Metafilter Ad Appropriateness FAIL

February 2, 2009 7:10 PM

"Metafilter Ad Appropriateness FAIL"

I love duck hunt as much as the next guy, but maybe not right inside a thread like this one.
I did some searching and couldn't find any previous threads on this topic, so what's the word with less than suitable ads in a given thread? Can/should anything be done about that?

posted by niles to Etiquette/Policy at 7:10 PM (208 comments total)

Generally if you can email us the URL that the ad goes to we can block it from the Google admachine, although usually we do that for ads we don't want to see on the site at all. I'm not sure if we can block at will.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:15 PM on February 2, 2009

Google auto-matches keywords with advertisers, which I have no control over. I can block ads at the domain level, so if you tell me where the duckhunt URL was headed to, or the handgun maker's site, I can put those in the block queue and they won't show up any longer.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:18 PM on February 2, 2009

But it's silly. There's nothing wrong with the ad. If we just take a collective deep breath and log back in, we'll all be okay.
posted by Pants! at 7:24 PM on February 2, 2009

I usually read the site while logged out and this really isn't that surprising. If there were a post about a serial killer using the Internet to target women of a certain race or religion, I wouldn't be surprised if the "Meet [Race/Religion] Singles!" ad popped up.

The ad selector has no sense of context or irony when matching stuff to the keywords.
posted by CKmtl at 7:26 PM on February 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

Seriously, one click of the refresh button and (I assume) the ad would change, wouldn't it?

What you call inappropriate, I call hilarious. Or would, if I saw ads.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:27 PM on February 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

Duck Hunt is the only one that's consistent, and it's always up top for me. The bottom switches between text and images, and really just isn't as much of a non sequitur as a giant cartoon video game ad right under the obit links

There's nothing wrong with the ad.
No, but slightly off ads have always struck me as a sign of someone not paying attention. Not sure if this is a big of an ooops as, say, this, but with all the ads out there I'm sure there's something maybe a little better, IMHO.

[NOT- ADDIST]

and on preview, no, duck hunt is always there.
posted by niles at 7:30 PM on February 2, 2009

really, i have a great sense of humor. i promise.
posted by niles at 7:32 PM on February 2, 2009

I just refreshed the thread a bunch of times, no Duck Hunt here.
posted by CKmtl at 7:35 PM on February 2, 2009

I believe you. I don't think accidental newlywed gun-mishandling death is always funny, by the way. Just sometimes.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:36 PM on February 2, 2009

The only reason to be upset is if you think a person made this ad selection. Remind yourself that these are algorithmic and you'll feel better.

Type "handgun shootings" into Google and the top result is a video of some gun enthusiasts getting their rocks off on the firing range. Should you be outraged? No. It's a computer-sorted list of lexical matches. You're required to read and evaluate the list for yourself.
posted by scarabic at 7:48 PM on February 2, 2009

Of all the crazy shit going down in that thread, I didn't think that the ads shown to non-members would be what showed up in MetaTalk...
posted by Ian A.T. at 7:54 PM on February 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

Yeah, that thing is a trainwreck. I actually think the post was well-crafted and in a gruesome way the best of the web, though obviously verging on declawing/circumcision territory. I don't know if it could have gone well in some alternate universe, but now, I feel like I should avert my eyes.
posted by chinston at 8:00 PM on February 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

Ian A.T.: "Of all the crazy shit going down in that thread, I didn't think that the ads shown to non-members would be what showed up in MetaTalk..."

No kidding. I'm flagging them as I see them, but nothing is happening to the boldly offensive comments that would've been called out in thread and deleted on another topic. Hell I've made comments that were offensive as some of these that were deleted in a flash. I guess the community is choosing not to flag them.
posted by Science! at 8:00 PM on February 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

It might help if you were clear about what you wanted when you posted this thread. This seems sorta "meh", and my pitchfork is all covered in dust.
posted by knave at 8:01 PM on February 2, 2009

I've been flagging, too, Science!

I also tried to contact the company running the couple's wedding site to get them to take down the guestbook, because it is getting more troll comments.

Anyone interested in helping me on that score? I'm sort of at a loss for what to do...their number just had a voicemail, and I sent them an email (but who knows when it will be read.)

Or maybe no one else cares. I don't know.
posted by peggynature at 8:05 PM on February 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

Pacifica Internet Technologies, LLC
Jim McGarvey ([e-mail])
1-866-681-0777
363 Tormey Lane, Suite 200
Bainbridge Island, WA 98110


Mywedding.com
[phone]
[phone] (Free)
Same address as above

And their contact form: http://www.mywedding.com/apps/public/mw/contact.php

That's the info I've got. If anyone wants to call and/or email to try to get them to lock up the couple's guestbook, I guess that might be nice.
posted by peggynature at 8:10 PM on February 2, 2009

Can/should anything be done about that?

Deleting the whole, big, pointless cauldron of self-satisfied bile, the only apparent purpose of which is for a bunch of people to exercise some really free-flowing, joyous contempt on a bunch of recently bereaved people? Nice Something Awful moment, Metafilter.
posted by nanojath at 8:11 PM on February 2, 2009 [7 favorites]

That thread is really depressing, but I don't know if trying to sanitize it would be purposeful. It would be nice to see people showing restraint though.. Or at least see a big chunk of the community come out and shout down the mean spirited vindictive crap.
posted by Chuckles at 8:13 PM on February 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

Huh? The post wasn't even Metafilter-worthy in the first place (LOL GUN NUTZ, MaudlinFilter, etc). And I'm sure the dead bride would have have approved of the ad, anyway.

What a ridiculous callout.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:14 PM on February 2, 2009

I propose that Google adopt a clippie-like robot mascot that appears with the ads. The lovable Sell-o-Bot is presented as 'speaking' the adds, with a comic book style word-balloon visual clue. A tagline appears below sometimes: "Sell-o-bot contributes to the conversation but his mind is always on commerce!" "Sell-o-bot is your confidential friend!" "Take heed! Sell-o-bot may promote businesses not certified as non-evil."

Then in situations like this we can merely chuckle at that mischievous scamp.
posted by fleacircus at 8:22 PM on February 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

Deleting the whole, big, pointless cauldron of self-satisfied bile, the only apparent purpose of which is for a bunch of people to exercise some really free-flowing, joyous contempt on a bunch of recently bereaved people?

I agree. The whole thing is just putrid and cruel.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 8:27 PM on February 2, 2009 [3 favorites]

On rereading, shouting down isn't going to do any good either. On the other hand, there are fewer purveyors of crap than I thought, they are just very persistent.
posted by Chuckles at 8:38 PM on February 2, 2009

That fucking thread is the most despicable piece of hot steaming bullshit I've ever seen on this site.
posted by ORthey at 8:51 PM on February 2, 2009 [5 favorites]

Thank you mathowie.
posted by peggynature at 8:53 PM on February 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

Shit post with vile comments.

Y'know, this was the first time that I went through a thread and felt the twinge of, wow, those new users are assholes. I am MetaFilter old.

And as that guy with that gun in his profile, I didn't really wanna be wading in there.
posted by klangklangston at 8:53 PM on February 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

has any thread ever been taken down when it's that far along? doesn't really happen.
posted by dawson at 8:54 PM on February 2, 2009

oh wow, yeah, shut my mouth.
excellent move there matt.
posted by dawson at 8:55 PM on February 2, 2009

>That fucking thread is the most despicable piece of hot steaming bullshit I've ever seen on this site.

>Shit post with vile comments.

>big, pointless cauldron of self-satisfied bile

I finally actually read the thread because I was interested in rubbernecking at this HORROR, and holy smokes people, you might dial back the rhetoric a bit. Other than a few comments, most notably by a user named kldickson (which is in and of itself hilarious), most of the comments weren't bad at all. It wasn't a good post by any means, but still.

(And, hell, I grew up in pry-my-guns-from-my-dead-hands territory, so am inclined to view the 'all guns are bad' argument as kinda specious.)
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:32 AM on February 3, 2009

What struck me was that the early comment from #1 that seemed to try to steer the discussion in a profitable direction, or at least avoid the likely pisser, met ears full of fingers. From some unlikely sources too.
It didn't have to go where it went, which was nowhere.
posted by vapidave at 2:48 AM on February 3, 2009

This is what happens when you have labels and name-calling. It's easier to forget the person, and to wall them off. It's not more effective than reaching out compassionately, but it's definitely easier.
posted by Eideteker at 3:20 AM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

The mods made the right decision.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:28 AM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

most of the comments weren't bad at all

Oooooopsies.

If this were fark (and I had an account there) I'd post a picture of Darwin.

'Shotgun wedding' has taken on a whole new meaning.

Hindsight's always 20 20 gauge

I think there were plenty of comments made that were not well intentioned.
posted by P.o.B. at 4:34 AM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

The ad selector has no sense of context or irony when matching stuff to the keywords.

Or DOES it? (cue dramatic sting)

But seriously, that was very very sad.
posted by Ritchie at 4:41 AM on February 3, 2009

OP here. I thought it was a sad story made worse because of the terrible firearm discipline on display in the blog entry. I wanted to highlight this aspect of the events. I expected some controversy, being a gun-related post on MeFi, but nothing like some of the comments made in that thread. No one wants their post deleted but, all things considered, I think matt did the right thing by deleting it.
posted by Liver at 6:17 AM on February 3, 2009 [5 favorites]

Wow, shoutout to Liver for being a class-act about the deletion. I hope when I get my first deletion (which I assume will be right after I get up the gumption to actually make a FPP) I handle it with that level of dignity. I love the Mefi snark but I love it even more when Mefites shows themselves to be mature and reasonable - something sadly missing from most of the web.

IMHO, YMMV, etc, etc.
posted by Bango Skank at 6:35 AM on February 3, 2009

I thought it was a sad story made worse because of the terrible firearm discipline on display in the blog entry.

Totally true. And yet -- and no fingers pointed at you Liver, it was a fascinating story -- my question for posts like these is "What will this thread be about?" In some cases people might talk about gun control or policy decisions or the irony of the death and the blog photos, but realistically some people are going to get the fidgets because of the total sadness+tragedy of the whole thing. Then they react in sort of predictable ways which is, to my ears "I don't know how to deal with my emotions so I'm going to respond totally inappropriately and knee-jerkily" and then this sets off a domino effect of other people feeling weird and bad and responding to the bad behavior comments. As soon as someone starts with the "USA is totally fucked!" comments or "stupid people deserve to be publicly shamed" (an opinion that is NOT held by the mod team here at Club MeFi) a thread is usually unsalvageable.

This is just me projecting, of course. The whole story struck me as terribly sad and if I were sitting around talking to my friends I might bring it up and we'd all nod and say "yeah sad" and maybe discuss gun policy or whatever. However in a big international community full of known, anonymous and semi-anonymous posters, it's not that surprising that the thread went south, and quickly. I personally am horrified when people make light of such a tragedy, as if bad (even stupid) things never happen to the people we personally know and love.

As we say someplace in the FAQ if the purpose of your post is, in some way, saying "Look at these assholes" it may not be a good post for MetaFilter. Thanks for being understanding about it, Liver.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:35 AM on February 3, 2009

Thank you for being a good sport, Liver. And thank you, mods, for deleting that cesspool of a thread.
posted by lysistrata at 9:40 AM on February 3, 2009

Man. That thread was ugly. There may have been a good discussion with that material, but not in that thread, and probably not on this site.
posted by eyeballkid at 9:43 AM on February 3, 2009

I missed that thread the first time around, and just read it now. Good lord. At least the ad network has the excuse of not knowing any better.
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:48 AM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

"I don't know how to deal with my emotions so I'm going to respond totally inappropriately and knee-jerkily"

Exactly. It is Not Cool to Have Feelings on the Internet.

I personally am horrified when people make light of such a tragedy, as if bad (even stupid) things never happen to the people we personally know and love.

Most people do stupid things and have lapses in judgment on a pretty frequent basis. Most of us are just lucky that those lapses haven't (yet) resulted in our deaths and provided amusement for the masses.

FYI, the couple's wedding site's guestbook looks like it has been secured and the troll comments taken down. I don't know if anyone else called or emailed, but if so, thanks for helping with that.
posted by peggynature at 9:58 AM on February 3, 2009

but then, do we have to try and anticipate the discussion thread when considering what to FPP? I know this goes around and around, but it seems the "it was a fascinating story... what will the thread be about" mode of thinking means that significant weight needs to be ascribed to the: "Metafilter: it's about the discussion" argument.

I'm not really bitching about the thread deletion, but do think it should have stayed and there should have been some selective heavy moderation of the more offensive comments. As far as "gun control" sub-debate i actually thought it was one of the least contentious conversations on MeFi about that issue that I have seen.

The "I hate stupid redniecks & glad she died" commentators should have been given a time out, everything north of that should have stayed. imo
posted by edgeways at 10:04 AM on February 3, 2009

Yeah, truly the Worst of Metafilter on display in those comments.
posted by Bookhouse at 10:16 AM on February 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

I'm not really bitching about the thread deletion, but do think it should have stayed and there should have been some selective heavy moderation of the more offensive comments.

When the offensive to non-offensive ratio starts to skew in the direction it did in that thread, it seems like a better idea from our perspective to just kill the thread. If we had gotten there earlier and maybe steered the thread in a better direction with a few early comment deletions, maybe it would have been okay but we didn't and by the time we all took a look at it, it wasn't salvageable in our opinion.

MeFi is not a heavily moderated site and turning it into one only in problematic threads isn't a great strategy because it is confusing to people who are looking for consistency in moderation. Having a blanket policy of "if a thread turns into a total trainwreck we'll reserve the right to delete it" is easier to be consistent about than "if you're acting up in a hot button thread, we'll delete comments that on their own would have been okay in a less contentious thread" We're not set up for heavy moderation here and we don't timeout people generally for being callous assholes and speaking ill of the dead. Both those policies are certainly open for discussion.

I'm aware you're not bitching about this, so I'm not counter-bitching, just explaining that trying to have policies that we can apply consistently is one of the things we think about that drives how we deal with particularly ugly threads like that one.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:20 AM on February 3, 2009

Maybe we should have a competition to see who is the most grief-stricken by the death of this irresponsible stranger who treated deadly firearms like toys, as did her husband and other relatives. The sanctimonious orgy of handwringing appalls me. Do you really see no difference between not being particularly affected by this woman's death and being glad she's dead? Yes, it's sad, but she has family and friends to mourn for her (and presumably one of those friends or a family member could have had the offensive comments on her blog taken down, rather than waiting for peggynature to swoop in with her superheroine costume on.)

I would never have dreamed that Metafilter was full of the same kind of grief-junkies who rushed to place flowers and teddy-bears outside the gates of various palaces when Princess Diana died (another example of a pretty young white woman whose negligence contributed to her own death.)

I don't want to be accused of trying to start the fight again, but it seems like everyone who disapproved of the 'ill-intentioned' comments has popped into to remind us all of just how much they disapproved, with no-one from the 'heartless bastard' side coming in to defend his or her comments. I stand by every comment I made, most of which I felt were more rueful black humor (whether you found them funny or not) than a slam at the deceased. Nothing in the thread really shocked me other than kldicksons' 'redneck' comment, which openly and explicitly expressed hatred.

However, I am one of those 'new users' you may have heard of, so perhaps my opinion carries no weight.
posted by ShameSpiral at 10:28 AM on February 3, 2009

That fucking thread is the most despicable piece of hot steaming bullshit I've ever seen on this site.

It was pretty bad. And it was more than just "callousness" or "speaking ill of the dead."

That thread was a showcase for every hate-filled bigotry that's been stewing away in certain posters on this cite for months. It's like people could barely contain them selves and at last here was an excuse to boil over and spew.

The only reason we should have saved that thread was as a museum to Mefi's loud mouth brigade. Just to remind them of what fucking loser hypocrites they really are deep inside.

But if it was kept around my fear would be that NRA membership would go up just out of spite.
posted by tkchrist at 10:34 AM on February 3, 2009 [7 favorites]

ShameSpiral, you'll find that occasional snarkmonkery and exceptional situations aside, folks don't really care too much whether someone's new or not, so don't undercut your opinion like that; you've got just as much right to opine on this stuff as everyone else.

On the flip side, framing your argument with dramatic rhetoric like "sanctimonious orgy of handwringing appalls me" is a good way to get people to ignore the substance of your comments no matter how long you've been around here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:38 AM on February 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

That thread was a showcase for every hate-filled bigotry that's been stewing away in certain posters on this cite for months.

Yes, that's why those posters were berated in the thread and the thread then deleted. To go on and use a metatalk thread as a forum in which everyone can re-state their opposition to the 'bad' comments in that thread is both redundant and self-righteous.
posted by ShameSpiral at 10:40 AM on February 3, 2009

I don't want to be accused of trying to start the fight again

Well I accuse you. Because that is just what you are doing.

There was no rationale for the ignorant bigoted shit int that thread and you should be ashamed-spiral of yourself for apologizing for it.

Look. I like black humor. But there is nothing funny or enlightening or even remotely "right" about comments like: "I'm sorry but it is pretty funny that they have guns to protect them from imaginary hordes of darkies and they always wind up killing their loved ones instead"

Yeah. It's awesome hilarious when racists get killed. Oh. Wait. We don't know they were racists. So let's just throw that defamation in there just because it's even more hilarious.

Hey anybody you love die in a drunk driving accident? Or overdose? 'cause that shit is hilarious. Fucking racists drunk drug addicts too.

Again now we know who the losers are.
posted by tkchrist at 10:42 AM on February 3, 2009

Yes, that's why those posters were berated in the thread and the thread then deleted. To go on and use a metatalk thread as a forum in which everyone can re-state their opposition to the 'bad' comments in that thread is both redundant and self-righteous.

Must be why you're here, huh?
posted by tkchrist at 10:43 AM on February 3, 2009

folks don't really care too much whether someone's new or not

Y'know, this was the first time that I went through a thread and felt the twinge of, wow, those new users are assholes. I am MetaFilter old.
posted by klangklangston at 8:53 PM on February 2
posted by ShameSpiral at 10:44 AM on February 3, 2009

Yes, that's why those posters were berated in the thread and the thread then deleted. To go on and use a metatalk thread as a forum in which everyone can re-state their opposition to the 'bad' comments in that thread is both redundant and self-righteous.

Actually that's sort of what MetaTalk is for, spending some time saying "Well that went badly, is there anything we want to do differently next time?" (as moderators, as community members, whatever)
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:44 AM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

Actually that's sort of what MetaTalk is for, spending some time saying "Well that went badly, is there anything we want to do differently next time?

Except it's not being used that way. People are merely re-stating the opinions they expressed in the thread. It's replay without commentary or analysis.
posted by ShameSpiral at 10:49 AM on February 3, 2009

Yes, that's why those posters were berated in the thread and the thread then deleted.

And yet here you are apologizing for them? WTF?

The only person not getting what Metatalk is for, in this instance, appears to be you.
posted by tkchrist at 10:57 AM on February 3, 2009

Do you really see no difference between not being particularly affected by this woman's death and being glad she's dead?

'Not being particularly affected' should cause one to skip over the thread in a fit of mehful indifference, or at most flag it.

Getting your nyuk-nyuks on is not indicative of 'not being particularly affected' by it. It affected you: you found it amusing.
posted by CKmtl at 11:00 AM on February 3, 2009

And yet here you are apologizing for them? WTF?

Only after numerous posters who had already said 'your comments are offensive' came into this thread to say the exact same thing. OK, well you think they're offensive, I don't. We are back to square one.
posted by ShameSpiral at 11:00 AM on February 3, 2009

You really wanna stick up for that shotgun wedding crack?

Look, I realize that you're new to the world of CHALLENGING OPINIONS, but seriously, it was at best lulzy noise and not some great zing of all time.

Oh, and the problem I mentioned upthread wasn't some sort of hate-teh-n00bs, it was "Wow, there are a whole lot of folks there who I don't recognize and they're acting like dicks." Hey, including you!
posted by klangklangston at 11:15 AM on February 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

You really wanna stick up for that shotgun wedding crack?

Look, I realize that you're new to the world of CHALLENGING OPINIONS, but seriously, it was at best lulzy noise and not some great zing of all time.

Oh, and the problem I mentioned upthread wasn't some sort of hate-teh-n00bs, it was "Wow, there are a whole lot of folks there who I don't recognize and they're acting like dicks." Hey, including you!

I never said it was the 'great zing of all time'. I merely said I didn't regret having written it. Whether it deserves to be regarded as noise would be up to the moderators.

I'm sorry you feel that saying 'I am Metafilter old', or calling me a dick, constitutes the kind of constructive feedback Jessamyn tells me Metatalk is for.

However offensive some negative comments in the original thread may have been to some members, I merely wanted to present an alternative view - that I did not find most of the comments so offensive as to warrant deletion of the thread, that I found the sympathetic reaction here and in the original thread over-the-top, and that I felt many Mefites had turned Metatalk into a mechanism to congratulate each other and themselves on the rightness of their opinions. I confess I may have been intemperate in my language, but when I arrived this Metatalk thread was already full of (what looked like to me) useless self-congratulation by a particular faction. I apologize for the vehement tone of my statements in this Metatalk thread, but not their substance.
posted by ShameSpiral at 11:53 AM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

There's loads of difference between being addicted to public grief, as alleged above, and outraged by people saying a woman's death counts less/is funny/was deserved because she only had a f^&%* associates' degree.

I signed up like two days ago, and that thread made me feel MeFi Old. Or maybe just old, at least old enough to have had actual avoidable, stupid tragedy befall people I care about.
posted by Coyote Crossing at 12:02 PM on February 3, 2009

that I found the sympathetic reaction here and in the original thread over-the-top

Wow. I second klang's dick comment.

I felt many Mefites had turned Metatalk into a mechanism to congratulate each other and themselves on the rightness of their opinions.

No. Just you.
posted by eyeballkid at 12:03 PM on February 3, 2009

"I'm sorry you feel that saying 'I am Metafilter old', or calling me a dick, constitutes the kind of constructive feedback Jessamyn tells me Metatalk is for."

What the hell is this passive-aggressive bullshit? Oh no, your feelings were hurt because I called you a dick after you acted like a dick? And I'm leaving aside the "Metafilter Old" thing because you clearly don't get it.

MetaTalk is also for calling people out when they act like assholes. Hey, guess what, there were a lot of people acting like assholes there, and your non-apology apology doesn't really matter. You were wrong about MetaFilter's tone, you're wrong about MeTa's tone, and as for constructive criticism: You may want to shut up for a while until you can understand why MetaFilter isn't SomethingAwful or Fark.
posted by klangklangston at 12:04 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

There's loads of difference between being addicted to public grief, as alleged above, and outraged by people saying a woman's death counts less/is funny/was deserved because she only had a f^&%* associates' degree.

I signed up like two days ago, and that thread made me feel MeFi Old. Or maybe just old, at least old enough to have had actual avoidable, stupid tragedy befall people I care about.

The associates degree thing was in kldickson's comment, which, as I've already said, shocked even me.

I challenge your amateur psychologizing, too. You assume that people who didn't react the way you did to this story must be callow youths who've never had tragedy befall them. Other posters in this thread have done likewise. You have no way of knowing this. Your statement is therefore akin to comments made in the original thread which assumed that the unfortunate couple must be rednecks, racists, or whatever. I never made any of these assumptions, and those who did should be challenged on factual grounds. Instead, shocked faces have been pulled and people have been harvesting easy favorites and a cheap sense of being in the right by posting comments that essentially say 'I, too, was offended to the utmost limit of my being.' There is sobbing 'me-too' noise just as much as there is 'lulzy noise'.
posted by ShameSpiral at 12:17 PM on February 3, 2009

I am one of those 'new users' you may have heard of, so perhaps my opinion carries no weight.

I don't give a good goddam whether you're a new user or not. Your opinion carries no weight with me because you're acting like a dick. Now that I've heard of you, I wish I hadn't.
posted by languagehat at 12:17 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

Look, it's like Lord of the Flies, but civility stepped in in the form of the mods, and some of the 'other' people, you know the kind, smug sense of self-superiority, are seemingly pissed. I heven't looked, but Im sure the lutz are in abundance over at fark. So maybe go there.
any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
posted by dawson at 12:20 PM on February 3, 2009

You're making a shitload of assumptions about the motives and characters of those who were saddened by the story, however.
posted by CKmtl at 12:23 PM on February 3, 2009

I'm wondering who is socking as ShameSpiral. Smells a little sweaty to me...
posted by slogger at 12:26 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

I don't give a good goddam whether you're a new user or not. Your opinion carries no weight with me because you're acting like a dick. Now that I've heard of you, I wish I hadn't.

I'm sorry to hear that, too, because I am a regular visitor to your excellent site, and much appreciated the answer you gave to one of my 'Ask Mefi' questions.

I'm sorry that so many seem to feel I am trolling or 'being a dick'. It's not that I don't understand why so many of the comments in the orginal thread were offensive to some, I just question the rationale for identifying so intensely with this woman, and I feel that it is about something larger than mere offense, especially given that my own comments which I felt (perhaps mistakenly) were relatively innocuous, and made no reference to class, nationality, religion or whatever, were still lumped in with those that did.

I will also point out that the distinction between new and old users was not introduced by me, I merely responded to it. If you're happy to have one person claim to be the embodiment of 'Metafilter Old' that's your affair, I suppose, but I reserve the right to express my opinion on that matter as well.
posted by ShameSpiral at 12:27 PM on February 3, 2009

I thought it was rather icky that the bent wasn't so much, "oh the irony," as "oh, those backwards people" because for the most part they weren't the MeFi demographic. Real Jr. High. Those getting their lulz suffer from an ungodly lack of imagination. Paint yourself a picture of the scene in the seconds after the shotgun went off: I can't imagine even my worst enemy on either side of that cloud of smoke.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:28 PM on February 3, 2009

You're making a shitload of assumptions about the motives and characters of those who were saddened by the story, however.
posted by CKmtl at 12:23 PM on February 3 [+] [!]

Read back over this thread, and tell me whether you find a post purporting to explain authoritatively the mentality of those who reacted the other way. You will find several before you get to my post. I merely retaliated in kind. Also, I never said that I personally was not saddened at all by the incident. I did find it sad, but unworthy of what seemed to me the unneccesarily intense reaction to the insensitive comments.

No, I am not a sockpuppet, I do not frequent Fark or Something Awful.
posted by ShameSpiral at 12:34 PM on February 3, 2009

Paint yourself a picture of the scene in the seconds after the shotgun went off: I can't imagine even my worst enemy on either side of that cloud of smoke.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:28 PM on February 3 [+] [!]

Which is kind of part of what I'm getting at. No, I choose not to meticulously recreate the scene of the accident, like some mediaeval monk meditating on the Stations of the Cross, and I wonder why you feel the need to do so. The story is sad, one of many, many tragedies that occur every day, and does not warrant the emotional fervor with which some Mefites are approaching it. I really wonder if people are offended on their own behalf - because they or their loved ones fit into one of the maligned demographics this couple was in (or assumed to be in). I'm not saying don't find the comments offensive, just questioning the peculiar intensity of the negative reaction. That is all.
posted by ShameSpiral at 12:40 PM on February 3, 2009

I challenge your amateur psychologizing, too.

If I had intended amateur psychologizing with no data to support it, I'd have observed that your calling the expressions of sympathy and sadness in that thread "over the top" were distressing warning signs of some sort of rigidly repressed emotional trauma, which in my experience is almost always coupled with a deep-rooted fear of intimacy, and that your making jokes in the thread — and your behavior here — is more than likely a defense against allowing yourself to feel too much. I would have pointed to your chosen screen name as further arm-waving evidence to support my tenuous contention, and suggested gently that your playing metaphorical suicide-by-cop — confirming your self-image by having strangers berate you — through the expedient of being a dick on MetaFilter, is probably neither the healthiest nor the most pleasant course of action available to you.

But doing so would have made me a dick, and this thread already has one in residence.
posted by Coyote Crossing at 12:42 PM on February 3, 2009 [5 favorites]

Your "questioning the rationale" of those with a reaction more intense than yours seems to boil down to calling them fakes (whoring for favorites) or sappy overly-emotional twits (hand-wringing grief-addicts).

You may find that "retaliating in kind" is not the best way of proceeding here.
posted by CKmtl at 12:43 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

"If you're happy to have one person claim to be the embodiment of 'Metafilter Old' that's your affair, I suppose, but I reserve the right to express my opinion on that matter as well."

And I reserve the right to make fun of your opinions for being juvenile and stupid. Like, hey, how many times will you chafe over that "MetaFilter Old" comment before getting that it does not mean what you think it means?

But please, keep up your scintillating challops—Tell me more about these teddy bears for Princess Diana and the pretty young white women and why that's just you telling it like it is, keepin' it real.
posted by klangklangston at 12:46 PM on February 3, 2009

"I do not frequent Fark or Something Awful."

Maybe you should start.
posted by klangklangston at 12:49 PM on February 3, 2009

So...anyone for a game of Duck Hunt?
posted by niles at 12:49 PM on February 3, 2009

more than likely a defense against allowing yourself to feel too much

She lived on another continent and I never met her. There's only so much one should feel. That's partly my point.

You may find that "retaliating in kind" is not the best way of proceeding here.

Well, I haven't called anyone a dick yet.
posted by ShameSpiral at 12:52 PM on February 3, 2009

I work for a competitor that does non-automated ad placement, so no surprise I'd be quick to say "Google Ad Fail", but I will note that a paper was making the rounds some time ago with a printout of Google automated ad placement gone awry: it was an article about a severed head found inside a bag at the airport, and the ad placements were all for a particular luggage company.
posted by davejay at 12:55 PM on February 3, 2009

God, I love it here.
posted by shitstorm at 12:55 PM on February 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

I'm not saying don't find the comments offensive, just questioning the peculiar intensity of the negative reaction. That is all.

Yeah. That's what you meant by being a completely insulting prick right off the starting block.

Look. If you got guys like me and Klang telling you your being a dick? Trust me. You're being a dick.

Here is the way I have learned to handle these things.

Step1: I say something I think is snark-tastic.

Step 2: Large dark brown cumulonimbus clouds begin to gather.

Step 3: Rather than pull out an umbrella and fight the shit storm with more insults and rationalizations, try your best to own up to the mistake and apologize.

Step 4: Get a sense of humor and Move on.

Step 5: Appreciate the Irony that's it's ME saying this.
posted by tkchrist at 12:56 PM on February 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

Like, hey, how many times will you chafe over that "MetaFilter Old" comment before getting that it does not mean what you think it means?

If people take my meaning the wrong way, I usually suppose that it's because I have expressed myself poorly.

I mentioned your comment again because other posters referred to it.
posted by ShameSpiral at 12:57 PM on February 3, 2009

So...anyone for a game of Duck Hunt?

Isn't it rabbit season?
posted by tkchrist at 12:57 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

There's only so much one should feel. That's partly my point.

And then, lulz city! w00t! I can't believe you're not not up all in this one.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 1:00 PM on February 3, 2009

"If people take my meaning the wrong way, I usually suppose that it's because I have expressed myself poorly. "

What about when most people take the meaning the right way, and there's one person who keeps taking the meaning the wrong way after repeatedly being told? Could it be that person who has the problem? I mean, I'm just throwing that out there. Spitballin', you know. Keepin' you in the brainstorm.
posted by klangklangston at 1:02 PM on February 3, 2009

Look. If you got guys like me and Klang telling you your being a dick? Trust me. You're being a dick.

I did not revive this issue. I did not turn the Metatalk thread from a discussion about the ads into an excuse for people to merely say 'I disapproved once and shall disapprove again', which is what most of the comments amount to.
posted by ShameSpiral at 1:07 PM on February 3, 2009

And then, lulz city! w00t! I can't believe you're not not up all in this one.

Well, that thread seems to have already headed south into 'offensive' comments, which is to be expected when it's posted under a glurgey heading like 'How photographers are helping the parents of stillborn children heal'. I expect it will be Metatalked, and the Metatalk thread will be people saying 'It's awful, and those people who told jokes are awful, don't you agree everyone?' Which is another part of my point, the uselessness of both that kind of Metafilter thread and that kind of Metatalk thread.
posted by ShameSpiral at 1:13 PM on February 3, 2009

There's only so much one should feel. That's partly my point.

Pray tell where you were trained in unilaterally delineating the limits of appropriate emotional responses?
posted by CKmtl at 1:15 PM on February 3, 2009

Pray tell where you were trained in unilaterally delineating the limits of appropriate emotional responses?

Amazingly, the same place you were.
posted by ShameSpiral at 1:20 PM on February 3, 2009

"I did not turn the Metatalk thread from a discussion about the ads into an excuse for people to merely say 'I disapproved once and shall disapprove again', which is what most of the comments amount to."

CHALLENGING OPINION!

"which is to be expected when it's posted under a glurgey heading like 'How photographers are helping the parents of stillborn children heal'."

LOOK AT ME I HAVE CHALLENGING OPINIONS!

"I expect it will be Metatalked, and the Metatalk thread will be people saying 'It's awful, and those people who told jokes are awful, don't you agree everyone?' Which is another part of my point, the uselessness of both that kind of Metafilter thread and that kind of Metatalk thread."

Yes, that thread is useless. IT SHOULD BE IN THE MINES, DIGGING CHALLOPS!
posted by klangklangston at 1:23 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

I did not turn the Metatalk thread from a discussion about the ads into an excuse for people to merely say 'I disapproved once and shall disapprove again', which is what most of the comments amount to.

You've done more whining and pointless "disapproving" than everyone else in this thread combined. But please keep going! I, for one, am deeply impressed by how edgy you are. Empathy is for losers!
posted by lysistrata at 1:24 PM on February 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

I DON'T HAVE LIVEJOURNAL I HAVE DEADJOURNAL!
posted by klangklangston at 1:25 PM on February 3, 2009

*weeps copiously on klang's behalf*
posted by Coyote Crossing at 1:28 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

A painful thought experiment might be to wonder what your internal monologue (and posting) would be if this happened at Alapine.
posted by vapidave at 1:29 PM on February 3, 2009

I, for one, am deeply impressed by how edgy you are.

I'm not trying to be edgy. I don't see the point of Metafilter if the opinions expressed are as trite and unexamined as those I could hear anywhere. "Oh, did you hear about that girl that died? Wasn't it terrible? There's a memorial up on Facebook, I'm gonna write on the wall.' (I mean, if we're gonna compare things to livejournal and the like.)

The intensity of the reaction to both her death and the offensive comments about it was unwarranted (from strangers). Screaming at me doesn't make you seem less intense.
posted by ShameSpiral at 1:32 PM on February 3, 2009

"I don't see the point of Metafilter if the opinions expressed are as trite and unexamined as those I could hear anywhere.

Dude, you're like an ourobourus of irony.
posted by klangklangston at 1:37 PM on February 3, 2009 [4 favorites]

Wow ShameSpiral, I'm sorry my actions bothered you. But I felt the attention from MeFi was partly responsible for those comments being on the couples' site in the first place.

It was precisely because I don't feel the same intensity of grief that the victim's family or friends feel that I chose to deal with it, because I could do so without intense personal pain, and spare those in her circle of acquaintance from seeing some truly horrible comments.

Amazing what passes for superheroism these days -- the ability to imagine yourself in someone else's shoes for five minutes, and to send two emails.
posted by peggynature at 1:37 PM on February 3, 2009 [5 favorites]

The intensity of (ShameSpiral's) reaction to (others people's emotions about) both her death and the offensive comments about it was unwarranted.

That's better.
posted by Space Kitty at 1:39 PM on February 3, 2009

Amazingly, the same place you were.

That would have been a zinger, had I been a part of the "you aren't feeling sad enough" crowd.

You're complaining about people criticizing others for not meeting some arbitrary level of emotion, while at the same time criticizing people for exceeding some other arbitrary level. Both positions are silly because—you may want to sit down for this shocker—different people are different. You're suffering from the added silliness of not realizing that irony.
posted by CKmtl at 1:40 PM on February 3, 2009

Dude, you're like a succubos of spelling
posted by found missing at 1:42 PM on February 3, 2009 [3 favorites]

A painful thought experiment might be to wonder what your internal monologue (and posting) would be if this happened at Alapine.
posted by vapidave at 1:29 PM

Yes, if a lesbian I had never met accidentally shot her wife, I would react the same way. I don't gauge my goodness as a person by my ability to overreact to the traumatic events that happen every single day. I also don't understand why you think I would value a lesbian over a Christian straight woman, because I've said anything to indicate that I would. I would probably find this situation more tragic, if only because the inhabitants of Alapine are older. And the idea that a young woman dying is more tragic than an old is MY thing, my unexamined quirk. It may not jibe with what other mefites believe, but I'd let them express their particular set of ideas about death.

I do not tear my hair out over these things, even when they are big events like a tsunami or a terrorist attack, because I know the grief of strangers is entirely worthless. Large events differ in that strangers can render material aid (donations, etc), whereas in this case, nothing much useful can be done. I'm sorry that this shooting has affected some Mefites deeply, possibly because it reminds them of similar tragedies in their own lives, but I don't know what else to say. People do tell jokes in the wake of unfortunate events, and I really wonder if some of the commenters here have told jokes verbally they'd never write on the internet.

I have no idea what challops are, either, but I'm sure klangklangston will enlighten me.
posted by ShameSpiral at 1:43 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

teh epic fail
posted by Damn That Television at 1:43 PM on February 3, 2009

and I really wonder if some of the commenters here have told jokes verbally they'd never write on the internet.

See, there's this funny thing about the internet -- you can't always control who is going to see your joke. Especially if it's on a totally public website. And, I know this comes as a shock to some people, but in 2009? The majority of people, even people whose politics and level of education you don't respect, use the fucking internet.

Her family could very easily read everything that was written in response to the death. In fact, it's probably best to assume that they will.

If you would defend your comments to their face, then I guess you can stand behind what you've written. But to pretend like you're telling jokes in a private club somewhere in supercomputersmartgeniusville is really inaccurate.

You said that the grief of strangers doesn't help anyone. Maybe the grief doesn't, but the empathy of strangers for another's grief sure does help. And, by that same token, callous indifference or the active bigotry of strangers hurts like hell when you've lost a loved one.
posted by peggynature at 1:49 PM on February 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

This is a non-issue. ShameSpiral, I think you must have missed the multitude of comments that were not jokes but dead-serious bigoted anti-redneck and anti-american slurs and rants after that first one. The jokes were not even particularly tasteless, they were just meh. The thread got deleted because of the bloodylipped hatred. Read it again and take a chillax pillax my ninja.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:51 PM on February 3, 2009

I say we keep this peggy person and dump the other dude.

All Old MeFites in favor say, "Aye."
posted by eyeballkid at 1:51 PM on February 3, 2009

See, there's this funny thing about the internet -- you can't always control who is going to see your joke. Especially if it's on a totally public website. And, I know this comes as a shock to some people, but in 2009? The majority of people, even people whose politics and level of education you don't respect

I have never, either in the original thread or here, made a disparaging remark about the politics, education, religion, etcetera of these people. I made a reference to the Bill of Rights in the original thread, which was intended to highlight what I felt was the frivolous nature of this woman's attitude to guns.

I do not believe that one family's private grief is so enormous that it should extend over the entire internet. People have the right to express their opinions on current news stories, even if those stories are horrible for one family. Her blog is a different matter, yes, but I feel it is her family's/friends' responsibility.
posted by ShameSpiral at 1:57 PM on February 3, 2009

Because I temper my justice with mercy, CHALLOPS are CHALLENGING OPINIONS.
posted by klangklangston at 2:04 PM on February 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

"All Old MeFites in favor say, "Aye.""

As the "oldest" non-mod 'MeFite' in this thread I say: you kids shut your noise before I come in there and knock your heads together!

Dagnabbit.
posted by Catch at 2:07 PM on February 3, 2009

Because I temper my justice with mercy, CHALLOPS are CHALLENGING OPINIONS

Perhaps if you didn't pepper your posts with internet slang and personal linguistic idiosyncrasies, I would understand you better. I guess CHALLOPS is pretty obvious in hindsight, but I am being addressed by a number of other posters, so have limited time to allot to each individual post.
posted by ShameSpiral at 2:07 PM on February 3, 2009

SS that was not directed at you. It was a comment addressed more to the community at large. Sorry for the lack of clarity. But thanks I guess for the response.

Flame on you crazy snowflake. This is better than Judge Judy and office politics with extra cheese.
posted by vapidave at 2:13 PM on February 3, 2009

"Perhaps if you didn't pepper your posts with internet slang and personal linguistic idiosyncrasies, I would understand you better. I guess CHALLOPS is pretty obvious in hindsight, but I am being addressed by a number of other posters, so have limited time to allot to each individual post."

I imagine you with a little chess timer, tapping with each comment read.

Maybe if you weren't trying to get out of your hole by digging more, you could luxuriate in the "personal linguistic idiosyncrasies" of the thread. Please to enjoy more CHALLOPS.
posted by klangklangston at 2:20 PM on February 3, 2009

Step1: I say something I think is snark-tastic.

Step 2: Large dark brown cumulonimbus clouds begin to gather.

Step 3: Rather than pull out an umbrella and fight the shit storm with more insults and rationalizations, try your best to own up to the mistake and apologize.

Step 4: Get a sense of humor and Move on.

Step 5: Appreciate the Irony that's it's ME saying this.
posted by tkchrist at 12:56 PM on February 3 [1 favorite +] Adding... [!]

tkchrist: I seem to have stalled somewhere between step 3 and 4 - sorry about laying into you last week. I was a bit cranky.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 2:23 PM on February 3, 2009

Let's sing Kumbaya now.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:26 PM on February 3, 2009

"Jane you ignorant slut"






(This thread is closed to new comments)
posted by vapidave at 2:28 PM on February 3, 2009

Maybe if you weren't trying to get out of your hole by digging more, you could luxuriate in the "personal linguistic idiosyncrasies" of the thread.

I have not resiled from the opinions expressed in my very first post, only apologized repeatedly for the somewhat florid tone. I do not care how you picture me, nor do I care that you're unable to accept that the (linguistic) misunderstandings between us have been caused by your own odd way of self-expression.

I have attempted to respond to posters who seem to be making genuine arguments, for example to peggynature.
posted by ShameSpiral at 2:34 PM on February 3, 2009

"I have not resiled from the opinions expressed in my very first post, only apologized repeatedly for the somewhat florid tone. I do not care how you picture me, nor do I care that you're unable to accept that the (linguistic) misunderstandings between us have been caused by your own odd way of self-expression."

Well, see, here's the thing—I say that you're trying to get out of a hole by digging further, and you say that you haven't resiled from your opinions (how oft pretensions stoke the kell of archaic prose!). That's not a misunderstanding caused by my idiosyncratic lexicon—I'm alluding to a fairly well-known idiom. That's me saying one thing, and you saying the exact same thing as if it's a disagreement. I know that you haven't retreated from your positions, but rather persist in a wrong-headed defense.

So, no, it's not my "odd way of self-expression" (using internet slang on the internet! OH NOES!). It's that you're not as clever as you think you are.
posted by klangklangston at 2:45 PM on February 3, 2009

"stoke the kell" is pretty odd. Just saying.
posted by Catch at 2:51 PM on February 3, 2009

(It's also a self-consciously archaic permutation of a phrase that I thought should be readily apparent enough.)
posted by klangklangston at 2:54 PM on February 3, 2009

It's that you're not as clever as you think you are.

Like that argument ever works...
posted by Ogre Lawless at 2:57 PM on February 3, 2009

Digging a hole, where I come from, suggests that one searches deeper for new defences or attempts modifies one's argument subtly (therefore, it's akin to digging, an active process which changes the landscape). I haven't done that - merely restated my opinion, sometimes with clarifications sought by other posters, and argued against false characterizations of my position (for example, peggynature's claim that I had somehow disparaged the dead woman's social status). Obviously, the idiom has different nuances where you are.

Anyway, idiom is a vibrant and ever-changing thing - languagehat told me so, some months before he called me a dick.
posted by ShameSpiral at 2:58 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

Mashup challenge.
It's also a self-consciously archaic permutation of a phrase that I thought should be readily apparent enough.... you're not as clever as you think you are.
posted by Catch at 3:06 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

for example, peggynature's claim that I had somehow disparaged the dead woman's social status

Ah-ah, I never said you personally had disparaged her social status. My intention was to point out to you, and to everyone involved in the thread, whether they agree with the family's politics/religion/education or not, that lots and lots and lots of different kinds of people with different backgrounds use the internet in these here modern times, and are likely to stumble upon things said about them.
posted by peggynature at 3:11 PM on February 3, 2009

I never said it was the 'great zing of all time'. I merely said I didn't regret having written it. Whether it deserves to be regarded as noise would be up to the moderators.

This isn't really how metafilter works as a whole. The 'I can post what I like and let the mods decide / clean up after me' attitude isn't really how the majority of posters operate here. Instead we choose to take ownership of our comments from the start and try to post stuff that the moderators don't have to look over and second guess. Not having comments deleted is the goal (not for everyone of course, but I'd say for most). This is why the level of discourse here is so good I think, thoughtful people posting responsibly, and also why this site is lightly moderated as a whole. Maybe view of things is naive or overly cheery but that thread really was below the usual standard of what I'd expect from round here and I was disappointed.

So if you're posting something that you think is probably noise, is going to be flagged or is likely to be deleted then don't assume the mods will sort it out, think again and don't.
posted by shelleycat at 3:11 PM on February 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

Maybe view of things is naive or overly cheery

That should say: "maybe MY view of things is naive or overly cheery" which is probably an important point to clarify.
posted by shelleycat at 3:13 PM on February 3, 2009

I think you should back of a bit klangklangston. I think ShameSpiral is presenting her case compellingly and in a coherent manner. Sit back for a couple hours and formulate your arguments better before coming back.
posted by Catfry at 3:14 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

Well, if anyone knows when it's appropriate to call someone a dick, it's going to be the guy who wrote a book about cursing. So maybe take that to heart.
posted by chiababe at 3:16 PM on February 3, 2009

I never said you personally had disparaged her social status.

Yes, you did. Read the comment again. It's in response to something I said, and there is no clear distinction between the 'you' that's allegedly directed to all and sundry and the 'you' that refers to me. If you didn't intend the whole post to be directed at me, you went about it the wrong way.
posted by ShameSpiral at 3:16 PM on February 3, 2009

No.
posted by peggynature at 3:17 PM on February 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

So if you're posting something that you think is probably noise, is going to be flagged or is likely to be deleted then don't assume the mods will sort it out, think again and don't.

I didn't think it was noise, someone else did. I was trying to point out that neither of us is really qualified to make that judgement, mods are. Of course I try to post things I think will stay up, and I thought that my rueful piece of black humor (which may actually have been an incredibly offensive slam on a deceased person - opinions differ) was not noise.

Also, I can't believe that someone read through all the way from that post to here.

Well, if anyone knows when it's appropriate to call someone a dick, it's going to be the guy who wrote a book about cursing.

He could have at least translated into Swahili or somesuch. I've been a hat fan for years, it some ways it IS kind of an honor.

I think you should back of a bit klangklangston. I think ShameSpiral is presenting her case compellingly and in a coherent manner. Sit back for a couple hours and formulate your arguments better before coming back.

Yeah, I never thought it would come to this. I know my original post was inflammatory, but I really, genuinely believe that there was an overreaction. It's not that I enjoy being ornery, I think there is a genuine alternative case to be made. I also don't think my own comments in the original thread were so bad. But I have not protested against the deletion of the thread. Thank you for your support.
posted by ShameSpiral at 3:28 PM on February 3, 2009

Let's sing Kumbaya now.
posted by Meatbomb at 4:26 PM on February 3 [+] [!]

Occasionally I wake up and realize that some totems have remained unexamined. I guess I understand the meaning of Kumbaya from the context it's typically used in. I took a look and found that that opinions differ but I mostly understood.
While traipsing around the internet in my investigation I tripped and hit my head on A Charlie Brown Heavy Metal Christmas and was happier.

I'm going to the store, anyone need anything?
posted by vapidave at 3:42 PM on February 3, 2009

Yes, you did. Read the comment again. It's in response to something I said...

It is not unheard of for people to quote something as a way to provide a bit of context for a tangential comment. That way, the comment won't seem as random in a somewhat busy thread.
posted by CKmtl at 3:44 PM on February 3, 2009

I'm going to the store, anyone need anything?

More ice cream.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:51 PM on February 3, 2009

It is not unheard of for people to quote something as a way to provide a bit of context for a tangential comment. That way, the comment won't seem as random in a somewhat busy thread.

You've quoted me very selectively. I did not say that the post was about me just because it's in response to something I wrote. The 'you' in the last paragraph ('You said that the grief of strangers doesn't help anyone') is clearly me as an individual, because she quotes something I wrote. If peggynature thinks that you can address a number of unspecified people as 'you', then make 'you' mean a specific person without indicating that any change in meaning has occurred, she is wrong.
posted by ShameSpiral at 3:51 PM on February 3, 2009

FOR GOD'S SAKE, THE LADY SAID MORE ICE CREAM
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:01 PM on February 3, 2009 [3 favorites]

The 'you' in the last paragraph ('You said that the grief of strangers doesn't help anyone') is clearly me as an individual, because she quotes something I wrote. If peggynature thinks that you can address a number of unspecified people as 'you', then make 'you' mean a specific person without indicating that any change in meaning has occurred, she is wrong.

Who's on first, again?
posted by The Light Fantastic at 4:05 PM on February 3, 2009

Is this some kind of evil-twin-Ethereal-Bligh performance art? If it is, bravo! I kind of miss that guy.
posted by eyeballkid at 4:08 PM on February 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

Yo, fuckos,

It is time to sing Kumbaya and eat ice cream. Don't make me close this thread.
posted by Meatbomb at 4:12 PM on February 3, 2009

well that's 5 1/2 hours of raging against the internet.. only 48 more to go to get the medal.
posted by edgeways at 4:19 PM on February 3, 2009

People, even I'm tired of being here. Geez.
posted by shitstorm at 4:20 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

I did not say that the post was about me just because it's in response to something I wrote.

You may not have intended that, but that's how it seemed to me. Because I took the bit about the personal and general 'you's as referring to the general second-person singular/plural problem of English, not to specific instances that peggynature used.

The nicer way of dealing with having such misunderstandings pointed out around here is to say "Ah, sorry. I misunderstood you", not engaging yes-you-did no-I-didn't did-so! spats. So:

Ah, sorry. I misunderstood you.
posted by CKmtl at 4:21 PM on February 3, 2009

well that's 5 1/2 hours of raging against the internet.. only 48 more to go to get the medal.
posted by edgeways at 4:19 PM on February 3 [+] [!]

I haven't raged, merely stated and restated my case, and refuted mischaracterizations of my position, even in the face of such eloquent rebuttals as 'No' (peggynature) or 'you are a dick' (multiple posters). I am left astonished at the furore I have touched off.

If I have the time and inclination to sit here defending my position, it's no skin off your nose.
posted by ShameSpiral at 4:27 PM on February 3, 2009

Before I post "shortershamespiral: I'm a troll," a n00b query: is "Shorter" frowned on in MeTa?
posted by Coyote Crossing at 4:45 PM on February 3, 2009

This thread reminds me of that scene in Cool Hand Luke where Luke fights the biggest guy in the prison camp and even though he is getting his ass beat he keeps getting up and going after the guy. All the other prisoners watching the fight keep saying "Just stay down" and no matter how many times I see it I'm always on the edge of my seat thinking "why does he keep getting up, the fight is over?"

This is just like that. except that scene makes me like Luke more not less each time he gets back up
posted by Bango Skank at 4:58 PM on February 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

This thread reminds me of that scene in Cool Hand Luke where Luke fights the biggest guy in the prison camp and even though he is getting his ass beat he keeps getting up and going after the guy. All the other prisoners watching the fight keep saying "Just stay down" and no matter how many times I see it I'm always on the edge of my seat thinking "why does he keep getting up, the fight is over?"

This is just like that. except that scene makes me like Luke more not less each time he gets back up

This post reminds me that I have been attempting to point out flaws I believe I can see in my opponents' arguments, while many of my opponents seem content to swear at me, call me a noob, write one word replies to my criticsm of their very vaguely written posts, or make random references to old movies.

I'm sorry you don't like me, but I wasn't aware that getting people to like you was the point of Metafilter. And I don't see how someone can be 'beaten' over an issue that, when you get right down to it, is a matter of opinion and taste more than anything.
posted by ShameSpiral at 5:05 PM on February 3, 2009

More like this?
posted by peggynature at 5:05 PM on February 3, 2009

tkchrist: I seem to have stalled somewhere between step 3 and 4 - sorry about laying into you last week. I was a bit cranky.

Laying into me? When? Man. I do not pay attention enough. On second thought don't remind me. Poor memory is a blessing.

Oh. and. If I squint my eyes juust right reading that... "Layed into me" Is that some sort of come-on? Because if it is, it worked. RAWR.
posted by tkchrist at 5:09 PM on February 3, 2009

More like this?
posted by peggynature at 5:05 PM on February 3 [+] [!]

At least the link makes it clear what your pronoun is referring to, this time.
posted by ShameSpiral at 5:17 PM on February 3, 2009

"This post reminds me that I have been attempting to point out flaws I believe I can see in my opponents' arguments, while many of my opponents seem content to swear at me, call me a noob, write one word replies to my criticsm of their very vaguely written posts, or make random references to old movies."

And this comment reminds me that you have failed the very first part of attempting to rebut "opponents": to read and understand their arguments.

But it does, again, amuse me to very little end that you're playing yourself as the victim here.

"Hey, when you make a snarky remark about a shotgun wedding and call everyone 'grief junkies,' you come across as a dick."
"How dare you call me a dick? That's beyond the pale! All I've done is lay out a rational case for why you should all be insulted! Can't you just accept my opinion?"
"You seem tone-deaf and unable to understand the social cues of this community."
"All you do is insult me and call me a n00b!"

Frankly, I think noting your relative newness is a pretty charitable explanation for your social-skills FAIL. It leaves open the possibility that at some point in the future, you'll have one of those moments of revelation and say, hey, yeah, I was being an ass and I should have listened to Will Rogers' advice: When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. (Digging here means repeating the same action that led you to be in the hole to begin with, just because I don't want another dissembling from you regarding your nuanced appreciation for idiom.)
posted by klangklangston at 5:20 PM on February 3, 2009

This is usually when someone points out that it is just a website.
posted by found missing at 5:33 PM on February 3, 2009

But it does, again, amuse me to very little end that you're playing yourself as the victim here.

No, not as the victim, just pointing out that, while I'm being called a troll, I'm not just offering random insults, but trying to respond to what others say to me. Peggynature did, I feel, misrepresent my views, deliberately or accidentally. I tried to explain why I felt this way, she said 'no' and posted a video. Okay, whatever. Feel free to call me a dick, but I know that you know that at this point there is nothing to be gained by doing so. That's all I'm trying to say.

The fact that so many Mefites (including you) have felt the need to berate me for calling them over-reactors, then come back several hours later to berate me again, supports my point - you are overreacting.

As to the question of the idiom - I'll take it to mean what I take it to mean, and you keep spelling 'Ouroboros' the way you want to spell it. Truce.
posted by ShameSpiral at 5:39 PM on February 3, 2009

"The fact that so many Mefites (including you) have felt the need to berate me for calling them over-reactors, then come back several hours later to berate me again, supports my point - you are overreacting."

No, it doesn't. You've confused support with "has nothing to do with."

And again, that you can say these things without any self-consciousness at all is amazing.

(ps. The insults aren't random. Sometimes, you're told that you're being a dick because you're acting like a dick. Or, since clearly you wilt at such language, aggressively insensitive. But they're not just random insults.)
posted by klangklangston at 5:49 PM on February 3, 2009

The insults aren't random. Sometimes, you're told that you're being a dick because you're acting like a dick. Or, since clearly you wilt at such language, aggressively insensitive. But they're not just random insults.)
posted by klangklangston at 5:49 PM on February 3 [+] [!]

I do not wilt at such language. As I said, 'feel free to call me a dick'. Just be aware it may not be a very useful tactic. That's all.
posted by ShameSpiral at 5:59 PM on February 3, 2009

languagehat told me so, some months before he called me a dick.

I did not call you a dick. I said "you're acting like a dick." I myself have acted like a dick more than once. The difference is that when called on it, I tend to retreat and possibly even apologize, unless the person calling me on it is too dickish to take seriously. Believe me, if an entire threadful of MetaTalkers was linking arms and chanting "Dick! Dick! Dick!" I'd take very seriously the possibility that I was in fact doing something amiss.

I have nothing against you aside from your bizarre insistence on the evils of empathy, and I'm glad you like my blog. But like klang and others, I think you're digging yourself into the wrong foxhole. (Woo, check that fancy mixed metaphor!)
posted by languagehat at 6:24 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

good lord lets go ahead and shut this thing up.
posted by dawson at 6:31 PM on February 3, 2009

an entire threadful of MetaTalkers was linking arms and chanting "Dick! Dick! Dick!"

So help me, if I have nightmares of playing Red Rover with Cheney, I'm coming after you.
posted by CKmtl at 6:32 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

WILL TRADE BABY HORSES 4 ICE CREAM

Just wanna be self-consciously archaic
Wanna be feared in my mefi hood
Just wanna make some moody comments
Post things that nobody will understand

I wanna be obscure and oblique
I thought it should be
Readily apparent enough
I wanna drop jaws with my great zings
Want strangers to cry when I write 'em down

I wanna be meta, old or young
Don't like my number up or where I begun
I always feel I must post things on the wall
I just can't handle it - no not at all

Why am I as clever as I think I am
I wanna post like I'm that gal Catch
Why can't I deepen with many favourites
Am I posting out of my ass

I always feel I should be outside or somethin'
I feel like that girl waiting on ice cream
They say that I should live sera sera
But I am such a lowly metafilterian

cornpopping axewielding threadbending kellstoking
cornpopping permutating, yeah

after I wanna be misunderstood by pete
posted by shoesfullofdust at 6:38 PM on February 3, 2009

I'm not your friend, guy!
posted by dawson at 6:39 PM on February 3, 2009

Believe me, if an entire threadful of MetaTalkers was linking arms and chanting "Dick! Dick! Dick!" I'd take very seriously the possibility that I was in fact doing something amiss.


The fact that the Metatalkers do this to someone whose great 'sin' is to have doubted the sincerity of their overblown grief for a person they've never met (over all the other people who died that day) is the reason I am reluctant to switch my opinion for theirs. Why do they care, seemingly quite passionately, if I think their grief is mostly something they're doing for their own good and no-one else's?

I'd don't believe empathy is evil. I don't believe in crocodile tears, either, or the flaunting of transitory and useless grief.
posted by ShameSpiral at 6:41 PM on February 3, 2009

...you say that you haven't resiled from your opinions (how oft pretensions stoke the kell of archaic prose!)

This kind of turned me on.


I am a bit drunk and thought I would share this with you all.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 6:48 PM on February 3, 2009

"I think you're digging yourself into the wrong foxhole."

Have you dug the foxhole you want to die on?

"The fact that the Metatalkers do this to someone whose great 'sin' is to have doubted the sincerity of their overblown grief for a person they've never met (over all the other people who died that day) is the reason I am reluctant to switch my opinion for theirs."

Hmm. When I'm this wrong, I find it helpful to examine my premises. What incorrect premises could be hiding in this sentence? (It's like Highlights for Logical Fallacies.)
posted by klangklangston at 7:06 PM on February 3, 2009

WHAT overblown grief? Straw man much?

"This is terrible. ... God damn shame. ... tragic ... Simply fucking stupid ... " [many, many posts about gun safety rules and how they were flagrantly, stupidly violated] ... [Pater Alethias' comment disagreeing with the Christian family's belief that this was part of God's plan -- 33 favorites] ... [link to a story of a self-inflicted but non-fatal gun wound] ...

Most comments about the woman's death reflected how shocked and angry people were about not just the carelessness displayed by the woman's husband, but by the behaviour she and the rest of her family displayed at the range. Did people also express some sadness and sympathy about her death, or concern about how her family might react to some of the harsher comments on the couple's wedding site? Yes, but that's choosing to feel some empathy in addition to anger. If you consider that assemblage of mixed reactions to be "overblown grief", you need to recalibrate.
posted by maudlin at 7:07 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

Just wanna be self-consciously archaic

Klangklangston decided my English was deliberately archaic. Your repeating the charge adds nothing to it.

Wanna be feared in my mefi hood

No, I don't want to be feared or disliked. That's why I was lamenting languagehat's reaction.

Just wanna make some moody comments
Post things that nobody will understand

I want very much to be understood. And the opinions against me have been stated with considerable certainty, so presumably the other posters believe they understand me. Klangklangston argues that he understands me better than I understand myself.


I wanna be obscure and oblique

No, I again assure you I don't.

I thought it should be
Readily apparent enough
I wanna drop jaws with my great zings
Want strangers to cry when I write 'em down

Yes, I've been accused of being a troll several times already. This is what I was trying to say earlier - I don't mind being called dick, troll, etc, but it does nothing to change my opinion. I'm trying to tell you it's fruitless - if you enjoy saying 'dick' go ahead, it doesn't make me re-consider anything.
posted by ShameSpiral at 7:10 PM on February 3, 2009

I was just going to paste that same sentence klang. It actually made my head hurt, but you missed the final part that ties it all up:

I'd don't believe empathy is evil. I don't believe in crocodile tears, either, or the flaunting of transitory and useless grief.

On preview-- pretty much what maudlin said.
posted by eyeballkid at 7:10 PM on February 3, 2009

WHAT overblown grief? Straw man much?

You're referring to the grief that was expressed in the original thread. I'm focussing more on the second run of flamboyant grief that was indulged in right here in this thread, both before and after I entered the fray.
posted by ShameSpiral at 7:15 PM on February 3, 2009

Shamespiral, I am not sure what you are trying to do here, but whatever it is, I think it's counterproductive.

Sonic has five hamburgers for $5.95 on Tuesdays...nice night to go get a bag of burgers, maybe?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:22 PM on February 3, 2009

I think you may have misunderstood my use of pronouns.
posted by shoesfullofdust at 7:22 PM on February 3, 2009

"You're referring to the grief that was expressed in the original thread. I'm focussing more on the second run of flamboyant grief that was indulged in right here in this thread, both before and after I entered the fray."

Really? Was it written in secret gray text that you have to have decoder glasses to see? And we're talking grief, here, not opprobrium or disapproval or, hell, even outrage.
posted by klangklangston at 7:26 PM on February 3, 2009

I was trying to point out that neither of us is really qualified to make that judgement, mods are.

We're big on community moderation round here. Making judgements, discussing the behaviour of other site users, hashing out the guidelines, shaping the overall culture of this site, that's stuff that everyone has equal right to have input into. 'Only the mods can decide' is again not quite how things work, although they certainly have the final say. Not that the mods have to do what we tell them, just that they have a history of being open to input and ideas from us as well as open about their decisions and actions. I like it, makes me feel like I have a stake in this community even when I don't agree with everything that happens.

So yeah, discussing what went on in that thread? One of the things metatalk is for. Getting upset that people are having that discussion or are presenting their opinion shows a lack of experience of how things work and indicate that maybe you should spend a bit more time looking around.

Also, I can't believe that someone read through all the way from that post to here.

Why not? Obsessively reading and following long threads is something many mefites are good at. It's what we do! I guarentee there are way (way) more lurkers reading everything written right here than you see commenting. This comment also makes me feel that you somehow don't quite get the culture round here yet.
posted by shelleycat at 7:27 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

God help me, but I'm agreeing with konolia here. Go take a fucking walk or something.
posted by chiababe at 7:27 PM on February 3, 2009

WHAT flamboyant grief?

"... crazy shit going down in that thread ... [peggynature trying to do something concrete and kind re getting the guestbook pulled down ] ...big, pointless cauldron of self-satisfied bile ... mean spirited vindictive crap ...Shit post with vile comments ... OP here. I thought it was a sad story made worse because of the terrible firearm discipline on display in the blog entry. ... The whole story struck me as terribly sad and if I were sitting around talking to my friends I might bring it up and we'd all nod and say "yeah sad" and maybe discuss gun policy or whatever. However in a big international community full of known, anonymous and semi-anonymous posters, it's not that surprising that the thread went south, and quickly. I personally am horrified when people make light of such a tragedy, as if bad (even stupid) things never happen to the people we personally know and love. ... Most people do stupid things and have lapses in judgment on a pretty frequent basis. Most of us are just lucky that those lapses haven't (yet) resulted in our deaths and provided amusement for the masses...."

Oh, and this is about where you stepped in:

"Maybe we should have a competition to see who is the most grief-stricken by the death of this irresponsible stranger who treated deadly firearms like toys, as did her husband and other relatives. The sanctimonious orgy of handwringing appalls me. Do you really see no difference between not being particularly affected by this woman's death and being glad she's dead? Yes, it's sad, but she has family and friends to mourn for her (and presumably one of those friends or a family member could have had the offensive comments on her blog taken down, rather than waiting for peggynature to swoop in with her superheroine costume on.)

I would never have dreamed that Metafilter was full of the same kind of grief-junkies who rushed to place flowers and teddy-bears outside the gates of various palaces when Princess Diana died (another example of a pretty young white woman whose negligence contributed to her own death.) ..."

What you wrote looks like a flamboyant accusation of grief, mourning, grief-junkie-ism and handwringing that doesn't really exist in this thread.

Really, get some burgers, some tea, some ice cream or just take a freaking walk, and recalibrate.
posted by maudlin at 7:28 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

Shamespiral, I am not sure what you are trying to do here, but whatever it is, I think it's counterproductive.

I'm hoping that someone will confess that yes, they are feeling grief for a person who is nothing to them, and that it's pointless. I'm hoping that klangklangston will explain why a woman who is just a name to him is worthy of his extravagant grief, why a stranger's dying of a gunshot wound is sadder than another stranger dying quietly in bed. Why is this death he happened to hear about in passing so important to him?

I don't eat burgers and am not in America, so don't know what Sonic is.
posted by ShameSpiral at 7:28 PM on February 3, 2009

"I'm hoping that klangklangston will explain why a woman who is just a name to him is worthy of his extravagant grief, why a stranger's dying of a gunshot wound is sadder than another stranger dying quietly in bed."

Do they use the word "grief" differently in your country? Or can you point out where, exactly, I've evidenced "extravagant grief" aside from calling you on your bullshit?
posted by klangklangston at 7:33 PM on February 3, 2009

Oh, and that's an incredibly shitty thing to say about peggynature. You may not like being criticized and disagreed with in-thread, but she stepped out and tried to do something helpful rather than just yammer on like all the rest of us. Whether or not the family of the dead woman had already tried to close the site (I doubt it, given that the damn site was still up throughout the life of the original thread), there was no harm in making an extra effort.
posted by maudlin at 7:35 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

We're big on community moderation round here.

Yes, but the mods decide what gets deleted as noise. That's all I was saying.


Really? Was it written in secret gray text that you have to have decoder glasses to see? And we're talking grief, here, not opprobrium or disapproval or, hell, even outrage.

Caring about the death of a person is grief. If you didn't care about it, there could be no disapproval or outrage. Whether that grief is disproportionate or not is a matter of opinion. In my opinion - yes, it was overblown. The fact that people had to come back for a second round of disapproval is part of what made the grief seem overblown.
posted by ShameSpiral at 7:36 PM on February 3, 2009

I'm hoping that someone will confess that yes, they are feeling grief for a person who is nothing to them, and that it's pointless.

That may be me. I've been sad about this story all day long, even though I didn't know these people and care for them only in the way I care for humans in general, sort of a nebulous "I'd really like it if everyone were okay" sort of way. But the story was sad and the resultant thread was, to me, depressing, and that in addition to this bizarre MeTa thread has been low level bumming me out all day. I honestly don't care if you think I'm overreacting, doing it to draw attention to myself, or just pointlessly caring about other people that I don't know and will never know.

I cry when I read the paper sometimes -- today there was a story about the linesmen from the local power cooperative and how they went out early on Christmas morning here in Vermont so that people would have power over the holidays, I don't know a single one of those people but it makes me happy to be human in just a teeny way -- and I guess I don't care if you don't, terribly.

Your interpretation of what other people are saying seems really affectless and strange to me, making arbitrary deep lines in the sand and putting yourself on one side and everyone else on the other. Speaking as a mod -- though really my opinion doesn't matter much more than other people in most cases around here -- it would be nice if you would leave this be and stop making this thread about you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:37 PM on February 3, 2009 [11 favorites]

Or can you point out where, exactly, I've evidenced "extravagant grief" aside from calling you on your bullshit?
posted by klangklangston at 7:33 PM on February 3 [+] [!]


Your hysterical over-reaction to 'my bullshit' certainly suggests that something about this story is troubling you to an extraordinary degree.

You may not like being criticized and disagreed with in-thread, but she stepped out and tried to do something helpful rather than just yammer on like all the rest of us.

I merely tried to point out that what people were saying to me was repetitive and offered nothing of substance to disagree with.

I'm sorry you think I was shitty to peggynature, but intervening in the affairs of strangers, unasked, is rarely a good idea. It's the family's road to travel, not peggynature's.
posted by ShameSpiral at 7:42 PM on February 3, 2009

Your hysterical over-reaction to 'my bullshit' certainly suggests that something about this story is troubling you to an extraordinary degree.

This? This is some of that amateur psychoanalysis bullshit.
posted by CKmtl at 7:45 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

So your basic argument is that people were overreacting because they found the sort of callous disregard of someone's death, regardless of the circumstances, unsavory. You've expended somewhere between thirty and forty posts over the course of more than 9 hours because some people called you a dick on the internet. Overreacting? Hmmm. That Ouroboros dig was a fresh burn, though.
posted by nanojath at 7:53 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

This? This is some of that amateur psychoanalysis bullshit.

I was unaware you were klangklangston's sockpuppet. Do you often answer for him?

'Something is troubling you' is pretty vague. I don't think it's an outrageous inference to draw.

Speaking as a mod -- though really my opinion doesn't matter much more than other people in most cases around here

I didn't say it did. I said you and the other mods were the people who had the final decision on whether to delete something. If that's wrong, I'm sorry.

it would be nice if you would leave this be and stop making this thread about you.

If you address me, I respond.
posted by ShameSpiral at 7:56 PM on February 3, 2009

I'm thinking that this really isn't about this thread or that one, shamespiral. You are overreacting in an extreme manner that mirrors what you accuse others of.

Too bad you don't live where they have Sonics. Really nice night for a drive-in burger and cherry limeade.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:56 PM on February 3, 2009

"Caring about the death of a person is grief. If you didn't care about it, there could be no disapproval or outrage. Whether that grief is disproportionate or not is a matter of opinion. In my opinion - yes, it was overblown. The fact that people had to come back for a second round of disapproval is part of what made the grief seem overblown."

Well, no, caring about someone else's death isn't grief. Being saddened by it, particularly by the loss, is grief.

So, you've got a faulty definition of grief, an inability to gauge normal reaction (shown by your repeated insistence that this is "overblown"), and a conflation of disapproval as grief.

Basically, you're like, hmm, I think I'll have some Wrongflakes and some Wrongjuice, maybe some Wrongtoast with Wrongbutter, a glass of Wrongmilk… A complete Wrongfast to start your thread. Mmm… Wrongflakes.
posted by klangklangston at 7:56 PM on February 3, 2009

You've expended somewhere between thirty and forty posts over the course of more than 9 hours because some people called you a dick on the internet.

My time costs me nothing, and I have been as calm and polite as is reasonable, after my initial outburst.

That Ouroboros dig was a fresh burn, though.

Thank you. I'm glad you liked it. Of course, it was only because another poster pointed it out that I even noticed. I wonder what grudge THAT poster has against klangklangston?
posted by ShameSpiral at 7:59 PM on February 3, 2009

Well, fuck. Klang, our ruse has been discover'd.
posted by CKmtl at 8:01 PM on February 3, 2009

"Your hysterical over-reaction to 'my bullshit' certainly suggests that something about this story is troubling you to an extraordinary degree."

And tell me, Doktor, what exactly makes you suspect hysteria? That I called you a dick? That I said "bullshit"?

"I merely tried to point out that what people were saying to me was repetitive and offered nothing of substance to disagree with."

If I might, for a moment—you, saying this, does seem to imply that you were too stupid to understand what people were saying. Have you had any recent brain damage? I think you'll find that we're all hysterically compassionate folks.

"If you address me, I respond."

Oh, the bottomless sorrow of being beholden to forces one doesn't understand.
posted by klangklangston at 8:02 PM on February 3, 2009

OCD? OCD? is it OCD? I have OCD also and I'm betting it's OCD!
posted by dawson at 8:02 PM on February 3, 2009

"My time costs me nothing, and I have been as calm and polite as is reasonable, after my initial outburst."

Oh, that you were only a little more rude and a little less stupid.

"Thank you. I'm glad you liked it. Of course, it was only because another poster pointed it out that I even noticed. I wonder what grudge THAT poster has against klangklangston?"

hee hatexz teh wai i speel

Well, fuck. Klang, our ruse has been discover'd.

Ckmtl, here, while I'm awake? The serum must be more potent than I thought!
posted by klangklangston at 8:05 PM on February 3, 2009

So, you've got a faulty definition of grief, an inability to gauge normal reaction (shown by your repeated insistence that this is "overblown"), and a conflation of disapproval as grief.

No, I said the disapproval arose from the grief (or, if you prefer, the caring). You only disapprove of someone 'disrespecting' the dead if you care somewhat about that dead person. You wouldn't care if someone burlesqued the assassination of Caesar, because you have no emotional connection to it.

Well, fuck. Klang, our ruse has been discover'd.

Well, you did answer for him.

If I might, for a moment—you, saying this, does seem to imply that you were too stupid to understand what people were saying.

No, if someone says 'you're a dick' or 'you're a troll', it's easy to understand. I just don't understand why people think it becomes more effective when endlessly repeated.
posted by ShameSpiral at 8:10 PM on February 3, 2009

hee hatexz teh wai i speel

I attempted to let that matter lie. Another poster brought it up again.
posted by ShameSpiral at 8:12 PM on February 3, 2009

Yes, but the mods decide what gets deleted as noise.

Sure, after weighing up a range of input including flags, emails, metatalk posts and metatalk comments. So actually, if I think your comment is noise or a thread is shit then I can tell the mods this and ask them to delete it. Fairly often (assuming enough of us ask) they will. Also if I disapprove of comments on this site then a metatalk callout is entirely appropriate, as is expressing my disapproval in a thread such as this one.

Then you came along and posted this (plus a few other comments along these lines):

Yes, that's why those posters were berated in the thread and the thread then deleted. To go on and use a metatalk thread as a forum in which everyone can re-state their opposition to the 'bad' comments in that thread is both redundant and self-righteous.

Metatalk actually IS the appropriate forum for stating our opposition (or approval of) the comments in that, or any, thread. And having a thread deleted because we all pointed out it's shittyness to the mods is also one of the things that happens here. So the posters coming here and doing so aren't participating in some overflow of grief or whatever, simply using the site as it is designed to be used.

So yeah, I find it a bit confusing that you've attributed all these outside motivations to commenters here when they're behaving in a manner totally normal for this part of the site. You're reading too much into, well, something, it's thrown off your starting assumptions, and the rest of the crap seems to have flowed on from there. This is why people are telling you to chill, your whole stance seems weird to someone with more experience of how things go round here.

Anyway. I need to go home. I have cat pictures to inundate cortex with.
posted by shelleycat at 8:21 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

If you address me, I respond.

This, followed without restraint, is an obnoxious habit very much worth getting out of. It's an understandable reaction, especially on the short term and in the heat of the moment, but at this point your dedication to taking on all comers in this thread has gotten pretty silly.

You can keep at it—god knows we don't consider low-level self-satified obnoxiousness a bannable offense around here—or you can let this thing drop. If you have any goal for your time on Metafilter other than establishing yourself as The Guy Who Can't Stop Arguing For The Sake Of Arguing, I'd really, really strongly encourage you do the latter.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:21 PM on February 3, 2009 [3 favorites]

cherry limeade

Does that have cheery AND lime flavour? Because that's awful. Or awesome. Not sure which.
posted by shelleycat at 8:23 PM on February 3, 2009

Sorry for the delay Jessamyn, I was waylaid en route. Here is the ice cream, I thought you might like chocolate. Oh, and here is the spoon.
Please enjoy.
posted by vapidave at 8:30 PM on February 3, 2009

"I attempted to let that matter lie. Another poster brought it up again."

Yeah, um, because I'm not a total dweeb, I'm able to make fun of myself and not have it be a big deal. AM I BLOWING YOUR MIND?

"No, I said the disapproval arose from the grief (or, if you prefer, the caring). You only disapprove of someone 'disrespecting' the dead if you care somewhat about that dead person. You wouldn't care if someone burlesqued the assassination of Caesar, because you have no emotional connection to it."

And you're wrong again. Are you in the FAILympics?

Start with this: What other possible motivations could there be for finding your comments distasteful?
posted by klangklangston at 8:32 PM on February 3, 2009

Metatalk actually IS the appropriate forum for stating our opposition (or approval of) the comments in that, or any, thread. And having a thread deleted because we all pointed out it's shittyness to the mods is also one of the things that happens here.

It was the self-righteous and mutually congratulatory nature of the comments that burned me most.
posted by ShameSpiral at 8:33 PM on February 3, 2009

It was the self-righteous and mutually congratulatory nature of the comments that burned me most.

hummm
posted by dawson at 8:46 PM on February 3, 2009

Start with this: What other possible motivations could there be for finding your comments distasteful?

Well, you might not want to be reminded of the death of someone close to you, and be pretending it was concern for the dead woman, which would be dishonest.

You might have shot someone yourself and not want to be reminded of it, which would be selfishly desiring others to unknowingly pander to your very unusual history.

You might be altruistically hoping to stop others from being reminded of loved ones' deaths, but they should presumably be able to handle this themselves.

I can't think what else. Given that you're so smart, perhaps you could enlighten me?
posted by ShameSpiral at 8:54 PM on February 3, 2009

How about an interest in the level of discourse in the community? That's one of myriad reasons. Perhaps if you're not bright enough to think of that on your own, you should comment less and lurk more.
posted by klangklangston at 9:08 PM on February 3, 2009

How about an interest in the level of discourse in the community? That's one of myriad reasons. Perhaps if you're not bright enough to think of that on your own, you should comment less and lurk more.

That seems a fairly weak explanation for the frenetic way you've responded to me, as does any altruistic motive. I genuinely believe that my 'heartless' comments are causing some episode from your own history to flash vividly on the psychic screen, in a way that the other more anodyne comments don't. I know that this is really taking the armchair psychologizing to the limit, but I'm at a loss to explain it otherwise. I really do not understand why you are so crazily passionate about this. Maybe we both have the various psychological disorders I've been diagnosed with by various commenters.
posted by ShameSpiral at 9:14 PM on February 3, 2009

In the past 5 hours I went out on a date and it was pretty nice, we saw the Notorious B.I.G. movie and it was actually really good and we held hands when he got shot.

My point is...I don't have a point actually I just wanted to brag someplace where nobody was paying attention.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:31 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

"I genuinely believe that my 'heartless' comments are causing some episode from your own history to flash vividly on the psychic screen, in a way that the other more anodyne comments don't. I know that this is really taking the armchair psychologizing to the limit, but I'm at a loss to explain it otherwise. I really do not understand why you are so crazily passionate about this. Maybe we both have the various psychological disorders I've been diagnosed with by various commenters."

Hmm. So, instead of realizing, "Hey, maybe he's just making fun of me because I'm clueless and obnoxious," you've constructed an elaborate psychological fantasy that involves some vague "episode" from my past to be relived. Yeah, that's certainly more plausible than my calling you out for being a dick because I think you're being a dick. I mean, especially given my history here on the site, where I'd never argue about something I don't even really care that much about.

I'm sorry, that's fucking moronic.
posted by klangklangston at 9:32 PM on February 3, 2009

Besides, I just
posted by klangklangston at 9:33 PM on February 3, 2009

want
posted by klangklangston at 9:33 PM on February 3, 2009

200!
posted by klangklangston at 9:33 PM on February 3, 2009

As I began to read this thread I was thinking to myself, "Man, this is exactly the kind of crap I do not want to involve myself in." But I'm listening to some tunes; wasting some hours because it's way too early to even try sleeping yet. I was starting to lose interest, but wait - someone just used the word "resiled". Red flags - this may go somewhere even stupider. And it didn't take long for that thing that goes clang clang clang to stoke the kell. Oh yeah, this kind of turned me on too. Talk of ice cream can also excite me.

So I keep reading, now thinking to myself, "Man, I wanna be like that. Get the words on. And zing zing! I wanna be cool. I want people to respond, to flirt and argue with me. Cool Hand Luke. Yeah, just like that." Wait! What? No, no, no. I don't want that. I do but I don't. My inexecrably slow typing speed usually keeps me out of most trouble.

Then, just when Second Hand Love (the version with the horn section) started playing, Catch threw down a challenge.

For some reason, at this point the thread is reminding me of this page. Someone uses the word "misunderstood" and I think, "Oh yeah, ol' pete nows how I feel." And someone who may be found or missing helpfully reminds me that this is just a website.

In the mashup of snippets from this thread and the song that I posted, the "I" refers to me and it is a feeble attempt to relate my feelings about my participation here - the lure of cool and the dread of misunderstanding.

And there ya go. Misunderstood.

I ain't got no dog in this fight, but I would gladly trade baby horses for ice cream.
posted by shoesfullofdust at 9:37 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

Hmm. So, instead of realizing, "Hey, maybe he's just making fun of me because I'm clueless and obnoxious," you've constructed an elaborate psychological fantasy that involves some vague "episode" from my past to be relived. Yeah, that's certainly more plausible than my calling you out for being a dick because I think you're being a dick. I mean, especially given my history here on the site, where I'd never argue about something I don't even really care that much about.

I've been made fun of before. I've never seen anything like the berserker transformation that seems to have overtaken you at various points in this long conversation. I'm glad you think that spending hours screaming at me is somehow less strange because you're doing it for essentially no reason, rather than out of the deep convictions I had credited you with. I acknowledged that I was going way out on a limb with my posited explanation, but when you see something unlike anything you've ever seen before, you're forced to cobble together whatever theory you can. You're like a platypus to an early settler. I'm forced to account for you.

I'm not very aware of your history on this site. You're not the center of everyone's world, Katie! But you admit to enjoying an argument, which makes me think you can't be really displeased with me for supplying one.
posted by ShameSpiral at 9:41 PM on February 3, 2009

Awww, y'all are just like Kim and Biggie.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:49 PM on February 3, 2009

"I'm glad you think that spending hours screaming at me is somehow less strange because you're doing it for essentially no reason, rather than out of the deep convictions I had credited you with."

See, again, the problem is your projections: I'm not actually screaming at you. This whole freakout you think I'm having? It's just like the "hysterical" "grief" you keep seeing. It's a figment of your imagination. The call is coming from inside your house.

(And as to my history here, well, yeah, that you're totally fucking clueless about the culture here is apparent. But OH NOES someone might call you a N00B and you would be offended!)
posted by klangklangston at 9:56 PM on February 3, 2009

Anyway, I finished the music I'm reviewing, played as much Scrabble as I need to, and am now off to read some Catwoman.
posted by klangklangston at 10:02 PM on February 3, 2009

See, again, the problem is your projections: I'm not actually screaming at you. This whole freakout you think I'm having? It's just like the "hysterical" "grief" you keep seeing. It's a figment of your imagination. The call is coming from inside your house.

(And as to my history here, well, yeah, that you're totally fucking clueless about the culture here is apparent. But OH NOES someone might call you a N00B and you would be offended!)

Well, if this has been your version of calm and rational, it's certainly different from what I'm used to. I guess some folks are just high-strung. Extremely high-strung. No-one's blamin' ya.

As to being unaware of your history - I've lurked on Metafilter for years. I'm very familiar with many members and what they do. I guess you just haven't said anything that caught my interest.

As for being clueless about the 'culture' here, I'll readily admit it. I never realized that it was so Byzantine and incestuous, so status-conscious. It's fascinating - someone should do an FPP about it! This thread has opened my eyes a great deal.

I'm sorry that whatever nerve I touched is still smarting. I'll try to avoid it in future, which will be very boring, but it seems I misjudged the level of openness at this site. After this thread, I shall be as decorous as a Victorian maiden. I still think there's something weird going on with the way you people reacted, though.
posted by ShameSpiral at 10:12 PM on February 3, 2009

Best Bragging in an Unrelated Thread
posted by shoesfullofdust at 10:15 PM on February 3, 2009

After this thread, I shall be as decorous as a Victorian maiden.

More power to you. This thread sure isn't going anywhere that justifies the chance of waking up to a mess tomorrow, so any further at-length stressing of just how little anyone cares about an hours-long argument compared to anyone else involved in said argument will have to take place elsewhere.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:16 PM on February 3, 2009