fight for your rights in your own damn country, americans February 21, 2007 6:15 AM Subscribe
"I don't like war, but my child is in there, fighting for your rights (Americia)." is, as edgeways says, inflammatory. [more inside]
Meh, leave it. Best case scenario, JujuB learns that anti-war people aren't bad people (and gets some good answers). Worst case, it spirals out of control into a "yes you are", "no we aren't" flamefest and then Matt and Jess can clean it up.
posted by Plutor at 6:24 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by Plutor at 6:24 AM on February 21, 2007
Thanks for the idiocallout, this will save me from writing you an email asking you to not shit in AskMe threads in the future. Unless questions are totally over the top and we have the OPs permission, we don't edit them. It might have been nice if the OP had left that part out to keep people like you from getting huffy about it, but she's newish, stressed out, and most people seem to be able to act like adults and answer the question or skip it.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:26 AM on February 21, 2007 [14 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:26 AM on February 21, 2007 [14 favorites]
Wow. Best Jessadmin reply ever.
Props to Jessadmin as usual for doing what she does best.
posted by SpecialK at 6:29 AM on February 21, 2007
Props to Jessadmin as usual for doing what she does best.
posted by SpecialK at 6:29 AM on February 21, 2007
Wow, that told me. I'll just go clean up my monitor, then go donate some cash to the red cross to clean up after the yankee imperialist running dogs who need all the support from their mums they can get whilst killing a-rabs. Cheerio!
posted by handee at 6:31 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by handee at 6:31 AM on February 21, 2007
Does "idiocallout" mean "self-callout"? (This appears to be the first use of such a word.) At first I thought it was just insulting, but actually it's kind of cool.
posted by grobstein at 6:35 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by grobstein at 6:35 AM on February 21, 2007
Jessamyn is in there, fighting for your rights (MetaTalk).
posted by Rhomboid at 6:39 AM on February 21, 2007 [4 favorites]
posted by Rhomboid at 6:39 AM on February 21, 2007 [4 favorites]
yankee imperialist running dogs who need all the support from their mums they can get whilst killing a-
= WAAAAAAAH WAAAAH
posted by thirteenkiller at 6:39 AM on February 21, 2007
= WAAAAAAAH WAAAAH
posted by thirteenkiller at 6:39 AM on February 21, 2007
Oh, and idiocallout sounds like something House would say... "idiopathic... from the Latin for 'you're an idiot'"
posted by Rhomboid at 6:40 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Rhomboid at 6:40 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
In her defense, we do tend to be assholes about this kind of thing. I'm just saying.
posted by ColdChef at 6:41 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by ColdChef at 6:41 AM on February 21, 2007
handee : "Wow, that told me. I'll just go clean up my monitor, then go donate some cash to the red cross to clean up after the yankee imperialist running dogs who need all the support from their mums they can get whilst killing a-rabs. Cheerio!"
That seems like it would be an almost infinitely more productive approach.
posted by Bugbread at 6:45 AM on February 21, 2007
That seems like it would be an almost infinitely more productive approach.
posted by Bugbread at 6:45 AM on February 21, 2007
Does "idiocallout" mean "self-callout"?
Yeah.
handee, I'm not sure what you were expecting here. You went against the guidelines and the specific request of the OP just so you could... what? Complain about the US's involvement in Iraq and elsewhere. There are many many people who agree with that perspective here on MetaFilter, but that's no reason to dump in a thread on an only loosely related topic.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:47 AM on February 21, 2007
Yeah.
handee, I'm not sure what you were expecting here. You went against the guidelines and the specific request of the OP just so you could... what? Complain about the US's involvement in Iraq and elsewhere. There are many many people who agree with that perspective here on MetaFilter, but that's no reason to dump in a thread on an only loosely related topic.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:47 AM on February 21, 2007
idio-, idi- (Greek: peculiar, one’s own, personal, private; of or pertaining to one’s self; distinct, separate, alone).
Awesome! Great new word! Until we all start using it in MetaTalk and warp it from it's original meaning, confusing new users and frustrating old users...
posted by Bugg at 6:54 AM on February 21, 2007
Awesome! Great new word! Until we all start using it in MetaTalk and warp it from it's original meaning, confusing new users and frustrating old users...
posted by Bugg at 6:54 AM on February 21, 2007
You know what pissed me off?
Help me learn about personal finances... Canadian style.
I'll just go clean up my monitor, then go donate some cash to Le ministère des Finances Canada to clean up after the conçoit les politiques fiscales who need all the support from their institutions financières canadiennes they can get whilst learning about personal finances. À bientôt!
posted by ND¢ at 6:55 AM on February 21, 2007 [6 favorites]
Help me learn about personal finances... Canadian style.
I'll just go clean up my monitor, then go donate some cash to Le ministère des Finances Canada to clean up after the conçoit les politiques fiscales who need all the support from their institutions financières canadiennes they can get whilst learning about personal finances. À bientôt!
posted by ND¢ at 6:55 AM on February 21, 2007 [6 favorites]
it's a tragedy that this user's son was drafted
posted by matteo at 6:56 AM on February 21, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by matteo at 6:56 AM on February 21, 2007 [2 favorites]
it's a tragedy that this user signed her son up for the military and should be punished accordingly
posted by ND¢ at 6:58 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by ND¢ at 6:58 AM on February 21, 2007
If you are anti- war, please hold your comments,
Just so I'm clear ... posting restrictions on who may and may not answer your question is frowned upon, no? I understand "she's newish, stressed out" and that you generally do not edit questions, but she should not have made this stipulation, correct?
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:03 AM on February 21, 2007
Just so I'm clear ... posting restrictions on who may and may not answer your question is frowned upon, no? I understand "she's newish, stressed out" and that you generally do not edit questions, but she should not have made this stipulation, correct?
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:03 AM on February 21, 2007
À bientôt!
Thanks, I now have to wipe poutine off the screen.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:04 AM on February 21, 2007
Thanks, I now have to wipe poutine off the screen.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:04 AM on February 21, 2007
Ya sound ign'ant, handee. But if you want to flameout, go right ahead- haven't had a good one of those in a long while.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:04 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:04 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
eh, right.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:05 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by Happy Dave at 7:05 AM on February 21, 2007
what's a flameout? Sounds dramatic.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:05 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by Happy Dave at 7:05 AM on February 21, 2007
Not if you read it as "please don't tell me what you think of the war", which is the charitable reading of that sentence. I don't think she meant that she didn't want to hear constructive suggestions about how to support her son.
posted by Justinian at 7:06 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by Justinian at 7:06 AM on February 21, 2007
Oh, MeTa...
posted by klangklangston at 7:08 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by klangklangston at 7:08 AM on February 21, 2007
I don't like war, but my child is in there, fighting for your rights (Americia).
That part should be edited out. That phrase just begs for the kinds of comments that lead to flame wars.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:15 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
That part should be edited out. That phrase just begs for the kinds of comments that lead to flame wars.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:15 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
she should not have made this stipulation, correct?
My reading was the same as Justinian's: "please do me a favor and don't turn this into an anti-war derail." I think it would have been a better question without it, but it's somewhat like "Help me plan my turkey shoot, please don't derail with discussions about why you hate turkey shoots, thanks."
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:16 AM on February 21, 2007
My reading was the same as Justinian's: "please do me a favor and don't turn this into an anti-war derail." I think it would have been a better question without it, but it's somewhat like "Help me plan my turkey shoot, please don't derail with discussions about why you hate turkey shoots, thanks."
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:16 AM on February 21, 2007
Does "idiocallout" mean "self-callout"? (This appears to be the first use of such a word.)
It's from our idiolect.
posted by ikkyu2 at 7:16 AM on February 21, 2007
It's from our idiolect.
posted by ikkyu2 at 7:16 AM on February 21, 2007
'Nuther Derail with Jellicle's post
posted by Happy Dave at 7:17 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by Happy Dave at 7:17 AM on February 21, 2007
"fighting for your rights (Americia)." is flamebait.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 7:19 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by Armitage Shanks at 7:19 AM on February 21, 2007
'Nuther Derail with Jellicle's post
See that exclamation point next to the comment? Click on that. Select "derail" from the dropdown. Click the submit button. Done! Wasn't that easier than putting a comment in MeTa?
posted by dw at 7:19 AM on February 21, 2007
See that exclamation point next to the comment? Click on that. Select "derail" from the dropdown. Click the submit button. Done! Wasn't that easier than putting a comment in MeTa?
posted by dw at 7:19 AM on February 21, 2007
You know what I'd like to do, I'd like to start calling any old thing I please "fighting for your rights," the way JujuB does.
My son is working at a McDonald's. I'm not a fan of fast food, but my son is in there, fighting for your rights.
I was at a basketball game the other day, and I'm not a fan of sports but those men were really fighting for your rights out on the court.
Shit I got drunk as fuck last night. I totally fought for your rights all over my shoes.
posted by shmegegge at 7:19 AM on February 21, 2007 [39 favorites]
My son is working at a McDonald's. I'm not a fan of fast food, but my son is in there, fighting for your rights.
I was at a basketball game the other day, and I'm not a fan of sports but those men were really fighting for your rights out on the court.
Shit I got drunk as fuck last night. I totally fought for your rights all over my shoes.
posted by shmegegge at 7:19 AM on February 21, 2007 [39 favorites]
Not if you read it as "please don't tell me what you think of the war",
But she specifically said her son is "fighting for your rights", or, in other words, what she thinks of the war which leaves some opening for discussion of the war. It's more like "please don't derail with discussions about why you hate turkey shoots because turkeys hate Americia, thanks".
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:23 AM on February 21, 2007
But she specifically said her son is "fighting for your rights", or, in other words, what she thinks of the war which leaves some opening for discussion of the war. It's more like "
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:23 AM on February 21, 2007
I'm fighting for your rights in this here MetaTalk thread!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:23 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:23 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
And why is it posted to religion & philosophy? /nitpick
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:26 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:26 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
But she specifically said her son is "fighting for your rights", or, in other words, what she thinks of the war which leaves some opening for discussion of the war.
Well, no, since that's not what AskMeta is for. Plus, you're just mincing words. The poster wanted to know how to support her son should he be deployed; she asked that her thread not turn into a huge mess. Is that really so hard?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:26 AM on February 21, 2007 [2 favorites]
Well, no, since that's not what AskMeta is for. Plus, you're just mincing words. The poster wanted to know how to support her son should he be deployed; she asked that her thread not turn into a huge mess. Is that really so hard?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:26 AM on February 21, 2007 [2 favorites]
You know what? I hate the way ask.mefi threads are trimmed, especially when people ask stupid questions that provoke uncompromising answers, such as in this case. Now all that is left is somebody calling me a "tool" in that thread, and it looks like i never even participated.
Having said all this, I'm rolling with the punch on this one. I'm glad this person asked this question in the way they did. It takes a lot of ego-detachment to deal with some people on the green. And I think its something some people could afford to work on.
posted by phaedon at 7:26 AM on February 21, 2007
Having said all this, I'm rolling with the punch on this one. I'm glad this person asked this question in the way they did. It takes a lot of ego-detachment to deal with some people on the green. And I think its something some people could afford to work on.
posted by phaedon at 7:26 AM on February 21, 2007
My reading was the same as Justinian's: "please do me a favor and don't turn this into an anti-war derail."
Rational people will understand that and act accordingly.
The problem is that the phrase "I don't like war, but my child is in there, fighting for your rights (Americia)." is, unintentionally or not, like waving a conspiracy theory in front of a UFO nut. They can't help but respond.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:29 AM on February 21, 2007
Rational people will understand that and act accordingly.
The problem is that the phrase "I don't like war, but my child is in there, fighting for your rights (Americia)." is, unintentionally or not, like waving a conspiracy theory in front of a UFO nut. They can't help but respond.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:29 AM on February 21, 2007
Whaaaaaat, you mean Metafilter is full of crazies? Who knew.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:31 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:31 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
Yeah it comes down to not whether you agree with what she said or how she said it, but whether you are willing to cut the lady a little slack, and whether you want AskMe to be the kind of place that cuts her some slack.
posted by ND¢ at 7:31 AM on February 21, 2007 [4 favorites]
posted by ND¢ at 7:31 AM on February 21, 2007 [4 favorites]
Well, no, since that's not what AskMeta is for. Plus, you're just mincing words. The poster wanted to know how to support her son should he be deployed; she asked that her thread not turn into a huge mess. Is that really so hard?
Her final comment about "fighting for your rights" was incredibly inflammatory, as many have pointed out, and on a site light Metafilter, I don't doubt that most of the people who read that question blanched when they reached that paragraph. I know I did.
If she wants to get usable answers and avoid this kind of discussion, that comment shouldn't have been there. The only reason this metatalk thread exists is precisely because she left that sentence in. Without it, everyone would still be over there offering cookie recipes and care package ideas.
I realize we don't often edit AskMe questions, but if we don't want a deliberately provocative thread going on, that sentence should be truncated to something like, "Please don't turn this into a discussion about the war," or something less blatantly agitative.
I understand she doesn't want her thread to turn into a huge mess, and so that sentence should be removed, because, well, it is precisely why the thread is being shit on. Without it, we aren't here.
posted by dead_ at 7:34 AM on February 21, 2007 [5 favorites]
Her final comment about "fighting for your rights" was incredibly inflammatory, as many have pointed out, and on a site light Metafilter, I don't doubt that most of the people who read that question blanched when they reached that paragraph. I know I did.
If she wants to get usable answers and avoid this kind of discussion, that comment shouldn't have been there. The only reason this metatalk thread exists is precisely because she left that sentence in. Without it, everyone would still be over there offering cookie recipes and care package ideas.
I realize we don't often edit AskMe questions, but if we don't want a deliberately provocative thread going on, that sentence should be truncated to something like, "Please don't turn this into a discussion about the war," or something less blatantly agitative.
I understand she doesn't want her thread to turn into a huge mess, and so that sentence should be removed, because, well, it is precisely why the thread is being shit on. Without it, we aren't here.
posted by dead_ at 7:34 AM on February 21, 2007 [5 favorites]
Here's a news flash: Being in the military and being pro-war in Iraq aren't the same thing. I served in the Army, and I'm against the war.
Don't shit on some poor mom who just had her young son leave home for the first time and who will have to live every day with the fear that someone in uniform might show up at her door to tell her he's been killed.
People join the military for lots of different reasons, and in my experience, most of them aren't political. The average soldiers don't set the policy. Save your ire for the folks that do.
posted by Gamblor at 7:34 AM on February 21, 2007 [8 favorites]
Don't shit on some poor mom who just had her young son leave home for the first time and who will have to live every day with the fear that someone in uniform might show up at her door to tell her he's been killed.
People join the military for lots of different reasons, and in my experience, most of them aren't political. The average soldiers don't set the policy. Save your ire for the folks that do.
posted by Gamblor at 7:34 AM on February 21, 2007 [8 favorites]
I'm certainly willing to cut her slack and obviously off-topic answers must go as a matter of policy. I'm simply saying she should have left it out, for the benefit of anyone who might read this and then assume that adding editorial meta to your question is kosher.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:36 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:36 AM on February 21, 2007
I hope he's fighting for my right to party.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:36 AM on February 21, 2007 [4 favorites]
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:36 AM on February 21, 2007 [4 favorites]
What ire, Gamblor?
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:37 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:37 AM on February 21, 2007
I'm sorry to have to be the one to say this, but I honestly smell a troll.
It's distinctly possible that I'm hyperaware of these distinctions, but there is no "National Guard of America," and nobody who enlisted in a National Guard unit would refer to it as such. (See, for example, the New York Army National Guard and the California National Guard.)
I suppose it's possible that a parent wouldn't understand the distinction...but only just. People I knew in the service said "I'm in a New Mexico Guard unit," and so on.
So I'm not *entirely* positive this isn't a set-up. Just sayin'.
posted by adamgreenfield at 7:39 AM on February 21, 2007 [4 favorites]
It's distinctly possible that I'm hyperaware of these distinctions, but there is no "National Guard of America," and nobody who enlisted in a National Guard unit would refer to it as such. (See, for example, the New York Army National Guard and the California National Guard.)
I suppose it's possible that a parent wouldn't understand the distinction...but only just. People I knew in the service said "I'm in a New Mexico Guard unit," and so on.
So I'm not *entirely* positive this isn't a set-up. Just sayin'.
posted by adamgreenfield at 7:39 AM on February 21, 2007 [4 favorites]
what's a flameout? Sounds dramatic.
Let's just say you'd be a Sad Dave by the end.
posted by cortex at 7:39 AM on February 21, 2007
Let's just say you'd be a Sad Dave by the end.
posted by cortex at 7:39 AM on February 21, 2007
Okay, upon further review, the "fighting for your rights" thing is what pissed people off the most (as it should have). Fair callout.
posted by ColdChef at 7:41 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by ColdChef at 7:41 AM on February 21, 2007
I'm sorry to have to be the one to say this, but I honestly smell a troll.
I had the same feeling.
posted by dead_ at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2007
I had the same feeling.
posted by dead_ at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2007
Wait. Someone get me up to speed. There are people in basic training threatening my rights? Or are there people in Iraq threatening my rights? I'm so confused.
In any event, I am very grateful that we're sending people to defend them. Seems I have absolutely nothing to worry about.
posted by sourwookie at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2007
In any event, I am very grateful that we're sending people to defend them. Seems I have absolutely nothing to worry about.
posted by sourwookie at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2007
I don't doubt that most of the people who read that question blanched when they reached that paragraph. I know I did.
You know what? I blanched at it. And then I left the thread alone, anyway. It was tough, but clearly I have a superhuman capacity for shutting the fuck up.
Of course, now that there's this here metatalk thread for sanctioned shitting, I'll go ahead and say what an annoyingly worded question that was. I'll just say it in here.
posted by shmegegge at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2007 [3 favorites]
You know what? I blanched at it. And then I left the thread alone, anyway. It was tough, but clearly I have a superhuman capacity for shutting the fuck up.
Of course, now that there's this here metatalk thread for sanctioned shitting, I'll go ahead and say what an annoyingly worded question that was. I'll just say it in here.
posted by shmegegge at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2007 [3 favorites]
What dead_ said. Besides, she misspelled Amerika, and the last time somebody did that we went to 1032 comments.
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:44 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:44 AM on February 21, 2007
and hosted from Uranus: What ire, Gamblor?
Exhibit A. The ire that causes someone to make an idiot callout because the way a worried mother worded her question offended his delicate sensibilities.
posted by Gamblor at 7:46 AM on February 21, 2007
Exhibit A. The ire that causes someone to make an idiot callout because the way a worried mother worded her question offended his delicate sensibilities.
posted by Gamblor at 7:46 AM on February 21, 2007
If she wants to get usable answers and avoid this kind of discussion, that comment shouldn't have been there. The only reason this metatalk thread exists is precisely because she left that sentence in. Without it, everyone would still be over there offering cookie recipes and care package ideas.
The only reason this metatalk thread exists is because someone declined to suck it up and let it go by. Her tagline was impolitic and provocative, but not grossly so, and this callout and snipped comments notwithstanding, people have been managing to answer the question just fine.
And they are still over there offerieng cookie recipes etc. There have been nine new supportive (and one speculative—see adamagreenfield, above) comments since handee posted this callout.
The green's Be Helpful policy should not be overruled by poor framing or lousy phrasing by asker or responder. This is not a new discussion or a difficult concept; handee's callout here is annoying not because he's questioning the propriety of her "fighting for your rights" line but because he's questioning the propriety of discouraging flamey personal responses in the green. Tough tits, kid.
posted by cortex at 7:47 AM on February 21, 2007 [2 favorites]
The only reason this metatalk thread exists is because someone declined to suck it up and let it go by. Her tagline was impolitic and provocative, but not grossly so, and this callout and snipped comments notwithstanding, people have been managing to answer the question just fine.
And they are still over there offerieng cookie recipes etc. There have been nine new supportive (and one speculative—see adamagreenfield, above) comments since handee posted this callout.
The green's Be Helpful policy should not be overruled by poor framing or lousy phrasing by asker or responder. This is not a new discussion or a difficult concept; handee's callout here is annoying not because he's questioning the propriety of her "fighting for your rights" line but because he's questioning the propriety of discouraging flamey personal responses in the green. Tough tits, kid.
posted by cortex at 7:47 AM on February 21, 2007 [2 favorites]
"fighting for your rights (Americia)." is flamebait.
(1) So don't take the bait.
(2) Do you really think this mom phrased her question to bait people into an argument about the war? Really?
I'm sorry to have to be the one to say this, but I honestly smell a troll.
If so, worst troll ever. She could at least have said something that would have offended more than the delicate flowers with hair-trigger outrage meters.
posted by pardonyou? at 7:50 AM on February 21, 2007
(1) So don't take the bait.
(2) Do you really think this mom phrased her question to bait people into an argument about the war? Really?
I'm sorry to have to be the one to say this, but I honestly smell a troll.
If so, worst troll ever. She could at least have said something that would have offended more than the delicate flowers with hair-trigger outrage meters.
posted by pardonyou? at 7:50 AM on February 21, 2007
Well, at least no one had to offer the comment that she could look supportive by drinking the kool-aid, since she started the thread with a big old glass in hand. That said, it's one of those disclaimers I tend to breeze over with AskMe since it really has nothing to do with the question.
(Fighting for my rights? Safety, maybe. But I tend to think that unless someone is inside my country subverting the constitution, my rights will probably be fine.)
posted by mikeh at 7:51 AM on February 21, 2007
(Fighting for my rights? Safety, maybe. But I tend to think that unless someone is inside my country subverting the constitution, my rights will probably be fine.)
posted by mikeh at 7:51 AM on February 21, 2007
dead_,
please don't think I'm criticizing you. i'm just trying to say that how the unreasonable might respond to something shouldn't affect matt and jessamyn's no editing policy. i'm responding to the idea you stated, not you. askme is very muc a "you get what you give" site. if her question is badly worded, it'll show in her answers. she'll get some good ones, clearly, but some other people who might have had a good idea for her otherwise won't be responding, now. Or at lest not appropriately responding. her loss.
posted by shmegegge at 7:51 AM on February 21, 2007
please don't think I'm criticizing you. i'm just trying to say that how the unreasonable might respond to something shouldn't affect matt and jessamyn's no editing policy. i'm responding to the idea you stated, not you. askme is very muc a "you get what you give" site. if her question is badly worded, it'll show in her answers. she'll get some good ones, clearly, but some other people who might have had a good idea for her otherwise won't be responding, now. Or at lest not appropriately responding. her loss.
posted by shmegegge at 7:51 AM on February 21, 2007
The fighting for your rights is inflammatory, if it was in any other part of the Meta universe I would have been a little bit less charitable. It is debatable the level of intention, but you give people the benefit of the doubt in AskMe, gently make a suggestion, hope they learn and move on. If the pattern repeats, hopefully the admins take action.
posted by edgeways at 7:51 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by edgeways at 7:51 AM on February 21, 2007
She's prolly not even Americin.
posted by flabdablet at 7:52 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by flabdablet at 7:52 AM on February 21, 2007
(Shit, let me amend that: handee's callout text and initial callout cop to the shittiness of his deleted comment. It's only his later whackout response to jessamyn that colored my reading so harshly. The general notion that the suspension of basic AskMe civility is somehow kosher under provocative circumstances remains a problem, and that handee dropped that comment in the thread in the first place is evidence of that.)
posted by cortex at 7:52 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by cortex at 7:52 AM on February 21, 2007
cortex is totally fighting for your rights in here.
posted by shmegegge at 7:54 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by shmegegge at 7:54 AM on February 21, 2007
The only reason this metatalk thread exists is because someone declined to suck it up and let it go by.
My son recently joined the KKK, he has to go away to their training camp this week for a few months. I'm writing him letters 2x a week. What more can I do?
I don't necessarily like all of the group's tactics, but I love my son and respect his life choices. If you don't like the KKK then please keep your comments to yourself, he's out there fighting for your (American's) rights.
...
Obviously the KKK and the military are incomparable, but the reactions they raise in people are very similar--that is, people have incredibly strong opinions about them, so making blanket statements about the reader just isn't going to fly.
And cortex, I agree, let it go by in the thread. Commenting in there is completely inappropriate and against guidelines. All I'm suggesting is that with a tiny bit of editing we could avoid pointless call-outs such as this, and all the bullshit that comes with them.
All I'm suggesting is that a quick cleanup would have avoided all of this.
posted by dead_ at 7:55 AM on February 21, 2007
My son recently joined the KKK, he has to go away to their training camp this week for a few months. I'm writing him letters 2x a week. What more can I do?
I don't necessarily like all of the group's tactics, but I love my son and respect his life choices. If you don't like the KKK then please keep your comments to yourself, he's out there fighting for your (American's) rights.
...
Obviously the KKK and the military are incomparable, but the reactions they raise in people are very similar--that is, people have incredibly strong opinions about them, so making blanket statements about the reader just isn't going to fly.
And cortex, I agree, let it go by in the thread. Commenting in there is completely inappropriate and against guidelines. All I'm suggesting is that with a tiny bit of editing we could avoid pointless call-outs such as this, and all the bullshit that comes with them.
All I'm suggesting is that a quick cleanup would have avoided all of this.
posted by dead_ at 7:55 AM on February 21, 2007
Goddam right. Bring on the carepackages, you ungrateful yankee imperialist running dogs.
posted by cortex at 7:55 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by cortex at 7:55 AM on February 21, 2007
Yeah, I hear you shmegegge. I didn't take your comment as directed at me :)
posted by dead_ at 7:56 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by dead_ at 7:56 AM on February 21, 2007
(He said to shmeggege, without previewing in a fast-moving thread.)
posted by cortex at 7:56 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by cortex at 7:56 AM on February 21, 2007
Her son is in Iraq blowing shit up so you Americans can enjoy the right to crap in Ask.Mefi threads. Least that's what I got from that little comment.
As a Canadian, I didn't feel I had the right to call her a dumbaclot in the thread.
And yeah, this has to be a troll.
posted by chunking express at 7:57 AM on February 21, 2007
As a Canadian, I didn't feel I had the right to call her a dumbaclot in the thread.
And yeah, this has to be a troll.
posted by chunking express at 7:57 AM on February 21, 2007
Metafilter: Her tagline was impolitic and provocative
posted by Roger Dodger at 7:58 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Roger Dodger at 7:58 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
Obviously the KKK and the military are incomparable, but the reactions they raise in people are very similar
dead_, people who react without distinction to the KKK and the armed forces are not people I want to jessamyn tailor site practices to. I take your point—people will be tempted to react—but that's as far as that goes.
But I think we pretty much agree on this, so yeah. A bit of editing would have reduced the chances of inappropriate responses by users with poor self-control, and that editing wouldn't have bothered me either.
posted by cortex at 7:59 AM on February 21, 2007
dead_, people who react without distinction to the KKK and the armed forces are not people I want to jessamyn tailor site practices to. I take your point—people will be tempted to react—but that's as far as that goes.
But I think we pretty much agree on this, so yeah. A bit of editing would have reduced the chances of inappropriate responses by users with poor self-control, and that editing wouldn't have bothered me either.
posted by cortex at 7:59 AM on February 21, 2007
(1) So don't take the bait.
I didn't. I made an observation.
(2) Do you really think this mom phrased her question to bait people into an argument about the war? Really?
No, I imagine she just believes it's true. So do a lot of wingnuts who think ungrateful hippies should keep quiet. To avoid being mistaken for one of those wingnuts, it might be better to avoid that sort of language, especially when you're asking for help from a community heavily populated by ungrateful hippies.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 7:59 AM on February 21, 2007
I didn't. I made an observation.
(2) Do you really think this mom phrased her question to bait people into an argument about the war? Really?
No, I imagine she just believes it's true. So do a lot of wingnuts who think ungrateful hippies should keep quiet. To avoid being mistaken for one of those wingnuts, it might be better to avoid that sort of language, especially when you're asking for help from a community heavily populated by ungrateful hippies.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 7:59 AM on February 21, 2007
MetaFilter: Nazis.
posted by phaedon at 8:00 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by phaedon at 8:00 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
Meh, leave it. Best case scenario, JujuB learns that anti-war people aren't bad people (and gets some good answers). Worst case, it spirals out of control into a "yes you are", "no we aren't" flamefest and then Matt and Jess can clean it up.
posted by Plutor at 9:24 AM EST on February 21
Exactly what I was thinking. Several people (myself included) gently rebuked her for a statement that could be read as not wanting advice from anti-war folks without derailing the thread.
I don't get this callout. Does the whole of MeFi really need to carefully weigh in on the wording of the question? Is Handee conducting a poll to see if people thought his reply was jerky or not? 'Cause I find simply e-mailing Jessamyn to be wonderfully effective for AskMe issues that require more than a flag-it-and-move-on.
posted by desuetude at 8:00 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by Plutor at 9:24 AM EST on February 21
Exactly what I was thinking. Several people (myself included) gently rebuked her for a statement that could be read as not wanting advice from anti-war folks without derailing the thread.
I don't get this callout. Does the whole of MeFi really need to carefully weigh in on the wording of the question? Is Handee conducting a poll to see if people thought his reply was jerky or not? 'Cause I find simply e-mailing Jessamyn to be wonderfully effective for AskMe issues that require more than a flag-it-and-move-on.
posted by desuetude at 8:00 AM on February 21, 2007
desuetude, i'm thinking handee wanted a venue to vent about how obnoxious he felt the question was, without ruining the pristine garden that is Ask.Mefi. Clearly other people also want to vent about the question.
posted by chunking express at 8:03 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by chunking express at 8:03 AM on February 21, 2007
Metafilter: a community heavily populated by ungrateful hippies
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:04 AM on February 21, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:04 AM on February 21, 2007 [2 favorites]
These Metatalk threads go down a lot easier if you turn the TV to the Jerry Springer show on mute while reading the comments.
posted by Rhomboid at 8:05 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Rhomboid at 8:05 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
The editing thing is messy. Once we start editing questions for content [as opposed to typos, or fixing HTML] people will want to workshop everything and tell mathowie and I how questions should be worded for optimum effectiveness. I agree that if we did edit, this question would be at the top of my list of deserving of editing, but as it stands it's just sort of a lame question that has to stand on its own as that. It's the same as our "first post stays" rule regarding double-posts. Once we starting picking and choosing based on our idea of quality, then everyone jumps in with advice on how we could have done it better, or disagreeing with how we did it.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:06 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:06 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
I blanched, but mostly because I knew that the sanctimonius turds would be incapable of taking the high road and instead use it as an opportunity to pick up their rifles of self-indulgent twattery and do their part in The Great American Cultural War, Internet Edition.
'We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in The Green, we shall fight on the phpBBs and Shoutboxes, we shall fight with growing overconfidence and growing self-importance in the aether, we shall defend our Island of Smug Righteousness, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on The Blue, we shall fight on the wiki discussion pages, we shall fight in the RSS and in the XML, we shall fight in The Grey; we shall never surrender... '
Her politics are irrelevant - if you can't ignore that, shut up, move along and go tell Anonymous to dump his/her spouse.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:08 AM on February 21, 2007 [6 favorites]
'We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in The Green, we shall fight on the phpBBs and Shoutboxes, we shall fight with growing overconfidence and growing self-importance in the aether, we shall defend our Island of Smug Righteousness, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on The Blue, we shall fight on the wiki discussion pages, we shall fight in the RSS and in the XML, we shall fight in The Grey; we shall never surrender... '
Her politics are irrelevant - if you can't ignore that, shut up, move along and go tell Anonymous to dump his/her spouse.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:08 AM on February 21, 2007 [6 favorites]
No, I imagine she just believes it's true.
Which I guess proves my point that it's not flamebait. So I'm left confused as to why you said it was.
posted by pardonyou? at 8:10 AM on February 21, 2007
Which I guess proves my point that it's not flamebait. So I'm left confused as to why you said it was.
posted by pardonyou? at 8:10 AM on February 21, 2007
(OK, I've had some time away from the keyboad now)
I got wound up by the question, and shat in the thread. Realising my error I posted here asking for my in-thread crap ("Tell him to go home, and we're not all americians" or somesuch) to get deleted, and for the OQ's inflammatory (and I stand by that) comments to get excised so others didn't fuck up like I did.
I must have missed the "we don't edit questions even when they're inflammatory crap" memo, but hey. Nobody's perfect.
posted by handee at 8:11 AM on February 21, 2007
I got wound up by the question, and shat in the thread. Realising my error I posted here asking for my in-thread crap ("Tell him to go home, and we're not all americians" or somesuch) to get deleted, and for the OQ's inflammatory (and I stand by that) comments to get excised so others didn't fuck up like I did.
I must have missed the "we don't edit questions even when they're inflammatory crap" memo, but hey. Nobody's perfect.
posted by handee at 8:11 AM on February 21, 2007
So I'm left confused as to why you said it was.
Fair enough, let's go with the oxymoronic "unintentional flamebait". Or perhaps "thoughtlessly flamebaitesque".
I don't think she consciously set out to bait anyone, but it has the same effect. Given the audience, it ends up looking kind of rude.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:19 AM on February 21, 2007
Fair enough, let's go with the oxymoronic "unintentional flamebait". Or perhaps "thoughtlessly flamebaitesque".
I don't think she consciously set out to bait anyone, but it has the same effect. Given the audience, it ends up looking kind of rude.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:19 AM on February 21, 2007
I'm sorry, handee, but I'm afraid it's too late. The damage has been done and we're going to have to ask you to fight for your rights (MetaTalk) elsewhere.
posted by shmegegge at 8:22 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by shmegegge at 8:22 AM on February 21, 2007
jessamyn writes "Once we starting picking and choosing based on our idea of quality, then everyone jumps in with advice on how we could have done it better, or disagreeing with how we did it."
Absolutely right. Already many too many editorial deletions are held up for judgment that should be left in peace.
And, while I thought the question was poorly worded, I actually think the poster's caveat (in the generous reading which I think is appropriate) shows a laudable knowledge of the userbase at MetaFilter. She may not understand that good users won't shit in threads with their opinions, but she certainly understands that on questions for which liberal social and political views might be expressed, they often are.
posted by OmieWise at 8:23 AM on February 21, 2007
Absolutely right. Already many too many editorial deletions are held up for judgment that should be left in peace.
And, while I thought the question was poorly worded, I actually think the poster's caveat (in the generous reading which I think is appropriate) shows a laudable knowledge of the userbase at MetaFilter. She may not understand that good users won't shit in threads with their opinions, but she certainly understands that on questions for which liberal social and political views might be expressed, they often are.
posted by OmieWise at 8:23 AM on February 21, 2007
Step off fools! Just let it go. If you think her question was flamebait, don't take the bait like a fucking idiot. OK? If, like me, you think it was a sincere but poorly phrased question, either answer the question or don't. The intent is clear, she wants to know what she should send her boy - cocoa, baby wipes, sunblock, cigarettes, etc., according to his needs and wants.
dead_: doesn't mean what you think it means.
posted by Mister_A at 8:25 AM on February 21, 2007
dead_: doesn't mean what you think it means.
posted by Mister_A at 8:25 AM on February 21, 2007
Just so I'm clear ... posting restrictions on who may and may not answer your question is frowned upon, no? I understand "she's newish, stressed out" and that you generally do not edit questions, but she should not have made this stipulation, correct?
Correct. Crappy post. Should have been deleted.
For those who think that "support the troops" has a Republican monopoly, here's a Pete Seeger song to sing along to (youtube). If you are going to bring your ignorance into an AskMe question, don't foreclose responses from those who might dispel that ignorance for you.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 8:32 AM on February 21, 2007
Correct. Crappy post. Should have been deleted.
For those who think that "support the troops" has a Republican monopoly, here's a Pete Seeger song to sing along to (youtube). If you are going to bring your ignorance into an AskMe question, don't foreclose responses from those who might dispel that ignorance for you.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 8:32 AM on February 21, 2007
How a poster presents themself and their question is one of the clues we get that determine what our advice is. I'd rather someone expose themself as a nut or an ignoramus or a jerk in right off the bat (like I always do) than trick us by writing a thoughtful, well-written question that elicits meaningful responses, ONLY THEN revealing to the crowd that he/she is a nut/ignoramus/jerk who has wasted your time.
It seems that the character of this question has certainly inspired many of us to walk on by, dragging our covered wagons full of amazing insights with us. It's our prerogative, and the posters loss. What's so bad about that?
posted by hermitosis at 8:54 AM on February 21, 2007
It seems that the character of this question has certainly inspired many of us to walk on by, dragging our covered wagons full of amazing insights with us. It's our prerogative, and the posters loss. What's so bad about that?
posted by hermitosis at 8:54 AM on February 21, 2007
That part should be edited out. That phrase just begs for the kinds of comments that lead to flame wars.
Or it begs for people to be grown-ups and just keep walking on by, rather than infantile twitch-machines who have to grind their own axe on every whetstone they see.
Probably much less successful begging, though.
posted by phearlez at 8:55 AM on February 21, 2007
Or it begs for people to be grown-ups and just keep walking on by, rather than infantile twitch-machines who have to grind their own axe on every whetstone they see.
Probably much less successful begging, though.
posted by phearlez at 8:55 AM on February 21, 2007
"But for the Grace of God, there go I ..."
Oh. That part of the question just sunk in. BARF.
What does she mean, anyway? Is SHE at risk of going into basic training if God's grace suddenly goes AWOL?
posted by hermitosis at 8:58 AM on February 21, 2007
Oh. That part of the question just sunk in. BARF.
What does she mean, anyway? Is SHE at risk of going into basic training if God's grace suddenly goes AWOL?
posted by hermitosis at 8:58 AM on February 21, 2007
I think autocallout would be a more correct term. like autobiography.
posted by delmoi at 9:02 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by delmoi at 9:02 AM on February 21, 2007
What does she mean, anyway?
She comes off as a bit of a dope who's afraid of losing her son, which is a terrible loss and greatly to be feared. She is emotionally overwrought and seems to be struggling to attach meaning to this tragedy in the making; and I think she is projecting a desire to protect her son, in this case by circuitously expressing a wish to take his place, while simultaneously attempting to frame these events as inevitable. The fact that her son's enlistment was not inevitable, that he in fact chose to place himself in harm's way, is her chief torment, and thus she seeks solace in convincing herself of the inevitability of her son's apparently precipitous actions.
I also diagnosed Terry Schiavo from a distance (brain dead).
posted by Mister_A at 9:05 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
She comes off as a bit of a dope who's afraid of losing her son, which is a terrible loss and greatly to be feared. She is emotionally overwrought and seems to be struggling to attach meaning to this tragedy in the making; and I think she is projecting a desire to protect her son, in this case by circuitously expressing a wish to take his place, while simultaneously attempting to frame these events as inevitable. The fact that her son's enlistment was not inevitable, that he in fact chose to place himself in harm's way, is her chief torment, and thus she seeks solace in convincing herself of the inevitability of her son's apparently precipitous actions.
I also diagnosed Terry Schiavo from a distance (brain dead).
posted by Mister_A at 9:05 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
Americin
Is that available orally, or only in suppository form?
posted by Koko at 9:07 AM on February 21, 2007
Is that available orally, or only in suppository form?
posted by Koko at 9:07 AM on February 21, 2007
Oh man, I have GOT to know what a dumbaclot is.
WEll, it appears to be a play on bumbaclot, which is in the Jamaican patois slang for toilet paper, or "ass cloth." The Jamaicans use that as an all purpose swearword, as they do with "bloodclot" (blood cloth, ie menstrual pads).
/derail into the wonderful word of Jamaican slang
posted by Bookhouse at 9:09 AM on February 21, 2007 [2 favorites]
WEll, it appears to be a play on bumbaclot, which is in the Jamaican patois slang for toilet paper, or "ass cloth." The Jamaicans use that as an all purpose swearword, as they do with "bloodclot" (blood cloth, ie menstrual pads).
/derail into the wonderful word of Jamaican slang
posted by Bookhouse at 9:09 AM on February 21, 2007 [2 favorites]
Flamebait? Who knows? But Americia is definitely jailbait.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 9:13 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 9:13 AM on February 21, 2007
chunking express, clearly people will find a need to vent about any given detail of any portion of any experience on Metafilter, given the opportunity.
posted by desuetude at 9:13 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by desuetude at 9:13 AM on February 21, 2007
Dumbaclot is a play on the word bumbaclot/bloodclot, as bookhouse above noted. Sometime in high school I started referring to a few people I knew as the dumbaclots, because they were dumb, and because my friend Alex had managed to get us all talking like we were from the streets of Kingston.
posted by chunking express at 9:14 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by chunking express at 9:14 AM on February 21, 2007
You know, if she's a troll, she's a very effective one. I mean, look at all the fish looking at the hook and jumping straight into her boat.
So many knee-jerks around here.
posted by dw at 9:15 AM on February 21, 2007
So many knee-jerks around here.
posted by dw at 9:15 AM on February 21, 2007
desuetude, I agree. I think the best course of action would be for people to simply ignore questions/posts that they find inflammatory.
I also love these threads though, so I am conflicted.
posted by chunking express at 9:15 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
I also love these threads though, so I am conflicted.
posted by chunking express at 9:15 AM on February 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
I initially had the same sort of doubts about the asker adamgreenfield expressed, but reading her other question and some of her answers has completely convinced me she is real and that her question is real, too.
Her other posts are sensible, intelligent, and down to earth. The question in question reads like something a person might come up with after spending the day reading the KJV Bible or listening to a very inspiring sermon. I think that she is speaking from the deepest level of her heart, and is reaching for the most forceful language she knows in order to try to do that-- and she succeeds to a surprising degree.
I also think the admonition to hold your comments if you are anti-war are not flame-bait, but bespeak a struggle to contain her own feelings against the war and against this country, all for the sake of her son.
And that struggle is wise from so many points of view. My mate's sister's son is in the military. When he called from Iraq on his mother's birthday, during her birthday party, my SO got on the phone and said "I hate this idiotic president." Two days later, he was called into his commander's office and quizzed for half an hour about who was in that house, what was their relationship to him, what else are they up to, and how much of what they are up to is he involved in.
posted by jamjam at 9:16 AM on February 21, 2007 [3 favorites]
Her other posts are sensible, intelligent, and down to earth. The question in question reads like something a person might come up with after spending the day reading the KJV Bible or listening to a very inspiring sermon. I think that she is speaking from the deepest level of her heart, and is reaching for the most forceful language she knows in order to try to do that-- and she succeeds to a surprising degree.
I also think the admonition to hold your comments if you are anti-war are not flame-bait, but bespeak a struggle to contain her own feelings against the war and against this country, all for the sake of her son.
And that struggle is wise from so many points of view. My mate's sister's son is in the military. When he called from Iraq on his mother's birthday, during her birthday party, my SO got on the phone and said "I hate this idiotic president." Two days later, he was called into his commander's office and quizzed for half an hour about who was in that house, what was their relationship to him, what else are they up to, and how much of what they are up to is he involved in.
posted by jamjam at 9:16 AM on February 21, 2007 [3 favorites]
Some of those chips end up on your shoulder?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 9:22 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 9:22 AM on February 21, 2007
See that exclamation point next to the comment? Click on that. Select "derail" from the dropdown. Click the submit button. Done! Wasn't that easier than putting a comment in MeTa?
Thanks dw - that's handy to know.
posted by Happy Dave at 9:22 AM on February 21, 2007
Thanks dw - that's handy to know.
posted by Happy Dave at 9:22 AM on February 21, 2007
I also think the admonition to hold your comments if you are anti-war are not flame-bait,
No one has said it was.
The statement that participation in the Iraq war is "fighting for your rights" is what has been called out here. And that is definitely flame-bait, intentional or not.
The post would have been fine without it, but what the heck. It's given us this lovely thread.
posted by tkolar at 9:26 AM on February 21, 2007
No one has said it was.
The statement that participation in the Iraq war is "fighting for your rights" is what has been called out here. And that is definitely flame-bait, intentional or not.
The post would have been fine without it, but what the heck. It's given us this lovely thread.
posted by tkolar at 9:26 AM on February 21, 2007
I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:27 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:27 AM on February 21, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by handee at 6:17 AM on February 21, 2007