Chelsea headhunter. September 20, 2007 11:52 AM   Subscribe

What makes this a good FPP?
posted by brautigan to Etiquette/Policy at 11:52 AM (128 comments total) 1 user marked this as a favorite

Nothing?
posted by majick at 11:56 AM on September 20, 2007


Is this a trick question?
posted by brain_drain at 11:58 AM on September 20, 2007


Nothing? I'm on vacation and left it to mathowie/cortex to make a decision on it. I wasn't sure if it was one of those things that I'd have to be into sports to care about and the last thing I wanted was to remove a post and have people be like "OMG that's the UK equivalent of the superbowl WTFBBQ." On the other hand, it's a single link sportsflter post that would probably be better received on SportsFilter, unless that sort of thing isn't even cool over there.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:59 AM on September 20, 2007


Flag it?

There are lots of things posted to MetaFilter that suck. We don't need a MetaTalk thread for each of them.
posted by chunking express at 11:59 AM on September 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


Nothing, it's awful. Why do you ask?
posted by Greg Nog at 12:01 PM on September 20, 2007


It's not only one-link sportsfilter, it's one-link sportsfilter with no photos of sweaty, underdressed men. What the hell are we supposed to do with THIS??
posted by hermitosis at 12:02 PM on September 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


Flag it?
posted by dersins at 12:08 PM on September 20, 2007


Snark at it?
posted by loquacious at 12:08 PM on September 20, 2007 [2 favorites]


I have to say that this is massive news in the UK and in the football (soccer) world generally. Even Gordon Brown's office was asked to comment. Now the post isn't great and thus I can understand why it may be deleted, but I don't think that the subject matter makes it necessarily delete-worthy...
posted by ob at 12:09 PM on September 20, 2007


I know as much about Jose Mourinho as I do about French philosophers, and I don't know anything about French philosophers; not knowing who he is or what it's about doesn't really seem like a good reason to nuke it—see what Jess just said on that.

Beyond that, folks commenting in the post seemed to know who he was and why it was significant; the post didn't seem to be a trainwreck; there's no prohibition (recent Bonds metatalk episode bedamned) against sports discussion; and it didn't link to pictures of sports players in unusual poses with mispelled captions superimposed. It didn't really seem like a problem, even if it's not a super post and I don't give a toss about the subject.

A rash of these, not cool. By it's lonesome...eh. It got the shrug.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:12 PM on September 20, 2007


Why? Here's why.

also
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 12:14 PM on September 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


Can Jose Mourinho hit a curve ball?
posted by Mister_A at 12:16 PM on September 20, 2007


The truth is, and cortex and jessamyn would never admit this, MetaFilter gets a lot of shit for being too US-centric. So whenever there's a post about whatever backwards, wannabe football "sport" is played in whatever backwards country it happens to be, they leave it up as not to offend.

The same thing is true with this "sport."
posted by eyeballkid at 12:17 PM on September 20, 2007


So it's kosher for me to post about curling, then? Cool.
posted by kmennie at 12:19 PM on September 20, 2007


Oh God Hillary will totally have that guy killed!
posted by cog_nate at 12:20 PM on September 20, 2007 [2 favorites]


So whenever there's a post about whatever backwards, wannabe football "sport" is played in whatever backwards country it happens to be, they leave it up as not to offend.

They admit above that they are not even knowledgeable or qualified to even know what to make of it. On the one hand that makes the mods US-centric.

On the other hand, that adds to why this is a bad post. Good posts, whether they are about football or medieval texts, give you context for what they are presenting to you. This wasn't "Hey, here's something interesting everyone should know" but rather "Hey, lets discuss this thing that everyone who cares about it should know all about already."
posted by vacapinta at 12:23 PM on September 20, 2007


It could have used a little more context. I mean, a lot of people (Americans) don't know Chelsea FC, or even what a FC is. It sounds like a band name.
posted by smackfu at 12:24 PM on September 20, 2007


What's a battle?
posted by aramaic at 12:26 PM on September 20, 2007


Not a sport: golf, iceskating, curling, archery, podiatry.

hth
posted by luser at 12:27 PM on September 20, 2007


What makes "I don't care" a good comment?
posted by Skot at 12:28 PM on September 20, 2007 [2 favorites]


So it's kosher for me to post about curling, then? Cool.

I knew a wicked good curler when I was going to school in MA. I'll have her vet your post for potential hoserness.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:30 PM on September 20, 2007


Aw, brautigan's profession of apathy and probable flagging didn't get the result he required, so he took it to the Grey. Bravo.

I'm not going to bother going through your history, but if you fit the profile of an entitled 'Not the best of my web!' whiner like I suspect you do, you've probably made your share of shrug-worthy FPPs yourself.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:32 PM on September 20, 2007


We tend to talk about big sports news. Look, here's another one just posted. It's more of the ageless/endless do we or don't we do newsfilter kind of issue. If the thread doesn't interest you, skip it.
posted by gwint at 12:33 PM on September 20, 2007


"It's not only one-link sportsfilter, it's one-link sportsfilter with no photos of sweaty, underdressed men."

My link today has plenty of cock lovingly photographed (though none linked directly). Just so you know.
posted by klangklangston at 12:34 PM on September 20, 2007


Damnit vacapinta, I was being sarcastic and trollish, why did you have to go and twist my post to be constructive?
posted by eyeballkid at 12:35 PM on September 20, 2007


Oh wow, and you took a little dump in the thread before bringing it to metatalk. Classy.
posted by gwint at 12:36 PM on September 20, 2007


I mean, a lot of people (Americans) don't know Chelsea FC, or even what a FC is. It sounds like a band name.

So? Now you know how the rest of us feel about your (Americans') crap.
posted by timeistight at 12:40 PM on September 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


LOLFOOTIE
posted by everichon at 12:42 PM on September 20, 2007


I suggest you bite the thread lightly but firmly on what the media so timidly refers to as the "upper thigh", if you know what I mean.
posted by Divine_Wino at 12:42 PM on September 20, 2007


It could have used a little more context. I mean, a lot of people (Americans) don't know Chelsea FC, or even what a FC is.

The rest of the world, on the other hand -- from Europe to Asia to South America to Africa, all tend to follow it fairly obsessively. Soccer has a World Cup that actually includes teams from all around the world -- unlike the 'World Series' of Baseball.

Disclaimer: I hate all sport except poker and heavyweight boxing, don't understand any of it, and would be happy if it was all banned from Metafilter. But I'm not gonna whine because a post doesn't tell me who plays running back for the Buttfuck Bumholes. If I cared, I'd Google it.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:47 PM on September 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


It's Asshole MacAnus, btw. Jersey is #2.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:51 PM on September 20, 2007 [5 favorites]


On the other hand, it's a single link sportsflter post that would probably be better received on SportsFilter, unless that sort of thing isn't even cool over there.

Obligatory link to SpoFi thread on the story.
posted by Ufez Jones at 12:54 PM on September 20, 2007


It could have used a little more context. I mean, a lot of people (Americans) don't know Chelsea FC, or even what a FC is.

Well, if a WC is a water closet then an FC is probably a...

Hey, what the fuck? You weirdos!
posted by loquacious at 12:55 PM on September 20, 2007 [4 favorites]


For hermitosis (NSFW)
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:56 PM on September 20, 2007


Theres lots of Chelsea Fuck Closets in lower Manhattan.
posted by BigVACub at 12:57 PM on September 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


If a bunch of stereotypical dumb Yanks don't understand it then it can't be much of an FPP can it?
posted by i_cola at 1:06 PM on September 20, 2007


brautigan, what makes this a good post?

My point is, we all make posts from time to time that aren't spectacular. And they don't need MeTa callouts. To use that oft-used MeTa cliche, if you don't like it, flag it and move on.
posted by Effigy2000 at 1:18 PM on September 20, 2007


a lot of people (Americans) don't know Chelsea FC, or even what a FC is. It sounds like a band name.

Chelsea
posted by InfidelZombie at 1:19 PM on September 20, 2007


It's a good post because it allows people to go into the thread and make witty comments about how it involves sports/something they don't care about. Without threads like these, they'd have to add something useful to a discussion.
posted by inigo2 at 1:20 PM on September 20, 2007


Apple product introduction post - keep
foreign - looking dicey
sports - (see foreign)
foreign sports - OMG delete!!!!!

You know, there seem to be some people enjoying it, so please stop your bitching about the post and go read something on the site that you like.
posted by caddis at 1:23 PM on September 20, 2007 [3 favorites]


But I don't WANT to be exposed to go to Chelsea.
Using "headhunter" in the title would suggest brautigan knows something about Chelsea, at least.
posted by Abiezer at 1:28 PM on September 20, 2007


Well, he *is* in the UK. My theory? brautigan's just a disgruntled Gooner.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:32 PM on September 20, 2007


caddis: "Apple product introduction post - keep
foreign - looking dicey
sports - (see foreign)
foreign sports - OMG delete!!!!!
"

How would we classify this, then?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:34 PM on September 20, 2007


Well I think it's cute that foreigners have their little sports. We shouldn't pick on them or laugh at them for it at all.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 1:38 PM on September 20, 2007


This Jose guy - he was the one that Janis Joplin gave head to on the unmade bed, right?
posted by item at 1:42 PM on September 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


Disclaimer: I hate all sport sports except poker and heavyweight boxing.

Fixed that for you!

Actually...

Disclaimer: I hate all sport sports except poker and heavyweight boxing.

There. All better.
posted by ibmcginty at 1:44 PM on September 20, 2007


Hehehe. Oh, the snarkery!

Goodnewsforthinsane has it. And my brother in law is a Chelsea season ticket holder and it's all I'm gonna hear for the next month.

Still tho, no context, minority interest, crap link (although it improved over the course of the day as the Beeb added more info and sidebar links.)

I assume that, aside for classroom cliping, the point of metatalk is to raise points to help maintain standards (and dish out "witty" beatdowns of course). I flagged and snarked it first thing and 12 hours later it stood.

If that constitutes a good post then I'll FPP every Arsenal result from here till the end of the season no problem.

Effigy: 100+ concurring comments make it a good post.

Skot: comments don't have to be good. See 99% of mine and your own.

Jessamyn + Cortex: Cheers

The rest: Love you all!
posted by brautigan at 1:47 PM on September 20, 2007


What do I win?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:49 PM on September 20, 2007


The Chelsea job. Good luck with that.
posted by brautigan at 1:50 PM on September 20, 2007


Wow. Brautigan you make wish their was flagging for users.
posted by srboisvert at 1:52 PM on September 20, 2007


Ah, get over it srboisvert. It'll never happen.
posted by brautigan at 1:56 PM on September 20, 2007


“So? Now you know how the rest of us feel about your (Americans') crap.”

Yeah, and that's why the equivalent American crap make bad posts, too.

This post sucks just like the “it's all over the news” posts of almost every variety suck. It's the worst sort of NewsFilter.

If it's a single link to a news source on a story that is appearing everywhere—or even everywhere that those interested in the story visit—it's a crap fucking post. If it's about Britney Spears going into rehab? It sucks. If it's about some football player arrested? It sucks. If it's about the passage of a major bill in Congress? It sucks. These all suck. They are all news, they all appear all over the media, they all are either familiar to everybody before they appear on MeFi or shortly thereafter, and good discussion doesn't make a good post.

You know why that last bit is true? Because I could post the word WHITE on the front page with no links and it could potentially generate a good discussion. People who assert that good discussions justify a post are fucking imbeciles. That's right: if you assert that good discussion justifies a post, you're a fucking imbecile. Or a celibate imbecile. I don't care—either way, you're an imbecile.

It's great to have non-US-centric posts. I hope we have more of them. But they'd better not be NewsFilter non-US posts because you know what? Those suck. They are bad posts.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:58 PM on September 20, 2007 [5 favorites]


Because I could post the word WHITE on the front page with no links and it could potentially generate a good discussion.

DO IT
posted by kosem at 2:12 PM on September 20, 2007


If that constitutes a good post then I'll FPP every Arsenal result from here till the end of the season no problem.

So if a given topic makes for a good post, a hundred posts on that topic must be better? No matter how good a post "Colors of the past" was, a post every day of color photographs from early twentieth-century Russia would not be a good thing.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:14 PM on September 20, 2007


Because I could post the word WHITE on the front page with no links and it could potentially generate a good discussion.

I tried to do it, but the New Post form demands at least one link.
posted by brain_drain at 2:27 PM on September 20, 2007


So link to your post. It's the circle of life, dude.
posted by item at 2:31 PM on September 20, 2007


What makes "What makes "I don't care" a good comment?" a good comment?
posted by Totally Zanzibarin' Ya at 2:34 PM on September 20, 2007 [3 favorites]


This is a huge mainstream news story in the UK, and Portugal and it will be very important to football fans throughout the world since it involves one of the best/most important clubs. I thought the people crapping in this thread were way out of line.

From the perspective of a good chunk of the world, this is a much bigger story than the death of any Science Fiction writer, Britney Spears or anything involving baseball or American football. Its true that football may not be "important" but its no more self indulgent and niche-focused than most of the content on this site.
posted by Deep Dish at 2:34 PM on September 20, 2007


Its true that football may not be "important"

Some people believe football is a matter of life and death. I'm very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that.
posted by Aloysius Bear at 2:37 PM on September 20, 2007


Ethereal Bligh, I agree with you.

But you aren't in much of a position to cast aspersions about other people's Newsfilter posts, having recently posted this prime example:
Karl Rove Resigns. The man known as “Bush's Brain” and whom Frontline called “The Architect” will leave office at the end of August.
posted by Aloysius Bear at 2:49 PM on September 20, 2007


not knowing who he is or what it's about doesn't really seem like a good reason to nuke it—see what Jess just said on that

the problem here, I think, is not that a lot of people here don't know anything about soccer and don't care; the problem is that the post doesn't give those exact people a tiny atom of a reason to ever want to know more.

instead of just writing that Mourinho is "spectacular, talented, egotistical, handsome and immensely controversial manager" (the average reader's reaction: "so fucking what"), it'd have been nice if the poster had taken the time to link some stuff -- and god knows there's plenty of stuff online about Mourinho -- that explains that this is a very interesting guy even if you don't like sports, a guy who happily butted heads with the scary Russian oligarch who owns the team, a guy who made savage fun in the papers of the Ukrainian striker/BFF of said oligarch, a guy who won the soccer equivalent of the Superbowl with a Portuguese team (rare) and refused to have his picture taken with the team on the field after the game and stormed off the field with his gold medal looking royally pissed off for no particular reason, a guy who wore Armani on the field in a business where general managers wear tracksuits, a guy whose lucky charm (long overcoat) was auctioned off to charity for an obscene amlount of money, -- he was the soccer general manager as articulate, arrogant, assholish rockstar. etc etc

fleshing out that stuff would have made the post better.

but then, we have every day posts that are just a list of youtube links of some rock band everybody knows or a comedy show or a Flash game of a chipmunk humping a papier mache elephant, and those posts are a-OK, so I don't see why the Mourinho poster should have been doing things differently. I don't blame him if he couldn't be arsed.
posted by matteo at 2:51 PM on September 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


My bad, EB, I hadn't seen your comment about it in the next (live) thread down.
posted by Aloysius Bear at 2:52 PM on September 20, 2007


Yeah, as I say in the other thread, I regret the Rove post. My thinking at the time was that it was in the category of those rare NewsFilter posts that are okay because it's a Really Big Story. Of course it really wasn't. And, as I write in the other thead, I wouldn't have considered posting it at all if I, too, weren't influenced by the fact that NewsFilter is semi-okay. I saw the story in the middle of the night, thought that it would be posted and wouldn't be deleted, and got excited that I could be the person to post it...for whatever stupid reason that's a motivation to anyone.

Like every other person here who has complained about NewsFilter, I'm mostly worried about the slippery slope, even though, of course, we've never actually slid down that slope. But, arguably, we've come close during the election cycles. And, arguably, we've not slid down the slope because there's enough people complaining about it to keep it at bay.

Anytime there's something that's not a good thing but not a real big problem there's the difficulty in justifying a push-back against it because, after all, it's not a real big problem. But it seems pretty clear that those most sensitive to the problem are like canaries in a coal mine. You've got to have them, even if they're annoying and sometimes give false positives.

Other people have other annoyances they complain about, and I don't begrudge them this if what they don't like is, in fact, truly marginal. YouTube posts, for example. They are truly marginal and they easily could get out of hand. The people that are pushing back on them are helping keep it from being a real problem, even if they think that it already is a real problem. I don't think so, but I can easily imagine it being so.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:07 PM on September 20, 2007


"...a Flash game of a chipmunk humping a papier mache elephant..."

I request that someone create this game ASAP.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:08 PM on September 20, 2007


People who assert that good discussions justify a post are fucking imbeciles. That's right: if you assert that good discussion justifies a post, you're a fucking imbecile. Or a celibate imbecile. I don't care—either way, you're an imbecile.

I don't think I like this new, nasty EB as much as the older, more philosophical one.

I don't think good discussion = good post, but I think the quality of the thread is an important metric. If I were a mod and went into a dubious-looking thread and saw a bunch of hurfdurfery with little or no substance, I'd be much more likely to nuke it. If I went into one that, like this, consisted almost entirely of informed commentary (and informed jokes), with only a few assholes going "huh sports suk amirite," I'd shrug and leave it. I'm no Premier League fan, but even I know Chelsea is a big deal and this development is presumptively a big deal, and I found the thread interesting and informative. If you think differently... I guess that makes you an imbecile!!!
posted by languagehat at 3:29 PM on September 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


So, the real question is—What team should I root for? I mean, look, I can't root for Chelski or Arse because they're like the Yankees and Lakers, right? And I can't root for Newcastle, because that's my pal's team, and he's been on it longer than I have. Who's next in the "credible threat, easy to watch, doesn't have primarily-douche fans"? I want a team that I can vaguely endorse and root for on those rare occassions that I can catch one of their games.
posted by klangklangston at 3:29 PM on September 20, 2007


If we're talking about zero-tolerance for newsfilter then, great, I'm all for that. If this were a democracy I'd vote for that. Because EB is right: newsfilter sucks.

But MetaFilter isn't a democracy and newsfilter, last time I looked, is allowed here. For the most part, the complaints aren't that it's news, but that it isn't american news. I don't think that's a valid criterion for deletion.
posted by timeistight at 3:30 PM on September 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


Crewe Alexandra, klangklangston. True inheritors of the Corinthian mantle, "Most Admired Club 2006" and Welsh Cup winners in 1936 and 1937! What more could you want?
posted by Abiezer at 3:34 PM on September 20, 2007


Nudity.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:54 PM on September 20, 2007


“the complaints aren't that it's news, but that it isn't american news. I don't think that's a valid criterion for deletion.”

I completely agree.

“but I think the quality of the thread is an important metric.”

Why? You can only know that after-the-fact. I recognize that as a practical matter, where admins make the judgment about deletion, it is a reasonable metric. But that's a different thing that being a reasonable metric for justifying the existence of a post in general. The latter gives the impression that good discussion can save a post, which is only the case when the post is marginal in the first place. Otherwise, it doesn't matter. So people oughtn't be thinking about it in the first place. Defending a post on these grounds is irrelevant because the argument isn't whether it should be deleted or not, but whether the post should have been made in the first place. Those are two different situations.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:02 PM on September 20, 2007


While EB is bang-on that no brainer FPPs like the one he posted (Seriously, a fucking Amazon link? Forget about 'Well, someone's gonna post it', the blatant URL inflation of adding an Amazon link in an FPP warrants immediate deletion) are crap, it's a mistake to make a blanket condemnation of any type of -Filter, whether it be News, YouTube, Gadget, or Flash Game. They all have their flaws, but they have their merits as well.

matteo and languagehat both make good points, it's not the category of post that matters, it's the construction - which arguably could include the comments, IMO. Yeah, the football post could be put together better for those folks unfamiliar with the sport or characters, but hey, that could be said of the Stephen Fry FPP as well. Making your post accessible to as wide an audience as possible is a plus, but considering MeFi's global membership and audience, there's no way you can please everyone all the time.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:18 PM on September 20, 2007


It's not just any one link post. It's a special one link post.
posted by popcassady at 4:34 PM on September 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


Needs more Mandom.
posted by fandango_matt at 4:47 PM on September 20, 2007


So, the real question is—What team should I root for? I mean, look, I can't root for Chelski or Arse because they're like the Yankees and Lakers, right? And I can't root for Newcastle, because that's my pal's team, and he's been on it longer than I have. Who's next in the "credible threat, easy to watch, doesn't have primarily-douche fans"? I want a team that I can vaguely endorse and root for on those rare occassions that I can catch one of their games.

ManU is pretty Yankess/Lakers so I'd assume you wouldn't want them, otherwise they're probably your best bet for a credible threat.
Otherwise, probably Liverpool.
Based only on current standings, West Ham & Man City look pretty good, but if recent seasons past are any indication, they'll not be in the running for long.
posted by juv3nal at 4:49 PM on September 20, 2007


WHITE.
posted by Effigy2000 at 4:52 PM on September 20, 2007


If that constitutes a good post then I'll FPP every Arsenal result from here till the end of the season no problem.

Can do that all you want on SportsFilter. Many of us are Arsenal supporters.
posted by terrapin at 4:55 PM on September 20, 2007


What makes 'What makes "I don't care" a good comment?' a good comment?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:57 PM on September 20, 2007


ha HA see what I did there?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:57 PM on September 20, 2007


I played soccer at the YMCA when I was a kid and it was fun, but for some reason passionate American soccer fans rub me the wrong way, kind of like people who insist on calling a tallboy of Bud a 'pint,' and who say 'ay wot, guv' nor' even though they're from New Jersey.
posted by jonmc at 4:59 PM on September 20, 2007


What makes "What makes "I don't care" a good comment?" a good comment?

Who knows?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:00 PM on September 20, 2007


Oh, come on.

Mourinho's resignation is one of the biggest stories of the year in club football.

Yet-another-Russian-oligarch buying some shares in Arsenal is not one of the biggest stories of the year.

Posts that are made to make a point, rather than on merit, rarely fly here.

If this isn't deleted, I'll have no choice but to post a one-link FPP about Raith Rovers' recent surprising defeat at the hands of Ross County.
posted by Aloysius Bear at 6:16 PM on September 20, 2007


Christ, what an Arse-hole.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:18 PM on September 20, 2007


brautigan - you might want let DevilsAdvocate's comment sink in a bit.
posted by CKmtl at 6:19 PM on September 20, 2007


If no pizza or soup is being tossed around, Arsenal is not post-worthy.
posted by Brocktoon at 6:29 PM on September 20, 2007


So, the real question is—What team should I root for?

ESPN's Sports Guy did a pretty in-depth analysis of this exact question last year and came up with Tottenham Hotspur.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:30 PM on September 20, 2007


I hope we have more of them. But they'd better not be NewsFilter non-US posts because you know what? Those suck. They are bad posts.

I guess I agree, but given the site's US-centricness (forgive me for that), the likelihood of the post being great was kind of low. When this sort of thing happens with a US-related post, there are hundreds of members winding up an angled post about it, so once in a while it turns out well. I think matteo's comment shows it could have been a fantastic post about an amazing, infuriating enigma of a guy, and someone completely new to most readers of the site.

It didn't work out that way. It'd be nice to see some of those links and some backstory get into the thread for posterity or someone rework it, but all posts here are somewhere on a bell curve. This one just happened to be a bit further behind than you'd like. If Michael Vick deserves 1+ posts here, The Special One definitely gets one. Here's a better link.
posted by yerfatma at 6:38 PM on September 20, 2007


ESPN's Sports Guy did a pretty in-depth analysis of this exact question last year and came up with Tottenham Hotspur.

And if he did it again this year he'd have slit his wrists. I went with Everton around the same time: not front-runners, long history, second team in their town. Just don't expect them to win the EPL or something.
posted by yerfatma at 6:39 PM on September 20, 2007


So, the real question is—What team should I root for?

The team with the most disposable income. Seriously.
posted by brautigan at 6:45 PM on September 20, 2007


ibmcginty writes 'Disclaimer: I hate all sport sports except poker and heavyweight boxing.'

OK, I was being facetious regarding poker, but I think you'll find that sport is an acceptable plural of sport.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:20 PM on September 20, 2007


Mayonnaise.

(Sorry, I saw the name Brautigan too many times and couldn't help myself.)
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 7:25 PM on September 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


I went with Everton around the same time: not front-runners, long history, second team in their town. Just don't expect them to win the EPL or something.

No, if you were going to support a team that you wanted to see actually win something, you'd be better off going for the other lot.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:31 PM on September 20, 2007


And if he did it again this year he'd have slit his wrists.

Early days; Spurs will turn out fine. I agree with your Everton recommendation, too. One pretty much can't choose to cheer for any of the big four (Liverpool are a no-go, they're basically the Yankees on a short-term losing streak). Manchester City and Portsmouth are out because they're funded by rich creepy and possibly corrupt foreigners. Supporting Derby would be masochism.

Spurs or Everton for a team that plays relatively good football and will finish in the top half of the table. Sunderland if you feel like backing an underdog.
posted by Infinite Jest at 7:33 PM on September 20, 2007


He didn't fancy Tranmere?
That ESPN article was a charming mix of ignorance and enthusiasm. Not what you'd expect from an American!
posted by Abiezer at 7:36 PM on September 20, 2007


There are lots of things posted to MetaFilter that suck. We don't need a MetaTalk thread for each of them.

Whence this expectation that MetaTalk will be some kind of high-signal, low-noise portal? Seriously? I'm not snarking. I'm just dumbfounded generally by people objecting to others bringing up Blue issues here. That's what this shit is for. I've been around way longer than flags. Flags make moderation easier. They're no substitute for having an arena where the community can sound off about policy.

MeTa is the site where policy gets explored and/or made, and even though long periods of uninterrupted bullshit go by here without a new policy point in sight: SO THE FUCK WHAT? At the very high risk of repeating myself: that's what this shit is for.
posted by scarabic at 8:36 PM on September 20, 2007


It's a great FPP because it's so fucking ballsy.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:17 PM on September 20, 2007


klangklangston - As pretty much everyone else has been ruled out (you can't possibly support Sunderland if you have a pal that supports Newcastle), it looks like you're left with supporting the real Blues. Can't guarantee you goals like this or this every week, but it certainly won't be a boring season.
posted by MrMustard at 4:16 AM on September 21, 2007


That ESPN article was a charming mix of ignorance and enthusiasm. Not what you'd expect from an American!

Simmons is a pretty good writer, if you have any interest in American sports (though he seems to be the cilantro [coriander] of columnists -- love him or hate him), particularly the NBA and/or Boston teams. I seem to remember that he has mentioned in passing in other columns since then that, despite his dispassionate, reasoned analysis, he finds his natural inclination leaning towards one of the other finalists (Newcastle? Liverpool?) whenever he checks in on the EPL.
posted by Rock Steady at 4:39 AM on September 21, 2007


The reason this was a bad post was not because it was newsfilter. It's not because it was sportsfilter. It's not related to the actual subject at all.

Rather, it was a bad post because it's a single link to the BBC, which everyone in the known universe reads. Fer chrissake, it's on the default bookmark bar in Firefox these days. It was a zero-effort post with information that was literally two clicks away for anyone who would possibly care about it.

I shouldn't have made my catty comment there, but the post really, really sucks.
posted by Malor at 4:59 AM on September 21, 2007


it was a bad post because it's a single link to the BBC, which everyone in the known universe reads.

That's a bad argument, and it's bad no matter what you substitute for "the BBC" (which, as it happens, I don't read). But enjoy your simplistic righteousness.
posted by languagehat at 5:25 AM on September 21, 2007


I agree with your Everton recommendation, too. One pretty much can't choose to cheer for any of the big four (Liverpool are a no-go, they're basically the Yankees on a short-term losing streak).

Traditionally, it was a way of determining religious affiliation. Roman Catholics supported Everton, Protestants supported Liverpool.

I say this as someone who grew up, the child of a mixed marriage, equidistant between the two grounds. Marital conflict dominated our Saturday afternoons.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:06 AM on September 21, 2007


And of course, during the 60's, Everton had historically been the winningest team. Liverpool's ascendance to total dominance is a relatively recent phenomenon.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:08 AM on September 21, 2007


And of course, Wylie has an Everton song as well:

First they take your pride,
Then turn it all inside,
And then you realise you got nothing left to lose.
So you try to stop,
Try to get back up,
And then you realise you're telling the Story of the Blues.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:21 AM on September 21, 2007


PeterMcDermot - That link above to the song Heart as Big as Liverpool. They play that song during the halftime break on Liverpool's live web commentary channel. I hate it with a passion, so thanks.

I know that traditionally Everton was the Catholic club, but has it shifted in recent (say the last 30) years? I'm thinking of all the Liverpool V Celtic love-ins that have happened over the years, as well as the strong Irish (or at least Republlic of Ireland qualified) contingent in the squad in the late.

So you grew up under a bush in Stanley Park, right?
posted by Sk4n at 8:12 AM on September 21, 2007


I've been around way longer than flags.

You and a good chunk of the user base here. Still, good for you.

Anyway, the post was a single link sportsfilter post. I'm sure you can search MetaTalk to find other MetaTalk threads on the subject. There is nothing particularly exceptional about this post that warrants discussing it further.

You don't need to read this site for very long to pick up on the fact that single link posts to the BBC aren't that hot, regardless of the subject matter.
posted by chunking express at 8:24 AM on September 21, 2007


That'd be late 80s. Sorry.
posted by Sk4n at 8:47 AM on September 21, 2007


Roman Catholics supported Everton, Protestants supported Liverpool.

Interesting. My future in-laws contain a number of Scousers (Liverpool supporters, to be more exact) of Catholic extraction. It's unfortunate we'll only have the one life-or-death difference to argue about.
posted by yerfatma at 9:24 AM on September 21, 2007


Hmm. So, Everton or Birmingham?

Really, I want the experience of being a Detroit fan (specifically baseball or hockey) translated into EPL: a long history, a sense of noble struggle that makes it fun to support even when they lose, a sense of scrappiness, but also the potential to win it all every ten years or so.

I've also got to find a Mexican team (because I can get their games) to support… I wish I could get Japanese baseball games, since they have a Tigers that I'd love to get behind, though I know next to nothing about them.
posted by klangklangston at 10:11 AM on September 21, 2007


Sadly klangklangston, English football doesn't have even that slight edge of unpredictability that American sports tend to. It is ridiculously unlikely that anyone outside of the big four (Arsenal, Man U, Chelsea and Liverpool) will win the Premiership any time soon without the interference of an Abramovich style sugar-daddy. I'll confess that Everton probably have the better chance of sneaking a trophy (the world famous Carling Cup, for example), I'll concede that they have a far more illustrious history, but the glory of being a Bluenose lies not in victories, but in the fact people continue to support them in spite of years and years and years of inglorious failure. Witness that right now, more than five thousand miles away from you, a grown man is sitting at his keyboard beseeching you to throw your lot in with Birmingham City. Trophies just don't buy you that kind of passion.

Finally, in a desperate attempt to bribe you into a decision you will doubtless regret for the rest of your football supporting life, I hereby promise to take you to a Birmingham City game should you ever find yourself in the UK. And you can't say fairer than that.
posted by MrMustard at 10:43 AM on September 21, 2007


"but the glory of being a Bluenose lies not in victories, but in the fact people continue to support them in spite of years and years and years of inglorious failure."

So, it's like being a Detroit Lions fan? (Seriously, look them up.) Maybe being a Bluenose is for me. What's Birmingham like?
posted by klangklangston at 10:48 AM on September 21, 2007


It's the UK's second city and has a proud industrial heritage. It's currently undergoing a bit of a renaissance with some amazing buildings going up. Still, it's biggest asset is it's people. Warm, generous, humourous, self-deprecating and utterly unintelligible to anyone from outside the city.
posted by MrMustard at 11:02 AM on September 21, 2007


Eh, MrMustard? Wasn't there that study not so long back of relative competitiveness in various top professional sports that actually put the EPL somewhere up the top in terms of likely upsets etc? Don't make me Google it!
I'd take your point that only a few sides have the squad to sustain a championship bid in any given season, but even that cast of characters does shift over time, and as that study said, apparently slightly more so in England than in, say, Italy or Spain.
posted by Abiezer at 11:09 AM on September 21, 2007


Well I'm certainly not going to google it for you. Especially not if it counters my purely intuitive argument.

Fact is the advent of the Premiership has made the English game less competitive at the very top. More money, and therefore the means to buy success, is now concentrated in the hands of fewer clubs and the chances of breaking into that group are slimmer than ever. Look up how many clubs outside of that four have won either the Premiership or the FA Cup (the major cup competition) since the Premiership began. I suspect you'll find it's very few.
posted by MrMustard at 11:24 AM on September 21, 2007


OK, you bastards made me google it for you. Here you go. Since 1992 only one team other than Man U, Arsenal, and Chelsea, and that's Blackburn Rovers (1994-5). Sounds like the trophy goes to MrMustard.
posted by languagehat at 11:33 AM on September 21, 2007


Not so fast, languagehat! I've got yer study right here! Except that's probably not the one I had in mind as it compares the EPL to US sports and doesn nothing to back up my pulled-out-me-arse claims about Italy and Spain. But I'll be back one Google comes up with something spurious I can throw into the ring, mark me words!
posted by Abiezer at 11:40 AM on September 21, 2007


It's the UK's second city and has a proud industrial heritage. It's currently undergoing a bit of a renaissance with some amazing buildings going up. Still, it's biggest asset is it's people. Warm, generous, humourous, self-deprecating and utterly unintelligible to anyone from outside the city.

That's what the brochures say anyway.
posted by srboisvert at 11:46 AM on September 21, 2007


Ooh, and get this. It's far too much like a proper study, so I have no idea what he's saying other than more money coming in sees a decline in competitive balance and Italy has been slightly worse in this regard than the EPL. Otherwise, looks like MrMustard wins. They don't call him mean for nothing.
posted by Abiezer at 11:50 AM on September 21, 2007


Still, it's biggest asset is it's people.


That's what the brochures say anyway.

Their Visitors' Bureau needs to hire better copy editors, then.
posted by dersins at 12:40 PM on September 21, 2007


God dersins, you're right. That's terrible. What can I say? I guess I was just getting a little over-excited about the possibility of recruiting a brand new Bluenose.
posted by MrMustard at 1:02 PM on September 21, 2007


Still, its biggest asset is it's people. Like soylent green.
posted by blue_beetle at 2:58 PM on September 21, 2007


Does this city make my asset look big?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:02 PM on September 21, 2007


languagehat: "That's a bad argument, and it's bad no matter what you substitute for "the BBC" (which, as it happens, I don't read). But enjoy your simplistic righteousness."

Do you have to go for the ad hominem? Can't you just argue the facts?

The BBC is one of the largest sites on the web. Except in very unusual circumstances, a one-link post to the their site is a waste of time, just as it is with content from Digg and Slashdot and Reddit. Anyone who's interested in current BBC content can literally get there in two clicks, and anyone running Firefox has that functionality installed by default.

If you're not going to add value to the post by linking more than what the BBC/Digg/Slashdot offers, then just don't post it.

There are a few exceptions: some things are just so jaw-dropping that they warrant mention. But a one-linker about this particular guy is no more a front-page-worthy post than a one-linker about OJ getting arrested. Anyone who's interested will already know, and people that are ignorant on the subject are given no tools to understand why it's even vaguely important.
posted by Malor at 4:10 PM on September 21, 2007 [1 favorite]


Malor, I made the same argument a long time ago about the NYT, and I lost it. (Not that I was proven wrong, but that the majority ruled against me.)
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:13 PM on September 21, 2007


Metatalk: Not that I was proven wrong, but that the majority ruled against me.
posted by vacapinta at 5:58 PM on September 21, 2007


Anyone who's interested in current BBC content can literally get there in two clicks

I can get to pretty much any page on the web in two clicks.
posted by srboisvert at 4:16 AM on September 22, 2007


Dude, you are fucking awesome.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:23 AM on September 22, 2007


I can get to pretty much any page on the web in two clicks.

I can do it in one click. /apple
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:15 AM on September 22, 2007 [1 favorite]


You rubes still use mice?
posted by brain_drain at 8:21 AM on September 22, 2007


goodnewsfortheinsane: omg, paul whitehouse impersonating mourinho! that just made my day! thank you, thank you, thank you.

And most americans won't know who Paul Whitehouse is either. The things you guys are missing...

(yes, shitty post but Mourinho is the best football coach in the world not to mention the one with the biggest ego)
posted by lucia__is__dada at 2:24 PM on September 24, 2007


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