I mean, the guy is on the board of NCMEC! September 11, 2008 5:03 PM Subscribe
How is the question of Jeff Koons' validity as an artist, called into question by his departure from his financial worker past, anything other than chatfilter?
I flagged it at first, too. But the question - am I missing something? - seems valid to me on reflection. It sounds less like an attack to me than a real request for some input on why Jeff Koons is seen as a great artist. Questions like "why are the Beatles so significant?" would be on the border, too, but I think they work.
posted by koeselitz at 5:11 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by koeselitz at 5:11 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
The thread with a lot of one-word answers sucked. Now it's better. It totally an answerable question, though. I have hope. Yay mods!
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 5:14 PM on September 11, 2008
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 5:14 PM on September 11, 2008
How is the question of Jeff Koons' validity as an artist, called into question by his departure from his financial worker past, anything other than chatfilter?
I had a theory of how it might not be chatfilter. I can't think of any other non-subjective criteria that would make him a fraud or con artist. On a financial basis, at least, the question seems reasonably answerable.
However, the asker probably doesn't seem interested if Koons ripped anyone off for money. Any other evaluation seems like a discussion of everyone's personal and subjective opinions about art and legitimacy, which don't really answer the question so much as mark how individuals feel about Koons or his work.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:16 PM on September 11, 2008
I had a theory of how it might not be chatfilter. I can't think of any other non-subjective criteria that would make him a fraud or con artist. On a financial basis, at least, the question seems reasonably answerable.
However, the asker probably doesn't seem interested if Koons ripped anyone off for money. Any other evaluation seems like a discussion of everyone's personal and subjective opinions about art and legitimacy, which don't really answer the question so much as mark how individuals feel about Koons or his work.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:16 PM on September 11, 2008
How is it chatfilter? It's a pretty clear question (albeit poorly put) with a pretty clear answer.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:18 PM on September 11, 2008
posted by Sys Rq at 5:18 PM on September 11, 2008
You can't delete things on 9/11 anyway. It's a "free pass" day on the internet, terrorists win and all that noise.
posted by ORthey at 6:08 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ORthey at 6:08 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's chatfilter at all. OP doesn't know what modern art is about. while the question is poorly phrased, it's asking for an introduction to the subject.
the OP does not want to hear people say "oh yeah, total fraud" but to know why everyone else thinks koons isn't. it's a "why is this supposed to be good?" question.
posted by krautland at 7:25 PM on September 11, 2008
the OP does not want to hear people say "oh yeah, total fraud" but to know why everyone else thinks koons isn't. it's a "why is this supposed to be good?" question.
posted by krautland at 7:25 PM on September 11, 2008
It's a "free pass" day on the internet
have you been rickrolled one too many times?
posted by krautland at 7:26 PM on September 11, 2008
have you been rickrolled one too many times?
posted by krautland at 7:26 PM on September 11, 2008
OP doesn't know what modern art is about.
Gerhard Richter is my father. But, whatever you believe to be true must be true.
posted by plexi at 8:03 PM on September 11, 2008 [4 favorites]
Gerhard Richter is my father. But, whatever you believe to be true must be true.
posted by plexi at 8:03 PM on September 11, 2008 [4 favorites]
I'm sure you can enlighten us as to "what modern art is all about," krautland. This ought to be good.
posted by Liosliath at 8:04 PM on September 11, 2008
posted by Liosliath at 8:04 PM on September 11, 2008
I'm glad you posted this, parmanparman. I flagged it as chatfilter as well, but I think I might have kind of changed my mind, as the discussion there has gone on.
posted by rtha at 8:06 PM on September 11, 2008
posted by rtha at 8:06 PM on September 11, 2008
His work would be "modern art" if there was a naked japanese women peeing on it. As it stands now, not so much.
posted by puke & cry at 8:25 PM on September 11, 2008
posted by puke & cry at 8:25 PM on September 11, 2008
Gerhard Richter is my father.
From wikipedia: "Richter is considered by some critics as one of the most important German artists of the post-World War II period[citation needed] and is also one of the world's most expensive, with his paintings often selling for several million dollars apiece."
So... why ask us?
posted by GuyZero at 8:56 PM on September 11, 2008
From wikipedia: "Richter is considered by some critics as one of the most important German artists of the post-World War II period[citation needed] and is also one of the world's most expensive, with his paintings often selling for several million dollars apiece."
So... why ask us?
posted by GuyZero at 8:56 PM on September 11, 2008
I though it was kind of chat of chat-filter-y, mostly because of the annoying word "fraud". But then I re-wrote the question in my head as :"Suggest some ways to think about Jeff Koons," and then I read some worthwhile answers to that question, and responded myself. Everybody's happy.
posted by neroli at 10:29 PM on September 11, 2008
posted by neroli at 10:29 PM on September 11, 2008
I often find the worst of posts are completely awesome when i re-write them in my head.
posted by puke & cry at 10:43 PM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by puke & cry at 10:43 PM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]
Thank God Koeselitz and Neroli posted in that thread—it was filled with deadly stupids.
Koons reminds me of a problem that kept coming up during a class I took on the philosophy of aesthetics—people seemed unwilling to grant that something could be art and also be bad art. Instead, every time they saw something they didn't like, they'd simply say it wasn't art. For me, Koons is art, but not particularly interesting or profound art, the way that Paris Hilton's album is music, but not particularly interesting music. I fight poptimists over this, their love of pleasure first and foremost. I get pleasure from Koons (at least occasionally), but no depth, and without depth, there's nothing to return to. The comparisons to Duchamp and Warhol are lazy and facile (the equivalent of Koons in criticism, I'd say), in that Koons is all about the nihilism of surface, where Warhol and Duchamp (especially fucking Duchamp—I want to throttle folks who compare him to Koons or vice versa) were exploring a broader world around them.
And, frankly, there's so much pleasure that can be had in the world by simply using a compositional conceptual framing that Koons' work is generally superfluous after that one brief moment. I know that's the point, but (as a corollary to bad art) the point's fucking stupid and cliched (which is also the point—which is meta-stupid).
posted by klangklangston at 12:08 AM on September 12, 2008 [5 favorites]
Koons reminds me of a problem that kept coming up during a class I took on the philosophy of aesthetics—people seemed unwilling to grant that something could be art and also be bad art. Instead, every time they saw something they didn't like, they'd simply say it wasn't art. For me, Koons is art, but not particularly interesting or profound art, the way that Paris Hilton's album is music, but not particularly interesting music. I fight poptimists over this, their love of pleasure first and foremost. I get pleasure from Koons (at least occasionally), but no depth, and without depth, there's nothing to return to. The comparisons to Duchamp and Warhol are lazy and facile (the equivalent of Koons in criticism, I'd say), in that Koons is all about the nihilism of surface, where Warhol and Duchamp (especially fucking Duchamp—I want to throttle folks who compare him to Koons or vice versa) were exploring a broader world around them.
And, frankly, there's so much pleasure that can be had in the world by simply using a compositional conceptual framing that Koons' work is generally superfluous after that one brief moment. I know that's the point, but (as a corollary to bad art) the point's fucking stupid and cliched (which is also the point—which is meta-stupid).
posted by klangklangston at 12:08 AM on September 12, 2008 [5 favorites]
How is this call-out anything other than an example of peevishness which would have been better expressed via use of the flagged as... feature?
There's only so much #666666 to go around, people! And once we hit Peak Grey, MeTa's pretty much done for!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:21 AM on September 12, 2008
There's only so much #666666 to go around, people! And once we hit Peak Grey, MeTa's pretty much done for!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:21 AM on September 12, 2008
"Richter is considered by some critics as one of the most important German artists of the post-World War II period."
Maybe, but he's no Jeff Koons.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:23 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
Maybe, but he's no Jeff Koons.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:23 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
I often find the worst of posts are completely awesome when i re-write them in my head.
Wow. Do you add "in bed" to all askme posts too? I thought I was the only one... AskMe questions are just as good for this as fortune cookies...
here are a few suggestions from today's front page
posted by qvantamon at 12:43 AM on September 12, 2008
Wow. Do you add "in bed" to all askme posts too? I thought I was the only one... AskMe questions are just as good for this as fortune cookies...
here are a few suggestions from today's front page
posted by qvantamon at 12:43 AM on September 12, 2008
I have nothing to say in this thread.
Look ma, I'm an artist!
posted by ghost of a past number at 2:19 AM on September 12, 2008
Look ma, I'm an artist!
posted by ghost of a past number at 2:19 AM on September 12, 2008
Gerhard Richter is my father
Wait, what?
If Gerhard Richter is your father (I'll take this moment to line up in most any "Gushing about Richter's Paintings" thread/discussion) I can't believe you haven't read or had access to good, sound discussion of Koons' work, and I don't just mean sycophantic part-time poets who will write for any art catalogue/review that they can and who button-hole you at parties/openings and then follow you to the dinner afterwards and then on to the bar though no one told them where you were meeting and where he starts coming onto you and your partner in ways that would make a MeatPackingDistrict tranny blush. I mean discussions with people who can think their own thoughts without the terror of going broke. No offense to anyone but MeFi is not where I come for discussions on aesthetic issues.
On the other hand coming here for your answer could provide you with a fresh perspective free of ArtWorld Stink - and I can definitely see the sense in that.
Lastly if Richter is not your father, supposing to be one of his daughters for the sake of an argument is creepy.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:36 AM on September 12, 2008
Wait, what?
If Gerhard Richter is your father (I'll take this moment to line up in most any "Gushing about Richter's Paintings" thread/discussion) I can't believe you haven't read or had access to good, sound discussion of Koons' work, and I don't just mean sycophantic part-time poets who will write for any art catalogue/review that they can and who button-hole you at parties/openings and then follow you to the dinner afterwards and then on to the bar though no one told them where you were meeting and where he starts coming onto you and your partner in ways that would make a MeatPackingDistrict tranny blush. I mean discussions with people who can think their own thoughts without the terror of going broke. No offense to anyone but MeFi is not where I come for discussions on aesthetic issues.
On the other hand coming here for your answer could provide you with a fresh perspective free of ArtWorld Stink - and I can definitely see the sense in that.
Lastly if Richter is not your father, supposing to be one of his daughters for the sake of an argument is creepy.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:36 AM on September 12, 2008
I don't know if Richter really is Plexi's father (and I have no reason to assume otherwise), but I thought that krautland's comments were rude and dismissive.
posted by Liosliath at 5:15 AM on September 12, 2008
posted by Liosliath at 5:15 AM on September 12, 2008
gerhard richter was my father
Francis Bacon was my Nanny, so i win.
posted by sgt.serenity at 6:19 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
Francis Bacon was my Nanny, so i win.
posted by sgt.serenity at 6:19 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
I understood plexi's statement in context of the second sentence in the comment: But, whatever you believe to be true must be true.
I don't think plexi is actually Gerhard Richter's child. For one, plexi is American and Gerhard Richter is German and has lived there for the last, oh, lifetime.
posted by Kattullus at 7:30 AM on September 12, 2008
I don't think plexi is actually Gerhard Richter's child. For one, plexi is American and Gerhard Richter is German and has lived there for the last, oh, lifetime.
posted by Kattullus at 7:30 AM on September 12, 2008
Ha, kattullus, I think you're right. I don't know why I didn't read it that way. Funny.
posted by Liosliath at 8:01 AM on September 12, 2008
posted by Liosliath at 8:01 AM on September 12, 2008
Gerhard Richter is my father.
so you and daddy don't talk a lot, eh?
posted by krautland at 8:22 AM on September 12, 2008
so you and daddy don't talk a lot, eh?
posted by krautland at 8:22 AM on September 12, 2008
My father is Carl Andre and Equivalent VIII is actually a portrait of me as a child.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:11 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:11 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
Moses is my gramma.
posted by timeistight at 2:39 PM on September 12, 2008
posted by timeistight at 2:39 PM on September 12, 2008
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
That's where I'm coming from, anyway. Not a perfect question, but seemed salvagable.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:07 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]