Popbitch September 14, 2009 9:30 AM   Subscribe

Did we really need to delete this FPP just because various defenders of MeFis indie street cred shat in this thread and presumably flagged it a lot? That's kind of a shame, because other people were enjoying it.
posted by Artw to MetaFilter-Related at 9:30 AM (340 comments total) 6 users marked this as a favorite

Ha ha! You watch television!
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:33 AM on September 14, 2009 [10 favorites]


Go here, Artw - this will satisfy all your current pop culture discussion needs. Clearly you think that this is what Metafilter is for, but I disagree. I have indie sensibilities and absolutely love celebrity/pop culture gossip, but I don't think that is what Metafilter does best.
posted by pinky at 9:34 AM on September 14, 2009


I have to agree. I don't care about the topic myself, but it doesn't seem any more deleteworthy than a zillion other posts I don't care about. "Entertainment news"? So what? A whole lot of the blue consists of entertainment news.
posted by languagehat at 9:37 AM on September 14, 2009 [14 favorites]


(Er, I mean I agree with Artw.)
posted by languagehat at 9:37 AM on September 14, 2009


I'd much rather entertainment news than every US political blip.
posted by cillit bang at 9:39 AM on September 14, 2009


I'd much rather entertainment news than every US political blip.

You say this as if they were different things.
posted by joe lisboa at 9:39 AM on September 14, 2009 [18 favorites]


I didn't see the post but was waiting for someone to post something about it. Ridiculous as it sounds, I thought it was a rather touchstone moment in pop culture. It's one of the few entertainment related things that made my jaw drop. I pretty much had the same reaction to Kanye that I (and Nancy Pelosi) had to Joe Wilson.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 9:41 AM on September 14, 2009


I flagged it. It was not a good post, as much as I was enjoying the discussion...
posted by kathrineg at 9:41 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


I agree with languagehat agreeing with Artw.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:44 AM on September 14, 2009


I agree with languagehat and Artw, and also don't give a shit about the issue. The principle, though, is don't shit all over threads with your lazy, "ironic", jaded, boring, navelgazing hipster crap.

oh I know no no hipsters on mefi are actually hipsters, because that would mean they do not have their precious snowflake ideas all to their very own moleskines. But the fact remains, there is a pretty obvious, and increasingly, loud, cabal of hispters who shout down anything they deem (individually! of course!!!) unworthy of the cool street cred of which they are the self-appointed guardians. Less boundary maintenance, folks, and more moving on.
posted by Rumple at 9:45 AM on September 14, 2009 [12 favorites]


It's the most basic links to a news story that is almost literally everywhere today (1,865 Google News links currently) and not especially important and very probably a PR stunt and this post digs out nothing new or less-known. Maybe none of those is a good reason for deletion on its own, but in combination, definitely.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 9:45 AM on September 14, 2009 [7 favorites]


I don't think the subject itself wasn't FPP-worthy, but the post was somewhat slight.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:46 AM on September 14, 2009


I'd like to see an alphabet thread where every post starts with "I"
posted by Rumple at 9:46 AM on September 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


this could have been an interesting FPP if kanye's past antics had been included, or disruptions of the VMAs in general had been the topic. if the person posting it had really taken the time to consider "how can i make this different than just a perez hilton/tmz/huffpo/gawker post?" things might have turned out better. sadly, they just took the front page news of every gossip blog and moved it to the blue. this does not a good FFP make.
posted by nadawi at 9:46 AM on September 14, 2009 [8 favorites]


To my eyes, the first person who shat in the thread was you, Artw.
posted by pinky at 9:47 AM on September 14, 2009


To my eyes, the first person who shat in the thread was you, Artw.

In what way?
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:48 AM on September 14, 2009


He knocked the Taylor Swift video
posted by kathrineg at 9:49 AM on September 14, 2009


Well, I thought it was interesting.
posted by bz at 9:49 AM on September 14, 2009


"Entertainment news"? So what? A whole lot of the blue consists of entertainment news.

Yes, but they're posted in the form of totally non-mawkish and emotionally moving obituaries. For the piece of Taylor Swift's innocence that died last night, I offer:

.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:52 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Why did you feel the need to ad hominem everyone who flagged it?
posted by kathrineg at 9:53 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Yes, actually, it was harming our indie street cred.
posted by jeffamaphone at 9:53 AM on September 14, 2009


I am quite annoyed that the Kanye/Taylor Swift thing is going to get all the replays and not Beyonce's incredible live performance...or even Lady Gaga's WTF seppuku

By the way, who else wanted to give Jay-Z a nice mug of tea? His voice sounded awful. Must've worn it out at his excellent tribute concert on 9/11
posted by kathrineg at 9:54 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


...totally non-mawkish and emotionally...

Holy Webster! Mawkish is the word I've been searching for all my life. *swoon*
posted by jeffamaphone at 9:55 AM on September 14, 2009


Artw, you seem to have a strange definition of the word "enjoy'. Most of the thread is just throwaway one line snarking.

Also... MTV? Yeah, it's everywhere. It's not unique or rare or interesting. And the whole setup is a publicity stunt for Kanye and all those attention-seekers. It's all a game to get mindshare. You think they're actually fighting and playing each other? The only people they're playing are the consumers of their product who think it's real.

These things are more choreographed than pro wrestling.

Meh. At least the Romans used bread and circuses. These days we're told to shut up and be thankful when we just get a half-assed clown show.
posted by loquacious at 9:56 AM on September 14, 2009 [7 favorites]


The post was basically -- did you see what was on tv last night?

Someone should re-do it in the context of other stage invasions at various award shows (ie, Jarvis Cocker + Michael Jackson)
posted by empath at 9:57 AM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Am I a bad person for imagining various scenarios in which all attendees at the MTV awards are mercilessly slaughtered. It's pretty pedestrian stuff, really. Bulldozers, flaming arrows, WWII fighter planes strafing everyone with machine guns, the RCMH slowly flooding with everyone trapped inside, rabid packs of wolves, usual stuff. None of it involves explosions or anything that might guarantee quick death. The more screaming and panic the better. At the end, Lady Gaga will the the last one standing on a pile of corpses, looking unfazed just as a large ceiling beam falls and neatly bifurcates her so that two bloody halves fall on opposite sides of the pile of corpses. That's healthy, yes?
posted by Burhanistan at 9:58 AM on September 14, 2009 [5 favorites]


I'd like to see an alphabet thread where every post starts with "I"

I, on the other hand, think this would be a terrible idea, in that it would be completely destructive to any semblance of an ordered conversation.
posted by quin at 9:58 AM on September 14, 2009


I agree with quin.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:00 AM on September 14, 2009


I am pretty sure that every year before the VMAs, MTV does some careful research into what decisions will piss off Kanye the most, and then for three hours before the show they give him free martinis with angry hornets mixed in.
posted by Metroid Baby at 10:02 AM on September 14, 2009 [24 favorites]


Yeah, it's everywhere.

I just saw it here. I saw the Kanye/Obama mash-up linked on Graham Linehan's Twitter before that, and didn't know the context. Because I am way awesome and don't hardly never have my teevee on.

Regardless, since when has ubiquity been a make-or-break for FPPs?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:02 AM on September 14, 2009


That's healthy, yes?

I'd rather see Lady Gaga tear off her flesh-like plastic covering and reveal the terrifying chrome robot endoskeleton beneath just before whipping into a blur of deadly high speed gymnastics and whirling knives. No wolves required.
posted by loquacious at 10:05 AM on September 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


Regardless, since when has ubiquity been a make-or-break for FPPs?

It's not about ubiquity, it's about taste.
posted by loquacious at 10:07 AM on September 14, 2009


I interpreted ArtW's comment ("Gosh, classy.") as a dig at Kanye's stunt, not the post itself.
posted by rtha at 10:09 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Seems like a slippery slope to me. Celebrity gossip news we don't need. Look at all of the quality posts on the front page. Surely there are sites that can meet your "Entertainment Tonight" sorts of needs.
posted by y6y6y6 at 10:09 AM on September 14, 2009


Ridiculous as it sounds, I thought it was a rather touchstone moment in pop culture.

Exactly. I barely know who Kanye is and never heard of the winning chick, but clearly this was a Moment, and therefore worthy of posting. Walking to work this morning, I couldn't get over how everyone on the street appeared to be talking about it.

Also it was a shame to have to post the excellent mashup at the bottom of the 450-comment Joe Wilson thread, where only loons like ericb and I, who hang out posting links at the bottom of political threads, will ever see it.
posted by CunningLinguist at 10:12 AM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


Is this where we talk about the True Blood finale?
posted by The Whelk at 10:12 AM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


I agree with you, yesyesyes you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:13 AM on September 14, 2009


I think that if this is considered some kind of touchstone moment then people need to get better moments, or better stones. Or start throwing stones.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:15 AM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


Well, after hearing my 15 year old daughter play that Taylor Swift song so many times, I for one was glad to see the video and find out that she gets the guy. Because I cannot tell from her singing/whining.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:16 AM on September 14, 2009


How dare you delete that thread before I have a chance to say how little I care about it!

Also, I keep hearing about this Ms. Gaga person so I went to look her up on Wikipedia and I got frightened. I'm old and there are teenagers and wolves chasing me
posted by bondcliff at 10:16 AM on September 14, 2009 [8 favorites]


Artw, you seem to have a strange definition of the word "enjoy'. Most of the thread is just throwaway one line snarking.

Dude, this is Metafilter.
posted by Artw at 10:16 AM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


I'd rather see Lady Gaga tear off her flesh-like plastic covering and reveal the terrifying chrome robot endoskeleton beneath just before whipping into a blur of deadly high speed gymnastics and whirling knives. No wolves required.

I'd like to see Lady Gaga on stage in her crazy disco-ball outfit. The music stops and she smiles. Her outfit begins to creak, light and smoke pouring out of her. Her face begins to crack. She's laughing, louder and deeper and more protooled as she grows larger, the Ursula at the of The Little Mermaid, and the smoke and light grow larger as her spectral dimension form devours the crowd.


That is the gayest sentence I've ever written.
posted by The Whelk at 10:17 AM on September 14, 2009 [9 favorites]


The Whelk: so she's Mok?
posted by mephron at 10:20 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Even Obama can't catch a break.
posted by ColdChef at 10:21 AM on September 14, 2009


I just want to tell you both good luck. We're all counting on you.
posted by not_on_display at 10:24 AM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


I don't know if Gaga should be the agent of death or simply the witness to it all. Either way, her bodily form will be consumed in a spectacular display of horror of some sort.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:25 AM on September 14, 2009


Oh, Kanye ... if you're gonna interrupt an awards presentation, you can certainly do so with more style than that.

"Wu-tang is for the children. We teach the children."

As for the deletion ... meh. Worse posts have stood, better posts have fallen, the world continues to turn.
posted by EatTheWeak at 10:25 AM on September 14, 2009 [5 favorites]


I'd rather see Lady Gaga tear off her flesh-like plastic covering and reveal the terrifying chrome robot endoskeleton beneath just before whipping into a blur of deadly high speed gymnastics and whirling knives.

Trust me when I tell you that the Haus of Gaga is working on this as we speak.
posted by hermitosis at 10:27 AM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Is this where we talk about the True Blood finale?

The finale that managed to completely eviscerate Greg Nog's excellent observation about the show?

This season made me sad.
posted by hifiparasol at 10:28 AM on September 14, 2009


I'm jealous of my future grandchildren, I'd give anything to be able to attend the Smithsonian Lady Gaga Memorial Retrospective, "So What Was THAT All About??" in the year 2110.
posted by hermitosis at 10:31 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Kanye may be kind of crazy, but Single Ladies is a pretty fucking awesome video.

Put your hands up.
posted by chunking express at 10:31 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


The Whelk, you call that gay?

Oh, and that True Blood finale. I saw that coming a mile away. I am so irritated that I took time off from playing Wizard 101 for that crap.
posted by Mister_A at 10:31 AM on September 14, 2009


The post was basically -- did you see what was on tv last night?

Exactly.

Why should we allow bloated entertainment conglomerates to use MetaFilter as a publicity megaphone?

MetaFilter is supposed to aim higher than that.
posted by jason's_planet at 10:31 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Wow. Once enough people are wearing these, the signal will be switched on and all wearers will assimilate into Gaga's death squads.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:32 AM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Also, RIP Old Dirty Bastard. You truly were a great man.
posted by chunking express at 10:34 AM on September 14, 2009


it was a shame to have to post the excellent mashup at the bottom of the 450-comment Joe Wilson

I dunno, that's a pretty slim FPP about an over-covered bit of political theatre ephemera that's mostly full of snark about, I doubt it's long for this world.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:35 AM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


I automatically assume that for me, watching the VMAs = Die a Little Inside. But I still channel surfed it around Mad Men because apparently my need to know what happened the next day > Dying a Little Inside. My confirmation was catching the last 5-10 minutes of the preshow, looking for Kurt Loder and not knowing who any of those slapped asses they were calling "MTV correspondents" were. I can only imagine Kurt Loder absolutely outright refused to throw it back to iJillian (wtf) to "check out the Twitter screen!"

That being said, a summary. Janet Jackson's voice sucked. Kanye is a dick. Lady GaGa is now not only strange and fun to look at, but also scares the mother loving fuck out of me. Beyonce, who I generally don't like, was gracious and classy. And out of all the circus and spectacle, the best performance of the night was Jay-Z and Alicia Keys -- no trapeze, no stage blood in their eyes, no dancers.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:35 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


...all wearers will assimilate into Gaga's death squads.

Kinda like Voltron? I hope it's like Voltron. Cuz wow, Voltron!
posted by Mister_A at 10:36 AM on September 14, 2009


But all that said, kind of okay with the thread being deleted. A couple comments could have been chopped, but once an FPP gets off line like that, sometimes you just need to sink the ship.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:37 AM on September 14, 2009


Did we really need to delete this FPP just because various defenders of MeFis indie street cred shat in this thread and presumably flagged it a lot? That's kind of a shame, because other people were enjoying it.

No, I think it was because...let me see here...

This post was deleted for the following reason: Huffington post. Entertainment news. This isnt a good post for metafilter.

posted by RikiTikiTavi at 10:39 AM on September 14, 2009


I agree with Howard Johnson.
posted by COBRA! at 10:39 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


I thought the only way the MaryAnn subplot (which I liked, cause I love Michelle Forbes like I love air and water and hey! Greek myth geeking out! She actually is Ariadne. Whoa. But really should have been wrapped up like three episodes ago. Boy howdy did it drag.) could possibly end is it Bacchus actually really appeared, and while I liked the way they handled it (again, about 3 episodes too late) having MaryAnn actually get her wish with a little more ambiguity would be nice.

If nothing else, I saw the final 30 min as a "Okay, sweep this up, lets get back to Crazy Vampire Politics and Crazy Humans living with supernatural beings. If the show gets back on track to the stuff Greg Nog loved (and I love too) then I'll be happy.

How do you even SAY gas leak in a genre show without your eyes rolling so hard you go blind? Maryanne was too big a thing for the show, and much too big to be swallowed by the show's "Oh so Vampires exist, that's neat but I really gotta get to the store, I don't support marriage tho" tone. Demi-God Bridezillas, while fun, are just too overpowered and too big for the show or the characters right now and the entire subplot just ran around in big circles. You get that kind of stuff in the 6th season, when Soffy has to battle the elemental nature of Slime or something. More Vampire in-fighting and Supernatural Brings shopping at Wal*Mart, more Church Of the Sun, please.

Also, Jessica? Awesome.
posted by The Whelk at 10:40 AM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Just because a video is hosted on Huffington Post, it's beneath notice?
posted by CunningLinguist at 10:40 AM on September 14, 2009


Ridiculous as it sounds, I thought it was a rather touchstone moment in pop culture.

It is very likely that this touchstone moment in pop culture was entirely manufactured to raise the profile of the "talent" involved. Would anyone here be talking about kanye's "talents" themselves if not for this stunt? No?

Is that cultural? No. It's not even artistic. It's faux-strife contrived to make enough noise to briefly rise above the baseline and pierce the zeitgeist and make people waste their time talking about them. If that's the sort of thing that floats your dingy than there's a whole buffet of hyper-dramatic soap-opera content available for you to consume.

If it makes me some kind of hipster to, oh, actually want some culture, talent and creativity in what people are trying to pass off as culture, well, fuck it all. Hand me that ironic t-shirt, I'll wear that fucker. Sideburns and Pabst, here I come!

It's long past time to acknowledge that pop culture was stillborn. It's nothing but a brief flash in the pan brought about by an entirely self-manufactured industry that has always been about image and false idolatry. Without the industry behind it to drive sales of products, pop culture doesn't exist. It's not real.

It is the great myth of pop culture - that anyone could rise up from their anonymous, dreary life and become that pop star, that dancer, that singer on stage in front of millions - and it's completely untrue. Only those willing to compromise their ethics and morals to play by the fucked up rules of the industry rise up and "become" stars. No one "becomes" a pop star out of sheer talent and hard work. You "become" a pop star only when you provide value to the industry and meet their expectations for marketability and sales, when you're willing to lie down, abandon your creative and artistic goals to be crudely and thoroughly fucked by the industry - while pretending that you like it and making encouraging movements and noises.

I say to you all - to hell with that noise. Everyone I've ever met in my entire is better than this. Each person has their own unique talents to contribute to real culture. Stop consuming their garbage - it's poisoning your mind with false expectations of how creativity and creating actually work.

Start producing. Make your own culture. If you're not producing something creative then I have no reason to trust that you even know what culture is. Anything you make yourself that is pure and innocent and real that helps you express who you are has much more value and is much more culturally valid than anything you can passively consume through the approved channels. Those approved channels aren't "culture", they're nothing but product distribution schemes.

STOP WORSHIPING STRANGERS YOU'VE NEVER MET.

START WORSHIPING YOUR LOVED ONES AND YOURSELF.
posted by loquacious at 10:45 AM on September 14, 2009 [26 favorites]


Oh hey, me and mathowie and cortex are all hanging out at my house! I think this was one of those cases where a post that we might of otherwise been shruggo about got so many flags that we felt that the flag queue had spoken. So I guess people can speak to the "why it got flagged so much" but vacapinta caught it in the middle of the night because it was had one of those "please don't let us wake up to this" amount of flags on it.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:46 AM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


At the end, Lady Gaga will the the last one standing on a pile of corpses, looking unfazed just as a large ceiling beam falls and neatly bifurcates her so that two bloody halves fall on opposite sides of the pile of corpses. That's healthy, yes?

If this kind of fantasizing is wrong, I don't want to be right.

I'd like to see Lady Gaga on stage in her crazy disco-ball outfit. The music stops and she smiles. Her outfit begins to creak, light and smoke pouring out of her. Her face begins to crack. She's laughing, louder and deeper and more protooled as she grows larger, the Ursula at the of The Little Mermaid, and the smoke and light grow larger as her spectral dimension form devours the crowd.

This, too.

Lady Gaga is the Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. War, Pestilence, Famine, Death, and Pantsless Auto-Tuned Famejunkie.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:46 AM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Seems like a pretty meh-tacular post to me.

Certainly an odd choice for a mod-defying cry of "Let this post live!". You were really that sorry to see it go?
posted by Joe Beese at 10:48 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


I think deletion was probably appropriate but the callout did result in me getting to see that link to the cute kid dancing to 'Single Ladies'. Not really because of the adorable toddler but because about 50 seconds in you see, in the upper right hand corner, what first appears to be a window. There's a dull greenish gray horizon with black smoke zooming by. It is a video of someone living in the future in a flying tenement. The fractured Earth's gravity has somehow been thrown off and these massive rotating cities have been set up to maintain life under the polluted, leftover sky. Or perhaps it wasn't pollution at all, but instead a new age projection system, broadcasting a certain website's deconstruction of its filter of current events. The atmosphere itself was now the web.

And then I realized it was a mirror reflecting a ceiling fan.
posted by cashman at 10:49 AM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


STOP WORSHIPING STRANGERS YOU'VE NEVER MET.

START WORSHIPING YOUR LOVED ONES AND YOURSELF.


"Enjoying the performances of professional entertainers" != "worshiping strangers," at least for me.

But then I am a professional entertainer and I am married to a professional entertainer (even though he still has a day job and sometimes I do too) so I may have bias here.

I am not a fan of Lady Gaga, but I have no intention of stopping listening to, say, Richard Thompson or Wyclef Jean or Jill Scott or Diana Krall or whoever just because they're professionals who have big mainstream media presences.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:49 AM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


Oh hey, me and mathowie and cortex are all hanging out at my house!


MODERATOR PILLOW FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by The Whelk at 10:51 AM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Oh hey, me and mathowie and cortex are all hanging out at my house!

This is setting up Vacapinta's plan of total takeover nicely.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:51 AM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


Everyone I've ever met in my entire life is better than this.

Repeated for correction and emphasis.
posted by loquacious at 10:52 AM on September 14, 2009


Stop consuming their garbage - it's poisoning your mind with false expectations of how creativity and creating actually work.

Yeah, I'll get right on that.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:56 AM on September 14, 2009 [19 favorites]


People still watch MTV? Seriously?
posted by entropicamericana at 10:57 AM on September 14, 2009


Person known for making wild statements and crazy antics does crazy antic on MTv show known for having crazy antics.

I don't see a problem with the deletion, and it certainly doesn't take a hipster to see the pointlessness of such a post. I agree with someone up above that it probably could have been remedied with something more fleshed out...but it wasn't.

A year from now, the moment will be memorialized only by MTv and probably the producers of the awful Movie comedy franchise.
posted by Atreides at 10:57 AM on September 14, 2009


It's like this that I wonder "What the hell was the Cylons plan?"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:58 AM on September 14, 2009


People still watch MTV? Seriously?

No, they don't, and that's why they have to make up "outrageous" stuff like this every year to get people talking.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:00 AM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


posted by The Whelk
"MODERATOR PILLOW FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!"

And then they'll bake some cookies.
posted by not_on_display at 11:00 AM on September 14, 2009


Oh hey, me and mathowie and cortex are all hanging out at my house!

*Prepares Molotov cocktails...*
ANARCHY IN THE MEFI!
posted by qvantamon at 11:00 AM on September 14, 2009


"Enjoying the performances of professional entertainers" != "worshiping strangers," at least for me.

Enjoying something like actual music isn't what I'm arguing against, and is missing the point. I'm not arguing against performances by talented people, yours, your spouses or anyone.

I'm arguing against the slavish devotion to things like this media stunt. While it is in a sense a performance - is it enjoyable or creative? Or is it just attention seeking? Giving these people attention for bad behavior is at it's root idle idol worship, and if anything it's inherently anti-cultural.
posted by loquacious at 11:01 AM on September 14, 2009


pop culture doesn't exist. It's not real

the very fact that you can write a 4 paragraph comment on pop culture certifies that it is a very real thing that sprang from . . . gasp, culture!
posted by Think_Long at 11:04 AM on September 14, 2009


I'd much rather entertainment news than every US political blip.

Proof there's no difference
posted by DreamerFi at 11:04 AM on September 14, 2009


I automatically assume that for me, watching the VMAs = Die a Little Inside.

Too right. The last time I actually sat through an entire one of those shows was 2000. I can't put my finger on precisely what did it, but after the show was over, I felt as though I'd stuffed myself to bursting at the cheapest Chinese buffet in town, smoked two packs of cigarettes, watched an hour or so of grainy snuff porn and washed the whole works down with a fifth of 3 Star Vodka. There was no single speech or presentation or performance that rose above the rest of the evening in terms of awfulness or toxicity, but nonetheless I felt like utter garbage after spending my evening watching that show, and this toxic feeling lasted much, much longer than any of the cheap thrills the VMAs had provided.

Later that night, I made a decision based not on any sort of Artistic Purity or the Conservation of Indie Cred or anything like that - for the same reason I would later quit smoking cigarettes, quit ingesting high-fructose corn syrup and quit snorting various things - simple self-preservation. I had to cut way the hell back on MTV and celebrity-spotting for my health, above all else - too much of that shit'll kill you!

I've certainly not become some kind of Hipster Monk, mind. As with the other Bad Habits I've broken in my life, the detox has been far from cold-turkey. I still know what Nerdcore movies are on the way months before they arrive; I just don't give a shit what most of the stars have to say about them on talk shows. I still like music, of course, I simply try to avoid learning anything about the performers' personalities. Hell, I'll even sneak a little sip of VMAs every now and again. In vanishingly small doses, they're pretty alright. Was it last year that Russel Brand hosted? His opening monologue was pretty funny. And his skinny jeans were pretty funny-looking.

/getoffmylawn
posted by EatTheWeak at 11:04 AM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


To me it ranked right alongside cutting in line at a fast food joint. It's rude, but 5 minutes later, who cares.
posted by cashman at 11:05 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Taylor Swift:"Country"::Avril Levigne:"Punk"

No matter what you call it, it's still just Debbie Gibson.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:06 AM on September 14, 2009 [8 favorites]


I am a broken record about this but: If you shit in a thread because YOU think it doesn't meet the standards of FPPdom I really hope you get a fucking splinter. Seriously. A few poison pills early in a thread will do more to make that thread go to hell than will any intrinsic 'thin' or 'meh' or 'not really worth an FPP' ness that the FPP may possess. Flag it and move on, or you are being much more willfully destructive than the original poster.
posted by dirtdirt at 11:06 AM on September 14, 2009 [17 favorites]


I'm arguing against the slavish devotion to things like this media stunt. While it is in a sense a performance - is it enjoyable or creative? Or is it just attention seeking? Giving these people attention for bad behavior is at it's root idle idol worship, and if anything it's inherently anti-cultural.

Well, again that feels straw-mannish to me. Yes, "slavish devotion" to celebrity culture is probably nothing I want to be part of. "Passing interest in celebrities' odd behavior" doesn't make me feel like I'm idol-worshipping; it makes me feel like I'm noticing some outliers of the human experience.

I sometimes read the sports pages, too. I know that there are lots of people who are all "Oh, ha, ha, you're caring about the doings of highly-paid professional game-players who happen to work in a town near where you live" but that isn't an argument that works for me.

I think celebrity culture and professional athletics are interesting examples of human behavior. I also like watching nature shows about bower birds and reading about baboon metaphysics The world fascinates me, and I'm not going to apologize for any of it, whether it's reading People or traveling to Easter Island to see the moai in person.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:07 AM on September 14, 2009 [10 favorites]


"MODERATOR PILLOW FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!"

And then they'll bake some cookies.


Before or after they dare each other to call up MeFites then hang up giggling?
posted by EatTheWeak at 11:08 AM on September 14, 2009


Oh hey, me and mathowie and cortex are all hanging out at my house!

That has to be a violation of some sort of mod-safety chain of succession protocol. Meteors, tornadoes, and terrarists happen, people!

You had better lock one of you in the basement just to be careful.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:08 AM on September 14, 2009


Yeah, I'll get right on that.

Right. Seriously? You're going to cherry pick a couple of my worst posts to deflate an exhortation that you should feel free to be more creative yourself? I'll freely admit all of those suck. I'd delete them if I could. I'm human, I'm not perfect and I never will be.

Except for the Star Trek mashups. That shit is brilliant.

Go make stuff.
posted by loquacious at 11:10 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


And the VMA goes to ... loquacious! The manufactured music industry simply could not ignore your contribution to the genres of self-serving indignation and holier-than-thou rhetoric this year. Now get off the stage before Kanye interrupts your acceptance speech.
posted by cgomez at 11:11 AM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Sys Rq: "No matter what you call it, it's still just Debbie Gibson."

WE ARE THE ELECTRIC YOUTH. WE DO NOT FORGET. WE DO NOT FORGIVE. YOUR SLANDER WILL BE DEALT WITH. WE ARE THE NEW BREED.
posted by Joe Beese at 11:12 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Maybe if the little moon man award statuettes could be rigged to stab the recipient in the eye with the little flag pole.
posted by Burhanistan at 11:12 AM on September 14, 2009


To me it ranked right alongside cutting in line at a fast food joint.

I've killed for less.
posted by aramaic at 11:13 AM on September 14, 2009


Whether or not something might make good FPP material is sort of a low-priority for me, personally; I've seen MetaFilter do some very insightful commentary on the most trivial of topics. Sometimes the bean-plating is neat. I have a vague guess as to who Kanye West is, though I could not visually identify him; I have never heard of Taylor Swift. Someone here has, though, probably several someones, and what they might have to say about something (probably) unscripted occurring during one of the most scripted, stylized hunks of sugar puffery since the Marshmallow Peep was invented might have taught me something.
posted by adipocere at 11:13 AM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


WE ARE THE ELECTRIC YOUTH. WE DO NOT FORGET. WE DO NOT FORGIVE. YOUR SLANDER WILL BE DEALT WITH. WE ARE THE NEW BREED.

They talk about us. Telling lies. Well that's no surprise
posted by The Whelk at 11:14 AM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


Seems like a reasonable deletion to me. But having now read the deleted thread I am saddened to learn via this comment that that Taylor Swift song is NOT about queer teenage unrequited love. Now I will enjoy it less when I hear bits of it in the grocery store.
posted by yarrow at 11:14 AM on September 14, 2009


This season made me sad.

I can't believe you said that. Season 2 took everything that was involved in the premise of the show, took a long hard look at that premise, realized that vampires=gays is a pretty damn goofy analogy, and then just said fuck it! It was goddamn hilarious fun television.

Andy and Jason? Every one of those scenes was comedy gold.
Jessica and Hoyt? Finally, a television program has come along to deal with the serious fanfic issue of the 'eternal virgin'.
Eric and Bill? Like two goofy teen brothers trying to impress a girl.

"You might have your faults, Andy, but at least you've got pants on."
posted by graventy at 11:14 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Start producing. Make your own culture. If you're not producing something creative then I have no reason to trust that you even know what culture is. Anything you make yourself that is pure and innocent and real that helps you express who you are has much more value and is much more culturally valid than anything you can passively consume through the approved channels. Those approved channels aren't "culture", they're nothing but product distribution schemes.

Oh, please. I'm the last person to say that MTV makes great stuff, but this post-ironic "we all need to express ourselves" rhetoric is just stupid, and it's as fake as anything else in the world. People pay money for what they like and enjoy, and sometimes that's Kanye's pretend-drama and sometimes it's faux-authentic singer-songwriter angst and sometimes it's Kermit the frog. That's not going to change, and it doesn't make someone uncultured or an idiot if they don't make all the entertainment they need all by themselves.

Stop yelling the cultural equivalent of "wake up, sheeple!" It's tedious.
posted by marginaliana at 11:15 AM on September 14, 2009 [25 favorites]


I think a better post could have been made about the VMAs -- as stunned as I was by Kanye's latest adventure into being an asshole, I was at least as taken aback by Madonna's weird "eulogy" of Michael Jackson that was mostly a catalog of all the ways in which Michael Jackson was so very much like Madonna, and the uber-sketchy performance that followed in which Janet Jackson did a freakish exploitation dance with her recently deceased brother -- but this was the one that was there, and the VMAs kind of are a big deal to a pretty big chunk of the populace. (At least in the way that any bizarre sideshow/meaningless award ceremony ever can be. I'm not saying it's life and death over here.)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:16 AM on September 14, 2009


Fistful of Rikers is, no joke, the funniest thing I've seen all summer. I'm downright grateful to loquacious for sharing it.
posted by EatTheWeak at 11:16 AM on September 14, 2009


No matter what you call it, it's still just Debbie Gibson.

Don't you fucking dare dis Debbie Deborah Gibson.
posted by bondcliff at 11:18 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I used to be much better at a good positively motivating rant.

I'm not sure if I've changed or if MetaFilter changed. Now it feels like I'm wearing a sandwich board covered in gibberish.

See you around.
posted by loquacious at 11:19 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Oh hey, me and mathowie and cortex are all hanging out at my house!

You ever hear abut these Mod Parties?

Like what, like Mods and Rockers?

No man, I'm talkin' about moderators. They have parties. You know what they do there?

No?

They ban. They ban all night and all day. They ban people, they ban whole IPs, hell at night they even ban each other, over and over, ban ban ban.

Wait, what about Vacapinta? What does he do?

Boy, I'll tell you what Vacapinta does. He just sits there ...and bans himself.
posted by The Whelk at 11:21 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'm human, I'm not perfect and I never will be.

But you PROMISED.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:23 AM on September 14, 2009


Blah blah Debbie Gibson blah blah Outback?

Electric ute!
posted by Sys Rq at 11:24 AM on September 14, 2009


Did this really fucking happen?
posted by The Devil Tesla at 11:27 AM on September 14, 2009


Okay, I just listened to Taylor Swift out of curiosity. Does anybody else find the obnoxiously loud breath noises in "You Belong With Me" distracting? If you're going to produce a track with flat, soulless, mericilessly-tuned vocals, leaving in the super-compressed breath sounds doesn't make it more "natural," it just makes you look lazy.

Also, I am only skimming this thread because I haven't watched True Blood yet.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:27 AM on September 14, 2009


Start producing. Make your own culture. If you're not producing something creative then I have no reason to trust that you even know what culture is. Anything you make yourself that is pure and innocent and real that helps you express who you are has much more value and is much more culturally valid than anything you can passively consume through the approved channels.

My Star Trek homoerotic fan fiction is motherfucking art!
posted by KokuRyu at 11:29 AM on September 14, 2009


dear uncleozzy:

SPOILER ALERT:

There are vampires in it.
posted by Mister_A at 11:29 AM on September 14, 2009


Kanye is an enormous pud -- second only to Metallica -- but his music is quite great.
posted by porn in the woods at 11:30 AM on September 14, 2009


FUCK.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:30 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Go make stuff.

I do make stuff. Fortunately, an embarrassingly, insultingly presumptuous Howard Beale wannabe rant lecturing others on how to be better people when I've got just as much shit under my nails as they do isn't one of them.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:30 AM on September 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


Dang, I probably should have previewed.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:31 AM on September 14, 2009


http was meant for love, yawl.
posted by Burhanistan at 11:33 AM on September 14, 2009


Burhanistan: "Am I a bad person for imagining various scenarios in which all attendees at the MTV awards are mercilessly slaughtered. It's pretty pedestrian stuff, really. Bulldozers, flaming arrows, WWII fighter planes strafing everyone with machine guns, the RCMH slowly flooding with everyone trapped inside, rabid packs of wolves, usual stuff. None of it involves explosions or anything that might guarantee quick death. The more screaming and panic the better. At the end, Lady Gaga will the the last one standing on a pile of corpses, looking unfazed just as a large ceiling beam falls and neatly bifurcates her so that two bloody halves fall on opposite sides of the pile of corpses. That's healthy, yes?"

Get out of my head, man!

The only problem with this scenario is that it would give rise to an unstoppable deluge of tribute concerts. Follow that with a shit-ton of mawkish, solemn prayer and reflection and you've just spawned a new generation of people extending themselves further into the ether crying "Like me, like me!"

Or not. Hell, I don't know.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 11:34 AM on September 14, 2009


Heh. Thread shitters. if this was some boring ass indie hipster douche you'd be all over it.
posted by Artw at 10:20 PM on September 13 [17 favorites +] [!]

Since when isn't Kayne a "boring ass indie hipster douche"? Well maybe not indie, but he has the rest covered.
posted by afu at 11:36 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


George Bush doesn't care about Debbie Gibson.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:39 AM on September 14, 2009


Ridiculous as it sounds, I thought it was a rather touchstone moment in pop culture.

STOP WORSHIPING STRANGERS YOU'VE NEVER MET.

START WORSHIPING YOUR LOVED ONES AND YOURSELF.


I don't worship anybody, thank you very much, least of all Kanye West.

Thanks for the leap in logic. And the laugh.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 11:39 AM on September 14, 2009


I got more boners (1) watching the Beyoncé video than watching the other young lass's. Kanye was right.
posted by Mister_A at 11:44 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


You know how indie music snobs tend to have their own personal, unwritten rules for determining whether other people have good taste in music?

Mine's Debbie Gibson. For real. She's got a good voice, unblemished by autotune or gratuitous scale-gargling melisma, and she was writing decent songs at the age most kids are writing angsty poems that'll just embarrass them five years down the line. People trot out The Debbie Gibson Corollary to Godwin's Law whenever the subject is pop music, but man, I wish pop music today sounded more like Debbie Gibson.

If someone thinks I'm a dork for listening to Debbie Gibson, well, we have nothing to say to each other and no mixtapes to exchange.
posted by Metroid Baby at 11:47 AM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


Go make stuff.

I make Taylor Swift sculptures out of paper mache, my own blood, and locks of hair I've stolen from her trash. Does that count?
posted by bondcliff at 11:47 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Is putting Nutella on a peanut butter sandwich too much, or just too much DELICIOUSNESS?
posted by BitterOldPunk at 11:48 AM on September 14, 2009


STOP WORSHIPING STRANGERS YOU'VE NEVER MET.

START WORSHIPING YOUR LOVED ONES AND YOURSELF.


FOUR LEGS GOOD, TWO LEGS BAD. FOUR LEGS GOOD, TWO LEGS BAD.

Oh sorry, I thought we were sharing our battle cries for the revolution. My revolution? It's based around everyone traveling in pairs, inside of horse costumes (or other quadrupeds, if you and your partner of the moment so desire).

You see, people have been growing apart due to a number of reasons. We communicate through electronic devices, coordinating our efforts via digital conduits. We may be connected, but not in any authentic or meaningful way. Our language has grown to include texting terminology in spoken language, further dividing the generations and social circles. People need each-other to survive, but we're putting up walls faster than we're tearing them down. Even when we share the same proximity in vehicles, we isolate ourselves with reading material or musical distractions. The answer?

Horse suits.

People work in pairs to reach their destinations, and must agree on the pace and the route, in very close proximity to one another. Expand this to a larger scale, and navigation requires even more coordination. You cannot weave and zip about as you please, because a pair of people in a shared horse suit cannot stop or dodge as swiftly as a single person.

Horse suit pairs are not bound by their suit, but must coordinate their efforts while together. Do you need to go to the store? Pair up, and off you go, but don't forget that the other person may have their own list of items to buy. Commuting to work? Find a partner, and off you go, but don't forget to ask your other half if they need coffee before they get to the office.

Horse suits!
posted by filthy light thief at 11:49 AM on September 14, 2009 [15 favorites]


Peanut butter and Nutella? Where do you live, Paradise?
posted by Mister_A at 11:50 AM on September 14, 2009


Oh hey, me and mathowie and cortex are all hanging out at my house! I think this was one of those cases where a post that we might of otherwise been shruggo about got so many flags that we felt that the flag queue had spoken. So I guess people can speak to the "why it got flagged so much" but vacapinta caught it in the middle of the night because it was had one of those "please don't let us wake up to this" amount of flags on it.

Letting the flag queue speak so loudly has always seemed like bad policy to me. Directing people to (only?) talk about the flager's flagging and not about the actual decision.. Also bad.
posted by Chuckles at 11:53 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


I have one critical question re: the VMAs, which I did not watch.

DID YOU GUYS SEE THIS??
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:54 AM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Also, yes yes a thousand times yes to the horse suits.
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:55 AM on September 14, 2009


STOP WORSHIPING STRANGERS YOU'VE NEVER MET.

Can we not turn this into a thread about Jesus?
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:00 PM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


I so call front legs.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:00 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Also, I only worship strangers I have met repeatedly and am quite friendly with. Those are the best sort of strangers.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:00 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


"a post that we might of otherwise been shruggo about"

I am flabbergasted.
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 12:01 PM on September 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


Am I a bad person for imagining various scenarios in which all attendees at the MTV awards are mercilessly slaughtered. It's pretty pedestrian stuff, really. Bulldozers, flaming arrows, WWII fighter planes strafing everyone with machine guns, the RCMH slowly flooding with everyone trapped inside, rabid packs of wolves, usual stuff. None of it involves explosions or anything that might guarantee quick death. The more screaming and panic the better. At the end, Lady Gaga will the the last one standing on a pile of corpses, looking unfazed just as a large ceiling beam falls and neatly bifurcates her so that two bloody halves fall on opposite sides of the pile of corpses. That's healthy, yes?

I mean, I know you're just kidding, using the kind of cheap dishonest humor where you set up yourself as the nice guy, but the butt of the joke as just so offensive that you just can't help saying all kinds of brutal nasty shit (even though you're still an incredibly nice guy who would NEVER say stuff like that.) Just like that time I heard the "comedian" Patton Oswald call Paris Hilton a "cunt" in a club. The waitress, who had just walked back in the room, looked offended. He looked down at her and told her "I was talking about Paris Hilton." Because that makes it ok, if the target is someone you're pretty sure your audience doesn't like either.

But yes, advocating brutal murder of innocent people makes you a bad person.
posted by drjimmy11 at 12:03 PM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


STOP WORSHIPING STRANGERS YOU'VE NEVER MET

Forgive me, but worship is the only reasonable response to Mallika Sherwat.
posted by EatTheWeak at 12:03 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


You're going to cherry pick a couple of my worst posts to deflate an exhortation that you should feel free to be more creative yourself? I'll freely admit all of those suck. I'd delete them if I could. I'm human, I'm not perfect and I never will be.

Dude, take that back. Fistful of Rikers was the best thing ever posted to mefi.
posted by mullacc at 12:05 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


At first i was all OMFG wat is that robot in the crowd but then i was like o it's Perez Hilton but then i was like WHAT IS THAT STEAMPUNK BIOTECH THING and it was the penultimate larva stage of the Gagga.

it begins{insert zalgo fonts}
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:06 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


But yes, advocating brutal murder of innocent people makes you a bad person.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.
posted by Burhanistan at 12:12 PM on September 14, 2009


I think Lady Gaga is a sort of latter-day David Bowie in some ways... not saying that she has the goods like he does, but her persona is strange and conceptual, artful even. I don't like her music particularly but I do like her oddball ways.
posted by Mister_A at 12:15 PM on September 14, 2009


But yes, advocating brutal murder of innocent people makes you a bad person.

No one is innocent.
posted by bondcliff at 12:16 PM on September 14, 2009


Too right. The last time I actually sat through an entire one of those shows was 2000.

I'm pretty sure that if you haven't watched the VMAs in 9 years, you are not the target audience.
posted by smackfu at 12:16 PM on September 14, 2009


Ahem, Patrick Wolf Is the new David Bowie
posted by The Whelk at 12:18 PM on September 14, 2009


And really, the people that are really depressing are the MTV reporters, who are all *way* too old for this shit, and it's depressing to see them act like teenagers.
posted by smackfu at 12:18 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Some of you forget that Debbie Gibson sings backup on the Circle Jerks' cover of "I Wanna Destroy You." No shit!

So all of you can take whatever you define as your indie hipster backwashed PBR and pour it on some steampunk'd bacon for your nerd homies who couldn't make it to this thread cause they're gettin' all WOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO makin breakfast for someone.


what

posted by not_on_display at 12:20 PM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


advocating brutal murder of innocent people makes you a bad person

Wait, I was away from my computer eating some leftover Irish Baby A La Swift--what were we talking about?
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:21 PM on September 14, 2009


If the MarkovFilter will not return to me, I will return to it, goddamit!
posted by not_on_display at 12:21 PM on September 14, 2009


Lady Gaga is the Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. War, Pestilence, Famine, Death, and Pantsless Auto-Tuned Famejunkie Muppets.
posted by Sidhedevil

posted by stavrogin at 12:27 PM on September 14, 2009


Whelk, those guys are like a more cheerful Erasure.
posted by Mister_A at 12:28 PM on September 14, 2009


I think we can all agree that we haven't had real culture in this country since the good old days when we all stood around the piano and sang "My Dear Old Gal's Got the Dropsy Again."
posted by Bookhouse at 12:28 PM on September 14, 2009 [8 favorites]


Am I a bad person for imagining various scenarios

advocating brutal murder of innocent people makes you a bad person

Wait - imagining things is the same thing as advocating, now? Well, shit - I guess that makes Stephen King worse than Hitler!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:28 PM on September 14, 2009


Did Iron Maiden get an award yet? We should talk about Iron Maiden more. I'd like that a lot.
posted by Loto at 12:29 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Mister_A : I give you this outfit.
posted by The Whelk at 12:30 PM on September 14, 2009


If anyone is still interested in this, I managed to find a good write up because of another Metatalk post. Someone had mentioned YoungAmerican, and so I checked out his website and found this.
posted by P.o.B. at 12:31 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


I grant you, he looks more like the offspring of Grace Jones and a mortal woman in that one.

(Grace Jones appears to seduce milk maids in the form of a large cat. I thought everyone knew this?)
posted by The Whelk at 12:31 PM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Re: True Blood

I fucking hate the "cliffhanger". This show is not coming back until June 2010 and I already don't care what the resolution to this last-minute plot twist is because it came out of nowhere, leaving nothing to wonder about. People are not going to be talking about it all winter in eager anticipation of the premier. Dallas played that trick out and it wasn't a very good one to begin with, so why do so many shows do this? It's lazy and insulting to the fans. Give me a good Dexter-style resolution, some groundwork for what's to come, and call it a season.

I like the show though. It's not great by any stretch of the imagination, but the premise is interesting. Agreed that the Maryanne thing got out of control. That subplot was so big it made the whole vampire thing feel incidental rather than the point of the show. The idea isn't nearly played out enough yet to get derailed like that and there's already the excellent Supernatural covering the xfiles-monster-of-the-week-needs-a-beatdown territory. They even have black eyes!
posted by cj_ at 12:32 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


That is a pretty awesome outfit. You win this one...
posted by Mister_A at 12:32 PM on September 14, 2009


Ahem, Patrick Wolf Ear Pwr is the new David Bowie probably.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:34 PM on September 14, 2009


I'm not slagging on Debbie Gibson. (Indie what? I'm a prog head, jerkface!) I'm just saying, over the past 25 years, there has been a constant stream of teenaged blondes of varying talent slinging the same overprocessed pop pap. That the major labels seem to be constantly striving for the next Debbie Gibson is something she should be proud of.

Now, all that said, c'mon now folks, Debbie Gibson is no Belinda Carlisle.

(To give the pop manufacturers some credit, this year's model is commendably well-designed. /objectification)
posted by Sys Rq at 12:34 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


You know what would really get people all up in a tizzy about Lady Gaga? Not crazy outfits, not weird affectations. It's armpit hair. Show off some pit stubble, Lady. It's the only way to really push whatever kind of boundary of acceptability you chasing after.
posted by Burhanistan at 12:39 PM on September 14, 2009


But, no matter how hard they may try, they'll never exceed Frank.
posted by Burhanistan at 12:40 PM on September 14, 2009


It's the only way to really push whatever kind of boundary of acceptability you chasing after.

Uh lol i can think of another way to push that boundary. I'm pretty sure it's a little more risque than fuzz.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:42 PM on September 14, 2009


If someone thinks I'm a dork for listening to Debbie Gibson, well, we have nothing to say to each other and no mixtapes to exchange

I'm guessing you've managed to avoid Mega-Shark vs Giant Octopus...
posted by goo at 12:44 PM on September 14, 2009


In order to enjoy listening to Patrick Wolf, I have to put a lot of effort into pretending that his voice is coming out of a totally different person. Love the music, but his shtick and look doesn't do it for me, he seems like a little boy playing dress-up.
posted by hermitosis at 12:47 PM on September 14, 2009


Oh man we almost didn't notice Lil Mama storming the stage during Jay-Z's thing, hahahahaha
posted by kathrineg at 12:48 PM on September 14, 2009


Sys Rq: "Debbie Gibson is no Belinda Carlisle."

In terms of willingness to pose for Playboy, she is, actually.
posted by Joe Beese at 12:59 PM on September 14, 2009


Hmm. I guess it's just coincidence that Kanye is scheduled to perform on the premiere episode of the new Jay Leno primetime show, and that this 'controversy' has could not possibly have more potential entry points in the coveted 18 - 25 bracket?
posted by dirtdirt at 1:08 PM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


I was reading a Debbie Gibson bio page or something the other day, maybe her IMDB page because of a discussion of some shitty movie she was in recently or something, and there was notably no sign of the string "Debbie" anywhere on that page. Not even to say "don't call her Debbie, dammit" or whatever.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:08 PM on September 14, 2009


Tonight.
posted by dirtdirt at 1:08 PM on September 14, 2009


dirtdirt ftw.

Cynicism is truth.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:14 PM on September 14, 2009


You know what would really get people all up in a tizzy about Lady Gaga? Not crazy outfits, not weird affectations. It's armpit hair. Show off some pit stubble, Lady. It's the only way to really push whatever kind of boundary of acceptability you chasing after.

What, possibly having a penis not good enough for you?
posted by waraw at 1:22 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Maybe growing up listening to punk/new wave and then discovering the internet in the early 90s has jaded me or something, but I honestly do not see what is so cur-AAAAAY-zee! about Lady Gaga. She has all the forced weirdness of Cindi Lauper, and none of the charm. I hope the ghost of Wendy O Williams haunts her, Jacob Marley-like: "Lady Gagaaaa .... how could you do this to meeeeeee????".
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:22 PM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


Oh, old people.

Which is sadder? Paying attention to stage-managed bombastic "pop culture" even though you know it's the psychic equivalent of eating a case of Mallomars, or not paying attention because you know you'll be bored and confused?

Wait, is John Norris wearing a hemp necklace? Christ, he's 50 now.
posted by klangklangston at 1:24 PM on September 14, 2009


Did anybody notice that Loquacious flamed out just now?
posted by Methylviolet at 1:25 PM on September 14, 2009


Yeah, but who else is doing all that NOW? As in, in the present, in person, where young and old can gawp over it all?

It's all about the present tense. Gaga is well aware of the debt she owes to those who came before her, but they're not here anymore, and she is. I think that's all there is to the game.
posted by hermitosis at 1:27 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


My comment was totes directed at Marisa, incidentally.
posted by hermitosis at 1:28 PM on September 14, 2009


I hope the ghost of Wendy O Williams haunts her, Jacob Marley-like: "Lady Gagaaaa .... how could you do this to meeeeeee????".

"So, you think you have a poltergeist here?"

"I don't think so" (dodges a flying vase) "I know so."

"So why don't you just cast it out, I like, GAVE you that Dechantment Shrine last month."

"well, cause I think it's a specific *crash!* person."

"Who?"

"You cannot be for serious."

"Wendy O. Williams."

"Bullshit."

"Oh really?"

*Turns on TV, it bursts into flame*

"Yeah, that happens a lot."
posted by The Whelk at 1:29 PM on September 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


Pantsless Auto-Tuned Famejunkie.

Yeah, I kinda felt that way too, until I saw whats-his-face from American Idol do a live cover of Poker Face that showed it's actually a well-crafted song, and then I saw her do a live cover of one of her own songs in a dramatically different style while playing a piano that showed she actually can play piano extremely well, sings well and has a sense of humor.

So, uh, Pantsless Auto-tuned Famejunkie with massive amounts of hidden talent. Kinda like an early Christina Aguilera.
posted by davejay at 1:30 PM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


She writes all her own music, as well.
posted by empath at 1:33 PM on September 14, 2009


Yeah, but who else is doing all that NOW? As in, in the present, in person, where young and old can gawp over it all?

It's all about the present tense. Gaga is well aware of the debt she owes to those who came before her, but they're not here anymore, and she is. I think that's all there is to the game.


Maybe my oldness is showing. And maybe completely separate from the past and looking solely at contemporaries, Lada Gaga is friggin' brain-exploding compared to say, Miley Cyrus. She just reminds me of one of the drama club kids from high school trying too hard to be strange and coming across as just affected. But then I was on the literary mag and we were always beefing with the drama club.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:34 PM on September 14, 2009


But then I was on the literary mag and we were always beefing with the drama club.

The combination dance fight-spelling bees must have brutal.
posted by The Whelk at 1:35 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


The Whelk: so she's Mok?

Jesus goddamn on a holy butt. Few things cheer me up more on a Monday afternoon than deep left field references that I actually catch.
posted by Dr-Baa at 1:37 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Maybe my oldness is showing. And maybe completely separate from the past and looking solely at contemporaries, Lada Gaga is friggin' brain-exploding compared to say, Miley Cyrus.

I think it's more accurate to say that she's more interesting than Miley Cyrus. My impression is that they initially tried to sell her as a gay-friendly Britney Spears, and that she has been struggling to break out of that. It's clear that there is something going on behind all the pre-fab pop glitz. Whether it's genuine artistry or just half-baked wackiness, I think it's too early to say. I dunno if she's Christina Aguillera, David Bowie, Andy Warhol, Madonna or Marilyn Manson. Maybe a combination of all of them.

Or maybe she just burns out and never does anything worth-while... who knows?
posted by empath at 1:39 PM on September 14, 2009


Did anybody notice that Loquacious flamed out just now?

Nope, he's still sending me love notes, despite the court order.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:40 PM on September 14, 2009


Plus she's down with PeeGee's Finest.

So yeah, WE'RE GAGA FOR HER AMIRITE?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:42 PM on September 14, 2009


Did anybody notice that Loquacious flamed out just now?

Pah, Loquacious doesn't need posts. He can comment directly into your brain via the Astral Comment Box.

And the favorites. The favorites? They tingle.

Boy do they tingle.
posted by The Whelk at 1:43 PM on September 14, 2009


Or maybe she just burns out and never does anything worth-while... who knows?

It'll be fun to see what she comes up with, anyway. It's always interesting when pop artists really strike out on their own path. And she'd be more likely to do that than any of the current crop of singers.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:43 PM on September 14, 2009


Has this been posted yet?

It's like this whole career sideline for Kanye. I'm glad he's found a niche.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:46 PM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Horse Suits.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:46 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Did anybody notice that Loquacious flamed out just now?

I think he just needed to get some air.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:54 PM on September 14, 2009


Few things cheer me up more on a Monday afternoon than deep left field references that I actually catch.

And thus Dr-Baa reveals one of the primary selling points of the Mike Nelson era MST3ks.
posted by adipocere at 1:56 PM on September 14, 2009


can't stand gaga's album tracks. love her live, love her interviews, love her stripped down songs (that she keeps calling acoustic, but seriously, sweetie, your keyboard is plugged the fuck in), lovelovelove the last minute and a half of her VMA performance (would have been better if the blood came from her crotch and if you hadn't been able to see the pink behind her breast for the entire performance).

also - nearly 200 comments? on deleting a thread that should have been deleted? oh, mefi, i love you even more than i love the pop tarts.
posted by nadawi at 1:59 PM on September 14, 2009


Start producing. Make your own culture. If you're not producing something creative then I have no reason to trust that you even know what culture is.

"Yeah, great. I hear you. Can you make my latte now?"
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:00 PM on September 14, 2009 [11 favorites]


Has this been posted yet?

That's pretty damn funny. I had no idea Kanye had this habit of grabbing the mic and voicing outrage of being denied awards. I think Kate Perry's assessment - that what he did to Swift was like "stepping on a kitten" - was pretty accurate. He clearly has some issues to work out. At the same time, this is the same guy who once won an award - for Best Hip Hop Video - said he felt Big Boi deserved it more, and tried to give it to him. So who knows. Maybe he's just imbalanced or something.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:00 PM on September 14, 2009


I thought he gave the award to Outkast...
posted by Mister_A at 2:03 PM on September 14, 2009


But yeah, point taken. He's got boundary issues.
posted by Mister_A at 2:04 PM on September 14, 2009


Kanye may be kind of crazy, but Single Ladies is a pretty fucking awesome video.

It's three women dancing to a single 3-minute song with some lighting effects.

How is something "pretty fucking awesome" when it happens multiple times each night, in every Broadway show ever staged, live, without sneaky-sneaky video cuts?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:04 PM on September 14, 2009


My guess is that Lady Gaga is a hyperkinetic and talented young woman going through her impulsive years with a blank check and no one to fire her for violating dress codes or anything, and her mindset is currently full-throttle AW SHIT YEAH I'M GONNA WEAR A JACKET MADE OF MUPPETS CUZ I CAN AWESOME WOOOO! Whether that coheres into anything artistically or culturally important, I couldn't tell ya, but it sure looks really fun.

I'm simultaneously really jealous of her and really grateful that my wackiest ideas never had a large audience.
posted by Metroid Baby at 2:05 PM on September 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


And as long as we're being wacky, I'd really like to see a duet between Lady Gaga and Keyboard Cat. With Debbie Gibson on backup vocals. And a spoken interlude from Kanye about how the All Your Base song was much better.
posted by Metroid Baby at 2:07 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


I think he just needed to get some air.

Precisely.

Except I need a lot of air and airing out. I'm starting to stink.

I think that this is going to be my last comment on the site for a while. I need a break and I need to work on some real life stuff. This thread is just a piece of straw. I'm not closing my account or flaming out. I'm just out of here until next time. I think my hide has worn a little too thin.

I've said a lot of acrimonious things I'd like to take back from my comments. If I've ever stepped on your toes or if I've ever gotten all up in your grill and made you feel bad - I'm sorry. It's not my goal or intent. My words get in the way of my meaning sometimes. I mean very, very well. I want everyone to have everything they want from life.

Thanks to everyone that has been an inspiration. Keep on keepin' on.

Be well. Don't be passive.

Your dreams are real. You should follow them.
posted by loquacious at 2:08 PM on September 14, 2009 [7 favorites]


Peace out loquacious! Good luck with everything.
posted by Mister_A at 2:10 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


And as long as we're being wacky, I'd really like to see a duet between Lady Gaga and Keyboard Cat. With Debbie Gibson on backup vocals. And a spoken interlude from Kanye about how the All Your Base song was much better.

Speaking of which, I know they're trying to be the Human League, but I have to admit that I really love La Roux. The little "oo-oo-oo-oooooo"s during "In For the Kill" give me goosebumps.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:11 PM on September 14, 2009


After watching jacquilynne's link, I think I've got Kanye's schtick figured out. You know how sometimes in the middle of a WWF match, some other wrassler uninvolved with the match at hand will come running in and fuck everything up? Kanye West is the pop music equivalent of that.

You watch. Next time he disagrees with some award show's decision, he's gonna come running in there with a folding chair and smash the winner across the back with it.
posted by EatTheWeak at 2:12 PM on September 14, 2009 [5 favorites]


Wait––who has an "all your base" song?
posted by Mister_A at 2:12 PM on September 14, 2009


I am [x] for [ ] not for LOQUACIOUS

I am [x] for [ ] not for LADY GAGA reason [she so crazy]

I [ ] care [x] do not care at all about KANEY WEST
posted by everichon at 2:14 PM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


i still find myself annoyed that the FPP was so poorly constructed on what could have been a great topic.

for other VMA freakouts (the straw that broke RATMs back) see Tim Bob
posted by nadawi at 2:15 PM on September 14, 2009


How is something "pretty fucking awesome" when it happens multiple times each night, in every Broadway show ever staged, live, without sneaky-sneaky video cuts?

maybe because it is precisely an homage to those dance routines, combined with a really great recontextualizing of the black gay dance style called J-setting, that looks so clever and fun it made thousands of every kind of person imitate it in their living room without shame?

Just guessing.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:26 PM on September 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


Be well, loquacious.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:30 PM on September 14, 2009


Also, I am only skimming this thread because I haven't watched True Blood yet.

Ok then, I'll refrain from posting any spoilers about last nights episode except to ask; what was up with that giant fucking robot? Didn't that seem out of place to anyone else? I mean we've had vampires and psychics and serial killers, do we really need steampunk styled alien technology?

It just seems like they're grasping for plot coherence at this point.
posted by quin at 2:32 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


I was kinda shocked when the smoke monster attacked Sam and Bill went back in time to when the plane first crashed on the island.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:39 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


the Salvatore/Lafayette thing was just too much, if you know what I mean.
posted by The Whelk at 2:54 PM on September 14, 2009


(the straw that broke RATMs back)

I liked that one. The stage prop was shaped like the head of the Statue of Liberty. It needed to be highlighted and pushed into the faces of every participant and spectator of that inane corporate circle jerk right smack dab in the year that changed fucking everything. Dude is a freaking prophet.

Or maybe dude was just drunk or crazy or somethin'.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:03 PM on September 14, 2009


As kids who grew up with Michael Jackson in the 80's, my husband and I both kind of took him for granted. He was everywhere in our youth and always turning out hit after hit.

As parents of young kids now, approaching 40, we actually tuned into the VMA's and watched the re-run after seeing the various headlines about Kanye showing his ass.

We've been out of this pop thing for a while now, not too clued in to what the kids are listening to...

After watching the show, we both have a newly found ( hopefully rediscovered) respect and admiration for MJ's talent and genius. We had gotten complacent but seeing him and the tribute up next to what is considered cutting edge.....wow. Really opened our eyes to what the music world has lost.
posted by pearlybob at 3:04 PM on September 14, 2009


Heh. I was just saying to someone that I wish I'd done an MJ post while he was still alive... mainly to annoy the "OMG pop contamination!" crowd.
posted by Artw at 3:16 PM on September 14, 2009


the Salvatore/Lafayette thing was just too much, if you know what I mean.

Now that is gay sex that America can get behind.
posted by middleclasstool at 3:19 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Be well loquacious and do come back.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:20 PM on September 14, 2009


man i don't care one way or another but that beyonce video is a million times better than that taylor swift thing

KANYE WAS RIGHT
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:33 PM on September 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


I am also going to take some time off.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:38 PM on September 14, 2009


I'm back.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:38 PM on September 14, 2009 [10 favorites]


Don't be passive.
Had to get that last shot at the Taoists in. For shame!
Come back refreshed and cheerful when you're good and ready, good sir.
posted by Abiezer at 3:42 PM on September 14, 2009


I'm not sure if I've changed or if MetaFilter changed. Now it feels like I'm wearing a sandwich board covered in gibberish.

See you around.
posted by loquacious


Oh, hey, fuck this. Who the hell is going to rant now? I work for a goddam living, and I wear out after a paragraph or two anyway, besides I'm a bonafide $5N00b so no one listens to what I say when I rant anyway, and hey, FUCK THIS.

You people BRING HIM BACK HERE TO ME RIGHT NOW!
posted by Devils Rancher at 3:58 PM on September 14, 2009


A friend and I entered a drawing to get tickets to the Muse show. But I was too old (apparently anyone outside the "I am 18-24 and consider myself more attractive than the norm" demographic need not apply for tickets to the VMA:s). So instead I tried watching the show for the first time in more than 10 years.

Conclusion: Yup, definitely too old. It was a complete train wreck of a show, and I couldn't even sit through the whole thing. Kanye just played into the tone of the show for fun and profit...
posted by gemmy at 4:51 PM on September 14, 2009


All I have to say is that if Kanye West is going to steal Ol' Dirty's bit, he could at least have the decency to be addicted to crack.

You know, for the children.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 4:53 PM on September 14, 2009


I just want to tell you both good luck. We're all counting on you.
posted by not_on_display at 5:07 PM on September 14, 2009 [5 favorites]


You know, if you get some Old Monterey Shredded Beef taquitos, nuke them for about 2 minutes then top them with swet chili sauce, Oscar Mayer bacon bits and sharp cheddar shreds, then nuke for a minute thirty-seconds more, and serve with sour cream, chipotle ranch dressing and maybe a squirt of lime juce...you've got yourself a tasty quick dinner.

Also, read this book and you can comfortably ignore all this silly psuedodrama for the tween set.
posted by jonmc at 5:08 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Oh, please. I'm the last person to say that MTV makes great stuff, but this post-ironic "we all need to express ourselves" rhetoric is just stupid, and it's as fake as anything else in the world. People pay money for what they like and enjoy, and sometimes that's Kanye's pretend-drama and sometimes it's faux-authentic singer-songwriter angst and sometimes it's Kermit the frog. That's not going to change, and it doesn't make someone uncultured or an idiot if they don't make all the entertainment they need all by themselves.

Stop yelling the cultural equivalent of "wake up, sheeple!" It's tedious.


It's the artistic equivalent of fast food, tho. People like what they hear and all they hear is the lowest common denominator of what will make money. Occasionally a real artist will manage to break thru and do something genuine, but that's about as common as Halley's Comet.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:18 PM on September 14, 2009


Oh, please, there were plenty of talented people there last night.
posted by kathrineg at 5:20 PM on September 14, 2009


Everytime I think about MTV, which isn't very often, I think, "wow it really sucks now." And then I remember, "Oh, yea. It sucked from the beginning, just in different ways."
posted by octothorpe at 5:23 PM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Oh, and since I apparently completely missed big chunk of the middle of this thread...

Bye loquacious. Hope you find a cure for what's ailin' you (or ailin' us, you know, whatever) and you come back soon.

posted by quin at 5:35 PM on September 14, 2009


See Pete Townsend kicking Abbie Hoffman off the stage at Woodstock. She shoulda smacked the shit outta him with a moonman statue.
posted by fixedgear at 5:36 PM on September 14, 2009


Kids today.
posted by Burhanistan at 5:45 PM on September 14, 2009


Occasionally a real artist will manage to break thru and do something genuine, but that's about as common as Halley's Comet.

Bullshit.

I mean, seriously, bullshit. As katherineg says, there are lots of "real artists" and "genuine" works of entertainment in mainstream culture. Not everyone likes everything, but the idea that there is some secret cabal of "real artists" that the sheeple are just too brainwashed to get stops being interesting or profound at about age 14.
posted by Sidhedevil at 5:55 PM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


Good luck, loq. You'll be missed.
posted by Kwine at 5:59 PM on September 14, 2009


I honestly didn't know who Taylor Swift was before today.

Kanye West might be an asshole, but he's talented. I mean, listen to his lyrics on "Knock You Down" or "Run This Town." Better than anything else out there. (Which I guess ain't saying much, but...)

Oh. This is MeTa. Yeah, crap post. Head on over to ontd with that shit.
posted by desjardins at 6:15 PM on September 14, 2009


I guess now is as good a time as ever to annoce my break from Metafilet.

I need some time away to deal with Real Life Stuff and you people are just to damn distracting., as evidensed by my comment count.

So! Keep calm and carry on. I will retrun. And all that jazz.

*powers up machine*

And for the record I never liked
posted by The Whelk at 6:18 PM on September 14, 2009


One time, one summer, I thought THIS was the greatest video ever. I was prolly high. On mousse fumes.
posted by mds35 at 6:21 PM on September 14, 2009


I mean, seriously, bullshit. As katherineg says, there are lots of "real artists" and "genuine" works of entertainment in mainstream culture. Not everyone likes everything, but the idea that there is some secret cabal of "real artists" that the sheeple are just too brainwashed to get stops being interesting or profound at about age 14

I really hope you aren't counting Lady Gaga in that group of real artists.

But honestly. Strip away the producers. Strip away the technical gadgetry. Put aside the flashy and/or barely there costumes (Gaga, I'm looking at YOU.)

What's really left, with most of them? Really?

And to the ones left that do have talent-are their handlers really letting them go to the cutting edge with it, or are they guided-or forced-to dumb it down for the masses?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:30 PM on September 14, 2009


Oh hey, me and mathowie and cortex are all hanging out at my house!

this is the singularity isn't it
posted by desjardins at 6:32 PM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


We are now all brains in vats, yes. IA IA KURZWEIL FHTAGN!
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:39 PM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


But honestly. Strip away the producers. Strip away the technical gadgetry. Put aside the flashy and/or barely there costumes (Gaga, I'm looking at YOU.)

strip away the producers, technical gadgetry, & flashy costumes on gaga? i'd love to, because then you're left with a great voice, proficiency over the piano and an interesting eye towards lounge music.


paparazzi
just dance
poker face (every time she does this version it's different. the many treatments she gives this song is what finally won me over on her)
posted by nadawi at 6:52 PM on September 14, 2009 [8 favorites]


But honestly. Strip away the producers. Strip away the technical gadgetry. Put aside the flashy and/or barely there costumes (Gaga, I'm looking at YOU.)

What's really left, with most of them? Really?


Tuneful hooks, interesting takes on musical tradition, personal style. Just like whatever singer you like, only with higher production values and more pantsless famejunkie-ing.

I don't know who you listen to, but I can guarantee you that if any of your favorite artists are professional musicians, someone has in print bemoaned their appalling lack of talent and coming from the cookie-cutter star-making machinery. This includes Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell, and Bruce Springsteen. This includes the Beatles and the Rolling Stones. This includes Johnny Cash and Garth Brooks.

Yes, lots of only medium talents get famous because of luck, promotion, or a combination of both. But that's the exact same way that every single astonishing talent of the 20th and 21st centuries has, to date, become famous as well.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:19 PM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


I'd much rather entertainment news than every US political blip.
posted by cillit bang at 12:39 PM on September 14

How do you handle this?

Obama calls Kanye a "jackass."
posted by inconsequentialist at 7:37 PM on September 14, 2009


Oh god, now he's going to have beers with him...
posted by Artw at 8:06 PM on September 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


man i don't care one way or another but that beyonce video is a million times better than that taylor swift thing

KANYE WAS RIGHT


At last, the truth comes out.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:09 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


hmm old ladies don't like lady gaga you say

truly the mysteries of the universe are unbounded
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:56 PM on September 14, 2009


every time she does this version it's different. the many treatments she gives this song is what finally won me over on her

It was Poker Face that did it for me, too.

I wanna roll with him a hard pair we will be
A little gambling is fun when you're with me
Russian Roulette is not the same without a gun
And baby when it's love if it's not rough it isn't fun


Those are fantastic pop lyrics.
posted by empath at 9:10 PM on September 14, 2009


I noticed something interesting here:

Most of the people for deletion have made few or no FPPs; most of those against the deletion (I include myself) have made many contributions to the front page.

Folks, making an FPP is hard. Multi-link FPPs are even harder, as it's difficult to both construct a narrative, and insert links into that narrative at appropriate places, without compromising the narrative thrust.

Many of my multi-link FPPs take a couple of hours to put together. And most multi-link FPPs don't reward that effort, as inevitably only one link (at most) becomes the subject of discussion. As a result, there are any number of potential FPPs I've passed on doing, and more where I've decided just to link to a single page, even though I could have fleshed it out.

Sometimes someone else comes along and fleshes out your FPP.

Next time you -- especially you who don't or only rarely post to the front page -- decide the poster didn't provide a "good enough" post, maybe you guys could supply your own effort and add some more links in your comments, rather than just flagging. Your flags are just encouraging me to not waste effort on FPPs.
posted by orthogonality at 9:13 PM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Got no problems w/ GaGa. Poker Face is a perfect earworm of a pop song - merely hearing it's name gets it stuck in my head now. Only became truly aware of her like, a month ago. I heard somewhere (Twitter, maybe?) there was a theory floating around that she was really Grant Morrison. I kinda want that to be true.
posted by EatTheWeak at 9:24 PM on September 14, 2009


If it makes me some kind of hipster to, oh, actually want some culture, talent and creativity in what people are trying to pass off as culture, well, fuck it all. Hand me that ironic t-shirt, I'll wear that fucker. Sideburns and Pabst, here I come!


It makes you a hipster because you want to define what culture, talent and creativity are for everyone else.

If you feel Kayne West is an overrated product of the music industry hype machine then, well yeah I couldn't agree with you more but that doesn't mean I'm going to flag a FPP because it's about Kayne West.

It was a newsworthy moment. People are talking about it. My local newscast (NBC) led with this story tonight.

This is the sort of thing people want to talk about, why would I deny them that just because I don't want to participate. Who are you to make that decision for them?

P.S. While I'm not much of a fan of country/pop music, I like Taylor Swift. She comes across as a genuinely nice person. If you what that video (not that you ever would) you can see that she is absolutely devastated right before they cut away and I felt bad for her.
posted by Bonzai at 9:35 PM on September 14, 2009


Good heavens, what a tempest in a teapot.

-Pop culture matters, whether it's impoverished or not. The economic and political conditions of our lives are inhabited by mass mediation, and burying your heads in books doesn't make you an activist on that matter. Being informed about pop culture is a GOOD.

- That still wasn't a good enough post on this topic, considering the speed at which remixes of the video sprang up all over, and the subsequent Obama comment. A really cool meta-pop post deserved to be made.

- Who even decides the VMAs? Whoever they are, apparently they like sweet, naive romance narratives to culturally-inflected dance videos. That's how the mainstream taste in the USA goes too. ADAPT to the fact.

- One of the best videos of all time, Kanye? Uh, that's debateable. Would it be in the top 100? Time will tell. It's no Thriller, Undertow, Take On Me, or even Right Now. But maybe it's just because I do have a hangup on the icky "if you liked it then you shoulda pissed gold on it" thing.

I get real life loquacious for a friend. I'm a lucky fucker. I do hope he writes more and shares more.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:02 PM on September 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


This is such a huge waste of time and we could really we working for other things, don't you think

A Long Long time Was A Very Long Time.
posted by The Bizzaro Whelk at 10:06 PM on September 14, 2009


I love loquacious too. He was one of the mefites I liked best when I was just a lurker here so so many years ago. And I think he is right, mefi has changed a bit. It feels more balkanized now. It was always contentious, but it used to go sideways much more frequently, where now it just seems to go back and forth. There was a cool freak vibe here once that seems to have gone underground. I hope it, and loquacious, comes back one day.
posted by vronsky at 10:21 PM on September 14, 2009


KANYE WAS RIGHT

The new Republican slogan.
posted by dirigibleman at 11:03 PM on September 14, 2009


> Next time you -- especially you who don't or only rarely post to the front page -- decide the poster didn't provide a "good enough" post, maybe you guys could supply your own effort and add some more links in your comments, rather than just flagging. Your flags are just encouraging me to not waste effort on FPPs.

Surely what qualifies one to judge a post is whether they read posts, not whether they make them. I appreciate the "you'd know how hard it is" sentiment, as it informs how sensitive you should be when criticizing, but I think it's a basically weak argument meant to shut critics down rather than address what they're saying. It's eventually trotted out against critics of any form, be it music, cinema, literature, performance, or what have you. A good critic is served well by understanding the process, but I can still tell crap from awesome by simple comparison, and how hard the latter is to produce is irrelevant.

But let's be honest: making a thin post to a popular news item is not hard work. When someone tells you your lovingly-crafted multi-link post is a piece of shit, then you might have a point. I've never seen this happen.

I never post to the blue because I'm impressed with what's already there and don't feel I have anything better to offer, the same reason I don't make movies, put out an album, or publish a novel. My trade is programming, and I do contribute to AskMe when I have the time. If I give horrible advice and someone calls that out, I'm not going to say "but programming is hard!" Well, so?

That said, I skip stuff I don't care for instead of flagging it, and wish more people would do that unless it's spam or offensive. In this case, I think the I-Don't-Own-A-TV crowd get a little white-knuckled when mefi and the mainstream pop world cross paths, so a thin-ish post of that nature is doomed. What baffles me is that this post wasn't even thin -- it seemed to garner flags just because of the topic. Not cool, people.
posted by cj_ at 11:05 PM on September 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


since we're talking about Kanye and videos, I think this is a good a place as any to mention Kanye's awesomest video. He may be a jackass,but he also gave us Kanyevel Knievel

Theman definitely has delusions of grandeur. Channeled properly, said delusions can be quite entertaining.
posted by billyfleetwood at 11:42 PM on September 14, 2009


"Knock Knock"
"Who's there?"
"Interrupting Kanye West"
"Interrupt..."
"Yo, I’m really happy for you, I’ll let you finish, but Beyoncé has one of the best videos of all time. One of the best videos of all time!"
posted by The Devil Tesla at 1:10 AM on September 15, 2009 [6 favorites]


...because various defenders of MeFis indie street cred shat in this thread and presumably flagged it a lot?

What the motherfuck?! Pretty presumptuous, Artw.

It was the thinnest post possible about something vacuous and less than inconsequential.

I've got some of the least "indie street cred" music, clothes, taste in TV shows, etc., and I thought the post was pathetic. So I flagged it hard, hard like someone on a fixie getting hit by a bus going 50 mph.
posted by ambient2 at 2:22 AM on September 15, 2009


Andy and Jason? Every one of those scenes was comedy gold.

I'm really hoping for a spin-off called Stackhouse and Bellefleur. In it, Andy and Jason move to LA and become Private Eyes. Also there is Lafayette.
posted by Rock Steady at 3:39 AM on September 15, 2009


jessamyn: Oh hey, me and mathowie and cortex are all hanging out at my house!

Did you play Parcheesi?
posted by Kattullus at 4:13 AM on September 15, 2009 [2 favorites]


Is parcheesi the one with the goat blood and the Aramaic and the mescalin and the thundering terror of the metatron's instructions?
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:03 AM on September 15, 2009 [3 favorites]


With dice, yes.
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:59 AM on September 15, 2009 [3 favorites]


I'm really not sure how I got involved, but I suspect it had something to do with the mescaline.
posted by aramaic at 6:02 AM on September 15, 2009 [1 favorite]


I really didn't understand the scene where Sam transformed into a blue elephino and the Beatles rode him off the cliff. Is that a setup for next season? I haven't read any of the books, so maybe I'm missing something.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:10 AM on September 15, 2009


I really didn't understand the scene where Sam transformed into a blue elephino and the Beatles rode him off the cliff.

Now I'm really confused. Was this after they threw the ring in the crack of doom?
posted by marxchivist at 6:16 AM on September 15, 2009


> I honestly didn't know who Taylor Swift was before today.

And that PROVES that Taylor Swift is a no-talent hack!!
posted by languagehat at 6:23 AM on September 15, 2009 [1 favorite]


Obama calls Kanye a "jackass."

I love our new Super Obama Overlord.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:50 AM on September 15, 2009


Now who am I going to goof around with?
posted by Mister_A at 7:00 AM on September 15, 2009


What baffles me is that this post wasn't even thin -- it seemed to garner flags just because of the topic. Not cool, people.

You don't even know who flagged it or why, except for those of us who came in here to tell you about it. I loved the whole thing Kanye thing, wanted to talk about it, but it really wasn't a good post and I knew there would be a better post in a few days' time. The gun was jumped.

I mean, think of the macros! The animated gifs! The internet arguments! Obama!
posted by kathrineg at 7:29 AM on September 15, 2009


Hm. Needs more Gaga peen.

(La Gaga's habit of making her every appearance sillier, more over-the-top, and more ludicrous than the last is just what I like most about her. She's like Björk, in that respect, but more purely playful, lacking Björk's aspirations to high art and couture. Like a comic who's not-so-funny joke becomes hilarious with repetition, Lady Gaga begins to look more and more like some Kaufman-esque (and Kaufman-worthy) stunt. Shorter me: She's funny!)
posted by octobersurprise at 8:03 AM on September 15, 2009 [2 favorites]


Lady Gaga begins to look more and more like some Kaufman-esque (and Kaufman-worthy) stunt

Well, I'd be more inclined to compare her to Alice Cooper, especially as she's a protege of Lady Starlight, who's pretty directly influenced by that magical period of time when disco was dead, and yet every heavy metal band was wearing glittery make-up and tight pants...
posted by muddgirl at 8:08 AM on September 15, 2009 [1 favorite]


The principle, though, is don't shit all over threads with your lazy, "ironic", jaded, boring, navelgazing hipster crap.

That's what this site is for.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:22 AM on September 15, 2009




Yeah, definitely took my penicillin. *burp* guh.
posted by loquacious at 9:58 AM on September 15, 2009 [2 favorites]


Doh! *vanishes*
posted by loquacious at 10:05 AM on September 15, 2009


From that LA Times Blog:

"You Belong With Me" and "Single Ladies" have both become mega-hits partly because women have embraced them as anthems of empowerment.

what
posted by kathrineg at 10:19 AM on September 15, 2009 [2 favorites]


The song's ubiquitous refrain, "If you liked it then you should have put a ring on it," makes the point explicit: the ultimate satisfaction for this kind of lady is to be made into an object, a glittery "it."

I'll see your "what" and raise you a WHUT, kathrineg.
posted by shiu mai baby at 10:26 AM on September 15, 2009


Here's what I don't understand: if no one's put a ring on it, doesn't it follow that no one likes it?
posted by Metroid Baby at 10:34 AM on September 15, 2009


Metroid Baby: you missed the point of the lyrics. See, the freshly-broken-up Beyonce is out in the club with her friends, getting plenty of attention from other dudes, when her dog of an ex makes an appearance. B's her hotness, overall awesomeness, and said attention from other dudes bugs the ex, who realizes he's made a mistake and starts freaking out. B isn't having any of it, though; hence: "if you liked it you shoulda put a ring on it."

FIN.
posted by shiu mai baby at 10:41 AM on September 15, 2009 [2 favorites]


Oh, okay! That's what I get for only listening to the chorus. I'm just here to dance.
posted by Metroid Baby at 10:51 AM on September 15, 2009


Now we have two threads on this subject, which is really the best outcome I could have imagined.
posted by smackfu at 11:12 AM on September 15, 2009


I don't get why people are assuming the threadshitters were hipsters; the hipsters love them some Kanye.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:16 AM on September 15, 2009


Say, I just noticed Lady Gaga has a tATu poster hanging up behind her in these videos. I don't think Kanye would have tATu posters up in his office. Advantage: Gaga.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:24 PM on September 15, 2009 [2 favorites]


Hey Eat the Weak! do you follow my boyfriend and I on Twitter? Or do you have some kind of Stasi-esque listening post installed in our house? because Sunday night we were on the phone with kittens for breakfast theorizing that Lady Gaga...

a. is Grant Morrison
b. is possibly the head of her own Invisibles cell
c. is a myrmidon
d. some combination of all of the above.

The best part (well, after I tweeted about that, and theorized about Lady Gaga thinking she was Dale Bozzio going to the Carrie prom) was when boyfriend did his impersonation of what David Lynch would say when encountering Lady Gaga for the first time........oh man, I wish I'd had the camera out.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 12:44 PM on September 15, 2009 [1 favorite]


The answer? Horse suits.

I agree.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:03 PM on September 15, 2009


And actually, re: muddgirl's comment above, some of that conversation was devoted to Lady Gaga's possible appropriation of Marilyn Manson tropes, which I allowed was true only inasmuch as Manson's tropes were originally Alice Cooper's tropes, because at the VMAs she was totally going for Alice Cooper (by way of Bowie and, like...Bjork?). Mind you, I'm speaking here of the stage stuff, not the music, which I find kind of boring in its disco form, but do agree is quite nice when she sings it sorta cabaret-style.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:22 PM on September 15, 2009


The song's ubiquitous refrain, "If you liked it then you should have put a ring on it," makes the point explicit: the ultimate satisfaction for this kind of lady is to be made into an object, a glittery "it."

Yah, yah, this is an interpretation of these lyrics, but there's one that's a lot more personal: Beyonce had been dating/ with Jay-Z for years; then she released this song; then about three months' later they were married.

Sometimes people release songs purely to make a personal point - regardless of the bigger picture, and I think this is one of those songs...
posted by goo at 4:45 PM on September 15, 2009 [1 favorite]


And now I'll return to contemplating Hegelian matrices.
posted by goo at 4:50 PM on September 15, 2009


Well, that was fast. Kanye LOLcat.
posted by jamaro at 6:09 PM on September 15, 2009


The memes keep getting dumber.
posted by Burhanistan at 6:25 PM on September 15, 2009


bitter-girl.com - Yeah! That must've been your feed through which the Gaga-is-Morrison theory entered my head! I couldn't find the theory directly stated anywhere online, but Googling "Lady Gaga"+"Grant Morrison" did turn up a suspicious number of pages that mentioned both ... that, and the growing suspicion that this notion had just planted itself in my mind somehow only strengthened the reality-bending possibility that Gaga and Morrison were one and the same.

This theory being true would make my year. I would absolutely love it if one of the greatest comics writers to ever live and one of the most confusing producers of club-pop turned out to be the same person. Maybe Gaga's entire career has been the last metachapter in Final Crisis.
posted by EatTheWeak at 7:05 PM on September 15, 2009 [1 favorite]


Clearly, I was wrong. THIS is the greatest video ever made.
posted by mds35 at 7:38 PM on September 15, 2009


Or maybe this one.
posted by mds35 at 7:41 PM on September 15, 2009


When we finally get time machines, somebody please remind me to go back to 1988 and slap myself.
posted by mds35 at 7:42 PM on September 15, 2009


Burhanistan: "The memes keep getting dumber."
posted by idiopath at 8:03 PM on September 15, 2009 [3 favorites]


Yo dawg I heard you like recursive memes so we put a Yo this is a great meme and I'ma let you finish but Yo dawg I heard you like recursive memes so we put a Yo this is a great meme and I'ma let you finish but Yo dawg I heard you like recursive memes so we put a Yo this is a great meme and I'ma let you finish but Yo dawg was one of the greatest memes of all time in your recursive meme so you can annoy people while you let them finish was one of the greatest memes of all time in your recursive meme so you can annoy people while you let them finish was one of the greatest memes of all time in your recursive meme so you can annoy people while you let them finish.

I think I did that right?
posted by Metroid Baby at 8:23 PM on September 15, 2009 [13 favorites]


Metroid Baby: "I think I did that right?"

I think you just broke my mental stack, and every time I try to check what kind of shell code you may have put in my head when you achieved the buffer overrun it gets me again.
posted by idiopath at 8:40 PM on September 15, 2009 [2 favorites]


I love how this has gone from "current event" to "macro meme" to "old and busted joke" in such a short span of time. I don't know if the memes are "getting dumber," but they're absolutely getting faster.
posted by EatTheWeak at 9:05 PM on September 15, 2009


The song's ubiquitous refrain, "If you liked it then you should have put a ring on it," makes the point explicit: the ultimate satisfaction for this kind of lady is to be made into an object, a glittery "it."

What a load of politically correct horseshit. Wanting a life long relationship = wanting to be made into an object? As opposed to just having him sleep with her, I suppose.

That refrain is not a literal, logical statement. Beyonce' does not really think he is liking her ring finger, for example.
posted by msalt at 3:24 PM on September 16, 2009


Beyoncé does not really think he is liking her ring finger, for example.

...or does she?
posted by Sys Rq at 3:28 PM on September 16, 2009


Kanyefilter.
posted by idiopath at 3:53 PM on September 16, 2009


Hitler hates this whole incident.
posted by msalt at 4:44 PM on September 16, 2009


Barack Obama don't like Kanye people.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:53 PM on September 16, 2009


"If you liked it, then you should have put a ring on it" is bothersome to me for reasons that boil down to this: she is granting him total agency in the past events, and volunteering herself as an object, in her critical appraisal of his imagined perspective and actions. If you want to read it as "if you liked [me] so much, then you ahould have [asked me to marry you]" is the realistic translation, but for some reason, B chooses to write herself and her... propositionability? out of the scenario. "You shoud have put a ring on it" implies that he could have, by his choosing.

You can take it as wry, as mockery of his misuse of her as less worthy, more of a thing, than she really deserves, but that is made more difficult to do in the context of such a sexualized advertisement of the object of her body. "IT" and "ME" remain strongly synonymous.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:34 PM on September 17, 2009


She's not going to sell many albums wearing a burqa.
posted by Burhanistan at 12:37 PM on September 17, 2009


Ambrosia Voyeur: "B chooses to write herself and her... propositionability? out of the scenario."

I see that as the irony of the song's stance. She is simultaneously proclaiming the importance of and denying the reality of her own agency, her own ability to choose who she is or what defines her.
posted by idiopath at 12:43 PM on September 17, 2009


My read, oblivious perversion of the text or not, was that he wasn't able to sexually satisfy her. If he liked it, it being "having sex with her," he needed to put a ring on it, it being his cock.

As a song about cock rings, I think it's far more successful.
posted by klangklangston at 1:18 PM on September 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


she is granting him total agency in the past events, and volunteering as an object..."You should have put a ring on it" implies that he could have, by his choosing.

I'm not sure I follow. Of course he could have proposed. Are you upset she didn't propose instead? Why, if he wasn't into it?
"Volunteering herself as an object"? I don't think so. The message of the song seems pretty clearly to be "Too late, you had your chance."

"It" works for two reasons -- the ambiguity is interesting, and rhythmically it's 100 times better. This is a dance track -- try singing "If you like me then you should have put a ring on me" (or "should have just proposed to me"). Those scan, but the song needs a percussive hard consonant at the end of that line.
posted by msalt at 1:20 PM on September 17, 2009


"It" is synecdoche anyway.

(i finally used that in a sentence)
posted by empath at 1:23 PM on September 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


> Of course he could have proposed. Are you upset she didn't propose instead? Why, if he wasn't into it?

If he did, then she could have been the one to decide if he could "put a ring on it." But she skips that juncture where the option rested with her. She doesn't ask or get asked. He simply "should have put a ring on it." Sounds more like a collar, there.

I agree it's ironic, I just don't trust B or her audience to grok the decontructed postfeminist performative irony which I find valuable in it, in these hardblingen times, with Gwen Stefani disavowing feminism and Katy Perry, role model, and all.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:38 PM on September 17, 2009


It's actually about an astronomers failure to give Uranus full consideration as one of the outer planets. Like, he's all about depicting Saturns flashy and, let's face it, somewhat whorish rings in astronomical diagrams, but for Uranus he just does a blue dot. Revenge will come in the form of a train of comets carefully redirected into the local gravity well.
posted by Artw at 1:48 PM on September 17, 2009


While the simultaneous avowal and disavowal of agency is certainly ironic, I would hardly call it feminist. It is at least as much antifeminist as it is feminist, if not moreso.

I appreciate the song in terms of irony of philosophic grounding, but not at all as a feminist piece.
posted by idiopath at 1:50 PM on September 17, 2009


idiopath: "I see that as the irony of the song's stance. She is simultaneously proclaiming the importance of and denying the reality of her own agency..."

More specifically, she says in the bridge:

Pull me into your arms
Say I'm the one you own.
If you dont, you'll be alone
And like a ghost I'll be gone.

posted by team lowkey at 2:07 PM on September 17, 2009


"It's actually about an astronomers failure to give Uranus full consideration as one of the outer planets. Like, he's all about depicting Saturns flashy and, let's face it, somewhat whorish rings in astronomical diagrams, but for Uranus he just does a blue dot. Revenge will come in the form of a train of comets carefully redirected into the local gravity well."

Uranus has rings.

Also, you should wipe better.
posted by klangklangston at 2:27 PM on September 17, 2009


Hey, WE know that, Mr. Shitty Astronomer knows that, but does he respect the rings by drawing them in the diagram? No, he does not.

Also this is a perfectly serious conversation and should not be derailed by UrRectum jokes.
posted by Artw at 2:30 PM on September 17, 2009


If he did, then she could have been the one to decide if he could "put a ring on it." But she skips that juncture where the option rested with her. She doesn't ask or get asked. He simply "should have put a ring on it." Sounds more like a collar, there.

Ah, now I get it. Unless of course she only had a few words to make her point, and used "put a ring on it" as shorthand for "offer me a ring which I would then decide whether or not I would allow you to actually place on my finger." Cause that would really butcher the rhythm. And it fits the "too late" theme for her to taunt him by implicitly revealing that she would have accepted.

Because we are certainly all too feminist to acknowledge that, in the mass audience this song reached, that the percentage of single women desiring marriage might be somewhat higher than the percentage of single men who do.
posted by msalt at 3:23 PM on September 17, 2009


Well, she does repeat it a ton. She could have mixed it up a little if she wanted to tell some other story.

If you liked it then you shoulda put a ring on it
You shoulda used your head and not your thing a bit
I woulda treated you just like a king, to wit:
If you liked it then you shoulda put a ring on it....

Because we are certainly all too feminist to acknowledge that, in the mass audience this song reached, that the percentage of single women desiring marriage might be somewhat higher than the percentage of single men who do.

Uh. I acknowledge it, I just don't relate to it or give a fuck about it.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:37 PM on September 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


I don't think Single Laides is a feminist anthem or meant to be a feminist anthem, but it's defintely seen as a woman's anthem. I see it as our generation's I Will Survive.

You shoulda used your head and not your thing a bit
I woulda treated you just like a king, to wit:


Someone needs to record this.
posted by muddgirl at 4:05 PM on September 17, 2009


I like that analog, muddgirl. I'd like an anthem about leaving politics in the coatroom at the disco, personally! ;P

in other words, my reaction to Single Ladies' lyrics is mine alone, tm, all rights reserved, poet to he sisterhood, etc. etc. Amen.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 4:58 PM on September 17, 2009


Uh. I acknowledge [the percentage of single women desiring marriage might be somewhat higher than single men], I just don't relate to it or give a fuck about it.

OK. Then it might be overthinking this. For a lot of the audience, the shorthand is just acknowledging reality and cutting to the chase, not surrendering agency.

You shoulda used your head and not your thing a bit -- good but needs a couple more syllables. How about:

If you liked it then you shoulda put a ring on it
I woulda treated you just like a sexy king, to wit.
Now you're lonely cause you can't see what's behind a tit.
If you liked it then you shoulda put a ring on it
posted by msalt at 5:31 PM on September 17, 2009


msalt: "Ah, now I get it. Unless of course she only had a few words to make her point, and used "put a ring on it" as shorthand for "offer me a ring which I would then decide whether or not I would allow you to actually place on my finger." Cause that would really butcher the rhythm. And it fits the "too late" theme for her to taunt him by implicitly revealing that she would have accepted. "

The point is that none of the language indicates that she had any choice in the matter. The entire theme is that he can't complain about her actions, because he doesn't own her. The implicit message is that he could have owned her. If he liked it and had put a ring on it. Now someone else wants it, and he can't have it.

It's got nothing to do with desiring marriage being objectifying. It's that she continually refers to herself in terms of an object. I don't think there's any ambiguity to what "it" is. It's her body. So while the overall anthem-ness of it seems liberating (she has control over her body, and he doesn't), the way she expresses it is paradoxical. She only has control over her body because he didn't take it from her. It's not like "I Will Survive" where the message is that she's liberating herself. The message is that he failed to put a collar on her.

And, yeah, that's a lot to read into dumb pop song, but it's a valid reaction to be a little skeeved by it.
posted by team lowkey at 5:35 PM on September 17, 2009


Ah, now I get it. Unless of course she only had a few words to make her point, and used "put a ring on it" as shorthand for "offer me a ring which I would then decide whether or not I would allow you to actually place on my finger." Cause that would really butcher the rhythm. And it fits the "too late" theme for her to taunt him by implicitly revealing that she would have accepted

She wanted to get married. Jay-Z was dragging his feet. So she released this very catchy tune, with a very sexy dance clip and she got what what she wanted. That's it, there is no deeper meaning. She's talking about what she would do, if he didn't fuckin finally ask her to marry him.

He took the bait, they're now married, story over.
posted by goo at 5:48 PM on September 17, 2009


"power to the sisterhood" via iPhone in a train station bar.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 5:53 PM on September 17, 2009


Also, burhanistan, bring on the burqa-wearing chanteuses, I will support them!!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 5:57 PM on September 17, 2009


"Power to the people. Power to the people at home" sing it, my sisters! via wee eeepc in my living room.
posted by goo at 5:58 PM on September 17, 2009


MetaFilter: I acknowledge it, I just don't relate to it or give a fuck about it.

Ambrosia Voyeur has it. I like the video, because I like dancing. But hoo boy is it weird that people seem to think of this song as a statement of female empowerment. I'll take "Shake that Ass, Bitch" anyday over this sort of glossy, inviting stealth anti-feminism.
posted by Methylviolet at 5:59 PM on September 17, 2009


Who ordered the Plate of Beyoncé?
posted by Sys Rq at 6:09 PM on September 17, 2009


But hoo boy is it weird that people seem to think of this song as a statement of female empowerment.

Yer they only would because they weren't listening to the lyrics or had seen the film clip - which I'm sure there is many but hey it's a big world.
posted by goo at 6:20 PM on September 17, 2009


Yer they only would because they weren't listening to the lyrics or had seen the film clip - which I'm sure there is many but hey it's a big world.

Yeah, and there are people who think Born in the USA is a good choice for a "conservative" anthem and Takin' Care of Business is a good song to use to sell office supplies. The clue, it is not strong with some people.
posted by immlass at 9:21 PM on September 17, 2009


Color me old fashioned, but how is some lady moving her hips around like she's either riding a gigantic penis or trying to realign her cervix while lamenting that some random dude didn't buy the cow because he was having the milk for free a pro-feminist kind of gesture?

Wait, please don't answer that.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:47 PM on September 17, 2009


The implicit message is that he could have owned her. If he liked it and had put a ring on it. ... She only has control over her body because he didn't take it from her.

Only if you constantly look at the world through the lens of your ideology. The song doesn't say any of that; it's ambigous and equally open to interpretation as "I generously offered you a tremendous deal, a lifelong loving relationship that included great sex with a gorgeous strong-willed woman, and you failed to step up. Too bad so sad." That's what I hear.

You're ignoring the usefulness of "it" to punctuate the rhythm of the song, but I guarantee you that Beyonce didn't. If she wanted to criticize him for not dominating her, there are much stronger and clearer ways to say that -- "Be a man", "couldn't handle me", etc.
posted by msalt at 9:53 PM on September 17, 2009 [1 favorite]


You are so right, msalt.
If she wanted to criticize him for not dominating her, there are much stronger and clearer ways to say that -- "Be a man", "couldn't handle me", "Pull me into your arms. Say I'm the one you own. If you dont, you'll be alone" FTFY.
posted by Methylviolet at 10:05 PM on September 17, 2009


msalt: "Only if you constantly look at the world through the lens of your ideology. The song doesn't say any of that; it's ambigous and equally open to interpretation as "I generously offered you a tremendous deal, a lifelong loving relationship that included great sex with a gorgeous strong-willed woman, and you failed to step up. Too bad so sad." That's what I hear."

Well, yes, that's what I heard, too. Until I actually paid attention to the lyrics. Don't get me wrong, it's a catchy song, and I also gave the benefit of the doubt on my initial listenings that "if you liked it then you should have put a ring on it" was just a shorthand catchy phrase to drive the song, and what she actually meant "You should have proposed; you missed out on a great thing". That was viewing it through the lens of my own ideology. I assumed that's what a woman would mean to say about what she wanted.

But listening to the lyrics doesn't bear that out. What she actually expresses is something else entirely.
posted by team lowkey at 12:29 AM on September 18, 2009


Dude, it's "I'm the one you want"

she does not say "own"

really

WHAT SONG ARE YOU LISTENING TO?
posted by kathrineg at 3:08 AM on September 18, 2009


She wants a hug from him, how is that inherently dominating?
posted by kathrineg at 3:08 AM on September 18, 2009


team lowkey: "I assumed that's what a woman would mean to say about what she wanted.

But listening to the lyrics doesn't bear that out. What she actually expresses is something else entirely.
"

How so?
posted by kathrineg at 3:09 AM on September 18, 2009


methylviolet, teamlowkey: you're thinking way too hard and too literally. "Own" rhymes with "alone", where "relationship of equals" kinda doesn't.
Do you REALLY think she is mocking him for not imposing patriarchal ownership upon her? Give me a fuckin' break.

Or check out the lyrics to the song "If I were a boy...." on the same album. Her stance in both songs is clear: "stupid shallow boys, thinking only with your dicks."
posted by msalt at 10:14 AM on September 18, 2009


kathrineg: "Dude, it's "I'm the one you want"
she does not say "own"
"

Maybe. The way she vocalizes it is yüwōn, which sounds like "you own" to me. The "w" sound could be the end of "you" or the beginning of "want", with the "t" dropped to rhyme it with alone and gone. I could see it either way.

kathrineg: "How so?"

I made my argument above about the use of objectifying language, and honestly I think I've already spent too much time on this. I'm not willing to go through a full textual analysis to try to convince anybody else of my interpretation. Suffice it to say, I grant that if you give the narrator the benefit of the doubt it could be a song about wanting a loving relationship, and people who want her to be saying that will hear that. But her actual word choices don't express it that way.

I only said anything at all because there were people saying it was totally crazy to see it in anything but a positive light. I disagree. But I've already had the damn thing stuck in my head for long enough, so I'll just concede. It's a beautiful empowering love song, that I'm going to have to scrub out of my brain with bleach. Or maybe ABBA. Whichever.
posted by team lowkey at 10:28 AM on September 18, 2009


Okay, so I went to her official site to prove myself right about the lyrics, and it is "the one you own"!

Well, I stand incredibly corrected!
posted by kathrineg at 11:10 AM on September 18, 2009


I unconcede! I unconcede!
posted by team lowkey at 11:21 AM on September 18, 2009


See, this is exactly why women shouldn't be allowed to sing.







What.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:35 AM on September 18, 2009 [1 favorite]


Someone could make a fun website that overanalyzes dance song lyrics. For example, I love the song "Shake Your Tailfeather" (Nelly/P. Diddy/Murphy Lee). But I was trying to figure out one of the early lines in the song, thinking, "Did he just say 'Is that your ass or your mama have reindeer?'

And in fact that is exactly what the lyrics say. Followed by "I can't explain but I'm damn sure glad you came here." The meaning is.... um, I think he likes her butt. Not sure, doesn't matter. It's perfect.
posted by msalt at 11:35 AM on September 18, 2009


The meaning is that her momma must've been Santa Claus for giving the world the gift of her child with a lovely butt.
posted by Burhanistan at 3:01 PM on September 18, 2009


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