Argh, another Israel/Palestine post! June 6, 2002 6:01 AM Subscribe
The I/P FPP nightmare is back with a vengeance. Three of them only yesterday. Even Evanizer can't stand this anymore. I know it's been discussed before, but what about a limit of let's say 2 I/P threads a day? Since they become painful flame wars anyway, 2 is more than enough isn't it?
I think this is a bit of a dead horse, matteo. MeTa can't impose a moratorium, and Matt won't. If you want to cut down the I/P threads, you must simply not post/comment in them. If you do like them, you'll do the opposite.
One proactive alternative that's been suggested, however, is that someone from here make an I/P post every day, which links to something useful and says "Please deposit any Middle-East discussion in this thread." That way, at least, there aren't numerous redundant posts.
posted by Marquis at 6:36 AM on June 6, 2002
One proactive alternative that's been suggested, however, is that someone from here make an I/P post every day, which links to something useful and says "Please deposit any Middle-East discussion in this thread." That way, at least, there aren't numerous redundant posts.
posted by Marquis at 6:36 AM on June 6, 2002
I hear you. But you know what? For example if you consider good online forums about pets for example, they won't allow discussion of certain stuff, like animal rights, because it's too sensitive a topic, and it generates useless flame wars
That way, they keep good comments about let's say dogs or cats health both from Vegan users and meat-eating users as well
Nothing here on MeFi I think, not even the Florida 2000 mess, generated the kind of trouble that I/P provoke
And yes, I sometimes post in I/P threads because it's an emotional issue and sometimes you just can't be silent.
I know that Matt's advice is not to read those threads, but ---
posted by matteo at 6:49 AM on June 6, 2002
That way, they keep good comments about let's say dogs or cats health both from Vegan users and meat-eating users as well
Nothing here on MeFi I think, not even the Florida 2000 mess, generated the kind of trouble that I/P provoke
And yes, I sometimes post in I/P threads because it's an emotional issue and sometimes you just can't be silent.
I know that Matt's advice is not to read those threads, but ---
posted by matteo at 6:49 AM on June 6, 2002
Ah, how difficult it must be for some to exercise a little willpower and skip over a post that a) doesn't interest them or b) has the strong potential to offend them! And how much easier to try to censor it for the rest of us.
posted by rushmc at 7:01 AM on June 6, 2002
posted by rushmc at 7:01 AM on June 6, 2002
"I know that Matt's advice is not to read those threads, but ---"
but what? you have no willpower? sheesh man. how much inner strength does it take to NOT click the mouse button once in a while...?
posted by jcterminal at 7:07 AM on June 6, 2002
but what? you have no willpower? sheesh man. how much inner strength does it take to NOT click the mouse button once in a while...?
posted by jcterminal at 7:07 AM on June 6, 2002
Funnily enough, I think the best way to make I/P threads more interesting and persuasive is for more people to post to them, especially the non-aligned majority whose opinions are fresh and not dictated to by religious or political loyalties.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 7:31 AM on June 6, 2002
posted by MiguelCardoso at 7:31 AM on June 6, 2002
how much inner strength does it take to NOT click the mouse button once in a while...?
oh, you're so funny, you're so cool, you're SO strong, man...
And it's not about being "offended" rushmc
Some of the worst flame wars (post- 9/11, war vs peace, USA vs Europe for example) cost MetaFilter many good users who simply got tired of the bad manners and the dumb arguments expressed by many, just read old threads and see how many we've lost
MeFi's health does not depend only on how many new users do we accept every month. But also on how many flame wars and trolls we allow to prosper.
It's not censorship, I assume you're either in bad faith on this or you didn't read my post. I only say, let's limit FPP's about I/P, since they can easily turn into brawls (they did in the past).
posted by matteo at 7:49 AM on June 6, 2002
oh, you're so funny, you're so cool, you're SO strong, man...
And it's not about being "offended" rushmc
Some of the worst flame wars (post- 9/11, war vs peace, USA vs Europe for example) cost MetaFilter many good users who simply got tired of the bad manners and the dumb arguments expressed by many, just read old threads and see how many we've lost
MeFi's health does not depend only on how many new users do we accept every month. But also on how many flame wars and trolls we allow to prosper.
It's not censorship, I assume you're either in bad faith on this or you didn't read my post. I only say, let's limit FPP's about I/P, since they can easily turn into brawls (they did in the past).
posted by matteo at 7:49 AM on June 6, 2002
matteo, while Middle East threads are annoying, in recent days/weeks, they seemed to have subsided, slightly. About a week ago I was getting incredibly pissed off with the number of FBI threads. A few months ago, a bunch of Enron threads. And back during 9/11, well, every other post was related.
While I believe that sometimes a public announcement is useful, people will post whatever they feel like posting. I've noticed a specific poster who has had a front page post every day, or almost every day, for the past week or two. Almost every post is incredibly controversial, and usually Middle East-related. I'd love to bring that here, but the poster doesn't deserve to be dragged out here, just because I'm annoyed.
Eh, I suppose my conclusion is that certain subjects are like the tide.
Some of the worst flame wars (post- 9/11, war vs peace, USA vs Europe for example) cost MetaFilter many good users who simply got tired of the bad manners and the dumb arguments expressed by many, just read old threads and see how many we've lost
Some people just grow out of MetaFilter, matteo. You have to admit, if MeFi was a party, especially since new user signups are closed, the crowd here is sometimes tiresome to look at. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy this party. But some others have moved on.
posted by BlueTrain at 7:55 AM on June 6, 2002
While I believe that sometimes a public announcement is useful, people will post whatever they feel like posting. I've noticed a specific poster who has had a front page post every day, or almost every day, for the past week or two. Almost every post is incredibly controversial, and usually Middle East-related. I'd love to bring that here, but the poster doesn't deserve to be dragged out here, just because I'm annoyed.
Eh, I suppose my conclusion is that certain subjects are like the tide.
Some of the worst flame wars (post- 9/11, war vs peace, USA vs Europe for example) cost MetaFilter many good users who simply got tired of the bad manners and the dumb arguments expressed by many, just read old threads and see how many we've lost
Some people just grow out of MetaFilter, matteo. You have to admit, if MeFi was a party, especially since new user signups are closed, the crowd here is sometimes tiresome to look at. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy this party. But some others have moved on.
posted by BlueTrain at 7:55 AM on June 6, 2002
"Funnily enough, I think the best way to make I/P threads more interesting and persuasive is for more people to post to them, especially the non-aligned majority whose opinions are fresh and not dictated to by religious or political loyalties."
somebody get a bucket.
posted by clavdivs at 7:59 AM on June 6, 2002
somebody get a bucket.
posted by clavdivs at 7:59 AM on June 6, 2002
I wouldn't worry about jcterminal, matteo, he's uber-cool about all sorts of serious discussion. Don't let your pesky politics and emotions get in the way of his superb japery, man.
I'm curious, why am I a benchmark for proving that I/P threads are tiresome? I feel like Mikey being fed Life cereal: "I/P threads, supposed to be good for you. Let's ask Evan, he hates everything". I generally avoid these threads, and certainly would never start one of my own. Why me?
posted by evanizer at 8:09 AM on June 6, 2002
I'm curious, why am I a benchmark for proving that I/P threads are tiresome? I feel like Mikey being fed Life cereal: "I/P threads, supposed to be good for you. Let's ask Evan, he hates everything". I generally avoid these threads, and certainly would never start one of my own. Why me?
posted by evanizer at 8:09 AM on June 6, 2002
There's supposed to be a link in there:
"...all sorts of serious discussion..."
posted by evanizer at 8:11 AM on June 6, 2002
"...all sorts of serious discussion..."
posted by evanizer at 8:11 AM on June 6, 2002
I wondered why evanizer was chosen as an example. I'm really sick of people (myself included) turning meta into the same ole moratorium on the way people ought not to behave. Is there some euro- precedent that delineates people from yelling at another then perhaps, heavens forbid, work through this. (preferably without creating a "scene" upon the blue.)
posted by clavdivs at 8:22 AM on June 6, 2002
posted by clavdivs at 8:22 AM on June 6, 2002
it's fine to post threads about something you're interested in. those threads are usually pretty good. i'll give paris credit. if you bother to look at his recent front page postings, he hasn't posted many I/P threads over the past few months. but he is a known contributor to those threads when they do pop up, and i think he's brought himself to the point where people just roll their eyes when he posts about the situation. i think if you find yourself in such a situation, though, it's probably a good idea to step back and ask yourself why and what you could change. if you want to bag on anybody for I/P posts, you ought to bag on postroad. he's one of the worst offenders, if not the worst.
posted by moz at 8:26 AM on June 6, 2002
posted by moz at 8:26 AM on June 6, 2002
Reading this post immediately reminded me of this post, the one that mentions rodii. Perhaps we should stop singling people out and just post our thoughts without dragging in unwilling accomplices. It implies that they endorse your post when you mention them, and that implication would be misleading, as their comments in the thread always seem to prove.
posted by iconomy at 8:59 AM on June 6, 2002
posted by iconomy at 8:59 AM on June 6, 2002
eh. there are topics for each of us that we don't care for, that you can scroll past no problem, and that's fine.
But I think that there is a separate issue with I/P posts, along with certain other topics, which is that for some reason people think it's okay to flame, rather than to discuss. I think that *is* a problem, and it's got nothing to do with "if you aren't interested, don't read it." it's got to do with the imminent demise of civility on MetaFilter. Can't we all just get along? ---apparently not, unless the topic is kitty photographs. (And given the immediate previous MeTa thread, perhaps not even then!)
I don't know what the answer is, and generally I do avoid the I/P threads, but I think matteo has a valid thought there, and didn't want to see it dismissed with the usual, superficial "may I introduce you to the scrollbar" non-answer.
posted by Sapphireblue at 9:00 AM on June 6, 2002
But I think that there is a separate issue with I/P posts, along with certain other topics, which is that for some reason people think it's okay to flame, rather than to discuss. I think that *is* a problem, and it's got nothing to do with "if you aren't interested, don't read it." it's got to do with the imminent demise of civility on MetaFilter. Can't we all just get along? ---apparently not, unless the topic is kitty photographs. (And given the immediate previous MeTa thread, perhaps not even then!)
I don't know what the answer is, and generally I do avoid the I/P threads, but I think matteo has a valid thought there, and didn't want to see it dismissed with the usual, superficial "may I introduce you to the scrollbar" non-answer.
posted by Sapphireblue at 9:00 AM on June 6, 2002
iconomy
I'm not dragging anybody, and don't need endorsements if I want to make a point, thank you.
As I already privately explained to evanizer, I mentioned him because, to me, he represents a decent person with opinions but who's willing to listen, pretty open when it comes to diversity of opinions here on MeFi. When he wrote in the latest I/P thread that "I really don't see what we can gain by going over this again. It's ended up being a boring game of ping pong time and time again, except with sharp, hurtful ping pong balls" I think he used a good metaphor and made a great point. that's all
posted by matteo at 9:27 AM on June 6, 2002
I'm not dragging anybody, and don't need endorsements if I want to make a point, thank you.
As I already privately explained to evanizer, I mentioned him because, to me, he represents a decent person with opinions but who's willing to listen, pretty open when it comes to diversity of opinions here on MeFi. When he wrote in the latest I/P thread that "I really don't see what we can gain by going over this again. It's ended up being a boring game of ping pong time and time again, except with sharp, hurtful ping pong balls" I think he used a good metaphor and made a great point. that's all
posted by matteo at 9:27 AM on June 6, 2002
I would like to offer myself up as an example for everyone to follow.
That way no one else will be offended by being singled out. If you want to single someone out, replace them with me.
As for limiting threads because you are tired of the flotsam, I agree you should just not click into it. I was going to respond to Paris, but, y'know, I've already said everything I could say on the subject. Yesterday at lunch, I had a 5 minute conversation with the other people around the bar area when the news flashed up about it, we all agreed both sides are just stupid, Arafat is just an easy whipping boy, and why in hell would anyone elect a General to be a diplomatic leader?
Then we went on to discuss how the US is so way cooler than Portugal. And how any sport where people celebrate a draw is vastly superior to ones where winning is the only thing that makes them happy.
posted by rich at 9:37 AM on June 6, 2002
That way no one else will be offended by being singled out. If you want to single someone out, replace them with me.
As for limiting threads because you are tired of the flotsam, I agree you should just not click into it. I was going to respond to Paris, but, y'know, I've already said everything I could say on the subject. Yesterday at lunch, I had a 5 minute conversation with the other people around the bar area when the news flashed up about it, we all agreed both sides are just stupid, Arafat is just an easy whipping boy, and why in hell would anyone elect a General to be a diplomatic leader?
Then we went on to discuss how the US is so way cooler than Portugal. And how any sport where people celebrate a draw is vastly superior to ones where winning is the only thing that makes them happy.
posted by rich at 9:37 AM on June 6, 2002
Matteo emailed me after I posted my above comment, explaining using me as an example. I wasn't annoyed, just curious why I was mentioned, and he explained it, so all is well.
posted by evanizer at 10:32 AM on June 6, 2002
posted by evanizer at 10:32 AM on June 6, 2002
Oh man, this could be so liberating. I have to try this out:
Even long standing members like rich are tired of having sex with donkeys.
I don't know. It wasn't as good as I was hoping it would be. But then posts about donkey sex never really are.
posted by willnot at 10:54 AM on June 6, 2002
Even long standing members like rich are tired of having sex with donkeys.
I don't know. It wasn't as good as I was hoping it would be. But then posts about donkey sex never really are.
posted by willnot at 10:54 AM on June 6, 2002
I want to give this a whirl, too.
*throat clearing*
Why, it's getting to where rich can't even beat a dead horse without rich getting all snarky about it.
*pregnant pause*
You're right, it does leave something lacking.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:07 PM on June 6, 2002
*throat clearing*
Why, it's getting to where rich can't even beat a dead horse without rich getting all snarky about it.
*pregnant pause*
You're right, it does leave something lacking.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:07 PM on June 6, 2002
I find it so nice to browse by, have a click through the I/P URLs, and learn a little something -- or not. MeFi is my secondary source for news, right after the New York Times, so I'm very grateful people are out there scouring on behalf of my lazy behind.
It's SO much nicer that, as an MeFi I/P conscientious objector, I don't get to click on the big shiny candy-colored "comments" link, and therefore have no clue what acrimonious and illogical discussions might be lurking under the secret blue fold. Rich taught me how! God, you're right, this "Rich" thing is highly ungratifying
posted by RJ Reynolds at 12:21 PM on June 6, 2002
It's SO much nicer that, as an MeFi I/P conscientious objector, I don't get to click on the big shiny candy-colored "comments" link, and therefore have no clue what acrimonious and illogical discussions might be lurking under the secret blue fold. Rich taught me how! God, you're right, this "Rich" thing is highly ungratifying
posted by RJ Reynolds at 12:21 PM on June 6, 2002
now I/P can stand for india/pakistan, just act confused in the I/P threads and maybe people will get so pissed off they run around waving their arms in the air.
it's good to have so many destabilized regions acronyms overlap...
posted by rhyax at 1:30 PM on June 6, 2002
it's good to have so many destabilized regions acronyms overlap...
posted by rhyax at 1:30 PM on June 6, 2002
I *have* been confused. It was a couple of weeks before I figured out that "I/P" meant "Israel/Palestine" and not "India/Pakistan".
The latter conflict is much more interesting.
Is there any way of stirring up a war between Iceland and Portugal? Perhaps they could have some disagreement about fishing rights in the North Atlantic.
posted by Mars Saxman at 2:08 PM on June 6, 2002
The latter conflict is much more interesting.
Is there any way of stirring up a war between Iceland and Portugal? Perhaps they could have some disagreement about fishing rights in the North Atlantic.
posted by Mars Saxman at 2:08 PM on June 6, 2002
Seems to me the topics of more immediate concern are the other I/P and 4GW.
posted by sheauga at 3:41 PM on June 6, 2002
posted by sheauga at 3:41 PM on June 6, 2002
matteo: Some of the worst flame wars (post- 9/11, war vs peace, USA vs Europe for example) cost MetaFilter many good users who simply got tired of the bad manners and the dumb arguments expressed by many
I submit that their loss is (far) greater than ours.
If someone tires of a subject, or the treatment that subject receives on Metafilter, and tires of trying to effect a change in that particular discussion, then it is a very simple matter for them to avoid the (relatively few) threads that touch on that subject. There is much more to discover and discuss on Metafilter than I/P (however one chooses to define it), and if someone feels they need to flee the site entirely to escape what they can no longer endure in a couple threads...well, I would argue that they are overreacting in the extreme. There are a lot of potential reasons one might leave Metafilter, but that seems to me to be about the worst imaginable.
Sapphireblue: But I think that there is a separate issue with I/P posts, along with certain other topics, which is that for some reason people think it's okay to flame, rather than to discuss. I think that *is* a problem, and it's got nothing to do with "if you aren't interested, don't read it." it's got to do with the imminent demise of civility on MetaFilter.
I disagree. Civility is a separate issue, that applies to all posts and threads. The solution to incivility is the same everywhere: try to set a good example, even (especially) when provoked; address egregious violations to raise awareness (particularly in the offender) and ensure that the community standard is not lowered through neglect; and, if all your attempts fail and your patience wears out, avoid the posters and/or discussions that you find excessively provoking. Therefore, "if you aren't interested, don't read it" remains the very best advice one can give to others...and to ourselves.
posted by rushmc at 6:43 PM on June 6, 2002
I submit that their loss is (far) greater than ours.
If someone tires of a subject, or the treatment that subject receives on Metafilter, and tires of trying to effect a change in that particular discussion, then it is a very simple matter for them to avoid the (relatively few) threads that touch on that subject. There is much more to discover and discuss on Metafilter than I/P (however one chooses to define it), and if someone feels they need to flee the site entirely to escape what they can no longer endure in a couple threads...well, I would argue that they are overreacting in the extreme. There are a lot of potential reasons one might leave Metafilter, but that seems to me to be about the worst imaginable.
Sapphireblue: But I think that there is a separate issue with I/P posts, along with certain other topics, which is that for some reason people think it's okay to flame, rather than to discuss. I think that *is* a problem, and it's got nothing to do with "if you aren't interested, don't read it." it's got to do with the imminent demise of civility on MetaFilter.
I disagree. Civility is a separate issue, that applies to all posts and threads. The solution to incivility is the same everywhere: try to set a good example, even (especially) when provoked; address egregious violations to raise awareness (particularly in the offender) and ensure that the community standard is not lowered through neglect; and, if all your attempts fail and your patience wears out, avoid the posters and/or discussions that you find excessively provoking. Therefore, "if you aren't interested, don't read it" remains the very best advice one can give to others...and to ourselves.
posted by rushmc at 6:43 PM on June 6, 2002
...but what about a limit of let's say 2 I/P threads a day? Since they become painful flame wars anyway, 2 is more than enough isn't it?
Ah, yes...the "inflammation" issue again...painful "flame wars"...horrible...horrendous posts.
Yeah, let's keep heated discussion and passion about unimportant issues like war and suffering to a minimum here, shall we?
Maybe we can change the name to MetaFlacid, too.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:51 AM on June 7, 2002
Ah, yes...the "inflammation" issue again...painful "flame wars"...horrible...horrendous posts.
Yeah, let's keep heated discussion and passion about unimportant issues like war and suffering to a minimum here, shall we?
Maybe we can change the name to MetaFlacid, too.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:51 AM on June 7, 2002
Because, you know, rational people trying to discuss issues rationally is a bad thing. Far, far better to piss all over each other constantly, right?
Fuckwit.
posted by darukaru at 3:14 AM on June 7, 2002
Fuckwit.
posted by darukaru at 3:14 AM on June 7, 2002
My cat's breath smells like cat food.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:15 AM on June 7, 2002
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:15 AM on June 7, 2002
Or--here's a thought--you could learn to control your bladder and try to "discuss issues rationally" in ALL the threads on Metafilter in which you participate, regardless of the topic.
posted by rushmc at 4:16 AM on June 7, 2002
posted by rushmc at 4:16 AM on June 7, 2002
I've lost it here more than once with more than one person, myself, skallas, and I'm not exactly proud of it. What you have written above here is food for thought.
And that link of yours kept me awake, sheauga. Lord, the world gets scarier every day.
posted by y2karl at 8:07 AM on June 7, 2002
And that link of yours kept me awake, sheauga. Lord, the world gets scarier every day.
posted by y2karl at 8:07 AM on June 7, 2002
(sorry, that was more crude than hum'rous, wasn't it?)
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:11 PM on June 7, 2002
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:11 PM on June 7, 2002
[kinda drunk]
Actually stavros, I felt that your comment was fucking hilarious, and unworthy of comment. Rock on dude.
(I would end the kinda drunk tag, but shit, I'm going to be drunk for a long time. Wheee!!!!!!)
posted by BlueTrain at 11:50 PM on June 7, 2002
Actually stavros, I felt that your comment was fucking hilarious, and unworthy of comment. Rock on dude.
(I would end the kinda drunk tag, but shit, I'm going to be drunk for a long time. Wheee!!!!!!)
posted by BlueTrain at 11:50 PM on June 7, 2002
Why do I/P threads create such flamewars? Most people I know don't care that much about Intellectual Property issues.
posted by mecran01 at 4:18 AM on June 9, 2002
posted by mecran01 at 4:18 AM on June 9, 2002
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posted by matteo at 6:11 AM on June 6, 2002