y2karl, why would you link to goatse?

June 30, 2004 4:23 PM

y2karl, why would you link to *NSFW*NSFW* goatse *NSFW*NSFW* ?
posted by Kwantsar to etiquette/policy at 4:23 PM (89 comments total)

Am I missing something? Was it changed? It's a screenshot of an IRC chat now. Or maybe it always was.
posted by xmutex at 4:34 PM on June 30, 2004

??????

I see a cat, napping
posted by matteo at 4:36 PM on June 30, 2004

Is this like a stare-really-hard-at-the-screen-and-tell-me-what-you-see thing?
posted by xmutex at 4:37 PM on June 30, 2004

hmm... yeah, all I get is a screen cap of irc. but the directory that that pic sits in does have a goatse.cx pic and one of a cat in it...
posted by GeekAnimator at 4:39 PM on June 30, 2004

there some kind of god-damned voodoo going here ain't there
posted by xmutex at 4:40 PM on June 30, 2004

I see a mirror image of two giant black bugs. No wait, I see an umbrella.
posted by eastlakestandard at 4:44 PM on June 30, 2004

Reaction time is a factor in this, so please pay attention.
posted by ook at 4:51 PM on June 30, 2004

Metafilter: Reaction time is a factor in this, so please pay attention.

I always wanted to do one of those.
/runs away
posted by Krrrlson at 4:55 PM on June 30, 2004

Ha ha ha ha. You dumb bastard. It's not a schooner... it's a Sailboat.
posted by jerseygirl at 4:57 PM on June 30, 2004

FREE GOATSE!
posted by homunculus at 5:05 PM on June 30, 2004

earlier today that graphic was a "vote for prez bush" button... karl/somebody's just changing the graphic every so often, keeping the same file name so it still shows up in the thread. not that anyone needed that obvious fact explained to them... i'm just witlessly chatty today.
posted by t r a c y at 5:14 PM on June 30, 2004

y2karl, maybe you could just come out and say what you think the problem with this is?
posted by wobh at 5:18 PM on June 30, 2004

Was karl hacked? Did he hotlink someone else's image?
posted by scarabic at 5:24 PM on June 30, 2004

Karl was hawking lazy-ville's images, so if anyone really thinks about it at all, you can probably figure out what's going on. The phone tapping bit was because y2karl has a problem with people logging plaintext irc conversations. Thanks, I also do birthday parties.
posted by angry modem at 5:42 PM on June 30, 2004

Boy, one thing for sure, everybody on #mefi posts their favorite conversations. You got your filmgoerjuan, you got your quonsar, you got your lazy-ville. I guess I was responding to lazy-ville's little challenge.

The thing is, I didn't know about this little cultural practice of copying people's IRC plain text coversations and posting them online later on. I don't think most people are so internet savvy that they know of this little feature. Now, in lazy-ville's link, oaf remarks at the end that it wasn't like recording a phone call but it was like recording a conference call--and he promptly got shot down for writing that. However, I don't think it's a bad analogy. People think they are having a conversation and don't consciously think of the ramifications of what they are revealing and to whom. I should think the ethical thing to do is make sure people are aware of how things work and what can happen and that they be reminded of this regularly lest they forget.

I didn't know about it--that it could bd done or that it was such an online cottage industry--and I think it stinks. Just because you can do something doesn't make it ethical--even less so if it is not common knowledge. It's not common knowledge as far as I am concerned. From lazy-ville, I know everything anyone's said about me on #mefi. Back to fucking forever. It's not a big deal for me--but I was amazed, in the other examples I found, how much of what people say about each other behind their backs gets put up. La Rochefoucauld was right. Hypocrisy really is a tax that vice pays to virtue.

So, thank lazy-ville for goat.se. It seemed like a bright idea to him at the time, I'm sure.

Revenge is almost always the motive for posting these IRC quotes, too, I notice.

So, chat on #mefi, kids, but don't cross anyone while you are there or here. You'll find your name in unexpected places otherwise. And the posters will snort and sidestep the ethical aspect of copying people's IRC comments and reposting it without their knowledge or permission if you complain. Everybody does it is the rationale. There's no moral problem in it for them. They just conveniently ignore that aspect.
posted by y2karl at 1:42 AM on July 1, 2004

I didn't know about it--that it could bd done or that it was such an online cottage industry--and I think it stinks. Just because you can do something doesn't make it ethical--even less so if it is not common knowledge.
True dat. I am aware now that it is common for people to keep logs and share them around, but I was certainly not always aware of it. Likewise, the claim that "everyone does it" is really not a good enough reason to do something, regardless of how harmless it may seem.

The bottom line is that everything you write anywhere that is part of the Internet should be treated as public, no matter how private you think is is or should be. Don't write anything you would not say over an open radio channel, because you never know who is listening and what they will do with what you say. Sad, but true.

Also, hotlinking is bad and those who do it deserve whatever they get.
posted by dg at 3:31 AM on July 1, 2004

...such as having their comments deleted, making this thread unintelligible.
posted by cbrody at 3:38 AM on July 1, 2004

the public posting of irc logs always has an unintended equalizing effect - everyone involved ends up looking like an insane blatherskite.
posted by t r a c y at 4:09 AM on July 1, 2004

I don't. I'm great.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 4:47 AM on July 1, 2004

Just because you can do something doesn't make it ethical

Perhaps by your code of ethics. Don't expect the rest of us to subscribe. ;-P
posted by mischief at 5:18 AM on July 1, 2004

I think the air is going out of this tire.
posted by troutfishing at 5:44 AM on July 1, 2004

? havent t? pjo' fu?????est idead p??
posted by hama7 at 6:55 AM on July 1, 2004

Thank you y2karl for explaining your views on this. I'm sorry you feel stung by it, but it is a consequence of fundamental property of computers and networking. Among other things, this property makes community websites like this one work at all. There is no way around it.

As to the ethics, the telephone analogies are poor, and a basic social analogy is much more appropriate. If one goes to a party, gets a little drunk and says something embarrassing, it is irrational for one to expect people to forget about it and naive to think it wont get used against one in some way.

People often say things they don't mean, or exaggerate their feelings to draw attention to themselves. The amount of exaggeration is in direct proportion to the amount of attention desired. There is a variety of strategies used to this end, such as making scapegoats, creating pet peeves, throwing a tantrum, or going on a crusade about something. The internet doesn't change this aspect of human interaction, it just creates a new medium for it to be acted out in.

(I also disagree that revenge is a primary motive, and not a simple desire to archive something funny. It's just that cruelty is often funny.)

Besides, without hypocrisy many people would be both boring and stuffy (see also this thread).

Now, perhaps you can explain why you are tilting at this windmill in a thread about a blog by "Bill Clinton"?

P.S. ATTENTION LAZYVILLE: if you have the complete conversation in which dios told the joke about his date with wheelchair girl, I would very much like to see it again. Thank you.
posted by wobh at 7:05 AM on July 1, 2004

If one goes to a party, gets a little drunk and says something embarrassing, it is irrational for one to expect people to forget about it and naive to think it wont get used against one in some way.

That is a situation within common knowledge. People might gossip about what they heard someone blurt out but in most cases they don't drive cars around neighborhoods broadcasting it to strangers. Huffing and puffing and waxing philosopical about common properties of the internet doesn't change that fact. Printing photographs is a common technology, too, but you won't see your pictures taped to the windows of the Fotomat when you go to pick them up.

And I didn't bring it up in a Bill Clinton thread. It actually was a cute kitty picture. There was a jab involved but I assumed lazy-ville would simply yank it and leave a field of blue. I misunderestimated him.

And does dios still come to #mefi ? And was the reprinting of his funny story run by him before it was posted ?

I don't object to the practice as much the idea that people should know this and its entirely their responsibility if they don't. It's mean old world, sure, but people deserve a fair warning about what is not common knowledge. As the conversation above demonstrates, many people do not know this consequence of fundamental property.
posted by y2karl at 7:30 AM on July 1, 2004

I don't object to the practice as much the idea that people should know this and its entirely their responsibility if they don't.

This boggles my mind. y2karl, I always assumed your online experience would have predated, say, Y2K. Yet you weren't aware that anything you say on the Internet - no matter what form or flavor - should be treated as though it's going into a massive archive that could later be accessed by your worst enemy? Wow.

Again, that's not to say that something like this should be done, especially not within the mores of a given online community. And the "punishment" doesn't fit the crime, but this does provide a handy argument against putting inline images in threads (or, as dg so quaintly calls it, "hotlinking").
posted by soyjoy at 7:40 AM on July 1, 2004

So where should I look to find everything said about me on #mefi since the beginning?
posted by timeistight at 9:46 AM on July 1, 2004

There Is No Cat
posted by matteo at 10:19 AM on July 1, 2004

I started reading lazy-ville's copy of every IRC thread mentioning y2karl and felt I was listening in on a particularly nasty kindergarten recess. Now I know why I don't go to #mefi. And people say MetaTalk is bad!

Also, what y2karl said about being able to do something not making it right. If anybody even knows what "right" means these days.
posted by languagehat at 10:27 AM on July 1, 2004

Some people get so upset about what happens in the culture surrounding this website. It's almost sort of cute.
posted by xmutex at 10:36 AM on July 1, 2004

Everything typed over IM and on IRC - in channel and in private chats, can be logged. Everything you say on the IRC server running mefi can be accessed by the IRCop. That's just the way it is. I'm no big fan of people posting logs, but it happens.

For anyone to read them as "evidence" or whole truth is pretty silly. They can easily be manipulated or created out of thin air, no problem....

[07:51] ‹dg› isn't salmonberry awesome?
[07:51] ‹eyeballkid› she is the greatest, no doubt
[07:52] ‹malphigian› She's almost perfect, isn't she?
[07:52] ‹attackthetaxi› I can't disagree with you, malph
[07:52] ‹malphigian› If only everyone could be like her.
[07:53] * eyeballkid sighs wistfully

Only, that log is REAL!
posted by Salmonberry at 10:58 AM on July 1, 2004

yes, Salmonberry, but you deleted the [sarcasm] tags...
posted by wendell at 11:20 AM on July 1, 2004

[07:51] ‹dg› isn't salmonberry a bitch?
[07:51] ‹eyeballkid› she is, no doubt
[07:52] ‹malphigian› She's almost demonic, isn't she?
[07:52] ‹attackthetaxi› I can't disagree with you, malph
[07:52] ‹malphigian› If only she could be like the rest of us.
[07:53] * eyeballkid sighs wistfully


; >
posted by amberglow at 11:55 AM on July 1, 2004

[07:51] ‹dg› isn't salmonberry a bitch?
[07:51] ‹quonsar› oh, who cares about her? quonsar is here!
[07:51] ‹eyeballkid› she is, no doubt
[07:52] ‹malphigian› She's almost demonic, isn't she?
[07:52] ‹quonsar› quonsar is domestic. low carb, too.
[07:52] ‹attackthetaxi› I can't disagree with you, malph
[07:52] ‹malphigian› If only she could be like the rest of us.
[07:53] ‹quonsar› if only she were more like quonsar.
[07:53] ‹quonsar› quonsar! quonsar! quonsar!
[07:53] * eyeballkid wists sighfully
posted by quonsar at 12:00 PM on July 1, 2004

[07:51] ‹dg› isn't salmonberry really quonsar?
posted by amberglow at 12:03 PM on July 1, 2004

Game, set, match, quonsar.

And therefore (apparently), me.
posted by Salmonberry at 12:07 PM on July 1, 2004

because, after all, it's all about quonsar.
posted by crunchland at 12:40 PM on July 1, 2004

I can't believe y2karl gets upset about people posting IRC chat logs. What a buffoon.
posted by reklaw at 1:40 PM on July 1, 2004

IF YOU DON'T STOP POSTING CHAT LOGS WITH MY NAME ON THEM I'M GOING TO STORM OUT OF METATALK IN A HUFF!

AND THEN I'M GOING TO BITCH AND MOAN ABOUT IT TO ANYONE WHO WILL LISTEN EVEN IF THEY DON'T CARE.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
posted by eyeballkid at 1:44 PM on July 1, 2004

[07:51] ‹dg› isn't salmonberry awesome?
[07:51] ‹eyeballkid› she is the greatest, no doubt

(that was, of course, before I met her in person and experienced teh True Evil™)
posted by eyeballkid at 1:48 PM on July 1, 2004

now back to the clubhouse for some high fives!
posted by y2karl at 1:49 PM on July 1, 2004

I can't believe y2karl gets upset about people posting IRC chat logs.

well, he's not, not really.

1) y2karl posts an image from someone elses open image directory over which he has no control, which will appear over his byline.

2) that someone then begins to substitute more egregious imagery, which, of course, continues to appear under y2karl's byline and over which he has no control.

3) y2karl realizes the error inherent in linking to images over which he has no control and which will appear over his byline, and begins carping about how horrid irc is, and how atrocious it is that people would do such unrelated and irrelevant things as post irc logs.

which is cute, but which really has nothing to do with posting images which you don't control, and which appear under your byline.
posted by quonsar at 2:07 PM on July 1, 2004

*high fives quonsar*
posted by turbodog at 2:45 PM on July 1, 2004

well, he's not, not really.

Well, actually I am. As what appears under my byline--like I said, I misunderestimated lazy-ville--and any fool could delete letters from the url to the first backslash and hit 'Go' to figure out which MetaFilter member switched pictures, knowing full well what he was doing while he was doing it--who could have stuck with the I Support Bush, but no-o-o-o...

I had no idea he would be so stupid as to post the goatse jpg. The #mefi chat log around his posting it is no doubt edifying in this regard.
posted by y2karl at 2:48 PM on July 1, 2004

We have a clubhouse? You bastards.
posted by yerfatma at 2:49 PM on July 1, 2004

a handy argument against putting inline images in threads (or, as dg so quaintly calls it, "hotlinking").
I was not suggesting that inline images in threads are necessarily bad (although they almost always are), but posting images that do not belong to you is, first of all, a kind of theft and, more importantly, not a good idea at all, because you do not control the image. Many people routinely replace images that have been hotlinked with something either funny or offensive to teach the person doing it a lesson. This works fine when the person linking the image can change the link and, having learned their lesson, change their evil ways. In a situation like MeFi, the person doing the linking does not control the link in any way once it has been committed and is at the mercy of the person owning the image.

The only similarity between the practice of logging and publishing chat logs and the one of replacing hotlinked images is that they are both unknown to novices in the mysterious ways of the Internet (y2karl sort of proved his own point inadvertently by hotlinking the image in the first place). Neither of these would be considered good manners, but are the end result of actions by someone who should know better. It cannot be said enough - nothing you put on the Internet is private and there is always a chance that what you do or say will be displayed for all the world to see and may be available forever. You should act accordingly at all times.
posted by dg at 3:05 PM on July 1, 2004

So you didn't mean, to post that at all?. y2karl, I am truely sorry for going off on you like that. Obviously, I totally misread the situation. I wish I felt more foolish about it.
posted by wobh at 3:07 PM on July 1, 2004

[07:52] ‹quonsar› quonsar is domestic. low carb, too.
Now featured in the movie: "The Atkins Wives".
posted by wendell at 3:13 PM on July 1, 2004

I think the only reason the IRC thing came up at all was that the directory in question contained a file called karl.txt, which led me to believe that karl might in fact be the owner of that web space, which would mean he did knowingly post das goatse. The explanation of why it's there, given that it's not his web space, was the IRC feud.
posted by scarabic at 3:53 PM on July 1, 2004

Here's a thought experiment: would there be this discussion here at all if lazy-ville had put up the goatse jpeg?

No.

Would I have linked to his picture had I know or even suspected he would do something like that ?

No

As to whether it was his idea and he was egged on--or, indeed, given the bright idea--by the gang at the clubhouse, well, it's on a log somewhere no doubt.

I have never had words with lazy-ville here or at #mefi, the times I was there, that I can recall. His first response clever enough--I could see that, from another set of eyes, I deserved as much. If he just stuck with that, this wouldn't be an issue here. It would have not become a MetaTalk post.

Think about that for awhile, high fivin' white boys, next time you egg each other on or cook up another bright idea.
posted by y2karl at 3:57 PM on July 1, 2004

quonsar posted:

[an explanation]... which is cute, but which really has nothing to do with posting images which you don't control, and which appear under your byline.

and dg said:

posting images that do not belong to you is, first of all, a kind of theft

... which, really, brings me to the conclusion that both sides are being stupid. "Waah, he stole my bandwidth!", "Waah, he posted IRC chat logs!"

Getting upset about either thing makes you look as silly as some clueless company harping about people linking to them without reading their 'acceptable linking policy'. I've said it before (and everyone seems to disagree), but this is the fucking internet. People will link to your images inline. People will post IRC chat logs. It doesn't matter whether you think either of those things are horrible or immoral or unethical or what-the-fuck-ever -- they will do it anyway.

The only power you have is on your own end. You restrict access to your images from outside your own website (every web server I've ever used makes this very easy to do). You don't say things in IRC that you don't want posted online (I mean, they were being read by loads of other people in the channel anyway...).

People on the internet will do as they please. Throwing a strop and bitching at each other will not help.
posted by reklaw at 4:27 PM on July 1, 2004

You IRC people need to spend more time talking about me!

Actually, no, never mind. Ya'll's kinda mean.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:28 PM on July 1, 2004

*me smiles up at quonsar, thanks him for the nutty-buddy and the explanation and the chance to see a flourish of nosehairs, skips off to begin his own bittersweet journey through the neverending cosmic prank*
posted by Opus Dark at 4:47 PM on July 1, 2004

[07:51] ‹dg› isn't salmonberry a bitch?
[07:51] ‹quonsar› oh, who cares about her? stavros is my hero!
[07:51] ‹eyeballkid› he is, no doubt
[07:52] ‹malphigian› She's almost demonic, isn't she?
[07:52] ‹quonsar› stavros makes me quiver.
[07:52] ‹attackthetaxi› I can't disagree with you, q
[07:52] ‹malphigian› If only he could educate the rest of us.
[07:53] ‹quonsar› if only I were less like quonsar.
[07:53] ‹quonsar› stavros! stavros! stavros
[07:53] * eyeballkid wipes sightlessly
posted by eyeballkid at 5:14 PM on July 1, 2004

So today we've learnt never to link images from people who might mess with you, and that irc is a hotbed of gossip and backbiting.

Who knew?
posted by inpHilltr8r at 5:34 PM on July 1, 2004

It doesn't matter whether you think either of those things are horrible or immoral or unethical or what-the-fuck-ever -- they will do it anyway.
No, but that doesn't mean you have to like it.

Throwing a strop and bitching at each other will not help.
True, but it's fun ain't it?

y2karl, I doubt that anyone really believed you would deliberately post the goatse picture and it was obvious (to me, at least) that you had fallen victim to your own error in hotlinking someone else's image.
posted by dg at 6:07 PM on July 1, 2004

We have a clubhouse? You bastards.

Eh. It's not so great. We only get to snort peruvian flake off Maggie Gyllenhaal's ass twice a week.

You're not missing much. really.
posted by jonmc at 6:29 PM on July 1, 2004

correction: portuguese dandruff.
posted by quonsar at 6:50 PM on July 1, 2004

Oh why don't you just sharapova the whole head and shoulders question, quonsar! ;)
posted by MiguelCardoso at 7:10 PM on July 1, 2004

correction
posted by MiguelCardoso at 7:13 PM on July 1, 2004

We did actually chat about cats once, it's also in the log. The goatse pic was there only for 30 seconds or so, I didn't figure anyone would catch it. Bandwidth wasn't an issue, nor did I have any particular reason to post the y2karl log, it could've just as well been a log of anyone complaining about irc logging. Maybe I'm just a troublemaker.

Summertime / And the living is easy / Fish are jumpin' / And the cotton is high...
posted by lazy-ville at 7:53 PM on July 1, 2004

um, y2karl, I asked dios if he cared (I) we posted the logs, and he said he didn't care.
posted by angry modem at 7:53 PM on July 1, 2004

i'll be over at the latrine, posting a log.
posted by quonsar at 7:59 PM on July 1, 2004

You don't say things in IRC that you don't want posted online (I mean, they were being read by loads of other people in the channel anyway...).

All I am saying is that the above sentence should be in bold on the MetaFilter wiki IRC page. People do not know these things. This was not common knowledge among the membership here before recently, I suspect.

The other part of the equation is, of course I did not post a link to goatse--that would be sticking a finger in the collective eye here, taking a shit on the blue as some like to say it. I didn't put the goatse picture there. lazy-ville did that. He's a member of MetaFilter and knew full well what he was doing when he did it.

I suspect, given the nature of the discourse at #mefi, he discussed doing it and got approval from the members there. So, members there who are members here participated in his conscious act. I didn't egg him on, I didn't think of the idea, I didn't point a gun at lazy-ville and force him to do it. He or someone else at #mefi came up with that bright idea.

That's the kind of place it is--someone posts a snappy comment here and then logs on to #mefi to link it there. Or they log on to bitch about some outrage here and get pumped up by the crew there to come over here and continue some pointless feud. quonsar got his ass banned for refusing to stop baiting the member whose name I have forgotten and who should probably remain nameless anyway. I mean the guy threatened quonsar with physical violence and quonsar would not quit baiting him. He'd bring it up in threads totally unrelated days afterward. I can't understand that part of the quonsar mentality.

And where'd he go to crow about his latest zinger when he was deep in it? #mefi. Where they throw gasoline on any MetaFilter fire. #mefi is bad for MetaFilter. That's my conclusion.
posted by y2karl at 8:15 PM on July 1, 2004

the above sentence should be in bold on the MetaFilter wiki IRC page
... and now it is. Well, not in bold and not quite the same sentence, but the warning is there for all to see.
posted by dg at 8:40 PM on July 1, 2004

#mefi is bad for MetaFilter.

On the contrary, #mefi lets users meet and get to know people they might otherwise despise based on their posting here. After having shot the shit real-time with some of my least favourite vast-right-wing-conspiracy-types in #mefi, I'm much more tolerant of their positions and posts. You can't judge people until you've shared a virtual tawny port and cigar with them, and #mefi provides such an opportunity.
posted by Jimbob at 8:56 PM on July 1, 2004

scroll to the bottom.

and thus ends my addition to this thread.
posted by bargle at 9:18 PM on July 1, 2004

Some of what Jimbob said. On the occasions I visit #mefi, I get to virtually meet and somewhat converse with other members in a fashion quite different than here. the real time chat is enjoyable to me, and I feel I've acquired some cyber "friends".
posted by scottymac at 9:23 PM on July 1, 2004

y2karl: "He'd bring it up in threads totally unrelated days afterward."

So, kind of like what you did when you posted that image to the completely unrelated Bill Clinton thread. It was you who took the dump (even if it was a cute kitty) right in the middle of that thread. And I bet the whole reason was to provoke a response from me, so you could bitch and moan about #mefi in yet another metatalk thread. The bullshit line about "just posting a cute kitty pic" is just as obvious a lie as me saying: "I'm just trying to prove y2karl's point with these logs".
posted by lazy-ville at 4:45 AM on July 2, 2004

I suspect, given the nature of the discourse at #mefi, he discussed doing it and got approval from the members there. So, members there who are members here participated in his conscious act.

Well, I'm there a lot, and dominated the recent stats (geez I need to get a life), and I saw no discussion of it, nor approval.

And by the way y2karl I like you and I really enjoy your posts, and have never said anything bad about you at #mefi. When people mention you and grouse, I pipe up "Well, I like him". I like it when you show up there, because I think you're an interesting person and I like chatting with you.

I think the lesson here is really, if you're going to nab someone's picture, copy the picture and host it at your own space, lest you be subject to image-changing wackiness at best, and horror at worst. I think wackiness is defendable, but for instance goatse really isn't.

I don't understand why people feel such animosity towards y2karl, and I think that file holding everything about him and everything he ever said on #mefi is rather cruel. I mean, I'm sure people say horrible things about *me* when I'm not there, but please please don't shove them in my face, okay? (This is not a challenge).

I think #mefi is somewhat orthogonal to MetaFilter, not 100% related to it. It's a different kind of place, and if people there hate you for some reason, then it can be an awful place. :(

As for logs, it is good to remember that if someone can see it, they can log it. Forever. And you have no control. This has been true for as long as computers have been around. Sometimes sharing logs can be done really hurtfully (which I think shows a distinct lack of class), but often it's just benign. Like most things, it depends.
posted by beth at 5:15 AM on July 2, 2004

[07:53] ‹quonsar› stavros! stavros! stavros

That's more like it, by gum!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:19 AM on July 2, 2004

After having shot the shit real-time made nasty remarks about anyone who wasn't in the room with some of my least favourite vast-right-wing-conspiracy-types in #mefi, I'm much more tolerant of their positions and posts

I never had much opinion about #mefi except that it wasn't for me, but this whole discussion certainly brings me closer to agreeing that #mefi is bad for MetaFilter. Yeah, it "brings people together" -- just like bullying weaker kids brings together playground bullies who might otherwise be attacking each other.

I think #mefi Guantanamo is somewhat orthogonal to MetaFilter America, not 100% related to it. It's a different kind of place, and if people there hate you for some reason, then it can be an awful place.
posted by languagehat at 6:47 AM on July 2, 2004

Maybe the y2karl log gave people the wrong impression about #mefi. We don't actually make nasty remarks about people all that much. The y2karl log is 267kb, the whole #mefi log it was cut from is over 60megs. Everyone is welcome on #mefi, especially if they keep their opinions on controversial subjects to themselves. The y2karl log also shows that even though a lot of people might not like y2karl, he was not driven out of #mefi.
posted by lazy-ville at 7:44 AM on July 2, 2004

Hey, something good has come out of this. Last night I had my first lucid dream in a year or so, and cute little kittens were the cue that I was dreaming.

Coincidence? I think not. So, thanks y2karl and lazy-ville.
posted by soyjoy at 7:53 AM on July 2, 2004

languagehat, I think you're overestimating the level of personal animosity that exhibits itself in #mefi. I don't know if you ever visit; I don't think I've ever seen you there. The worst thing I can say about it, however, is that it's a great time-waster. The vast majority of conversation centers around attempts to be witty and entertaining. The amount of real bitching about happenings on MeFi proper is vanishingly small. The tone of the room is far more friendly and laid-back than anything here.

What lazy-ville says.
posted by deadcowdan at 9:00 AM on July 2, 2004

And yet this whole thread would not exist had not lazy-ville posted the log. I wouldn't have linked lazy-ville's kitty picture if he hadn't posted the log because I would have not known about lazyville's little stash, and, hence, the kitty picture.

For me, it's a right of privacy issue--I had no idea people could, let alone would, print what you said in #mefi without asking. lazy-ville decided to show me--what? That he could print everything said about or by me ? Fine, you can leave the shit up about what people said about me but don't quote me. What is so hard to understand about that ? Sure, you can do it--but why ignore the fact you are intentionally and, in the case at hand, maliciously violating someone else's privacy when you do it.

No, I wasn't driven out of #mefi. I simply won't go there because people choose to do things like what lazy-ville--egged on by filmgoerjuan--did with what I had said in #mefi. I don't want to get to know people in a convivial setting when I know beforehand that they can't be trusted. There's no point in writing anything that someone is going, on a whim, to post later for whatever petty reason. What anyone can get about #mefi from this is you have a group of people there who can't be trusted.

I mean, your ISP can now legally read your email--should that be allowed to stand ?

These laws were drafted before e-mail emerged as a form of mass communication, so there is some ambiguity in how to apply them. But as the dissenting judge on the appellate panel noted, his two colleagues interpreted the wiretap statute far too narrowly. What's more, their analysis was predicated on the bizarre notion that our e-mail notes are not in transit once we send them, but in storage with an intermediary. The same logic would suggest that the postal service can read your letters while they are in "storage."

The New York Times doesn't think so. Neither do I.

Honestly, I think #mefi *cough* riffola *cough* should agree on a policy about this--members should not post what people have written without asking them before--note the before, angrymodem--posting it. Ban anyone who violates this rule.

If not, post something to the effect that it can and probably will be done as part of the #mefi start up screen. It's not a given, it should not be assumed that people know this can be done and it should not be condoned just because it can be done. It's simply not ethical to repost what people have said in IRC without their permission just because it is technically possible.
posted by y2karl at 9:57 AM on July 2, 2004

I am reminded of all the times that y2karl chastised me (and others) for being longwinded while defending myself (or other self-others-uh-whatever) against charges of being a doody-head, and I am amused.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:05 AM on July 2, 2004

[09:57] ‹y2karl› It's simply not ethical to repost what people have said in IRC without their permission just because it is technically possible.

[10:59] ‹quonsar› you can tell the quality of the artist by his smock. smock! smock! smock!
posted by quonsar at 11:03 AM on July 2, 2004

All I am saying is that the above sentence should be in bold on the MetaFilter wiki IRC page. People do not know these things. This was not common knowledge among the membership here before recently, I suspect.

Karl, stop using the fact that *you* didn't know this as proof of your *opinion* that it is not common knowledge.

Honestly, I think #mefi *cough* riffola *cough* should agree on a policy about this

riffola doesn't run #mefi, in fact, he's no longer an op there either. If you want to bitch about this issue to somebody, contact the guy who runs the #mefi server directly.

You can even get your sidekick Sancho Panza to draft up a nasty e-mail on the subject if you think it will do any good.

Besides, didn't we hash out all this #mefi stuff before?
posted by filmgoerjuan at 11:12 AM on July 2, 2004

Besides, didn't we hash out all this #mefi stuff before?

Evidently not. Like I said above, none of this would be here if you guys didn't go braindead with the malice in the first place.

Well, we'll show him!

And, in the process, you showed everyone. Great PR for you.

Some mentality you got going there. #mefi's collective IQ=average IQ of membership divided by the number of members online, evidently. The sum is less than the parts.

I do have to thank lazy-ville for doing the grown up thing, however. Finally. Now, we can leave it rest, I hope.
posted by y2karl at 2:26 PM on July 2, 2004

You know, you could've just asked politely, instead of bringing Rupert The Cat into this.
posted by lazy-ville at 3:17 PM on July 2, 2004

...none of this would be here if you guys didn't go braindead with the malice in the first place

...Some mentality you got going there. #mefi's collective IQ=average IQ of membership divided by the number of members online, evidently

Way to take the high road, y2karl. You are one classy fellow.

We get it, you don't like #mefi...so don't go there. Why you feel the need to continually piss on #mefi in MetaTalk is beyond me...it's become as tiresome as one of your interminable stories about your cat.
posted by filmgoerjuan at 5:57 PM on July 2, 2004

languagehat, I think you're overestimating the level of personal animosity that exhibits itself in #mefi.

I'm perfectly prepared to believe that. I was just going by what was posted, which wasn't a good advertisement. (I was there once, briefly; it seemed perfectly pleasant, but not my kind of thing. I prefer the slower back-and-forth here, where I can think about what I want to say or whether I even want to say it. And I certainly wasn't aware that it was all archived; it makes sense now that it's explained, but that makes me even less interested in participating. Who wants to blurt things out for posterity?)
posted by languagehat at 7:47 AM on July 3, 2004

There isn't a systematic process to archive #mefi - that is prohibited by the server's administrator. Despite that, most IRC clients keep a record of recent comments while you are logged in. The stuff we keep seeing posted onto metafilter is most likely from various people's private logs.

This is an example of a more general problem of digital communications. With all of the caches and record keeping systems around, anything you communicate digitally is likely to hang around longer than you expect, and in unexpected locations. This is the flip side of information wanting to be free. ALL of it wants to be free, not just the stuff that we want.
posted by Kwantsar at 10:18 AM on July 3, 2004

It's hard to stop anyone from logging things said in IRC or even IM, most clients by default log things, especially Trillian. I think mIRC does it by default too, not sure. So always assume all your IRC/IM/chat heck even SMS & MMS are being logged.

I don't think #mefi logs get posted online too often, the only time they are brought up is if it was a case where someone was causing trouble and the log was needed by an op to figure out what course of action to take, or if something really interesting happens. A classic case of needing logs was the ripper incident where some kid ODed on some other IRC channel and holloway posted about it on MeFi proper and linked to #mefi as the source of information using via, I needed the logs to get rid of some annoyances that found the channel and started to fill it with noise.

As for it being a way to bitch about people posting on MeFi proper, I think you give yourself too much credit to think people would gather to bitch about you. If you make a post or comment that someone in #mefi finds stupid, it might be possible they might link to it to say "Ok that's just silly" or something along that line, but don't take that as people in #mefi being there solely to bitch about people they don't like on MeFi.

You can ask ParisParamus, sorry Paris, about how little everyone in #mefi talks about MeFi, Paris always wanted us to mostly discuss things happening on MeFi, and the rest of us really never wanted to do that. If you spend a day or two actually conversing you'll figure out that #mefi has frankly very little to do with MetaFilter most of the time, it just so happens that it's a place where people on MetaFilter gather to chat with each other, and it's got the seal of approval by mathowie and run by a chrish, friend of Matt, and fellow MeFi member.

quonsar to many of you might appear like an odd guy but to everyone who has chatted with him in #mefi, he is a sweetheart. Steve_At_Linwood might make some of you roll your eyes, but when you talk to him in #mefi you realise that there is more to him than his political opinions, he's actually a very sweet and funny guy.

Think of #mefi as a MetaFilter meetup that's happening just about all the time, if you've been to a meetup you'd know that people don't really discuss MetaFilter there, similarly there are far more things to talk about than just MetaFilter in #mefi.
posted by riffola at 3:21 PM on July 3, 2004

/me pats riffola's head.
posted by quonsar at 5:30 PM on July 3, 2004

/me slips riffola a tenner for sticking up for us.
posted by dg at 6:39 AM on July 4, 2004

Man oh man, did I not miss this sort of MeTa thread while I was on vacation.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:33 PM on July 4, 2004

What, in that it's not about you?

/me heads back to the clubhouse for some high fives
posted by filmgoerjuan at 7:35 PM on July 4, 2004

/me rolls eyes, shrugs
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:01 PM on July 4, 2004