Commenter in contentious AskMe protests allegations of derailing behavior July 6, 2006 2:20 PM Subscribe
Compare and contrast:
How do I deal with a Muslim co-worker who doesn't like me? which is pretty much one uninterrupted chorus of "what does his being Muslim have to do with it?" and How do I keep my [Latino] neighbors from stealing my power? in which someone, i.e. me, asking the same question, was insulted and accused of derailing.
How do I deal with a Muslim co-worker who doesn't like me? which is pretty much one uninterrupted chorus of "what does his being Muslim have to do with it?" and How do I keep my [Latino] neighbors from stealing my power? in which someone, i.e. me, asking the same question, was insulted and accused of derailing.
Is a white guy responsible for his injuries if he walks through the projects? Is a woman responsible for her rape if she wears a string bikini to a biker bar?
posted by mischief at 2:31 PM on July 6, 2006
posted by mischief at 2:31 PM on July 6, 2006
I guess MetaFilter's just not that into you.
posted by gigawhat? at 2:34 PM on July 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by gigawhat? at 2:34 PM on July 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
Was he watching porno?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:34 PM on July 6, 2006
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:34 PM on July 6, 2006
ambrose: where in your original answer to the girl with power problems did you address the question?
no answer = derail.
posted by lester at 2:34 PM on July 6, 2006
no answer = derail.
posted by lester at 2:34 PM on July 6, 2006
Actually, though she may have worded it in a way that may sound offensive if you just read that sentence, if you read the post about the Muslim co-worker you see that he criticizes her dress - which one can assume has something to do with the way he presumes women should dress, which could be due to his background. I think what she was trying to say was that this problem she's having may be due to a cultural issue more than personality - and thus relevant in trying to understand how to get along with him. The key is reading all the posts and the comments where she clarifies this.
Didn't read the other post though.
posted by batgrlHG at 2:35 PM on July 6, 2006
Didn't read the other post though.
posted by batgrlHG at 2:35 PM on July 6, 2006
I think the difference is that in one of them you added the word "latino" - she mentioned in the thread that they were latino, but did not set up the question as if that were the main point, whereas the muslim co-worker question does seem to make an assumption that his being muslim is the root of the trouble (ie, it's in the FPP, the tags, the title, & focused on in the 'more inside', not just mentioned in passing)
posted by mdn at 2:46 PM on July 6, 2006
posted by mdn at 2:46 PM on July 6, 2006
You looked dumb and knee-jerky when asking her about mentioning that the guys were Latino, as she only mentioned it in passing and did not phrase the question around the issue as though it were centrally important or somehow behind their actions.
The other post mentioned him being Muslim as though it were informing of or the reason for his shitty attitude towards women, which I don't have much of a problem because Muslim countries and cultures are shitty to women precisely because of their religious teachings and general culture. To pretend otherwise is just willful ignorance.
posted by xmutex at 3:06 PM on July 6, 2006
The other post mentioned him being Muslim as though it were informing of or the reason for his shitty attitude towards women, which I don't have much of a problem because Muslim countries and cultures are shitty to women precisely because of their religious teachings and general culture. To pretend otherwise is just willful ignorance.
posted by xmutex at 3:06 PM on July 6, 2006
My Jewish landlord keeps trying to increase my rent, what should I do?
My Indian neighbours are stinking up my backyard with their cooking smells, what should I do?
My gay neighbour keeps staring at my ass and package when I am on the front lawn, what should I do?
My Chinese neighbour keeps bumping my fence and garbage cans when she is trying to park her car, what should I do?
My Mexican neighbour always has his huge extended family lazing around the property speaking Spanish, what should I do?
My Norweigian neighbours are constantly harpooning whales when I am trying to enjoy the fjord, what should I do?
My Russian neighbour is selling pirated versions of my intellectual property on the Internet, what should I do?
Compare and contrast.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:11 PM on July 6, 2006 [2 favorites]
My Indian neighbours are stinking up my backyard with their cooking smells, what should I do?
My gay neighbour keeps staring at my ass and package when I am on the front lawn, what should I do?
My Chinese neighbour keeps bumping my fence and garbage cans when she is trying to park her car, what should I do?
My Mexican neighbour always has his huge extended family lazing around the property speaking Spanish, what should I do?
My Norweigian neighbours are constantly harpooning whales when I am trying to enjoy the fjord, what should I do?
My Russian neighbour is selling pirated versions of my intellectual property on the Internet, what should I do?
Compare and contrast.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:11 PM on July 6, 2006 [2 favorites]
I think that in the original post the "Latino" description was helpful in allowing us all to frame the situation better.
In the current posting, it would have been sufficient to say that the co-worker is from a different ethnic and religious background from the OP... although people would have asked, I'm sure.
I don't think that she was trying to be insulting, rather she wanted to help the hive better help her with her situation.
posted by k8t at 3:25 PM on July 6, 2006
In the current posting, it would have been sufficient to say that the co-worker is from a different ethnic and religious background from the OP... although people would have asked, I'm sure.
I don't think that she was trying to be insulting, rather she wanted to help the hive better help her with her situation.
posted by k8t at 3:25 PM on July 6, 2006
obviously, latinos who live next to you are more likely to steal your electricity than muslims who work with you.
i mean, duh.
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 3:37 PM on July 6, 2006
i mean, duh.
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 3:37 PM on July 6, 2006
Hello, people? Did you miss the conversation about the propriety of eating halal? Sometimes religion or ethnicity is important to understanding the context of the situation. It doesn't mean that the poster is racist or that the other person is conforming to stereotype.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 3:39 PM on July 6, 2006
posted by Saucy Intruder at 3:39 PM on July 6, 2006
wait, muslims eat people named hal and al?
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 3:40 PM on July 6, 2006
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 3:40 PM on July 6, 2006
"How do I deal with a Muslim co-worker who doesn't like me?"
Point out what you see as logical flaws in his religious beliefs and tell him his homeland is filled with misogynists. That'll win him over.
posted by turaho at 3:52 PM on July 6, 2006
Point out what you see as logical flaws in his religious beliefs and tell him his homeland is filled with misogynists. That'll win him over.
posted by turaho at 3:52 PM on July 6, 2006
So you're accusing the community of being hypocrites? How exactly does that work?
posted by smackfu at 4:01 PM on July 6, 2006
posted by smackfu at 4:01 PM on July 6, 2006
For the record, I think his being Muslim is actually relevant, which is partly why I think it's curious.
I will continue to maintain that the neighbours being Latino in the other thread didn't have any bearing on the actual problem -- the question contained its own derail -- and note that that by the time she plucked up the courage to actually do something and confront the scary Mexicans who weren't really Mexican she discovered they spoke perfect English, so claims of "cultural difference" and "language barrier" were all part of her assumptions, not part of the problem.
Questioning people's assumptions is often a key part of the AskMe experience. So I may not have offered a solution, but I think "I have to ask, why did you mention X" is still a valid post.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 4:27 PM on July 6, 2006
I will continue to maintain that the neighbours being Latino in the other thread didn't have any bearing on the actual problem -- the question contained its own derail -- and note that that by the time she plucked up the courage to actually do something and confront the scary Mexicans who weren't really Mexican she discovered they spoke perfect English, so claims of "cultural difference" and "language barrier" were all part of her assumptions, not part of the problem.
Questioning people's assumptions is often a key part of the AskMe experience. So I may not have offered a solution, but I think "I have to ask, why did you mention X" is still a valid post.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 4:27 PM on July 6, 2006
I think it's relevant, as well, but it's relevant here for a different reason than the Latino thing (which I also thought was relevant, but that's not necessarily an argument we have to have right now). I think to some extent the whole BBQ thing could have come off as "you dirty x-whatever-nationality-people eat pigs, and I don't, so I'm better than you," and then the whole bit about her clothing is probably an unfortunate collision of his actually NOT approving of her dress and her being sensitive enough about it to be affected -- and the whole deal is magnified by his voluntarily stated superiroity to everyone else who eats of the dirty pig.
I mean, I respect your religion, and if you're Muslim and we're buddies, I won't eat pig at lunch with you, but if we barely know one another and no one is shoving pig down your throat, there's no need to be a jerk about other people enjoying it.
posted by Medieval Maven at 4:40 PM on July 6, 2006
I mean, I respect your religion, and if you're Muslim and we're buddies, I won't eat pig at lunch with you, but if we barely know one another and no one is shoving pig down your throat, there's no need to be a jerk about other people enjoying it.
posted by Medieval Maven at 4:40 PM on July 6, 2006
As much as I come off like a bigoted schmuck in that thread, I will continue to maintain that it did have bearing on her problem (Especially after being perturbed by the whole clusterfuck discussing it at length with my Latino housemates and friends) - in particular that her neighbors weren't taking her seriously because she's a female, that she was unable to communicate with them, and that she was thereby and/or also intimidated by them.
I think it's curious that you think that his being Muslim is relevant but her difficulties with communicating with her neighbors and being taken seriously was not.
posted by loquacious at 4:50 PM on July 6, 2006
I think it's curious that you think that his being Muslim is relevant but her difficulties with communicating with her neighbors and being taken seriously was not.
posted by loquacious at 4:50 PM on July 6, 2006
"My Norweigian neighbours are constantly harpooning whales when I am trying to enjoy the fjord, what should I do?"
I lol'ed. Heartily.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:54 PM on July 6, 2006
I lol'ed. Heartily.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:54 PM on July 6, 2006
I think it's fair enough to suggest that relations with muslims are more of a minefield than relations with latinos at the moment, for obvious reasons. The fact that so many on the right wing demonise muslims causes others to veer towards the opposite extreme, of hypersensitivity towards, and opposition to, any perceived negative stereotyping.
If people also have more interaction with latinos on a day-to-day basis than with muslims, then the old "familiarity breeds contempt" aspect may creep in, as well, perhaps creating an unconscious layer of stereotyping. If relations with muslims are more abstract due to distance & lack of everyday contact, it is probably easier to take either approach, of demonising or (um?) "deifying" them.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:56 PM on July 6, 2006
If people also have more interaction with latinos on a day-to-day basis than with muslims, then the old "familiarity breeds contempt" aspect may creep in, as well, perhaps creating an unconscious layer of stereotyping. If relations with muslims are more abstract due to distance & lack of everyday contact, it is probably easier to take either approach, of demonising or (um?) "deifying" them.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:56 PM on July 6, 2006
Wait, so you're upset that the PC Patrol chose this question over the one you'd prefer to see them active in?
In both cases, the different culture was relevant.
posted by klangklangston at 4:57 PM on July 6, 2006
In both cases, the different culture was relevant.
posted by klangklangston at 4:57 PM on July 6, 2006
Nothing is funnier than indignant liberals:
"You admit to recognizing cultural differences! Even when it's negative! You are evil! I, your intellectual superior, see a beautiful rainbow!"
Know what? Culture clash is a part of life. It doesn't mean that you beat or intimidate people for it. But you shouldn't pour the contents of your bleeding heart all over someone who acknowledges it, either.
No wonder the left is totally defeated. It's full of sensitive wusses too busy attacking perceived slights instead of real issues.
note to people who have already flagged this comment: I am indeed referring to you and you should take it personally. Maybe even cry in your cubicle next to your photos of other peoples' children. Your thin-skinned tattling only makes me feel better about my own character next to yours.
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:02 PM on July 6, 2006 [2 favorites]
"You admit to recognizing cultural differences! Even when it's negative! You are evil! I, your intellectual superior, see a beautiful rainbow!"
Know what? Culture clash is a part of life. It doesn't mean that you beat or intimidate people for it. But you shouldn't pour the contents of your bleeding heart all over someone who acknowledges it, either.
No wonder the left is totally defeated. It's full of sensitive wusses too busy attacking perceived slights instead of real issues.
note to people who have already flagged this comment: I am indeed referring to you and you should take it personally. Maybe even cry in your cubicle next to your photos of other peoples' children. Your thin-skinned tattling only makes me feel better about my own character next to yours.
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:02 PM on July 6, 2006 [2 favorites]
I'd like to point out that the guy that plays Kumar in Harold and Kumar Go to Whitecastle plays Lex Luthor's thug in the new superman movie.
posted by puke & cry at 5:02 PM on July 6, 2006
posted by puke & cry at 5:02 PM on July 6, 2006
Maybe you should move out of Queens, meatbomb.
posted by horsewithnoname at 5:23 PM on July 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by horsewithnoname at 5:23 PM on July 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
I thought the 'His religion has nothing to do with it!' answers were downright weird in that thread, to be honest - he asked her if she'd like to live in an Islamic country, he brought up halal butchery, ie. his religion was clearly part of the issue. (Not to mention that A Jehovas Witness growing up in Northern Ireland probably deserves some slack when it comes to being overly sensitive to religous differences.)
Reminds me of the time an unbearably vile woman came to a dinner party my flatmates and I were throwing (as the date of someone who was invited, rather than being invited herself) and proceeded to complain vociferously that the main course contained pork so she couldn't eat it, and continued to do so even after we'd apologised, explained that we didn't know she was coming, that we didn't even know she was Jewish, and had quickly whipped up an alternative meal for her. No doubt if I'd posted to Ask MetaFilter about how to politely make sure she never darkened our door again I'd be tarred and feathered as a raging anti-Semite...
posted by jack_mo at 5:43 PM on July 6, 2006
Reminds me of the time an unbearably vile woman came to a dinner party my flatmates and I were throwing (as the date of someone who was invited, rather than being invited herself) and proceeded to complain vociferously that the main course contained pork so she couldn't eat it, and continued to do so even after we'd apologised, explained that we didn't know she was coming, that we didn't even know she was Jewish, and had quickly whipped up an alternative meal for her. No doubt if I'd posted to Ask MetaFilter about how to politely make sure she never darkened our door again I'd be tarred and feathered as a raging anti-Semite...
posted by jack_mo at 5:43 PM on July 6, 2006
you're supposed to be accommodating of everyone's sky-god demands.
next time, make eight or nine dishes and throw away the ones your guests don't eat. it's the right thing to do.
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 6:02 PM on July 6, 2006
next time, make eight or nine dishes and throw away the ones your guests don't eat. it's the right thing to do.
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 6:02 PM on July 6, 2006
"I will continue to maintain that the neighbours being Latino in the other thread didn't have any bearing on the actual problem"
So understanding what may be differences in another culture that she may not know about will NOT help her resolve a problem? You do realize that a large number of latinos have moved into an area that did not previously have a strong latino culture, right? So you're saying that someone should not feel free to mention the ethnicity involved - when some of the socializing that she was seeing amongst her neighbors might be something that's part of a culture she didn't know? I read her posts as someone who was frustrated, but also trying to figure out how threatened she should be by her neighbors wandering onto her property, gathering in groups, peering into her windows, etc. - a point where someone could hop in and educate her on another culture. I note you didn't try and help out.
posted by batgrlHG at 6:12 PM on July 6, 2006
So understanding what may be differences in another culture that she may not know about will NOT help her resolve a problem? You do realize that a large number of latinos have moved into an area that did not previously have a strong latino culture, right? So you're saying that someone should not feel free to mention the ethnicity involved - when some of the socializing that she was seeing amongst her neighbors might be something that's part of a culture she didn't know? I read her posts as someone who was frustrated, but also trying to figure out how threatened she should be by her neighbors wandering onto her property, gathering in groups, peering into her windows, etc. - a point where someone could hop in and educate her on another culture. I note you didn't try and help out.
posted by batgrlHG at 6:12 PM on July 6, 2006
In the U.S. Most Muslims are wealthy or at least middle class, usually people who come to the US with (or to get) a collage education. While many Latinos are poor, and usually immigrate to do cheap labor (although obviously that's not always the case, it was with RadioAmy's neighbors)
posted by delmoi at 7:07 PM on July 6, 2006
posted by delmoi at 7:07 PM on July 6, 2006
It's a whole lot better than in the recent past but it's still really goddamn tough to be an immigrant in Ireland compared to many other rich countries. I'm from Ireland, and the crap my (also South Asian, Muslim) fiance has had to put up with from total strangers when we're there tends to knock any built up homesickness out of me very quickly. I don't know Norn Iron very well, so let me know if I'm talking out of my arse, but can't imagine it's much better up there. If the Irish newspapers are to be believed, it's worse.
So in my mind the fact he's an immigrant and/or minority who's probably a combination of homesick, culture shocked, frustrated at being underemployed and a socially clueless jackass to boot is more relevant than the fact he's a Muslim in this case. Either way, I think there are some really good answers in that thread.
posted by jamesonandwater at 7:10 PM on July 6, 2006
So in my mind the fact he's an immigrant and/or minority who's probably a combination of homesick, culture shocked, frustrated at being underemployed and a socially clueless jackass to boot is more relevant than the fact he's a Muslim in this case. Either way, I think there are some really good answers in that thread.
posted by jamesonandwater at 7:10 PM on July 6, 2006
Anyway, I think the Latino thing did help people understand the situation better. The vitrol in that thread and in the me-ta post was a thing to behold though. Almost like the good old days before Alex and Dhoyt got banned.
posted by delmoi at 7:12 PM on July 6, 2006
posted by delmoi at 7:12 PM on July 6, 2006
I don't think the Muslim thing was very relevant in this case though, because it just revolved around the guy being a huge jerk. That's probably the main difference between the two. In one case you have Latinos acting in what might be considered a 'stereotypical' way and in another case you have one guy who's just a jerk, and happens to be Muslim.
posted by delmoi at 7:17 PM on July 6, 2006
posted by delmoi at 7:17 PM on July 6, 2006
It was relevant in understanding why he was doing what he was doing, but irrelevant in what recourse she should've taken.
posted by cellphone at 7:24 PM on July 6, 2006
posted by cellphone at 7:24 PM on July 6, 2006
I will continue to maintain that the neighbours being Latino in the other thread didn't have any bearing on the actual problem
And that's really the whole point of this thread, isn't it? To remind us all that you are righteoulsy indignant over the latino neighbor thread? I really think it's time you move on with your life.
posted by scottreynen at 8:35 PM on July 6, 2006
And that's really the whole point of this thread, isn't it? To remind us all that you are righteoulsy indignant over the latino neighbor thread? I really think it's time you move on with your life.
posted by scottreynen at 8:35 PM on July 6, 2006
So I may not have offered a solution, but I think "I have to ask, why did you mention X" is still a valid post.
You also think popping into threads to call people names makes for a valid post. Maybe it's time for you to reread the guidelines.
posted by dobbs at 9:25 PM on July 6, 2006
You also think popping into threads to call people names makes for a valid post. Maybe it's time for you to reread the guidelines.
posted by dobbs at 9:25 PM on July 6, 2006
loquacious:
she was unable to communicate with them
Once again, for the hard of thinking, this simply, absolutely, by her own admission wasn't true! That was my point! My god, it's like one of those dreams where you're running and you can't drag your legs out of the quicksand.
She sat around assuming that she couldn't communicate with them and posting on Ask, and then when she actually got off her ass and did something about it, she reported back that they spoke perfect English.
So the thread could have been curtailed to this:
HER: I have a problem with neighbours I can't communicate with because they're Latino.
YOU: Are you sure? Have you actually tried?
HER (after a brief pause): well whaddaya know! Turns out they speak perfect English.
Q.E.D. -- asking people to question their assumptions, racist or otherwise, can help solve problems.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 10:11 PM on July 6, 2006
she was unable to communicate with them
Once again, for the hard of thinking, this simply, absolutely, by her own admission wasn't true! That was my point! My god, it's like one of those dreams where you're running and you can't drag your legs out of the quicksand.
She sat around assuming that she couldn't communicate with them and posting on Ask, and then when she actually got off her ass and did something about it, she reported back that they spoke perfect English.
So the thread could have been curtailed to this:
HER: I have a problem with neighbours I can't communicate with because they're Latino.
YOU: Are you sure? Have you actually tried?
HER (after a brief pause): well whaddaya know! Turns out they speak perfect English.
Q.E.D. -- asking people to question their assumptions, racist or otherwise, can help solve problems.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 10:11 PM on July 6, 2006
You also think popping into threads to call people names makes for a valid post.
I didn't pop in. I practically camped out in that thread for days.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 10:13 PM on July 6, 2006
I didn't pop in. I practically camped out in that thread for days.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 10:13 PM on July 6, 2006
Because the community is undecided about whether Muslims generally make worse coworkers but is confident that Hispanics are more likely to steal electricity?
No... Wait, was it because you appear to be dwelling on responses to some comment you made over a month ago?
No... That's the reason this post exists in the first place...
Yeah, I'm stumped. Was there actually a question?
posted by nanojath at 10:53 PM on July 6, 2006
No... Wait, was it because you appear to be dwelling on responses to some comment you made over a month ago?
No... That's the reason this post exists in the first place...
Yeah, I'm stumped. Was there actually a question?
posted by nanojath at 10:53 PM on July 6, 2006
My god, it's like one of those dreams where you're running and you can't drag your legs out of the quicksand.
My fucking thoughts, exactly.
Language isn't the only barrier to communication, oh stubborn one. It's quite clear from the beginning of the thread that she was able to speak Spanish if need be.
How did she finally communicate with them? With a show of authority. Specifically with one that wasn't likely to be female.
I quote:
I wrote up an official-looking notice (not explicitly saying who it was from) that the plugs were creating a fire hazard and that if they were plugged back in the police would be notified.
If you note her previous thread - yes, she already actually tried talking to them. Apparently in English and Spanish. The quizzical stares she recieved in reply? Sexism. "Ah, you're just a girl. I don't let girls tell me what to do."
This isn't an issue of race, it's an issue of cultural sexism. AmbroseChapel, this part is highlighted for your reading ease, please make a note of it and read it more than once. This isn't an issue of race, it's an issue of cultural sexism.
Machismo exists. And it exists not as some kind of underground thing, but as a cultural and culturally reinforced norm in many cultures in Latin America.
It's a cultural problem I'm well familiar with, and none of your politically correct handwringing and apologetics is going to eliminate this fact.
This the part that you're somehow stumbling upon. Once again: This isn't an issue of race, it's an issue of cultural sexism.
Q.E.D. my fucking fat ass, you duffer! *thwap* and furthermore *bonk*.
posted by loquacious at 11:37 PM on July 6, 2006
My fucking thoughts, exactly.
Language isn't the only barrier to communication, oh stubborn one. It's quite clear from the beginning of the thread that she was able to speak Spanish if need be.
How did she finally communicate with them? With a show of authority. Specifically with one that wasn't likely to be female.
I quote:
I wrote up an official-looking notice (not explicitly saying who it was from) that the plugs were creating a fire hazard and that if they were plugged back in the police would be notified.
If you note her previous thread - yes, she already actually tried talking to them. Apparently in English and Spanish. The quizzical stares she recieved in reply? Sexism. "Ah, you're just a girl. I don't let girls tell me what to do."
This isn't an issue of race, it's an issue of cultural sexism. AmbroseChapel, this part is highlighted for your reading ease, please make a note of it and read it more than once. This isn't an issue of race, it's an issue of cultural sexism.
Machismo exists. And it exists not as some kind of underground thing, but as a cultural and culturally reinforced norm in many cultures in Latin America.
It's a cultural problem I'm well familiar with, and none of your politically correct handwringing and apologetics is going to eliminate this fact.
This the part that you're somehow stumbling upon. Once again: This isn't an issue of race, it's an issue of cultural sexism.
Q.E.D. my fucking fat ass, you duffer! *thwap* and furthermore *bonk*.
posted by loquacious at 11:37 PM on July 6, 2006
HER: I have a problem with neighbours I can't communicate with because they're Latino.
YOU: Are you sure? Have you actually tried?
HER (after a brief pause): well whaddaya know! Turns out they speak perfect English.
Uh, she spoke spanish, so what does their ability to speak english have to do with their ability to communicate?
posted by delmoi at 12:53 AM on July 7, 2006
YOU: Are you sure? Have you actually tried?
HER (after a brief pause): well whaddaya know! Turns out they speak perfect English.
Uh, she spoke spanish, so what does their ability to speak english have to do with their ability to communicate?
posted by delmoi at 12:53 AM on July 7, 2006
It's like the Olympics of point-missing in here.
This is about assumptions. She assumed she couldn't communicate with them. She was wrong. So my questioning her assumptions was a lot better for everyone than loquacious posting "all mexicans are rapists and you should hit them with a baseball bat before they rape you".
posted by AmbroseChapel at 1:40 AM on July 7, 2006
This is about assumptions. She assumed she couldn't communicate with them. She was wrong. So my questioning her assumptions was a lot better for everyone than loquacious posting "all mexicans are rapists and you should hit them with a baseball bat before they rape you".
posted by AmbroseChapel at 1:40 AM on July 7, 2006
Those must be summary marks.
posted by fleacircus at 2:50 AM on July 7, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by fleacircus at 2:50 AM on July 7, 2006 [1 favorite]
I hope that's a seasonal thing.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:32 AM on July 7, 2006
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:32 AM on July 7, 2006
Ambrose? You really shouldn't use quotes for something that isn't a quote. G'day.
posted by loquacious at 4:23 AM on July 7, 2006
posted by loquacious at 4:23 AM on July 7, 2006
spics and haj[][j]is are the new nigger.
posted by youarenothere at 5:40 AM on July 7, 2006
posted by youarenothere at 5:40 AM on July 7, 2006
I can't believe you want to have this conversation again, Ambrose. The Olympics of point missing, indeed!
posted by OmieWise at 5:56 AM on July 7, 2006
posted by OmieWise at 5:56 AM on July 7, 2006
MetaTalk: cry in your cubicle next to your photos of other peoples' children
posted by matteo at 6:21 AM on July 7, 2006
posted by matteo at 6:21 AM on July 7, 2006
god dammit ambrose.
the problem wasn't that you asked what the relevance of them being latino was. the problem is that she immediately and satisfactorily answered you and you insisted on accusing her of racism anyway.
next time link to the actual meta thread you're complaining about, by the way. oh and next time don't post anything at all and keep your grudge bearing whiny shit off of meta in the first place.
posted by shmegegge at 7:45 AM on July 7, 2006
the problem wasn't that you asked what the relevance of them being latino was. the problem is that she immediately and satisfactorily answered you and you insisted on accusing her of racism anyway.
next time link to the actual meta thread you're complaining about, by the way. oh and next time don't post anything at all and keep your grudge bearing whiny shit off of meta in the first place.
posted by shmegegge at 7:45 AM on July 7, 2006
Seriously. For the permanent record and for those following along at home, I never said said what Ambrose quoted me as saying.
While most of you probably know that, I'm a bit pissed that this'll probably end up in google attributed to me.
Ambrose? You're not only an idiot, but you're a unrelenting fucktard. If you're simply a troll, congrats. My goat has been got. I'm pretty pissed. No one has ever so grossly misattributed or misquoted me on the web, and I'm perfectly willing to own up to every last character of every last crazy ass thing I've ever said. But I didn't say what you think I said. In another day and age, this would be pistols at dawn, sir. Actually, I think I'd prefer broadswords.
If you're not a troll, please be more careful with your quoting methods. But somehow I seriously doubt you even care, because you're consistently and utterly failing to grasp even or concede simple points even when laid out in logical and clear monosyllabics. Instead you keep on charging headlong willy-nilly, sanctimoniously tilting at non-existant windmills about something you once freely admitted you know little about, considering how you're on the other side of the planet, and then even on the wrong hemisphere.
You're seriously the first person that's ever made me want to install the greasemonkey script to block/filter users on MetaFilter. Considering all the mange-headed people I've ever tangled with on this site, that's saying something. Heck, you're the first user that's ever made me want to simply leave MetaFilter outright, or pull a "drakepool".
In closing - please go fuck a cactus. Seriously, get bent. Cheese it. Choke on a pretzel.
posted by loquacious at 9:15 AM on July 7, 2006 [4 favorites]
While most of you probably know that, I'm a bit pissed that this'll probably end up in google attributed to me.
Ambrose? You're not only an idiot, but you're a unrelenting fucktard. If you're simply a troll, congrats. My goat has been got. I'm pretty pissed. No one has ever so grossly misattributed or misquoted me on the web, and I'm perfectly willing to own up to every last character of every last crazy ass thing I've ever said. But I didn't say what you think I said. In another day and age, this would be pistols at dawn, sir. Actually, I think I'd prefer broadswords.
If you're not a troll, please be more careful with your quoting methods. But somehow I seriously doubt you even care, because you're consistently and utterly failing to grasp even or concede simple points even when laid out in logical and clear monosyllabics. Instead you keep on charging headlong willy-nilly, sanctimoniously tilting at non-existant windmills about something you once freely admitted you know little about, considering how you're on the other side of the planet, and then even on the wrong hemisphere.
You're seriously the first person that's ever made me want to install the greasemonkey script to block/filter users on MetaFilter. Considering all the mange-headed people I've ever tangled with on this site, that's saying something. Heck, you're the first user that's ever made me want to simply leave MetaFilter outright, or pull a "drakepool".
In closing - please go fuck a cactus. Seriously, get bent. Cheese it. Choke on a pretzel.
posted by loquacious at 9:15 AM on July 7, 2006 [4 favorites]
MeTa: where your point isn't made until you rub someone's nose in their own excrement like a little puppy.
posted by deadfather at 9:16 AM on July 7, 2006
posted by deadfather at 9:16 AM on July 7, 2006
And again for the semi-permanent google record in the sky, I said:
"Take a bat to one of their cars"
And the "rape" portion of his misquote comes from:
"They've disrespected you in a huge way. They've stolen water and power from you. What's it going to take for you to stand up for yourself and fight for yourself like the stupendous badass you are? Stealing something tangible from your home? Taking pictures through your window? Rape?"
At no point did I ever say "All" in that context of "all mexicans" - except to specifically point out that the exact contrary in the form of: "This is not at all to say that all Latino males are thus"
I never even used the word Mexican or Mexico - except to point out I fucking lived there in my footnote.
On preview: Yeah, I wasn't even done yet, deadfather. It's less now about convincing AmbroseChapel of anything and more about protecting myself against a complete and total fabrication of a quote against Google's cache.
posted by loquacious at 9:30 AM on July 7, 2006
"Take a bat to one of their cars"
And the "rape" portion of his misquote comes from:
"They've disrespected you in a huge way. They've stolen water and power from you. What's it going to take for you to stand up for yourself and fight for yourself like the stupendous badass you are? Stealing something tangible from your home? Taking pictures through your window? Rape?"
At no point did I ever say "All" in that context of "all mexicans" - except to specifically point out that the exact contrary in the form of: "This is not at all to say that all Latino males are thus"
I never even used the word Mexican or Mexico - except to point out I fucking lived there in my footnote.
On preview: Yeah, I wasn't even done yet, deadfather. It's less now about convincing AmbroseChapel of anything and more about protecting myself against a complete and total fabrication of a quote against Google's cache.
posted by loquacious at 9:30 AM on July 7, 2006
loquacious : "You're seriously the first person that's ever made me want to install the greasemonkey script to block/filter users on MetaFilter."
Loq,
If you're thinking of coming to the other side, I recommend Mondo Meta. MetaFilter has become a much more enjoyable place since I started using it.
posted by Bugbread at 9:39 AM on July 7, 2006
Loq,
If you're thinking of coming to the other side, I recommend Mondo Meta. MetaFilter has become a much more enjoyable place since I started using it.
posted by Bugbread at 9:39 AM on July 7, 2006
loq, honey, you could probably have just flagged the comment and/or e-mail matt and/or jess. They'd likely delete it, and it won't end up on google in the small span of time between comment written and comment deleted.
posted by raedyn at 9:41 AM on July 7, 2006
posted by raedyn at 9:41 AM on July 7, 2006
Man, I keep hoping to find that great Internets is Serious Business with the dudes punching the girl (and I was hoping that this thread would have it), but I can't seem to.
posted by klangklangston at 10:57 AM on July 7, 2006
posted by klangklangston at 10:57 AM on July 7, 2006
She assumed she couldn't communicate with them. She was wrong.
No, she did not assume she couldn't communicate with them. She thought she might have to communicate with them in spanish, but that wasn't a problem. Her question was not "since I can't communicate with them, what should I do"; it was "should I try communicating with them directly or have a third party / authority figure handle it". she was advised to go a sort of middle way of leaving an anonymous but official looking note, which worked out. If they had not spoken english, that might have been more difficult to pull off, but otherwise this was a complete side-issue.
posted by mdn at 12:36 PM on July 7, 2006
No, she did not assume she couldn't communicate with them. She thought she might have to communicate with them in spanish, but that wasn't a problem. Her question was not "since I can't communicate with them, what should I do"; it was "should I try communicating with them directly or have a third party / authority figure handle it". she was advised to go a sort of middle way of leaving an anonymous but official looking note, which worked out. If they had not spoken english, that might have been more difficult to pull off, but otherwise this was a complete side-issue.
posted by mdn at 12:36 PM on July 7, 2006
"She assumed she couldn't communicate with them. She was wrong."
If you really were following this issue then you'd know that there was an attempt at communication over this group of guys using her water and that this took a while to resolve - and in fact they did not listen to her and it took the apt. manager to resolve. In other words, she was trying to communicate and the message not getting across. In such a situation it's completely ok to ask "am I doing something wrong in that maybe I'm missing something that can be explained by the culture and my lack of knowledge?" As in, "is it normal to hang out on someone's steps that doesn't belong to you?" I should add that in some places I've lived that seems to be ok - in some places it can get you shot, no matter what your ethnicity. And when I was a single female living alone I would have been worried about this group of guys, again regardless of the ethnicity involved.
In other words, you are being a troll AC. Give it up. AskMe is not the place for such lectures.
posted by batgrlHG at 2:37 PM on July 7, 2006
If you really were following this issue then you'd know that there was an attempt at communication over this group of guys using her water and that this took a while to resolve - and in fact they did not listen to her and it took the apt. manager to resolve. In other words, she was trying to communicate and the message not getting across. In such a situation it's completely ok to ask "am I doing something wrong in that maybe I'm missing something that can be explained by the culture and my lack of knowledge?" As in, "is it normal to hang out on someone's steps that doesn't belong to you?" I should add that in some places I've lived that seems to be ok - in some places it can get you shot, no matter what your ethnicity. And when I was a single female living alone I would have been worried about this group of guys, again regardless of the ethnicity involved.
In other words, you are being a troll AC. Give it up. AskMe is not the place for such lectures.
posted by batgrlHG at 2:37 PM on July 7, 2006
The difference is that one is explained by magic and the other by a simple deception you don't remember even though it really happened.
posted by Falconetti at 2:46 PM on July 7, 2006
posted by Falconetti at 2:46 PM on July 7, 2006
Huh, I thought it was only on network TV that you got reruns in the summer.
posted by phearlez at 3:02 PM on July 7, 2006
posted by phearlez at 3:02 PM on July 7, 2006
In other words, you are being a troll AC. Give it up. AskMe is not the place for such lectures.
THANK YOU!
Luv,
the obviously anti-Latino OP, who happens to speak Spanish, has worked in a Mexican restaurant and is from California
P.S. If you are curious: further incidents not directly relating to original problem caused NOPD to get involved, and the owner of the construction company that rents the units fired 13 of them (who had aparently been giving him trouble on the worksite) so things have been a lot quieter...Except now I discover (via a note from the Water Dist that was accidentally left on my front door) that the downstairs unit doesn't have water turned on, which explains why my water bill is so farkin high! *sigh*
posted by radioamy at 1:28 AM on July 9, 2006
THANK YOU!
Luv,
the obviously anti-Latino OP, who happens to speak Spanish, has worked in a Mexican restaurant and is from California
P.S. If you are curious: further incidents not directly relating to original problem caused NOPD to get involved, and the owner of the construction company that rents the units fired 13 of them (who had aparently been giving him trouble on the worksite) so things have been a lot quieter...Except now I discover (via a note from the Water Dist that was accidentally left on my front door) that the downstairs unit doesn't have water turned on, which explains why my water bill is so farkin high! *sigh*
posted by radioamy at 1:28 AM on July 9, 2006
loquacious has taken the trouble to email me personally and direct me to Amy's post. He seems to think it's proven some point.
Unless the point is:
I do see people who have learned to use the phrase "cultural differences" as a code word though.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 1:02 PM on July 9, 2006
Unless the point is:
- people who speak spanish, work in Mexican restaurants and come from California can't be racist, or
- if the "Mexicans" really were stealing her electricity/water, she can't be racist, or
- if the "Mexicans" have committed any illegal activity, she can't be racist
I do see people who have learned to use the phrase "cultural differences" as a code word though.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 1:02 PM on July 9, 2006
So, you don't have anything to say about misquoting me? Not even a nod or hint you might have screwed up?
Figures. I guess I shouldn't ask an asshole for anything but shit.
posted by loquacious at 1:43 PM on July 9, 2006
Figures. I guess I shouldn't ask an asshole for anything but shit.
posted by loquacious at 1:43 PM on July 9, 2006
"I do see people who have learned to use the phrase "cultural differences" as a code word though."
Not sure who that was directed to but actually people who have different cultural backgrounds than I do have been happy to explain that when situations have arisen that cause me not to understand what's going on. And yes, it has been due to the fact that I didn't have any knowledge of what was happening due to the situation being with a certain ethnicity. As in when dealing with in one instance some Moroccan men and in other instances some latino men. So if you want to call that racism, that's actually more telling of you than of me - it was the people in that culture who took me aside to interpret things that were going on who basically said "look, this is what's happening, this is the way the guys are interpreting this situation." If you don't think things are different in neighborhoods that are more latino than say, where I grew up in white bread waspy Kansas, well, you need to get out more. If it makes you feel better we could call it "people from area X" rather than ethnicity X. Though I notice my latino friends call their comminity by that rather than Californian or Texan. Frankly I appreciate when they help me when I'm clueless.
Also - did radioamy use the word "Mexicans" in describing anything but the restaurant in the line above? (It is commonly called Mexican food, not latino food you know.) That means something specific and mostly negative in the latino community btw. I've never used that term. It's interesting how you've somehow become the arbitor of all racism in these threads, as if the rest of us obviously need help.
(Yeah sorry, I'm feeding the troll. I should know better and let him starve, but what can you do.)
posted by batgrlHG at 4:03 PM on July 9, 2006
Not sure who that was directed to but actually people who have different cultural backgrounds than I do have been happy to explain that when situations have arisen that cause me not to understand what's going on. And yes, it has been due to the fact that I didn't have any knowledge of what was happening due to the situation being with a certain ethnicity. As in when dealing with in one instance some Moroccan men and in other instances some latino men. So if you want to call that racism, that's actually more telling of you than of me - it was the people in that culture who took me aside to interpret things that were going on who basically said "look, this is what's happening, this is the way the guys are interpreting this situation." If you don't think things are different in neighborhoods that are more latino than say, where I grew up in white bread waspy Kansas, well, you need to get out more. If it makes you feel better we could call it "people from area X" rather than ethnicity X. Though I notice my latino friends call their comminity by that rather than Californian or Texan. Frankly I appreciate when they help me when I'm clueless.
Also - did radioamy use the word "Mexicans" in describing anything but the restaurant in the line above? (It is commonly called Mexican food, not latino food you know.) That means something specific and mostly negative in the latino community btw. I've never used that term. It's interesting how you've somehow become the arbitor of all racism in these threads, as if the rest of us obviously need help.
(Yeah sorry, I'm feeding the troll. I should know better and let him starve, but what can you do.)
posted by batgrlHG at 4:03 PM on July 9, 2006
batgrlHG : "did radioamy use the word 'Mexicans' in describing anything but the restaurant in the line above? (It is commonly called Mexican food, not latino food you know.) That means something specific and mostly negative in the latino community btw."
I hope that was a slip of the phrasing, because otherwise, it would imply that the latino community thought negatively of people from Mexico, which would be, I suppose, racism.
posted by Bugbread at 4:37 PM on July 9, 2006
I hope that was a slip of the phrasing, because otherwise, it would imply that the latino community thought negatively of people from Mexico, which would be, I suppose, racism.
posted by Bugbread at 4:37 PM on July 9, 2006
Actually bugbread, there are some negative feelings among the latino communities - at least that I know of in San Antonio, probably elsewhere - towards Mexicans who cross the border into Texas to live and work there. I know that in the 80s some latinos I knew would refer to "those Mexicans" meaning a specific group of people - and it was definitely derogatory. (And yeah, sounded racist to me - but then I can talk about rednecks in that same way, having seen a lot of what white people in the south will do, and with knowledge that some of those redneck stereotypes are true. I won't go into my relatives and their examples, heh.) I think they used Mexican the same way some people use "beaner" today. The folk I knew were older, and their parents were US citizens (though perhaps not their grandparents).
And as always - no, not ALL latinos. I do not mean to make wide sweeping statements. I said "mostly negative." And I know that I once referred to a group as Mexican Americans and was then told, nope, "latino" or "hispanic" is more acceptable, that Mexican American is both inaccurate and to some extremely insulting. I have however been laughed at for using "hispanic" rather than "latino" (I think use of that word depends on region, I dunno). Happily now that I'm out of academia I seem to get only get into these discussions online.
posted by batgrlHG at 11:23 PM on July 9, 2006
And as always - no, not ALL latinos. I do not mean to make wide sweeping statements. I said "mostly negative." And I know that I once referred to a group as Mexican Americans and was then told, nope, "latino" or "hispanic" is more acceptable, that Mexican American is both inaccurate and to some extremely insulting. I have however been laughed at for using "hispanic" rather than "latino" (I think use of that word depends on region, I dunno). Happily now that I'm out of academia I seem to get only get into these discussions online.
posted by batgrlHG at 11:23 PM on July 9, 2006
Loquacious, thanks for trying. You can't change some people. *shrug*
posted by radioamy at 1:03 AM on July 10, 2006
posted by radioamy at 1:03 AM on July 10, 2006
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posted by Orange Goblin at 2:21 PM on July 6, 2006