Thanks. :) December 23, 2008 11:55 AM   Subscribe

Wow. I'm so impressed with the healthy, interesting, and totally civil (from what I've read) discussion in this post . I just wanted to say THANK YOU. :)

Man, this place has really come a long way in its discussion of women's issues, surprisingly fast. I felt like I just had to say something and give everyone a big group hug of appreciation. (Okay, quit grabbing my butt. Sigh.)

It was only a little over a year ago that I did a *ridiculously* silly post about flashers, something all women have experienced. It centered around a totally cheesy craigslist ad, for if you know my posting style, cheesy is often my main theme. (I rarely do posts about the fall of Yugoslavia or symbolism in the oeuvre of James Joyce, people. I'm more about alcoholic cupcakes, The Marx Brothers and upside down dogs.)

After a bit, the thread morphed into a serious discussion between a group of women who had experienced flashing, sharing their experiences (a lot of women never tell much of anyone afterwards, trained that it's best to keep such unseemly experiences to ourselves, pretend nothing happened and just move on). We were telling our stories, partly to comedic effect since that's a coping mechanism. Ahhh... but then we admitted to eachother that sometimes we wished we could understand what's in a flasher's mind... and speaking for myself, I meant purely for my own edification. I then made a stream of consciousness statement, openly pondering the law of averages, and wondering if anyone reading the thread had flashed and could explain something I really didn't understand. (And might I add that within the next two weeks, I received six such lengthy and incredibly candid e-mails from people. They were actually really interesting and enlightening to me -- so thanks immensely to those who were brave enough to share their stories with me. They were all really respectful and I appreciated the insights they contained.)

Anyhow, at that point in the thread it was just women kinda bonding over a shared experience, until a Meta was called by a male member whereupon I was firmly branded "sexist." The title of the Meta was "Hysterics" (which of course was not patronizing or sexist at all, for as I am ladyfolk, hysteria, the vapors, and consumption are clearly things I deal with on a regular basis). Within five minutes of the Meta my post was ceremoniously deleted, however not an eyelash was batted over the original poster's comment: "Yeah, men are scum, miss lynnster. Now bend over." as being inappropriate or demeaning. That sent me a big message so at this point I decided that rather than defend myself (I just squeaked out a few awkwardly uncomfortable responses like, "Geez, I'm a troublemaker, huh?" and "I'm not sexist. I loves me some men!") or letting myself get terribly upset, I walked away from the situation for my own benefit, pretty much acknowledging that my voice wasn't going to be heard as it wasn't my peer group or audience. I'm old enough to know you should choose battles that are big enough to matter and small enough to win... and I knew I was in over my head with this one. Besides, it seemed surreal to me that all of this ire had stemmed from a silly craigslist post.

The two intense Metas that followed, with their thousands of comments and the multi-flameouts (Jenni Diski, for example) were unexpected and to be honest at first they freaked me the Hell out as they were happening. I was like, "Jesus. This is too intense. I can't believe my stupid flashing post instigated this." But as it unfolded I read along, and after being inspired by so many of the comments I walked back in after a while. That second thread became the first time I openly told the story of when I was attacked as a teen... which, frankly, was very freeing to be able to speak about publicly. I was able to share because at that moment I felt that I was in a safe enough environment that I wasn't worrying at all about how I or my experience would be judged, and I can't stress enough what a big thing that is for people. Later I went to a couple of meetups in SF where women pulled me aside to thank me for my part in the Boyzone conversation, and in truth I was kind of humbled and embarrassed by the attention at first. It felt weird, having people I had never met before coming up to me to talk about it.

But reading the thread that happened today I suddenly got a warm feeling about those conversations and this place as I realized there really HAS been an insane amount of progress in the attitudes and dialogues and that Metafilter really has become a safe, less judgmental place in regards to women's issues and perspectives. Seems to me that those conversations last year really made a difference. So I'm just proud of people and wanted to say so. For any positive part you played in those conversations in order to help this community to evolve into a better, more welcoming place... please pat yourself on the back. You rock.

It's a great thing for people to not feel they have to walk away from a topic, acknowledging that their stories aren't going to be understood or heard before they even try. It's much better to feel safe, respected and included. And on a personal note, I'm thrilled that both women AND men here now uniformly recognize why telling a woman to "bend over" when there's a disagreement *really* isn't funny.

Anyhow, I'm babbling. But I just wanted to thank you all for your part in making the inter-sexual communication in this place SO much more healthy, interesting, and mutual. Yay. I'll shut up now.
posted by miss lynnster to MetaFilter-Related at 11:55 AM (112 comments total) 10 users marked this as a favorite

Well, it's very rare that you'll meet a guy who'll say 'Making passes at barely pubescent girls is just dandy!"
posted by jonmc at 12:02 PM on December 23, 2008


See what a difference Obama makes?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:05 PM on December 23, 2008 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I was somewhat startled too. Yay us!

(((Miss Lynnster)))
posted by schyler523 at 12:06 PM on December 23, 2008


Nobody dosen't like Obama.
There's always room for Obama.
You're in good hands with Obama.
That's a spicy Obama!
Where's the Obama?
posted by jonmc at 12:07 PM on December 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


what a fuckin' chickzone
posted by Eideteker at 12:09 PM on December 23, 2008


Stay classy, Eideteker!
posted by miss lynnster at 12:10 PM on December 23, 2008 [2 favorites]


Okay, quit grabbing my butt.

That was me... sorry.
posted by scody at 12:10 PM on December 23, 2008


(But seriously, I was impressed and even a little relieved to see how the discussion's gone there so far, too. I think we've got a lot of good eggs around here these days, yo.)
posted by scody at 12:11 PM on December 23, 2008


miss lynnster, I've actually met eideteker. He is pretty classy, he's just screwing around.
posted by jonmc at 12:12 PM on December 23, 2008




How can Obama do so much good in the world and still manage to have such glorious pecs? Does he do good WHILE he works out?
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:16 PM on December 23, 2008


When you looked down and saw only one set of footprints it was because Obama was carrying you around the beach on his back and getting totally ripped by doing so.
posted by ND¢ at 12:18 PM on December 23, 2008 [43 favorites]


MetaFilter: evolving into a better, more welcoming place
posted by netbros at 12:26 PM on December 23, 2008


I, for one, refuse to evolve. It takes too much work. Besides, I like my prehensile tail.

(take everything I say with a grain of salt. My avulsion fracture in my foot is keeping me confined to quarters for the next three weeks. I can't go to work. I can't go hang out. And I lost my cellphone yesterday on a doctor visit (long story), so I can't call anybody and everybody's away anyway for the holidays, and I have to depend on Pips to bring me stuff instead of getting it myself and I'll probably have to forgo the Chuck Berry show on New Years, dammit. *sulks*)
posted by jonmc at 12:32 PM on December 23, 2008


He is pretty classy, he's just screwing around.

I've met him too; his humor is frequently opaque here.

I'm in a very bad mood at the moment because the guy who told miss lynnster to "bend over" (who was banned for a long time here and recently let back in on a "one strike you're out" policy) has coincidentally made a (possibly stunty?) MeFi post about feminism with predictable (to me) results.

I thought the not-rape thread went well.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:32 PM on December 23, 2008


(possibly stunty?)

ya think?

The best response to stunty posts is to go off on wild-ass tangents that they wouldn't expect. Getting all agitated only satisfies them.
posted by jonmc at 12:35 PM on December 23, 2008


I was very happy to see that discussion, too.

For real. I had my doubts about online communities actually noticably changing after all of these conversations, but I think this kind of thing is testament to that fact. This community is really awesome.

Also, I'm so glad MetaTalk exists (and the mods, duh). It helps Metafilter run so much more effectively than most organizations (even IRL) that I'm familiar with.
posted by lunit at 12:36 PM on December 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


The best response to stunty posts is to go off on wild-ass tangents that they wouldn't expect.

jonmc? Go off on a tangent? Never!
posted by amro at 12:37 PM on December 23, 2008


It'd break my fat old heart if you disapproved, really.
posted by jonmc at 12:39 PM on December 23, 2008


I want to know more about the alcoholic cupcakes. Because if you are what you eat, I've been devouring these for years without knowing it.

But thanks for this post, miss lynnster. There are so many MeTalk threads about posts where the comments go completely haywire, it's nice to hear about when they went well. And I missed that post initially, so it was quite interesting to go back and read it.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:47 PM on December 23, 2008


I'm in a very bad mood at the moment because the guy who told miss lynnster to "bend over" (who was banned for a long time here and recently let back in on a "one strike you're out" policy) has coincidentally made a (possibly stunty?) MeFi post about feminism with predictable (to me) results.

As perhaps the "predictable result" cited above, let me just say that I really am sorry if I am correct in this assumption. I was more trying to poke the bear rather than feed the troll and I should have just done none of the above. In my sad and pathetic defense I was trying to somewhat follow the philosophy jonmc states above:

The best response to stunty posts is to go off on wild-ass tangents that they wouldn't expect. Getting all agitated only satisfies them.

I'm a moron.

If it's any consolation, I have a daughter and all of this scares the crap out of me.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:57 PM on December 23, 2008


I'll gently dissent, in that this call-out is slightly patronizing, even if its writer seems to mean well.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:08 PM on December 23, 2008 [7 favorites]


yeah Pollomacho, I didn't mean you at all and I felt that you actually tried to make light of that dumb comment in a decent way. You're fine, sorry if it seemed like I was calling you out.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:09 PM on December 23, 2008


So far 18 out of the 74 comments in that newest feminism demolition derby are yours, jonmc. While you're laid up, I hope you're also being treated for Male Answer Syndrome...
posted by hermitosis at 1:11 PM on December 23, 2008


That lipstick feminism thread is going to ass. To ASS.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:12 PM on December 23, 2008


OK, phew, anybody seen the penguins dressed as santa thread?
posted by Pollomacho at 1:15 PM on December 23, 2008


I haven't read the not-rape thread, but the feminism thread is going terrible. And Jonmc is part of the problem there, as far as I can tell.
posted by garlic at 1:16 PM on December 23, 2008


So far 18 out of the 74 comments in that newest feminism demolition derby are yours, jonmc.

mainly due to the fact that I can't do anything else other than drink and surf the net for entertainment right now. why you take anything I say seriously is beyond me.
posted by jonmc at 1:16 PM on December 23, 2008


Notice that they didn't dress any of the penguins up as MRS. Claus...
posted by hermitosis at 1:16 PM on December 23, 2008


Totally civil? schroedinger was being a total asshole within the first 10 posts.
posted by Riemann at 1:18 PM on December 23, 2008


While you're laid up, I hope you're also being treated for Male Answer Syndrome...

I refer you here...
posted by jonmc at 1:24 PM on December 23, 2008


Totally civil? schroedinger was being a total asshole within the first 10 posts.

Not disagreeing, maybe "mostly civil" is a better laudatory term. By the time I saw those comments they were pretty well entrenched in the thread but I agree, really fighty and not okay.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:24 PM on December 23, 2008


Civil in aggregate.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:31 PM on December 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


Totally civil? schroedinger was being a total asshole within the first 10 posts.

Compared to what used to happen here, that dialogue is all very, very civil. And waaaaaay more interesting to read.
posted by miss lynnster at 1:31 PM on December 23, 2008


(Okay, well, maybe I should go back and read the post again to see what assiness I'm apparently missing.)
posted by miss lynnster at 1:33 PM on December 23, 2008


I refer you here...

And I'm going to politey suggest that you take those critques to (your fat old) heart because some people take this place seriously and they're no more right or wrong than you are and we all need to get along.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:34 PM on December 23, 2008


we all need to get along.

not to be an asshole, but what does that exactly mean? We all have to like eachother? That's not civility, that's banality. There's certain people here I utterly loathe and there's plenty of people who I'm sure loathe me. Should we pretend otherwise?
posted by jonmc at 1:37 PM on December 23, 2008 [3 favorites]


Jon, you should be a gentleman and pretend to like people while talking about them behind their back.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:41 PM on December 23, 2008


I like Jon, but I still will watch in pleasure if he flames out right here and now. Does that make a me a bad person? Sometimes you just want to watch the world burn.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:43 PM on December 23, 2008


not to be an asshole, but what does that exactly mean? We all have to like eachother?

I'm pretty sure it means "Please stop being a dick kthxbye"
posted by dersins at 1:43 PM on December 23, 2008 [11 favorites]


I cannot figure out what post you all are referring to. But yay on the Not Rape thread. I was noticing how wonderful that thread was going (so much that I felt comfortable sharing my stake in it, which I don't usually do when threads get super personal like that). I also very clearly remember previous sexism threads and Meta's. They have not gone as well. Miss Lynster, thank you...you were a definite inspiration and guidance to me during all that mess way back when, which I remember discussing at the meetup where we met. I was going through similar interpersonal issues at that time, and all the interactions back then were quite fortuitous. It's weird, but seeing this thread today is a sort of closure for me. I guess I'm also super bummed about the holidays this year...I've seen more random acts of meanness than anything, so knowing that some things (MeFi) are evolved and still snarky as ever is really, really comforting. Big hugs all!
posted by iamkimiam at 1:49 PM on December 23, 2008


Oyzone.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:49 PM on December 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


My post timing is awesome.
posted by iamkimiam at 1:50 PM on December 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


I'm pretty sure it means "Please stop being a dick kthxbye"

There you go. You're not pretending to like me. That's good.
posted by jonmc at 1:50 PM on December 23, 2008


HOW ARE YOU BUMMED COME TO MY MEETUP
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:50 PM on December 23, 2008


Ok jon... I sent you a nice personal e-mail earlier. Thanks for making me reconsider the things I said by promptly shitting in this thread. Happier now? I realize you're in a crappy mood. Please stop punishing everyone else. kthx.
posted by miss lynnster at 1:51 PM on December 23, 2008


Miss Lynnster, I think your thread about flashers ('flashis' has occurred to everyone else long ago, hasn't it?) and the associated MeTa are two of the the greatest Metafilter has ever produced.

They totally changed my thinking about something I'd thought I understood very well, and they were just absolutely revelatory about so many of us.
posted by jamjam at 1:52 PM on December 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


I realize you're in a crappy mood. Please stop punishing everyone else. kthx.

Fair enough.

*exits thread, cranks up "N.I.B." punches wall.*
posted by jonmc at 1:54 PM on December 23, 2008


not to be an asshole, but what does that exactly mean?

It means that if a lot of people tell you that if you turn a thread that's not really about you or even a topic that's near and dear to you into a "What does jonmc think about topic X and also what does he think about all other MeFites' thoughts about Topic X" then you're taking a website that is for several tens of thousands of people and acting like it's your own corner bar and you're having a conversation with a few close friends and maybe a few not-so-close friends.

"We all need to get along" means that this place isn't going to be exactly like any one of us wants it to be and we all have to bend a little from our Ideal MetaFilter in order to accomodate the many different sorts of people that are here. Some people do this more graciously than others.

I don't care who you pretend to like and not like, honestly. What I do mean is that when you're bored and/or drinking and/or feeling fighty you seem to be unable sometimes to step away from a thread where people are disagreeing with you. When the people who are disagreeing with you also won't step away, then the thread turns into two guys arguing with each other at the expense of the community being able to have a discussion more generally.

There is a short list of people who have this can't-step-away problem. Many of them have day jobs (as you do most of the time) and are often sober (as I believe you are most of the time, but have indicated that might not be the case today) which mitigates this somewhat.

So, again, politely, the fact that you are laid up and on painkillers should not be an excuse for turning a thread about feminism into "The story of feminism according to jonmc" Whether you agree with my assessment or not -- and I'm not acting on this except to say my piece here -- I'd like you to consider that he fact that you keep chiming in on a topic you claim not to care much about is in some ways stopping other people from having any other discussions about the topic.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:58 PM on December 23, 2008 [21 favorites]


You know, jonmc, it consoles me to think that if you weren't doing what you're doing here, someone a lot less talented would probably be doing it, and that would be the worse for Metafilter (though the better for you, of course; oh well, there are always trade-offs).
posted by jamjam at 2:17 PM on December 23, 2008


I'm pretty sure it's not a zero sum game.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:22 PM on December 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


...makes mental note to visit feminism thread...
posted by fixedgear at 2:34 PM on December 23, 2008


There you go. You're not pretending to like me. That's good.

Telling you not to be a dick doesn't mean not liking you. I like you, and I've told you not to be a dick more than once. If I recall correctly, you've done me the same favor. Friends help friends not to be dicks.
posted by languagehat at 2:41 PM on December 23, 2008 [13 favorites]


I've met him too; his humor is frequently opaque here.

Based on the number of comments he's made on this site, you'd have to be right daft to not realize when he's taking the piss.
posted by gman at 2:52 PM on December 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


(i said I'd bow out, but this is too good: The podiatrists said that smoking interferes with bones healing. Pips just got home with a box of nicotine patches...and three packs of Camels.)
posted by jonmc at 2:58 PM on December 23, 2008


HEY! My first (sorta) callout and it's positive?! Merry Xmas indeed.

(of course, if quickly morphed into a negative jonmc callout thread, but that's alright. GOt tons of man-love for ya, jon. Fell better soon.)
posted by Navelgazer at 3:01 PM on December 23, 2008


heh. what I just commented on is classic Pips. I've actually been listening to this repeatedly, since it kind of describes us. If our wedding reception had been at a karaoke bar, I'd've insisted that we do a karaoke duet.
posted by jonmc at 3:08 PM on December 23, 2008


i said I'd bow out, but this is too good:

Actually? Nah.

Wow, this is starting to feel like the flasher thread and subsequent Metas. Which were also all about jonmc for a time. Make of that what you will. In some of those Metas, jonmc actually had some amazing insights and really improved his attitude momentarily, which impressed me at the time. But alas. That was then. Soooooo, thanks for sharing your karaoke escapades, jonmc. Feel free to believe this was a Metatalk post about Bon Jovi themed wedding receptions. Wooo hoooo New Jersey!

(It's not.)
posted by miss lynnster at 3:19 PM on December 23, 2008


miss lynnster: I posted that as my way of saying "yes, I flew of the handle and I'm sorry, but I'm better now and I'm myself again,' that's all, and yes, to say something nice about my wife.
posted by jonmc at 3:22 PM on December 23, 2008


MetaFilter: Friends help friends not to be dicks.
posted by fixedgear at 3:24 PM on December 23, 2008


This is great and I'm glad it came out well, but I just flicked through the first dozen or so comments and schroedinger was slopping out some serious troll chum in there, which, I suggest, is one of the reasons a lot of similar posts devolve into a morass of shit-kickery, flameouts and bannination.
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:29 PM on December 23, 2008


For posterity:
The Not Rape thread - evolving.
The Lipstick Feminism thread - devolving.
posted by iamkimiam at 3:33 PM on December 23, 2008 [3 favorites]


I too am pleased (for the most part) with the discussion in the Not Rape thread. I really like it when people step courageously but intelligently into new territory. For this same reason, the whole "age of consent is a myth" discussion is getting the ol' scroll-past.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:58 PM on December 23, 2008


I was happily suprised not to get reamed for my admission in the Not Rape thread, but also sort of disappointed because nobody seemed to have any comment, positive or negative about it. I think it's because I'm not adding something shocking or crazy to what I say. Instead of admitting I dated a 15 year old when I was 17, I should have added that she was blind, 13, and that I was, at the time, a 30 year old church minister. I'll bet THAT would have gotten a comment! WOOSH!

Alas though, I cannot tell a lie. I'm glad that the No Rape thread has stayed so classy.
posted by Bageena at 4:03 PM on December 23, 2008


A definite improvement over the Afghan dancing boys( being sold to creepy older men) thread.
posted by tkchrist at 4:05 PM on December 23, 2008


I really like it when people step courageously but intelligently into new territory. For this same reason, the whole "age of consent is a myth" discussion is getting the ol' scroll-past.

This same reason? I'm confused.

Because as I see it, assessment of the maturity level of the discourse around here is one thing, and positive impact on that level is another. They're not unrelated. We have the same discussions again and again here. And again. And again. It's kind of frustrating, and kind of like work sometimes. Scroll past if you like, but I don't think a cavalier or condescending attitude about doing so is not representative of what makes this improvement happen, or what might push the community into new territory.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 4:13 PM on December 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


Scroll past if you like, but I don't think a cavalier or condescending attitude about doing so is not representative of what makes this improvement happen, or what might push the community into new territory.

Maybe I just get really, really tired of hearing the same exhausted "age of consent is a societal concept based on nothing" tripe being lobbed up over and over again. The intelligent and cogent counterpoints made notwithstanding. Is that alright?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:22 PM on December 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


Children children PLEASE stopp fighting your ruining chanukah AGAIN!
It's like you don't even care
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:43 PM on December 23, 2008


Chanubakkana is a BIG LIE!

(Flees room weeping.)
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:51 PM on December 23, 2008


What I do mean is that when you're bored and/or drinking and/or feeling fighty you seem to be unable sometimes to step away from a thread where people are disagreeing with you.

There are people who get drunk and then post on metafilter? I thought that was something that only happened on collegeclub.com or something. This site gets more and more interesting each day!
posted by sixcolors at 5:11 PM on December 23, 2008 [2 favorites]


sixcolors: the FPP in question might be the first one I've ever posted sober.
posted by Navelgazer at 5:15 PM on December 23, 2008


There are people who get drunk and then post on metafilter?

I have some news about Santa Claus. You may want to sit down.
posted by jonmc at 5:28 PM on December 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


Hey, while we're on this trip, can anyone recommend the feminist version of metafilter? I'm not saying there isn't a great feminist presence, I'm just looking for e same caliber of discussion, but focused on issues like construction of gender (from multiple perspectives), political issues expressly affecting women, gays and lesbians, etc. I've been reading feministing and feministe, but something just seems a tad lacking. Any other suggestions? Some times I have some real stream to blow off on certain issues and I know metafilter, as much as I love it, can't be all things to me.
posted by piratebowling at 5:30 PM on December 23, 2008 [2 favorites]


Every post I've crafted sober has been deleted for one reason or another.
posted by gman at 5:31 PM on December 23, 2008


" Every post I've crafted sober has been deleted for one reason or another."

The solution is obvious.
posted by An Infinity Of Monkeys at 5:49 PM on December 23, 2008


I'm gonna make a fortune with that USB Breathalyzer.
posted by fixedgear at 6:27 PM on December 23, 2008


USB Breathalyzer

U Stinkin' Brewhound?
posted by jonmc at 6:39 PM on December 23, 2008


I'm also really happy with the Not-Rape thread, and I apologize for my angry comments early in. Pastabagel's early remarks brought up the memory of the train wreck that was the "Men Against Rape" post and I had wholly expected the Not-Rape thread to end up the same way.
posted by schroedinger at 6:43 PM on December 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


Agreed. The Not Rape thread was a smashing success.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 7:30 PM on December 23, 2008


I'm also really happy with the Not-Rape thread, and I apologize for my angry comments early in.

It would be easier to disapprove of your snippiest comments if they didn't so consistently crack me the fuck up!
posted by The Straightener at 8:32 PM on December 23, 2008


I don't know if we solved anything in the Not Rape thread, but I was gonna applaud all of you for the comments not ending up in Metatalk, but miss lynnster just couldn't contain herself glee.

So are we proud of ourselves for a healthy discussion or do we need to do a itsy-bitsy bit of self-reflection because I'm sure most of you are surprised as I am.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 9:16 PM on December 23, 2008


I read this meta as being sarcastic at first. In my mind, it sounded like:

"Wow. I'm soooo impressed with the healthy, super interesting, and totally civil (from what I've read) discussion in this post."

And I was surprised, because that was a really excellent thread. So, in summation, yes.
posted by voltairemodern at 9:52 PM on December 23, 2008


"Stay classy, Eideteker!"

That's like telling a bonfire to stay frosty. But hey, anything for you, sweetcheeks.

(Am I doin this feminizm thing rite?)

PS I like girls and not just in the sexy-sexy way so anything that makes mefi/the world a better place for wimmens (even the don't-call-me-a-chick chicks) is alright by me kthxbye!
posted by Eideteker at 11:34 PM on December 23, 2008


piratebowling, I've been thinking along similar lines. Don't get me wrong - I love MeFi just as it is, and am thrilled to see many feminists posting here, but as you said, MeFi cannot be all things to all people. I'd love to see something like MeFi specifically for those who identify as feminists, with similar high quality discussion.

If it weren't for my heavy commitments elsewhere, I'd look into starting such a thing myself.
posted by velvet winter at 11:59 PM on December 23, 2008


I haven't been able to find a comparable "Metafilter for [x] people" anywhere, for any value of [x], and I'm beginning to think that that conclusion was probably something I could have come to through a thorough definition of terms.
posted by penduluum at 12:21 AM on December 24, 2008


I am happy as a clam that this post seems totally unnecessary and surprising to people. That's kind of the whole point. So anyone this Meta seems irrelevant to... please carry on as you were. Nothing to see here.

Oh, and happy holidays.

posted by miss lynnster at 12:55 AM on December 24, 2008


"...flashers, something all women have experienced."

Wha? Unless you count my current amour "flashing" me as he walks through the living room on the way to the shower, I've never gotten flashed. Er, by a stranger. Am I missing out on some essential facet of womanhood?
posted by HopperFan at 2:10 AM on December 24, 2008


I doubt you need to take her wording so specifically. Just go with the good vibrations.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:35 AM on December 24, 2008


In case people are confused, my delight with the thread was with what happened before it turned into another "Educating men about rape is unnecessary and blames men and besides most rape allegations are false" discussion. It was nice for a while!
posted by schroedinger at 6:44 AM on December 24, 2008 [1 favorite]


To be fair, there's only maybe two guys who are really beating that drum so hard; it's just that a lot of other people have sort of run out of steam in that thread and don't feel like having that particular argument over and over again. I think people have been remarkably gentle about that red herring set of topics instead of being like "ZOMG screw you, you are part of the problem" or my favorite "All men are potential rapists" angle.

It's always hard to realize that our (American in this case, but I think we see it all over) legal system is imperfect and will always be imperfect. It's a much more complicated and worrisome awakening when you realize that, in some cases, it may actually be imperfect in a way that disadvantages people who are usually the possessors of privilege that they weren't aware that they even had.

I can sort of get how it's frustrating to look at rape/domestic assault legislation and say "hey, this seems like occasionally a man may get accused of something he didn't do!" without somehow being able to see the larger more generalized picture of how the legislation only exists because societally people of (relative) privilege have been getting away with crimes against people with less privilege since the beginning of time.

The difference between living in a society and living some sort of small-l libertarian fantasy world is that we make laws to protect people who NEED protection even if they sometimes may not "deserve" it or want it even if it means that sometimes people have to deal with the uncomfortableness that is trying to figure out who did what to whom and talk out loud about the fact that many people are forced to have sex against their will and that's a really horrible thing, maybe more horrible than people being (rarely, though sometimes) accused of being sexually inappropriate.

It's probably just my privileged position that allows me to think that the system "mostly works" in this regard, but if nothing else, I'd like to see more women feeling okay about talking about sexual violence and the nearly constant stream of married-sex-and-violence oriented NOISE that comes womens way from various other people. And I'd like to see more people convicted for crimes of sexual violence.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:07 AM on December 24, 2008 [3 favorites]


I doubt you need to take her wording so specifically. Just go with the good vibrations.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:35 AM on December 24


Probably good that I never saw the flashing thread, then. "All" seems very specific.
posted by HopperFan at 9:19 AM on December 24, 2008 [1 favorite]


in truth, those threads usually exhaust me pretty early. I don't know if I contribute to them well or poorly. I hope well. But in the end I'm usually capable of making one or two (unfortunately overlong) comments before the type of bizarre off-the-point defensiveness comes out in full force. usually, there just comes a point where you can't fight it anymore. if someone really insists on arguing about how unfair it is to call certain types of assault rape in a thread about how damaging non-rape assault is, there's just nothing you can do to stop them. they're just too wrapped up in their own self-pity or whatever it is to see the absurdity of it.
posted by shmegegge at 9:21 AM on December 24, 2008


I'm glad the discussion went well. I avoided the tread completely, because lately I've been feeling a little hair triggered and I didn't think that (even a good and thoughtful) discussion of rape would have been ideally suited for my mental health or maintaining a positive outlook on life.

Which is probably a good thing for me to worry about, because I've been seeing myself as a "burn the world" sort lately, and the more I have invested in it, the less a chance I'll dig out the gas cans and road flares.
posted by quin at 9:53 AM on December 24, 2008


To be fair, there's only maybe two guys who are really beating that drum so hard; it's just that a lot of other people have sort of run out of steam in that thread and don't feel like having that particular argument over and over again.

Yeah, that was definitely the case for my part. It becomes an exercise in exhaustive word games and disproportionate comparisons. That said, even that discussion is for the most part civil.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:49 AM on December 24, 2008


"it's just that a lot of other people have sort of run out of steam in that thread and don't feel like having that particular argument over and over again."


Yeah, but I never thought it would happen to me.

(And argument for enforced lurking: you get a sense of what arguments have happened and recurred enough times to no longer be novel or interesting to a community).
posted by klangklangston at 12:16 PM on December 24, 2008


To be fair, there's only maybe two guys who are really beating that drum so hard

The thread got a little tedious because almost every post seemed to be about registering one's disagreement with the outlier views.

I think there's a tendency to read until you find someone you disagree with, then scroll down to the posting box so you can have your vote counted, even if someone has already responded earlier or more eloquently.
posted by electroboy at 1:23 PM on December 24, 2008 [1 favorite]


By "you" I mean no one in particular.
posted by electroboy at 1:24 PM on December 24, 2008


i am now unable to load that page. i can look at the rest of the green and blue and grey without problem, but when i try to load the Not Rape Epidemic entry, my browser just sits there claiming its' trying to load the page and not actually displaying it at all.

i haven't bothered looking at packet sniffs or anything, and i don't think i have a "block advertising and battle of (and within) the sexes" plug-in, but, um, wtf?
posted by rmd1023 at 1:25 PM on December 24, 2008


*shakes fist at firefox*
okay, what fucking ever. problem is specific to the browser on one machine. i'm blaming firefox and the fact that my girlfriend has eleventy different weird-ass tabs of logic puzzles and potter fanfic open across several windows. (her computer's power supply died, so she's invaded my desktop machine at home)
posted by rmd1023 at 2:51 PM on December 24, 2008


problem is specific to the browser on one machine. i'm blaming firefox and the fact that my girlfriend has eleventy different weird-ass tabs of logic puzzles and potter fanfic open across several windows. (her computer's power supply died, so she's invaded my desktop machine at home)

*Points, laughs*

I now feel avenged for being song-virused by you, with karma having clearly chosen your girlfriend as an agent of justice. Consider us even!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:53 PM on December 24, 2008


I doubt you need to take her wording so specifically. Just go with the good vibrations.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:35 AM on December 24

Probably good that I never saw the flashing thread, then. "All" seems very specific.
posted by HopperFan at 2:19 AM on December 25 [1 schmavorite +] [!]


I've figured out that this is my problem with rape/sexual assault/misogyny threads on mefi. It hasn't happened to me, or, to my knowledge, any of my friends. And all these discussions start making me feel like I must be simply oblivious to the constant precautions I must take, none of my friends trust me enough to tell me about their trauma filled lives, and I'm clearly enabling horrific violence by not recognising as rape that time I used fake ID to get into a club and get bought drinks by and hook up with a guy ten years older than me. And I have seen a flasher, but how on earth was that meant to traumatise me? And then I get angry at everybody involved for making me feel like part of the problem.

My normal habit is to assume that constant sexual assault is simply another facet of American culture, so it's just the usual US-centrist cultural 'everybody', but I don't think that's actually the case (as I think I recognise names from Aust and Europe sometimes). And now I'm moving to the States next year, so should I start being paranoid and never walking around in the dark? Or are there actually women who haven't been sexually assaulted in America, and I'll be ok? I'm hoping that there is a group of other women on mefi who do not constantly fear for their safety, and just don't like mentioning their safe comfortable lives because it feels like just saying that not every woman is worried about getting assaulted is going to let somebody say 'well, clearly it's not a problem then, we can all stop worrying!' or some other woman will accuse me of trying to act like one of the guys or whatever.

Anyway, basically I was so relieved to see HopperFan's comment, and Ms Saint's in the not-rape thread, that I felt it was worth hoping that other people with my experience exist.
posted by jacalata at 1:51 AM on December 25, 2008 [3 favorites]


fwiw, jacalata: i'm an american woman and i've never been raped or sexually assaulted. i've never been sexually harassed in a workplace. the closest thing to the sexual aggression and harassment i've gotten on the street has been behavior in response to the fact that i'm fat, which brings a slightly different variety of negative behavior from various idiots, but it's not the same thing. i'm not tremendously fearful for my safety from sexual assault, by which i mean i'm about as fearful of that as of general assault.

i do know some women (and men) who've been raped. i don't think any of them that i know of were "jumped on the street" kind of stranger rape. off the top of my head, one of them was on a first or second date, one was with an ex, several were within an existing relationship; i don't know about the others. i know a *lot* of women (but only a few men) who've run into random idiots being sexually aggressive.
posted by rmd1023 at 5:14 AM on December 25, 2008


Well, for what it's worth, HopperFan and I had a long talk about it on memail. The resulting agreement was that my comments were taken more literally than they were intended.

I think my problem with the threads is that sometimes you can't say anything in a stream-of-consciousness mode without people taking umbrage with one phrase you said but didn't mean to make as a grandiose blanket statement... rather, you're just kinda rambling. Which is my forte.

I type 110, people and editing isn't my strong suit. I'm human. Especially when talking about a personal subject that is difficult for me to express my feelings on in the first place.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:52 AM on December 25, 2008 [2 favorites]


Bad punctuation! Rather "I type 110 people, and editing isn't my strong suit."
Although sometimes people aren't my strong suit either.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:53 AM on December 25, 2008


I think you were closer the first time. "I type 110 people" makes you sound like a casting agent on speed.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:45 PM on December 25, 2008 [2 favorites]


Good point. Perhaps "I type 110, people, and..." would've actually been best.

See what I mean about my lack of instant editing skills?

posted by miss lynnster at 4:17 PM on December 25, 2008


I type 110, people and editing isn't my strong suit. I'm human.

Just like Quincy Jones' mom.
posted by jamjam at 1:02 PM on December 26, 2008


Exactly. I'm writing from a mental institution. How did you know?
posted by miss lynnster at 4:31 PM on December 27, 2008


Or are there actually women who haven't been sexually assaulted in America, and I'll be ok?

I'm another woman who has never been sexually assaulted in American, and to my knowledge, none of my close friends have either. I was flashed once - I haven't yet had to seek therapy. I've occasionally been hit on strong by stupid drunk guys. That's about it. I occasionally get a comment on the street - only once has it actually been vulgar. In fact, it's usually something along the lines of "you have a pretty face" or "what a great smile".

When I read threads like the "not rape" thread and hear women chiming in to say that they and their friends are constantly harassed, jeered at on the street, scared to walk home alone, I feel lucky, but on the other hand, I have to think, Jesus, I must be giving off some sort of man-repellent pheromone.

I live in Brooklyn, by the way.
posted by Evangeline at 5:20 PM on December 27, 2008


I think some of the difference in experience may be related to our age/backgrounds. I have had experiences I would rather not go into, but in retrospect I think it's mostly due to the fact I was out on my own at an early age (teens), come from a working class/working poor background and my early working life was in the 70's, before there was any conception of sexual harassment. Bosses trading sexual favors for better shifts or raises was fairly common in entry level jobs that I remember. It was almost expected to be touched or grabbed in some way, to see how you would react and whether you would play along, if you were at the bottom of the food chain and perceived as powerless. That changed in the eighties.
Now as a middle class, educated person I would be amazed and upset if my daughters were subjected to the same kind of thing. And friends I have now that are my age but raised in a more suburban, upper middle class way have had a very different experience as well. Workplace passes were common across the board once upon a time, but it was much worse for those that had little or no resources to fall back on.
I think the same goes for acquaintance rape (or not-rape) or street crime. Those that are perceived as powerless are easier to take advantage of.
posted by readery at 6:43 PM on December 27, 2008 [1 favorite]


I'm another woman who has never been sexually assaulted in American...

"America" not "American" and really that should have read "I'm an American woman who's never been sexually assaulted". I've never been assaulted in any other country either.
posted by Evangeline at 7:10 PM on December 27, 2008


Thanks, readery.
(Although what I hear from a couple of friends on the corporate side, there are plenty of restaurant managers in this day and age who feel entitled to waitresses.)
posted by Lesser Shrew at 2:11 PM on January 1, 2009


« Older Redboxes and christmas. Phreaks unite!   |   Public radio is awesome! Newer »

You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments