something interesting to read December 8, 2004 11:26 AM   Subscribe

This doesn't belong in the green, but it's something interesting to read.
posted by FunkyHelix to Etiquette/Policy at 11:26 AM (69 comments total)

A mefi hat trick.
posted by timeistight at 11:40 AM on December 8, 2004


The oppressive white male corporate penisocracy has struck again: the thread's been deleted.
posted by dhoyt at 11:57 AM on December 8, 2004


Gone now, and it's a pity. SpaceCadet actually posted that sexism was wrong, whether it was against men or women, and I was all ready to run to the window to check out the flying pigs.
posted by clever sheep at 12:00 PM on December 8, 2004


I, for one, welcome the deletion of that thread.
posted by papercake at 12:02 PM on December 8, 2004


God, that thread was a trip.

Maybe I should write up a post on 1st, 2nd, 3rd wave feminisms. Then we can debate the fun stuff. Like the essentialist argument for gender constructions vs the constructivist argument against gender roles; the problematic discourse between affirmative action, self-empowerment, and the empowerment of self-identification; and perhaps even whether or not heterosexual sex is, in fact, always rape.

Them's some good arguments to have, they is. But it's not really mefi, is it? Nevermind. I'll go find a ball-game on albinoblacksheep and post it instead. You see, you have to navigate the ball around the pins in a weird flash game [plugin required] that is only available at the NYT [rr] until you form a community of like-minded websurfers [tolerance of inanity required]. With boobies!

I'm not derailing this thread, am I? Seriously, folks, gender is complicated, jokes are stupid, and as long as we don't all post pictures we're doing fine.
posted by metaculpa at 12:03 PM on December 8, 2004


Only because you made yourself look silly, papercake. (So did I, but I don't mind.)

It's too bad it's gone, since a number of people made good points about a less than wonderful aspect of MeFi. I know it didn't belong in AskMe, but it is sad to see useful things disappear.
posted by dame at 12:04 PM on December 8, 2004


I'm sorry, Anna (agregoli). Some of us take pains to limit our boyzone tendencies, and even try to recruit more wimmins to MeFi. I recently made a fervent pitch to an eclectic, intelligent Canuckle lady, who would have increased the MeFi ratio more favorably towards women, Canadians, and smart non-trolls all in one stroke ;-)

Hope you stick around.
posted by Shane at 12:06 PM on December 8, 2004


dame: yeah, that was a little humor there.

I'm surprised it was deleted. I suppose the reasoning was that it wasn't an appropriate AskMe topic. Still, it's too bad, since it is a conversation that apparently should be had.
posted by papercake at 12:14 PM on December 8, 2004


What a fucking waste.

Nice to see questions about what breed a cartoon dog is make the cut but whether or not Mefi is sexist don't.

Sorry, but it sucks that matt finally comments on the boyzone question and this is his answer.
posted by dobbs at 12:15 PM on December 8, 2004


It's possible, dobbs, that his comment was on the place of the question, and not its content or that of the answers, isn't it?
posted by kenko at 12:17 PM on December 8, 2004


i thought it was a good thread.
metaculpa - or we just try, you know, not to be so sexist?
posted by andrew cooke at 12:19 PM on December 8, 2004


But we still have you, dobbs. So all is well.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:19 PM on December 8, 2004


is it lost completely or could it be moved to meta?
posted by andrew cooke at 12:19 PM on December 8, 2004


That'd be cool, too, andrew. And probably less pretentious of me.
Is it odd that this newbie posts more in meta than mefi?
posted by metaculpa at 12:25 PM on December 8, 2004


Hey, there he is! I was wondering when you were going to pop up, Bligh. How's the holiday season treating you? :>
posted by dobbs at 12:25 PM on December 8, 2004


Dammit. I miss everything.
posted by sciurus at 12:27 PM on December 8, 2004


What? That was pretty bluntly handled, Matt. Care to comment?
posted by scarabic at 12:30 PM on December 8, 2004


I thought that it was useful, why can't it be moved here? Just because it wasn't posted here in the beginning doesn't lessen its importance to the community.
posted by Juicylicious at 12:32 PM on December 8, 2004


*pins rose on dobbs*
posted by jonmc at 12:36 PM on December 8, 2004


Dammit. I miss everything.

Actually, you didn't miss much. There were Allegations of Misogyny!, followed by Claims of Whining!, then Debates About Feminism!, and finally a bunch of stuff about jonmc's posting style.
posted by pardonyou? at 12:37 PM on December 8, 2004


Couldn't resist the opportunity to tweak you, dobbs. Sorry.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:37 PM on December 8, 2004


Sorry, but it sucks that matt finally comments on the boyzone question and this is his answer.

Why does Matt have to comment on anything? This is why a self-governing community is better than a monarchy. Matt can't be everything to everyone. Stop looking to him for every answer.
posted by jpoulos at 12:38 PM on December 8, 2004


SpaceCadet actually posted that sexism was wrong

Actually, I've been saying that all along, but some people tend to tune out when it's anything to do with sexism targeted at males.
posted by SpaceCadet at 12:48 PM on December 8, 2004


I'm torn.

On one hand, I do find the "we're all guys here" tone that sometimes overtakes this community extraordinarily annoying.

(I'm also not crazy about the "we're all white", "we're all in the US", "we're all middle-class college-educated professionals" tone, but as I am a white US middle-class college-educated professional myself, I might very well be just another part of those particular problems. I know I'm not part of the "we're all Democrats" problem, because I'm not one.)

On the other hand, I believe very strongly that the Green is not the place for philosophical discussions of MetaFilter.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:48 PM on December 8, 2004


And, SpaceCadet, other people tend to tune out when it's anything to do with sexism targeted at women and girls. Your point? It shouldn't be a race to the bottom, or a competition to see who has suffered the most.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:50 PM on December 8, 2004


Actually, SpaceCadet, Sidhedevil is right on point. I was agog over your including women in your "sexism is wrong" statement. Men-as-victim is nothing new from you.

Ah well. It was probably a typo anyway.
posted by clever sheep at 12:59 PM on December 8, 2004


women seem to prefer hanging out on their own blogs, such as xanga or live journal, where they can control who has access to and who can comment on what they post there ... it seems to be a very different scene and nasty people don't last too long ...

i suspect the sexism they encounter elsewhere is part of the reason they do this
posted by pyramid termite at 1:05 PM on December 8, 2004


What? That was pretty bluntly handled, Matt. Care to comment?
posted by scarabic at 12:30 PM PST on December 8


If you add a rascist angle, you could post that as your 81st question to Ask Metafilter.
posted by orange clock at 1:06 PM on December 8, 2004


If you add a rascist angle, you could post that as your 81st question to Ask Metafilter.

Wow. Talk about OT. This is at least the second time you've commented in inappropriate threads about Scarabic's Ask posting history. Perhaps you should start a MeTa thread if you really think it's that important. Instead of drawing attention to his reputation, which seems to be your point (if you have one), you're merely creating one for yourself.
posted by dobbs at 1:12 PM on December 8, 2004


What? That was pretty bluntly handled, Matt. Care to comment?

Why does Matt have to comment on anything? This is why a self-governing community is better than a monarchy. Matt can't be everything to everyone. Stop looking to him for every answer.

Is it me, or did anyone else hear echoes of existential questions about God's role in man's affairs in these comments?

Hey, you got your creepy in my funny!
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 1:21 PM on December 8, 2004


Why does Matt have to comment on anything?

Because he just deleted our entire conversation.

This is why a self-governing community is better than a monarchy.

So which are we? Seems like a monarchy at the moment.

Matt can't be everything to everyone. Stop looking to him for every answer.

We were in the midst of hashing out some self-governing issues when he suddenly pulled the plug. We can't leave him out of the discussion if he won't stay out of it himself.

YO MATT. WHAT IS THE DEAL, MAN?
posted by scarabic at 1:22 PM on December 8, 2004


jokes are stupid

Jokes are the only thing keeping us from suffocating on our own stink, sir.
posted by jonmc at 1:29 PM on December 8, 2004


From the original AskMe question:

-does anyone else feel things have gotten, or have always been, too mysogynistic on here?

Are polls considered appropriate AskMe questions? Should they? Perhaps the deletion was #1's response.

I do wish the gray/green used the same deletion system as the blue does, but I'm sure that's already on Matt's mind, and I'm all out of pony requests for the year anyway.
posted by DaShiv at 1:31 PM on December 8, 2004


Because he just deleted our entire conversation.

it was pointed out several times in the thread that ask.mefi was the wrong place for that topic. That people kept conversing long after it should've been assumed that the thread was gonna die should be held against matt?
posted by GeekAnimator at 1:44 PM on December 8, 2004


Okay it wasn't appropriate. But sometimes you bend the rules to let something good but not official stand. I'm sure it's happened before, yet here it was shut down. And that's pretty screwy.
posted by dame at 1:44 PM on December 8, 2004


I didn't say jokes are bad, kind sir.

But jokes are stupid,
unless they're funny jokes,
in which case they're smart.
But I wouldn't even say that stupid is bad.
I like stupid...
hey, Lost is on tonight! Sweet!

But stupid may not be what Mefi is about.
(It's really about nooBs posting on MeTa.)
posted by metaculpa at 1:48 PM on December 8, 2004


YO MATT. WHAT IS THE DEAL, MAN?

scarabic, it works better if you format it like this:

YO MATT.
WHAT IS.
THE DEAL.
MAN?

posted by pardonyou? at 1:55 PM on December 8, 2004


Seriously, folks, gender is complicated, jokes are stupid, and as long as we don't all post pictures we're doing fine.

Actually, SpaceCadet, Sidhedevil is right on point. I was agog over your including women in your "sexism is wrong" statement. Men-as-victim is nothing new from you.

Oh yeah, I remember! SpaceCadet is the divorcee guy. Space Coyote is a cool guy from Canada. Coyote, if this ever happens to you:



...remind of this, okay?
posted by Shane at 2:01 PM on December 8, 2004


I agree with the fact that it didn't belong in the Green. There are several solutions to that problem. The real rub here is that the issue is a legitimate one, and, as someone pointed out, all Matt has contributed to this conversation about it is iron-fisted enforcement of AskMe guidelines, which, for the sake of one thread, is a minor technicality next the issue of sexism on the site. While I frequently champion AskMe guidelines as much as anyone, there is another issue here, and an important one. Matt appears to have missed that fact, or not to care, neither of which seems characteristic for him.

If this doesn't even merit *a word or two,* then I don't know what. Even the most frivolous deleted front page post gets that much.
posted by scarabic at 2:18 PM on December 8, 2004


If it belongs in the grey, and we're reading this in the grey, why not take the opportunity to expand on the original discussion here? The charter for AskMetaFilter is very clear and the original post was in the wrong place. Regardless of how enlightening the conversation may have been it was doomed from the beginning.

I think it's an interesting issue and was enjoying the thread -- I would much rather read more along those lines than a discussion of user #1's moderation technique.
posted by cedar at 2:27 PM on December 8, 2004


Please go drink a beer or write a novel or something.

IJAWS

(It's Just A Website Stupid)
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 2:29 PM on December 8, 2004


YO MATT.
WHAT IS.
THE DEAL.
MAN?


I'm sorry I can't easily move conversations from one place to the next (it's no small feat), but if I could, I would have slid it all over to here.

Go ahead and have the boyzone conversation, it's an important one, and I do hate it when I get an email every now and then from a female contributor here saying things are too aggressive and they're leaving. It breaks my heart.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:31 PM on December 8, 2004


Uhm, I could suggest that someone who read the question repost it here in the gray and see what happens, but that would detract from the self interested calls for the owner to justify what he owns ... so I won't.

On preview, there's your okey-dokey, but for the sake of us who didn't get to read SpaceCadet's mewlings, could someoine please reframe the question?
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:35 PM on December 8, 2004


Fair enough, Uno.

My notes from the discussion (which I won't dig into my cache to paste here in entirety):

1) Some posts feel pretty sexist to some female members
2) Maybe they should call them out more so Matt can deal with them
3) Maybe some people are over-sensitive
4) Yes, sexism actually exists

Carry on.
posted by scarabic at 2:38 PM on December 8, 2004


I would have saved the conversation and posted parts or all of it had I known it was to be deleted. I figured it wouldn't even though it was in the wrong place since AskMe threads go off the front page so fast anyway.
posted by agregoli at 2:38 PM on December 8, 2004


It breaks my heart.

What are you , a woman?
posted by jonson at 2:41 PM on December 8, 2004


Matt, I understand why you deleted it. But I would have eagerly heard your thoughts on the matter. I would post it again here, but I don't think I can stand two threads with the same vitrol in one day.
posted by agregoli at 2:47 PM on December 8, 2004


I know I'm not part of the "we're all Democrats" problem, because I'm not one

Neither am I, not being from the United States. I guess it's not a problem after all.
posted by The God Complex at 2:49 PM on December 8, 2004


Well, agregoli, maybe we can just earmark the whole thing for future discussion. Perhaps if one of us just starts it back up in the form of a callout next time a specific thread smacks of too much cock, it will be more productive. Today's thread was marred not only by the AskMe misplacement, but also the highly personal nature of your decision whether or not to leave. When we do this again, let's do it right, keep it on target, and not make it personal. Perhaps we can learn something from today and make the best of this deletion.

What do you think?
posted by scarabic at 2:54 PM on December 8, 2004


On preview, there's your okey-dokey, but for the sake of us who didn't get to read SpaceCadet's mewlings, could someoine please reframe the question?

Huh? I actually agreed with agregoli saying sexism dressed up as jokes is not funny (female/male targets), and I said misandry is as common as misogyny in this world as we are all liable to having hateful thoughts to the opposite gender, or anyone for that matter - it's really down to the individual - and I admitted they do manifest themselves in different ways. I don't think that's a very controversial point of view (though of course this is MeFi).
posted by SpaceCadet at 3:02 PM on December 8, 2004


Below is sort of a summary of what I tried to say in the other thread.

Scarabic, it will still be vitriolic then. The problem, the reason some people don't bring it up, is that they are inevitably jumped on and branded oversensitive. I think this is because:

1. There are plenty of small unwelcome-making comments that, on their own, aren't much. Like the whole "Girl blood is gross" response when there were a few menstrual threads. Or "jokes" that some find rude.

2. Because of this, when something kinda shitty comes up, it feels a lot worse.

3. When someone points out this shitty thing, people who are not sensitive to the general air don't see why it's so bad.

4. Not all feminists and women agree on what is bad. Combined with three, there emerges a sense that most people don't think it's all so bad.

5. Whoever called it out is attacked/branded oversensitive.

The bonus is that people then don't bring things up or are particularly shrill when it does come up. At least that's how it seems to me.

OP: And then dobbs told him that saying there is as much misandry in the world as misogyny is absurd. Some agreed; some did not.
posted by dame at 3:13 PM on December 8, 2004


it's really down to the individual

Right - and when we left off I was disagreeing with this point. Our culture does not provide misogyny and misandry in equal parts, not at all. I want to agree with you that in our hearts we are all born good and it comes down to individual choice, but the fact of the matter is that there is more misogyny built into our culture and practices than misandry. The simple fact that there has never been a woman president, and there is no nationally televised male beauty pageant for example, is a glaring inequity which has no end in sight. How can you say that sexism isn't systematically skewed against women overall? No one is saying that men are just more evil in their hearts. But you can't ignore the importance of patriarchy in the culture.

Scarabic, it will still be vitriolic then.


I didn't say it wouldn't. We'll deal with it. I'm just encouraging new attempts that don't come with all kinds of pointless tangents attached to them. People love to fly off on those, make a lot of noise, and miss the core point.
posted by scarabic at 3:17 PM on December 8, 2004


I'm completely in favour of making MetaFilter more welcoming to women, but does anyone but agregoli honestly find this stupid, ancient joke offensive?
posted by timeistight at 3:22 PM on December 8, 2004


Eh, I wouldn't underestimate the ability of the assembled to manufacture their own tangents at any time. But point taken.
posted by dame at 3:24 PM on December 8, 2004


What is it? Woman-friendly? I'd rate it slightly on the offensive side, but of small significance/impact. Considering how old and puerile it is, and how thin a post it was, its deletion seems a pretty uncomplicated decision to me. But as much as it breaks Matt's heart to hear female members complain, I guess keeping this post alive is more important for some reason?
posted by scarabic at 3:28 PM on December 8, 2004


My complaint with it being deleted is that, because it was in the green, different people were commenting on it than usual (not everyone was new to the discussion but many people were). And the thread wasn't just a few comments long either. It was up near 80 or something comments.

My last post in the thread was in response to (I think) Funkyhelix's comment that people who are concerned about this shoudl post more women-positive post.

My reply was that when they do:

a) make sure the linked page doesn't have pictures of the woman or four comments in someone will say "I'd hit it" and then every second comment will be about her looks.

b) make sure she's not a lesbian as people will feel it necessary to say "Lesbians are HAWT!!!"

c) make sure she doesn't wear glasses, either, as it needs to be announced that those girls are teh hot as well.

etc.

My point being that until other members start respecting the women of MeFi, making a FPP about a "woman-centered" site can often be just as disheartening as is the overall tone of the site in re: to women.

I'm completely in favour of making MetaFilter more welcoming to women, but does anyone but agregoli honestly find this stupid, ancient joke offensive?

My posts were in regards to MeFi in general. Though the joke in question may not have been super offensive to everyone, I was posting with the impression that it was simply the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.
posted by dobbs at 3:30 PM on December 8, 2004


While I sympathize with the technical nightmare it would be to move a conversation between sites, it might have been nice if we'd had 5 minutes warning of the deletion, so that somebody could cut-and-paste it onto their blog at least, or into this thread, or whatever, either for continuation or reference. I'm sure that any one of 10 people would have gladly done just that, if they'd had a chance.
posted by scarabic at 3:34 PM on December 8, 2004


Copy of original thread here, maybe minus a question or so.
posted by dasibiter at 3:45 PM on December 8, 2004


we could emulate those phone chat lines advertised on late nite tv.

LADIES POST FREE!
posted by quonsar at 4:00 PM on December 8, 2004


Only if they're hot bi babes.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:08 PM on December 8, 2004


The simple fact that there has never been a woman president

Scarabic, speak for yourself - I'm from the UK, and we've had a female prime minister.
posted by SpaceCadet at 5:26 PM on December 8, 2004


No one is saying that men are just more evil in their hearts. But you can't ignore the importance of patriarchy in the culture.

Scarabic, I merely made the claim that there is as much misandry in this world as misogyny. It manifests itself in different ways. Ultimately we can only be responsible for our own thoughts and actions.
posted by SpaceCadet at 5:31 PM on December 8, 2004


I'm from the UK, and we've had a female prime minister.

That, sir, was no woman.
posted by jpoulos at 5:36 PM on December 8, 2004


Why don't we just have some pictures of women up at the top of the blue, to make female posters feel more at home?
How about a mefi chick of the day in the side bar? We could have a little info about their personality, star sign, what gets them "in the mood", their favourite posts of all time, etc?

Just kidding.

Seriously, if it's such a big deal then just suggest the community to some females you know. Maybe the numbers will balance out and us guys will feel the scorn of a thousand female strangers everytime we post something using our male genitalia instead of typing it. I promise that I will act totally differently if mefi gets flooded with females.
Feel better? Good.
posted by Dillonlikescookies at 5:38 PM on December 8, 2004


That, sir, was no woman.

I was just about to say the same thing.

I'm not going to argue with you, SpaceCadet. If you think there's just as much misandry in the world as misogyny, then you're living inside a paper bag.
posted by scarabic at 5:51 PM on December 8, 2004


The joke? Only mildly offensive in itself, but bizarrely annoying because it presupposes that everyone reading it is not a "girl" and has some sense that "girls" are evil.

me: I know I'm not part of the "we're all Democrats" problem, because I'm not one

God Complex: Neither am I, not being from the United States. I guess it's not a problem after all.


Um, if you look at the preceding sentences, I had already discussed the '"we're all from the US" problem' and I assumed that '"we're all Democrats"' would be understood in that context.

But thanks for suggesting that I'm not aware of something that I had explicitly stated I was aware of only a few words earlier. If I were a big sexist, I would say that "this proves men don't pay attention to what women say". But I am not.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:14 PM on December 8, 2004


Nice to see questions about what breed a cartoon dog is make the cut but whether or not Mefi is sexist don't.

Criminy, dobbs. The dog question was legitimate, and within the guidelines (if poorly phrased).

Questions about Metafilter don't belong in AskMe. It's the first rule, for fuck's sake.
posted by trharlan at 7:25 PM on December 8, 2004


The LADIES POST FREE remark made me laugh.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:25 PM on December 8, 2004


I'm not going to argue with you, SpaceCadet. If you think there's just as much misandry in the world as misogyny, then you're living inside a paper bag.

Scarabic, are you stating that men are more prone to misogyny than women to misandry? Any hard evidence for this? Sounds like a lazy assumption to me. As I've said, we all are capable of hateful thoughts and intentions, and indeed can manifest such hatred in any number of different ways.

That, sir, was no woman.

Well my point was that we're not all from the USA - another assumption you've made.
posted by SpaceCadet at 3:52 AM on December 9, 2004


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