The MetaFilter community played a nice, bright part in my day today

March 1, 2005 11:15 PM

The MetaFilter community played a nice, bright part in my day today. First I woke up to find an email from another member who offered to send me a car stereo that had been sitting around in his closet for a while and would solve my iPod/car stereo problem. Best answer, indeed! During the day I scheduled a meeting with a little writing group I met via one of our own at a meetup. I'm definitely looking forward to that. Then I got pictures in my email from our own multi-talented DaShiv, of an art show I wanted to see last Friday but didn't make it to. The SF group rumbled all day about another meetup date soon, possibly when #1 is in town. I can't wait for that! Then to cap it all off, tonight I came home to find my roommate had a guest over. She recognized me and it turned out we'd been introduced at the MeFi/MoFi meetup in Berkeley. Small world!

Nothing earth shattering here, but good stuff all around. I didn't even really think twice about this stuff until just now when some said "Whatever community was once to be found here is long dead, unless you are perhaps looking for a community based on vitriol and snark.". Perhaps gd779 is kidding, or thinking of certain glory days of rapping online with old cronies now gone, and perhaps those days are over for those folks. But for me, anyway, here, now, the community is a goodly part of actual life, not just an "online" community, and certainly more than a cauldron of blind vitriol.

[this is good]
posted by scarabic to MetaFilter-Related at 11:15 PM (149 comments total)

And now you may commence tearing me a multitude of newfangled assholes until I wish I'd never said anything.

READY... SET... GO!!!

(__*-*-*__)

YEEEEAAAARRRGGH!!!!
posted by scarabic at 11:15 PM on March 1, 2005

Aieeee!!! The three-eyed monster!!!
posted by Robot Johnny at 11:18 PM on March 1, 2005

Good for you--really.

Personally, I think it's all true, good and bad. (Then again, it might be hard to pay a place this complicated a better compliment.)
posted by LairBob at 11:27 PM on March 1, 2005

Wake me up before its time to go-go.
posted by Dean Keaton at 11:29 PM on March 1, 2005

I don't think gd779 was kidding, but perhaps referring to one particularly ugly thread, and perhaps what he or she saw as a bunch of people ganging up on another user and no one stepping in to stop it or stand up to the group of people calling for her panties or asking her to look at she-males. What the fuck?

Perhaps this a symptom of the new [!] flag buttons (which several people reported using), or perhaps there is a fear that if I as user x step in here, they are going to come after me to. Either way, in this particular case, Metafilter was not as good as it was/is/could be in the future.

It's nice that Metafilter has been good to you, but I couldn't lose the bad taste all day.
posted by Quartermass at 11:41 PM on March 1, 2005

Matt came over this morning with freshly roasted gourmet coffee beans that he ground and brewed to make me the world's best cup of espresso. He also brought blood oranges and flowers from his garden. I love that guy.
posted by taz at 11:57 PM on March 1, 2005

Then I got pictures in my email from our own multi-talented DaShiv

Let me know when you've discovered any other ones aside from taking pictures under ridiculously dark situations. I'm wondering, too. :) The cops (picture #8 -- he was radioing for backup) broke up our little impromptu art festival for "assembling without a permit." Feh.

To be fair, it's much easier to turn MeFi into a "big blue room" meatspace community in places like Seattle, SF, NYC, LA, etc, compared to: Nome, Alaska; Bismark City, North Dakota; one of them foreign third-world countries like Europe; etc.
posted by DaShiv at 12:15 AM on March 2, 2005

any other ones

Well, I was thinking primarily poet but ramen chef also comes to mind. After all, I have watched you make cup o' noodles out of nothing more than pebbles, lighter fluid, and a cracker. You're also kind of a Geiger counter for on-tap Guinness :)
posted by scarabic at 12:23 AM on March 2, 2005

Damn you SF boys, flaunting your friendly little real-world network, while those of us down in the Decentralized Kingdom that is L.A. can't even get together more than once a year! I mean, jeez: where are we going to find someplace that A) is within 30 miles of all of us, and B) has decent parking? I may very well hightail it up to your neck of the Bay once of these days, so that I may take part in one of your legendary meetups/writing groups/free car stereos. Plus, I would like to see DaShiv's mad cup o' noodle skillz.
posted by scody at 12:55 AM on March 2, 2005

Blaaaaaaah! That's the last time I show you my super-secret notebook that I keep hidden beneath of my bed, scarabic. :)

scody: A true story to scare you with. I had a friend over who watched in horror as I cooked up some ramen with orange juice and Sprite. My excuse was that ramen was a little bland straight out of the package... I'm a really, really bad cook. And I've been a bachelor for far too long.

Still, I hear the NYC peeps all live in a building together and have a Joy Luck Club of their own and everything. caitlinb even tells me that their meetups are like an episode of Friends, except with more alcohol and fried Mars bars. And a shrine to quonsar. Right, guys? Guys?
posted by DaShiv at 1:30 AM on March 2, 2005

scarabic, you put the "sha" in "sha-la la laaaa!"

And I happen to agree with you.

You're also kind of a Geiger counter for on-tap Guinness

That would be a dowser's wand, no?
posted by squirrel at 1:37 AM on March 2, 2005

personally, i won't believe you till i've seen your panties.
posted by andrew cooke at 2:05 AM on March 2, 2005

WHORE!
posted by squirrel at 2:50 AM on March 2, 2005

Is there an SF meet-up anytime soon?
posted by clockzero at 3:15 AM on March 2, 2005

Yeah, there absolutlely f***ing is a sense of community.

a) The guys over at #mefi are some of the nicest bunch of people. I've never used IRC seriously before...and I find it a nice "group" party line sort of chat.

b) Blueberry needed some ibook help. Which I did. Then he sent me this uber cool photo he tool from where he lives in freakin' Kathmandu

c) Finally, I went to a meetup (after being suggested by the folks over on #mefi) and met onlyconnect and BrownPau and quite a number of other nice people.

I went to a fark meetup and it was a bunch of awkward geeks.

I went to a metafilter meetup...and the people were just nice

So, is there a community here? hell yes there is.
posted by filmgeek at 3:16 AM on March 2, 2005

I've been around when mr_crash_davis was booed. I've been around when clavdivs was booed, and it stinks. It makes the greatest site in the world lousy. The only thing that will turn this around is being upbeat and positive like we are in that locker room ... And if you think I'm going to succumb to negativity, you're wrong. You've got the wrong guy leading this team.

All the negativity in this site sucks and it stinks and it sucks. holden and chicobangs aren't walking through that door folks. Harry Hopkin's Hat isn't walking through that door. And you know what? If they did, they'd be old and grey. What is walking through those doors are young players who are going to be prone to mistakes at times until they get experience, who are going to play hard and try to post exciting stuff— and not always succeed at doing that.
posted by yerfatma at 4:55 AM on March 2, 2005

Point well made, scarabic. Also, threads are absolutely no snarkier than they were three years ago and links are up to the same standards they've ever been (both the good and the bad). Yes there was some nonsense for a while there but I think any one that left as a result... well I think it's a shame.
posted by nthdegx at 5:17 AM on March 2, 2005

here in the frigid, unpopulated outback that is michigan, panty demands are the very fabric of social cohesion.
posted by quonsar at 5:20 AM on March 2, 2005

Sounds sticky.
posted by taz at 5:34 AM on March 2, 2005

Sorry for the derail, but it's kinda on the lines of the snark you were talking about. more on u.n.owen

It's hearsay, of course. I'm just saying that maybe the suspicion was justified in that case. Maybe.

I have nothing against that poster, I'm just saying that I'd heard of her before.

And I'm glad that you had such a great Mefi-real life day, scarabic. I agree, there's plenty of good along with the bad here. And while suspicion is sometimes justified, I'd rather be taken for a ride once in a while than turn into the sort of person who doesn't trust anyone and doesn't give to anyone. Life's too short to live like that.
posted by different at 6:29 AM on March 2, 2005 [1 favorite]

"holden and chicobangs aren't walking through that door folks. Harry Hopkin's Hat isn't walking through that door. And you know what? If they did, they'd be old and grey."

That was elegiac and well put. Read in the right tone of voice, it also makes you sound like a football coach.
A win-win!
posted by NinjaPirate at 6:33 AM on March 2, 2005

And is anyone surprised that our member who knows where the bodies are buried finds that people are nice to him?!
posted by dmt at 6:48 AM on March 2, 2005

Still, I hear the NYC peeps all live in a building together and have a Joy Luck Club of their own and everything....their meetups are like an episode of Friends

Well, "drunken mob," would be a more apt description, and the more accurate TV comparison would be to Cops or perhaps Teletubbies, but otherwise, you're dead on.
posted by jonmc at 6:53 AM on March 2, 2005

Read in the right tone of voice, it also makes you sound like a football coach.

Or a basketball coach.
posted by yerfatma at 7:06 AM on March 2, 2005

Shhhhhh Scarabic. You're ruining our "Hey it's just a fuckin' website/get a life losers/MetaFilter ain't your mommy" vibe here!

Seriously though, thanks for that.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 7:07 AM on March 2, 2005

Different - where did that come from? Context please.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:13 AM on March 2, 2005

Read in the right tone of voice, it also makes you sound like a football coach.

Or a hockey coach.
posted by NinjaPirate at 7:19 AM on March 2, 2005

otherwise, you're dead on.

See, I knew I was really close.
posted by DaShiv at 7:21 AM on March 2, 2005

*waves at filmgeek*
posted by onlyconnect at 7:28 AM on March 2, 2005

Frankly, scarabic, all this goodness is in your life because you're one of the popular kids. Rather than this gloating, which just invites a bunch of yapping from the little anklebiter dogs, I suggest you quietly enjoy the love.
posted by majick at 7:46 AM on March 2, 2005

cunninglinguist - perfectly reasonable question, sorry that it didn't occur to me to volunteer the info before.

I don't know any of the people concerned, either irl or on the Internet (I don't even live in North America.) I have a LiveJournal, largely as a procrastination tool, and was browsing one day last year and came across that entry (and a similar entry from earlier in that particular LJ - I just found it at random really.) It stuck in my mind for some reason. I guess I just found it interesting.

I hadn't looked at MeTa for a few days but an hour or so ago I read the relevant threads (procrastinating again!) By the time I was halfway through I thought that the story rang a bell. I checked u.n.owen's user page and saw her email addy, which confirmed my suspicion. (Of course later on she freely gave her full name, and another user posted u.n.owen's former livejournal profile.

I really hesitated about posting the link, as I have no way of knowing what's true and what's not. I just decided in the end that it was worth putting out there. At least this way u.n.owen has a chance to present her own side of the story if she so wishes. The link I posted could just as easily be a heap of bs as u.n.owen's stories could be - that's the thing about the Net, you can't trust anyone!
posted by different at 7:52 AM on March 2, 2005

"...that's the thing about the Net, you can't trust anyone!"

And yet people offer to send other people their stereos. Suckers.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:56 AM on March 2, 2005

the little anklebiter dogs

*runs in circles yapping furiously*
posted by quonsar at 8:01 AM on March 2, 2005

Metafilter Blessings:

1. T r a c y decided I needed my own web site. She got me started AND is hosting my blog.

2. The MeFiSwap led to several hours of married musical nuttiness as my husband and I put worked together to mix and burn and then write the liner notes.

3. Whoever posted Go Fug Yourself Thank you so very, very much.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:02 AM on March 2, 2005

"...that's the thing about the Net, you can't trust anyone!"

And yet people offer to send other people their stereos. Suckers.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't trust anyone (read my earlier comment), just that you can't assume that anything in particular is true. I repeat: And while suspicion is sometimes justified, I'd rather be taken for a ride once in a while than turn into the sort of person who doesn't trust anyone and doesn't give to anyone. Life's too short to live like that.

posted by different at 8:05 AM on March 2, 2005

At least this way u.n.owen has a chance to present her own side of the story if she so wishes.

That'll be fun. We'll need three of these 'good news about metafilter' posts by the time that one's finished. Scarabic, you have renewed my faith in humanity, that is unless my roommate took the last pudding pop.
posted by Arch Stanton at 8:21 AM on March 2, 2005

I don't think we talk about UN Owen enough.
posted by Stynxno at 8:24 AM on March 2, 2005

We'll need three of these 'good news about metafilter' posts by the time that one's finished.

You're probably right. I regret posting that link already.
posted by different at 8:30 AM on March 2, 2005

u.n. owen was the subject of previous speculation offsite, which is probably a reason why she was treated so skeptically. She is clearly not a Kaycee Nicole, but she is equally clearly a chronic liar and not worthy of the defense some here have offered. If anything can be gleaned about the community by the episode, it is that some people here are nice to the point of being suckers, and some people are skeptical to the point of being jerks.

Kind of like real life.
posted by norm at 8:32 AM on March 2, 2005

What episode?
posted by iconomy at 8:40 AM on March 2, 2005

This episode.

Continued here.

It takes a strong stomach on all sides to read through it.
posted by OmieWise at 8:42 AM on March 2, 2005

You know, I keep coming back here for two reasons:

1. Reading Metafilter makes me smarter. I guest lectured yesterday in a class on risk discourse in public health (3 hour class - yikes!), and was able to fill my lecture with so many references, examples and whatnot, mostly from shit I read here.

2. Frequently, I laugh out loud reading the comments.
Ex. In the ask thread yesterday on underwear and pj's, this comment struck me as hilarious

You know whose advice I'm not taking on the subject of whether or not to wear underwear? spicynuts'
posted by MarkAnd at 8:09 AM PST on March 1 [!]

I have a lot of love for this community.
posted by Quartermass at 8:43 AM on March 2, 2005

No episode, iconomy. Never happened. la la la LA!

scarabic: "But for me, anyway, here, now, the community is a goodly part of actual life, not just an "online" community, and certainly more than a cauldron of blind vitriol."

Of course! Our cauldron of vitriol HAS A THOUSAND EYES!

posted by koeselitz at 8:45 AM on March 2, 2005

"She is clearly not a Kaycee Nicole, but she is equally clearly a chronic liar and not worthy of the defense some here have offered."

I wasn't defending her.

My view on this episode is the same as my view on the Kaycee Nicole episode. It's understandable and human nature for people to feel very hurt when they think they've been played for suckers. And, having experienced this in the past, it's understandable for them to be cynical and skittish. But that these are such huge issues for many people demonstrates that their decision to trust or to be generous is probably more about themselves and an attempt to be "needed" than it is genuine generosity.

There are no guarantees. We think we know scarabic much better than we know u. n. owen but that doesn't really amount to much. Most of us have been conned and ill-treated by people we've known very well, perhaps even by family. In fact, most real con artists and "users" appear to be very trustworthy—whether u. n. owen is or not, she's done a piss poor job of appearing to be. People who appear as she has are not the biggest risks. People who appear as scarabic has are the biggest risks.

So if your emotional relationship with helping other people is all about bolstering your own sense of importance—bolstering your own sense of being connected to other people—then you're likely heading for repeated hurt and disappointment. On the other hand, if you're charitable because a) you know that most people aren't con-artists and, b) you know that the possibility of actually helping someone is preferable to no possibility of helping them at all, then you give when you decide to give, you don't hold other people emotionally hostage to your ostentatious generosity, and you don't make it all about you and your trust and your risk. You do what you can do and you shrug and move along. Sometimes the guy on the street will spend the $10 you give him on cheap booze. Other times he'll spend it on food. If you are obsessed about which is the case, either before the fact or after the fact, then what you're really doing is selfishly working through your own issues regarding trust behind the facade of generosity (or supposedly principled lack thereof).
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:04 AM on March 2, 2005

Could you summarize that a bit?
posted by angry modem at 9:10 AM on March 2, 2005

I don't think we have enough pompous asshole posts in this thread.
posted by Stynxno at 9:14 AM on March 2, 2005

Sometimes the guy on the street will spend the $10 you give him on cheap booze.

Giving money to un owen is more productive than giving it to a homeless person. She's definitely going to spend it on food.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:19 AM on March 2, 2005 [1 favorite]

Frankly, scarabic, all this goodness is in your life because you're one of the popular kids. Rather than this gloating, which just invites a bunch of yapping from the little anklebiter dogs, I suggest you quietly enjoy the love.

majick - a perspective much more easily supported by the facts is that I have more goodness in my life because I show up to meetups. DOH!!!
posted by scarabic at 9:21 AM on March 2, 2005

and when you finally drag it to one, I'm kicking your ass for that "gloating" comment ;)
posted by scarabic at 9:22 AM on March 2, 2005

OK, Stynxno, here's one more, then.

The stereo and speakers are on their way to scarabic.

I've never met scarabic. I've read what he's said here, and have exchanged two or three emails with him, but that's it. He's said he'd help with postage, but I sent the package without any guarantees that he'll reimburse me, or that he won't just turn around and sell it on eBay.

Why? Because I want MetaFilter to be that kind of place, damnit.

I hate hate hate it when "internet friendships" turn out to be only that, when it becomes clear that someone with whom I've shared my thoughts and feelings turns out to not really give a damn outside of this medium. I don't really have any assurance at all that this exchange with scarabic will be any different, but I want it to be different, and I'm willing to risk $15.75 for that.
posted by MrMoonPie at 9:25 AM on March 2, 2005

that's the only thing to make me giggle all the live long day, bravo Mayor
posted by NinjaPirate at 9:27 AM on March 2, 2005

If the u.n. owen shite continues any further here I'm going to email Matt and request this thread be closed and/or deleted.
posted by scarabic at 9:28 AM on March 2, 2005

Matt, can we have a new pony -- unowen.metafilter.com ?
posted by matteo at 9:29 AM on March 2, 2005

Can we please stop turning this thread into yet another un owen thread? Pretty please with sugar on top?
posted by aspo at 9:29 AM on March 2, 2005

Damn I should have looked at the preview.
posted by aspo at 9:30 AM on March 2, 2005

Mr Moon Pie: um. try again. that was pompous or asshole. hell, that almost seemed decent and good natured.

i think you can do better.
posted by Stynxno at 9:33 AM on March 2, 2005

THAT WAS NOT...
oi.
posted by Stynxno at 9:34 AM on March 2, 2005

Holy crap. Thanks for the links, OmieWise. I'm putting my head back in the sand now.
posted by iconomy at 9:44 AM on March 2, 2005

EB = Eternal Blather.
Why use 3 lines when 20 will do.
posted by adamvasco at 9:51 AM on March 2, 2005

Sometimes the guy on the street will spend the $10 you give him on cheap booze. Other times he'll spend it on food. If you are obsessed about which is the case, either before the fact or after the fact, then what you're really doing is selfishly working through your own issues regarding trust behind the facade of generosity

Or maybe you just want to make sure the limited help you can give goes to someone who is going to use it wisely? Paying for someone's alcoholism does not help them or the next guy down the street who you don't have money to give to anymore.

What I read you as saying is that we should just give blindly because we might do some good, and that if we are cautious and skeptical about giving because we want to be sure our gift will do some good, we are somehow broken or selfish. I couldn't disagree more.
posted by daveadams at 10:02 AM on March 2, 2005

Hey Quonsar, you still want owen to send you her panties? it costs extra to ship freight.
posted by bob sarabia at 10:13 AM on March 2, 2005

It's all sunshine and rainbows until Crowd decides to turn on you.

"It isn't fair, it isn't right," Mrs. Hutchinson screamed, and then they were upon her.
posted by darukaru at 10:20 AM on March 2, 2005

Have MeFi users forgotten there are real people behind the aliases?

WTF is with the fat jokes? Is the goal now to be the most cruel user on MeFi?
posted by five fresh fish at 10:24 AM on March 2, 2005

I am thoroughly disgusted by all the UN Owen "Cash for Panties" scandal threads on MeTa recently and would very much like to see Quonsar Anan step down from the position pending an investigation.
posted by longbaugh at 10:26 AM on March 2, 2005

"Have MeFi users forgotten there are real people behind the aliases?"

I wouldn't be so sure of that -- it's becoming apparent that there are also one, or more, constructs behind some aliases.
posted by cedar at 10:32 AM on March 2, 2005

fff, the fat jokes because she has always postured as a small girl. Check out her prior pathological lies. The best is her thing about "OMG celebrities have gone out with me!!" Well, you've all been punk'd. longbaugh, sorry to drag you into the discussion, but you were supposed to be an example of how normal people in more dire situations have tact, pride, and prudence not to abuse or manipulate the kindness of strangers. scarabic, sorry to shite on your thread, but it was long-ago derailed. Should someone post a follow-up to the latest SaveKaryn posturer to keep this out of the thread, or is it unproductive/too late?
posted by naxosaxur at 10:33 AM on March 2, 2005

that's some creative photography there.
posted by bob sarabia at 10:44 AM on March 2, 2005

Re: Cash for panties. unowen did say she was up for sexual favors
pRonfilter - best in email - no?
posted by adamvasco at 10:48 AM on March 2, 2005

Why? Because I want MetaFilter to be that kind of place, damnit

mr. moon pie, mother teresa aspired to emulate thy saintliness. but she'd probably not have stated precisely what it cost her.
posted by quonsar at 10:58 AM on March 2, 2005

[this is no longer good]
posted by sad_otter at 10:58 AM on March 2, 2005

Stop it. Just fucking stop it.

Our u.n.owen is obviously a deeply troubled young lady and picking on someone with weight or mental health issues says far more about you than it does about her.

We're better than this.
posted by cedar at 11:01 AM on March 2, 2005

scarabic-
I like what you posted, and I like MeFi for many of the same reasons. I haven't been around here for as long, nor have I been to any meetups or anything, but I like many of the people I have interacted with here. I've tried recipes, gotten advice, had an email chat or two with people. It can be a very good place to be.

I agree with cedar and fff. Please stop with the unowen stuff. There was a point where it seemed as if people were up in arms because they might be getting bilked. Now it seems much more gratuitous and more about feeling good that you were an asshole before. If the issue is that someone somehow monopolized our time and attentions with something that did not actually require that time or those attentions, I fail to see how continuing to pile on fixes the issue.

And yes, there is a difference between debunking and being an asshole.
posted by OmieWise at 11:10 AM on March 2, 2005

And ummm more good things have happened to me. Many many more Much goody goodness.

Much much much ~You are getting sleepy...sleepy.....sleepy. You are deeply asleep. When I snap my fingers you will awake, refreshed, with no memory at all about u.n.owen~ so good so funny so muchimuchness available to me as a Metafilter reader. Lovely Metafilter.

****SNAP****
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:15 AM on March 2, 2005

God, it is so fucking sad how this got derailed.

In an attempt to bring it back, I present you with 5 Reasons Why Amanda Loves Metafilter:

- When I housesat in DC, we planned a meetup. People actually came. And were nice! Really nice!
- Two of those people were so nice that they found out that I wasn't doing anything on New Year's Day and they invited me to their brunch. Where I met more nice people!
- When I was in Dallas, matteo came into town and he too was NICE! (And a hottie, to boot!)
- I was playing Kingdom of Loathing a while back when I into former MeFite Zach'sMind. I had missed that guy and there he was!
- Ask is my favorite website on teh interweb. Seriously. It has community, I learn something new everyday and damn it, people are funny.
posted by amandaudoff at 11:30 AM on March 2, 2005

I'm glad scarabic & others are able to translate the good parts of MeFi into good things in their offline life. I'm envious in a good way, but my relative isolation from many other MeFites and my low profile on the boards combine to make that a challenge for me.

This is something I've been stewing on recently and I'm trying to think of ways that those of us that are more far-flung can benefit in some similar ways. So thank you, scarabic, for reminding us that positive does come out of this commmunity. I'll use your testimonial as inspiration for my own aspirations.

Re: scarabic's positive experiences owing to his high profile - Well it sure can't hurt. But I've also read other less prolific users (on preview: see above) saying they've gained from the community through #mefi or correspondences with people they've met here, or at meetups. Some people are just fortunate to live where attending meetups is relatively simple. Now I've just gotta get me to a meetup.
posted by raedyn at 11:35 AM on March 2, 2005

But what if one of the things you love about Mefi is the dramatic flamefests and the ensuing sleuthing that exposes online maniacs? Doesn't that count?
posted by CunningLinguist at 11:43 AM on March 2, 2005

I am a newbie w/o "status" but have still found many members to be nice & helpful. Members have helped me out with MeFi/and non-MeFi tech issues after I posted comments in MeTa threads.
posted by mlis at 11:44 AM on March 2, 2005

::::: hugs MetaFilter :::::
posted by Quadroonian at 11:46 AM on March 2, 2005

I'll give you guys a dollar if you stop fighting. Please?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:50 AM on March 2, 2005

The MeFi scholarship changed my life. Having a short-lived relationship with an unnamed member of MeFi changed my life. I may or may not be getting a job from another member of MeFi, which will definitely change my life. I have made at least a couple of fantastic friends here that I will continue to keep up with regardless of what happens to MeFi. The community here has changed my life for the better in many ways, and I love it.

I have been registered here for four years. At this point in my life, sad as it may be, Metafilter is one of the few constants in my world. As much as it has changed, it has remained the same enough to give me a feeling of comfort when everything else was changing - even when I was starting college away from everything I knew on the west coast, even when I found myself in Portland and knew nobody, even when I've been so depressed I couldn't make it out of the basement. No matter what happens to me, Metafilter will still be here and I will still be welcome (well, unless I flip my shit here, I guess). That more than anything has meant the world to me over the last four incredibly tumultuous years of my life.
posted by pikachulolita at 12:02 PM on March 2, 2005

WTF is with the fat jokes?
What else do you get to hate when every other physical, emotional, or sexual difference is un-PC to mention?
posted by darukaru at 12:10 PM on March 2, 2005

scarabic -- Thanks for posting this. Metafilter does/leads to a lot of good and bad things. We hear about everything bad that happens via MeTa. We seldom get to hear about the good things. People who are enraged post a lot faster than those who are satisfied or happy.

As for the u.n.owen stuff, give it a rest. Threads asking for charity for one person will not be tolerated again. It's over. It no longer matters. Please, if you will, gently and slowly fuck the fuck off.
posted by graventy at 12:19 PM on March 2, 2005

thanks from me too, scarabic : >
posted by amberglow at 12:31 PM on March 2, 2005

Me three, scarabic.

And all you vultures fighting over the scraps of u.n. owen, get over yourselves and move. the fuck. on.
posted by me3dia at 12:49 PM on March 2, 2005

Holy crap. You guys went to the art show?

*worlds collide*
posted by rajbot at 1:10 PM on March 2, 2005

Having a short-lived relationship with an unnamed member of MeFi changed my life.

Did you catch scabies?
posted by trharlan at 1:34 PM on March 2, 2005

I hate you all. (Just kidding).

I've met some real winners on this website: Contributing to my personal life, I found a great friend whom I never would have met otherwise running in my conservative & stagnant social circles. I've also found quite a few mentors, too, who i would be much less enriched by if i hadn't gotten to know them…people I would have never met or corresponded with in my limited groups of acquaintances. I've also found some of the funniest & wittiest people on the internets to keep me lolling. For my career, I found an IT group (well, I haven't contacted them just yet) through spicynuts! I found Working Assets telephony via o2b which saved us from evol verizon, and so many more valuable tidbits through AskMe questions. I also found that I could put complete trust and faith in internet moderators through the deliberations of mathowie and jessamyn. Yay for metafilter, where I've learned the inherent value of nerds.
posted by naxosaxur at 2:51 PM on March 2, 2005

1. t r a c y decided I needed my own web site. She got me started AND is hosting my blog.

My godmother hosts the best mefites: dong_resin, Secret Life of Gravy, Shane plus Coming soon to an internets near you: sgt. serenity & This space reserved for: amberglow

scarabic you do come off as gloating and it's even sadder that you may benefit from good treatment based on attending meet ups as opposed to you being one of the "cool kids" (a misnomer if ever there was one). What sort of internet community forces it's members into "meat space" in order to be taken at face value or treated well? It seems for too many of you that mefi has devolved into a dating type service to find IRL friends.

I've learned the inherent value of nerds.

79¢ a box and they taste bad.
posted by zarah at 3:31 PM on March 2, 2005

raedyn: I'm trying to think of ways that those of us that are more far-flung can benefit in some similar ways.

I was envious of MoFi's secret santa project-- it sounded like so much fun.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:14 PM on March 2, 2005

Ooh, can we have a SecretMeFiSanta project this year, too?
posted by scody at 4:26 PM on March 2, 2005

Secretsanta? Now that is an idea I can get behind.
posted by Quartermass at 4:48 PM on March 2, 2005

What sort of internet community forces it's members into "meat space" in order to be taken at face value or treated well?

I don't see what your support for this is. MrMoonPie has never met scarabic at a meetup and sent him a car stereo anyway. You think it is because of scarabic's presence at meetups? Scarabic had a very vocal presence on this site long before he started attending meetups. (The other experiences he refers to happened IRL, not on site, so I don't think they relate to the question of being taken at face value on site.) MrMoonPie is just a good guy.

You post (and I guess your user page) just rubs me in a mean-spirited sort of way, though admittedly it may be tied to the fact that my bf and I meet at a MeFi meetup and thus apparently have contributed to the site's sad "devol[ution] into a dating type service."

My main point is that no one needs to attend meet ups to be taken at face value or treated well. Mostly all you have to do is not solicit money or have money solicited for you on-site, or post goatse to the front page.
posted by onlyconnect at 4:50 PM on March 2, 2005

" the site's sad "devol[ution] into a dating type service."

What? Goddammit. Why did no one tell me that I should be wearing pants for this?
posted by graventy at 5:16 PM on March 2, 2005

I bought some peonies today. *blinks*
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 5:19 PM on March 2, 2005

FWIW, I got my current job through a fellow mefite, most of my closest freinds in New York are MeFites, and I got the courage to make some changes in my life through the online encouragement of people I initially met here. I've even occasionally been surprised on the suprised on the street by people saying "Hey, jonmc!" (I usually just yell "I'm sorry, I didn't mean it!" in those instances).

What sort of internet community forces it's members into "meat space" in order to be taken at face value or treated well?

For better or worse, it's more difficult to rip apart someone you've enjoyed sharing beers with. Not impossible, mind you, but more difficult.
posted by jonmc at 5:30 PM on March 2, 2005

Zarah I've always thought you were a pain in the arse and your user page just confirms that.
posted by Tarrama at 6:03 PM on March 2, 2005

Testimonial time: I started reading MetaFilter at scarabic's suggestion something like four years ago, when I was living in San Francisco.

I moved to Thailand and while I was there, I read MeFi every day. I was living in an area that is rather isolated from Western culture, and this site was like a cultural respirator that I could go without for only a day or so. Or, to use another analogy, my diet lacked irony.

I joined during the the Great Noob Rush of The Spring 2003, when I was back in SF, and I have been steadily participating since then (with a few vacations). I'm living in Vietnam now, and MeFi has regained its role as irony supplement and western culture respirator. I have real-life relationships with a few members, and a very familiar acquaintanceship with a couple dozen. These relationships, even the friendly nods, mean a lot to me, and my life would be a lot poorer without them.

Thanks for the thread, scarabic, and for the tip four years ago.
posted by squirrel at 6:40 PM on March 2, 2005

D'oh, I buried the lead!

Metafilter is one of the few constants in my world. As much as it has changed, it has remained the same enough to give me a feeling of comfort when everything else was changing

That comment is that inspired me to post my testimonial. MetaFilter has been a constant for me, too, during all the movement and change that I've been through during the last four years. That was my original point.
posted by squirrel at 6:44 PM on March 2, 2005

Secret Life of Gravy I'd like to see the Secret Santa Project here too. I participated in the MoFi one and it was fun. My Secret Santa turned out to be someone who was also a Metafilter member which made it twice as nice.
posted by Tarrama at 6:55 PM on March 2, 2005

I don't see what your support for this is.

"majick - a perspective much more easily supported by the facts is that I have more goodness in my life because I show up to meetups. DOH!!!
posted by scarabic at 9:21 AM PST on March 2 [!]"

You post (and I guess your user page) just rubs me in a mean-spirited sort of way

This whole place is mean spirited at it's core, chasing off actual nice people with great regularity and nary a misgiving. This place is so bereft of community spirit you have to take time out to sit down and think hard to come up with a really paltry list of examples of said spirit And then your feelings are hurt when someone says something mean about you. I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere and ended up at a UBB populated by 13 yr olds.
posted by zarah at 6:59 PM on March 2, 2005

This whole place is mean spirited at it's core, chasing off actual nice people with great regularity and nary a misgiving.

*clicks on zarah's userpage / shit list.

riiight...
posted by Quartermass at 7:06 PM on March 2, 2005

She was 13 like, last year or something. Give her a break. Or maybe her clitoris for a test drive. Sumthin'.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:11 PM on March 2, 2005

zarah, but the "goodness" scarabic is referring to is goodness he's experiencing IRL, not on the site. Look at his examples again; the only ones connected to the site are the car stereo and the SF meetup thread.

That's his point -- his LIFE is enriched by the site and community. YOUR point is that he's getting extra consideration on the SITE because of his participation in meetups. I don't see that, and you haven't shown it happening.

I don't disagree that people on the site are often more mean-spirited and suspicious than they need to be, particularly on MeTa and in the blue. But, you know, light a candle vs. curse the darkness, etc.

EB: wtf?
posted by onlyconnect at 7:18 PM on March 2, 2005

You know zarah, I think your "shit" list is actually fairly entertaining. You are right on in some cases but picking on EB because he is verbose? jonmc becaue he drinks while posting? come on, you can do better than that!

At the end of the day though, is it really necessary to add to the negative vibes? People should act "hard" and never have their "feelings hurt"? Why?
posted by Quartermass at 7:19 PM on March 2, 2005

You know zarah, I think your "shit" list is actually fairly entertaining. You are right on in some cases but picking on EB because he is verbose? jonmc because he drinks while posting? come on, you can do better than that!

At the end of the day though, is it really necessary to add to the negative vibes? People should act "hard" and never have their "feelings hurt"? Why?
posted by Quartermass at 7:19 PM on March 2, 2005

scarabic, sorry to shite on your thread, but it was long-ago derailed.

I'm completely unimpressed with this excuse, naxosaxur. Didn't get enough jabs in in the other threads? Tough. You can do better than dogpile onto a trainwreck. Try.

zarah - the really sad thing is your attitude. You bemoan the lack of unconditional love and goodwill around here, yet mope around like a greying sad sack of shit, meeting my most honest and open-hearted expression of gratitude for this community with arms-crossed snipes like this:

scarabic you do come off as gloating and it's even sadder that you may benefit from good treatment based on attending meet ups as opposed to you being one of the "cool kids" (a misnomer if ever there was one). What sort of internet community forces it's members into "meat space" in order to be taken at face value or treated well? It seems for too many of you that mefi has devolved into a dating type service to find IRL friends.


Oh! If only we had more community-minded people like you! and fewer gloating, meat-space gigilos like myself. Then what a Valhalla this would be. "mean spirited at it's core," indeed, and a hearty fuck you back atcha.
posted by scarabic at 7:26 PM on March 2, 2005

Apparently, she was picking on me because she thought a four year-old photo of my cat while she was in perfect health indicated that she was dying. Note to Zarah: mark vet school off your list. And, um, I fed my cat this summer for a month with a syringe at the advice of a vet, which did for a while save her life (and put her in apparently good health) but there was something else wrong and she died two months ago. I appreciate the "kind" words, though, and my interpretation of them is that perhaps you, too, ought to be "put to sleep". Or, you know, find a real mom who can teach you some kindness and manners. Although it's probably too late.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:28 PM on March 2, 2005

meat-space gigilos like myself

Need more meat in your meat-space? scarabic's your man.
posted by DaShiv at 7:30 PM on March 2, 2005

Uncle Owen! Aunt Beru!
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 7:39 PM on March 2, 2005

I don't think we talk enough about Ethereal Bligh.
posted by Stynxno at 7:40 PM on March 2, 2005

Aww, look at the cruel people losing it the moment someone turns it back on them in the least vigorous way possible. You guys are a scream. EB, scarabic (who clearly has the idea he's a great guy who does no harm), others in this thread, you're such incredible hypocrites, how's a kid supposed to take anything you say seriously? Well, you know I don't.
posted by zarah at 7:53 PM on March 2, 2005

Awww look at the bitter crumb who lost it at zero provocation using the 3rd person like that's going to offend me. I have done harm here. You have done practically nothing here, as your userpage shows, except compile a shitlist. And now you complain of a lack of community? News flash: you are the problem.
posted by scarabic at 8:04 PM on March 2, 2005

Wow zarah, very impressive. I'm proud to be among such company on your "list". Very mature. I had something like this in a tatty notebook when I was in 3rd grade. Thanks for dragging me into your public mental illness. It's been a lot of fun, and i'm going to promise to make my reservation on your list worthwhile.

However I have a request: can you please float me to the top of your list? I'd like to hold the top honor of being the biggest cunt out of them all. Hey listen zarah, I'm glad someone's been obsessing over all my metafilter comments and classifying me on a tawdry, pathetic list. I feel like an internet celebrity! You care! You're the cat's anus! Mama's very proud of you, sweetie!
posted by naxosaxur at 8:05 PM on March 2, 2005

Zarah, I was under the impression that t r a c y had you in rehab and put a stop to your spraypaint huffing habit. Apparently, from your comments above, that's not the case.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:05 PM on March 2, 2005

EB, dude, WTF? Cut it out.
posted by onlyconnect at 8:12 PM on March 2, 2005

You know I always wanted to read "zarah" as zardoz which makes no sense at all since they are not even remotely close. I have a strange fascination with that movie. I saw it late at night one time, like 2:30 in the morning and I am sitting there watching it, having been depriving myself of sleep to open my brain up for a while and it completely fucked with my head. And then I saw it later when I had actually slept and found that it was still really fucking weird. Although kinda boring when you are wide awake and full of nervous energy? But still, fascinating movie. And now Metafilter has a zardoz. I think I saw a zardoz anyway. So anyway, I bought some peonies today.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 8:14 PM on March 2, 2005

"EB, dude, WTF? Cut it out."

Why? She's demonstrated she can dish it out. Let's see if she can take it. (check your email)
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:15 PM on March 2, 2005

Now I know what's been missing in my MeFi experience all these years: I'm not on zarah's shitlist!
posted by wendell at 8:16 PM on March 2, 2005

"So might a child threaten a mail-clad knight with a bow of string and green willow! ...would he not rather smile?"
posted by DaShiv at 8:23 PM on March 2, 2005

Zarah, I was under the impression that t r a c y had you in rehab and put a stop to your spraypaint huffing habit. Apparently, from your comments above, that's not the case.

Well done, EB. Clearly you have good manners.
posted by mlis at 8:25 PM on March 2, 2005

Indeed I do.

"One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back."
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:27 PM on March 2, 2005

"EB, dude, WTF? Cut it out."

No way! I like this EB!
posted by scarabic at 8:30 PM on March 2, 2005

zarah, honey, one more request: can you at least try to analyze me, or use some out-of-context quote to substantiate your irrational bias towards me? How about an MS-Paint picture rendering of me...like screaming or devouring mefi like godzilla? That'd be awesome!
posted by naxosaxur at 8:30 PM on March 2, 2005

Clearly I have not snarked around here enough. And why isn't quonsar on the shitlist?
posted by casarkos at 8:38 PM on March 2, 2005

onlyconnect, what's the big deal? EB is entirely impotent, especially when he's trying this hard. naxo, you will be thrilled to know there's a large contingent of people out here who pay attention when you act up! YAY FOR YOU AND YOUR (NOT SO) IRONIC ALL CAPS!! On preview: you've already been analyzed by a group of mefites, but it was done semi privately and by active members that I'm not willing to out. wendell you used to be on the list, but someone made me take you off it. Next time I'm this bored, and have nothing better to do than check on you folks, I'll see if I can fill the list out a bit. Cheers folks, it's been typical.
posted by zarah at 8:45 PM on March 2, 2005

quonsar is the "Teflon Don"
posted by Quartermass at 8:47 PM on March 2, 2005

Wonderful thread, everybody! Thanks for showing up. Make sure to take home a piece of cake. Drive carefully. EB and zarah, come talk to me if you want your keys.

[close]
posted by squirrel at 8:53 PM on March 2, 2005

SO YOU LIKE IT WHEN I SCREAM YOUR NAME?!! ARE YOU GETTING WET TOO??!! MY PANTIES TIGHTEN WITH EXCITEMENT! OMG IM SHOUTING I LOVE THIS SO MUCH!

F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5!
posted by naxosaxur at 8:56 PM on March 2, 2005

I bought some peonies today. I bought a red one, a pink one and four white ones. Peonies smell good.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 9:09 PM on March 2, 2005

Dearie, I'm not even trying. But you are. Had enough acting out? Got the attention you need belittling scarabic's thread? Better, though, that you work through these issues with your child psychologist. Maybe you should draw some angry pictures with lots of red crayon.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:12 PM on March 2, 2005

So...

1) act like a cunt in a thread about how great the community is
2) complain about how much the community spirit is gone
3) call other people hypocrites

What. The. Fuck.

Goodnight, sweet moron.
posted by scarabic at 10:21 PM on March 2, 2005

Hm. Well, just so this doesn't end on a completely sour note... For me, too, MeFi is something of an online "home" complete with friends and "family", and it is a comfort because I am on a different continent from my own family. As others have mentioned, it's also a kind of cultural pickmeup, since I'm not exposed to all the same real life memes here, and it's nice to stay tuned in.

Unfortunately, I don't get a chance to do meetups... But when I finally get back for a visit, all you southern Louisiana people better step lively!

/not forgiving amberglow for neglecting Greece in all his world travel-meetupping.
posted by taz at 11:29 PM on March 2, 2005

taz: funny you should mention: I had a good chai with #1 yesterday (well, he had a hot chocolate, but that's beside the point).

clockzero: yes. sometime around the end of march/beginning of april, date yet TBA. I'll keep you in the loop.

Scody: you should have joined the MoFis when they made their pilgrimmage to Jupiter (in Berkeley) to meet their #1. Well, you'll have a similar chance soon enough, we can hope.

EB: While I appreciate your intent in defending scarabic's thread, wouldn't less hostility be more in line with the spirit of the post?

On a slightly unrelated note: Sometimes I wish I was un- or self-employed, so as to keep up with MeFi a bit more.

Other times, I'm glad I can't.

I must say, though, that MeFi (and Flickr, unexpectedly) has brought me more real-world friendships through meetups (scheduled and otherwise) than I would have expected.
posted by quasistoic at 12:21 AM on March 3, 2005

So. Where are the pics from the #1 / Freakin' Fox meetup?

eh?
posted by scarabic at 12:38 AM on March 3, 2005

For what it's worth, I wasn't primarily, or even secondarily, defending scarabic's thread. I was mostly defending myself; or, really, striking back at Zarah's cruel swipe at me regarding my cat about which I'm very sensitive because she died only two months ago. Oddly, back in July or so, t r a c y and Zarah sent me a nice e-card expressing sympathy for my cat's ill health. I suppose kindness and cruelty are not that far apart. Well, I do think they're far apart but apparently not in Zarah's case.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:28 PM on March 3, 2005

just clicked on zarah's userpage. Jeez, what the hell did I ever do to you, lady?

And when I need your opinion of my personal habits, I'll ask you for it.
posted by jonmc at 5:00 PM on March 3, 2005

> > "I don't see what your support for this is."

> "majick - a perspective much more easily supported by the facts is that I have more goodness in my life because I show up to meetups. DOH!!!

Actually, he's just taking a good-natured dig at my notorious habit of not showing up to meets. Calm down.
posted by majick at 6:18 PM on March 3, 2005

EB: by defending or supporting un owen you are objectively pro fraud.

I have no sympathy.
posted by nearlife at 6:39 PM on March 3, 2005

Nearlife: I didn't defend or support u. n. owen. I condemned the behavior of being a jerk in that thread. People were nasty with no information. That their distrust is now validated doesn't change anything. The person who posted the thread could have easily picked someone else that, in contrast, was deserving and trustworthy. But people would have acted the same. The issue was not specific to owen.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:20 PM on March 3, 2005

"Issue of Worthless Checks(⟨=$2500) Misd. A"

Bad checks of greater than $2499.99 is only a misdemeanor? Weird.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:06 PM on March 3, 2005

How much did you send her, reverend sucker?
posted by squirrel at 9:05 AM on March 4, 2005

Well she has disappeared now - all info from her userpage has vanished and the Onion profile seems to have slipped into the aether.

Not sure whether it's a good thing or a bad thing in all honesty.
posted by longbaugh at 10:22 AM on March 4, 2005

Just to make sure that this shows up in Google, Jeannette Vanderbosch is u.n. owen and her scam was (mostly) foiled. Have fun getting anyone else to believe you, JBV.

Yes, this is the same JBV that many livejournal folks may remember.
posted by norm at 11:34 AM on March 4, 2005

"How much did you send her, reverend sucker?"

Addressed to me? If so: nothing. Firstly, I'm as desitute as they come without actually being on the street. So that wasn't an option. But I likely wouldn't have sent her something anyway, even were it five years ago when I was loaded with money and pretty generous. Why? Because personal decision was that other people would likely be more deserving and her need wasn't that urgent. The difference between me and the people I condemned were that I understood this as a personal choice (where they were condemnatory of both owen and everyone that contributed to her); that (given what we knew at the time) owen in merely cooperating with someone soliciting generosity did not make her a "bad person"; and just generally being a a fucking jerk and not-nice and cynical and blah blah blah about the whole thing. Owen could have been exactly what she claimed to be (and she still could), she could have been or be a good person in legitimate need, and I'm sure that most of those people would have reacted in the same way because their reaction was really all about them and their feelings about charity (and their feelings and moral judgments about people who "resort" to asking or cooperating with charity), not about u. n. owen.

I've thought about this brouhaha a lot, and just now it occurs to me that the most succinct way I can describe my thoughts about this and charity are that choosing or not choosing to give to someone who either has solicited or is cooperative with charity does not in any sense privilege one to make moral judgments about that other person. There was the presumption that by putting herself in the position of accepting or encouraging charity to her, u. n. owen was either presumed to be a con-artist, or, worse in a way, had surrended all of her privacy and implicitly submitted herself for complete moral scrutiny and judgment by anyone and everyone. That's just wrong. There's a lot of the psychology in that that I firmly believe is about a power trip and/or related to self-esteem issues involving having contempt for others. This is what I strongly complained against. And, in that context, whether or not owen turned out to be a con-artist, or immoral, or a devil-worshipper, for that matter, is mostly irrelevant.

In response to norm's comment and similar; I'm essentially agnostic. Foiling con-artists and "users" is a Good Thing, and preventing it from happening in the future is, also, A Good Thing. But that shades into a power-trip vendetta, a self-satisfied public whipping of someone that's more about the "sleuth" than it is about either serving justice or protecting other people. It can be hard to tell one from the other, but their tone gives away a lot of their secret motivations.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:10 PM on March 4, 2005

my! how you blather on...

I've thought about this brouhaha a lot, and just now it occurs to me that the most succinct way I can describe my thoughts about this and charity are that choosing or not choosing to give to someone who either has solicited or is cooperative with charity does not in any sense privilege one to make moral judgments about that other person. There was the presumption that by putting herself in the position of accepting or encouraging charity to her, u. n. owen was either presumed to be a con-artist, or, worse in a way, had surrended all of her privacy and implicitly submitted herself for complete moral scrutiny and judgment by anyone and everyone. That's just wrong. There's a lot of the psychology in that that I firmly believe is about a power trip and/or related to self-esteem issues involving having contempt for others. This is what I strongly complained against. And, in that context, whether or not owen turned out to be a con-artist, or immoral, or a devil-worshipper, for that matter, is mostly irrelevant.

wow. just, wow.
posted by quonsar at 12:59 PM on March 4, 2005

No disrespect intended but frankly there are people in worse shape than her and they will be all their lives. I will put my effort in to raising their standard of living first.

Wherein I indicate my reasoning for not donating...

Firstly, I'm as desitute as they come without actually being on the street. So that wasn't an option. But I likely wouldn't have sent her something anyway, even were it five years ago when I was loaded with money and pretty generous. Why? Because personal decision was that other people would likely be more deserving and her need wasn't that urgent.

Wherein Bligh says exactly the same thing...

"...as a homeless person who still works full time and is having a particularly poop time..."

So everyone else's misfortunes should be judged relative to yours? I'll notify all the various aid agencies.

Wherein Bligh gives me shit for no reason whatsoever considering he has exactly the same reasoning as me...

Tool.
posted by longbaugh at 1:14 PM on March 4, 2005

greater than $2499.99 is only a misdemeanor? Weird.

how arcane. you must have missed the rfc that defined 'less than'.
posted by quonsar at 1:27 PM on March 4, 2005

Oh, good point.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:38 PM on March 4, 2005

Seems like this is no longer remotely related to the original post, and scarabic asked to delete it so I'll close it.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:48 AM on March 6, 2005