just trying to understand the distinction December 22, 2003 6:09 AM Subscribe
Since botching policy on a recent post (asking about why people smoke) and being promptly deleted, I'm left scratching my head about why this post went unquestioned. I'm not complaining, and I don't think the thread should be deleted, I'm just trying to understand the distinction so I don't get my own posts deleted again in the future.
Maybe Matt isn't around. Maybe he regretted deleting the smoking thread after all, and decided to go with a lighter touch. Maybe Matt is more interested in spitting than smoking, or thought that the spitting thread was less divisive than your smoking thread -- people are less likely to feel defensive against morally superior non-smoking idiots and start a flamewar.
In the end, though, I think you and scarabic just need to get over it.
posted by crunchland at 7:17 AM on December 22, 2003
In the end, though, I think you and scarabic just need to get over it.
posted by crunchland at 7:17 AM on December 22, 2003
It's probably due to the almost certainty that a "smoking" question is guaranteed to generate a flamefest -- regardless of the poster's intent. But people really don't debate the relative merits of secondhand spit with cahir-throwing ferocity.
posted by RavinDave at 7:27 AM on December 22, 2003
posted by RavinDave at 7:27 AM on December 22, 2003
Cahir throwing? Is that like the Highland games, but Irish?
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:32 AM on December 22, 2003
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:32 AM on December 22, 2003
Your question presupposes that there are guidelines. I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any yet. And if Matt's holiday season is going anything like mine, I think you shouldn't expect any until several weeks into the new year. Though I'd be surprised if any guidelines you'll see here could settle the issue at hand. Matt uses such a light touch on the steering wheel that sometimes his "guidelines" seem more like hints or vague clues.
Personally I have a bad feeling about many of the resent posts. It's just my opinion, but I worry that Ask MetaFilter is getting too much like a discussion forum. I think ideally there shouldn't be any discussion at all. The question should be structured such that comments can get right to the heart of the matter and provide a useful answer.
Less round table, more help desk.
Fewer quizzes, more quandaries.
Less opinion, more fact.
It's quickly becoming obvious that there aren't any dumb questions. I've been amazed at how some of the really annoying questions have been brought to life by great answers. But I think we're really pushing the limit of what types of questions are good for Ask MetaFilter. Maybe we have some linguists in the house who can break down these questions by category?
Personally (by which I mean I don't know why anyone should care but I'm going to tell you anyway) I find "what color" type questions to be inappropriate. "What is your favorite Simpsons color?" "What color should I paint my bedroom?" "Why do people where blue colored pants?" Etc.
I don't think these questions need to be reworded, I think they need to be discouraged. They invite chat and evade resolution.
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:13 AM on December 22, 2003
Personally I have a bad feeling about many of the resent posts. It's just my opinion, but I worry that Ask MetaFilter is getting too much like a discussion forum. I think ideally there shouldn't be any discussion at all. The question should be structured such that comments can get right to the heart of the matter and provide a useful answer.
Less round table, more help desk.
Fewer quizzes, more quandaries.
Less opinion, more fact.
It's quickly becoming obvious that there aren't any dumb questions. I've been amazed at how some of the really annoying questions have been brought to life by great answers. But I think we're really pushing the limit of what types of questions are good for Ask MetaFilter. Maybe we have some linguists in the house who can break down these questions by category?
Personally (by which I mean I don't know why anyone should care but I'm going to tell you anyway) I find "what color" type questions to be inappropriate. "What is your favorite Simpsons color?" "What color should I paint my bedroom?" "Why do people where blue colored pants?" Etc.
I don't think these questions need to be reworded, I think they need to be discouraged. They invite chat and evade resolution.
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:13 AM on December 22, 2003
And here's a great example.
I'm sure the poster is genuinely interested in the answer, and many other users will be as well. But the question invites unqualified opinion, rhetoric, wisecracks, and heated debate. I'm hoping that this sort of thing will fall outside the guidelines. You could write a book on that question. In fact you could write hundreds of books and still not "answer" the question.
Or maybe we can go the other way. Maybe we can allow questions like this, but ban answers that aren't direct and factual.
So rather than responding that laws based on moral judgements are problematic, give an outline of how the current laws developed in a cultural and historical context. Rather than say that there is a double standard, explain social pressures that drive laws regarding vice.
In other words, as was described very well in my farting call out, insist on quality answers rather than quality questions.
Or, more likely, a balance between those. But I'm not smart enough to expound on what that might be.
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:32 AM on December 22, 2003
I'm sure the poster is genuinely interested in the answer, and many other users will be as well. But the question invites unqualified opinion, rhetoric, wisecracks, and heated debate. I'm hoping that this sort of thing will fall outside the guidelines. You could write a book on that question. In fact you could write hundreds of books and still not "answer" the question.
Or maybe we can go the other way. Maybe we can allow questions like this, but ban answers that aren't direct and factual.
So rather than responding that laws based on moral judgements are problematic, give an outline of how the current laws developed in a cultural and historical context. Rather than say that there is a double standard, explain social pressures that drive laws regarding vice.
In other words, as was described very well in my farting call out, insist on quality answers rather than quality questions.
Or, more likely, a balance between those. But I'm not smart enough to expound on what that might be.
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:32 AM on December 22, 2003
Reading throught recent questions, I wonder just what knowledge the asker is trying to elicit and to what use s/he will put it.
posted by mischief at 9:12 AM on December 22, 2003
posted by mischief at 9:12 AM on December 22, 2003
ossiubke, let me ask you an honest question: are you trying to fuck with ask metafilter? Why are you asking so many rhetorical questions? Do you want me to make a rule banning them or do you think taking straw polls and asking people what they think their favorite color is a good use of the space?
People have already asked that a limit be put in place or that people limit their use to a question a week, but you're like a little kid pushing my buttons and feeling out the boundaries posting several questions a day, which I'm going to have to fix to limit to one a week now. I thought the spit one was marginally less controversial than a smoking thread, but damn if many of today's questions are pretty much useless.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:00 AM on December 22, 2003
People have already asked that a limit be put in place or that people limit their use to a question a week, but you're like a little kid pushing my buttons and feeling out the boundaries posting several questions a day, which I'm going to have to fix to limit to one a week now. I thought the spit one was marginally less controversial than a smoking thread, but damn if many of today's questions are pretty much useless.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:00 AM on December 22, 2003
maybe an idea... Could the poster select an "answer accepted" for the answer they feel helped them? This might encourage the 'good answer' while still allowing the 'there are no silly questions'.
(not exactly on topic here, but not worth another thread either.)
posted by dabitch at 10:10 AM on December 22, 2003
(not exactly on topic here, but not worth another thread either.)
posted by dabitch at 10:10 AM on December 22, 2003
Whoa, whoa, whoa, there.
Matt, I definitely haven't been trying to screw around with the site. I like AskMe. I think it's a great idea, and I've hoped for a long time that you'd put something like this together.
I'm not trying to troll the site. I'm interested by the idea of being able to ask questions that I've sought answers for, and so I've done so. Maybe I'm phrasing my questions wrong, or i'm completely missing the "ideal AskMe" question, but I didn't realize I was going to make you head explode.
The guidelines on the site basically say "don't be an ass," and I've been trying to abide by that. I haven't intentionally tried to post controversial threads, and I haven't intentionally tried to post "humorous" or "worthless" threads.
I'm probably just phrasing things really, really poorly. When I asked what quantities people associated with certain numeric terms, for example, I wasn't just bored and trying to pass some time. I was trying to find an answer to a specific question that had been bugging me, but I could see my phrasing would be a red flag to someone in "Damn that Oissubke, always posting crap questions" mode.
I truly and sincerely am not trying to incite debates, flamewars, trolling, etc., and if I've given that impression, I'll check myself before I wreck myself.
posted by oissubke at 10:28 AM on December 22, 2003
Matt, I definitely haven't been trying to screw around with the site. I like AskMe. I think it's a great idea, and I've hoped for a long time that you'd put something like this together.
I'm not trying to troll the site. I'm interested by the idea of being able to ask questions that I've sought answers for, and so I've done so. Maybe I'm phrasing my questions wrong, or i'm completely missing the "ideal AskMe" question, but I didn't realize I was going to make you head explode.
The guidelines on the site basically say "don't be an ass," and I've been trying to abide by that. I haven't intentionally tried to post controversial threads, and I haven't intentionally tried to post "humorous" or "worthless" threads.
I'm probably just phrasing things really, really poorly. When I asked what quantities people associated with certain numeric terms, for example, I wasn't just bored and trying to pass some time. I was trying to find an answer to a specific question that had been bugging me, but I could see my phrasing would be a red flag to someone in "Damn that Oissubke, always posting crap questions" mode.
I truly and sincerely am not trying to incite debates, flamewars, trolling, etc., and if I've given that impression, I'll check myself before I wreck myself.
posted by oissubke at 10:28 AM on December 22, 2003
The battle for the soul of AsMeFi is raging, and the question is how useful it is going to be?
I have been wishing that every question would be posted with the hope that an expert on the subject exists within our ranks. Barring that, that our smart lay people could point the way.
"Don't you hate it when you lock your skis in the cow?"
Yes. No. Is there any way to be wrong? If the goal is to learn about yourself or other people, you are not so much asking a question as you are baiting a hook for conversation.
posted by thirteen at 10:40 AM on December 22, 2003
I have been wishing that every question would be posted with the hope that an expert on the subject exists within our ranks. Barring that, that our smart lay people could point the way.
"Don't you hate it when you lock your skis in the cow?"
Yes. No. Is there any way to be wrong? If the goal is to learn about yourself or other people, you are not so much asking a question as you are baiting a hook for conversation.
posted by thirteen at 10:40 AM on December 22, 2003
"....... being able to ask questions that I've sought answers for......"
I think the lesson here is that some people have really weird questions. One person's worthless pap is another's burning dilemma.
Having thought about this more than is reasonable, I'm starting to think that the main stumbling block to AskMe's success may be getting an answer to what it is people are suppose to be asking. If you are in a room full of behavior psychologists the spitting question would be perfectly natural, and would probably generate some great answers.
While asking this question in a room full of people who can't let go of "pancake" jokes may be totally pointless.
Personally I love the extremely narrow computer and programming questions. But I'll bet many people will find these to be a total waste of space. And similarly I think questions about why people spit, or what the meaning of the word "several" is, are totally worthless. But apparently some people honestly hunger to have the answer.
I think it's about context. We're asking questions of specific interest on a general interest forum.
posted by y6y6y6 at 10:45 AM on December 22, 2003
I think the lesson here is that some people have really weird questions. One person's worthless pap is another's burning dilemma.
Having thought about this more than is reasonable, I'm starting to think that the main stumbling block to AskMe's success may be getting an answer to what it is people are suppose to be asking. If you are in a room full of behavior psychologists the spitting question would be perfectly natural, and would probably generate some great answers.
While asking this question in a room full of people who can't let go of "pancake" jokes may be totally pointless.
Personally I love the extremely narrow computer and programming questions. But I'll bet many people will find these to be a total waste of space. And similarly I think questions about why people spit, or what the meaning of the word "several" is, are totally worthless. But apparently some people honestly hunger to have the answer.
I think it's about context. We're asking questions of specific interest on a general interest forum.
posted by y6y6y6 at 10:45 AM on December 22, 2003
What appealed to me about the AskMe concept was that we'd finally have the opportunity to tap into the community outside of the context of a link to a flash game, an editorial about how Bush sucks, etc. There was great potential for education, entertainment, and community-building there.
It seems like it quickly crystalized into an "You can ask one question a week about a specific, resolvable, personal issue that you're having, as long as it's not controversial" community, and I missed it since I generally don't spend much time on MeTa. I was under the impression that AskMe was still new and forming, and that questions within the guidelines on the posting page were still basically acceptable.
Now I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing. I know the "If you don't like it you can go start your own site" principle applies here, and I'm not going to sob about it.
But please understand that my "trolling" was entirely unintentional, the result of me posting according to what I had thought was acceptable and reasonable, while not noticing that guidelines to the contrary were developed and "understood" by others. I didn't realize that AskMe had been formalized so quickly.
I really do apologize for being a raspberry seed in Matt's wisdom tooth. It wasn't my intention, and now that I have a better understanding of how AskMe is supposed to work, I'll avoid posting my "rhetorical" questions.
posted by oissubke at 10:49 AM on December 22, 2003
It seems like it quickly crystalized into an "You can ask one question a week about a specific, resolvable, personal issue that you're having, as long as it's not controversial" community, and I missed it since I generally don't spend much time on MeTa. I was under the impression that AskMe was still new and forming, and that questions within the guidelines on the posting page were still basically acceptable.
Now I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing. I know the "If you don't like it you can go start your own site" principle applies here, and I'm not going to sob about it.
But please understand that my "trolling" was entirely unintentional, the result of me posting according to what I had thought was acceptable and reasonable, while not noticing that guidelines to the contrary were developed and "understood" by others. I didn't realize that AskMe had been formalized so quickly.
I really do apologize for being a raspberry seed in Matt's wisdom tooth. It wasn't my intention, and now that I have a better understanding of how AskMe is supposed to work, I'll avoid posting my "rhetorical" questions.
posted by oissubke at 10:49 AM on December 22, 2003
oissubke, I guess I can't see why it is important to ask "what do people mean by a few, many, most, etc how many is that?"
There are no guidelines because I haven't formed them yet, but we're seeing what works and doesn't right now.
What appealed to me about the AskMe concept was that we'd finally have the opportunity to tap into the community outside of the context of a link to a flash game, an editorial about how Bush sucks, etc. There was great potential for education, entertainment, and community-building there.
And that's exactly how I see it as well and what I hoped to accomplish by setting it up.
It seems like it quickly crystalized into an "You can ask one question a week about a specific, resolvable, personal issue that you're having, as long as it's not controversial" community
I think that's a cynical, narrow view. Go through the ask metafilter archives and look at a couple dozen questions and answers. I see that the stuff that works seems to have some element of helping a user solve a problem or understand something they didn't before they asked. There was a goal, they admitted they needed help, then others jumped in.
Some of the things I've deleted have been what I consider dumb questions. Questions that don't give much context and often ask what is better treated as a rhetorical question to pose to your friends or family.
Honestly, I see nothing to gain from a question of "what is your favorite color?" Do you?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:04 AM on December 22, 2003
There are no guidelines because I haven't formed them yet, but we're seeing what works and doesn't right now.
What appealed to me about the AskMe concept was that we'd finally have the opportunity to tap into the community outside of the context of a link to a flash game, an editorial about how Bush sucks, etc. There was great potential for education, entertainment, and community-building there.
And that's exactly how I see it as well and what I hoped to accomplish by setting it up.
It seems like it quickly crystalized into an "You can ask one question a week about a specific, resolvable, personal issue that you're having, as long as it's not controversial" community
I think that's a cynical, narrow view. Go through the ask metafilter archives and look at a couple dozen questions and answers. I see that the stuff that works seems to have some element of helping a user solve a problem or understand something they didn't before they asked. There was a goal, they admitted they needed help, then others jumped in.
Some of the things I've deleted have been what I consider dumb questions. Questions that don't give much context and often ask what is better treated as a rhetorical question to pose to your friends or family.
Honestly, I see nothing to gain from a question of "what is your favorite color?" Do you?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:04 AM on December 22, 2003
Honestly, I see nothing to gain from a question of "what is your favorite color?" Do you?
No, I don't. That's why I haven't asked it.
When I asked what different numeric quantities people associated with certain numbers, I got several responses (none of which seemed to be trolls), including some interesting insights about how "couple" can mean more than two to some people, etc. I was quite pleased with the answers people were giving, and was intrigued by the observations about discrepancies there were coming up. I was enjoying it. Others were enjoying it. Nobody was calling each other names. Nobody mentioned pancakes. Nobody brought up Bush. It was a good thread.
There have been various mentions on MeTa about what "works" on AskMe. To myself and several others, that thread "worked." It was pleasant, vaguely insightful, interesting those those who were interested, brief enough to be easily skipped by those who weren't interested, and perhaps most importantly, was answering my question. To me, that seems like a reasonable thread. I wouldn't see that as me effing with the site.
I guess I'm not sure what guidelines I'm supposed to be shooting for on a thread that "works."
My thread about smoking for example, at least what I saw of it before it disappeared, was informative, diplomatic, and insightful. It wasn't a trollfest. It wasn't a flamewar. It was exactly what I had hoped it would be, which was smokers talking about why they smoke, which helped me to understand something I had never understood before. People were interested. People were engaged. Learning took place in that thread.
Granted, the answers to my questions weren't "Oissubke, you've got plug the blue cable into the purple receptacle" or "Oissubke, connecting the hot water band to the johnson rod should fix your problem," but I don't think that intrinsically means that the threads didn't "work." Overall, I'd say that the sum of the threads you've deleted here probably had less noise, trolling, flaming, etc., than happens in any given fifteen minutes on the blue.
I wholeheartedly agree that specific problem solving posts seem to work quite nicely, but I don't think that AskMe must therefore be restricted to problem solving posts. I think there's room for a bit of freedom. I think there's room for the occasional straw poll.
There's a robust community here, previously restricted solely to posting and commenting on links (MeFi), or posting and commenting on posting and commenting on links (MeTa). It's been a brilliant foundation for creating and building a community, but now that community might occasionally want to ask for opinions, experiences, etc., in addition to simply asking for advice on how to connect their Jigasonic X7-4000 speakers.
posted by oissubke at 11:25 AM on December 22, 2003
No, I don't. That's why I haven't asked it.
When I asked what different numeric quantities people associated with certain numbers, I got several responses (none of which seemed to be trolls), including some interesting insights about how "couple" can mean more than two to some people, etc. I was quite pleased with the answers people were giving, and was intrigued by the observations about discrepancies there were coming up. I was enjoying it. Others were enjoying it. Nobody was calling each other names. Nobody mentioned pancakes. Nobody brought up Bush. It was a good thread.
There have been various mentions on MeTa about what "works" on AskMe. To myself and several others, that thread "worked." It was pleasant, vaguely insightful, interesting those those who were interested, brief enough to be easily skipped by those who weren't interested, and perhaps most importantly, was answering my question. To me, that seems like a reasonable thread. I wouldn't see that as me effing with the site.
I guess I'm not sure what guidelines I'm supposed to be shooting for on a thread that "works."
My thread about smoking for example, at least what I saw of it before it disappeared, was informative, diplomatic, and insightful. It wasn't a trollfest. It wasn't a flamewar. It was exactly what I had hoped it would be, which was smokers talking about why they smoke, which helped me to understand something I had never understood before. People were interested. People were engaged. Learning took place in that thread.
Granted, the answers to my questions weren't "Oissubke, you've got plug the blue cable into the purple receptacle" or "Oissubke, connecting the hot water band to the johnson rod should fix your problem," but I don't think that intrinsically means that the threads didn't "work." Overall, I'd say that the sum of the threads you've deleted here probably had less noise, trolling, flaming, etc., than happens in any given fifteen minutes on the blue.
I wholeheartedly agree that specific problem solving posts seem to work quite nicely, but I don't think that AskMe must therefore be restricted to problem solving posts. I think there's room for a bit of freedom. I think there's room for the occasional straw poll.
There's a robust community here, previously restricted solely to posting and commenting on links (MeFi), or posting and commenting on posting and commenting on links (MeTa). It's been a brilliant foundation for creating and building a community, but now that community might occasionally want to ask for opinions, experiences, etc., in addition to simply asking for advice on how to connect their Jigasonic X7-4000 speakers.
posted by oissubke at 11:25 AM on December 22, 2003
I don't think oissubke is trolling as much as he is polling...but polling the AxMeFi readership for their opinions/impressions of something doesn't help solve a problem or answer what seems to be a thinly veiled rhetorical question (as mathowie alludes to above.)
Honestly, when I saw the "several, a few, many" question, I was thinking to myself "Sheesh. oissubke : Ask MetaFilter :: Miguel : MetaTalk." But I couldn't think of a way to phrase it in MeTa that wouldn't seem overly snarky. (IMHO, majick redeemed the "several, a few many" question with an observation about how those words are used to also connote uncertainty and aren't just used to be vague.)
posted by Vidiot at 11:26 AM on December 22, 2003
Honestly, when I saw the "several, a few, many" question, I was thinking to myself "Sheesh. oissubke : Ask MetaFilter :: Miguel : MetaTalk." But I couldn't think of a way to phrase it in MeTa that wouldn't seem overly snarky. (IMHO, majick redeemed the "several, a few many" question with an observation about how those words are used to also connote uncertainty and aren't just used to be vague.)
posted by Vidiot at 11:26 AM on December 22, 2003
I think there should be significant restrictions placed on ask.mefi questions.
*not googleable
*doesn't duplicate an existing resource (i.e. book clubs, who's your favorite XX)
*towards a specific goal (fixing my walls, distributing my film, etc).
*leverages the expertise of the community (like John13 said, again, via specific questions towards a goal)
I think there's room for the occasional straw poll.
Nawww. Take it to mefi-chat@yahoogroups.com, or #mefi, or wherever the cool kids hang out nowadays.
posted by djacobs at 11:35 AM on December 22, 2003
*not googleable
*doesn't duplicate an existing resource (i.e. book clubs, who's your favorite XX)
*towards a specific goal (fixing my walls, distributing my film, etc).
*leverages the expertise of the community (like John13 said, again, via specific questions towards a goal)
I think there's room for the occasional straw poll.
Nawww. Take it to mefi-chat@yahoogroups.com, or #mefi, or wherever the cool kids hang out nowadays.
posted by djacobs at 11:35 AM on December 22, 2003
Honestly, I see nothing to gain from a question of "what is your favorite color?" Do you?
No, I don't. That's why I haven't asked it.
But you did. There's not much of a difference between "Why do people like to smoke?" and "What is your favorite color?" Both are questions that require no specific expertise to answer. As I understand it, the purpose of AskMe is to use the MeFi user base to help with a specific question, kind of like a threadless, free-topic wiki.
I think there's room for the occasional straw poll.
I don't.
posted by eyeballkid at 11:36 AM on December 22, 2003
No, I don't. That's why I haven't asked it.
But you did. There's not much of a difference between "Why do people like to smoke?" and "What is your favorite color?" Both are questions that require no specific expertise to answer. As I understand it, the purpose of AskMe is to use the MeFi user base to help with a specific question, kind of like a threadless, free-topic wiki.
I think there's room for the occasional straw poll.
I don't.
posted by eyeballkid at 11:36 AM on December 22, 2003
I vote for adopting something like djacob's list as guidelines for AskMe, with "not googleable" in bold.
posted by eyeballkid at 11:39 AM on December 22, 2003
posted by eyeballkid at 11:39 AM on December 22, 2003
Hear hear. I especially like the line about leveraging the expertise of the community -- that can extend to lots of different things and has lots of room for leeway, but clearly does not extend to straw polls.
posted by Vidiot at 11:43 AM on December 22, 2003
posted by Vidiot at 11:43 AM on December 22, 2003
...that said, an occasional thread like dobbs' film thread does spice the place up a bit, without being TOO amorphous...
posted by Vidiot at 11:44 AM on December 22, 2003
posted by Vidiot at 11:44 AM on December 22, 2003
There was great potential for education, entertainment, and community-building there.
Of all the conversations that have passed on ask.mefi so far, this one has been the one that felt most like a "building of community" for me. Its clearly a straw-poll question, but until I read it I had no idea so many (other) people dreamed about their teeth falling out. I found that reassuring.
not googleable
Yes, but what does that mean? I can find things on Google that my mom cannot, and I'm sure that Matt can use Google to find things that I cannot. Ultimately, everything is Googleable (except posts like the 'dreams' post above), its all in knowing how and where to look.
The what-do-I-do in Fiji/Las Vegas/At the Park posts are the ultimate proof of this. All this information is 'Googleable' and yet is also not Googleable, because you're asking the opinion of people you (sort of) trust, rather than trying to sort through 1, 208, 928 matches on 'Las Vegas'.
posted by anastasiav at 11:51 AM on December 22, 2003
Of all the conversations that have passed on ask.mefi so far, this one has been the one that felt most like a "building of community" for me. Its clearly a straw-poll question, but until I read it I had no idea so many (other) people dreamed about their teeth falling out. I found that reassuring.
not googleable
Yes, but what does that mean? I can find things on Google that my mom cannot, and I'm sure that Matt can use Google to find things that I cannot. Ultimately, everything is Googleable (except posts like the 'dreams' post above), its all in knowing how and where to look.
The what-do-I-do in Fiji/Las Vegas/At the Park posts are the ultimate proof of this. All this information is 'Googleable' and yet is also not Googleable, because you're asking the opinion of people you (sort of) trust, rather than trying to sort through 1, 208, 928 matches on 'Las Vegas'.
posted by anastasiav at 11:51 AM on December 22, 2003
Nobody was calling each other names. Nobody mentioned pancakes. Nobody brought up Bush. It was a good thread... There have been various mentions on MeTa about what "works" on AskMe. To myself and several others, that thread "worked." It was pleasant, vaguely insightful, interesting those those who were interested, brief enough to be easily skipped by those who weren't interested, and perhaps most importantly, was answering my question. To me, that seems like a reasonable thread. I wouldn't see that as me effing with the site.
The absence of bad comments doesn't automatically make something good. You keep saying that there weren't any flamewars in the answers, therefore it should stay.
It's a largely pointless question, and I thought it was dumb and a misuse of the space.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:57 AM on December 22, 2003
The absence of bad comments doesn't automatically make something good. You keep saying that there weren't any flamewars in the answers, therefore it should stay.
It's a largely pointless question, and I thought it was dumb and a misuse of the space.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:57 AM on December 22, 2003
It's a largely pointless question, and I thought it was dumb and a misuse of the space.
So delete it. That's how the site works, right?
1. Someone makes a post. If it slips under the radar, great. If not:
2. Someone deletes the post. If the deletion slips under the radar, great. If not:
3. Someone talks about the deletion on MeTa. Explanations are given, points are debated, people tell each other they're wrong, and eventually there's some fractional improvement in future posts.
4. ????
5. Profit!
So far, looks like the system is working. Several people here disagree with several other people here, but the upshot is that the primary jackass in question (me) is going to try to word things in a bit sneakier fashion so that they "work." Maybe the conception of AskMe will bend a bit to be something other than "solvemyproblem.metafilter.com", or maybe it won't. In general, though, everyone will be 0.02% less offended since we've hopefully learned something from this discussion. Now there'll be some question marks, and then profit for everyone.
posted by oissubke at 12:15 PM on December 22, 2003
So delete it. That's how the site works, right?
1. Someone makes a post. If it slips under the radar, great. If not:
2. Someone deletes the post. If the deletion slips under the radar, great. If not:
3. Someone talks about the deletion on MeTa. Explanations are given, points are debated, people tell each other they're wrong, and eventually there's some fractional improvement in future posts.
4. ????
5. Profit!
So far, looks like the system is working. Several people here disagree with several other people here, but the upshot is that the primary jackass in question (me) is going to try to word things in a bit sneakier fashion so that they "work." Maybe the conception of AskMe will bend a bit to be something other than "solvemyproblem.metafilter.com", or maybe it won't. In general, though, everyone will be 0.02% less offended since we've hopefully learned something from this discussion. Now there'll be some question marks, and then profit for everyone.
posted by oissubke at 12:15 PM on December 22, 2003
"So far, looks like the system is working."
Especially the "annoying Matt to no end" part. Working like a charm.
kidding..... sort of....
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:27 PM on December 22, 2003
Especially the "annoying Matt to no end" part. Working like a charm.
kidding..... sort of....
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:27 PM on December 22, 2003
"It was a good thread."
Don't be silly. I don't know what sort of crowd you run with but if I had gathered my friends together, told them I had an important question I needed answered, and then asked them what the numeric range was for the word "several", they would have laughed at me. If I then went on to try and explain how this was a real question that we needed to think about they'd continue laughing.
If I kept doing this day after day I'd eventually have a difficult time gathering them together any more.
I've been trying to remain charitable, but since you seem convinced that AskMe should be open to vague rhetorical questions which resemble riddles, I think I need to return to my original assumption that you are a wingnut.
"I'd say that the sum of the threads you've deleted here probably had less noise, trolling, flaming, etc., than happens in any given fifteen minutes on the blue."
Please explain why this is a good criteria. Please. It seem to me that the more lame the question, the greater the chance there will be no flaming. Crickets, yes.
"*not googleable
*doesn't duplicate an existing resource
*towards a specific goal
*leverages the expertise of the community"
Excellent. I might change the first one to: *not quickly answered with a Google or dictionary search.
I think I'd also add:
* not a quiz or poll
* not a rhetorical question
* not flame bait
* not lame
The last one is extremely vague. But I think we all know what it means. We know it when we see it. When we read the post is our first thought, "Matt's not going to like that."?
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:44 PM on December 22, 2003
Don't be silly. I don't know what sort of crowd you run with but if I had gathered my friends together, told them I had an important question I needed answered, and then asked them what the numeric range was for the word "several", they would have laughed at me. If I then went on to try and explain how this was a real question that we needed to think about they'd continue laughing.
If I kept doing this day after day I'd eventually have a difficult time gathering them together any more.
I've been trying to remain charitable, but since you seem convinced that AskMe should be open to vague rhetorical questions which resemble riddles, I think I need to return to my original assumption that you are a wingnut.
"I'd say that the sum of the threads you've deleted here probably had less noise, trolling, flaming, etc., than happens in any given fifteen minutes on the blue."
Please explain why this is a good criteria. Please. It seem to me that the more lame the question, the greater the chance there will be no flaming. Crickets, yes.
"*not googleable
*doesn't duplicate an existing resource
*towards a specific goal
*leverages the expertise of the community"
Excellent. I might change the first one to: *not quickly answered with a Google or dictionary search.
I think I'd also add:
* not a quiz or poll
* not a rhetorical question
* not flame bait
* not lame
The last one is extremely vague. But I think we all know what it means. We know it when we see it. When we read the post is our first thought, "Matt's not going to like that."?
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:44 PM on December 22, 2003
oissubke - I should add that I think you're being 100% sincere. I don't doubt your motives. It's just that your vision for Ask MetaFilter seems very bad to me. That's just my opinion, for what it's worth.
I thought "Ask MetaFilter" meant ask for help. Not ask a question.
But since my vision for what the AskMe should be has also been beaten about the head and shoulders I could be totally full of crap.
But it's Christmas. I'm not sure about anyone else, but Christmas always puts me in a foul mood. Maybe not the best time to worry about esoteric forum guidelines.
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:53 PM on December 22, 2003
I thought "Ask MetaFilter" meant ask for help. Not ask a question.
But since my vision for what the AskMe should be has also been beaten about the head and shoulders I could be totally full of crap.
But it's Christmas. I'm not sure about anyone else, but Christmas always puts me in a foul mood. Maybe not the best time to worry about esoteric forum guidelines.
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:53 PM on December 22, 2003
Every Friday at lunchtime the radio show on the Dallas NPR station goes into a call-in Q&A format. Usually the questions are trivia, local history, or "how does x work" type inquiries, and they are answered either by the host or subsequent callers. It seems like AskMe should be similar, except of course for the technical questions or the advice quandaries which are always good.
I don't like the chatty questions either - at least on the blue you have to come up with a half decent link - but I don't like the idea of setting up a lot of pissy help desk guidelines. I mean, sentence number one here has worked so well, what makes you think a list of seven or ten will work on AskMe? Nobody will pay attention to it and it will just generate sarcastic responses of the "Check Google, fuckwit" type.
How about this:
-- No politics. No "what's your favorite?" or straw polls. Thank you! --
And then, if you think it's a stupid question, skip it! (On the other hand: if you want AskMe to be strictly for help questions, why not rename it HelpMe or MetaHelper and put it up at help.metafilter.com? Just a thought.)
posted by furiousthought at 1:34 PM on December 22, 2003
I don't like the chatty questions either - at least on the blue you have to come up with a half decent link - but I don't like the idea of setting up a lot of pissy help desk guidelines. I mean, sentence number one here has worked so well, what makes you think a list of seven or ten will work on AskMe? Nobody will pay attention to it and it will just generate sarcastic responses of the "Check Google, fuckwit" type.
How about this:
-- No politics. No "what's your favorite?" or straw polls. Thank you! --
And then, if you think it's a stupid question, skip it! (On the other hand: if you want AskMe to be strictly for help questions, why not rename it HelpMe or MetaHelper and put it up at help.metafilter.com? Just a thought.)
posted by furiousthought at 1:34 PM on December 22, 2003
IMO the best Ask threads have been ones that create a solution for a particular problem. The more common that problem is for the population in general, so much the better.
Examples include:
I'm finally getting the hang of taking nice digital photos... what's the next step? Telephoto lens, maybe?
...I was told by a sergeant that I could be doing intelligence for the military. What should I do? ...I want to have a great career, and this feels like a good start.
It's indoor heating season for many of us. Has anyone conquered really dry skin? How? I'm dying here!
What's the best way to build a classical music CD library from scratch?
Examples of what I feel were poor questions (please, authors, don't think I hate you):
What's the best digital camera in the $200-$300 range? IMO, it's dead easy to find good digital camera reviews that will answer this question. We're not likely to contribute any information or opinions that aren't already available at consumer or professional review sites.
...In spite of ignoring the offer to join the service, I may still end up becoming an "instant member"... Anyone else discover any suprises while shopping for the holidays? This doesn't solve any problems, doesn't demand expertise, etcetera. It basically boils down to an opinion poll. Perhaps AskMeFi should be cloned, and the clone named "OpinionPollFilter" -- this polling-style question seems common.
Can I fake a fixed IP address? This is a specific problem that can tap MeFi expertise, may be applicable to the general population, and did come up with a solution -- but it sounds very googleable to me: typing "fixed ip solution" came up with an answer on the first page.
What would probably be a really good idea is for Matt to flag the best AskMeFi questions, so that we can start developing some sense of what he's envisioning.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:41 PM on December 22, 2003
Examples include:
I'm finally getting the hang of taking nice digital photos... what's the next step? Telephoto lens, maybe?
...I was told by a sergeant that I could be doing intelligence for the military. What should I do? ...I want to have a great career, and this feels like a good start.
It's indoor heating season for many of us. Has anyone conquered really dry skin? How? I'm dying here!
What's the best way to build a classical music CD library from scratch?
Examples of what I feel were poor questions (please, authors, don't think I hate you):
What's the best digital camera in the $200-$300 range? IMO, it's dead easy to find good digital camera reviews that will answer this question. We're not likely to contribute any information or opinions that aren't already available at consumer or professional review sites.
...In spite of ignoring the offer to join the service, I may still end up becoming an "instant member"... Anyone else discover any suprises while shopping for the holidays? This doesn't solve any problems, doesn't demand expertise, etcetera. It basically boils down to an opinion poll. Perhaps AskMeFi should be cloned, and the clone named "OpinionPollFilter" -- this polling-style question seems common.
Can I fake a fixed IP address? This is a specific problem that can tap MeFi expertise, may be applicable to the general population, and did come up with a solution -- but it sounds very googleable to me: typing "fixed ip solution" came up with an answer on the first page.
What would probably be a really good idea is for Matt to flag the best AskMeFi questions, so that we can start developing some sense of what he's envisioning.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:41 PM on December 22, 2003
I was quite pleased with the answers people were giving, and was intrigued by the observations about discrepancies there were coming up. I was enjoying it. Others were enjoying it.
That's the crux of the disconnect, oissubke. Matt and others aren't looking for Ask MetaFilter to be enjoyable. They're looking for it to be useful. They want the answers to directly solve a specific problem, and "I always wondered" isn't really that much of a problem.
There're all kinds of places you can go for enjoyable conversation. The problem with treating Ask MetaFilter as a source for enjoyable conversation is that it will tend to create noise that distracts from the genuine problems that could be solved.
posted by willnot at 3:11 PM on December 22, 2003
That's the crux of the disconnect, oissubke. Matt and others aren't looking for Ask MetaFilter to be enjoyable. They're looking for it to be useful. They want the answers to directly solve a specific problem, and "I always wondered" isn't really that much of a problem.
There're all kinds of places you can go for enjoyable conversation. The problem with treating Ask MetaFilter as a source for enjoyable conversation is that it will tend to create noise that distracts from the genuine problems that could be solved.
posted by willnot at 3:11 PM on December 22, 2003
Ask MetaFilter is born. Feel free to pose a question to other members here. Obviously those of a technical nature are going to meet with the most success, but questions outside of that realm are also good too.
I'll delete dumb questions or those that prove to be nothing but flamewars and/or goof-off fests... - mathowie
there is an untapped potential in the mefi userbase when it comes to advice and general knowledge- Hackworth (AskMe's inventor)
posted by dash_slot- at 3:45 PM on December 22, 2003
I'll delete dumb questions or those that prove to be nothing but flamewars and/or goof-off fests... - mathowie
there is an untapped potential in the mefi userbase when it comes to advice and general knowledge- Hackworth (AskMe's inventor)
posted by dash_slot- at 3:45 PM on December 22, 2003
eek. i'm very late to the thread and feel like a bit of an ass. i asked both the "obscure movies" question and the "recommended music" question, both of which i guess could be considered "polls". at the same time, I've found the answers people gave to be of tremendous benefit, and, based on comments in the threads, so have others.
i'm afraid I don't have any suggestions to offer for guidelines, but i do think that if they're too strict or limiting, it might be less fun to pop in there. perhaps that's the point? it seems like "fun" isn't in anyone's criteria, above, though I suppose that might be encompassed under "building the community". (i'm NOT trying to say you folks are specifically trying to make it not fun, just that that might be the result of strict guidelines.)
to me, not googleable is pretty damn strict. in reality, i could google for digital cameras 200-300 bucks, lists of good movies, beginner's guide to classical, etc. i may not get as quick or pinpointed an answer as those threads have gotten on askme but I can certainly see where such a rule would result in "you could have googled that!"
posted by dobbs at 4:00 PM on December 22, 2003
i'm afraid I don't have any suggestions to offer for guidelines, but i do think that if they're too strict or limiting, it might be less fun to pop in there. perhaps that's the point? it seems like "fun" isn't in anyone's criteria, above, though I suppose that might be encompassed under "building the community". (i'm NOT trying to say you folks are specifically trying to make it not fun, just that that might be the result of strict guidelines.)
to me, not googleable is pretty damn strict. in reality, i could google for digital cameras 200-300 bucks, lists of good movies, beginner's guide to classical, etc. i may not get as quick or pinpointed an answer as those threads have gotten on askme but I can certainly see where such a rule would result in "you could have googled that!"
posted by dobbs at 4:00 PM on December 22, 2003
not googleable
How long is a piece of string?
As mentioned above, everything is googleable (is that a real word?), but you have to know exactly what it is you are searching for - you need the answer before you can find the question, in many cases. In the thread I started, the solution was simple and readily available via Google once I knew the answer. I had spent a considerable time searching on Google for an answer before turning to AskMeFi, but was not looking in the right places.
One of the other strengths of AskMeFi is that we can gain real information on solutions that work. It is one thing to turn up a zillion sources via Google that seem to answer your question, but how do you know who to trust? Being able to read "I had this problem and I tried x and it worked perfectly" from someone who you have some interaction with and can make at least a fair assessment of whether you trust their knowledge or not adds immense value to the information you get. Ideally, the person who asked the question should come back to the thread and let everyone know how things worked out so that the information is verified and becomes a valuable reference source for the future.
posted by dg at 4:29 PM on December 22, 2003
How long is a piece of string?
As mentioned above, everything is googleable (is that a real word?), but you have to know exactly what it is you are searching for - you need the answer before you can find the question, in many cases. In the thread I started, the solution was simple and readily available via Google once I knew the answer. I had spent a considerable time searching on Google for an answer before turning to AskMeFi, but was not looking in the right places.
One of the other strengths of AskMeFi is that we can gain real information on solutions that work. It is one thing to turn up a zillion sources via Google that seem to answer your question, but how do you know who to trust? Being able to read "I had this problem and I tried x and it worked perfectly" from someone who you have some interaction with and can make at least a fair assessment of whether you trust their knowledge or not adds immense value to the information you get. Ideally, the person who asked the question should come back to the thread and let everyone know how things worked out so that the information is verified and becomes a valuable reference source for the future.
posted by dg at 4:29 PM on December 22, 2003
ask anything, just be sure it's not fun. cuz on metafilter, we don't beleive in fun. we're serious business mofo's round here, so take your number and pose your weekly question, and pay no attention to those people laughing their asses off at you, they're just having some fun.
posted by quonsar at 4:42 PM on December 22, 2003
posted by quonsar at 4:42 PM on December 22, 2003
i asked both the "obscure movies" question and the "recommended music" question, both of which i guess could be considered "polls". at the same time, I've found the answers people gave to be of tremendous benefit, and, based on comments in the threads, so have others
dobbs, both of those were good questions.
It'll be hard to come up with clear guidelines, the questions I have deleted all seemed to be so general to be nearly useless, whereas a "give me some obscure movies" thread did turn out all sorts of good answers to your dilema.
Perhaps I should forget about guidelines and just approve questions before they get posted, though I suspect there are a lot of borderline questions I would feel conflicted about and people might complain about their questions that didn't get through.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:44 PM on December 22, 2003
dobbs, both of those were good questions.
It'll be hard to come up with clear guidelines, the questions I have deleted all seemed to be so general to be nearly useless, whereas a "give me some obscure movies" thread did turn out all sorts of good answers to your dilema.
Perhaps I should forget about guidelines and just approve questions before they get posted, though I suspect there are a lot of borderline questions I would feel conflicted about and people might complain about their questions that didn't get through.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:44 PM on December 22, 2003
There's a difference between asking "dumb questions" (I don't like that phrase) that can be readily answered with a little google-effort, and asking "dumb questions" which show some sort of indication that you've done a bit of research and have a general understanding of what it is you want to have solved.
I'd like the AskMeFi about good bildungsroman books suited for young teenaged girls. But before I just leap in there and spew it out, I'm going to make at least a bit of effort to learn what the term really means, find out if any librarians have teen-girl booklists that I can survey, and give a little bit of thought about what it is I'd like the girl to get out of the book.
With any luck, it'll turn out I don't need to AskMeFi: I'll have answered it myself.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:03 PM on December 22, 2003
I'd like the AskMeFi about good bildungsroman books suited for young teenaged girls. But before I just leap in there and spew it out, I'm going to make at least a bit of effort to learn what the term really means, find out if any librarians have teen-girl booklists that I can survey, and give a little bit of thought about what it is I'd like the girl to get out of the book.
With any luck, it'll turn out I don't need to AskMeFi: I'll have answered it myself.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:03 PM on December 22, 2003
mathowie: "Perhaps I should forget about guidelines and just approve questions before they get posted, though I suspect there are a lot of borderline questions I would feel conflicted..."
I'm hating this idea. Why on earth would you want to spend your time moderating? What about the self policing thing (we're doing so well in the blue)? I also wonder if any one person (owner of the site or not) should be the final arbiter of what gets asked... no matter how good your intentions, your personal opinion about what is interesting is bound to conflict with other, also legitimate, opinions. Is it a resource for all, or a resource for Matt?
Some of the suggested guidelines posted in this thread are excellent. Aside from them, a limit of a post week or three a month should prevent anyone from injecting too much lameness at any one time. If someone persists, maybe the Iron Fist theory of management is called for -- at least then you'd be making one decision instead of moderating dozens of queries a day.
I think that clear and 'carved in stone' guidelines are the way to go. Experiment all you want in the blue, but if you want AskMeFi to grow into a genuinely useful resource I don't see how you have any choice but to formulate strict guidelines and adhere to them.
posted by cedar at 7:23 PM on December 22, 2003
I'm hating this idea. Why on earth would you want to spend your time moderating? What about the self policing thing (we're doing so well in the blue)? I also wonder if any one person (owner of the site or not) should be the final arbiter of what gets asked... no matter how good your intentions, your personal opinion about what is interesting is bound to conflict with other, also legitimate, opinions. Is it a resource for all, or a resource for Matt?
Some of the suggested guidelines posted in this thread are excellent. Aside from them, a limit of a post week or three a month should prevent anyone from injecting too much lameness at any one time. If someone persists, maybe the Iron Fist theory of management is called for -- at least then you'd be making one decision instead of moderating dozens of queries a day.
I think that clear and 'carved in stone' guidelines are the way to go. Experiment all you want in the blue, but if you want AskMeFi to grow into a genuinely useful resource I don't see how you have any choice but to formulate strict guidelines and adhere to them.
posted by cedar at 7:23 PM on December 22, 2003
Of course Matt is the final arbitrater for all things Meta. He does the backend work and foots the bill: that makes him king and god. Whether he chooses to arbitrate is another think entirely: as our usually benevolent lord and liege master, he seems pretty much happy to let the place run itself as much as possible.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:42 PM on December 22, 2003
posted by five fresh fish at 10:42 PM on December 22, 2003
Hey, here's what might be a good idea!
How about implementing a "gold star" system on MeFi, MeTa, and Ask? Just a little indicator of the stuff you've found particularly good, nothing more. No policy changes, no overlording, no real work required (except some code hacking.)
This would provide everyone a bit of feedback on what you like, without being overbearing or making rules.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:46 PM on December 22, 2003
How about implementing a "gold star" system on MeFi, MeTa, and Ask? Just a little indicator of the stuff you've found particularly good, nothing more. No policy changes, no overlording, no real work required (except some code hacking.)
This would provide everyone a bit of feedback on what you like, without being overbearing or making rules.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:46 PM on December 22, 2003
What would probably be a really good idea is for Matt to flag the best AskMeFi questions, so that we can start developing some sense of what he's envisioning.
just thought that someone should bring this up again.
posted by joedan at 1:53 AM on December 23, 2003
just thought that someone should bring this up again.
posted by joedan at 1:53 AM on December 23, 2003
Come on - thanks to Matt's impeccable involvement and monitoring of AskMe, it's been great so far. Even persistent MeTa offenders like me have held back from chatting, in-jokes or too-frequent questions, by this wonderful addition to our community. He has the vision and is applying it and the truth is that it's working out just fine.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 3:09 AM on December 23, 2003
posted by MiguelCardoso at 3:09 AM on December 23, 2003
Taglines!!!
AskMetaFilter: Not Googleable
AskMetaFilter: Not a Quiz or Poll
AskMetaFilter: Not a Rhetorical Question
AskMetaFilter: Not Flame Bait
AskMetaFilter: Not Lame
posted by wendell at 8:28 PM on December 23, 2003
AskMetaFilter: Not Googleable
AskMetaFilter: Not a Quiz or Poll
AskMetaFilter: Not a Rhetorical Question
AskMetaFilter: Not Flame Bait
AskMetaFilter: Not Lame
posted by wendell at 8:28 PM on December 23, 2003
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I agree with you oisso, that the posts are very similar in style.
posted by ashbury at 6:31 AM on December 22, 2003