyone want to talk angles and ratios and waistlines in a non-antagonizing way, don't use bullshit science and dump the "mom jeans" phrase.
posted by roboton666 at 1:32 PM on August 4, 2012 [3 favorites]


Your reflexive hostility

That's an excellent term for it.
posted by zarq at 1:38 PM on August 4, 2012 [2 favorites]


MetaFilter: No, you're missing the point.


(apologies for the punch-up, sloganeering requires quote mangling)
posted by mwhybark at 2:04 PM on August 4, 2012


Flag it as "breaks the guidelines."
posted by wryly at 2:59 PM on August 4, 2012


Metafilter: Your reflexive hostility
posted by Artw at 3:04 PM on August 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


Lol, I'm glad I now have a term to describe myself.
posted by roboton666 at 3:08 PM on August 4, 2012


It's what MeFi focuses into a Psylocke style psychic knife.
posted by Artw at 3:10 PM on August 4, 2012


Hey, I got that reference!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:22 PM on August 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


The point of the post, to me, was that some blogger took a bunch of crappy indecipherable pictures to "prove" that one set of jeans looked "better" than another set of jeans. Since you couldn't really see what the jeans looked like given the limitations of the photos, it was all "blah blah here's what I think about jeans" and I didn't find it at all edifying.

Then the comments were all people talking about their own jeans and how great they were and again, without photos, who cares?
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:30 PM on August 4, 2012


Saying "I don't care for photorealism" isn't really equivalent to "I hate baseball"--it's more like I hate the way the Dodgers play"--in other words it bespeaks interest in the subject, not dismissive contempt for it. If someone posts a link to photorealist paintings we may assume that they want to attract commentary from people who are interested in art. Part of a good-faith and engaged discussion of the subject could be "this particular genre doesn't seem to work for me, and here's why." I agree that it's pointless to just say "these suck" (and I agree that I get frustrated how often all aesthetic discussions on Metafilter devolve into "this sucks, and you're a poopyhead if you think otherwise"). But I don't think you can reasonably say that any and all negative comments on an art form or a genre are "noise."
posted by yoink at 4:39 PM on August 4, 2012


what I'm gathering here is that possibly photorealist depictions of mom jeans would aspire to Sarah Palinesque linkbait.

Given that Tina Fey has already done duty as both Palin and a Mom Jeans spokesmodel, I predict something like this from Drew Freidman, possibly hosted and published by The Oatmeal.

If lawsuits are pursuant, so much the better.
posted by mwhybark at 5:31 PM on August 4, 2012 [1 favorite]


Your energy would be better spent on understanding how waist height and pocket placement can combine to artificially induce "mom butt" (which is just shorthand for a particular kind of bad fit) than it is spent railing against the term "mom jeans"

It's hurtful to hear someone use a category of people as a shorthand for something negative, when you're part of that category. It's not just noting bad fit, it's associating mothers with frumpiness. It's unkind.
posted by palliser at 10:26 PM on August 4, 2012 [8 favorites]


I thought that the "totally scientific study" aspect of the mom jeans article was pretty obviously tongue-in-cheek, myself. The term "scientific" gets abused all the damn time but to me anyway the misuse seemed self-aware and possibly was intended to refer to the less-self-aware (or more cynically manipulative, anyway) abuse of the term so frequently committed by the fashion industry.
posted by Scientist at 12:32 PM on August 5, 2012


I though that the "totally scientific study" aspect of the mom jeans article was pretty obviously tongue-in-cheek.

Yeah, I didn't think anyone was exactly aiming for publication in a peer-reviewed journal by recording the results of a "study" conducted at "Research Laboratory: Riverchase Galleria."
posted by virago at 1:33 PM on August 5, 2012


Namlit: "This whole discussion is a bit like looking at Youtube comments and using it as an excuse for despairing of humanity."

Oh, I think Youtube comments are an excellent reason to despair of humanity.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:58 PM on August 5, 2012 [1 favorite]


Oh, I think Youtube comments are an excellent reason to despair of humanity.

Interesting use of "excellent". But yes, indeed. Looking at Youtube comments and despairing of humanity is a bit like stuffing a hotdog into an already upset stomach and despairing of one's declining health.
posted by Namlit at 12:23 AM on August 6, 2012


To be clear, I see a difference between "your favorite band sucks" and "I hate Rock bands". Just coming into a discussion and saying you don’t like the whole subject of the discussion just doesn’t seem that useful.
Well, every single advertising thread gets a link to that Bill Hicks rant posted. OMG ADVERTISING IS BAD YOU GUYS LETS NOT EVEN DISCUSS DED COMEDIAN SAID SO
posted by mippy at 3:36 AM on August 6, 2012 [2 favorites]


Also, Decani is from the UK, where baseball caps are mostly worn by teens and below. If there's a person in their 30s/40s wearing one on the Tube, they are most likely a tourist, and almost certainly an American tourist.

I can't get worked up about them to be honest. Although the fashion for teens to wear them sort of perched on the head, sitting on top of the crown like a large fascinator, is bizarre. What is that all about?
posted by mippy at 3:42 AM on August 6, 2012


> If you have a problem with baseball caps at times when baseball games aren't being played
> and you are not a player, the fault, here, is with the user selecting improper hardware.
> posted by eriko at 1:36 AM on August 4 [17 favorites +] [!]

It's not just my ironic backwards baseball cap that comes off. My ironic catcher's mask falls off all the time too, even though I have never had to chase a pop foul at Piano's (and couldn't YAWN be bothered to chase it even if one occurred there.)
posted by jfuller at 6:54 AM on August 6, 2012




"Also, Decani is from the UK, where baseball caps are mostly worn by teens and below. If there's a person in their 30s/40s wearing one on the Tube, they are most likely a tourist, and almost certainly an American tourist."

Brits also, I understand, feel the same way about athletic shoes. But, you know, Americans wear baseball caps and athletic shoes and cowboy hats and whatever else because that's normal in American culture. It tells you very little or nothing about the people wearing those things relative to Brits; Americans might be able to discern some things via these cues, but even then such judgments are dicey.

Ridiculing members of another culture because they wear unfamiliar clothing is just plain stupid. I understand that this can be especially tempting when it's familiar clothing worn unfamiliarly, such as the recent notice of Chinese bathers wearing ski-masks, but it's still stupid.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:11 AM on August 6, 2012


Nah, it's the same. Just turn it sideways on your head.
posted by SpiffyRob at 10:23 AM on August 6, 2012


Brits also, I understand, feel the same way about athletic shoes.

They really don't. Go to a working-class town and you will have a hard job spotting someone who wears any colour of leather on their feet other than white. In London where I live, Converse (yeah, I know they're not 'athletic') Nikes and all kinds of trainers are really popular, especially among teenagers. Baseball caps aren't so popular with adults though, for some reason.

The ur-American fashion for me are those peculiar fawn-coloured trousers people wear with a coloured shirt tucked in. Not ridiculous in themselves, but they stick out here to the extent that they are the marker of a tourist on the tube. I wonder what it is about Brits that make us obvious tourists when we're abroad?
posted by mippy at 10:24 AM on August 6, 2012 [1 favorite]


Pasty skin.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:25 AM on August 6, 2012 [1 favorite]


The ur-American fashion for me are those peculiar fawn-coloured trousers people wear with a coloured shirt tucked in

Huh, really? Khakis are so generic that I am kind of shocked that they stand out anywhere. They are the basic "I am not wearing jeans" of the American wardrobe. What do Brits wear, then? Blacks and grays?
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:28 AM on August 6, 2012


And not jeans so much, once outside the cities. You feel odd yourself when with a group of English friends in, say, North Yorkshire, and all the other ladies are in proper trousers.
posted by infini at 10:49 AM on August 6, 2012


Interesting that Marks and Spencer's Chinos pages tend to show dark colors, even.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:13 AM on August 6, 2012


What do Brits wear

Whatever they are allotted by the National Trouser Service - AND THEY ARE GRATEFUL FOR IT.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:39 AM on August 6, 2012


Khakis! That's what you call them. It seems to be a thing. You know how every so often someone posts a thread about whether you can wear comfortable shoes in Paris, as though you will be spat at in the street if you don a pair of trainers? Apparently it's a concern for Americans who are worried about looking touristy. I don't really have any concerns about looking touristy if I'm an actual tourist, mind you,

Well, where I grew up most people seemed to wear tracksuit bottoms as everyday wear. I think 'lads' wear chinos or coloured skinnies, I don't know what actual men wear really if they're not in jeans. ('Not jeans so much outside the cities' - really? That might be an age thing rather than a British thing. People older than my mother, who's 65, don't feel comfortable in jeans especially for an occasion where one might want to look smart/impress.) I work in a casual office and most of the men wear regular or coloured (royal blue/deep purple/red etc.) jeans, though I don't know if the coloured jeans thing is a London fashion.

If you are very middle class, you'll wear cord pants, and if you're posh, apparently, they will be salmon-coloured.
posted by mippy at 1:21 PM on August 6, 2012


I wonder what it is about Brits that make us obvious tourists when we're abroad?

Probably the way you carry fries and chips in your fanny packs while taking an elevator from your apartment to put in the trunk of your truck.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:23 PM on August 6, 2012


That might be an age thing rather than a British thing.

If you are very middle class, you'll wear cord pants, and if you're posh, apparently, they will be salmon-coloured.


Probably a class thing.
posted by infini at 1:25 PM on August 6, 2012


Well, I don't know what you can pack in your fanny, but mine certainly won't hold a bag of chips. I'm not frigging Billie Holliday.
posted by mippy at 1:25 PM on August 6, 2012


Decani: "I don't hate baseball. Just baseball caps. They suck."

The coolness of any given region of space is inversely proportional to the number of baseball caps in it. This is especially true in any music venue.
posted by dunkadunc at 2:11 PM on August 6, 2012


"trunk of your truck."

Trucks don't have trunks, they have beds!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:33 PM on August 6, 2012


Those fitting-in-the-front-of-the-truck-bed tool chests are frequently called trunks.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:40 PM on August 6, 2012


You can put your boot in your trunk, but not the other way around. Unless you're a Kray brother.
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:50 PM on August 6, 2012 [1 favorite]


Those fitting-in-the-front-of-the-truck-bed tool chests are frequently called trunks.

By who?
posted by bongo_x at 3:07 PM on August 6, 2012


"You can put your boot in your trunk, but not the other way around. Unless you're a Kray brother."

Thanks to Whitechapel, I understood that reference.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:46 PM on August 6, 2012


By who?

People I know, at least. I thought it was a widespread usage.
posted by shakespeherian at 3:51 PM on August 6, 2012


There's critical comments that provide context and a point of view, and then there's threadshitting.

The difference being better lighting.


And more tears.


Actually, there are MeFi posts that have totally changed my life. I will never, ever wear "mom jeans" again as I'm switching completely to Japanese construction worker pants.

Snark on!
posted by BlueHorse at 7:35 PM on August 17, 2012 [1 favorite]


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