Take it to Metatalk if you don't like it.

September 24, 2008 5:33 AM

Blazecock Pileon says " I'm not playing your games. Own your comments. Take it to Metatalk if you don't like it. And that's the last I will hear from you, because you're going to be ignored."

Yesterday, I deposited this comment into this thread.

Blazecock Pileon added this comment:

It speaks much about you, that you believe the desire not to be murdered by fundamentalists is a request for special treatment.

and racked up 18 favorites.

Now I don't mind that BP disagrees with me, but I thought the "It speaks much about you" preface was a bit over the top.

So I send BP a Mefi-mail.

Blazecock Pileon:

(I repeat the comments we both posted)

And I was going write: It speaks much about you that you make the most uncharitable reading possible and then draw the most damning conclusion about the poster without even bothering to ask "what did you mean by.."

But I decided to deposit it here in your mailbox instead of in that thread.

Let's play nice.

3bm

BP replies: "Or you could just admit you were wrong. Up to you."

I reply:

You're missing the point amigo.

You've been posting on Metafilter long enough to understand how we play, right?

You can disagree with what I say - I don't care about that - it was the ad hominen framing of your comment that was uncool.

You don't have to admit you were wrong. Just - please - do try to follow the guidelines.

Up to you.

3bm

The response to this was "Take it to Metafilter."

I reply:

In case you missed it:

note: Help maintain a healthy, respectful discussion by focusing comments on the issues, topics, and facts at hand—not at other members of the site.

I saw some litter in that thread, did my civic duty, and deposited it where it belongs.

You can dump your bin into Metatalk yourself."

BP's final reply "not playing your games" opens this post.

My attempt to follow-up:

"Sorry, this user has blocked messages from you."

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please settle this dispute for us.

posted by three blind mice to Etiquette/Policy at 5:33 AM (318 comments total)

if only we had an "ignore" feature.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:41 AM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

Oh, boy.

*puts on football helmet*
posted by jonmc at 5:42 AM on September 24, 2008

If someone insists on acting like that, there's not anything the rest of us can do.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 5:44 AM on September 24, 2008

Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be. Whisper words of wisdom, let it be. And when the broken-hearted people living in the world agree, there will be an answer, let it be. For though they may be parted there is still a chance that they will see, there will be an answer. Let it be.
posted by orange swan at 5:45 AM on September 24, 2008 [5 favorites]

Do you don't you want me to love you
I'm coming down fast but I'm miles above you
Tell me tell me come on tell me the answer
and you may be a lover but you ain't no dancer

Go helter skelter
posted by jonmc at 5:48 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

This kind of crap will continue just as long as the mods allow it.

A lot of people here have a bad habit of demonizing the people they don't agree with-and there is not shortage of insults and inflammatory language.

This is very bad for the site. It needs to stop.

If a person is not mature enough to make a point in a polite manner, NOT directing venom at another member of the site, I don't think they need to foul up the joint for the rest of us.

If you are so upset at another poster that you want to rail at them, it's time to take a break from the keyboard or at the very least go look at lolcats or something.
posted by konolia at 5:51 AM on September 24, 2008 [8 favorites]

*opens up etrade account and searches for "popcorn."
posted by allkindsoftime at 5:52 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

Her majesty's a pretty nice girl
but she doesn't have a lot to say
Her majesty's a pretty nice girl
but she changes from day to day
I wanna tell her that I love her a lot
but I gotta get a belly full of wine
Her majesty's a pretty nice girl
someday I'm gonna make her mine
Oh, yeah, some day I'm gonna make her mine
posted by SteveInMaine at 5:54 AM on September 24, 2008

I missed that thread earlier.

Speaking as a former Immigration & Refugee lawyer*, what a bunch of absolute twaddle most people were saying there. Now I have an idea what the finance guys felt in all those recent Wall St threads.

* yeh, yeh, different jurisdiction, whatever. same UN conventions.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:54 AM on September 24, 2008

Both you and Blazecock are, with all the goodwill in the world, members who are fond of making controversial, shooty-from-the-hippy, zingy kind of remarks that stick in other's craws from time to time. (You were called out in a collosal goat-fuck of a racism thread a few months back, IIRC, in which you, in my opinion willfully, didn't respond.

So, tortured syntax aside, you'll excuse me if I hold up a large red leather handbag and sarcastically exclaim "Wooooooooo!"

By which I mean, hey, dude, chill.

Not to mention, quoting people emails...without permission...within the city boundaries....well, that ain't legal either.
posted by Jofus at 5:58 AM on September 24, 2008 [23 favorites]

A metafilter member once emailed me to call me a "cunt." Did I take it to Metatalk? No, I did not. Harken ye and do likewise.

Thus endeth the lesson.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:58 AM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

Not to mention, quoting people emails...without permission...within the city boundaries....well, that ain't legal either.

NTM, somebody doing this same thing led to a huge blowout awhile back...and quite frankly it's too early in the morning for that.
posted by jonmc at 6:00 AM on September 24, 2008

You know he is being rude. That's that. Blazecock has been here a long time, and he's not going anywhere. What do you want, an apology? Public chastisement? This thread will solve nothing. Be the bigger person and let it go.
posted by Roger Dodger at 6:03 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

I'm an immigrant in Sweden. I pay my taxes, obtain my visas in good time, stay out of trouble, and generally do my best to follow the laws. I recognize and accept that am a guest in this country. I have no little sympathy for other immigrants who break or ignore the rules and then expect special treatment.

seems like you were the one focused on yourself first, no?

the fact that the immigrants in question were neither ignoring nor breaking the (insane & unjust) rules probably didn't help your case either - commenting without reading the relevant articles is not a good idea - doing it self-righteously is pretty much asking for smackdown

that said, i personally preferred scrump's

and UbuRoivas? no one's stopping you from going over and clarifying the issues so that the twaddling might cease
posted by jammy at 6:04 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

no one's stopping you from going over and clarifying the issues so that the twaddling might cease

yeh, i know, but it's late, i'm tired, i've had no more than about five hours' sleep each of the past three nights, and i'm more interested in a tasty glass of shiraz right now than arguing law with non-law-talking-guys.

especially when somebody'll just pull the jurisdiction carpet out from under my feet.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:10 AM on September 24, 2008

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please settle this dispute for us.

Charge the First: You made a bunch of dick assumptions about the case and called them criminals. BP called you out on that. Guilty.

Charge the Second: Unwilling to live with being a dick, you tried to get BP to give you a pass. He refused. Guilty.

Charge the Third: Unwilling to live with being an even worse dick, you posted to MeTa. You are being even more called out now. Guilty.

Sentence: Turn off the internet by the neck until DEAD.
posted by DU at 6:13 AM on September 24, 2008 [13 favorites]

Thank you for reminding me I needed to agree with BP. Your comment there, like so many you have made, does indeed say a lot about you.
posted by yhbc at 6:14 AM on September 24, 2008

We all live in a yellow submarine
A yellow submarine
A yellow submarine

We all live in a yellow submarine
A yellow submarine
A yellow submarine

And our friends
Are all aboard
Many more of them
Live next door
And the band begins to play...
posted by briank at 6:15 AM on September 24, 2008

That's just what Blazecock Pileon does. He misreads comments (perhaps due to a genuine inability to understand--it's hard to say), and then fires off oddly superficial, irrelevant, and combative replies. I like to think he's just entertaining himself, but it's quite possible he thinks he's arguing.

Anyway, like Rodger Dodger suggested, he's not going to stop, so there you have it.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 6:15 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hmm, after reading the article and more of the thread, I think that maybe Blazecock was in the right on this. The fact that you don't like the way he spoke to you doesn't take away from the truth of his statements.
posted by Roger Dodger at 6:16 AM on September 24, 2008

Both you and Blazecock are, with all the goodwill in the world, members who are fond of making controversial, shooty-from-the-hippy, zingy kind of remarks that stick in other's craws from time to time.

Received with all the goodwill in the world: fair enough.

(You were called out in a collosal goat-fuck of a racism thread a few months back, IIRC, in which you, in my opinion willfully, didn't respond.

Actually, in my time zone I missed it. I miss the meat of most threads. Brandon Blatcher was kind enough to send me a backchannel mail - first to ask me what I meant - and in the conversation he pointed me to the Metatalk flogging. Brandon Blatcher is a straight up dude.

We should accept the principle of self-policing as an important asset of this site, not something to be stiff-armed.
posted by three blind mice at 6:16 AM on September 24, 2008

Isn't there some expectation of privacy in using memail? I know it's separate from your issue here, but I'd call you rude if you were to cut-n-paste my private message into a public forum.
posted by peeedro at 6:16 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

People. Beatles lyrics are NOT one-size-fits-all threads.
posted by orange swan at 6:17 AM on September 24, 2008

orange swan: There's nothing you can do that can't be done. Nothing you can sing that can't be sung. Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game. It's easy.
posted by jonmc at 6:21 AM on September 24, 2008 [8 favorites]

Isn't there some expectation of privacy in using memail? I know it's separate from your issue here, but I'd call you rude if you were to cut-n-paste my private message into a public forum.

Good point. "Take it to Metafilter."

I interpreted that as not only permission, but as an instruction.

BP sincere apologies if I misread that.
posted by three blind mice at 6:26 AM on September 24, 2008

Yeah, posting private messages is poor form. I have no little sympathy.
posted by Elmore at 6:26 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

I got blisters on my fishes.
posted by Bernt Pancreas at 6:26 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Well, this is a productive way to spend a Wednesday.
posted by Skorgu at 6:28 AM on September 24, 2008

We should accept the principle of self-policing as an important asset of this site, not something to be stiff-armed.

Word.
posted by Jofus at 6:28 AM on September 24, 2008

I fucking love Brian Jonestown Massacre... in fact I'm listening to them right now. Wwwwwoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Best lyric ever.
posted by strawberryviagra at 6:30 AM on September 24, 2008

Isn't there some expectation of privacy in using memail?

No. There is no expectation of privacy with any form of email anywhere in the world unless a promise of such is explicitly given. Anyone who assumes that emails are private is bound to get trashed by that assumption eventually (provided that they are interesting).
posted by a robot made out of meat at 6:31 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

I wouldn't have seen that thread or favorited that Blazcock Pileon comment if you hadn't pointed them out, so thank you!
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:32 AM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

Didn't some user get banned or at least timeouted or something for posting memails of an argument at one point? I thought it was considered declasse.

Freedom of speech is not the same as freedom from criticism. There are some views that are insulting to hold. Since your comments were obnoxious, I'm not exactly sure why you feel like you should stand above criticism for them.
posted by delmoi at 6:34 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Strange times in Casablanca when people pull down their shades
And it's easy enough for us to look at each other and wonder why
We were to blame
Blame comes remorselessly transfixed
Like the sound of slamming doors
And doors have doors have doors have doors have doors
Like companions have pets they sleep in each other's mattresses
Like maggots in despair
And bleed in each other's nests and make a mess of each other's snares
Strange times in Casablanca
Strange times

They make some striking couples
They make some frustration of the call
And only those who are satisfied by friendship would even pay
Attention to it all
It comes like mail or telegram
It comes expectant as a widow in heat as a widow in the searing heat
And that contentment of depression that delivers most of the time
But cannot help the styling of the horns in the shape of gargoyle
Broken prints savage fingers
Undertaken catamaran

Strange times in Casablanca
We've turned our back on it once before
And we can hear from across the waters what damage it will cause us
And you can smash once more
And they can smash once more
But I don't think anybody wants to smash anymore
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 6:36 AM on September 24, 2008

it was the ad hominen framing of your comment that was uncool

You huwt my widdle feewings!
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 6:37 AM on September 24, 2008

Hmm, after reading the article and more of the thread, I think that maybe Blazecock was in the right on this. The fact that you don't like the way he spoke to you doesn't take away from the truth of his statements.

I don't think so. TBM clearly didn't read the article, because he states "I assume that these people are in the United States illegally", but the article implies that they're here legally seeking asylum, but asylum may soon be denied, resulting in them being deported.

The exact quote that BP is replying to states that TBM isn't sympathetic toward "immigrants who break or ignore the rules and then expect special treatment."

Now, the "special treatment" TBM is talking about is obviously the ability to stay in the U.S. without complying with the applicable immigration laws. As it turns out, the people in the article aren't trying to do that, but BP doesn't point that out.

Instead, he bizarrely reads TBM's comment as characterizing all asylum requests based on religious persecution as "special treatment", or something like that. This obviously isn't what TBM was saying, and while TBM richly deserved to be corrected for assuming the immigrants were in the U.S. illegally, BP doesn't correct him on this.

What's really interesting is that BP's comment doesn't make it clear that he's read the article either.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 6:37 AM on September 24, 2008 [10 favorites]

It's Wednesday?

Shit.

*Gets out of bed - drags comb across head*
posted by Nick Verstayne at 6:37 AM on September 24, 2008 [9 favorites]

What's funny is that this thread is a request for special treatment. You want to be able to post inane, cold-blooded shit without being called out for it, and when you are, rightly, taken to task, you whine that people are being mean.

But if Hessamddin Norani and Sedige Khazravi ask to not be shipped back to a country where they will be brutally murdered, well - you just can't abide by that.

Where the fuck are your priorities?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:38 AM on September 24, 2008 [28 favorites]

Hey man, wake me up before you go-go.

Am I doing this right?
posted by Mister_A at 6:39 AM on September 24, 2008 [4 favorites]

Well, I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused...
posted by jonmc at 6:41 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

Here come old Flat Top, he come
Groovin' up slowly, he got
Juju eyeball, he one
Holy Roller, he got
Hair
Down
To his knees
Got to be a joker he just do what he please
posted by flabdablet at 6:42 AM on September 24, 2008

Dear Askme: Is it better to use a big, heavy bag or a small, light bag in a pursefight?
posted by electroboy at 6:44 AM on September 24, 2008 [7 favorites]

Use a small, light bag full of fishing sinkers.
posted by flabdablet at 6:45 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Jai guru deva om
Nothing's gonna change my world.
posted by Sailormom at 6:45 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

you gotta pay your dues
to get favorites on the blue
cos you know it don't come easy...
posted by jonmc at 6:47 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

He came in hard for Blazecock Pileon,
Protected by his righteous spleen,
But now he pulls up short and wonders,
WTF do these haters mean?

Too soon?
posted by Jofus at 6:55 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

You know my name,
Look up the number
Good evening, and welcome to Slaggers.
posted by Bernt Pancreas at 6:55 AM on September 24, 2008

She told me she worked in the morning and started to laugh.
I told her I didn't and crawled off to sleep in the bath
posted by rtha at 6:56 AM on September 24, 2008

TBM, would you mind just telling us what you want. What would you like to see happen here? We can't make Blazecock Pileon like you. We don't have that power. What's the point of this?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:57 AM on September 24, 2008

Bang Bang Matthew's Silver Banhammer
came down upon the thread....
posted by jonmc at 6:59 AM on September 24, 2008 [6 favorites]

Some people just like to bring the drama.
posted by smackfu at 6:59 AM on September 24, 2008

No. There is no expectation of privacy with any form of email anywhere in the world unless a promise of such is explicitly given. Anyone who assumes that emails are private is bound to get trashed by that assumption eventually (provided that they are interesting).

There is an explicit expectation of privacy as far as not posting personal email or mefimail onto the site without permission goes. This is not a statement about what people in the wide world can do; it is about what it's okay for people on mefi to do regarding their correspondence with other people on mefi.

That the quoted substance of the emails in question is limited and mild is the only thing keeping this post from being a wtf-timeout situation; as it is, it's just wtf.

three blind mice, do not do that.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:06 AM on September 24, 2008

Come for the drama, stay for the popcorn.
posted by daniel_charms at 7:06 AM on September 24, 2008

Blazecock burst in and grinning a grin
He said three blind mice this is a show down

Blind mice was hot he drew first and shot
And blazecock collapsed in the corner
Da, da, da, da, da

Now the doctor came in stinking of gin
And proceeded to lie on the table
He said blazecock you met your match
And blazecock said, Doc it's only a scratch
And I'll be better
I'll be better doc as soon as I am able
posted by TedW at 7:06 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Tell me that you've got everything you want
and your bird can sing
but you don't get me, you don't get...meeeeeeeeee
posted by Lucinda at 7:09 AM on September 24, 2008

But did he order the Code Red?
posted by kbanas at 7:12 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Quoting from other people's email, MeMail, chat transcripts, whatever is timeout territory generally speaking, don't do it here. You were being fighty 3bm, BP called you out. He is no stranger to being fighty himself. Sometimes there's no kiss and make up aspect to Internet fightiness.

We try to police over the top insulting and slagging when we can, when we think the aggrieved is making a good faith and public effort to defuse the situation by whatever means they have available. This to me is not one of those times. Being able to walk away from someone being churlish is a really necessary party of MeFi as hobby versus MeFi as lifestyle.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:16 AM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

Listen, all you haters should get over yourselves and buy and iphone.
posted by garlic at 7:18 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

No no no no
I don't post anymore.
I'm tired of waking up on the floor.
No thank you, please it only makes me sneeze,
and then it makes it hard to find the door.
posted by dirtdirt at 7:20 AM on September 24, 2008

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please settle this dispute for us.

We have ruled that we shall cut the feeling of self righteousness and indignation in half, so you may share it. (SPOILAR: If one of you should step forward to offer it to the other, rather than see it dismantled, that makes him the rightful owner)
posted by piratebowling at 7:21 AM on September 24, 2008 [6 favorites]

Ahh, wiseguy huh?
posted by Mister_A at 7:23 AM on September 24, 2008

You made a fool of everyone.
You made a foo-ool of every-oooeeeone.
posted by kosem at 7:29 AM on September 24, 2008

This thread needs to come with that DOINK-DOINK sound from Law and Order when the scene changes.
posted by cmonkey at 7:31 AM on September 24, 2008 [24 favorites]

Welcome to the internet. Really, is this a serious callout? It sounds more like a kid throwing a tantrum.

On a related note: why do so many people get so upset over a few words from someone they don't know and probably will never meet?

Case in point: I recently attended a conference where a woman who was an online professional type was asked if there was anything she wouldn't post about online. Se said that she would never post about her kids, because to her that crossed the line. Immediately, all the other Mom bloggers in the room got offended and attempted to turn the Q and A session into a debate over the merits of blogging about family. I'm a Mom blogger, too, and my thoughts were, "So? That's her opinion, let it go."

Am I missing the drama gene or something?
posted by misha at 7:31 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

you know, i might just pop in to that thread tomorrow or later, if anybody cares to hear the thoughts of a jaded ex-refugee lawyer.

short form:

* the old couple (to my mind) are blatant economic migrants (read: with a social aspect, ie getting the kids away from the war, avoiding the mullahs, etc. "economic migrants" is a catch-all phrase meaning "people seeking a better life but not fitting in under Convention definitions of people facing persecution)

* (implicit evidence for the above: they *always* send the young men first)

* (assumption: adoption by the uncle was premeditated)

* (speculation: the medical condition might have been contrived)

* fact (contra scrumple): the old couple did not follow the rules - they overstayed a tourist visa by ~20 years, and worked illegally the whole time

* current standing: under a temporary protection visa, until the asylum process is finished. the $200,000 (!!!) would have been spent to prolong the process as much as possible, with hopes of a favourable outcome as a vague possibility. genuine refugees with a solid claim can obviously not be expected to come up with that sort of money, so i'd tend to assume that their evidence for persecution (stoning!) upon returning home might be kinda weak, spurious, fanciful, or potentially falsified.

* general conclusion: harsh as it sounds, three blind mice was right. these people are economic migrants exploiting the refugee system, for their own (understandable) purposes. in doing so, they deprive genuine refugees (living in hardship in shitty camps etc in the third world) of their places.

* meta summary: how can one not have compassion for them? balancing the tension between wanting to help the genuinely needy refugees & wanting to help the equally needy (for different reasons) economic migrants is enough to drive any well-intentioned immigration / refugee lawyer out of that game. it happened to me, and it happened to the people before me. nobody i know of lasted beyond their late 20s in that line of work.

* choice quote: (from a high-powered law-talking-chick who was leaving the agency to take up a nice UN job away from clients) "why am i leaving? you just keep hearing the same stories over & over, and it wears you down"

hm, that might actually do. just had to get it off my chest. now, for some sleep.
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:36 AM on September 24, 2008 [16 favorites]

MeFi as lifestyle.

I accesorise MeFi with these rather fetching Cuban heels and hoop earrings.
posted by Jofus at 7:37 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

In fairness, "your words say much about you" isn't strictly an ad hominem: you're being judged on your argument; ad homnem applies when we ignore the argument but attack you, e.g., "I can't refute what you say, but everyone should know you dress like an emo kid."

(Is "emo" capitalized?)

And frankly, your argument, while not incorrect (lawful immigration generally does imply a consent to the laws of the state immigrated to), is somewhat lacking in empathy: even if you do find yourself violating Swiss law, you're not likely to be doing so because of a justified fear of imminent death.

As a white(?) American, things just aren't that dire for you; "the law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges," etc. etc.

I don't much like being put in the position of judging anyone's disputes, but since that's what you asked for, that's my opinion.
posted by orthogonality at 7:47 AM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

cortex writes "There is an explicit expectation of privacy as far as not posting personal email or mefimail onto the site without permission goes. This is not a statement about what people in the wide world can do; it is about what it's okay for people on mefi to do regarding their correspondence with other people on mefi."

In fairness to tbm, that's new to me too; where's it stated?
posted by orthogonality at 7:48 AM on September 24, 2008

Common sense?
posted by smackfu at 7:50 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Actually, in my time zone I missed it.

Oh bollocks you did. That thread went on for days with people making increasingly strained attempts to explain your apparent racism. You could have shown up at any point, but instead chose not to.

So, you know, fuck you. You want to harp on to us about the importance of self-policing, and dish out the call-outs when you can't take them? Get lost.
posted by bonaldi at 7:53 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

Maybe he meant implicit? Because it is a well-known unwritten law that posting someone's email or MeMail to this or any other site is grounds for an olde-tyme Philly ass-kicking.
posted by Mister_A at 7:54 AM on September 24, 2008

I think this thread is where the stuff about not posting memail came up, including this bit from jessamyn:

FM, you've got a day off here. MeMail posting is 100% not okay.

I suppose it needs a line in the FAQ. Not because it will change any behavior, but because it will give those who need hard-and-fast rules something to point to.
posted by smackfu at 7:58 AM on September 24, 2008

Iggy!
posted by Deathalicious at 7:59 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

i've had no more than about five hours' sleep each of the past three nights

Uh oh! Keep him away from the green, just in case. Might post a "Does anyone know a good immigration lawyer that really works? Not one of those crappy immigration lawyers?"
posted by Deathalicious at 8:06 AM on September 24, 2008

In the immortal words of the Bard: Grow a pair.
posted by substrate at 8:13 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

In fairness to tbm, that's new to me too; where's it stated?

It's in the answer to the "how does MeFiMail work" question in the FAQ. We don't assume that people know it, but we've enforced it a few times rather visibly in MeTa as well and mention it when it comes up. Generally speaking we want members to feel free to communicate with other members using MeMail/email and not worry that sort of thing will come back to bite them on the ass on the site somewhere.

And, to expand a little, we're more worried about direct quoting and he said/he said sort of stuff (kinda like this honestly, but this is pretty small scale) than "I emailed cortex and he said not to worry about it" sorts of things.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:14 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste.

woo woo
posted by owtytrof at 8:24 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

I would like to take this opportunity to condemn and berate Mr. Pileon in the strongest possible terms. I find it unfortunate that I often agree with his opinions and politics, because he is such a fucking blazey, cocky pileoner. I wish he would stop blazing, put his cock away, and stop piling on. Even though, nay, because he is usually right. There's no need to rub it in so hard with the blazey cocky stuff, it's just mean. It wouldn't be so important but for the fact that you are such a central figure here and command such respect and deference from all of us.

Mr. Pileon, is there no amount of pleading or cajoling that might convince you to be less dramatic and self-righteous? Toning down your personal attack mode just a few notches could help make MetaFilter a brighter and sunshinier day kind of place.

I imagine Mr. Pileon as a thin hairless man, doing a Maori haka dance (tongue protuding frighteningly, eyes bulging) whenever he does his blazey cocky piling on. Is it just me? Mr. Pileon, is my image even vaguely accurate?
posted by Meatbomb at 8:27 AM on September 24, 2008 [8 favorites]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please settle this dispute for us.

*dons Judicial robes*

You have two choices.

A) Cut off your hand and mail it to one of the mods.

B) Strip naked and enter this sweat lodge. Blazecock Pileon is already in there. You'll both be administered peyote by an experienced shaman. You will both remain in the lodge until you discover your totem animal spirits and converse with them. They will provide further instructions, as needed.
posted by loquacious at 8:34 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

A) Cut off your hand and mail it to one of the mods.

NOT IT.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:36 AM on September 24, 2008 [16 favorites]

B) Strip naked and enter this sweat lodge. Blazecock Pileon is already in there. You'll both be administered peyote by an experienced shaman. You will both remain in the lodge until you discover your totem animal spirits and converse with them. They will provide further instructions, as needed.

Hey, how come there's two naked guys and some Navajo in my living room? And who turned the radiator up so high? Damn you, loquacious!
posted by jonmc at 8:39 AM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

I'm gonna have a bigger freezer soon, so, you know.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:39 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

why do so many people get so upset over a few words from someone they don't know and probably will never meet?

I think that's part of the problem. In real life, there are strong conventions around being polite to people that you don't know very well, such as coworkers. Close friends or relatives tend to be more informal with eachother and also tend to get into more heated arguments, but there is usually a level of trust involved and people tend to suround themselves with people who agree with them by self-selecting the people that they are close with.

On the Internet, there aren't really any rules and it's difficult to choose who you communicate with unless you only communicate directly with established friends. In real life, for example, you can completely avoid having conversations with religious fundamentalists, sad teenage emo kids, annoying hipsters, etc. for the most part if you choose to do so. But on the Internet, if you participate in any kind of public forum, anyone with a keyboard and half a brain can join in the conversation. That results in being exposed to a lot more viewpoints that you might find annoying or offensive than you would hear in real life. Coming from real life this can be quite a shock, and I think a lot of people never get to the point where they can agree to disagree with others.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:43 AM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

If I had a chance
I'd ask the world to dance
And I'll be dancing with myself

Oh dancing with myself
Oh dancing with myself
If I had a chance
I'd ask the world to dance
posted by never used baby shoes at 8:44 AM on September 24, 2008

• Or you could just admit you were wrong. Up to you.
• I saw some litter in that thread, did my civic duty, and deposited it where it belongs. You can dump your bin into Metatalk yourself.
• Meh, weak. Back to #mefi or #tapes or whatever with you, troll.
In fairness, I was unable to find very much blazey cocky stuff in BCP's recent posting history, so I may have gone off half cocked here. I wish there was more egregious stuff because I found tonnes of good Maori haka videos.

posted by Meatbomb at 8:44 AM on September 24, 2008

for the benefit of three blind mice there will be a show tonight on metatalk.
posted by martinX's bellbottoms at 8:49 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

This is a pileon of Blazecock proportions. <-- I ownz that.
posted by studentbaker at 8:50 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

I look at the thread and see it needs deleting
While jessamyn gently weeps ...
posted by jonmc at 8:52 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

I've got nothing to say,
But it's okay.
(Good Morning! Good Morning! Good Morning!)
posted by timeistight at 8:54 AM on September 24, 2008

that's new to me too; where's it stated?

It's been stated many and many a time, not to mention it should be intuitively obvious.

Also, this is a dumb callout. BP disagreed with you in strong terms and didn't feel like kissing and making up afterwards. So? If you can't take the heat, etc.
posted by languagehat at 8:55 AM on September 24, 2008

In fairness, I was unable to find very much blazey cocky stuff in BCP's recent posting history, so I may have gone off half cocked here.

You've been doing that a lot lately. SMOAK MOAR, RANT LESS.
posted by languagehat at 8:56 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

We're Matthew Haughey's Snarky MeFi Banned
We hope you have enjoyed the thread
We're Matthew Haughey's Snarky MeFi Banned
When the banhammer comes down, your dead...
posted by jonmc at 8:56 AM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

Hey, how come there's two naked guys and some Navajo in my living room?

Huh, you use the same cleaning service I do.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 8:56 AM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

Betcha wonder how I knew
I saw your post on big blue
your thread, it better rock
or they'll drag your ass into Metatalk..

y'know I read it on the Mefi..and my modem's just about to fry, honey honey yeah...
posted by jonmc at 9:00 AM on September 24, 2008

[!]
posted by Sys Rq at 9:05 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please settle this dispute for us.

First, you deserve a timeout for reposting private communication.

Second, you didn't read the article, you said something stupid, and you got called out for it. Getting called out happens here. It's happened to me when I've said stupid things.

Either you own up to your comments, or you move on, or both, but you will not be getting an apology from me, because frankly you don't deserve one.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:07 AM on September 24, 2008 [4 favorites]

~fin~
posted by Mister_A at 9:09 AM on September 24, 2008

If someone disagrees with something you've said and decides to interpret it in a manner that you feel is unflattering, you can either:

a) Clarify your point and hope they recognize you don't, in fact, chase kittens with lawnmowers.
b) Assume that nothing you say will change their misconception and save your breath, hoping that other people will read your comment and take it in the way you intended.
c) Take another look at what you said; perhaps your opponent's view is more valid than you realized.
d) Make a weird MetaTalk post.
e) Damn it, it's the fucking internet, without people talking past one another, the entire structure would collapse in four days.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:09 AM on September 24, 2008

One armed butler.
posted by Artw at 9:10 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

hope they recognize you don't, in fact, chase kittens with lawnmowers.

Wait, there's something wrong with chasing kittens with lawnmowers? Shit, what am I supposed to do for entertainment then?
posted by languagehat at 9:13 AM on September 24, 2008

OH ZING NOT GETTING AN APOLOGY DANG

Jesus, the two of you should just get a room already. In high school, when something like this happened, we started a betting pool on how long it'd be before the two people went to prom with each other and got those god damned ring things with the heart on 'em.

I'm in for ten bucks, and I'm calling November 15th.
posted by scrump at 9:14 AM on September 24, 2008

WE AAARE THE PRIESTS / OF THE TEMPLES / OF SYRINX!
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 9:15 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

Shit, what am I supposed to do for entertainment then?

Chase puppies with lawnmowers.
posted by scrump at 9:16 AM on September 24, 2008

And take me dancing tonight.
I want to hit that hiiiiiiiiiiiigheayhyeahyeah...
posted by Elmore at 9:16 AM on September 24, 2008

OUR GREAT COMPUTERS / FILL THE HALLOWED HALLS!
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 9:17 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Being able to walk away from someone being churlish is a really necessary party of MeFi as hobby versus MeFi as lifestyle.

This sounds really interesting, but I don't understand.. Is churlishness a necessary part of the mefi lifestyle? Or, is the ability to walk away a sign that someone has graduated from the obsessive cumpulsive mefi lifestyle to the lower key healthy mefi hobby? Are the mefi hobbyists the ones who are churlish because they just don't care?

I don't like beans very much, does that mean mefi will only ever be a hobby to me, and that the lifestyle is forever out of my reach?
posted by Chuckles at 9:18 AM on September 24, 2008

Californians invented the concept of "lifestyle".

This alone warrants their doom.
posted by loquacious at 9:29 AM on September 24, 2008

When I was younger, I thought "We Can Work It Out" was an ode to cooperation and brotherhood, but one day I paid attention to the lyrics and realized that its nothing more than a sharply worded demand for total capitulation from the opposing side.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:34 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

Lifestyle is from Adler.

[U]ntil 1929, there was no such thing as a "lifestyle." The word was coined by psychologist Alfred Adler, who wanted to reclaim free will from the psychological determinism of Freud. Adler was unable to accept that our lives are completely programmed by what happens to us in the first five years of childhood. He believed that the individual has the power to choose, to exercise character, and to affect the direction of her or his life. For Adler, "lifestyle" was the sum total of the values, passions, knowledge, meaningful deeds and eccentricities that constitute the uniqueness of each individual.

life
O.E. life (dat. lif), from P.Gmc. *liba- (cf. O.N. lif "life, body," Du. lijf "body," O.H.G. lib "life," Ger. Leib "body"), properly "continuance, perseverance," from PIE *lip- "to remain, persevere, continue, live" (see leave). Much of the modern range of meaning was present in O.E. Extended 1703 to "term of duration (of inanimate objects)." Lifestyle is from 1929, originally a specific term used by Austrian psychologist Alfred Adler (1870-1937); broader sense is from 1961. Life-line is from 1700; fig. sense first attested 1860. Life-and-death "vitally important" is from 1822. Life of Riley is from 1919, perhaps from 1880s song about a man named O'Reilly and how he got rich and lived at ease. Lifer "prisoner serving a life sentence" is slang from 1830.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:37 AM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

Is this the part where I confess that I always pronounce BP's name "Blazecock Pilly-on" in my head when I read it on the screen? No?
posted by shiu mai baby at 9:40 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please settle this dispute for us.

You're both guilty of taking internet "discussion" way too fucking seriously.
posted by dersins at 9:41 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

MetaFilter: Is emo capitalized?
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 9:41 AM on September 24, 2008

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be f-r-i-e-n-d-s?
Woo ooh ooh ooh ooh!
posted by Lynsey at 9:48 AM on September 24, 2008

Can I just say right here and now that threads like this is why I love you guys?

C'mere. C'mon. I got hugs for everybody. It was the Beatles-ing that really did me in at the end. You all win the internet. Now let's go have drinks.

(Wait, what? it's not even 1 p.m. yet? Ah, what the hell. Let's call it 'brunch,' then...)
posted by bitter-girl.com at 9:49 AM on September 24, 2008

I'm just happy to have promoted "churlish" into MeFi's general lexicon.
posted by boo_radley at 9:51 AM on September 24, 2008

UbuRoivas: if only we had an "ignore" feature.

Happily, I have a built-in "distract-myself-from-pointlessly-involved-Metafilter-disputes-that-are-of-no-consequence-to-me-with-delicious-cake" feature.

Which feature I am deploying right now.
posted by koeselitz at 9:59 AM on September 24, 2008

"This is where California comes in. Mud slides, brush fires, coastal erosion earthquakes, mass killings, et cetera. We can relax and enjoy these disasters because in our hearts we feel that California deserves whatever it gets."

"Californians invented the concept of lifestyle. This alone warrants their doom." -Don DeLillo

Both quotes are featured in the Milk Cult song Urine, the Money from the album Burn or Bury. Which is one of the first times I haven't been able to find any given song on YouTube or Google video.

Not refuting your etymology, jessamyn, just pointing out the source of my quote.
posted by loquacious at 10:00 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Although

Jofus: shooty-from-the-hippy

sounds like I'm buying heroin for injection from a guy who smells like patchouli.
posted by koeselitz at 10:08 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Huh. I guess that was you, when that whole thing went down.

Though it had been around prior to that, to be fair.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:10 AM on September 24, 2008

Your sweet nature darling
Was too hard to swallow
I got the solution
I'm leaving tomorrow
And now as I stand
And stare into your eyes
I see safety there
I want surprises

What I really need to do
Is find myself a brand new lover
Somebody who lies with me
And doesn't notice all the others
What I really need to do
Is find a brand new lover...
posted by matty at 10:13 AM on September 24, 2008

why do so many people get so upset over a few words from someone they don't know and probably will never meet?

Anonymity opens up split personality zone -- "Faceless communication online or over phone often turns nice people nasty."
posted by ericb at 10:20 AM on September 24, 2008

Shorter ericb.
posted by scrump at 10:24 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

GOO GOO GA JOOB
posted by philip-random at 10:51 AM on September 24, 2008

But with the over-population and inflation and starvation
And the crazy politicians
I don't feel safe in this world no more
I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an ape man
posted by misha at 10:57 AM on September 24, 2008

I'm a fuel injected legend
I don't wanna be a bore
I just wanna live a rich life
And I wanna die poor
But I won't be happy
Till I'm known far and wide
With my face on the cover
of the TV guide
I sock 'em everywhere that I sing
Cause you know baby
I'm the Next Big Thing
posted by jonmc at 11:00 AM on September 24, 2008

Second, you didn't read the article, you said something stupid, and you got called out for it. Getting called out happens here. It's happened to me when I've said stupid things.

Either you own up to your comments, or you move on, or both, but you will not be getting an apology from me, because frankly you don't deserve one.

I have a problem with "getting called out happens here." I agree with that as a statement of fact, but I don't like the the passively-voiced lack of personal responsibility. I think it should be "Getting called out by ME is something that happens here." Or "Whether people like it or not, I'm going to make call outs."

What exactly is a call out and how does it differ from an insult? To me, this is a call out:

"You're wrong because X."

This is an insult:

"You're stupid because X" or "The fact that you're wrong proves that you are stupid."

My question is why insult? Because it feels good. If that's true, admit it and let the community decide whether they want you as a member. "Whether people like it or not, I'm going to hurl insults sometimes, because I enjoy doing it."

Because you can't help it? "Whether people like it or not, I'm going to hurl insults sometimes. I wish I could stop myself. I can't."

Because you think it causes positive change? "Whether people like it or not, I'm going to hurl insults, because doing so teaches wrongheaded people a lesson."

I have some respect for that last one, except I think it's based on some flawed reasoning. Where's the evidence that abuse tends to change people's behavior in a positive way -- other than just making them defensive and angry. Do you think the way you worded your call out is likely to make TBM repent or realize the error of his ways?
posted by grumblebee at 11:02 AM on September 24, 2008 [8 favorites]

Here, I'll settle it for you.

1) You're correct that these people should have had their visas in order all this time and have themselves to blame in large part for their situation.

2) Given all of that, they have requested asylum on the grounds that they'd be killed upon return to their home countries. This is legitimate grounds for an asylum request. The fact that they've been productive and peaceable (if under-statused) members of the community where they seek asylum should stand in their favor.

You are a bit heartless or at least selective in your attention to simply deliver a tidy little lecture on #1 and then walk away. Someone pointed this out to you in a rather unfriendly fashion, apparently finding your lecture offensive.

And you are a twat for copying an email exchange into MeTa.
posted by scarabic at 11:04 AM on September 24, 2008

What's this?
You want to get in a duel?
Because my fannypack rules the school?
Because my fannypack is really cool?
Or just because you're a fannypack fool?
(Time for a fannypack inspection)
DON'T MESS AROUND WITH MY STAMP COLLECTION!
posted by Bernt Pancreas at 11:05 AM on September 24, 2008

My favorite part of growing up
Is when I'm sick and throwing up...
posted by jonmc at 11:07 AM on September 24, 2008

Why don't we do it in the road? No one will be watching us - why don't we do it in the road?
posted by gingerbeer at 11:09 AM on September 24, 2008

Number 9. Number 9. Number 9. Number 9. Number 9. Number 9. Number 9. Number 9. Number 9. Number 9. Number 9. Number 9. Number 9.
posted by burnmp3s at 11:10 AM on September 24, 2008 [4 favorites]

Happiness is a warm gun
(Bang Bang Shoot Shoot)
Happiness is a warm gun, momma
(Bang Bang Shoot Shoot)
When I hold you in my arms
(Ooooooooohhh, oh yeah!)
And when I feel my finger on your trigger
I know nobody can do me no harm
Because happiness is a warm gun, momma
posted by jonmc at 11:17 AM on September 24, 2008

The funny thing about Blazecock Pileon is that he actually doesn't have an original bone in his body. He's like a Yale Divinity Grad Student, or a retired community college philosophy teacher who only ever got an ABD.
posted by parmanparman at 11:22 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

So tell me pretty baby, are you still talking bout yourself
You're such a non-conformist, just like everybody else
And if you had a heart, tell me would you use it
And if you had a thought, I think you'd confuse it
And if you understood exactly what I'm saying
Would you have the common sense to
Kiss My Ass
Cause I am right
I am right
I am right
I am right

I'd like to take your ego and crush it into a little ball
And then I'd take my baseball bat and knock it over the centerfield wall
Cause if you had a soul, I think you would sell it
And if you had a life, you'd serve your time in hell
Justice can be sweet, power is corrupting
So it would be my pleasure to have you
Kiss My Ass
Cause I am right
I am right
I am right
I am right
posted by jonmc at 11:23 AM on September 24, 2008

Excuse me, but this is where "churlish" got promoted to the MeFi Pantheon of Immortal Words.
posted by languagehat at 11:23 AM on September 24, 2008

Bang! Bang! cortex' banning hammer
Came down UPON his head.
Clang! Clang! cortex' banning hammer
Made sure that he was dead.

This thread needs to come with that DOINK-DOINK sound from Law and Order when the scene changes.

I always thought of that noise as more like BOOZH BOOZH.

And you are a twat for copying an email exchange into MeTa.

'twat' is a relatively mild word for that. TBM, you know--because you have an IQ higher than 10--that quoting private emails publicly is not okay, disingenuous 'I thought 'take it to MeTa was permission' weaseling notwithstanding.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:24 AM on September 24, 2008

This highway is already jammed with broken heroes. Please seek an alternate route for your last chance power drive.
posted by Kwine at 11:30 AM on September 24, 2008 [8 favorites]

I agree with that as a statement of fact, but I don't like the the passively-voiced lack of personal responsibility.

What was passive about it? I haven't denied responding in the manner that I did.

With all due respect for you, because I respect your contributions to the site, I have to admit that I dislike the passive-aggressive implication of some kind of guilt on my part, in the manner of "personal responsibility" for my response. If you have a disagreement with its substance, please feel free to clarify.

Do you think the way you worded your call out is likely to make TBM repent or realize the error of his ways?

As a naturalized citizen, I felt that his strongly-worded, unempathetic, and demonstrably ill-informed views about immigration provoked a clear, unequivocal response on my part. His provocative comment was insulting to immigrants, insulting to citizens, and insulting to people who read the links and agreed that the asylum seekers were being treated poorly.

I was hopeful that confronting stupidity like his may have changed his mind -- though I honestly care little at this point what he thinks, given the manner in which he has behaved -- but it also did help frame his comments correctly, IMO, for the discussion.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:33 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

This is an insult:

"You're stupid because X" or "The fact that you're wrong proves that you are stupid."

BP said neither of those. He said "Your opinion of $X says more about you than about $X." While this comment does express a poor opinion of the person it is directed against, I wouldn't necessarily call it an "insult".
posted by DU at 11:35 AM on September 24, 2008

This highway is already jammed with broken heroes. Please seek an alternate route for your last chance power drive.

*hides on backstreets. tunes in to Radio Nowhere*
posted by jonmc at 11:35 AM on September 24, 2008

Apropos of nothing whatsoever, I just walked through the living room where my mother is watching "Cops" and heard the following dialogue:

Fat White Redneck Cop: Why didn't you stop, Tony?
Tony (irritated black guy): Because I was trying to get the *BLEEEEEP* out of Mississippi.

This is the most sensible thing I've heard all week.

We now return you to your regular call-out.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 11:41 AM on September 24, 2008 [4 favorites]

With apologies to Cake*
---
Well, your favorites collection looks big and you’re cocky
Sixty users marked the thing that you stole from Kottke
And how much did you spend on your seven sock puppets?
Do you think it was worth it to make fun of Jon Lovitz?

Now pictures from meetups, and drinking in threads
Sometimes for callouts of those you wish were dead
And your low user number goes a long way to show
It proves you were there,
Before accounts closed.

How do you afford your MetaFilter lifestyle?
How do you afford your MetaFilter lifestyle?
How do you afford your MetaFilter lifestyle?
Ah, tell me.

*particular apologies because "MetaFilter lifestyle" obviously doesn't scan evenly against "Rock and Roll lifestyle", but if you do it as even eighths, it works well enough, I think.

posted by SpiffyRob at 11:43 AM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

Anyone can have an opinion
Anyone can join in and jump
Anyone can pay or just stay away
Anyone can crash and thump...

Typewriter tappers
You're all just crappers
You listen to love with your intellect...
posted by jonmc at 11:43 AM on September 24, 2008

The funny thing about Blazecock Pileon is that he actually doesn't have an original bone in his body. He's like a Yale Divinity Grad Student, or a retired community college philosophy teacher who only ever got an ABD.
posted by parmanparman

Zing! -wait, aren't you the guy who made the dumbass claim that only illiterates read comic books and then ran away after getting your tail handed to you? Yep.
You're just knocking them outta the park, aren't you?

See? Silly pointless grudges don't solve anything, they only perpetuate the cycle of petty noisemaking.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:44 AM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

In fairness, I was unable to find very much blazey cocky stuff in BCP's recent posting history, so I may have gone off half cocked here.

Meatbomb, I hope the same people who read and favorited your first comment are as fair-minded and read your second comment, as well.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:45 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

The funny thing about Blazecock Pileon is that he actually doesn't have an original bone in his body.

Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 11:50 AM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

Blazemeister, I've enjoyed the company of Mr. Bomb and enjoyed um, stuff, with him. He's good people.
posted by jonmc at 11:51 AM on September 24, 2008

goddammit burnmp3s. I decide to read the whole thread to the bitter end before posting the revolution 9 "lyrics" and there you are right at the last comment. This is an affront that can only be solved with METATALK!

My favorite thing about call-out threads is that in almost every case the community finds the purpose for the call-out petty and ludicrous (the Mutant/Malor stuff is the only kind-of example to the contrary I can think of.)

3bm, I get why you're frustrated, but seriously, if you can't take the hits stay out of the mosh pit, so to speak.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:56 AM on September 24, 2008

I have to admit that I dislike the passive-aggressive implication of some kind of guilt on my part, in the manner of "personal responsibility" for my response. If you have a disagreement with its substance, please feel free to clarify.

I'm sorry I came off as passive-aggressive. To me, you were unclear. POSSIBLY you were being purposefully unclear. But I have no problem giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Here's the problem:

A: Why did you yell at me?
B: If you're going to do things like that, you're going to get yelled at.

I think B's statement is murky (and I think your statement was similarly murky). Why phrase it in a way that doesn't include "I" or "me"? B's phrasing makes it sound like a force of nature is going to ensure A gets yelled at. To me, this seems more straightforward.

A: Why did you yell at me?
B: Because I was angry at you.

Or, if it really IS a force of nature issues...

A: Why did you yell at me?
B: Because when people make me angry, I can't stop myself from yelling.

There are (at least) two issues being discussed here, and I think they're getting a but muddled together:

1. Did TBM do anything wrong?
2. EVEN IF HE DID, was your response appropriate?

In other words, why did you insult/chastise him (you're free to say, "I didn't"). If your reply is, "Because he did something wrong," you're claiming that if someone does something wrong, the correct response is to chastise them. THAT'S what I'd like to see more evidence for. How does chastisement help? How does it add to the sort of discourse we want on this site? What sort of discourse DO we want of this site?

And I'd like to know what "correct" means in this context. Does it mean natural (as in it makes me angry, and being human, I'm going to have such and such a response)? Does it mean useful (as in correct because it helps solve some sort of problem)?

I felt that his strongly-worded, unempathetic, and demonstrably ill-informed views about immigration provoked a clear, unequivocal response on my part.

That is the sort of language that troubles me. What do you mean by "provoked"? If I throw rocks at a bear, I definitely provoke it. There's a sense in which it can't help its attack response. Is that what you mean?

Or do you mean you have a sense of entitlement? If someone says certain things to you, it makes you feel good to respond angrily, and you think you're entitled to do so?

Or what?

I'm not suggesting you're trying to hide your true motives (though maybe you are). I think it's more likely that you're making certain assumptions that not all of share -- or at least I don't share them. If I understand you correctly, you're assuming behavior X necessarily DOES lead to chastisement or behavior X necessarily SHOULD lead to chastisement. Why?
posted by grumblebee at 11:59 AM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

Something she said to me last night
Something she said to me last night
I saw the sun rise and come over my daddy's grave
And I ate some cheese and rice today

Oh wait, wrong something.
posted by Elmore at 12:00 PM on September 24, 2008

Born a poor young country boy
Mother Nature's son
All day long I'm sitting singing songs for everyone
Sit beside a mountain stream
See her waters rise
Listen to the pretty sound of music as she flies

Find me in my field of grass
Mother Nature's son
Swaying daisies sing a lazy song beneath the sun

Oooh, Mother Nature's son.
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:07 PM on September 24, 2008

your both gay lol owned
posted by Damn That Television at 12:08 PM on September 24, 2008

People, people. The noise is clearly "DUNG-DUNG".

Mayyyyyyyybe... if we're going to go down that road, it's more like "DUNGKH-DUNGKH"
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:12 PM on September 24, 2008

I thought Meatbomb was just goofing around, didn't read it as a real critique, but I don't believe much of what I read.

Cuz I like the 'bomb and like Mr. Pileon both.
posted by Mister_A at 12:12 PM on September 24, 2008

That is correct. My both gay did lol own.
posted by SpiffyRob at 12:21 PM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

*particular apologies because "MetaFilter lifestyle" obviously doesn't scan evenly against "Rock and Roll lifestyle", but if you do it as even eighths, it works well enough, I think.

The key is to make it "metafiltr". That way it fits, and as an added benefit you're all web 2.0 and stuff.
posted by inigo2 at 12:21 PM on September 24, 2008

I just want to say that I have never liked the Beatles. I mean, I respect the hell out of them, but, if I want to listen to music, I'm more likely to plug in the Sonics and just GARAGE ROCK THE FUCK OUT.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:21 PM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

Wait, so are we supposed to pronounce 2.0ish words as if they were one syllable? If so, trying to get "Flickr" out of my mouth sounds like I'm dry-heaving.
posted by SpiffyRob at 12:22 PM on September 24, 2008

Mayyyyyyyybe... if we're going to go down that road, it's more like "DUNGKH-DUNGKH"

Agreed.
posted by desuetude at 12:23 PM on September 24, 2008

Ga ghungh.
posted by dirtdirt at 12:27 PM on September 24, 2008

DOINK-DOINK, DUNKGH-DUNKGH..it's all a spinoff from dum-da-dum-dumdum-dumm..

I just want to say that I have never liked the Beatles. I mean, I respect the hell out of them, but, if I want to listen to music, I'm more likely to plug in the Sonics and just GARAGE ROCK THE FUCK OUT.

Some folks like water, some folks like wine, I like the taste of straight stychnine....

(the Fab 04 could garage rock with the best of them when the mood struck them, witness 'I saw Her Standing There' or their cover of Barret Strong's 'Money' which feature's Lennon's best vocal)
posted by jonmc at 12:28 PM on September 24, 2008

and if it weren't for millions of American males watching the Beatles being swarmed by girls, garage rock wouldn't exist. It's just that they all realized that the Yardbirds were easier to imitate.
posted by jonmc at 12:30 PM on September 24, 2008

EEEP!
posted by koeselitz at 12:34 PM on September 24, 2008

1. Did TBM do anything wrong?
2. EVEN IF HE DID, was your response appropriate?

1. Yes.
2. Yes.

Why?

1. Suggesting that it's okay for legitimate asylum seekers to be deported over broken legal processes, to a country known for disappearing undesirables, is not wrong in itself. However, complaining about getting called out for said opinion is wrong. Reposting private communication is definitely wrong.

2. This is a community site, where people are usually free to speak their minds. At least until they get subject to a grudge-filled callout, anyway.

As for passive-aggressive implications of "entitlement" and "responsibility", I'm left to wonder what your agenda really is when you phrase your questions in that manner. You seem to be for "improving discourse" while indirectly castigating me, which I have to admit is disappointing.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:34 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Extra points for posting a private MeMail exchange.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:39 PM on September 24, 2008

Is emo capitalized?

Oh, my heavens, no.
posted by amyms at 12:43 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Now I don't mind that BP disagrees with me, but I thought the "It speaks much about you" preface was a bit over the top.

I realize mefites come in all shapes and sizes, thin skinned, thick skinned, soapbox polemicists, contrarian misfits, rabble rousers, pedantic hairsplitters, procedural sticklers, fussy grammarians, ironic hipsters, coy raconteurs, witty fops, cosmopolitan polymaths, ivory tower hooligans, lovelorn sailors, frustrated librarians, Chomskyite anarcho-syndacalists, Libertarian skulkers, flea-ridden grifters, ornery populists, insufferable elitists, dimestore nihilists, recalcitrant decadents, would-be Beats, incurable Romantics, urine-soaked hobos, unrepentant malcontents, wooly Heideggerians, gin toting rakes, and all around drama queens, but I am a bit surprised to find the phrase "it speaks much about you" described as over the top. Gratuitous? Doubtless. Cutting? Surely. Justified? I have no opinion. But over the top? Compared to a lot of stuff on metafilter, the phrase seems positively polite.
posted by ornate insect at 12:44 PM on September 24, 2008 [20 favorites]

I realize mefites come in all shapes and sizes

Indeed. I, for instance, am a svelte dodecahedron.
posted by jonmc at 12:46 PM on September 24, 2008 [5 favorites]

Here.
posted by konolia at 12:50 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Speaking as one lumpy nonahedron with a beer gut to another, don't oversell it, man.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:51 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

I am not lumpy, my friend, I am smooth, in fact I am downright sleek.
posted by jonmc at 12:53 PM on September 24, 2008

My main agenda is to try to clarify something, because I don't believe it's possible to move forward (solving any problem) until things are clear. And they're not clear to me. There's a specific question I keep asking you. You're not answering it, probably because I'm not phrasing my question well. (Or maybe you are answering it, and I'm just not understanding your answer.) But I'm kind of at a loss as to how to make myself clearer. I'll try one last time.

For the sake of argument, I'll agree with you that TBM was in the wrong. My question is this:

GIVEN that he's wrong, why chastise him?

I feel like you're saying (though maybe I'm misunderstanding you) that you're chastising him BECAUSE he's wrong. It's as if you've decided that if people behave badly, they should be chastised. I'm asking why?

Why chastise bad behavior? What end does that serve? Do you think it makes the perpetrator behave better in the future? Do you think that's likely to happen with TBM? In other words, because you chastised him, do you think he'll now act better in the future? If that's what you think, what do you base this idea on?

Why did you chastise him? To me, "because he behaved badly" can't be a complete answer. That would be like if I asked "Why should we teach people Math?" and you answered "Because they need to learn it." Yes, but WHY do they need to learn it?

I'm not suggesting that people don't need to learn Math, and I'm not even suggesting that you were wrong to chastise TBM. I'm suggesting that it's pointless discussing this unless we understand your motives and reasoning.

My agenda is (a) understanding; (b) problem solving.

My bias is that I dislike rudeness, though I can possibly accept it if I feel like it accomplishes something useful. I feel like you were rude to TBM. Even if he was wrong or bad or rude first, I'm trying to understand why you think it's okay for you to be rude to him. I'm trying to understand the causal link. Your position (which I admit I may not understand) strikes me as similar to what kids often say when their mom's ask, "Why did you hit your brother?"

"He started it!"

I think such justifications -- though understandable -- are bad for Metafilter (and for society). I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I need to understand first.
posted by grumblebee at 12:53 PM on September 24, 2008 [4 favorites]

Being able to walk away from someone being churlish is a really necessary party of MeFi as hobby versus MeFi as lifestyle.

Wait! There's a MeFi lifestyle? Where do I sign up for that?
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 12:55 PM on September 24, 2008

I realize mefites come in all shapes and sizes

I myself resemble giant blocks of mottled tofu, and live in a cryogenic vat in a warehouse outside of Hoboken, New Jersey.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:55 PM on September 24, 2008

I am a bit surprised to find the phrase "it speaks much about you" described as over the top. Gratuitous? Doubtless. Cutting? Surely. Justified? I have no opinion. But over the top? Compared to a lot of stuff on metafilter, the phrase seems positively polite.

I'm surprised you're surprised. You seem to be saying that it's weird to complain a bruise on your arm when you have cancer. Yes, but the bruise still hurts.

If something is rude, it's rude.
posted by grumblebee at 12:56 PM on September 24, 2008

Wait! There's a MeFi lifestyle? Where do I sign up for that?

Just put on your bathrobe, crack open a Bud, boot up your screen, and let the magic happen.
posted by ornate insect at 12:58 PM on September 24, 2008

Just put on your bathrobe, crack open a Bud, boot up your screen, and let the magic happen.

There should be a "Metafilter:" in front of that.
posted by Dumsnill at 1:01 PM on September 24, 2008

"He started it!"

Reducing what I said to this kind of exchange is passive aggressive and false. You have repeatedly done this in your comments so far, and it is frustrating my attempts to have a conversation with you. I also dislike the double standard in how you are handling the OP's behavior in the original thread and especially here. Sorry, meaning no disrespect, but I am not going to continue this discussion with you.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:10 PM on September 24, 2008

MetaFilter: There should be a "Metafilter:" in front of that.
posted by not_on_display at 1:12 PM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

Can TBM and BCPO not just settle this with breakdancing? I brought Planet Rock.
posted by everichon at 1:16 PM on September 24, 2008

Come on, guys, there's robot voices!
posted by everichon at 1:17 PM on September 24, 2008

If something is rude, it's rude.

If tbm was bruised, he or she is welcome to complain, but I'm not sure airing that grievance in public this way is the best route--or that it requires a separate thread.

This being metafilter all molehills tend to look like mountains; the collective psyche of the hive mind is always abuzz with some grievance or another, some misunderstanding or heated exchange.

If tbm wanted to kick-start on this thread a more general discussion about etiquette and politeness/rudeness, it might have helped to refer to the incident without getting into specifics.

Any chance that this was going to be a useful discussion about etiquette was impaired by the very specific detail of the exchange that tbm goes into, and any chance that tbm was going to find closure to the exchange itself was negated by the fact that b.p. quite naturally and understandably feels like he's being put on trial without warning.
posted by ornate insect at 1:17 PM on September 24, 2008

I'm left to wonder what your agenda really is when you phrase your questions in that manner. You seem to be for "improving discourse" while indirectly castigating me, which I have to admit is disappointing.

You're kind of doing that thing again, that "it speaks much about you" kind of backhanded insult thing.

Reducing what I said to this kind of exchange is passive aggressive and false.

You toss around that "passive agressive" phrase a lot, doncha?

Actually he just asked you a question. I don't think it was rhetorical - I think he really wants to know if you feel entitled to say certain things. There's nothing passive-aggressive about asking a question if you sincerely want an answer.

Feeling entitled is not necessarily a bad thing, by the way. Just depends on what you feel entitled to.

Grumblebee just doesn't understand the purpose of insults. He really doesn't - I think if you look back at his posts you'll be hard pressed to find a time when he's been rude or insulting. I don't think he's trying to provoke you. He really wants to understand if you find insults useful, and if so, why.

I'm not trying to sound self-righteous here. I sometimes insult people when I'm angry, but if I'm being honest with myself, I have to admit that I'm doing it to make myself feel better or to save face. If you're looking to prove a point or win an argument, it's not a great tactic.
posted by Evangeline at 1:17 PM on September 24, 2008

He really wants to understand if you find insults useful, and if so, why.

grumblebee: yes, he does. because it gets people to take their gloves off and say what they're really thinking or at least get them to embarass themselves with an angry utterance.
posted by jonmc at 1:20 PM on September 24, 2008

Good morning, Worm your honor.
The crown will plainly show
The poster who now stands before you
Was caught red-handed showing feelings
Showing feelings of a callous and judgmental nature;
This will not do.
Call the Blazecock!

I always said he'd come to no good
In the end your honor.
If the mods let me have my way I could
flay him into shape.
But my hands were tied,
The bleeding hearts and artists
Let him get away with murder.
Let me banhammer him today?
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:24 PM on September 24, 2008

yes, he does. because it gets people to take their gloves off and say what they're really thinking or at least get them to embarass themselves with an angry utterance.

I disagree. Maybe it gets the person to say what they're really thinking about the person they're arguing with, but I don't think it gets them to say what they're really thinking about the subject. So then we just have two people calling each other stupid, and often the subject itself is lost in the fray.
posted by Evangeline at 1:25 PM on September 24, 2008

I'm this* close to just going back through all Metatalk history and creating a Restatement of Good Policy from all of the "commonlaw" handed down in this type of thread. It could also act as a nice primer of MeFi history. Like this:

Use of MeMail Quotes in Public Threads
Quoting from a private MeMail message in a thread on any of the sites, including MetaTalk, is expressly forbidden. Summarizing an exchange has been indicated to be permissable, at least if the exchange was with a mod. This serves to protect the privacy of messages which can reasonably be assumed to remain private by the sender.

See: Just The Facts, Ma'am, in which Fandango_Matt posted private correspondence from Steven C. Den Best, forcing deletion of the posted material and a one-day suspension of Fandango_Matt. jessamyn states that the practice is "100% Not Okay."

See also: Jesus Christ, this is stupid., in which plexi had a recently deleted thread. grumblebee had written out a long, thoughtful comment about the thread, which was deleted before grumblebee had a chance to post, and so grumblebee sent the comment to plexi as a MeMail. plexi then posted the "comment" in the Metatalk thread which led to the original thread's deletion. The comment was deleted, with jessamyn outlining the policy of MeMail quotes as "delete-first-ask-questions-later."

See also: Take it to Metatalk if you don't like it., in which three blind mice posted several snippets of MeMail conversation between himself and Blazecock Pileon. While the quotes were not deleted, three blind mice was nonetheless admonished for his actions, and the codified codified the policy as "explicit," and as punishable by timeouts in some circumstances.


*fingers one millimeter apart, kind of like this )(.
posted by Navelgazer at 1:27 PM on September 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

I'm not always right, but I've never been wrong.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:30 PM on September 24, 2008

I realize mefites come in all shapes and sizes

Indeed. I, for instance, am a svelte dodecahedron.

Hmmm... pentagonal or rhombic, I wonder?

Ah. Must be rhombic, since they are capable of filling all space with no intervening gaps.

(No offense meant; I've enjoyed your contributions to this thread immensely!)
posted by jamjam at 1:35 PM on September 24, 2008

metafilter: capable of filling all space with no intervening gaps
posted by ornate insect at 1:38 PM on September 24, 2008

it gets people to take their gloves off and say what they're really thinking or at least get them to embarass themselves with an angry utterance.

I disagree. In my experience, when you insult someone, he's more likely to say stuff to save face (e.g. he becomes defensive) than to say what he's thinking. And I'm not sure I buy that people generally feel embarrassed when they make angry utterances.

I'm not saying this stuff never happens. Sure, sometimes someone gets mad and reveals his true colors; sometimes people feel shame after throwing tantrums. But I can't imagine counting on such reactions. I think it's far more likely that people will just get defensive or clam up.

Like Evangeline, I'm no Saint. I sometimes yell at people when they piss me off. But I never think my yelling is likely to change their behavior (in a positive way). I yell because I'm frustrated or because I just feel like yelling. If I'm honest about that, it allows other people to make reasonable decisions. "Oh, Grumblebee is the sort of guy you yells when he gets angry. I don't want to be around people like that. I don't think he's right for this community." Or "Hey, he's only human. We forgive him..."

I don't mean to make this all about BP. My issue isn't that BP did anything wrong (necessarily). My issue is that several things were going on and they were all getting mixed up. Whether or not TMB was right or wrong is a separate issue from whether or not BP's response was right or wrong.
posted by grumblebee at 1:57 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'd like to thank ornate insect for the much needed taxonomic research. Please help over here.

BCP, I wasn't saying there wasn't any egregious stuff in your posting history. It's just I don't normally roll like that, and sifting through it made me feel dirty after the first page or two. So this:

"Second, you didn't read the article, you said something stupid, and you got called out for it. Getting called out happens here. It's happened to me when I've said stupid things. Either you own up to your comments, or you move on, or both, but you will not be getting an apology from me, because frankly you don't deserve one."
posted by Meatbomb at 2:05 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

I disagree. In my experience, when you insult someone, he's more likely to say stuff to save face (e.g. he becomes defensive) than to say what he's thinking.

Which means he'll say something personal and nasty which will seem embarassing later. Which is something I try to keep in mind when someone insults me, that they're trying to get me to do that. or they've simply run out of intelligent retorts. or both. (and online stuff isn't like the real world, where people have to worry that saying the wrong thing will result in an ass-kicking or worse. Last night on the way home from the Mets game on the 7 train I saw an illustration of this. A very drunk beared white guy was in some kind of argument with a very drunk Latin guy. It seemed playful until the Latin guy said 'Shut the fuck up or I'll kick your Amish ass! (which I have to admit was pretty funny)' The Latin guy got off at 46th Street, and the white guy got all glib about how he 'feel sorry for people who have to act tough,' but I couldn't help thinking that glib attitude might get him into trouble if he used it on the wrong person at the wrong time.) But in the online world, just like everywhere else, people feel the need to save face. It's gotten me in trouble a time or two. yes, it's a weakness of those involved. But it won't go away until the peanut gallery shuts its face too.
posted by jonmc at 2:06 PM on September 24, 2008

three blind mice: Actually, in my time zone I missed it. I miss the meat of most threads. Brandon Blatcher was kind enough to send me a backchannel mail - first to ask me what I meant - and in the conversation he pointed me to the Metatalk flogging.

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to second The Right Honourable bonaldi's motion of "bollocks".

As for this matter, your original goal was accomplished the moment that receipt of your second message ("You don't have to admit you were wrong [to use an 'ad hominem framing']. Just - please - do try to follow the guidelines.") was acknowledged by a response. No further communication was necessary in conveying that request, nor would it be effective given the general "Dude, I really don't want to talk to you" tone of the replies.

Your other messages, and this post, all sound very "You must admit that you're wrong, or be found wrong by a jury of your peers!".
posted by CKmtl at 2:10 PM on September 24, 2008

If something is rude, it's rude.

grumblebee, I like you, but you sound like you think you're at a tea party. Have you not noticed there's a lot of rudeness at MetaFilter? You may not like it, but it's not going away, and pressing someone repeatedly to admit they were rude and demanding they account for it could be construed as, well, rude. And I don't really see what dog you have in this fight.
posted by languagehat at 2:11 PM on September 24, 2008

It's just I don't normally roll like that, and sifting through it made me feel dirty after the first page or two.

So why do it, Meatbomb? You knew better but you did it anyway. There's been a few times when you took a random prod at me without any provocation on my part. Maybe I should dig that up to score some lazy, unthinking points, to be just like you.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:13 PM on September 24, 2008

There's been a few times when you took a random prod at me without any provocation on my part.

You don't need to attack me personally to provoke a reaction. The provocation, my good Mr. Pileon, is that your attacks on any and all people make me have a less groovy experience here. It harshes my mellow, and surely you are aware that we've all taken a solemn vow not to harsh my mellow while participating on MetaFilter. Apparently grumblebee and others also feel this way. But I do love you unconditionally and wish you all the best, even when you are stomping and waving your spear.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:25 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

The provocation, my good Mr. Pileon, is that your attacks on any and all people make me have a less groovy experience here.

Likewise.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:28 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Does that mean you also love me unconditionally, brother?
posted by Meatbomb at 2:29 PM on September 24, 2008

Everybody needs some unconditional love.
posted by Dumsnill at 2:33 PM on September 24, 2008

*hopes the harsh is now mellowed*
posted by Cranberry at 2:37 PM on September 24, 2008

EVERYONE
NEEDS
A MARTINI.
posted by turgid dahlia at 2:40 PM on September 24, 2008

Does that mean you also love me unconditionally, brother?

Despite your cheap shots I still think the world of you.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:45 PM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

I love you all, each one of you, you small minded idiotic shits.
posted by Elmore at 2:56 PM on September 24, 2008 [4 favorites]

and if it weren't for millions of American males watching the Beatles being swarmed by girls, garage rock wouldn't exist. It's just that they all realized that the Yardbirds were easier to imitate.

Umm, not really. If you do your research, I think you'll find that Beatlemania did as much to kill the cool regional scenes that gave birth to the early garage sound as it did to encourage them. Yes, those lovable moptops did inspire any number of teenagers to get busy in the garage ... but at the same time their massive success centralized the music biz in North America like never before, which suffocated a lot of cool regional stuff.
posted by philip-random at 2:58 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

People who post Metatalk call-outs should have to listen to a loop of Sarah Palin's stump speech playing when they are logged in.
posted by milkrate at 3:06 PM on September 24, 2008

The provocation, my good Mr. Pileon, is that your attacks on any and all people make me have a less groovy experience here.

<JANICE>Oh, wow.</JANICE>
posted by scrump at 3:06 PM on September 24, 2008

I think you'll find that Beatlemania did as much to kill the cool regional scenes that gave birth to the early garage sound as it did to encourage them. Yes, those lovable moptops did inspire any number of teenagers to get busy in the garage ... but at the same time their massive success centralized the music biz in North America like never before, which suffocated a lot of cool regional stuff.

I've listened to as much garage rock as just about anybody I know and I hear more recycled Beatles and Stones in it than anything else. and anybody with a logical mind can see that the response the British bands got from girls was one of the primary motivations for forming bands.
posted by jonmc at 3:13 PM on September 24, 2008

If you are eating popcorn while reading this thread, please be careful.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 3:20 PM on September 24, 2008

I'm this* close to just going back through all Metatalk history and creating a Restatement of Good Policy from all of the "commonlaw" handed down in this type of thread.

That is a fucking good idea.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:22 PM on September 24, 2008

Blaze has a callout and I WASN'T INVITED?

No. Fucking. Way.

Blaze, you and I have throwdowns all the time. What's the matter? You don't like me anymore?

Seriously, man. I've buried whatever hatchet existed in my own feeble mind re: our throwdowns, renewed my vows to be a good MeFi citizen and have significantly lowered the heat on my rhetoric (at least, I hope I have). You should do the same with me and several other people.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:30 PM on September 24, 2008

Thank You for the Harshed Mellow

Blackened, burning marshmallow.
Crotch kick from a large fellow.
Pustule that discharged jell-o.
Painting El DeBarge yellow.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:35 PM on September 24, 2008

Despite your cheap shots I still think the world of you.

Cheap shots? Excellent. I shall start with whiskey.

Everyone needs cheap shots.
posted by never used baby shoes at 3:36 PM on September 24, 2008

Paul is dead...
posted by NikitaNikita at 3:54 PM on September 24, 2008

oops. My hand at fancy reverse text didn't work.

*pout*
posted by NikitaNikita at 3:54 PM on September 24, 2008

"grumblebee, I like you, but you sound like you think you're at a tea party. Have you not noticed there's a lot of rudeness at MetaFilter? You may not like it, but it's not going away, and pressing someone repeatedly to admit they were rude and demanding they account for it could be construed as, well, rude. And I don't really see what dog you have in this fight."

Sometimes, MeFi is like a Salon, sometimes like a boisterous bar, and sometimes like a crowded subway car full of teenagers, Mormons, and that guy that's hogging two fucking seats while swearing into his cell phone.
posted by klangklangston at 4:11 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Sometimes, MeFi is like a box of chocolates laxatives.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:19 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

People. Beatles lyrics are NOT one-size-fits-all threads.

You're wrong about that.

What? You disagree? Huh. So take it to MetaTalk, Chuck-o. And that's the last I will hear from you, because you're going to be ignored
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:21 PM on September 24, 2008

sometimes like a crowded subway car full of teenagers, Mormons, and that guy that's hogging two fucking seats while swearing into his cell phone.

*elbows klang*

hands off the fuckin' pole, dude.
posted by jonmc at 4:24 PM on September 24, 2008

It harshes my mellow, and surely you are aware that we've all taken a solemn vow not to harsh my mellow while participating on MetaFilter.

I swear on this longboat to do my utmost not to harsh ANY mellows in this here MetaFilter. In the event of a harshed mellow, I swear to take it to MetaTalk where I will be judged by a jury of my peers, all of whom are making the DOINK-DOINK noise while simultaneously arguing about how to render that noise into text, taking up two fucking seats on the subway, and eating boxes of laxatives.

I also solemnly swear that in the event of a call-out, I will wear a raincoat as protection against the subway-seats-laxatives combo platter.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:48 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Splatter.
posted by CKmtl at 4:53 PM on September 24, 2008

grapefruitmoon, I'm sorry but you failed to work a Beatles lyric into that comment. Please step into the execution chamber. We'll notify your next-of-kin.
posted by jonmc at 4:59 PM on September 24, 2008

It's a fair cop, jonmc. You know my name, look up the number.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 5:01 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think tbm owes bp an apology for being such a drama queen.
posted by mullingitover at 5:04 PM on September 24, 2008

Sometimes, MeFi is like a Salon, sometimes like a boisterous bar, and sometimes like a crowded subway car full of teenagers, Mormons, and that guy that's hogging two fucking seats while swearing into his cell phone.

"So anyway, fuck that cocksucking piece of shit, him and his... What?... No, not you, some douchebag is trying to get my attention, man I hate the fuckin' subway... What? You lookin' at me? What is it? I'm a busy man... Two seats? So fuckin' what? I need leg room. You don't look like a pregnant woman to me, get lost... Hello? You still there? Yeah, some cocksucker doesn't like the way I sit on the subway. Fuckin' loser. Now, what was I saying?"
posted by languagehat at 5:07 PM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

Have a laxative chocolate.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:11 PM on September 24, 2008

I'm sick and tired of hearing things from uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocritics.
posted by Killick at 5:14 PM on September 24, 2008

I'm sick and tired of hearing things from uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocritics.

Yeah - enough with the Beatles lyrics, aready!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:29 PM on September 24, 2008

>I'm this* close to just going back through all Metatalk history and creating a Restatement of Good Policy from all of the "commonlaw" handed down in this type of thread.

>>That is a fucking good idea.

No, no it's really not. As has been said in discussion after discussion over the Metatalk years, requiring rules in order to enforce good behaviour is something that children do. Intelligent adults acting in good faith should be able to navigate quite ably without a Rule Book, and understand that very little in the sphere of human relations is ever black and white.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:30 PM on September 24, 2008 [8 favorites]

Intelligent adults acting in good faith

There's your problem...
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:31 PM on September 24, 2008

I'd like to politely ask the anonymous individual who put my email address on an email harvester site again to please stop doing this. This is getting beyond funny and into harassment. If you have something to say, just say it here. Thank you.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:56 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hey, what happened to three blind mice? Is he in the bathroom?
posted by jtron at 6:00 PM on September 24, 2008

MetaFilter: There's your problem.
posted by Sailormom at 6:03 PM on September 24, 2008

Ooo, email harvester. What a good idea!

All I did was donate $100 to the McCain-Palin campaign in your name.

S'OK, I gave $100 to Obama-Biden in konolia's name, so it evens out.

I kid, I kid.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:04 PM on September 24, 2008

An old friend of mine used to sign me up for the marines. It was pretty funny until I lost a leg in the battle of Jun KMail.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 6:15 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

>I'm this* close to just going back through all Metatalk history and creating a Restatement of Good Policy from all of the "commonlaw" handed down in this type of thread.

>>That is a fucking good idea.

>>>No, no it's really not. As has been said in discussion after discussion over the Metatalk years, requiring rules in order to enforce good behaviour is something that children do. Intelligent adults acting in good faith should be able to navigate quite ably without a Rule Book, and understand that very little in the sphere of human relations is ever black and white.

Yeah, one of the reasons I haven't really attempted this is that everything really boils down to "don't be an asshole." Still, certain subjects such as MeMail, proper uses of MetaTalk and AskMe, sockpuppetry, and so on could have some interesting nuances to them. The only real value my (non)project would have would be for entertainment purposes, or else to have something to point to when someone is flaming out, "See, though, the standard has been attacks on a mefites religion are considered de facto ad hominum attacks unless the subject is COS or Westboro Baptist or the like..."

Also, it's probably a good idea for me to keep pretending that I don't have the time or energy for such an undertaking.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:19 PM on September 24, 2008

Hey, what happened to three blind mice? Is he in the bathroom?

Timezone issues.
posted by puke & cry at 7:31 PM on September 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

Alex is a great guy, he gave me my Metafilter subscription for Christmas one year which was really cool because I had been lurking forever but was too lazy and cheap to join. I've always read his posts as more deadpan than vitriolic because that's more his personality. I wish you guys could all meet him in person because he's totally not even a little bit of a dick, quite to the contrary, he's crazy smart and interesting and totally down to earth.
posted by The Straightener at 7:33 PM on September 24, 2008

ok, i added a mini-essay to the original thread, as i said i might do.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:25 PM on September 24, 2008

well if im the judge of this thread, 3bm has been talking a load of utter shite and i can only presume he's trolling further by taking this to metatalk.
posted by sgt.serenity at 8:56 PM on September 24, 2008

eople, people. The noise is clearly "DUNG-DUNG".

Mayyyyyyyybe... if we're going to go down that road, it's more like "DUNGKH-DUNGKH"

We're closing in. A cleverly-placed Z?

DZUNGKH-DZUNGH!
posted by middleclasstool at 9:13 PM on September 24, 2008

grumblebee, I like you, but you sound like you think you're at a tea party. Have you not noticed there's a lot of rudeness at MetaFilter? You may not like it, but it's not going away,

There are people -- and I'm not saying you're one of them, languagehat -- who seem to feel that they have their fingers on the pulse of Metafilter, that they know exactly what sort of community it is and what its members are like.

Hell, I suppose most of us generalize in that way. As a New Yorker, I sometimes tell people from out of town what New Yorkers are like. But, of course, I'm wrong. Or rather, I may be accurately explaining what a certain noticeable percentage of New Yorkers are like. But when I say New Yorkers, am I remembering to include people who live in China Town? The Hasidic Jewish community? The people who live on Roosevelt Island? To a large extent I decide what I want New Yorkers to be like, and then (via confirmation bias) they become like that to me.

Metafilter has many members, some rude, some not. Some like the rudeness; some hate it. Naturally, the rude people sometimes seem like they ARE Metafilter. That's because rudeness is louder than politeness. But take a look at Konolia's comment upthread and the eight favorites it garnered. I know that whenever I write one of my "tea party" comments, I get several MeMails from members who essentially say, "Thanks for saying that. I wanted to say the same thing, but I knew no one would listen to me." So if for no other reason than to make such people feel like they're not alone, I'm glad I made my comments.

But I do think you may have a point when you say, "You may not like it, but it's not going away." And here I find myself in a familiar bind, which is that I care about this community. I've been part of it for -- what? -- nine years? I think the rudeness is detrimental to it. I know you disagree, but if you were me, what would you do? Keep quiet? Leave? Believe me, I don't talk about this stuff nearly as much as I think about it.

I'm a pessimist about my ability to make changes. Mostly, in offline life and here, I think nothing I say will make any difference. So I waffle between keeping my head in the sand and blurting stuff out. (An offline example is the environment. My basic feeling is that we're doomed. So is there really any point it even trying to save the planet?) If there's any point in speaking up, it's either because I have some glimmer of hope that I'm wrong -- that change is possible -- or because, change or no change, I value conversations in which all views are aired. I know I learn from hearing other people's views, even if I disagree with them.

and pressing someone repeatedly to admit they were rude and demanding they account for it could be construed as, well, rude. And I don't really see what dog you have in this fight.

That wasn't my intent. I'm sorry if I bungled things and came across that way. I sometimes don't express myself well. I'm very sorry I came across as rude.

My aim wasn't to badger BP or anyone. My aim was to understand his motivation (so that we could make some sense of this conversation beyond just mindless blame-placing and name-calling). I think it's important to know why he made a personal comment about TBM -- whether it was because he sincerely believes that making negative comments about people is likely to bring about positive change, or whether he was just venting or enjoying "a good fight."

The general answer I hear is that he made his comment about TBM because TBM behaved badly. But that doesn't make sense (though I'll admit that we often talk this way casually). I don't give someone a medal because they're brave. That's just a shorthand way of talking. I give someone a medal because they're brave AND because I think handing out medals makes a certain useful statement AND because I want brave people to know I'm proud of them... In other words, no matter how brave you are, your bravery does not CAUSE me to give you a medal. I give you a medal because of beliefs and feelings within me.

Regardless of BP's reasons, I don't blame him or think he's wrong, though if he does think that chastising is generally a useful tool for change, I disagree. But I'm repeating myself, and I don't seem to be able to say what I want to say clearly enough for people to understand. So I'll stop.
posted by grumblebee at 9:15 PM on September 24, 2008 [6 favorites]

I think tbm owes bp an apology for being such a drama queen.

That's kind of not cool at all. When people disappear and come back under new usernames, it's a Brand New Day.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:41 PM on September 24, 2008

oh and it's "thunk-thunk"
posted by puke & cry at 9:47 PM on September 24, 2008

YouTube can help with at least one part of this thread. The Doink Doink.
posted by cgc373 at 9:59 PM on September 24, 2008

I've always kind of wondered if the addresses on the BADONKADONK title cards are real. I highly doubt it (gull-durned legal reasons), but I can see them maybe throwing in some real addresses for the more famousy kinds of places or some product tie-in or whatever. Like, maybe a place gets free advertising when it's the scene of a pretend murder?

"Smiling Happy Time Day Care: As featured on Law & Order: SVU"
posted by Sys Rq at 10:40 PM on September 24, 2008

The "Law and Order" noise is officially "Doink doink."

Not everyone may like that, or agree that it is the best onomatopoeic representation of the noise, but the people who write about the television appear to have standardized the noise as "Doink doink" and there's nothing anyone can do about it now.

"Cock-a-doodle-doo" doesn't sound much like a rooster, either, but we are all prisoners of orthography.

As for the rest of the thread, I believe George Harrison said it best:

Please don't be long please don't you be very long
Please don't be long or I may be asleep.
Please don't be long please don't you be very long
Please don't be long
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:52 PM on September 24, 2008

I've always kind of wondered if the addresses on the BADONKADONK title cards are real.

Badonkadonk?

Man, that's junk in the trunk!

(I apologize that youtube couldn't provide me with a video of "I know Black People," but I'll add-

"Is pimping easy?"

"No"

"Correct!"

"No"

"Correct!"

"Hell, yeah"

"Strangely enough, that is also correct."
posted by Navelgazer at 11:23 PM on September 24, 2008

Yes. I understand that. Thanks anyway.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:30 PM on September 24, 2008

Why is this thread still open? Can I do one about whether or not ParisParamus should be allowed back?
posted by bardic at 3:05 AM on September 25, 2008

jessamyn: "... MeFi as hobby versus MeFi as lifestyle."

What's a hobby?
posted by dg at 4:12 AM on September 25, 2008

$20SAIT. </obligatory>
posted by cgc373 at 4:55 AM on September 25, 2008

Yay, it's still open. Now I can say my bit and call you both idiots. hoo-rah.
posted by sunshinesky at 5:01 AM on September 25, 2008

Can I do one about whether or not ParisParamus should be allowed back?

Not if you value your internal organs, no.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 6:06 AM on September 25, 2008

Why is this thread still open? Can I do one about whether or not ParisParamus should be allowed back?

We were going to close it if it got ugly, which it didn't.

ParisParamus came back with predictable results. He is no longer back.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:29 AM on September 25, 2008

Well if the thread's not being closed, can I break out my wedding photos?
posted by Jofus at 7:17 AM on September 25, 2008

I have no choice but to make this thread ugly! Here's a picture of me.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 7:29 AM on September 25, 2008

Metafilter has many members, some rude, some not. Some like the rudeness; some hate it. Naturally, the rude people sometimes seem like they ARE Metafilter.

Right, but I wasn't saying the rude people ARE Metafilter. I was saying they're not going away.

But I do think you may have a point when you say, "You may not like it, but it's not going away." And here I find myself in a familiar bind, which is that I care about this community. I've been part of it for -- what? -- nine years? I think the rudeness is detrimental to it. I know you disagree

Who says I disagree? I don't even know if there's a sensible answer to the question "Is rudeness detrimental to MetaFilter?" It's like asking "Is the sex drive detrimental to humanity?" Regardless of what answer you come up with, to go out on a corner and start telling people the sex drive is detrimental to humanity is to condemn yourself to mockery. Rudeness is part of MetaFilter as it is part of almost all online groups (and to a much lesser extent than many), and while I frequently am put off by it, I am also put off by my picture of what MetaFilter might be like if rudeness were ruthlessly excised. Rudeness, like the sex drive, is part of human nature, and we have to deal with it as best we can. Those who can't deal with it should probably not hang out here. This is not a contemptuous "There's the door, sissy!"—I have complete respect for people who can't abide rudeness. It's a plain statement of fact. If you hate noise, don't hang out in a factory. (This is not directed at you, grumblebee, but at the hypothetical rudeness-loather whose state of mind you might say you're defending. Obviously you can deal with it or you wouldn't still be around.)

And quite frankly, to single out BP for rudeness and grill him about it, as though he personally is responsible for the civility of the site, is unfair. It's like going up to one particular guy in a smoking lounge and asking him why he smokes.
posted by languagehat at 7:59 AM on September 25, 2008

This thread has made me ashamed that I paid $5 to be here.
posted by nineRED at 8:24 AM on September 25, 2008

This thread has made me ashamed that I paid $5 to be here.

Leave Jofus' suspenders out of this!

Just kidding, congrats to you two cute crazy kids!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:31 AM on September 25, 2008

This thread has made me ashamed that I paid $5 to be here.

Just wait until it's your turn to sit in the barrel.
posted by electroboy at 8:35 AM on September 25, 2008

You can never go wrong if you just remember the greatest commandment.
posted by adamdschneider at 8:43 AM on September 25, 2008 [1 favorite]

This thread has made me ashamed that I paid $5 to be here.

Imagine how us freeloaders feel!
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:47 AM on September 25, 2008 [2 favorites]

The general answer I hear is that he made his comment about TBM because TBM behaved badly.

Okay, one last try: I gave you an answer and you didn't and don't want to hear it. And I'd like to remind everyone that you appear to have had an agenda in coming here, directing your comments at me phrased as they were with some pretty bizarre insinuations.

And although you got what you wanted, you're still coming after me as if my comment was the basest, vilest thing ever said on the site, and that I am regularly and often rude — neither of which is the case, at all.

For that matter, your attempt to shame me into taking some kind of responsibility for the site's overall demeanor, whatever it is about its character that you don't personally like, is manipulative. I suspect that I contribute a hell of a lot more that makes this place fun and interesting than 95% of the people here. I get your personal opinion about me, loud and clear, but your repeated badgering is not welcome, thanks.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:01 AM on September 25, 2008

Please.

This thread = Sarah Palin's mouth

Both belong closed.
posted by nineRED at 9:03 AM on September 25, 2008

Rudeness, like the sex drive, is part of human nature, and we have to deal with it as best we can.

I think there's a difference. You can't stop the sex drive. You can pass dumb laws against certain acts, but the drive is so strong that people will just break the laws.

But MeFi is a moderated community. The mods could crack down harder on rudeness. They could make it unacceptable. I've spent time in plenty of groups in which this is the case. Groups in which whoever is running them won't tolerate "you're an asshole" and the like.

I doubt Matt and company will ever do this, but they COULD do it. And they have much more power over what's goes on here than -- say -- the US government has over sex drives. The government can't delete sex acts.

(In fact, the mods already control rudeness. They remove extremely rude comments and personal attacks quite often. So it's a matter of degree. I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel like the mods are too free and easy with these deletions. I'm just coming from the opposite extreme.)

And quite frankly, to single out BP for rudeness and grill him about it, as though he personally is responsible for the civility of the site, is unfair. It's like going up to one particular guy in a smoking lounge and asking him why he smokes.

This was not my intention, and I'm sincerely sorry if my words had that effect.

I thought that this thread was about a particular interaction between two members. To me, it seemed like the thrust of the conversation was whether or not TBM was right or wrong. My point was that there are more angles to the issue -- for instance that BP chose to act in a certain way, and that -- perhaps -- he could have made another choice REGARDLESS of whether TBM was right or wrong.

I think the interesting question is SHOULD he have made a different choice. In other words, if person A is being an asshole, is it reasonable for person B to be an asshole back?

You seem to be saying, "That's a boring question, because reasonable or not, B IS going to be an asshole back -- as if it's writ-in-stone human nature." You may be right. But I think it's worth discussing.

In any case, I certainly don't think BP is responsible for the tone of this site. I think that responsibility lies with the mods. If the mods think rudeness has its place here and are permanently unwilling to listen to arguments to the contrary (I'm not saying that they are, I'm saying IF) then that's that.

And I'm sorry that I characterized you as being "pro rudeness." I should know better than to put words in someone else's mouth. Consider my hand slapped several times and please accept my apology.
posted by grumblebee at 9:06 AM on September 25, 2008

We were going to close it if it got ugly

It put lipstick on!


I haven't read most of the comments and that sounds like a good thing, but for what it's worth it sounds like TBM see's things different than most and sometimes that causes conflicts thorough misunderstandings.

Generally, I've found that approaching people with the idea that they're trying to do right or be civil defuses or avoids this. It's not sexy no, but it's more peaceful
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:15 AM on September 25, 2008 [2 favorites]

And I'd like to remind everyone that you appear to have had an agenda in coming here, directing your comments at me phrased as they were with some pretty bizarre insinuations.

I think people can make up their own minds about that without your prodding.
posted by Evangeline at 9:31 AM on September 25, 2008

I get your personal opinion about me, loud and clear, but your repeated badgering is not welcome, thanks.

I'd like to extend a public and heartfelt apology to Blazecock Pileon. BP, I am sorry that I badgered you and that I made insinuations about your intentions.

I didn't intend to do either of those things, but my intent matters less than how my actions come across to you.

For the record, I have no idea what your intentions are/were. (And I never thought I did -- regardless of what I wrote.) You are the only person privy to that info. For me to assume otherwise is presumptuous and illogical. I honestly thought I was asking you questions about your intentions -- not making assumptions or insinuations. That was what I wanted to do; that was what I tried to do. Clearly, I failed. But my only purpose was to FIND OUT your intentions -- not to suggest what they were.

I don't think you answered my question (maybe you did, and I'm just too dense to get it), but I respect that you feel you did. I hope you can respect that I still don't feel like you did. I think we're having some sort of confusion. I don't think it's a matter of me refusing to listen to you or you refusing to answer my question. From your point of view (as I understand it) I keep asking the same thing and not listening to your answer. From my point of view, I keep asking the same thing and you don't answer that specific question. So either I'm wording my question badly (probably), you're misunderstanding me or both.

Alas, I don't know how to move us past this impasse, so I'm willing to drop it. But if you want to try to work past it, I'm willing to do that, too.

Again, my sincere apologies.
posted by grumblebee at 9:36 AM on September 25, 2008

Alas, I don't know how to move us past this impasse, so I'm willing to drop it.

Thanks, that sounds agreeable. Apologies accepted.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:45 AM on September 25, 2008

""So anyway, fuck that cocksucking piece of shit, him and his... What?... No, not you, some douchebag is trying to get my attention, man I hate the fuckin' subway... What? You lookin' at me? What is it? I'm a busy man... Two seats? So fuckin' what? I need leg room. You don't look like a pregnant woman to me, get lost... Hello? You still there? Yeah, some cocksucker doesn't like the way I sit on the subway. Fuckin' loser. Now, what was I saying?""

To which, the proper response is to just sit down and shove him over (though my girlfriend prefers just staring daggers while she stands, because she's less likely to want to get into a confrontation).

"I suspect that I contribute a hell of a lot more that makes this place fun and interesting than 95% of the people here. I get your personal opinion about me, loud and clear, but your repeated badgering is not welcome, thanks."

Dude, I like you plenty, but you're taking this way too seriously. I mean, I got the point of Grumblebee's questioning, which wasn't to shame you or piss you off—it was truly wondering about something he doesn't understand.

Now, being someone who is prone to spates of rudeness myself, I'm gonna give my subjective objective here: There are a couple of different reasons why rudeness comes out. It can be meant as a quick jerk of the reins, in order not to encourage future good behavior (as you posited), but merely to halt bad behavior. It can be meant to encourage future good behavior (though the efficacy of that is dubious). It can be meant to silence a rhetorical opponent. It can be meant to inflict emotional damage. It can also just be the voicing of frustrations, without an external goal—the purpose there is simply to make the person expressing the rudeness feel better. Articulating rude feelings is part of that creative impulse that runs through much of life. Just as your "tea party" comments elicit sympathy from those who agree, a particularly vicious burn can gain allies and solidify position.

The question of why must someone be rude comes with the assumption that being polite is better, but politeness is just as learned and artificial, if not more so, than rudeness. Being rude and insulting often takes less energy than being polite and being kind, especially in abstracted and ambiguous communication (text). For example, being blunt is often seen as rude, as is stark disagreement (rather than including the caveats necessary to avoid offense), and frankly, some opinions or positions are stupid and not worth the time required to rebut them in full. Hell, that's half the art of trolling—inducing your opponent to waste their time countering every minuscule objection that you raise, no matter how harebrained. Sure, it doesn't lead to greater understanding or the betterment of mankind to simply dismiss Creationists as morons, but it saves a lot of finite time (especially if appeals to authority are ruled out).

It can also, as per the subway example above, be a way of asserting an immutable position—my shoving legs over and sitting in a seat otherwise taken up by one dude is inarguably a rude response to rude behavior, but that person's only response is either to suck it up or escalate further. If I'm willing to risk that further escalation (on the basis that most times, folks will just glower instead), it's an effective strategy for fulfilling my desire to sit down—the person shoved's feelings are completely irrelevant to my decision.
posted by klangklangston at 10:08 AM on September 25, 2008 [2 favorites]

Politeness takes too many words to express - and it's boring to read. I vote nay.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:08 AM on September 25, 2008 [1 favorite]

In any case, I certainly don't think BP is responsible for the tone of this site. I think that responsibility lies with the mods. If the mods think rudeness has its place here and are permanently unwilling to listen to arguments to the contrary (I'm not saying that they are, I'm saying IF) then that's that.

It's more that rudeness has a place in the natural flow of conversation, and that one of the things that has been very, very clear from the mefi community for a long time is that letting the conversation just be what it will be as much as possible is a virtue of this place. Even if that means the conversation is sometimes hot, or rude, or bitchy, or what have you.

And that's a principle that I more or less agree with. There is stuff that crosses the line for one of a number of reasons, and we delete that stuff when it seems to be doing more damage to the conversation here than a direct administrative intervention in the flow of same, but mere rudeness by itself shouldn't be where that line is drawn. This is not a tea party.

We'd rather people weren't rude as often as they are, definitely. But I'd rather people weren't a lot of things that, realistically, are going to be part of the natural mix in a great big heterogeneous community of ordinary human beings like this one. To a degree, part of what makes this place work is that people are within reasonable limits allowed to fly their jerk flags, and other people are allowed to notice those flags and form their own opinions.

I value your perspective on this stuff a lot, grumblebee, and I hope I've communicated that well in the past, but this is a situation where I think we've established (and you've acnkowledged) that you're arguing from something of an outlier position, so it can be hard to relate the middle-ground compromises we make here on a daily basis to your view of the ideal discursive model on the site.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:32 AM on September 25, 2008 [2 favorites]

Politeness takes too many words to express - and it's boring to read. I vote nay.

Seconded, dick.
posted by electroboy at 10:32 AM on September 25, 2008

Seconded, dick.

That's bitch, thank you so much.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:54 AM on September 25, 2008

Oh, pish posh! Politeness is the essence of brevity. To wit: whenever you're reading pretty much anything on the Internet and you don't come across a comment from me calling everyone idiots? That's me being polite.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:55 AM on September 25, 2008

Articulating rude feelings is part of that creative impulse that runs through much of life.

This is brilliantly said and I wish I'd thought to put it that way.


Seconded, dick.

FTFY. Too many words.
posted by languagehat at 10:55 AM on September 25, 2008

That's bitch, thank you so much.

You stole my line, fuckwad.
posted by rtha at 11:00 AM on September 25, 2008

You stole my line, fuckwad.

kiss my ass
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:11 AM on September 25, 2008

rasnouqdeirubi
posted by waraw at 11:13 AM on September 25, 2008

This is brilliantly said and I wish I'd thought to put it that way.

Point of order. You're out of order, assbag.
posted by electroboy at 11:23 AM on September 25, 2008

That's nice.
posted by Sailormom at 11:45 AM on September 25, 2008

I value your perspective on this stuff a lot, grumblebee, and I hope I've communicated that well in the past, but this is a situation where I think we've established (and you've acknowledged) that you're arguing from something of an outlier position, so it can be hard to relate the middle-ground compromises we make here on a daily basis to your view of the ideal discursive model on the site.

I don't want to bore or exasperate people by repeating the same stuff over and over. I know I do that sometimes, and I'm sorry about it. I won't keep saying "play nice" in this thread. (In fact, I never did that. I pushed for a discussion about motivations and the pros and cons of rudeness. I'm happy to see we're now having that conversation.)

I don't expect MeFi to become a tea party, even if I'd like it to be one. I'd be nuts if I thought that was going to happen. It's not going to happen -- largely because you and the other mods have the philosophy you expressed so well. I disagree with it (in an "if it was my site" way) but I respect it.

I still think there's value in my point of view. Similarly, though I never think we're going to wipe out violence in the world, I'm happy that there are always people out there advocating for peace. In one sense, they're fools for embarking on a doomed mission. In another sense, they're an important voice and I think we'd be worse off without that voice.

(Please note that I'm NOT equating violence with rudeness on MeFi. I'm equating the fact that both of these forces are not going to go away.)

There's a marked difference between two violent communities where in one everyone okays the violence whereas in the other -- though it's still violent -- there are always people who publicly oppose the violence.

Let's say I got what I wanted and MeFi became a tea party (assuming that's what I wanted, which is not completely accurate). Unless everyone 100% agreed that it should be a tea party, I would expect some people to say, "This place has lost a lot of it's dynamism. I think we should allow back some contentious comments." That would be healthy. It would be extremely UNhealthy for that voice to get stifled.
posted by grumblebee at 11:53 AM on September 25, 2008

Articulating rude feelings is part of that creative impulse that runs through much of life.

Honest question: is "articulating rude feelings" the same thing as being rude?
posted by grumblebee at 11:54 AM on September 25, 2008

THIS CALLOUT SUCK... goddamn. Party's already over.
posted by GuyZero at 12:06 PM on September 25, 2008

In regards to rudeness, I think that the appropriate response is already built into the system as most ad-hominen focused responses or other douche-bag tactics will general detract from the argument being made by revealing the ignorance of the poster.

Further, although it may be tempting to desire otherwise, any suggestion that an onus falls upon the moderators make us play nice is both unrealistic (in these troubled times, moderating powers are reserved for much more pressing needs) and threatening to many aspects of what makes metafilter so interesting.

if you are bemoaning $5 because someone posted something in a tone you really didn't appreciate, it may have been a mistake to have ever paid the $5 (not because you aren't wanted here, but because this isn't where you want to be).

While people acting like dicks can be really aggravating, especially in the middle of an interesting and important discussion, the only thing worse is to not have those people, from whom such a response has been elicited, there at all.
posted by sloe at 12:12 PM on September 25, 2008

You stole my line, fuckwad.

Everybody needs a hug Jesus.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:13 PM on September 25, 2008

I think there's a difference. You can't stop the sex drive. You can pass dumb laws against certain acts, but the drive is so strong that people will just break the laws.

...

I doubt Matt and company will ever do this, but they COULD do it. And they have much more power over what's goes on here than -- say -- the US government has over sex drives. The government can't delete sex acts.

The government couldn't delete sex acts, no. But they could, say, delibidinate everyone by chemical or surgical means. Sperm and eggs could be harvested and kept in a repository. If women are made unable to carry because of the delibidination, there could be special unaltered-solely-to-be-surrogates women kept on a high-security camp somewhere. Presto, no horny people.

Which is all to say that both are possible. There would just have to be a huge shift in how the US government works, just as there would have to be a huge shift in how moderation works here for any and all traces of rudeness to be snuffed out.
posted by CKmtl at 12:25 PM on September 25, 2008

What's odd to me is this: I admit my tea-party position is a minority one (though not a tiny-minority one), but that's just online. Most of the adult groups I'm part of offline are polite.

I've accepted the tea-party label as a shorthand, but in reality, that conjures up an image of formality that makes me uncomfortable. I contrast it against the work environments in my last few jobs and the creative collaboration I do at my theatre company.

Both in the theatre and at work, my colleagues and I disagree with each other constantly. I don't think I'd be exaggerating if I claimed that much of my day, each day, was spent in discussion with people who strongly disagree with me about various things. (For my plays, I don't allow the actors to wear costumes. They have to wear their street clothes. This has lead to an eight-year-long argument: me against about a hundred actors. New actors enter the argument all the time, trying to convince me to let them wear costumes. It has almost never gotten person, though it is always vehement.)

And yet these discussions are overwhelmingly polite. By "polite," I don't mean that people mute their views. I don't mean that conversations are filled with all sorts of polite rituals ("I hear what you're saying..." etc.) To me, all of the following are allowable in polite conversation:

-- I think you're wrong.
-- I strongly disagree with that.
-- You're wrong because...
-- You've failed to convince me...
-- You're not listening to me.
-- I'm angry because...
-- that's a terrible idea.

The key is to separate people's ideas and opinions from the people themselves. I can violently disagree with someone, and I can express my disagreement in sharp, honest language without calling that person a dickhead.

Sometimes it's hard to keep things from getting personal, but it's not THAT hard -- at least not for dozens of people I work with from all sorts of walks of life.

It's possible to set up environments in which people get to express themselves and get to disagree without constant personal insults. It's totally up to what the mods/employers/leaders want and what they know how to do.

As I see it, the benefit of sharp but polite conversation is that all views are aired and -- since people trust it's not going to get personal -- they are much more fearless about expressing their views in the strongest possible words.
posted by grumblebee at 12:56 PM on September 25, 2008 [1 favorite]

When I said "what's odd to me is this," I didn't mean that it's odd that MeFi gets rude sometimes. That's not odd at all. That's the norm online (though I don't buy that it has to be).

What's odd to me is the suggestion I keep hearing -- or maybe I'm reading things into people's comments -- that rudeness is inevitable. That if you get a bunch of people together, they are necessarily going to be rude much of the time. That hasn't been my experience. It was my experience in grade school, but as I aged, it seemed to happen less and less. So I feel a little like I'm in bizarro world when I hear that rudeness is inevitable -- or that it's necessary for creative work.
posted by grumblebee at 1:00 PM on September 25, 2008 [1 favorite]

Further, although it may be tempting to desire otherwise, any suggestion that an onus falls upon the moderators make us play nice is both unrealistic (in these troubled times, moderating powers are reserved for much more pressing needs) and threatening to many aspects of what makes metafilter so interesting.

The moderators DO make us play nice. They delete all sorts of hate speech and noise. It's a matter of degree.

if you are bemoaning $5 because someone posted something in a tone you really didn't appreciate, it may have been a mistake to have ever paid the $5 (not because you aren't wanted here, but because this isn't where you want to be).

I'm not bemoaning anything, and I'd be happy to renew my $5. I'm doing what I hope everyone does when they care about a community: expressing their viewpoints about what they think would improve that community.
posted by grumblebee at 1:05 PM on September 25, 2008

Sometimes it's hard to keep things from getting personal, but it's not THAT hard -- at least not for dozens of people I work with from all sorts of walks of life.

But there's a couple of things going on here that are at odds with e.g. Metafilter:

1. You have a few dozen people, not a few tens of thousand, in this ad hoc social covenant, and
2. You have the benefit of all the expressiveness and visceral social moderation that comes with real-time, face-to-face conversation with body language, vocal tone, and instantanteous social cues.

Tone over the internet is hard. With thousands of people who you don't know closely, it's harder still. The expectation that conversation on a website can be held to the same standards of carefully-managed is, I think, a just plain unrealistic one.

And even that aside—I have had workplaces and social circles where I've been able to have intense arguments with one or several people, and others where that hasn't worked because not everyone was either (a) comfortable with that kind of, uh, "rhetorically lively" environment or (b) able to disagree strongly while remaining civil. It's awesome that you and your dozens of colleagues happen to fall into that happy intersection, but it's a far cry from being the case for even the average workplace, I'd wager.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:10 PM on September 25, 2008

Wait, wait! Don't close the thread yet!

I need for someone to post the playlist for this thread.

My email list is - at this very moment - competing in our "name that tune" game.
posted by Surfurrus at 1:10 PM on September 25, 2008

I'm not bemoaning anything, and I'd be happy to renew my $5.

I think that was a reference to a different comment upthread, from nineRED.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:12 PM on September 25, 2008

Before I get around to kissing The Light Fantastic's ass, I'd like to thank you, grumblebee, for your thoughts and comments.

I do think that, in a community as large and varied as this one, some amount of rudeness is inevitable. You and your actors may be able to argue without it getting personal, but you also have a strong common purpose (good production, I assume), and I don't know that such a creature exists on MetaFilter. And, I think, rudeness is pretty subjective, and I can only imagine how many MeTa posts would happen if mods started to delete "rude" (as defined by whom?) comments on the blue.

I happen to think that one of the best ways to combat rudeness - not that I'm always very good at it myself - is to behave the way you do, with thoughtful comments that present an argument, and that challenge what's being argued, not the person arguing.
posted by rtha at 1:20 PM on September 25, 2008

cortex, I think all the challenges you brought up are valid (and challenging). But I don't think the problem is insolvable. Part of it comes down to the sort of tone you mods want to foster. I'm betting that if you, Matt and Jess all strongly wanted less flaming, you'd find ways (or try to find ways) to make that happen. And you'd have members here who'd be willing to help.

One example I'll bring up is AskMe. You guys have set up a pretty iron-clad rule that forbids conversational drift. I'd say that the impulse to derail is strong (maybe in the vicinity of the impulse to flame), yet you've by and large curtailed it -- even with the huge membership. You did it because it's a shared value. You set the tone, made some rules, and continually make sure that people follow those rules.

I know it's a ton of work for you, and I don't envy that. But you do the work because you feel it makes AskMe a better site. So, again, it's not just about what's possible or easy -- it's about values.

But I think you guys are cool with the general tone of Metafilter. Which is fine. The site certainly shouldn't be the way I want it to be.

But you've also set a tone that allows (and encourages) people giving their opinions. So that's what I'm doing.
posted by grumblebee at 1:23 PM on September 25, 2008

By the way, even if I could press a button and make all the mods agree with my vision of the site, I wouldn't expect that to lead to zero rudeness. The polite (but strong-voiced) communities I brought up (e.g. theatre) do involve some rudeness. It's just not the norm. And it's clear to everyone that such behavior is discouraged. And when it happens, there's a general feeling that troubleshooting is in order.

That's another difference between my idea and a tea party. At a tea party, if someone farts, the party is ruined. In reasonable polite communities, there are general rules and people troubleshoot when those rules are broken. Basically, I think this is what we already have here. I'm just in favor of nudging it more in a particular direction.
posted by grumblebee at 1:28 PM on September 25, 2008

MIJAGH.
posted by Crabby Appleton at 1:29 PM on September 25, 2008

I know it's a ton of work for you, and I don't envy that. But you do the work because you feel it makes AskMe a better site. So, again, it's not just about what's possible or easy -- it's about values.

But the difference here is we're trying to maintain an explicit utility in AskMe that's totally separate from the idea of free-wheeling conversation. There's a functional goal in AskMe that, we believe, necessitates a strong hand to keep threads useful, yes; but what we're trying to keep askme from turning into is not some inherently bad thing, but just a different thing: blue threads. We don't delete wisecracks from askme because they're not funny* or political sidebars because they aren't interesting—we delete them because it's at odds with AskMe's intended purpose, despite being pretty much a-okay behavior in most cases over on the blue.

Most of the cleanup we do in AskMe is an issue of cultural spillover from the blue/grey. It's not an issue of us being unwilling to put in more effort to make the blue like the green; it's an issue of the blue not, in the eyes of the community, being like the green in the first place.

But you've also set a tone that allows (and encourages) people giving their opinions. So that's what I'm doing.

To be clear—and this may just be one of those tone-over-IP issues I was talking about manifesting itself, here—I am glad you're giving your opinion and I wouldn't want to stifle it. To me, a couple of your responses have read in part like you feel I'm telling you not to state or defend your opinion. I'm not saying that at all; I'm just presenting my differing view on the points you're raising.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:35 PM on September 25, 2008

*sometimes they are not, in fact, funny, however. This holds for the blue, as well, where they are allowed to stand in all their unfunniness generally speaking.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:38 PM on September 25, 2008

grumblebee: The wicked flee when no man pursueth.
posted by Crabby Appleton at 1:42 PM on September 25, 2008

Cortex, don't worry. I don't feel even slightly censored or ganged up on.

On Metatalk, it's sometimes unclear what a poster is trying to achieve. He might be demanding change, he might be complaining, he might be making a suggestion, he might be asking a question or he might be trying to spark discussion. I wanted to make it clear that I'm asking and sparking. I'm not demanding anything. My "I'm just giving my opinion" was just an attempt to make my intentions clear.

Now I'm off to rehearsal to politely argue with people.
posted by grumblebee at 1:44 PM on September 25, 2008

"In regards to rudeness, I think that the appropriate response is already built into the system as most ad-hominen focused responses or other douche-bag tactics will general detract from the argument being made by revealing the ignorance of the poster."

You would say that, Single-Link-Op-Ed!

"To me, all of the following are allowable in polite conversation:

-- I think you're wrong.
-- I strongly disagree with that.
-- You're wrong because...
-- You've failed to convince me...
-- You're not listening to me.
-- I'm angry because...
-- that's a terrible idea.

The key is to separate people's ideas and opinions from the people themselves. I can violently disagree with someone, and I can express my disagreement in sharp, honest language without calling that person a dickhead."

I take responsibility for being an impulsive, impatient person, and an irritable one at that (at least some of the time), but I also know that the motivation to control the discourse, especially with a view towards politeness, can be a rhetorically manipulative technique and that a legalistic view of phrasing has little to do with whether or not a statement is actually "polite."

I dunno. Maybe it's because I did a bit of Model UN in college, where you're rather forced to use procedural language, but I know that saying "It would not be in China's interest to second your motion" can be just as mean as "Fuck you."

I realize that politeness is more about respecting the strictures of conversation than removing nasty sentiment, but that can be used to disenfranchise legitimate disagreement, especially when combined with class communication issues. But just watch America's Next Top Model to see how disingenuous use of "I" statements can be used to be a nasty bitch while giving little rhetorical options in return, aside from "Fuck you."
posted by klangklangston at 2:28 PM on September 25, 2008

grumblebee: "... much of my day, each day, was spent in discussion with people who strongly disagree with me about various things. (For my plays, I don't allow the actors to wear costumes. They have to wear their street clothes. This has lead to an eight-year-long argument: me against about a hundred actors. New actors enter the argument all the time, trying to convince me to let them wear costumes..."

Not being snarky, genuinely curious here - how do you draw the line between "street clothes" and "costumes"? What do you do when an artist appears in what you perceive to be a costume but are met with "whaddaya mean? I wear this stuff all the time!"? Surely this has happened at least once?
posted by dg at 2:41 PM on September 25, 2008

Great question, dg, but I think it's serious derail territory, so I'll memail you. I'll be happy to send the info to anyone else who is interested. Just memail me.
posted by grumblebee at 2:55 PM on September 25, 2008

Part of it comes down to the sort of tone you mods want to foster. I'm betting that if you, Matt and Jess all strongly wanted less flaming, you'd find ways (or try to find ways) to make that happen. And you'd have members here who'd be willing to help.

I cringe every time someone suggests something like this. There are already a ton of moderating decisions made on this site with regards to content and there is the corresponding hue and cry about "censorship." Imagine if this level of moderation were applied to "tone." Not only would it be patently impossible for the mods to monitor this level of minutiae, but it assumes that tone can be judged objectively, which it definitely can not. We can't even decide on which words are offensive, let alone how they're strung together.

And finally - I just love the "you'd have members here who'd be willing to help." We don't need vigilantes policing the tone of the site. This would suck, hugely. The callouts are already surreal enough without having some metafilter version of a hall monitor coming around to tell us to be nice. no thanks.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 3:39 PM on September 25, 2008 [1 favorite]

I suspect that I contribute a hell of a lot more that makes this place fun and interesting than 95% of the people here

What a remarkably obnoxious comment! And not fun! Interesting perhaps, as an example what a certain type of internet bully says.
posted by longsleeves at 3:43 PM on September 25, 2008

TLF, by "moderating tone" I just mean pruning away, "You're a dick!" "Fuck you, asshole" and "If you think that, you're a major idiot" comments. If the pruning went further than that, I'd be against it.

And by "members willing to help," I meant helping to come up with ideas to make the site less rude -- I didn't mean help with policing. I'm against that. I don't even like the current level of policing.
posted by grumblebee at 3:47 PM on September 25, 2008 [1 favorite]

I volunteer to man the MeTaser^TM.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:57 PM on September 25, 2008

TLF, by "moderating tone" I just mean pruning away, "You're a dick!" "Fuck you, asshole" and "If you think that, you're a major idiot" comments. If the pruning went further than that, I'd be against it.

And by "members willing to help," I meant helping to come up with ideas to make the site less rude -- I didn't mean help with policing. I'm against that. I don't even like the current level of policing.

I think this site polices itself pretty well. From what I can see, the major assholes feel censored, and the overly sensitive feel mildly dissed. Any attempt to further moderate language and tone is going to seriously upset the balance here and I think it will really degrade the sense of community that we have. Anyone who comes out flaming generally gets the smackdown from the general community - and we also have the mods to back us up if necessary. I think that "great is the enemy of good" when it comes to policing content, and it's incredibly easy to destroy a thriving community in the effort to make everyone happy.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 4:15 PM on September 25, 2008

I think - please correct me if I'm understanding you wrong grumblebee - that part of what grumblebee can't really understand is the necessity for labeling, a cognitive distortion. If person A is objecting to person B's opinion/view, it is pretty much the same to say "What you're saying is fucking stupid" as "You are fucking stupid", except the first way actually addresses the point, while the second is a condemnation of person B's whole person. And there's no reason to condemn anyone as a person - or so I and the people who believe in the concept of cognitive distortions would argue - especially most posters arguing in good faith. The result is people getting defensive - and why wouldn't you, when you feel like you as a person are being attacked? - and then derails, metatalk callouts, flameouts, often more work for the admins and bad feelings all around.

If we're genuinely interested in having discussions and debates, we don't want to go out of our ways to make people defensive, right? At least if we can help it? I don't think grumblebee is even calling for politeness - which brings to mind formality, insincerity, holding back - so much as just less personal attacks. This does not get in the way of fun, wit, wisecracks, strong views and opinions.
posted by Ira_ at 4:47 PM on September 25, 2008

I suspect that I contribute a hell of a lot more that makes this place fun and interesting than 95% of the people here.

I know people that suspect their phones are tapped by the Zionist Occupation Government and that the postman is secretly monitoring the behavior of their cats.

Not all suspicions are accurate.
posted by scrump at 5:10 PM on September 25, 2008

But all the ones you just listed are.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:11 PM on September 25, 2008

Wait - did you say "Zionist Occupation Government?" Sorry. Thought you said my phones were tapped by the "Pathetic, Greedhead, Imbecilic Occupation Government." My bad. Carry on.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:15 PM on September 25, 2008

What a remarkably obnoxious comment! And not fun! Interesting perhaps, as an example what a certain type of internet bully says.

Interesting perhaps, also, as an example of what someone being bullied says. And this whole thread is not fun. I don't enjoy being put on the spot like this. I don't enjoy being accused in the manner I have been. I don't enjoy having my email reposted. I find all of this pretty obnoxious, frankly, and a display of some of the worst aspects of this community.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:51 PM on September 25, 2008

Also not fun: Having my inbox spammed by an anonymous coward. Congratulations, you've hit yet a new low.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:06 PM on September 25, 2008 [1 favorite]

I just want to say that Jofus's wedding looked lovely, and I wish him and Gemma all the best.
posted by flashboy at 7:26 PM on September 25, 2008

Well, this isn't going anywhere great. People, please don't pull spammy bullshit on each other.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:33 PM on September 25, 2008