MetaFilter: The Quickening October 10, 2023 10:47 AM Subscribe
Proposition: We should consider lowering the waiting time for new posts on the blue from one day to 12 hours.
I used to post more frequently when I first joined, then waned to one bigger post every few months. Recently I've tried getting into doing smaller posts more often, but have run into my old nemesis that discouraged me from doing so before: that damn 24 hour countdown.
It sounds like a reasonable limit, but in practice it can be pretty frustrating. You don't have to just wait until "tomorrow," but a specific time tomorrow. Even if you have a post ready beforehand, you have to wait for the countdown to run alllll the way to zero before you can paste it in. And every few minutes you take to do so ratchets the time to make subsequent posts later and later in the day, until you say "screw it" and save it for the next day, which pretty easily slides into "whenever". A total momentum killer. And it certainly doesn't help that being in the 24-hour wait period locks you out of using the post composition/preview form, so you can't even at least work on a new post while you wait.
If the limit were 12 hours instead, you could submit a post as late as 10 or 11 PM local time and then be good to post again by lunchtime tomorrow. Or late afternoon one day, and again the next morning before leaving for work. That's a much nicer level of flexibility for those who'd like to post daily. Even if you did take advantage of this to the minute, it still wouldn't be an unreasonable pace. Plus I doubt most people would be posting at, say, 3 PM and 3 AM -- in practice it would still be a once-a-day limit for most folks, just not necessarily the same time or later every day like it is now.
We've already eliminated the limit entirely for Ask MetaFilter and the sky hasn't fallen -- why not at least tone it down for MetaFilter proper? Anything that lowers friction for participation is a good thing, imho. Thoughts?
(PS: It would be nice if you could at least compose and preview posts during the waiting period as well, even if you can't submit them! I imagine that's probably more difficult to rejigger, though.)
I used to post more frequently when I first joined, then waned to one bigger post every few months. Recently I've tried getting into doing smaller posts more often, but have run into my old nemesis that discouraged me from doing so before: that damn 24 hour countdown.
It sounds like a reasonable limit, but in practice it can be pretty frustrating. You don't have to just wait until "tomorrow," but a specific time tomorrow. Even if you have a post ready beforehand, you have to wait for the countdown to run alllll the way to zero before you can paste it in. And every few minutes you take to do so ratchets the time to make subsequent posts later and later in the day, until you say "screw it" and save it for the next day, which pretty easily slides into "whenever". A total momentum killer. And it certainly doesn't help that being in the 24-hour wait period locks you out of using the post composition/preview form, so you can't even at least work on a new post while you wait.
If the limit were 12 hours instead, you could submit a post as late as 10 or 11 PM local time and then be good to post again by lunchtime tomorrow. Or late afternoon one day, and again the next morning before leaving for work. That's a much nicer level of flexibility for those who'd like to post daily. Even if you did take advantage of this to the minute, it still wouldn't be an unreasonable pace. Plus I doubt most people would be posting at, say, 3 PM and 3 AM -- in practice it would still be a once-a-day limit for most folks, just not necessarily the same time or later every day like it is now.
We've already eliminated the limit entirely for Ask MetaFilter and the sky hasn't fallen -- why not at least tone it down for MetaFilter proper? Anything that lowers friction for participation is a good thing, imho. Thoughts?
(PS: It would be nice if you could at least compose and preview posts during the waiting period as well, even if you can't submit them! I imagine that's probably more difficult to rejigger, though.)
I'd prefer to keep the limit of once a day but agree that 24 hours is less.than once a day. I'd suggest 16 rather than 12 which feels too short to me
posted by Mitheral at 12:01 PM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 12:01 PM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yes yes yes a thousand times yes. I've entirely given up at times because it was minutes or hours away to be able to post again and I'll be busy later so...it got forgotten about.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:37 PM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:37 PM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't make FPPs but I admire those who can come up with multiple ideas. And as an old UI designer, I think the friction Rhaomi describes— the site saying "you posted at 10 pm yesterday and you damn well can't post at 9 pm today"— is not helping anyone.
posted by zompist at 12:40 PM on October 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by zompist at 12:40 PM on October 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
I'm fine with this or with removing the limit altogether. But if the mods have reason why they feel like the limit or a limit is important than what about (and I'm guessing that programming-wise this is harder than just removing the limit) let people compose posts and hit submit and have them queued and then automatically posted when the clock rolls around?
An alternative limit if mods are worried about one use just going nuts and taking over would maybe be "you can't post two posts in a row." so once you posted one thing there would have to be at least one or two or five or whatever) posts by other people before you could post again.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:57 PM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
An alternative limit if mods are worried about one use just going nuts and taking over would maybe be "you can't post two posts in a row." so once you posted one thing there would have to be at least one or two or five or whatever) posts by other people before you could post again.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:57 PM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes, 12 hour would be great. I don't particularly see any problems with this and it could increase posting.
posted by clavdivs at 1:03 PM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 1:03 PM on October 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
For my Pride Month posts where I'm trying to make a post every day I basically have to resort to composing things the night before, setting an alarm for the time of my previous post so I'm posting as soon as possible, and then starting the post run as early in the day as I can so as it creeps forward into the day across the month I can still get it done early.
I don't have any real problems with the 24 hour limit, although maybe it could be made midnight GMT or something. Midnight local time? Would something like that be possible? Sure, one person could make two posts close together if they straddled the dividing line, but it's still a limit to fight against spamming.
posted by hippybear at 1:23 PM on October 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't have any real problems with the 24 hour limit, although maybe it could be made midnight GMT or something. Midnight local time? Would something like that be possible? Sure, one person could make two posts close together if they straddled the dividing line, but it's still a limit to fight against spamming.
posted by hippybear at 1:23 PM on October 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
[I will add, using the AskMe "New Question" form to compose a new post for the Blue is a great thing. It's the same editor, but as long as you never ever choose a question topic, you can never accidentally post the question. So you can compose and edit all you want and never get a Post button that you might hit by accident. Then it's just a cut-and-paste job to move it over to a new MeFi post form once your new window is open.]
posted by hippybear at 1:55 PM on October 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:55 PM on October 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Holy heck...that's a short design jump away from a post creation editor area for any subsite. 😯
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:21 PM on October 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:21 PM on October 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think this is a great idea! Remove the limit!
posted by an octopus IRL at 3:31 PM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 3:31 PM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
The limit has been in place for as long as I can remember and, back in the 'golden days of MeFi', it was a necessary throttle to what was even then a firehose of content. Those days are gone, maybe forever, so it makes sense to open the throttle a bit where we have people wanting to create content who can't because of an arbitrary limit.
I agree with the 16-hour (or thereabouts, I'd probably go for 18 just because it seems tidier) limit that would equate to once-a-day in reality without having to worry about time zones etc. Ideally, this would be set up so that it was easy to change the limit (from a programming perspective) if things change but, given the code base in question, that's likely too much to ask. Even better, have it set so the time limit automagically varies with the volume of content appearing.
posted by dg at 5:12 PM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
I agree with the 16-hour (or thereabouts, I'd probably go for 18 just because it seems tidier) limit that would equate to once-a-day in reality without having to worry about time zones etc. Ideally, this would be set up so that it was easy to change the limit (from a programming perspective) if things change but, given the code base in question, that's likely too much to ask. Even better, have it set so the time limit automagically varies with the volume of content appearing.
posted by dg at 5:12 PM on October 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
I haven’t posted in years, but I have a bank with a rolling 24 hour limit on withdrawals and it is absolutely infuriating. No limit is probably fine. Once per calendar day would essentially be the same limit without all the inconvenience. At most, one could post back to back before and after midnight, but then there would be a day before the next possible post.
posted by snofoam at 5:38 PM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snofoam at 5:38 PM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
i like it the way it is
while you wait, write your next post, marinate on it, edit it, post it when your cooldown is over. let everyone have a turn.
posted by glonous keming at 5:58 PM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
while you wait, write your next post, marinate on it, edit it, post it when your cooldown is over. let everyone have a turn.
posted by glonous keming at 5:58 PM on October 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Well, I'm glad the proposal isn't that if you cut off another user's head you can get their time-to-post from them.
...in non-Highlander seriousness, 16 hours seems fine.
posted by corb at 6:11 PM on October 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
...in non-Highlander seriousness, 16 hours seems fine.
posted by corb at 6:11 PM on October 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
+1 to reducing the limit, ++1 to eliminating it entirely or setting it very low (one or two hours). Why not? If it sucks or if some people post a million low-effort posts, bump it back up.
posted by Diskeater at 6:20 PM on October 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Diskeater at 6:20 PM on October 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Let's think out of the box: remove the limits, but if somebody gets IDed as a spammer, shadowban them, so they can post to their vile little heart's content but NOBODY EXCEPT THEM CAN SEE THEIR POSTS OR COMMENTS.
posted by signal at 6:40 PM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by signal at 6:40 PM on October 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
or, hear me out: everyone has to post every 24 hours or less, or else the site self destructs. we can call it... The MeFi That Couldn't Slow Down.
(+1 to removing the limit altogether)
posted by Kybard at 7:23 PM on October 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
(+1 to removing the limit altogether)
posted by Kybard at 7:23 PM on October 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
while you wait, write your next post, marinate on it, edit it, post it when your cooldown is over. let everyone have a turn.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think it's important to have a goal: have a good selection daily of interesting topics and conversations. Right now I think the selection is kind of low, and while I've just made a post yesterday, it was also my second ever and maybe we need some more fuel on the fire not less.
Presumably the easy way to do this is reduce the window to 12h and send anything more frequent into submission queue for posting later.
posted by pwnguin at 10:11 PM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think it's important to have a goal: have a good selection daily of interesting topics and conversations. Right now I think the selection is kind of low, and while I've just made a post yesterday, it was also my second ever and maybe we need some more fuel on the fire not less.
Presumably the easy way to do this is reduce the window to 12h and send anything more frequent into submission queue for posting later.
posted by pwnguin at 10:11 PM on October 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
If the limit were 12 hours instead, you could submit a post as late as 10 or 11 PM local time and then be good to post again by lunchtime tomorrow. Or late afternoon one day, and again the next morning before leaving for work.
Great idea, Rhaomi. The old posting limit on the blue makes zero sense now that there are so few posts on the front page. Just making it 2 a day could also possibly work.
posted by mediareport at 1:59 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Great idea, Rhaomi. The old posting limit on the blue makes zero sense now that there are so few posts on the front page. Just making it 2 a day could also possibly work.
posted by mediareport at 1:59 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Or, if the limit is still needed -- I personally don't think so, if anything there seems to be a decline in number of posts on the front page -- it could be a weekly limit of say 7 posts. You could post 7 in the same day but then you'd have to wait a week.
posted by dhruva at 2:54 AM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by dhruva at 2:54 AM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know if it would just encourage fluffy kitten listicles, but you could always calculate a person's permitted posting rate based on the average favorites or comments (or both) of their previous posts. Someone posting well-liked and engaging posts would be encouraged to post more often. Someone whose posts get no attention would cruise along with whatever the default number is.
posted by pracowity at 6:59 AM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 6:59 AM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
As a person who has run into the 24hr limit quite a bit I guess this sounds good… for me. Bit worried about what it might do to the variety of the homepage if it’s lots of frequent posters posting more frequently - are we hard up enough for posts that we need to do that?
Upping it to infinity posts sounds a terrible idea FWIW.
posted by Artw at 7:16 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Upping it to infinity posts sounds a terrible idea FWIW.
posted by Artw at 7:16 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
or, hear me out: everyone has to post every 24 hours or less, or else the site self destructs. we can call it...
Screed
posted by oulipian at 7:39 AM on October 11, 2023 [20 favorites]
Screed
posted by oulipian at 7:39 AM on October 11, 2023 [20 favorites]
I would love to see the posting limit essentially removed. Leave in an hour or a few hours to provide a speedbump to serial spammers but stop trying to get in the way of Mefites who want to post things.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:45 AM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 7:45 AM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
I like the idea of getting rid of the waiting time altogether. The worst case scenario is that some people make it their own blog and make multiple posts per day - if so then it can be handled on a case-by-case basis.
posted by kimberussell at 7:59 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kimberussell at 7:59 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'll repeat here what I said in a 2021 discussion about similar topics. Not A Thing wrote about a series of daily front page posts I'd made recommending short fiction:
I prewrote my posts and saved them as HTML files on my computer, and then pasted them into the metafilter.com new post form when my alarm went off and it was time for the next post.
A 12-hour limit would probably work fine for me too.
posted by brainwane at 7:59 AM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
(To me, one of the most impressive things about brainwane's very impressive string of posts was how she was able to keep the momentum going despite that.) I feel like reducing the cooldown to, say, 12 hours could help a lot with this particular sub-issue (so that it would be feasible to post around the same time each day without a lot of extra effort).As I said then: I liked the one-per-day limit; it did not break momentum for me. The externally imposed one-per-day limit was soothing, in an interesting way; once I had posted, I knew that I could not possibly post again for 24 hours, which meant that I was [temporarily] done. This external constraint can reduce, for me, the nagging feeling that I could be doing more, and that, thus, I ought to do more.
I prewrote my posts and saved them as HTML files on my computer, and then pasted them into the metafilter.com new post form when my alarm went off and it was time for the next post.
A 12-hour limit would probably work fine for me too.
posted by brainwane at 7:59 AM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Note that we already have one meta open about how the mods cannot screen for far right content in long form video.
posted by Artw at 8:01 AM on October 11, 2023
posted by Artw at 8:01 AM on October 11, 2023
Can’t or don’t, there are a LOT of problems with the mods right now. I can see infinity posting devolving into a stream of posts like the one in the meta and the mods only having time for rite routine stuff which means squatting in the comments threads deleting anyone who is rude about the posts.
posted by Artw at 8:11 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:11 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I fully endorse keeping the posting rate as high as it can be without getting outright spammed or overwhelming mods. One hour? Two hours? Take it off entirely and see how that goes?
Once upon a time, we had too much content. Too many posts. Those glory days will probably never return. Let's revisit our assumptions.
posted by Tomorrowful at 8:27 AM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Once upon a time, we had too much content. Too many posts. Those glory days will probably never return. Let's revisit our assumptions.
posted by Tomorrowful at 8:27 AM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
What problems do the mods have? There’s so little content here, they have very little work to do. There’s no chance they’re getting overwhelmed.
posted by bowbeacon at 8:31 AM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 8:31 AM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
The first example wasn't a problem, it was a lack of effort. There's no problem identified there other than "Mod was alerted to content, chose not to investigate".
The second refers to a thread with 200 posts made over about 3 days. It's a completely managable number of posts for one person to deal with, let alone a team of moderators. This is not a large workload. It is a comically small workload, as content moderation goes.
posted by bowbeacon at 8:42 AM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
The second refers to a thread with 200 posts made over about 3 days. It's a completely managable number of posts for one person to deal with, let alone a team of moderators. This is not a large workload. It is a comically small workload, as content moderation goes.
posted by bowbeacon at 8:42 AM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think removing the limit altogether would probably be fine, but I've been wrong before, once or twice. How about we try it for a month and then reconvene?
posted by longtime_lurker at 8:59 AM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by longtime_lurker at 8:59 AM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
+1 try it and change it back if it is some big problem.
posted by Mid at 9:01 AM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Mid at 9:01 AM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I used to frequent this site quite a bit, but as the frequency of posts diminishes I find myself heading to other sites first. I think eliminating or reducing the post limit might help that (although realistically, there aren't very many posters that seem to be facing that problem regularly).
Tagalong pony request: Let us see what our contacts are flagging, or give us a new tool like tags so we can see that our contacts find something fun|fascinating|problematic|important.
posted by Night_owl at 9:29 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tagalong pony request: Let us see what our contacts are flagging, or give us a new tool like tags so we can see that our contacts find something fun|fascinating|problematic|important.
posted by Night_owl at 9:29 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
it could be a weekly limit of say 7 posts. You could post 7 in the same day but then you'd have to wait a week.
I do think there's a strong argument for the current rules being too restrictive, but I also think that removing all restrictions could tip the site in a sort of reckless direction.
So in that spirit, what about something like:
- no more than three posts per day (at least ** hours apart)?
- no more than ten posts total per week?
posted by philip-random at 10:03 AM on October 11, 2023
I do think there's a strong argument for the current rules being too restrictive, but I also think that removing all restrictions could tip the site in a sort of reckless direction.
So in that spirit, what about something like:
- no more than three posts per day (at least ** hours apart)?
- no more than ten posts total per week?
posted by philip-random at 10:03 AM on October 11, 2023
The AskMe limit was loosened, and we are fine. I would love to see the limit removed on the blue, too.
If things turn into a shitshow, it should be straightforward enough to reinstate it.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:50 AM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
If things turn into a shitshow, it should be straightforward enough to reinstate it.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:50 AM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Every time someone posts, reduce the waiting time by one minute. Keep doing this until it causes a problem and then raise the waiting time by one minute and leave it there forever.
posted by snofoam at 10:54 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snofoam at 10:54 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't see this alternative mentioned above: Allow anyone to compose a new post anytime they want to, including right after posting something. Warn them, when they start the process and all during the process of creating that post, that this new post will not go live until ____ [a specified time that is 12, 16, 24 or whatever number of hours after the first pos]. During that waiting period, they have the option to delete the pending post (but not to modify it once the Publish button is pushed. (Reason: especially for current events, something may change during the waiting time.) Limit them to one pending post, no more. I think this solves every problem cited above.
posted by beagle at 11:29 AM on October 11, 2023
posted by beagle at 11:29 AM on October 11, 2023
Just remove the restriction and if it becomes and issue put it back or tweak it. This is not rocket science.
Encourage more posting from more people.
posted by bondcliff at 11:36 AM on October 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
Encourage more posting from more people.
posted by bondcliff at 11:36 AM on October 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
if anything there seems to be a decline in number of posts on the front page
I don't think there's any doubt there's been a big decline in the number of posts on the front page. Maybe someone else can run the numbers, but my guess is that the number of posts/day on the blue is at its lowest point since the early years when Matt did most of the posting himself.
posted by mediareport at 11:40 AM on October 11, 2023
I don't think there's any doubt there's been a big decline in the number of posts on the front page. Maybe someone else can run the numbers, but my guess is that the number of posts/day on the blue is at its lowest point since the early years when Matt did most of the posting himself.
posted by mediareport at 11:40 AM on October 11, 2023
In theory this would encourage more posting from fewer people, as the "more" of the "people" simply aren't posting at all.
posted by hippybear at 11:41 AM on October 11, 2023
posted by hippybear at 11:41 AM on October 11, 2023
We already are in a situation of "more posting from fewer people," though.
posted by mediareport at 11:43 AM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 11:43 AM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
We're in a situation of basically maximum posting from a few people, and very few posts from hardly anyone else except the random scattered moment.
I mean, if the concept is to get more, varied posts on the front page, we need a campaign to encourage people to create FPPs who aren't the usual list of people who do them all the time.
posted by hippybear at 11:45 AM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I mean, if the concept is to get more, varied posts on the front page, we need a campaign to encourage people to create FPPs who aren't the usual list of people who do them all the time.
posted by hippybear at 11:45 AM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
A shorter posting interval will help with that, imo. Makes it easier for everyone. That's good!
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:47 AM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:47 AM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
The worst case scenario is that some people make it their own blog and make multiple posts per day - if so then it can be handled on a case-by-case basis.
There has been quite a bit of call to reduce the number of ill defined guidelines/restrictions. I don't agree in many cases but I think this particular limit is one where a hard ceiling is appropriate and easy to articulate.
posted by Mitheral at 11:49 AM on October 11, 2023
There has been quite a bit of call to reduce the number of ill defined guidelines/restrictions. I don't agree in many cases but I think this particular limit is one where a hard ceiling is appropriate and easy to articulate.
posted by Mitheral at 11:49 AM on October 11, 2023
I agree we need to encourage more posting, but prudence suggests reducing the time limit rather than removing it altogether;I think 12-16 hours would be fine. It'd also be nice to allow composing a post ahead of the limit, but I suspect that would require more of a coding effort than changing one constant.
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:15 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:15 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think it's likely that removing the limit altogether will increase the number of people who post at all.
Consider the well-known observation that players often finish RPG video games with, for example, the maximum of 99x health potions, due to an aversion to using scarce resources. Removing the artificial scarcity altogether is how we get people to drink their potions; increasing the inventory max to 999x is not.
posted by 4th number at 12:27 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Consider the well-known observation that players often finish RPG video games with, for example, the maximum of 99x health potions, due to an aversion to using scarce resources. Removing the artificial scarcity altogether is how we get people to drink their potions; increasing the inventory max to 999x is not.
posted by 4th number at 12:27 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
When I look at MetaFilter in RSS and see a lot of posts from the same few people, it makes the site seem dead. I usually scroll by because I feel the posts will be samey.
I'm inclined to think that the limit shouldn't be on the number of posts in a time span. It should be on the number of posts in a page. So, if one of your posts is among the last 12 posts, you can't post another one until there are 11 posts from other people after your last post. (12 can also be some other number.)
posted by ignignokt at 1:37 PM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm inclined to think that the limit shouldn't be on the number of posts in a time span. It should be on the number of posts in a page. So, if one of your posts is among the last 12 posts, you can't post another one until there are 11 posts from other people after your last post. (12 can also be some other number.)
posted by ignignokt at 1:37 PM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
If I understand the problem then raising it to a two post a day limit would probably be more satisfying for everyone involved. It would boil down to the same results as a 12 hour limit and would remove the clock-watching aspect.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:12 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:12 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
i think the primary practical result of this proposed change will be a higher quantity of lower quality post: more clickbait ragefilter/newsfilter "high engagement" content on the front page with little noticeable increase in "cool stuff we found on the web". the cool stuff takes more time to find, curate, flesh out and present, so in a way it is sort of naturally limiting in the quantity of posts. the other stuff is infinite and ubiquitous.
if this proposal is adopted then as a complement i also want the ability to block posters and hide FPPs with per-post & per-user granularity to mitigate certain users who tend to only make topical ragebait single-link newfilter posts.
it appears most of you here in this thread disagree, but to me what this looks like is "it has become neccessary to destroy metafilter in order to save it"
posted by glonous keming at 2:32 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
if this proposal is adopted then as a complement i also want the ability to block posters and hide FPPs with per-post & per-user granularity to mitigate certain users who tend to only make topical ragebait single-link newfilter posts.
it appears most of you here in this thread disagree, but to me what this looks like is "it has become neccessary to destroy metafilter in order to save it"
posted by glonous keming at 2:32 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Just making the simple change from "24 hours to the second from your last post" to "You can make one post to the front page every calendar day" (which is how the front page gets divided anyway) would be useful.
posted by mediareport at 2:55 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 2:55 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
glonous keming: "i think the primary practical result of this proposed change will be a higher quantity of lower quality post: more clickbait ragefilter/newsfilter "high engagement" content on the front page with little noticeable increase in "cool stuff we found on the web". the cool stuff takes more time to find, curate, flesh out and present, so in a way it is sort of naturally limiting in the quantity of posts. the other stuff is infinite and ubiquitous."
Maybe if the limit were removed entirely? Even that hasn't destroyed AskMe, though. The incentives for posting there are a bit different, but in the last 12 months even the most prolific (non-Anonymous) asker has posted only 74 questions, with everybody else under 50. That's one question every 5-7 days, and without the need to find and write up a link.
As for the original proposal, I can't see the harm from saying, at worst, "you can post once in the morning and once at night," or (more practically) "you can still post just once a day, but at any time of the day instead of strictly the same time you posted yesterday or later" (which mediareport's suggestion would also achieve, though I guess that would allow somebody to double-post around midnight if they wanted). The 12-hour idea isn't so much about increasing the number of posts as it is giving some welcome flexibility re: what *time* you can post, without having to come up with some more complicated cooldown system. Doing 16 or 18 hours would accomplish much the same thing, I just figured 12 hours would be easier to remember.
posted by Rhaomi at 2:59 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Maybe if the limit were removed entirely? Even that hasn't destroyed AskMe, though. The incentives for posting there are a bit different, but in the last 12 months even the most prolific (non-Anonymous) asker has posted only 74 questions, with everybody else under 50. That's one question every 5-7 days, and without the need to find and write up a link.
As for the original proposal, I can't see the harm from saying, at worst, "you can post once in the morning and once at night," or (more practically) "you can still post just once a day, but at any time of the day instead of strictly the same time you posted yesterday or later" (which mediareport's suggestion would also achieve, though I guess that would allow somebody to double-post around midnight if they wanted). The 12-hour idea isn't so much about increasing the number of posts as it is giving some welcome flexibility re: what *time* you can post, without having to come up with some more complicated cooldown system. Doing 16 or 18 hours would accomplish much the same thing, I just figured 12 hours would be easier to remember.
posted by Rhaomi at 2:59 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
"You can make one post to the front page every calendar day" (which is how the front page gets divided anyway) would be useful
This may not be as useful as it seems. A 'calendar day' is not the same day everywhere. It's currently Thursday 12 October morning here, but it's still Wednesday 11 October in some places. Not that it's impossible at all, but a change that requires (relatively) minimal back-end work compared to changing everything would be preferable.
posted by dg at 3:08 PM on October 11, 2023
This may not be as useful as it seems. A 'calendar day' is not the same day everywhere. It's currently Thursday 12 October morning here, but it's still Wednesday 11 October in some places. Not that it's impossible at all, but a change that requires (relatively) minimal back-end work compared to changing everything would be preferable.
posted by dg at 3:08 PM on October 11, 2023
Ok, then as Rhaomi has suggested again, just changing the time limit from 24 hours to 12 or 16 hours seems like a pretty easy back-end fix.
Or removing the time limit completely, adding a sentence to the posting page like "Please do not post more than once per day" and trusting the community to honor that (and contacting folks who abuse it) could work, too.
posted by mediareport at 3:14 PM on October 11, 2023
Or removing the time limit completely, adding a sentence to the posting page like "Please do not post more than once per day" and trusting the community to honor that (and contacting folks who abuse it) could work, too.
posted by mediareport at 3:14 PM on October 11, 2023
20 FPPs a day - total. No more posts once 20 is reached. Every quarter the person that has posted the second most FPPs gets a shirt that says “I am a Metafilter SuperPoster!” The person that posts the most FPPs is banned.
posted by Diskeater at 3:15 PM on October 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Diskeater at 3:15 PM on October 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
Two posts per person, per day, but one of the posts has to be about potatoes.
posted by snofoam at 3:53 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 3:53 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
the cool stuff takes more time to find, curate, flesh out and present, so in a way it is sort of naturally limiting in the quantity of posts.
On the other hand coming across cool stuff tends to happen all at once, and putting together multiple posts while they're in the mood may be more agreeable to people's actual process.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:21 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the other hand coming across cool stuff tends to happen all at once, and putting together multiple posts while they're in the mood may be more agreeable to people's actual process.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:21 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Two posts per person, per day, but one of the posts has to be about potatoes.
One post MAX about taters, though.
posted by kensington314 at 4:28 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Every post beyond your one post per 24 hours is hidden to everyone except you and other users who have also posted more than once per 24 hours. The more you post in 24 hours, the deeper you can go. People who post three times in 24 hours can see the posts of others who have posted 1-3 times in 24 hours. Those who post 999 times in 24 hours can see the posts of those who have posted 1-999 times in the last 24 hours, but not that of the prolific esoteric who has posted 1000 times in the last 24 hours.
And so forth!
posted by ignignokt at 4:52 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
And so forth!
posted by ignignokt at 4:52 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Maybe if the limit were removed entirely? Even that hasn't destroyed AskMe, though. The incentives for posting there are a bit different, but in the last 12 months even the most prolific (non-Anonymous) asker has posted only 74 questions, with everybody else under 50. That's one question every 5-7 days, and without the need to find and write up a link.
LOL...it's me! I'm the most prolific asker! Yes, I basically now use AskMe as my personal problem-solving committee, it's true. I will try to answer more questions (when I know stuff, not just talk for the sake of talking) to at least bring about a little reciprocity. Or maybe I could make an FPP for every 5 questions or something, just as a different way to contribute.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:13 PM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
LOL...it's me! I'm the most prolific asker! Yes, I basically now use AskMe as my personal problem-solving committee, it's true. I will try to answer more questions (when I know stuff, not just talk for the sake of talking) to at least bring about a little reciprocity. Or maybe I could make an FPP for every 5 questions or something, just as a different way to contribute.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:13 PM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
LOL...it's me! I'm the most prolific asker!
Almost certainly not. And anyway your questions are varied and interesting, which makes them of as much value as the answers they receive.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:18 PM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Almost certainly not. And anyway your questions are varied and interesting, which makes them of as much value as the answers they receive.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:18 PM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ok, I just went through the first two pages of AskMe and I have nothing to offer except a DTMFA that has been said plenty so I don't want to pile on. Could other people please ask more questions so I stand out less and also ask questions about stuff I know about so I can contribute. TIA.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:22 PM on October 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:22 PM on October 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think it would be fine to go to a 12 or 16 hour front page post limit.
posted by mollweide at 6:18 PM on October 11, 2023
posted by mollweide at 6:18 PM on October 11, 2023
Just remove the limit. If this actually creates a problem then deal with it.
posted by JenMarie at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by JenMarie at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Maybe remove the limit, and if it actually creates a problem don't worry about it.
Hard to imagine a consequent problem the solving of which is worth risking upsetting the small subset of post submitters we have left.
Let's also try to avoid spending any more than minimal development time on any changes made. Some suggestions are interesting but ultimately more complex to implement than strictly necessary.
posted by otsebyatina at 9:39 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hard to imagine a consequent problem the solving of which is worth risking upsetting the small subset of post submitters we have left.
Let's also try to avoid spending any more than minimal development time on any changes made. Some suggestions are interesting but ultimately more complex to implement than strictly necessary.
posted by otsebyatina at 9:39 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Once per calendar day.
Back in the day, when I was at The University, ATMs would only let you withdraw $100 per calendar day. Well, on a Friday night when you and your buddies were trying to score an 8-ball, you would withdraw your $100 at 11:59, wait two minutes and take out another $100. (Then, when you woke up from that mess, you would realize that you just spent all your monthly budget in the first week of the month.) Regardless, it worked as a governor. I think once per calendar day regardless of the time between would be best. You make your own time difference. It could be minutes or 24 hours.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 11:05 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Back in the day, when I was at The University, ATMs would only let you withdraw $100 per calendar day. Well, on a Friday night when you and your buddies were trying to score an 8-ball, you would withdraw your $100 at 11:59, wait two minutes and take out another $100. (Then, when you woke up from that mess, you would realize that you just spent all your monthly budget in the first week of the month.) Regardless, it worked as a governor. I think once per calendar day regardless of the time between would be best. You make your own time difference. It could be minutes or 24 hours.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 11:05 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think something that would be nice is if someone from staff could weigh in on these kind of requests, at least with an informed opinion on what kind of technical lift it would be. Or to say "let's try it, we'll add it to the development queue". Or even just to say "no". Something to show that these discussions don't just die on the vine.
Active site management! Engagement!
posted by Think_Long at 7:30 AM on October 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Active site management! Engagement!
posted by Think_Long at 7:30 AM on October 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think something that would be nice is if someone from staff could weigh in on these kind of requests, at least with an informed opinion on what kind of technical lift it would be.
I believe it is being looked into as a possibility, not promised it'll be changed or when.
Speaking just for myself, I think changing it to 12 hours is a great idea! If that's done, we can see how it goes and decide if the time limit should be dropped further or removed.
Personally, I think having a bit of limit would be good, with the idea that it encourages people to give a little thought to what they're posting instead of just putting up the first thing that comes to mind. But I could be wrong about that, as removing barriers to posting might work out well in this instance. Perhaps just one post every 2 hours would be good limit? If someone repeatedly posts every 2:01 on particular subject, folks could just flag it and mods could take a look and make a call.
'Cause repeatedly posting about astronomy would probably go over well, while repeatedly posting that Hawaiian pizza is awful would not be ok.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:45 AM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I believe it is being looked into as a possibility, not promised it'll be changed or when.
Speaking just for myself, I think changing it to 12 hours is a great idea! If that's done, we can see how it goes and decide if the time limit should be dropped further or removed.
Personally, I think having a bit of limit would be good, with the idea that it encourages people to give a little thought to what they're posting instead of just putting up the first thing that comes to mind. But I could be wrong about that, as removing barriers to posting might work out well in this instance. Perhaps just one post every 2 hours would be good limit? If someone repeatedly posts every 2:01 on particular subject, folks could just flag it and mods could take a look and make a call.
'Cause repeatedly posting about astronomy would probably go over well, while repeatedly posting that Hawaiian pizza is awful would not be ok.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:45 AM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Thanks BB - and sorry, did not intend to come across so salty!
posted by Think_Long at 7:47 AM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Think_Long at 7:47 AM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
All good, left a note for management to take a look at this at this thread.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:49 AM on October 12, 2023
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:49 AM on October 12, 2023
I'm really disheartened by the suggestion that management has to be told to "check in" on a thread that is directly about the way that members produce content for the site.
This isn't a busy thread, there have been 73 posts in about 2 business days. Keeping up to date with the goings-on here, and participating in the conversation in SOME way is just basic table stakes for running a message board. It would take almost no effort in an 8 hour workday to read the new comments twice, and give some indication of whether this is possible, or completely off the table. The technical change is a total of two characters in the code. 1 character if they just changed things to 20 hours! So this is solely a policy change, not a technical challenge.
And instead of just poking into the thread and saying "yeah, we'll try it, I bet nobody will even notice!" Or "No, 'this is not your personal blog' is a fundamental design feature of the site, and we'd rather not mess with it", we've had two days of weirdly contentious discussion, including a few people claiming that they will quit the site if things are changed...this is what high touch moderation should be involved in. Moderation isn't only about deleting threads 3 days after they have been posted because of racist halloween makeup. Moderation is about shaping the discussion and preventing pointless arguments from happening.
posted by bowbeacon at 7:59 AM on October 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
This isn't a busy thread, there have been 73 posts in about 2 business days. Keeping up to date with the goings-on here, and participating in the conversation in SOME way is just basic table stakes for running a message board. It would take almost no effort in an 8 hour workday to read the new comments twice, and give some indication of whether this is possible, or completely off the table. The technical change is a total of two characters in the code. 1 character if they just changed things to 20 hours! So this is solely a policy change, not a technical challenge.
And instead of just poking into the thread and saying "yeah, we'll try it, I bet nobody will even notice!" Or "No, 'this is not your personal blog' is a fundamental design feature of the site, and we'd rather not mess with it", we've had two days of weirdly contentious discussion, including a few people claiming that they will quit the site if things are changed...this is what high touch moderation should be involved in. Moderation isn't only about deleting threads 3 days after they have been posted because of racist halloween makeup. Moderation is about shaping the discussion and preventing pointless arguments from happening.
posted by bowbeacon at 7:59 AM on October 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
I find the FPP posting form to be a bit of a UX challenge, and this probably creates a bit of friction especially for first-time posters. There's five fields and the "optional" bits in them are a bit confusing. It still feels a little daunting/confusing to me, anyway, and I've made 58 FPPs. How many posts do we not see because the form is obtuse and folks, not wanting to fuck up their first post (or fifty ninth), just give it a miss? A bit of rework there would help, in addition to reducing the wait time for reposts to 16 hours or less.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:38 AM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:38 AM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
The technical change is a total of two characters in the code. 1 character if they just changed things to 20 hours! So this is solely a policy change, not a technical challenge.
I don't know if you're new to software engineering, but anyone who has ever worked on a codebase that's over ten years old knows that it could very well be a technical challenge, and one that may affect the software's behavior in places you don't expect.
I suspect you're also being cavalier about how much time the mods have. For one thing, I don't think they all work eight hours a day, and I don't think you've considered how careful you have to be when writing what is essentially customer correspondence. MetaTalk is particularly vicious, so if I worked here, no, I would not be casual about dropping anything in these threads, even something seemingly innocuous, unless I had triple-checked it to make sure it was completely free of handholds for the hostile.
For example, just saying ""No, 'this is not your personal blog'" as you suggested would almost certainly trigger intense responses that would require further responses from the mod.
In general, I beseech people to not go to people's jobs and tell them it's easy and they suck at it without really thinking about it first. It's common to notice when people are being like this to waitstaff, but it seems like people just don't make the connection in other domains.
posted by ignignokt at 9:57 AM on October 12, 2023 [31 favorites]
I don't know if you're new to software engineering, but anyone who has ever worked on a codebase that's over ten years old knows that it could very well be a technical challenge, and one that may affect the software's behavior in places you don't expect.
I suspect you're also being cavalier about how much time the mods have. For one thing, I don't think they all work eight hours a day, and I don't think you've considered how careful you have to be when writing what is essentially customer correspondence. MetaTalk is particularly vicious, so if I worked here, no, I would not be casual about dropping anything in these threads, even something seemingly innocuous, unless I had triple-checked it to make sure it was completely free of handholds for the hostile.
For example, just saying ""No, 'this is not your personal blog'" as you suggested would almost certainly trigger intense responses that would require further responses from the mod.
In general, I beseech people to not go to people's jobs and tell them it's easy and they suck at it without really thinking about it first. It's common to notice when people are being like this to waitstaff, but it seems like people just don't make the connection in other domains.
posted by ignignokt at 9:57 AM on October 12, 2023 [31 favorites]
Catching up:
hippybear: "[I will add, using the AskMe "New Question" form to compose a new post for the Blue is a great thing. It's the same editor, but as long as you never ever choose a question topic, you can never accidentally post the question. So you can compose and edit all you want and never get a Post button that you might hit by accident. Then it's just a cut-and-paste job to move it over to a new MeFi post form once your new window is open.]"
This is a good suggestion and one I use sometimes! Unfortunately it doesn't detect doubles, doesn't let you check tags, and doesn't save draft posts for later, plus the whole having to copy-paste over thing (not fun on mobile).
bowbeacon: "we've had two days of weirdly contentious discussion, including a few people claiming that they will quit the site if things are changed"
But this hasn't happened at all? Let alone multiple times. Some folks didn't like the idea of nixing the limit altogether, but nobody's threatened to quit the site over it, unless there was some wild overreaction that got deleted.
(Thanks for that update, BB!)
posted by Rhaomi at 11:01 AM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
hippybear: "[I will add, using the AskMe "New Question" form to compose a new post for the Blue is a great thing. It's the same editor, but as long as you never ever choose a question topic, you can never accidentally post the question. So you can compose and edit all you want and never get a Post button that you might hit by accident. Then it's just a cut-and-paste job to move it over to a new MeFi post form once your new window is open.]"
This is a good suggestion and one I use sometimes! Unfortunately it doesn't detect doubles, doesn't let you check tags, and doesn't save draft posts for later, plus the whole having to copy-paste over thing (not fun on mobile).
bowbeacon: "we've had two days of weirdly contentious discussion, including a few people claiming that they will quit the site if things are changed"
But this hasn't happened at all? Let alone multiple times. Some folks didn't like the idea of nixing the limit altogether, but nobody's threatened to quit the site over it, unless there was some wild overreaction that got deleted.
(Thanks for that update, BB!)
posted by Rhaomi at 11:01 AM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Fair. I was misremembering this
if this proposal is adopted then as a complement i also want the ability to block posters and hide FPPs with per-post & per-user granularity to mitigate certain users who tend to only make topical ragebait single-link newfilter posts.
it appears most of you here in this thread disagree, but to me what this looks like is "it has become neccessary to destroy metafilter in order to save it"
posted by bowbeacon at 11:08 AM on October 12, 2023
if this proposal is adopted then as a complement i also want the ability to block posters and hide FPPs with per-post & per-user granularity to mitigate certain users who tend to only make topical ragebait single-link newfilter posts.
it appears most of you here in this thread disagree, but to me what this looks like is "it has become neccessary to destroy metafilter in order to save it"
posted by bowbeacon at 11:08 AM on October 12, 2023
This isn't a busy thread, there have been 73 posts in about 2 business days. Keeping up to date with the goings-on here, and participating in the conversation in SOME way is just basic table stakes for running a message board. It would take almost no effort in an 8 hour workday to read the new comments twice, and give some indication of whether this is possible, or completely off the table.
There's nothing problematic about asking for what you want. Your participation in the last few MetaTalk threads makes it clear that you are interested in faster mod responses in MetaTalk. Totally understandable, and I think there are polite ways to express that.
I don't think that needs to be accompanied by sneering at how easy the mods' jobs are. You simply don't know whether you have an accurate read on how lazy the mods are, and if you're wrong (because there might be other threads or issues serving as a mod-attention-black-hole), it might come across as a little rude. You almost certainly do have an accurate read on what you want. So why not just ask for what you want?
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 11:44 AM on October 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
There's nothing problematic about asking for what you want. Your participation in the last few MetaTalk threads makes it clear that you are interested in faster mod responses in MetaTalk. Totally understandable, and I think there are polite ways to express that.
I don't think that needs to be accompanied by sneering at how easy the mods' jobs are. You simply don't know whether you have an accurate read on how lazy the mods are, and if you're wrong (because there might be other threads or issues serving as a mod-attention-black-hole), it might come across as a little rude. You almost certainly do have an accurate read on what you want. So why not just ask for what you want?
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 11:44 AM on October 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
More posts! Make 'em interesting! Yes, plz.
posted by theora55 at 7:51 PM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 7:51 PM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
because there might be other threads or issues serving as a mod-attention-black-hole
There's actually a fast moving Israel/Palestine thread for the first time in, I think, over a decade? I'm sure keeping it civil and on topic is sucking up a lot of mod attention. Altogether I don't think MetaTalk should be a priority in limited mod time, this is very inside baseball.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 8:18 PM on October 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
There's actually a fast moving Israel/Palestine thread for the first time in, I think, over a decade? I'm sure keeping it civil and on topic is sucking up a lot of mod attention. Altogether I don't think MetaTalk should be a priority in limited mod time, this is very inside baseball.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 8:18 PM on October 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes, okay, but what I find curious about this and other threads about the community at large where mod input would be useful, is that a MeTa thread HAS TO BE APPROVED BY MODS before it goes live. Like, there is no reason for this to even be here being talked about unless someone on the moderation team has decided to make it public. Surely that step of approval should have built into it a bit of "we need to pay attention to this thread, it's about the community" built into it, and if they don't have the time for the thread, they just keep it in the hopper? That's why they started this whole queue for posting here in the first place!
posted by hippybear at 8:38 PM on October 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:38 PM on October 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's now been 26 hours since management was asked to "check in on this thread", which asks the website staff a simple, direct question about an easy-to-change feature. They have not done so.
It has been 8 days since a member asked a simple, direct question to the staff about promoting the Metafilter Mall. Staff has not commented in the thread at all.
Look, I know there's a 500 post thread over the past 5 days about Israel. I know that there's other stuff happening in the world. I know that answers can't come literally instantly. And I know that some of you think I'm beating a dead horse.
But this is a dead horse that members are paying $10k+ a month. And these are not hard, complicated questions. Again, I'm not even asking for GOOD answers! I'm asking for an answer, any answer at all.
This absolute wall of silence has been an issue in multiple threads, going back months or years. And sometimes, the threads are angry callout threads where the silence is maybe self-protection. But this is a thread about literally changing one number in the source code of this site to make people's posting schedules easier. This is a yes or a no, and is a situation where trying something and reversing it is just...it's basically cost-free.
So, seriouisly, what the hell is up? Why is this SUCH a constant? Is there a reason that nobody wants to comment "No, we're not going to change this"? Is that so hard?
posted by bowbeacon at 9:20 AM on October 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
It has been 8 days since a member asked a simple, direct question to the staff about promoting the Metafilter Mall. Staff has not commented in the thread at all.
Look, I know there's a 500 post thread over the past 5 days about Israel. I know that there's other stuff happening in the world. I know that answers can't come literally instantly. And I know that some of you think I'm beating a dead horse.
But this is a dead horse that members are paying $10k+ a month. And these are not hard, complicated questions. Again, I'm not even asking for GOOD answers! I'm asking for an answer, any answer at all.
This absolute wall of silence has been an issue in multiple threads, going back months or years. And sometimes, the threads are angry callout threads where the silence is maybe self-protection. But this is a thread about literally changing one number in the source code of this site to make people's posting schedules easier. This is a yes or a no, and is a situation where trying something and reversing it is just...it's basically cost-free.
So, seriouisly, what the hell is up? Why is this SUCH a constant? Is there a reason that nobody wants to comment "No, we're not going to change this"? Is that so hard?
posted by bowbeacon at 9:20 AM on October 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
we get it, you're impatient
posted by sagc at 9:23 AM on October 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by sagc at 9:23 AM on October 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeesh, are there really folks here who *don't* think bowbeacon is making a strong point? Yes, we have no idea how mods spend their time; their current shift hours are not clear; the specific duties each of them is asked to complete during a shift is at best vague, and moderation in general, especially over the last few months, has pretty much been an enormous black box whose contents we have little idea about.
To treat something like a simple "these are good thoughts, we'll talk about it and get back to you" after two days of confused discussion in a MeTa the mods themselves approved as some sort of HUGELY RUDE AND IMPATIENT ask is fucking ridiculous.
I'll also add that we have no idea how mods spend their time; their current shift hours are not clear; the specific duties each of them is asked to complete during a shift is at best vague, and moderation in general, especially over the last few months, has pretty much been an enormous black box whose contents we have little idea about. Just in case you missed it the first time.
posted by mediareport at 9:51 AM on October 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
To treat something like a simple "these are good thoughts, we'll talk about it and get back to you" after two days of confused discussion in a MeTa the mods themselves approved as some sort of HUGELY RUDE AND IMPATIENT ask is fucking ridiculous.
I'll also add that we have no idea how mods spend their time; their current shift hours are not clear; the specific duties each of them is asked to complete during a shift is at best vague, and moderation in general, especially over the last few months, has pretty much been an enormous black box whose contents we have little idea about. Just in case you missed it the first time.
posted by mediareport at 9:51 AM on October 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
I mean, I think it was a strong point the first time it was made, but it's kind of in "dragging your dead horse from thread to thread so you can continue to beat it" territory at this point.
posted by sagc at 9:52 AM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by sagc at 9:52 AM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Gosh, can you think of anything that might fix that? You know, like a mod statement that isn't also making sure to say it's just speaking for that mod, not the site leadership?
I dunno, could work.
posted by mediareport at 9:55 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I dunno, could work.
posted by mediareport at 9:55 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also it's been 3 threads. One of which was a literal "Site Update" thread that got no mod responses for 2 days. This is not a long-time hobbyhorse of mine, it's just something that has become incredibly apparent in the last month, to me.
posted by bowbeacon at 10:02 AM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bowbeacon at 10:02 AM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Perhaps they're waiting for the community to settle down one way or another. The mods are supposed to be benevolent dictators and rather than pushing the direction one way or another they're just waiting for a consensus to emerge.
Perhaps to satisfy bowbeacon's impatience they could periodically comment "We're listening".
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:22 AM on October 13, 2023
Perhaps to satisfy bowbeacon's impatience they could periodically comment "We're listening".
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:22 AM on October 13, 2023
And for everyone: urgent expectations of someone you paid $5 to once are a bit strange.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:24 AM on October 13, 2023
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:24 AM on October 13, 2023
Considering that this is essentially a member supported website at this time, that any given member's financial support was only $5 one time long ago is pretty likely to be a false premise. And even if it was, even people who don't or can't make ongoing financial contributions are part of the community. Treating them as if their requests don't matter because they aren't actively paying to be here is not community building.
We used to get more regular participation from mods and owners in Meta and sometimes that caused its own shitstorm, so I can understand why there may be reluctance on the part of mods to say anything too much in these threads. But the pendulum has swung so far in the other direction these days that I can also understand why people feel like their ideas and opinions aren't being listened to by the site's stewards.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:11 AM on October 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
We used to get more regular participation from mods and owners in Meta and sometimes that caused its own shitstorm, so I can understand why there may be reluctance on the part of mods to say anything too much in these threads. But the pendulum has swung so far in the other direction these days that I can also understand why people feel like their ideas and opinions aren't being listened to by the site's stewards.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:11 AM on October 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
Everyone’s requests matter, but getting responses in a matter of hours is something you pay quite a bit for from any organization. An insistence on getting service far beyond what any commercial enterprise regularly provides is setting yourself up for disappointment.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:30 PM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:30 PM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
There is one key disconnect whenever this comes up, lack of mod response / level of service, etc.
Their JOB is to monitor (i.e., read and react to) the shit written on this website. For people to say "the mods cannot respond here, they are too busy doing their jobs" is just silly. This is their job.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:13 PM on October 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Their JOB is to monitor (i.e., read and react to) the shit written on this website. For people to say "the mods cannot respond here, they are too busy doing their jobs" is just silly. This is their job.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:13 PM on October 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
From tracking the old MeTa history, removing the flagging limit in ask took something like six+ months from initial discussion to implementation, and the last 1+ month of that appears to have been a delay simply getting it to work (initial discussion that I found was Sep 2021 in a really awful MeTa thread, decided ~ Dec 2021, announced as happening "soon" in late Jan 2022 with technical work planned, happens for real in early Mar 2022). Beyond the part that appeared to be tech delays, some of the lag was in planning to ensure moderation coverage when the change happened. I'm sure many people have their thoughts on this overall situation, but it seems simply unreasonable at a practical level to expect instantaneous action and response on this kind of change from what is essentially a very similar organization with very similar resources and tech stack to just a year and a half ago. If you think the organization should be different than this, well, I wouldn't really argue, and in some ways it already is (whatever happens with this thread, I imagine it will substantially improve on the 6 month bar). But given the ongoing fairly complicated transition, I also can't really see that demanding ultra-rapid responses and grandstanding about how easy this particular change must be will do much good here and now.
Moreover, I'm really unclear on who even can make this decision right now, and therefore who (if anyone's) job it is to read for decision-making purposes and respond to threads like this. Actually, it seems very clear to me that this almost certainly isn't a regular moderation job. Maybe it's loup? But I don't really get the sense that that is what "operations" covers, perhaps I'm wrong. Previously it could have been (and for the ask change I guess it likely was) cortex, but jessamyn intentionally isn't that kind of owner as I understand it. For a while it might have been the steering committee, but that obviously isn't happening at the moment. Maybe it's some sort of collective decision process among current staff? Anyways, perhaps it would help to get some clarity on who it is right now that actually could/would make a relatively major (?) but well-liked site policy change.
posted by advil at 3:18 PM on October 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Moreover, I'm really unclear on who even can make this decision right now, and therefore who (if anyone's) job it is to read for decision-making purposes and respond to threads like this. Actually, it seems very clear to me that this almost certainly isn't a regular moderation job. Maybe it's loup? But I don't really get the sense that that is what "operations" covers, perhaps I'm wrong. Previously it could have been (and for the ask change I guess it likely was) cortex, but jessamyn intentionally isn't that kind of owner as I understand it. For a while it might have been the steering committee, but that obviously isn't happening at the moment. Maybe it's some sort of collective decision process among current staff? Anyways, perhaps it would help to get some clarity on who it is right now that actually could/would make a relatively major (?) but well-liked site policy change.
posted by advil at 3:18 PM on October 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
For a question like this, even in a normal organization, it would take time - to see if the mods agree this is a good change, get in touch with frimble to scope it, prioritize it against things, and get back to everyone.
In this organization, I think there’s probably a lot of things that are communicated in a day around moderation I guessing — more than might be ideal — so there’s likely a big list of things to talk about with limited overlap/time for Slack/etc.
And people are working part time across time zones. There’s historic and other reasons for that but it comes with inefficiencies baked in.
As someone who’s generally worked with full-time teams in the same time zone, where the culture is also to stay available via chat on off hours, I’m aware that my expectations are probably set fairly high. When I switched to small business, customers often wanted an answer quickly, just like I had, but from the inside, our hours were 2-10 pm m-th and 2-7 Fri and 8-1 Sat and we had few people with access to billing info for good reasons, so if you emailed at 9 am Friday with a billing question, you might not get a call back until Saturday, depending on what the full time but not 9-5 person walked into at 2pm Friday.
It’s also hard, resource-wise, to juggle tasks that are “thread on fire” vs. “Do the things that will count long term,” vs things like “payroll and month end” and that balancing act will not always be what customers want. The less specialized the roles are the harder that balance gets.
I’m mentioning this not because I know what’s going on - I don’t - but if you’re deciding what’s a reasonable response time, please gather intel on the parameters and consider the expectations. In a MetaTalk it’s weird because…when do you declare consensus? Not everyone reads MT daily so assuming the first comments are definitive creates a bias.
As a systemic response though, one solution might be to acknowledge the ask regardless, and say “we meet to discuss code changes in the last week of every month and post in the first week” or whatever is true. People still won’t like waiting, but they’ll know when to look for an answer.
There are lots of other ways to manage this too.
I’m hoping saying this can lower the temperature a bit. I am an impatient person at times but empathy (in both directions) can go a long way.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:27 PM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
In this organization, I think there’s probably a lot of things that are communicated in a day around moderation I guessing — more than might be ideal — so there’s likely a big list of things to talk about with limited overlap/time for Slack/etc.
And people are working part time across time zones. There’s historic and other reasons for that but it comes with inefficiencies baked in.
As someone who’s generally worked with full-time teams in the same time zone, where the culture is also to stay available via chat on off hours, I’m aware that my expectations are probably set fairly high. When I switched to small business, customers often wanted an answer quickly, just like I had, but from the inside, our hours were 2-10 pm m-th and 2-7 Fri and 8-1 Sat and we had few people with access to billing info for good reasons, so if you emailed at 9 am Friday with a billing question, you might not get a call back until Saturday, depending on what the full time but not 9-5 person walked into at 2pm Friday.
It’s also hard, resource-wise, to juggle tasks that are “thread on fire” vs. “Do the things that will count long term,” vs things like “payroll and month end” and that balancing act will not always be what customers want. The less specialized the roles are the harder that balance gets.
I’m mentioning this not because I know what’s going on - I don’t - but if you’re deciding what’s a reasonable response time, please gather intel on the parameters and consider the expectations. In a MetaTalk it’s weird because…when do you declare consensus? Not everyone reads MT daily so assuming the first comments are definitive creates a bias.
As a systemic response though, one solution might be to acknowledge the ask regardless, and say “we meet to discuss code changes in the last week of every month and post in the first week” or whatever is true. People still won’t like waiting, but they’ll know when to look for an answer.
There are lots of other ways to manage this too.
I’m hoping saying this can lower the temperature a bit. I am an impatient person at times but empathy (in both directions) can go a long way.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:27 PM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’m mentioning this not because I know what’s going on - I don’t - but if you’re deciding what’s a reasonable response time, please gather intel on the parameters and consider the expectations. In a MetaTalk it’s weird because…when do you declare consensus? Not everyone reads MT daily so assuming the first comments are definitive creates a bias.
Honestly, I expect the moderation team, every single member of them, to be engaging here in MetaTalk threads such as this as if they were on the exact same level as any of us using the site, and engaging in discussion about these matters.
I feel like in the past, and I've been here a while, we'd have MeTa threads and mods would be in there, talking about the matter, discussing this take or taking down that approach, and it was WITH their involvement that some kind of center would be reached that, if not pleasing to everyone, was also not displeasing to everyone.
I feel like over the past long while there have been several things, and this is specifically about discussion of community matters, site policy, and other things which should have website employee involvement, there have been several things that have gone with basically zero moderator involvement at all. And when they have become involved, it has been either to hand down judgement from upon high or to be unofficially involved.
Neither of these are community-minded outcomes and none of them are working for what the members actually want, which is the sense that the moderation team actively is involved with what is happening on the website, are concerned with the same matters that the people participating here regularly feel are important, and are wanting the community of people who have no power but a lot of voice to feel like the people who have a lot of power but don't seem to want to use their voice are somehow on the same team here.
And right now, I'd assert that isn't the sense that is garnered by a MeTa such as this and several previous. The feeling is that the mod team basically ignores the discussions held by the users.
There are basic steps that could be done to rectify this.
I don't think this is a matter of impatience or unreasonable demands. We've had one involvement from one staff member in this thread that I've seen. Why the lack of conversation? We used to converse about these things, even back when things were a fuckton more hostile than they are now. But now...
Yeah, we'll see, I guess.
posted by hippybear at 4:01 PM on October 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Honestly, I expect the moderation team, every single member of them, to be engaging here in MetaTalk threads such as this as if they were on the exact same level as any of us using the site, and engaging in discussion about these matters.
I feel like in the past, and I've been here a while, we'd have MeTa threads and mods would be in there, talking about the matter, discussing this take or taking down that approach, and it was WITH their involvement that some kind of center would be reached that, if not pleasing to everyone, was also not displeasing to everyone.
I feel like over the past long while there have been several things, and this is specifically about discussion of community matters, site policy, and other things which should have website employee involvement, there have been several things that have gone with basically zero moderator involvement at all. And when they have become involved, it has been either to hand down judgement from upon high or to be unofficially involved.
Neither of these are community-minded outcomes and none of them are working for what the members actually want, which is the sense that the moderation team actively is involved with what is happening on the website, are concerned with the same matters that the people participating here regularly feel are important, and are wanting the community of people who have no power but a lot of voice to feel like the people who have a lot of power but don't seem to want to use their voice are somehow on the same team here.
And right now, I'd assert that isn't the sense that is garnered by a MeTa such as this and several previous. The feeling is that the mod team basically ignores the discussions held by the users.
There are basic steps that could be done to rectify this.
I don't think this is a matter of impatience or unreasonable demands. We've had one involvement from one staff member in this thread that I've seen. Why the lack of conversation? We used to converse about these things, even back when things were a fuckton more hostile than they are now. But now...
Yeah, we'll see, I guess.
posted by hippybear at 4:01 PM on October 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don’t entirely disagree hippybear but there have been a lot of changes in the last few years, both in terms of how people perceive work but also here, with the exception of Brandon I think, mods were hired into a small single-owner business, and now they’re working in the eve of a donor-funded nonprofit. Because ad revenue no longer pays the bills and that’s become clearer and clearer, the relationship is not the same. People are saying a lot “what are we paying you for” and that may change willingness to chat.
I’m saying that neutrally. I’ve never been super comfortable with public staff beatdowns *or* the lack of clarity around roles and rules. I also don’t think our mods get access to training or much support in joining communities outside of MF that support staff in developing community management, promotional, donor relations skills, etc.
That said, I think if as a community we want the mods to do X better we do have to either just ask and then let it go, or understand what’s stopping them. In my career as a manager, 95% of problems were systemic or a mismatch between skills and position, and like 5% were lack of caring.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:01 AM on October 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’m saying that neutrally. I’ve never been super comfortable with public staff beatdowns *or* the lack of clarity around roles and rules. I also don’t think our mods get access to training or much support in joining communities outside of MF that support staff in developing community management, promotional, donor relations skills, etc.
That said, I think if as a community we want the mods to do X better we do have to either just ask and then let it go, or understand what’s stopping them. In my career as a manager, 95% of problems were systemic or a mismatch between skills and position, and like 5% were lack of caring.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:01 AM on October 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
right now, I'd assert that isn't the sense that is garnered by a MeTa such as this and several previous. The feeling is that the mod team basically ignores the discussions held by the users.
"The" feeling? "The" sense that is or is not garnered? I reject your assertion, since I do not have that feeling, and I have not garnered any sense of reduction in care or interest or involvement. Everyone is welcome to their own subjective opinion, but since you phrased your statement as you did, here you go.
It is, in my opinion, absolutely fine for the staff to concentrate on other duties (many of which are not easily visible) and quietly listen to a non-urgent MetaTalk like this one for several days without frequently inserting "we are listening and considering what you are saying" reassurances. I already assume they are listening and considering threads on MetaTalk and do not require reassurances on that fact.
Wishing everyone well. I'm probably not going to be much present here for the next few days due to family stuff, to set expectations.
posted by brainwane at 7:21 AM on October 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
"The" feeling? "The" sense that is or is not garnered? I reject your assertion, since I do not have that feeling, and I have not garnered any sense of reduction in care or interest or involvement. Everyone is welcome to their own subjective opinion, but since you phrased your statement as you did, here you go.
It is, in my opinion, absolutely fine for the staff to concentrate on other duties (many of which are not easily visible) and quietly listen to a non-urgent MetaTalk like this one for several days without frequently inserting "we are listening and considering what you are saying" reassurances. I already assume they are listening and considering threads on MetaTalk and do not require reassurances on that fact.
Wishing everyone well. I'm probably not going to be much present here for the next few days due to family stuff, to set expectations.
posted by brainwane at 7:21 AM on October 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
I'm also not seeing a problem. The MetaFilter business as a whole is undergoing a transition. Mods are dealing with I/P in addition to the usual workload. Nothing technical is on fire here; this is a proposal to change something we've dealt with for decades. Personally I'd like to see the code base wind up on github if we go full non-profit so volunteers can maybe contribute little patches like this. But I don't see that happening for a good long while. It's a good idea to toss on the good idea pile.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:50 AM on October 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:50 AM on October 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
For a question like this, even in a normal organization, it would take time - to see if the mods agree this is a good change, get in touch with frimble to scope it, prioritize it against things, and get back to everyone.
Just wanted to say about this - I think that's true for some pony requests, but not all. This one is, or should be, just a giant freebie as far as bureaucracy and development effort and mod-communication-bang-for-the-buck go. Almost zero effort, with returns like increasing posting and demonstrating community involvement - and showing that Metafilter's not 100% the organization that takes 3 years (and still counting) to change one tiny bit of html because it doesn't know how to scope and prioritize.
This one's a giant low-effort ground-level-hanging fruit just waiting for the mods* to pick it.
* Or loup, or admin, or something - I don't even know what the decision process is here anymore, which is also a problem. Please, mods, or somebody: spell out the decision process, and who owns responsibility for these things.
posted by trig at 9:33 AM on October 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just wanted to say about this - I think that's true for some pony requests, but not all. This one is, or should be, just a giant freebie as far as bureaucracy and development effort and mod-communication-bang-for-the-buck go. Almost zero effort, with returns like increasing posting and demonstrating community involvement - and showing that Metafilter's not 100% the organization that takes 3 years (and still counting) to change one tiny bit of html because it doesn't know how to scope and prioritize.
This one's a giant low-effort ground-level-hanging fruit just waiting for the mods* to pick it.
* Or loup, or admin, or something - I don't even know what the decision process is here anymore, which is also a problem. Please, mods, or somebody: spell out the decision process, and who owns responsibility for these things.
posted by trig at 9:33 AM on October 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
We already know a lot about the organization. The five mods are not sitting around in a room together. It's clear from previous Metatalks that there is one mod on duty at a time, if that. It should also be obvious that individual mods can neither set policy nor change the code base. One mod already responded that management had to decide, and note that jessamyn is busy for the weekend.
I worked as a dev for decades; nothing is ever no-cost. The Mefi dev is working on a code base they didn't develop. Maybe the fix is easy (change some constant from 24 to 12), but you have to locate the file and the bit of code in question. Maybe it's not-- multiple files reference it, or it's done in some weird way. (God help us if everything in Mefi hinges on one huge SQL query, which was pretty much the case in one code base I worked on.) Guideline and FAQs have to be updated. And time frimble spends investigating the issue is time they're not spending on the ten things other people have demanded.
More communication is always good! I hope we get that management response soon. But try to make less assumptions about how everything should happen immediately.
posted by zompist at 2:21 PM on October 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
I worked as a dev for decades; nothing is ever no-cost. The Mefi dev is working on a code base they didn't develop. Maybe the fix is easy (change some constant from 24 to 12), but you have to locate the file and the bit of code in question. Maybe it's not-- multiple files reference it, or it's done in some weird way. (God help us if everything in Mefi hinges on one huge SQL query, which was pretty much the case in one code base I worked on.) Guideline and FAQs have to be updated. And time frimble spends investigating the issue is time they're not spending on the ten things other people have demanded.
More communication is always good! I hope we get that management response soon. But try to make less assumptions about how everything should happen immediately.
posted by zompist at 2:21 PM on October 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
I guess my question is, when we say that it's management that makes the decisions, who is that exactly. Because my impression, maybe wrong, has been that Jessamyn is not here to do this level of management. So does that make loup the de facto head of the site as far as this kind of decision and project management go? Or are decisions based on mod discussion? Or discussions between loup and jessamyn? Or something else? I've asked this before and if there was a clear answer from a staff member, I missed it.
I worked as a dev for decades; nothing is ever no-cost. The Mefi dev is working on a code base they didn't develop. Maybe the fix is easy (change some constant from 24 to 12), but you have to locate the file and the bit of code in question. Maybe it's not-- multiple files reference it, or it's done in some weird way. (God help us if everything in Mefi hinges on one huge SQL query, which was pretty much the case in one code base I worked on.) Guideline and FAQs have to be updated. And time frimble spends investigating the issue is time they're not spending on the ten things other people have demanded.
I said low-effort, not zero cost, and yeah maybe code change plus doc change is something that would take more than an hour total to do - but it only takes a few minutes to come here and say that. My point though is that when site development has been at a near-halt for so many years, and the majority of pony requests are purely hypothetical because there's no way they'll be implemented under the current setup - when conditions are such, relatively easy requests like this are a gift to the staff, and I wish they'd take it and use it.
And I know frimble inherited this code, but it's been theirs for coming on 8 years.
posted by trig at 2:55 PM on October 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I worked as a dev for decades; nothing is ever no-cost. The Mefi dev is working on a code base they didn't develop. Maybe the fix is easy (change some constant from 24 to 12), but you have to locate the file and the bit of code in question. Maybe it's not-- multiple files reference it, or it's done in some weird way. (God help us if everything in Mefi hinges on one huge SQL query, which was pretty much the case in one code base I worked on.) Guideline and FAQs have to be updated. And time frimble spends investigating the issue is time they're not spending on the ten things other people have demanded.
I said low-effort, not zero cost, and yeah maybe code change plus doc change is something that would take more than an hour total to do - but it only takes a few minutes to come here and say that. My point though is that when site development has been at a near-halt for so many years, and the majority of pony requests are purely hypothetical because there's no way they'll be implemented under the current setup - when conditions are such, relatively easy requests like this are a gift to the staff, and I wish they'd take it and use it.
And I know frimble inherited this code, but it's been theirs for coming on 8 years.
posted by trig at 2:55 PM on October 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’m hoping the change is gradual (20-23 hours) to help people who post 2+ days in a row with the timing.
posted by michaelh at 3:24 PM on October 14, 2023
posted by michaelh at 3:24 PM on October 14, 2023
The thing is, as a dev, you never just agree with your manager that a change is easy and fast without looking at the code. I share your intuition that this should be on the easier side, but you don't know till you look. And something like this, my experience is that investigating is is 90% of the work: to find out where and how that time delay is implemented is to know how to change it. (Also, as a dev, there's fixing something, and then there's fixing it right, so next time Metatalk asks for the time period to change, it is easy.)
(Hopefully the non-profit thing will make it far easier to share tasks like this, but obviously we're not there yet.)
posted by zompist at 3:27 PM on October 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
(Hopefully the non-profit thing will make it far easier to share tasks like this, but obviously we're not there yet.)
posted by zompist at 3:27 PM on October 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah
I think frimble doesn't read metatalk, so hopefully we'll have a staff comment soon saying they've passed this on to frimble for evaluation. And an update not long after that.
Also, as a dev, there's fixing something, and then there's fixing it right, so next time Metatalk asks for the time period to change, it is easy.
My heart is 100% with you, but then you get things like changing the flag text taking who even knows how many years because the ugly, hacky route of carefully doing a search/replace on several dozen files would have taken... a few tedious hours, probably. In reality, I think sometimes the "right" way is to prioritize according to the resources you've got, not according to what would be ideal, or doable with abundant dev time.
posted by trig at 6:09 PM on October 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think frimble doesn't read metatalk, so hopefully we'll have a staff comment soon saying they've passed this on to frimble for evaluation. And an update not long after that.
Also, as a dev, there's fixing something, and then there's fixing it right, so next time Metatalk asks for the time period to change, it is easy.
My heart is 100% with you, but then you get things like changing the flag text taking who even knows how many years because the ugly, hacky route of carefully doing a search/replace on several dozen files would have taken... a few tedious hours, probably. In reality, I think sometimes the "right" way is to prioritize according to the resources you've got, not according to what would be ideal, or doable with abundant dev time.
posted by trig at 6:09 PM on October 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
On some level, in a dream world that doesn't coincide with the one we live in, doing a revision of MetaFilter the "right way" would involve looking at the output of the website that everyone currently enjoys and completely re-engineering the backend into a modern format, out of the frankenstein Wordpress current incarnation that is somehow miraculously still stable enough to drive everything going on here.
Maybe in the dream world in which the source code is released for community support we could begin to see things iterate toward something more modern. As it stands, we do have to understand we're conversing on a platform created and maintained largely by a single person for over a decade and then existing without any real serious updates except the Modern Theme.
While not wanting in any way to equate the community here with what has been going on over there, apparently there were things that Musk was demanding as changes to Twitter that it turned out had been hard coded into the website something like 40,000 times. I don't know anything about how MetaFilter is built, but it isn't unreasonable to think there are little bits and nuggets and nips and tucks of similar build happening here.
posted by hippybear at 6:42 PM on October 14, 2023
Maybe in the dream world in which the source code is released for community support we could begin to see things iterate toward something more modern. As it stands, we do have to understand we're conversing on a platform created and maintained largely by a single person for over a decade and then existing without any real serious updates except the Modern Theme.
While not wanting in any way to equate the community here with what has been going on over there, apparently there were things that Musk was demanding as changes to Twitter that it turned out had been hard coded into the website something like 40,000 times. I don't know anything about how MetaFilter is built, but it isn't unreasonable to think there are little bits and nuggets and nips and tucks of similar build happening here.
posted by hippybear at 6:42 PM on October 14, 2023
My heart is 100% with you, but then you get things like changing the flag text taking who even knows how many years because the ugly, hacky route of carefully doing a search/replace on several dozen files would have taken... a few tedious hours, probably. In reality, I think sometimes the "right" way is to prioritize according to the resources you've got, not according to what would be ideal, or doable with abundant dev time.
every now and then i remember exactly how long not quite managing to change a '!' to a 'flag comment' has taken and i laugh a rich, hearty laugh, i invite other metatalk friends to do the same.
posted by Sebmojo at 1:02 AM on October 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
every now and then i remember exactly how long not quite managing to change a '!' to a 'flag comment' has taken and i laugh a rich, hearty laugh, i invite other metatalk friends to do the same.
posted by Sebmojo at 1:02 AM on October 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
No, thank you. I don't see how focusing on that, or laughing about it, would make my MeFi experience any better.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:31 AM on October 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:31 AM on October 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is 98 hours of waiting for a response to another moderator's request enough? Is that impatient? Come on. "We usually review these things on the first of the month" is an acceptable answer! "No" is an acceptable answer. Something, proof of life. Hold up today's newspaper or something.
posted by bowbeacon at 9:11 AM on October 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 9:11 AM on October 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hold up today's newspaper or something
posted by clavdivs at 2:27 PM on October 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 2:27 PM on October 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I guess it feels like, in the past, there'd be conversation with the moderation team and site owners [admittedly those had overlapped in the past] in threads such as these, a back and forth about how people were feeling about things, how things had been handled with explanations, and some amount of actual community engagement with the people who have the backend of this website within their grasp and the people who do most of the actual generation of what makes this website valuable.
This was in an era when MetaTalk didn't have a queue and people would regularly call mods out for their decisions on all kinds of matters. It was contentious, but the mod team actually interacted with people back then.
I don't understand why that isn't happening anymore.
Is the entire community waiting for there to be some kind of MetaFilter Board Meeting to discuss this and hand down a decision? Because that's not how communities work. Are the mods having lengthy discussions about this behind the scenes but unwilling to talk to us in this discussion thread? If that is the case, then we need to talk about that. If that is not the case, then we need to talk about their silence.
Oh right, we're trying to talk about that but unless they contribute here, we're just pissing in the wind.
posted by hippybear at 2:46 PM on October 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
This was in an era when MetaTalk didn't have a queue and people would regularly call mods out for their decisions on all kinds of matters. It was contentious, but the mod team actually interacted with people back then.
I don't understand why that isn't happening anymore.
Is the entire community waiting for there to be some kind of MetaFilter Board Meeting to discuss this and hand down a decision? Because that's not how communities work. Are the mods having lengthy discussions about this behind the scenes but unwilling to talk to us in this discussion thread? If that is the case, then we need to talk about that. If that is not the case, then we need to talk about their silence.
Oh right, we're trying to talk about that but unless they contribute here, we're just pissing in the wind.
posted by hippybear at 2:46 PM on October 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
Same old song
Just a drop of water in an endless sea
All we do
Crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see
posted by clavdivs at 3:13 PM on October 16, 2023
Just a drop of water in an endless sea
All we do
Crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see
posted by clavdivs at 3:13 PM on October 16, 2023
... the mod team actually interacted with people back then.
I don't understand why that isn't happening anymore.
I've always been a big supporter of the MeFi team, but I'm also a bit frustrated with the lower levels of interaction here, particularly given the people that hang out in MetaTalk are those most invested in the community. I get that sometimes staff speaking up here can lead to them being complained at and that's a shame, but part of running a community should be interacting at this level at least to acknowledge suggestions and give some indication that this is a potential yes/no/maybe.
posted by dg at 5:41 PM on October 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't understand why that isn't happening anymore.
I've always been a big supporter of the MeFi team, but I'm also a bit frustrated with the lower levels of interaction here, particularly given the people that hang out in MetaTalk are those most invested in the community. I get that sometimes staff speaking up here can lead to them being complained at and that's a shame, but part of running a community should be interacting at this level at least to acknowledge suggestions and give some indication that this is a potential yes/no/maybe.
posted by dg at 5:41 PM on October 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Given the possibility that significant changes might be made to moderation once the non-profit structure is in place, I'm surprised that current mods aren't engaging in some sort of charm offensive to defend the status quo. An increased effort towards being basically responsive in Meta threads seems like a relatively simple way to build support.
posted by otsebyatina at 7:10 PM on October 16, 2023
posted by otsebyatina at 7:10 PM on October 16, 2023
I have long suspected that the mods are, at this point, in a state of perpetual burnout. Even if the site is somehow a bit less contentious than it had been in the past, I doubt their capacity to deal with cranky commenters is anywhere near where it used to be. The world since 2016 can’t be rolled back, after all.
Anything not explicitly rule-violating can be deferred, because it’s not actively on fire. If there are no fires at any given moment, that’s an opportunity for rest, not to go looking for more work.
I do hope that jessamyn and loup find a chance to respond to this thread at some point, but I can’t fault other mods for setting aside such a relatively low-stakes thread for management.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 7:26 PM on October 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
Anything not explicitly rule-violating can be deferred, because it’s not actively on fire. If there are no fires at any given moment, that’s an opportunity for rest, not to go looking for more work.
I do hope that jessamyn and loup find a chance to respond to this thread at some point, but I can’t fault other mods for setting aside such a relatively low-stakes thread for management.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 7:26 PM on October 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm just operating on the assumption that we're in the midst of an unannounced experiment in self-governance. The utopia we demanded is now mandatory.
but seriously, this thread has been intriguing to me specifically because there has been so little mod (or other official) involvement. We're hashing out what seems to me a pretty solid idea with nobody in the discussion having any more standing than anybody else. And so far, as far as I can see, no injuries -- not to mention, lots of good discussion.
posted by philip-random at 9:38 PM on October 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
but seriously, this thread has been intriguing to me specifically because there has been so little mod (or other official) involvement. We're hashing out what seems to me a pretty solid idea with nobody in the discussion having any more standing than anybody else. And so far, as far as I can see, no injuries -- not to mention, lots of good discussion.
posted by philip-random at 9:38 PM on October 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Gently, I wish people wouldn't throw "burnout" around so constantly and casually, working in the medical field for a minute will show anyone what real burnout looks like.
posted by Jarcat at 9:20 AM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 9:20 AM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
If there are no fires at any given moment, that’s an opportunity for rest, not to go looking for more work.
Well sure, except that they're drawing paychecks and asking for donations. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that mods will engage with the site in the absence of fires when they are being paid to do that exact thing.
posted by donnagirl at 9:55 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well sure, except that they're drawing paychecks and asking for donations. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that mods will engage with the site in the absence of fires when they are being paid to do that exact thing.
posted by donnagirl at 9:55 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
It is impossible to do "community governance" via MetaTalk, if someone's under the illusion that that's happening or should be happening. For one thing, the lack of engagement from people with knowledge about the code base and funding and developer time and such means that the discussion is missing vital pieces of information necessary to make a decision. Additionally, big unmoderated discussions aren't going to magically coalesce into agreement or consensus; they need active facilitation with someone helping identify areas of consensus, areas of continued disagreement, and missing information. There need to be some decision-making rules/structures so that everyone's aware of what's needed to come to a final decision.
Just having an open MetaTalk thread isn't creating community governance.
posted by lapis at 10:07 AM on October 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Just having an open MetaTalk thread isn't creating community governance.
posted by lapis at 10:07 AM on October 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
If anyone really wants jessamyn/et al input they could use the contact form to request it.
posted by curious nu at 10:25 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by curious nu at 10:25 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's not that anyone wants Jessamyn's input. They want the staff to appear to give a shit.
posted by bowbeacon at 10:26 AM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 10:26 AM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
If I had to read the silence (which is hard), I would guess that the big picture questions are with Jessamyn and perhaps Loup, those two have limited time/bandwidth to follow along and interject comments the way that Matt or Cortex did - and they did not plan on hands-on modding in that way, and the day-to-day mods do not have answers to the questions being posed and therefore nothing helpful to contribute. Jessamyn mentioned last week in a different MeTa thread that she hoped to post an update about the big picture legal/business issues early this week, so I expect that is on the way and is taking priority over smaller comment interjections. I think all of that is understandable given where things sit, but also understandably frustrating to users who are used to the older "active presence" style of modding that happened in MeTa discussions. I think it would be good for site leadership to give some express expectations about what mod participation will look like in MeTa while we are in this transition period, to hopefully reduce some of the frustration. A lot of it is simply a "what is going on" thing that can be addressed with some transparency.
posted by Mid at 10:27 AM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Mid at 10:27 AM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Two weeks ago, someone posted a thread that literally asked for ways to give the site money via selling things on the Mefi Mall.
Some of these suggestions were obviously great, some were not liked by the 6 comments on the thread, some of them were probably hard to implement and wouldn't be gotten to this year. But all of them were attempts by an excited user to PAY CASH MONEY to Metafilter. And not a single staff member or mod posted in the thread to react in any way at all. Not to say yes, not to say no, not to say maybe, not to say "I have read your suggestion and have no power to implement it, but I like and/or hate these specific ideas." Just absolute crickets.
posted by bowbeacon at 10:42 AM on October 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Some of these suggestions were obviously great, some were not liked by the 6 comments on the thread, some of them were probably hard to implement and wouldn't be gotten to this year. But all of them were attempts by an excited user to PAY CASH MONEY to Metafilter. And not a single staff member or mod posted in the thread to react in any way at all. Not to say yes, not to say no, not to say maybe, not to say "I have read your suggestion and have no power to implement it, but I like and/or hate these specific ideas." Just absolute crickets.
posted by bowbeacon at 10:42 AM on October 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's just that the crickets issue has been going on for years - like, since before the pandemic, maybe since the 2016 election cycle? And at first I was like okay, things are crazy, there's a huge workload, there's the world on fire, there's the pandemic, there's cortex having trouble keeping up, understandable, okay... I specifically did not post a few ponies I had because I knew development time and budget was limited, and so on.
But now on the one hand we're hearing that the site is "healthy" financially, and on the other hand it's all "we don't have the resources to interact in even the easiest metatalk threads, or to implement anything, or even to run a fundraiser with more than minimal effort". I don't think that's healthy, and I think it's a real problem that the site doesn't seem to think it's a problem.
I guess it feels like, in the past, there'd be conversation with the moderation team and site owners [admittedly those had overlapped in the past] in threads such as these
That was for bigger issues... for tiny stuff like this, pb would just pop in a few hours later and say "done, I changed the limit from 24 to 16, we'll see how it goes" or whatever. I assume having shot Matt a quick question and gotten a quick answer, or vice versa. And that felt like a site that was impressive in how together it was.
posted by trig at 11:37 AM on October 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
But now on the one hand we're hearing that the site is "healthy" financially, and on the other hand it's all "we don't have the resources to interact in even the easiest metatalk threads, or to implement anything, or even to run a fundraiser with more than minimal effort". I don't think that's healthy, and I think it's a real problem that the site doesn't seem to think it's a problem.
I guess it feels like, in the past, there'd be conversation with the moderation team and site owners [admittedly those had overlapped in the past] in threads such as these
That was for bigger issues... for tiny stuff like this, pb would just pop in a few hours later and say "done, I changed the limit from 24 to 16, we'll see how it goes" or whatever. I assume having shot Matt a quick question and gotten a quick answer, or vice versa. And that felt like a site that was impressive in how together it was.
posted by trig at 11:37 AM on October 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
pb would just pop in a few hours later and say "done, I changed the limit from 24 to 16, we'll see how it goes
this is my initial thought and it's quite accurate. but I think for this issue going 24 hours to 12 would have been something that matt would have thought through then have pb go to the mines! he might have popped in and given a initial time estimate for the code change and other stuff like that I mean I don't know anything but I think I think about 6 hours. that includes reading this thread.
I do understand the patience though. I use a personal analogy being 5 years old and going to the store with grandmother. I'd be very impatient....to go to the but no, follow Grandma and help her fetch items and act it and then you get to go in the toy section whilst Grandma's checking out you know time efficiency thing. one time I decided to switch it up and try heft 5 lbs. of potatoes on my shoulder, the old running start. next thing you know there's an announcement over the PA: "attention Farmer Jack customers... ...kids trying to help, Stan...
...sale on eggs, 19¢ a dozen."
posted by clavdivs at 12:13 PM on October 17, 2023
this is my initial thought and it's quite accurate. but I think for this issue going 24 hours to 12 would have been something that matt would have thought through then have pb go to the mines! he might have popped in and given a initial time estimate for the code change and other stuff like that I mean I don't know anything but I think I think about 6 hours. that includes reading this thread.
I do understand the patience though. I use a personal analogy being 5 years old and going to the store with grandmother. I'd be very impatient....to go to the but no, follow Grandma and help her fetch items and act it and then you get to go in the toy section whilst Grandma's checking out you know time efficiency thing. one time I decided to switch it up and try heft 5 lbs. of potatoes on my shoulder, the old running start. next thing you know there's an announcement over the PA: "attention Farmer Jack customers... ...kids trying to help, Stan...
...sale on eggs, 19¢ a dozen."
posted by clavdivs at 12:13 PM on October 17, 2023
the five year old at the grocery store metaphor only really works if the 5 yo is also financially supporting grandma, and is an adult
posted by Sebmojo at 1:37 PM on October 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 1:37 PM on October 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
and in so many words:
– We’ll reduce the waiting time for new posts on the blue from 1 day to 12 hours, based on the feedback we have received in the current Meta Thread, I’ll confirm once this change goes live.
posted by philip-random at 3:55 PM on October 18, 2023
– We’ll reduce the waiting time for new posts on the blue from 1 day to 12 hours, based on the feedback we have received in the current Meta Thread, I’ll confirm once this change goes live.
posted by philip-random at 3:55 PM on October 18, 2023
Already chimed in on the update thread, but thanks again, loup. <3
posted by Rhaomi at 8:21 PM on October 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Rhaomi at 8:21 PM on October 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted to MetaFilter by Rhaomi at 1:33 PM on October 24, 2023
posted to MetaFilter by Rhaomi at 10:00 AM on October 25, 2023
It works! And with the timer turned down to 11 hours, to boot. Thanks for making this happen so quickly, y'all. (Only nitpick: the new post and FAQ page still say "24 hours", which could be confusing if people don't pay attention to the countdown -- though in fairness this change hasn't even been officially rolled out yet!)
posted by Rhaomi at 8:11 AM on October 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted to MetaFilter by Rhaomi at 10:00 AM on October 25, 2023
It works! And with the timer turned down to 11 hours, to boot. Thanks for making this happen so quickly, y'all. (Only nitpick: the new post and FAQ page still say "24 hours", which could be confusing if people don't pay attention to the countdown -- though in fairness this change hasn't even been officially rolled out yet!)
posted by Rhaomi at 8:11 AM on October 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
FAQ page has been updated.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:36 AM on October 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:36 AM on October 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by Think_Long at 10:59 AM on October 10, 2023 [9 favorites]