Interesting comments by Nick Sweeney

May 14, 2002 3:19 PM

Interesting comments by Nick Sweeney in Kottke.org about the differences between Plastic and Metafilter. (This is probably too obvious a link, But I thought there must be at least some people here who haven't seen this)
posted by justlooking to MetaFilter-Related at 3:19 PM (54 comments total)

nick sweeney is holgate

posted by vacapinta at 3:50 PM on May 14, 2002

Unfortunately, Nick Sweeney is not so much holgate, as holgate, these days.
posted by liam at 4:09 PM on May 14, 2002

oh, lots of us. who reads kottke, anyway?
posted by quonsar at 4:21 PM on May 14, 2002

Still in all, one has to admit Holgate (I will always remember him as his alter-ego) gave the place a fair shake, considering his current state of self-exile.

When it comes to a question of moderation/non-moderation, it's a "tastes great/less filling" or which side of the frosted mini-wheat you prefer. I have one view; Holgate another. (And I suspect I have many more Front Page Post sympathy pangs towards his point of view than he does mine.)


But home is where you hang your hat. Best wishes to him.

posted by Perigee at 5:20 PM on May 14, 2002

I hadn't seen it - thanks, justlooking.

I got a lovely out of the blue email from Nick last week. jjg had posted a thread about the webby awards and I had asked why so many people dislike Tiffany Shlain - no one answered me. A few days later Nick emailed me and thoroughly and comprehensively answered my question for me. So his presence is all around us. I like him as a writer and he's always owned first place on my weblog link list. I told him I wished he would return to MetaFilter. He hasn't gotten back to me yet on that one ;)
posted by iconomy at 5:38 PM on May 14, 2002

well, i tried plastic again, maybe in 4 more months i'll go back and try again. it seems like overhearing conversations in high school, or at lunch; nothing exciting, sometimes slightly offensive.
posted by rhyax at 5:48 PM on May 14, 2002

So what was his answer on Tiffany Shlain?

I told him I wished he would return to MetaFilter.

I've told him that too, but he says he's committed to Plastic. I think there's more here than meets the eye, though... (Hi Holgate!)
posted by rodii at 6:52 PM on May 14, 2002

Seems like he gave a basically forthright criticism of Metafilter, but as respected as he is, I wouldn't ask him to give a comparison of the site that he works on personally to the site that he doesn't participate in anymore. Or at least, I wouldn't take it without a grain of salt. "So, Mr. Ford, could you give us your take on the old 'Ford vs. Chevy' debate?"

posted by Hildago at 7:01 PM on May 14, 2002

Here's my question: Why do we care? I ask this with all sincerity...Is MeFi competing with Plastic? Are we trying to woo readers?

FWIW, I understand that these comparisons help to build a community. Some criticism is healthy. To that extent, MeFi has becoming very news-oriented. But I think self-policing beats a moderation system anyday. We, and correct me if I'm wrong, are a democracy, for the most part. Aside from minimal admistrative tasks performed by Matt, our comments, our threads, our community...are what the members have created.

We do not have a ruling elite here. A lack of rating system helps people make their own judgements. Truth is, I think Plastic's rating system is like spoon-feeding their readers, which IMHO is wrong. Let a reader create their own ideas. Let the community determine who respected posters are.
posted by BlueTrain at 7:13 PM on May 14, 2002

Rodii - he just explained why people don't like her. I don't want to cut and paste his email here but he explained every possible reason that anyone could have to dislike her and he did it methodically, and with no small amount of wit.

And I think nikzhowz found your cowboy/caveman/alien cartoon! Another mystery solved.
posted by iconomy at 7:23 PM on May 14, 2002

I think Nick's call on Metafilter was pretty darn accurate.

(Hi holgate!)

I, too, have tried Plastic a few times, but the mechanics of it somehow left me cold. I'm not quite sure why that might be - I'm a creature of habit, I guess.

posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:48 PM on May 14, 2002

Bluetrain: It doesnt have anything to do with 'competing'. I fretted before posting the link here because I was worried that the thread can mutate and take all sorts of negative directions because of widely different reasons.

However, I am fascinated by how online communities grow and mostly implode after they acquire a certain size and how even the most beautiful communities (be it an online community like well.com or an offline community/collective like Magnum) tend to lose something with time/growth. Mefi (IMO) appears to have avoided that fate (Well, I only know the present here. Probably not the best person to deliver an opinion ...).

If we can dissociate ourselves from the emotional involvement that many feel with this forum- we are really talking about two successful online communites and how they are growing differently. I am interested in the perspective of anyone who can provide an intelligent, coherant and relatively dispassionate perspective on the subject. Sweeny/Holgate's opinion appeared to be civil, cogent and worth sharing. That's all there is to it.
posted by justlooking at 7:48 PM on May 14, 2002

Bluetrain, it's not criticism really, Nick is just sharing his observations, and relating them to his current work and the previous decade of online communities he has experienced. He goes way back in net history, especially communities, and I still regard him as one of the smartest people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. I don't take his comments as harsh criticism or anything remotely resembling rivalry or competition between plastic and here, he's just telling us what he thought of his experiences here and what he's seeing on plastic.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:39 PM on May 14, 2002

And I think nikzhowz found your cowboy/caveman/alien cartoon! Another mystery solved.

Aiiee!! Put the thread back! *sobs*
posted by rodii at 9:02 PM on May 14, 2002

rodii: Colonel Bleep. Where'd the thread go? Seemed innocuous. Was it a dupe?
posted by nikzhowz at 9:11 PM on May 14, 2002

Yeah, I think he about covers it. Still doesn't explain why I like MetaFilter more than Plastic, but less than I used too. (Oh yea, cuz I don't like community sites in general and my dwindling affection for the big MF is a fluke. Almost forgot.)

Worth thinking about further:

“the erudition and diversity of knowledge on MeFi always went well beyond anything I've seen on Plastic. It's not quite as 'group-smart' now, simply because seminar-size discussions don't scale to lecture theatres.”

...

“[Plastic] still [has] an instinctive tendency towards raw opinioneering and snarkiness, though that's definitely changing.”

I'd say MetaFilter is getting worse in that respect too.
posted by raaka at 9:18 PM on May 14, 2002

Sorry to be off-topic, but I must thank nik. I have been searching for that my entire adult life. I have often thought I was crazy and it never really existed. You can't imagine how happy this makes me. *capers wildly* How in the hell did you find it?
posted by rodii at 9:32 PM on May 14, 2002

i really miss nick's input. i joined mefi in may of last year and the only interaction i've had with the guy was a rather snarky email he sent me referring to me as a "corporate apologist" after I defended Enron's "secret" meetings with Dick Cheney as a product of Regulation FD. it was signed "nick sweeney."

my immediate reaction, however, (despite the obvious disdain for my opinion) was an excited "hey! 'holgate still reads metafilter!" i wish he'd come back. i doubt we'd agree on much of anything, but I have a lot of respect for adversaries that actually know what they're talking about, and nick/holgate really contributed materially to the quality of discussion here.
posted by lizs at 9:38 PM on May 14, 2002

Don't mention it rodii, I'm fond of the cartoon myself and couldn't remember what it was called. Googling your description kicked up a blurb at Astounding B Monster, which included the name.

[I miss holgate too]
posted by nikzhowz at 9:50 PM on May 14, 2002

Geez, why don't you all build a gilded statue of him and put it out front?
posted by evanizer at 10:18 PM on May 14, 2002

I miss the hell out of him. I google-tracked him to Plastic a while ago, which is the only reason I ever gave Plastic a second audition. Glad I did.

MeFi's silent ghosts. They piss me off. I wasn't finished reading yet, dammit.

Geez, why don't you all build a gilded statue of him and put it out front?

Credit where it's due, evanizer. One of the problems with this place is its inherent inability to offer up a good, sustained stroking...which reminds me...
posted by Opus Dark at 10:24 PM on May 14, 2002

One of the problems with this place is its inherent inability to offer up a good, sustained stroking

Are you saying that MeFi has a problem with premature ejaculation when masturbating?
posted by BlueTrain at 10:27 PM on May 14, 2002

Geez, why don't you all build a gilded statue of him and put it out front?

Or maybe we can just photoshop his head onto the body of a saint.

posted by iconomy at 10:30 PM on May 14, 2002

[...]a problem with premature ejaculation when masturbating?

Is there such a thing?
posted by Opus Dark at 10:33 PM on May 14, 2002

Witchstone said it, with succintness worthy of holgate.
posted by liam at 10:37 PM on May 14, 2002

> > a problem with premature ejaculation when masturbating?

> Is there such a thing?

How much fun would masturbation be if it were over before you could imagine it beginning? You just start to picture, say, the woman next door... coming out in her bathrobe... to get the newspaper.... and... oh, shit.
posted by pracowity at 2:02 AM on May 15, 2002

I think the difference between Mefi as it is, and how many here would prefer it, is not a function of the size of the community. Rather, it's the speed of the "post cycle." People, including myself, post as if in engaged in a conversation, or as in a chat room: rapid fire. Clever remarks (or attempts at cleverness) are esteemed because members have the expectation they will be seen almost immediately (quick=clever; if you have many minutes or hours to think up something clever, it ain't that clever).

So, there is a choice. Either accept Mefi as Weblog as Instant Messaging, or slow the Post Cycle down. For example, if new comments were posted only every 1/2 hour, or hour, that might accomplish it (I don't think it's a question of posting quotas: it's timing).

Interesting thread.
posted by ParisParamus at 3:23 AM on May 15, 2002

My comparison? Plastic tends to be over the top in mocking issues, while MeFi tends to over-romanticize them. Kinda sorta maybe.

The best feature of both sites, IMO, is the high signal-to-noise ratio of the "me, too", "first-post", "you stupid [expletive]" nature. Both sites use exclusionary methods to achieve that environment: Plastic with moderation, and MeFi with 'open season' registrations.

[Plastic] seems like overhearing conversations in high school, or at lunch; nothing exciting, sometimes slightly offensive.

Yup, but that is also true of MeFi and most any other group discussion.

posted by mischief at 4:41 AM on May 15, 2002

MeFi tends to over-romanticize them.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Can you elaborate?
posted by rodii at 6:23 AM on May 15, 2002

Shall I compare thee to a flaming post?
Thou art more lovely and intemperate,
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of MeFi,
And its front page lease hath all too short a date.
Sometime too hot the eye of MeTa shines,
And often is his grey complexion dimm'd;
And every post from fair sometime declines,
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st;
Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st:
So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.
posted by rory at 6:41 AM on May 15, 2002

(A response to rodii's request for over-romantic elaboration, of course.)
posted by rory at 6:43 AM on May 15, 2002

I love, love, love the phrase "Usenet September." A remarkably short term which touches upon Internet history, game theory, group dynamics, ethnology, sociology and American culture.
posted by Mo Nickels at 8:42 AM on May 15, 2002

rodii: "Kinda sorta maybe."
posted by mischief at 8:55 AM on May 15, 2002

I saw that! I appreciate that you're groping toward an insight. I just don't know what you're seeing.

No biggie.

(rory, you are the man.)
posted by rodii at 9:01 AM on May 15, 2002

Holgate is doing great work at Plastic. I admire the way he can lead, edit and, at the same time, comment there. It's very easy to single out his participation there: just type "holgate" into the search box. And engage him, if you so wish, as you did here.

He's an academic and a gentleman - he likes challenges, sticks up for the underdog and is resolutely unbowed by fashion or pressure. Complaining about his decision is a bit like being miffed because a favourite author changes publishers. Perhaps MetaFilter became too easy and respectful; too set in its ways and proud of itself, for his liking.

Though, of course, I miss him terribly too. It's amazing what one person's absence can do to such a large website as MetaFilter. *pulls out snuff-heavy handkerchief and sobs* Ah, the good doctor!
posted by MiguelCardoso at 9:32 AM on May 15, 2002

I miss holgate's presence on MeFi too. Lots. But not enough to hang out at Plastic. stavros' assertion that the place leaves him "cold" is as good a description of my experience there as any. It feels ... forbidding, uninviting to me. Perhaps it's a function of the slashdotty look/functionality of the site? MeFi's pages would be awfully gaping and blank if there were no posts or comments, but Plastic's got all those sidebars and dropdown form fields and menus and ... stuff. As the old commercials used to say: Where's the beef?

I know that this is literally the most superficial assessment of Plastic that could ever be made, but I do feel like at MeFi, just the layout of the site makes it 100% clear, immediately, that it's all about the community of contributing members, and I like that a lot. I think we'd lose that, too, if Matt ever did give us all the ponies we've asked for over the last couple of years---karma, killfiles, categories, deputized moderation. Those things can be *useful*, sure, but possibly at conviviality's expense. It's just cozier here.

For example: I cannot imagine reading a Plastic thread and seeing a snarky comment by someone and having an attendant instinctive feeling of "wait, why's my buddy, that cool guy, being so brusque and sarcastic and rude?" before realizing that said poster is not actually my buddy, that I only dreamed last night that I got to talking to him & realized we used to know each other somewhere... but it happened to me here on MeFi, here in this thread. Tag, evanizer, you're it---no, don't ask me why you, I can't imagine either.
posted by Sapphireblue at 9:36 AM on May 15, 2002

"Holgate is doing great work at Plastic."

Until I read this thread on MeFi, holgate was a complete unknown to me.
posted by mischief at 9:42 AM on May 15, 2002

What's your point?
posted by rodii at 9:46 AM on May 15, 2002

but it happened to me here on MeFi, here in this thread. Tag, evanizer, you're it--

You dreamed about me? Wow, that's... odd.

Perhaps it is because you were the first person here to speak to me and welcome me into the fold. Does that make us old friends? I think it must count for something.

Was I being snarky and rude in this thread? I should have used those sarcasm tags, but I don't know how to make fake 'greater than-less than' tags that don't screw up the CSS.
posted by evanizer at 9:54 AM on May 15, 2002

Oh gracious. I didn't remember that. (Not consciously, anyway...) Does that make me your MeFi patron? Can I be banned if you screw up bigtime? Deny, deny, deny...

Maybe a bit snarky and rude, yes. I just find it disheartening that there always seems to be someone around to make a "just build him a statue already" comment upon commencement of vocalized admiration for some distinguished soul or other. Civilized people ought to realize that the concept of "self-policing" as it applies to MetaFilter or any community or society will be ineffective without an equal measure of positive reinforcement to go along with the easy-to-administer negative.

I digress. I always do. Sorry---this thing is sort of a pet peeve of mine, one that goes hand-in-hand with my everlasting anguish re: the peer pressure upon bright schoolchildren to not excel too much, lest they fail to "fit in" (at best) or are subject to ridicule and ostracization by others (at worst). But now I'm reeeeeally off-topic.

To make up for my rambling, quasi-tags: For less than, type &lt; --- for greater than, type &gt; --- <example>like this.</example> (And if you're reading, Matt---a teeny bug---previewing turns an escaped ampersand into a real ampersand in the comment box, which is making my life difficult as I try to edit my above double-escaped example.)
posted by Sapphireblue at 10:32 AM on May 15, 2002

(And if you're reading, Matt---a teeny bug---previewing turns an escaped ampersand into a real ampersand in the comment box, which is making my life difficult as I try to edit my above double-escaped example.)

An ugly solution that I've used for this problem is to replace all ampersands in the text to be placed in the comment box with &amp;, which is then rendered as & in the comment box, thus retaining the status quo.
posted by iceberg273 at 10:38 AM on May 15, 2002

<positive reinforcement>Thanks, Sapphireblue! You're the greatest!< /positive reinforcement>
posted by evanizer at 10:46 AM on May 15, 2002

deepsigh. I suppose I was asking for that, wasn't I.
posted by Sapphireblue at 11:35 AM on May 15, 2002

I went to Plastic once but all the rules and rigmarole scared me. I don't like the rating system - firstly because what constitues a good comment is very much a matter of opinion and secondly, if a certain kind of comment gets a good score it just encourages more of the same. There are too many rules for threading. One of the great advantages of MeFi is that you can immediately see how many new comments have been added and go to them straight away. The only advantage Plastic has is that threads tend to stay around a lot longer and attract a more detailed debate but, to be honest, I can't be arsed to sift through it all.

I appreciated Holgate too, because he's articulate, educated and willing to research his comments, but there are still people like that on MeFi.
posted by Summer at 12:07 PM on May 15, 2002

rodii: "What's your point?"

(Given the large MeFi/Plastic crossover, I didn't think I would have to explain this, however...)

I have been a Plastitute since Feb'01 and my karma is 1333. I generally know Plastic's long time members and the editors very well. Miguel claimed holgate was doing great work on Plastic and holgate's bio attests that he is a prolific poster, but somehow he fell below the horizon for me and my ring of Plastic Pals. I was hoping Miguel could elaborate on holgate's greatness with a few examples. I didn't know at the time I posted that holgate was also Nick the editor.

Summer: "if a certain kind of comment gets a good score it just encourages more of the same"

The gist of your statement is also true for MeFi and any other online community: that being, "Good posts are good posts, and they will be imitated." However, Plastic's moderators generally abhor imitators and will drive them away quickly. I certainly do not conform to any community standard, and those that mimic me usually end up as toast. (tps16 is a current example of just that.)

Finally, as for MeFi's over-romanticizing, a good example occurred here in MeTalk today concerning the role of MeFi's self-policing. Some users have set a very high standard for what is defined as self-policing here, and they do not understand why the community ignores an invocation of written or unwritten rules. However, lacking ever-present community members with the power to enforce rules, self-policing here is better characterized as mob rule, and mob rule = anarchy which is far short of MeFi's community-policing fantasy.
posted by mischief at 1:57 PM on May 15, 2002

rodii: "What's your point?"

(Given the large MeFi/Plastic crossover, I didn't think I would have to explain this, however...)

I have been a Plastitute since Feb'01 and my karma is 1333. I generally know Plastic's long time members and the editors very well. Miguel claimed holgate was doing great work on Plastic and holgate's bio attests that he is a prolific poster, but somehow he fell below the horizon for me and my ring of Plastic Pals. I was hoping Miguel could elaborate on holgate's greatness with a few examples. I didn't know at the time I posted that holgate was also Nick the editor.

Summer: "if a certain kind of comment gets a good score it just encourages more of the same"

The gist of your statement is also true for MeFi and any other online community: that being, "Good posts are good posts, and they will be imitated." However, Plastic's moderators generally abhor imitators and will drive them away quickly. I certainly do not conform to any community standard, and those that mimic me usually end up as toast. (tps16 is a current example of just that.)

Finally, as for MeFi's over-romanticizing, a good example occurred here in MeTalk today concerning the role of MeFi's self-policing. Some users have set a very high standard for what is defined as self-policing here, and they do not understand why the community ignores an invocation of written or unwritten rules. However, lacking ever-present community members with the power to enforce rules, self-policing here is better characterized as mob rule, and mob rule = anarchy which is far short of MeFi's community-policing fantasy.
posted by mischief at 1:58 PM on May 15, 2002

rodii: "What's your point?"

(Given the large MeFi/Plastic crossover, I didn't think I would have to explain this, however...)

I have been a Plastitute since Feb'01 and my karma is 1333. I generally know Plastic's long time members and the editors very well. Miguel claimed holgate was doing great work on Plastic and holgate's bio attests that he is a prolific poster, but somehow he fell below the horizon for me and my ring of Plastic Pals. I was hoping Miguel could elaborate on holgate's greatness with a few examples. I didn't know at the time I posted that holgate was also Nick the editor.

Summer: "if a certain kind of comment gets a good score it just encourages more of the same"

The gist of your statement is also true for MeFi and any other online community: that being, "Good posts are good posts, and they will be imitated." However, Plastic's moderators generally abhor imitators and will drive them away quickly. I certainly do not conform to any community standard, and those that mimic me usually end up as toast. (tps16 is a current example of just that.)

Finally, as for MeFi's over-romanticizing, a good example occurred here in MeTalk today concerning the role of MeFi's self-policing. Some users have set a very high standard for what is defined as self-policing here, and they do not understand why the community ignores an invocation of written or unwritten rules. However, lacking ever-present community members with the power to enforce rules, self-policing here is better characterized as mob rule, and mob rule = anarchy which is far short of MeFi's community-policing fantasy.
posted by mischief at 1:58 PM on May 15, 2002

Well, that was interesting...
posted by mischief at 2:00 PM on May 15, 2002

Ok mischief, you've made your point ...

... as for the rest of the debate ... I think from a year ago speaks volumes:

"Just a friendly piece of advice - please don't take it personally. This community was (and will be?) about quality, not quantity. If we want quantity we go to Plastic.com, where people who submit links frequently, also take part in a bloody karma contest (hmm...)."

kchris was talking about my post frequency, but I think it also shows how closer to Plastic things have become in these parts actually. (for those who missed it the rebuttle thread is here -- watch out for me being articulate and the some early history of Steven Den Beste ('If my counter is accurate I'm getting 30-50 hits per day and a lot of those are duplicates. I have perhaps 20 regular readers.') If he knew then etc).
posted by feelinglistless at 2:28 PM on May 15, 2002

... I think THIS POST from a year ago ... (you know what I mean)
posted by feelinglistless at 2:31 PM on May 15, 2002

"Plastitute"! Funny. Thanks for the explanation.
posted by rodii at 3:53 PM on May 15, 2002

“mob rule = anarchy”

Correction: Ochlocracy is mob rule. When not talking about anarchism, anarchy means chaos or the denial of established order. I think you meant the latter. This site is neither ochlocratic nor, in the political sense, anarchic. It’s still a dictatorship.

Your post addressed why self-policing doesn't work on this site. You say it's because of a difference of opinion—I totally disagree. There is no mechanism that requires members to submit to the authority of the community. Therefore, the community has no authority. You see this in a postive light, I don’t.
posted by raaka at 4:15 PM on May 15, 2002

There is no mechanism

gentle reminders (in-thread) -> peer pressure (metatalk) -> ostracizing (community-wide) -> ejection (by Matt)
posted by vacapinta at 5:31 PM on May 15, 2002

That's a possible process, not a mechanism the community uses to pass judgement. Notice how it ends at the owner's hand — all processes would.
posted by raaka at 8:03 PM on May 15, 2002