I'd like to buy the world a coke.

June 28, 2010 11:33 PM

I've raised it before, and I'll keep raising it - "we" are not all denizens of the USA.

Jessamyn said to take it to metatalk, so here it is. Please posters, try to remember that when you ask a question or make a statement, the assumption that "we" the audience are from the United States of America is often wrong.

A far ruder, more deliberate example of US based insularity occurred recently at the start of this thread.

It's just a simple request regarding etiquette - keep your mind open. It's part of what makes metafilter special. If we were all from the same country it'd be much more boring.

posted by wilful to Etiquette/Policy at 11:33 PM (492 comments total)

If we were all from the same country it'd be much more boring.

What do you mean much MORE boring? Are we boring you? Or was that just a slip of the keyboard?
posted by crossoverman at 11:45 PM on June 28, 2010

Note to Americans: Melburnians suffer from an inferiority complex and always want to be included, just like your little brother in backyard cricket.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:45 PM on June 28, 2010 [13 favorites]

What was the rude bit?
posted by unliteral at 11:46 PM on June 28, 2010

Just a thought, couldn't you memail atchafalaya? You know, since they're the person that, to use your phrasing, has rudely made assumptions?
posted by Ghidorah at 11:52 PM on June 28, 2010 [4 favorites]

I'm worried this won't go well.
posted by anitanita at 11:53 PM on June 28, 2010

Also, if we were all from the same country, I probably never would've learned what amazingly thin skin people from unimportant countries have.
posted by planet at 11:54 PM on June 28, 2010 [57 favorites]

I probably never would've learned what amazingly thin skin people from unimportant countries have.
Oh! there's the rude bit.
posted by unliteral at 11:56 PM on June 28, 2010 [8 favorites]

"we" are not all denizens of the USA

Oh sure, keep rubbing it in.
posted by scody at 11:57 PM on June 28, 2010 [22 favorites]

Also, if we were all from the same country, I probably never would've learned what amazingly thin skin people from unimportant countries have.
posted by planet at 11:54 PM

Anti-eponysterical?
posted by scody at 11:57 PM on June 28, 2010 [3 favorites]

They always forget Poland.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:58 PM on June 28, 2010 [6 favorites]

What sort of person tries to start a discussion like this at 2:30 in the morning?!
posted by Rhaomi at 11:58 PM on June 28, 2010 [137 favorites]

You know, I saw that thread earlier and sort of expected this to come up here. This has been discussed before, and being a Japanese based in Tokyo I do agree with this sentiment in spirit.

But for the record, my take on this is that MetaFilter is a site founded by an American guy based in an American city and currently moderated by American people. I knew this when I signed up. I'm playing in an American playground where (I suspect) the vast majority of users are American. The site IS US-centric, and I'm not even sure if this is a bad thing. Sure, there are people from all over the world here, including me, but I don't really expect every single member here to be mindful of that in their posts and comments. The prolific posters that I follow on a regular basis are all open-minded in this regard anyway, and if someone that I don't recognize is being willfully obtuse about it, then he/she's a troll and not worth my time.

tl;dr. If it really bugs you that much, MeMail is your friend.
posted by misozaki at 12:00 AM on June 29, 2010 [42 favorites]

It is rumored there are time zones outside the US. Even places where there is daylight.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:01 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

It is rumored there are time zones outside the US.

Eleven.
posted by scody at 12:04 AM on June 29, 2010 [8 favorites]

I wouldn't call what we've got daylight. More like the grim reminder that somewhere through the haze and humidity, there's a great ball of fire that distinctly dislikes me, and wants me to suffer. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go swim home through the rainy season now.
posted by Ghidorah at 12:05 AM on June 29, 2010 [14 favorites]

If you really want to belong, there is a house for sale down the street from mine. In Oregon.
posted by Cranberry at 12:06 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

I read the "we" in the question to mean "my country," not "you and I and a bunch of other people." That is, I think atchafalaya meant "we" in the exclusive sense. If the poster had been a Canadian asking about Canadian foreign policy, I would have taken "we" to mean "Canada," and I wouldn't have felt that the phrasing assumed I was Canadian.
posted by decagon at 12:09 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

"We went to Hawaii for our vacation last summer."
"What are you talking about? I've never been to Hawaii. The whole world isn't part of your family, dude."
posted by decagon at 12:10 AM on June 29, 2010 [37 favorites]

Does this mean I can't make fun of Canadians any more?
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 12:21 AM on June 29, 2010

I don't mind it so much except when people say that 'we' have freedom of speech as some sort of conversation-stopper. The US constitution has bugger all to do with other countries and even less to do with private conversations in those countries.

Ah well, there's worse aspects to cultural imperialism than being very mildly aggravated on the internet once in a while.
posted by shinybaum at 12:24 AM on June 29, 2010 [4 favorites]

Aw. How cute! Furriners!
posted by eyeballkid at 12:26 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

wilful, w/r/t box suggesting that the fpp could go in the other thread, where is the rudeness, exactly? He made his suggestion, someone countered (correctly imho) and that was it. Dude is one of the most laid back people on here, he was not snarking or anything.
posted by mlis at 12:29 AM on June 29, 2010

They always forget Poland.

Not if they're German. Or Russian. Otherwise, yes, they always forget Poland.
posted by WalterMitty at 12:30 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

It's answering the wrong question to expect people to click through to someone's profile page to parse exclusivity.

And though the India-Pakistan foreign policy question had (surprisingly) benign consequences for the thread, it could go very wrong; consider one of the every-now-and-then question about self-defence: in the United States, advice to an asker to learn to use a gun might be appropriate, whereas almost everywhere else in the world it'd be appallingly inappropriate---and that's just the first example from the top of my head.

Yes, metafilter is an American site, but US-centricity has risks and consequences that are easily avoided.

Note to Americans: Melburnians suffer from an inferiority complex and always want to be included

Heh. Melburnians always think this Sydney-Melbourne thing is so much more important than anyone from Sydney thinks it is. Let's not even talk about Brisbane and Adelaide.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 12:30 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

except when people say that 'we' have freedom of speech as some sort of conversation-stopper

Precisely. "We" often have nothing of the kind, and might not want the kind that exists in the US.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 12:31 AM on June 29, 2010

When I say 'we', I of course am merely referring to myself in the pluralis majestatis or 'royal' sense.
posted by Abiezer at 12:42 AM on June 29, 2010 [9 favorites]

While we're at it, all these "it's, summer now" posts which assume everyone lives in the northern hemisphere are pissing me off because it's clearly not summer here and i'm freezing my ass off.
posted by onya at 12:44 AM on June 29, 2010 [5 favorites]

we all everybody? What, no?
posted by special-k at 12:45 AM on June 29, 2010 [7 favorites]

What, is it a bone chilling 44F where you are, onya? Love the message on your profile page, btw, no peace, love and understanding, huh?
posted by mlis at 12:48 AM on June 29, 2010

And further examples from my memory of good cultural-imperialism stoush: the racist fried chicken thread. Which is still not as thought provoking as the (not mefi related) How come there are African-Americans on the Swiss team?
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 12:53 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

MAH LITANY OF SLIGHTS. LET ME SHOW YOU THEM.
posted by fleacircus at 12:54 AM on June 29, 2010 [7 favorites]

Are you saying you can't wear flip-flops and shorts for your 4th of July celebration there? Because I can't do that at Christmas here.

I think we may just have found some common ground.
posted by trondant at 1:04 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

There are times when I'm more comfortable as a foreign guest than as a real, mainstream mefite.
posted by Phanx at 1:09 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

On a tangent the Australia-KFC thread reminded me of: Major League Baseball's World Series is perfectly justified in its name. While the teams might be mostly based in the US, the players are the best from around the world, modulo some Cuban players, and even there a lot of the best find their way to MLB eventually.

The College World Series, on the other hand, isn't so justifiable other than as a hand-me-down name from MLB.
posted by kmz at 1:33 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

Oh, but I just remembered an instance where US-centricity did bug me the other day in MeTa. Someone mentioned eating a whole bag of yummy salt & pepper pistachios and I thought, "Awesome, I need some of them salt & pepper pistachios," but when I went to the linked site, they only shipped within the US. And I cried.
posted by misozaki at 1:37 AM on June 29, 2010 [8 favorites]

MetaFilter: "we" did not have sexual relations..
posted by phaedon at 1:46 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Ubu - yeah, a backyard cricket analogy... that'll make it *perfectly* clear to everyone outside the commonwealth countries... unless you just meant to say the whole thing is somewhere between "boring" and "baffling"...
posted by russm at 1:51 AM on June 29, 2010

scody - not so much, these days...

Starting Sunday March 28, 2010, Russia will have nine time zones instead of 11. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin recently signed decrees to abolish the time zones of four Russian regions.
posted by russm at 1:59 AM on June 29, 2010

Speaking as a Dutch guy educated in England and living in the Middle East: Stop whining and remove the epic chip from your shoulder.
posted by atrazine at 2:00 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

What's funny is that Americans always go on about Australians having a "thin skin", but I ask them this: how many times have you, personally, set the dingoes to wake you at 4 in the morning, and then had to punch your way out of a crocodile-infested swag just to get down to the billabong to tip all the cane toads out of your billy and brew yourself up a cuppa before 4:15, which is when it goes from -10 degrees to 55 degrees instantly, and then you make the tea and you wonder if you stole it or if it's legitimately yours, and then you rub Vegemite into your armpits to keep off the flying redbacks and then you have to trek out bush just to milk emus all day, and those fuckers kick. Then you get home and have a bath full of stonefish, blue-ringed octopus and box jellyfish, and then you dry yourself off with a towel made of the world's ten deadliest snakes, which bite the water off you, and then a kangaroo boxes you to sleep at 2am. Because I have to do that every day and what has America ever given me? Foxconn suicides and 60 years of "Oh but we won World War II" when actually it was the Russians.
posted by turgid dahlia at 2:08 AM on June 29, 2010 [293 favorites]

turgid dahlia: Well, sure, that sounds about the same as my morning warm up routine. What do you do for the rest of the day?
posted by kmz at 2:13 AM on June 29, 2010

Hostile takeovers of foreign media.
posted by turgid dahlia at 2:15 AM on June 29, 2010 [22 favorites]

turgid dahlia, you're my hero.

^{also, until I checked your profile just, I had no idea you were a guy. Still my hero though.}
posted by Ghidorah at 2:16 AM on June 29, 2010

Starting Sunday March 28, 2010, Russia will have nine time zones instead of 11. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin recently signed decrees to abolish the time zones of four Russian regions.

Decadent capitalist pigs! The Great Mao Zedong's Republic of China only needs one timezone to unite all her happy diverse citizens!
posted by kmz at 2:19 AM on June 29, 2010

(Hrm, maybe I shouldn't post when I'm so tired.)
posted by kmz at 2:22 AM on June 29, 2010

Dude, some of us are from Philly. Philly. Inferiority complex? We invented it.
posted by fixedgear at 3:06 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

What's funny is that Americans always go on about Australians having a "thin skin", but I ask them this: how many times have you....

I want to favourite this a thousand times.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:50 AM on June 29, 2010

I'm against "we" except for the online multinational us, as in "We Mefi members, as invisible text-based creatures, have all seen this tripe posted before (a model of Lady Gaga built out of Lego by a laughing baby in an unexplored abandoned basement beneath Apple Computer headquarters, for example) but I'm going to put up another post about it with just enough differences (the baby is laughing with Lady Gaga) to get past the 'Double' rule."

I'm also against wee. And oui.

*ennui*

[And... weeeeeee!]
posted by pracowity at 4:01 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

UbuRoivas: "Note to Americans: Melburnians suffer from an inferiority complex and always want to be included, just like your little brother in backyard cricket."

We don't usually get crickets in the backyard until August or so, it's still only June here. What month is it in Australia now?
posted by octothorpe at 4:02 AM on June 29, 2010 [13 favorites]

my take on this is that MetaFilter is a site founded by an American guy based in an American city and currently moderated by American people...[etc.]

This is exactly my thought every time somebody makes this complaint. I think it's very cool that MetaFilter has so many international users, and nobody's saying that it's good to be a jerk toward them...but the site is US-centric because the site is US-centric. It wouldn't occur to me to march into a website written in French, hosted in France, moderated by French people, etc., and declare that because I had arrived, they were no longer allowed to be casual about being "French." I honestly don't understand the thinking. I agree with the last bit of your post, Wilful, but I really don't get the underlying request.
posted by cribcage at 4:06 AM on June 29, 2010 [6 favorites]

How many women have to be in a group before you stop saying things like "Each member is encouraged to add a link from his profile page to his personal web site" and start expecting people to use more inclusive language?
posted by pracowity at 4:24 AM on June 29, 2010 [6 favorites]

So I rang up my local swimming baths. I said, 'Is that the local swimming baths?'

He said, 'It depends where you're calling from.'

Tommy Cooper
posted by MuffinMan at 4:34 AM on June 29, 2010 [4 favorites]

Just a thought, couldn't you memail atchafalaya? You know, since they're the person that, to use your phrasing, has rudely made assumptions?

Right, when someone wants help answering complex questions the onus is on everyone else to deduce key bits of information.

As for jessamyn's spectacularly stupid suggestion to look at the profile page, well, that would have been helpful if, when the question had been asked, the profile gave any indication of nationality or location.

but the site is US-centric because the site is US-centric. It wouldn't occur to me to march into a website written in French,

Because as we know, the only people in the world who speak English or host sites in the US are Americans.
posted by rodgerd at 4:39 AM on June 29, 2010 [5 favorites]

People do look a bit thick when they forget that the internet isn't confined to the USA.
posted by harriet vane at 4:44 AM on June 29, 2010 [6 favorites]

Ubu - yeah, a backyard cricket analogy... that'll make it *perfectly* clear to everyone outside the commonwealth countries

Well at least I tried to spell it out for them.

My original comment was "Like your little brother who always wants to googly the silly mid leg"
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:45 AM on June 29, 2010 [4 favorites]

I don't think the membership fee matters. It's paid voluntarily at the door, not imposed after anyone has become invested in the site. And everything is wide open, anyway: The only thing membership buys is the ability to join the conversation. (As opposed to other sites where content is only visible to registered members.) Which brings us back to, UserX saw what the site was about before he joined and of all the conversations happening on the Internet, some US-centric and others likely not, this is the one he joined.

There's a distinction between (1) being casual about the fact that MetaFilter is US-centric, and (2) forgetting that non-US citizens exist and participate. I don't think a lot of people actually do the latter, but I agree it would make a person look "thick."
posted by cribcage at 4:49 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

it's still only June here. What month is it in Australia now?

˙ʎllıs 'llǝʍ sɐ ǝɹǝɥ ǝunɾ s,ʇı
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:56 AM on June 29, 2010 [34 favorites]

I've raised it before, and I'll keep raising it - "we" are not all denizens of the USA.

Jeez, give us time, we've only got so much army you know.
posted by shakespeherian at 5:03 AM on June 29, 2010 [38 favorites]

I'm with wilful - it shits me as well.

And fuck that Melbourne-Sydney shit - no-one really cares about it.
posted by awfurby at 5:15 AM on June 29, 2010

how did you do that?
posted by Danila at 5:16 AM on June 29, 2010

uburoivas I mean
posted by Danila at 5:16 AM on June 29, 2010

I was sure that I had found at last the one true cosmopolite since Adam, and I listened to his worldwide discourse fearful lest I should discover in it the local note of the mere globe-trotter. But his opinions never fluttered or drooped; he was as impartial to cities, countries and continents as the winds or gravitation. And as E. Rushmore Coglan prattled of this little planet I thought with glee of a great almost-cosmopolite who wrote for the whole world and dedicated himself to Bombay. In a poem he has to say that there is pride and rivalry between the cities of the earth, and that "the men that breed from them, they traffic up and down, but cling to their cities' hem as a child to the mother's gown." And whenever they walk "by roaring streets unknown" they remember their native city "most faithful, foolish, fond; making her mere-breathed name their bond upon their bond." And my glee was roused because I had caught Mr. Kipling napping. Here I had found a man not made from dust; one who had no narrow boasts of birthplace or country, one who, if he bragged at all, would brag of his whole round globe against the Martians and the inhabitants of the Moon.
-O. Henry

posted by The White Hat at 5:16 AM on June 29, 2010 [4 favorites]

I completely agree. The most hilarious example was the recent link to the video of people in bars all over the "world" (a bunch of states and an expat bar in France) regarding the world cup. Bad enough the video creator listed it as world but embarrassing that the mefite did.
posted by dobbs at 5:24 AM on June 29, 2010 [4 favorites]

In a post-mortem of England's shambolic performance at the World Cup, a commentator said, "They were worse than Ghana. Though they were better than Australia."
posted by Joe Beese at 5:27 AM on June 29, 2010

how did you do that?
ssǝnƃ ɐ ʇsnɾ: ןɯʇɥ˙sɹǝʇʇǝןuʍopǝpısdn/ʎɐןd/ɯoɔ˙sǝɹıʍuǝʌǝs˙ʍʍʍ//:dʇʇɥ
posted by elgilito at 5:28 AM on June 29, 2010 [7 favorites]

Which is still not as thought provoking as the (not mefi related) How come there are African-Americans on the Swiss team?

I am sorry I have not read through all the comments here just yet, but I felt I could waste no time in sharing that every semester many, many of my college students write essay exams about African Americans who built empires in Africa, and African American rulers who negotiated with slave traders from European and Islamic empires.

It's like it's hard-wired into their brains that residents of Africa = African-Americans. Also, one guy thought 1492 was the year that Europeans began building plantations in the United States.

I guess I missed out on the fun of the thread in which everyone shared that stuff. Now that it's out of my system I feel better.
posted by vincele at 5:29 AM on June 29, 2010 [13 favorites]

Also, if we were all from the same country, I probably never would've learned what amazingly thin skin people from unimportant countries have.

I think it's more to do with some Americans having amazingly thick heads.
posted by i_cola at 5:30 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

˙pɐǝʇsuı 'ǝlqɐʇ ǝɥʇ ɟo ɯoʇʇoq ǝɥʇ uo ʇıs oʇ ɹǝɟǝɹd ǝʍ ˙ǝɔuǝɟ ǝɥʇ ɟo ǝpıs ʎuɐ uo ʇıs ʎllɐnʇɔɐ ʇ,uop ı os 'ʎɐʍʎuɐ 'ɹǝʇɹoddns suoɯǝp ǝuɹnoqlǝɯ ɐ ɯ,ı puɐ

˙ǝʇıs ʎpuɐɥ sıɥʇ oʇ ʇuǝʍ ʇsnɾ ı - ɐlıuɐp
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:32 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

As for jessamyn's spectacularly stupid suggestion to look at the profile page

Calling a mod's suggestion "spectacularly stupid" is sure to elevate the level of discussion.

I guess that's true in New Zealand, since down is up
posted by lukemeister at 5:33 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

> As for jessamyn's spectacularly stupid suggestion

Don't be an asshole.
posted by languagehat at 5:48 AM on June 29, 2010 [43 favorites]

"we" are not all denizens of the USA.

Huh? Of course we are! I mean, I am. And my wife. And my best friend. And my neighbors. Also, my cats.

What more evidence do you need? We're all Americans, here.

(Do essential indexical jokes work on Metafilter? I guess "we'll" see!)
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:02 AM on June 29, 2010

Metafilter prides itself on its inclusionary nature; people here frequently refer to the 'sexism threads' and how Mefi is less of a boy zone than the rest of the Internet, and so on.

Yet, when the issue turns to dominance not by sex but by citizenship (or cultural hegemony) those same ironic witticisms which the mods deem unacceptable in discussions of sex or race are quite acceptable indeed. So we get threads like this one wherein posters make jokes about whiney foreigners or the U.S. taking over their country.

How is this different from telling women to get back in the kitchen or making pseudo racist cracks in a racism thread?
posted by stinkycheese at 6:11 AM on June 29, 2010 [13 favorites]

This thread really pisses me off. What's with the assumption that we can all read English, huh?
posted by shakespeherian at 6:15 AM on June 29, 2010

I've had a think about this and if people want to assume I'm American when I comment then I'm pretty much OK with that.

OK, thanks, bye.
posted by Jofus at 6:20 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

rogerd said:
As for jessamyn's spectacularly stupid suggestion to look at the profile page, well, that would have been helpful if, when the question had been asked, the profile gave any indication of nationality or location.

Looking back at that thread, I see that a commenter said, "in the future, please explicitly specify who "we" is as people from around the world read MetaFilter". Then someone else came along 45 minutes later and commented, "A single click to the poster's profile would have answered this for you", so at some point in that 45 minutes, the OP must have added info to their profile. And then Jessamyn came along almost 2 hours later and made her comment, after seeing that the profile was filled out.

Your comment was rude and uncalled-for.
posted by iconomy at 6:27 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

I've got a buddy on Facebook who has a photo album called "Grievances" and he puts pictures in there of, like, the sign when the donut shop is closed, or when the paper says it's going to rain all week. Grievances.
posted by dirtdirt at 6:30 AM on June 29, 2010 [14 favorites]

Exactly. This is just like when you can't get a donut. The real travesty here is that someone slighted a mod.
posted by stinkycheese at 6:32 AM on June 29, 2010

There's a distinction between (1) being casual about the fact that MetaFilter is US-centric, and (2) forgetting that non-US citizens exist and participate. I don't think a lot of people actually do the latter...

You probably don't notice it as much when it happens, since it's fitting in with your own location. It stands out more when you live somewhere with actual health care, a different legal and political system, some different brand names, a rather different idea of what a 'biscuit' or a 'thong' is, and where WA isn't necessarily an abbreviation for Washington state.

Those differences usually don't matter. But they do make it completely obvious to the rest of the world if someone's forgotten that not everyone on the internet lives where they do, wherever that might be. It comes up more often in AskMe, in my experience.

Although one comment in the Australian PM thread that wilful linked seemed purposefully dismissive rather than innocently forgetful, imo.
posted by harriet vane at 6:36 AM on June 29, 2010 [5 favorites]

I think that this is something all US based Mefites should think about when posting and commenting. Thanks for reminding me. I also think people shouldn't be rude. I also think that the "grievances" facebook idea is hilarious and that's a totally separate issue to me.

And that's what I think.
posted by josher71 at 6:36 AM on June 29, 2010

How is this different from telling women to get back in the kitchen or making pseudo racist cracks in a racism thread?

I'm in the kitchen right now! I can't get back into it unless I first LEAVE the kitchen!

Also: a lot of people have totally legit beefs with American Imperialism. Yep. We've got a dubious history and our current government doesn't do much to make us likeable, even with Barack "Puppies For All" Obama. But to extend this to getting pissy when a majority-US-members site occasionally makes silly assumptions... deep breaths, man. We're not oppressing you. True, we can look mighty dumb when we make said assumptions - but wouldn't it be better just to leave it as us looking stupid rather than having us get defensive and stupid?
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:37 AM on June 29, 2010 [7 favorites]

Sometimes I hope people assume I'm from Mars when I post, cause then they'll go, " Cool, it's the Martian, I bet being from Mars means he's got something intelligent and interesting to add to the conversation."

I mean, Mars hasn't started any wars lately, everyone wants to visit and take pictures, and there's always talk of folks moving there.
posted by Atreides at 6:37 AM on June 29, 2010 [4 favorites]

So we get threads like this one wherein posters make jokes about whiney foreigners or the U.S. taking over their country.

Are we reading the same website? This thread thus far is comprised of mostly people posting from overseas including,

I think it's more to do with some Americans having amazingly thick heads. -- UK

As for jessamyn's spectacularly stupid suggestion to look at the profile page -- New Zealand
posted by The Straightener at 6:38 AM on June 29, 2010

Fuggin' tag mudder fugger.
posted by The Straightener at 6:38 AM on June 29, 2010

Cmon guys, let him use all that rope, then call him out.

Since the doofus is out of the bag, I think that of all the words anyone here might consider using to describe a mod in the abstract and jessamyn in particular, "spectacularly" and "stupid" would probably never be placed that close together, unless it was followed by "crazy phat librarian superhero."
posted by nevercalm at 6:39 AM on June 29, 2010

It stands out more when you live somewhere with actual health care,

*cries*
posted by rtha at 6:40 AM on June 29, 2010

Yes, this site does slant American, just as it slants male, but other than the occasional specific instances where someone says something thoughtless or even more occasionally, something mildly offensive out of chauvinism and ignorance (i.e., referring to the American president as "the leader of the free world"), it's really not problematic. And if someone does say something you find offensive, you can certainly say so, and moreover if you do so with a certain wit and eloquence, you'll find a good proportion of the favourites your comment garners are from Americans. There are lots of good people here, of every nationality.
posted by orange swan at 6:45 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

As for jessamyn's spectacularly stupid suggestion to look at the profile page

I do some spectacularly stupid things, but that was not one of them. There was profile information there when I left my note. I'd appreciate an apology.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:46 AM on June 29, 2010 [27 favorites]

I've raised it before, and I'll keep raising it - "moderators" are not all spectacularly stupid.

Please posters, try to remember that when you make a statement, the assumption that "moderators" are spectacularly stupid is often wrong.

A rude, deliberate example of non-Jessamyn-based insularity occurred recently at during this thread.

It's just a simple request regarding etiquette - keep your mind open. It's part of what makes metafilter special. If we were all Jessamyn it'd be much more boring.
posted by Mike1024 at 6:47 AM on June 29, 2010

Mars hasn't started any wars lately

Now there's a poser.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:51 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

I do some spectacularly stupid things, but that was not one of them. There was profile information there when I left my note. I'd appreciate an apology.

I tried that with rodgerd when he lumped me in over here. Needless to say, he's piss poor at apologies.
posted by gman at 6:52 AM on June 29, 2010

getting pissy when a majority-US-members site occasionally makes silly assumptions... deep breaths, man. We're not oppressing you.

This sort of condescension is also familiar from those sexism Meta threads I mentioned. I'm kind of surprised you wouldn't see that.

And if someone does say something you find offensive, you can certainly say so

Not in the blue, apparently. You'd have to start a Meta thread. And look at how well that goes.
posted by stinkycheese at 6:54 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Just a thought, couldn't you memail atchafalaya? You know, since they're the person that, to use your phrasing, has rudely made assumptions?

Because he's not the only one on this website of tens of thousands of users who does it.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:56 AM on June 29, 2010

getting pissy when a majority-US-members site occasionally makes silly assumptions... deep breaths, man. We're not oppressing you.

This sort of condescension is also familiar from those sexism Meta threads I mentioned. I'm kind of surprised you wouldn't see that.

If you're reading me as condescending - which is not my intent at all - then it seems to me like we're at an impasse. I'm honestly stating that people say dumb shit and to then interpret said dumb shit as an oppressive bad-faith statement is looking for an argument.

I would say the same about sexism. Saying something stupid and saying something offensive aren't the same thing. If you go around reading the worst possible interpretations into everyone's statements (as it feels like you're doing here), of course you're going to get offended. But if you step back and think "Wow, what if that person just really did NOT think that through" - life gets a bit easier.

F'rinstance: I once used the word "uppity" in thread and totally didn't think through that it had racist connotations. I got slammed for it from every direction. Only a few people thought to give me the benefit of the doubt and ask "Wait. Do you really mean that?" Most others just slammed me in a very condescending and aggressive "You should know better" kind of way. Of course I wasn't trying to be racist and of course I hadn't considered the word's history when I used it. It was just a momentary bad choice of words.

If you want to take this "I'm going to read your words in the worst possible light" approach every time an American says something stupid in a blanket "Oh, this is a US hosted site, of course we're all Americans" kind of way, that's your prerogative - but it's an exhausting one and probably wrong-headed as I have a feeling that most of the time dumb statements are just that. Dumb.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 7:02 AM on June 29, 2010 [10 favorites]

It's like it's hard-wired into their brains that residents of Africa = African-Americans.

No, it's hard wired into their brains that [someone?] says you can't say "black" anymore, and that the alternative is "african american". They don't think africa is part of america. They just use the wrong name for the race.


I do some spectacularly stupid things, but that was not one of them. There was profile information there when I left my note. I'd appreciate an apology.

Oh ffs. On a thread about thin skin, no less.
posted by gjc at 7:06 AM on June 29, 2010

Then someone else came along 45 minutes later and commented, "A single click to the poster's profile would have answered this for you", so at some point in that 45 minutes, the OP must have added info to their profile.

As the "someone else," I just wanted to add that I often click through to see if there is a location in an OP's profile, for any number of reasons, including thinking about the implications of answering their question in different states within the U.S. as well as getting perspective on their question if they are not posting from the U.S. I had assumed others do this as well and was surprised that someone was making a big deal out of it.

I guess it hadn't occurred to me the OP had added the geo info to her/his profile between posting and when I read the askme; I admit I probably would have quietly passed by the askme and not added my helpful links had the OP been geographically anonymous.
posted by aught at 7:08 AM on June 29, 2010

I do some spectacularly stupid things...

Oooo, is it story time?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:09 AM on June 29, 2010

Metafilter: reading the worst possible interpretations of everyone's statements and getting offended.
posted by gjc at 7:09 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

Metafilter The Internet: reading the worst possible interpretations of everyone's statements and getting offended.
posted by aught at 7:14 AM on June 29, 2010 [5 favorites]

This sort of condescension is also familiar from those sexism Meta threads I mentioned. I'm kind of surprised you wouldn't see that.

I think there's a pretty significant difference between the assumptions we're talking about here and the sexism discussed in those thread-- a better comparison would be to assumptions that everyone on Metafilter is male, rather than discussions in which people attempt to curb sexist behavior. Forgetting that not everyone on the site is American or understands what is meant by 'biscuit' is careless and perhaps rude, but is not in itself an immoral action, as opposed to the sort of leering & objectifying comments that prompted those epic sexism threads. This isn't to say that American bias is fine and dandy, just that I don't think the comparison is apt.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:15 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

Yeah and don't get me wrong, I think people really should leave pertinent information about their location and/or gender and/or other relevant details to their question and I think it's a pain when people don't. However, we have a lot of new users [yes, achafalaya isn't one of them] who may be unclear of the efforts we take to have this site be usable by and sensemaking to people all over the world. It says so on the posting page in a special box "Please try to include all relevant details such as your location, operating system, gender or contact information. If you would like people to give you recommendations, include a bit about your preferences."

That said, when someone hasn't included this information, the AskMe thread gets screwed up if people all pile-on the OP asking for their location. Once should do it. Making wiseass remarks as if you're wilfully misinterpreting the OPs question isn't so grand either. I know it rankles somewhat that the default nationality here for a lot of people is US, but I do think it's a realistic demographic statement about the site. As mods we work to make sure that the mechanics of the site work for people from other countries but etiquette-wise there's not so much we can do. It doesn't seem cricket to delete someone's question just because they didn't mention what country they were from.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:16 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

What's worse than using "we" to denote nationality is using "we" to refer to a government. Unless you're on their payroll, it's "them." I'm not allied with any world governments... but the scum-sucking politicians in Washington [or your-local-capitol-here] are, and for many reasons they'd prefer "we" were not privy to. If you really want that personal connection the word "we" suggests, enter politics. Speaking for myself, I don't want anything to do with it; I've seen how sausages are made.
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 7:20 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Remember guys: it take two dicks to have a sword fight.
posted by The Straightener at 7:25 AM on June 29, 2010 [4 favorites]

Unless you're on their payroll, it's "them."

I know this is a derail but I strongly disagree with this sentiment, and my partner and I were actually just talking about just this notion this morning at breakfast, but then I think the split between these two views (nation / gov't as other versus something one is part of as a citizen) is one of the major schisms in politics at the moment. (Feeling distaste for what your elected representatives do does not excuse you from being part of the system. And I say this as one who has been feeling a lot of distaste throughout my nearly 3 decades of adult life.)
posted by aught at 7:26 AM on June 29, 2010 [6 favorites]

RodgerD, actually, given your comment, the first thing I did was check your profile to figure out from which country someone was disagreeing with me. It took a right click and about five seconds, and that was that. I'd argue that when you want to vent about how put upon you are, it might be a good idea to make sure that your target is being an intentional ass, as opposed to someone who just didn't really think about what or how they were saying it.

It was, as has been mentioned, a poorly worded question. A memail to the asker, gently pointing out that 'we' as used in their question ends up being much more exlusionary than they most likely meant would probably do a lot more good than the buckshot approach of a MeTa callout. When the callout goes up, as we've seen here, you get different groups of folks showing up. We've got the folks who are just piling on because they know it's annoying you, and lord, they find it funny. We've got the people who are saying "Hey, it's not me, I paid attention in geography class." And we've got MeFites from around the globe who feel it's high time to vent all of the frustration from every imagined or real slight from every ignorant American they've ever met, heard of, or interacted with in any way. These people are pretty easy to spot, they're the ones jumping down the throat of the mods who try to make this a pleasant place for everyone, no matter where they're from.
posted by Ghidorah at 7:26 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

is one of the major schisms in politics

Sorry, my fellow Mefites from around the planet. I should've typed "in U.S. politics."

(Wait, will someone be offended if I put the period inside the quotes?)
posted by aught at 7:29 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

I do find it interesting that after all the education that's gone on on MeFi about 'invisible knapsacks of privilege', there are still those who were part of those educative efforts that are still blind to their own. In a global world, "national privilege" is just as valuable to those who have it and just obvious to those who don't carry it as race, gender, and sexuality are.

As one random example, the very structure of the internet is set up to 'normalize' being American in the same way that US society 'normalizes' being white or being male. Think of the domain system -- .com, .edu, .org -- all default to assuming location within the US. From another country? .ca, .co.uk, .za, etc... And that cultural normalization of the American experience is profound, and is generally experienced negatively by almost all non-Americans I have ever met -- this is why small things like the cause of this post can provoke such an apparent over-reaction.

Now, I agree that is understandable that there will naturally be a generally American slant to a website founded and run by Americans.. but as I've suggested before, there is a point where a website can transcend that national origin, and I'd like to see more understanding of this. I think on one hand this is just a user-education issue, but on another, deeper level, it is a cultural issue that I think will be hard for any one website to overcome.
posted by modernnomad at 7:30 AM on June 29, 2010 [23 favorites]

I've got a buddy on Facebook who has a photo album called "Grievances" and he puts pictures in there of, like, the sign when the donut shop is closed, or when the paper says it's going to rain all week. Grievances.

I am totally stealing this idea.
posted by DWRoelands at 7:31 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

(Wait, will someone be offended if I put the period inside the quotes?)

I think you can take that to the bank.
posted by nevercalm at 7:31 AM on June 29, 2010

I'm with orange swan: this board does slant US, it would be nice if all (rather than most) US posters could remember that not everyone is in the US. But it's really not a huge issue. On preview, Shakesperian makes good points too.

In terms of the specific AskMe thread that prompted this thread: maybe using "US" rather than "we" might have improved the quality of the answers, though the poster's intent was surely obvious. But I just looked over the last five pages of AskMe, and the problem doesn't seem to arise much elsewhere - there were two questions that didn't have relevant location information on the front page, but one had it in the question, and the other poster included his city in his profile.

As for jessamyn's spectacularly stupid suggestion to look at the profile page -- New Zealand

It was Rodgerd, please leave the rest of us out of this [if I used smilies, this comment would have a smiley to show I'm not GRARing at The Straightener]
posted by Infinite Jest at 7:34 AM on June 29, 2010

Think of the domain system -- .com, .edu, .org -- all default to assuming location within the US

So it's settled, metafilter.com is clearly American.
posted by smackfu at 7:35 AM on June 29, 2010

I can't figure out if it is funny or sad that this thread has gotten this heated and long. Is there seriously anyone defending reflexive US-centrism on the internet? There is literally no metric by which that is a great idea, from etiquette to pragmatics to ethics.
posted by DU at 7:38 AM on June 29, 2010 [5 favorites]

What's Australian for yawn?

I'm pretty sure every American on this site is painfully aware that we're not all Americans.

Pretty much every time politics comes up some Non-US individual points out how insane our politics are (like we don't have internet and can't see how fucked up they are the world over), any time health care comes up we get a lesson about how it's better everywhere else, any time certain words come up we're informed that they aren't offensive everywhere and we should grow some skin, any time someone takes a bit of pride in an American holiday and posts about it we get informed that not the entire world celebrates our independence from England or approves of our subjugation of the indigenous populace, any time education comes up we're told we're behind, teaching the wrong things, are propagating lies and it should be free, any time a war breaks out it's pointed out the US should intercede to stop the genocide or get out of the country and stop committing genocide, any time energy or mass transit comes up we're reminded the rest of the world drives cars the size of breadboxes, the 1/8th of a mile required to make it to high speed, eco-friendly, rail systems, your country, the size of Rhode Island (that's in the US), thinks we should roll out here.

This is when someone takes a break from telling us that what we call ourselves is inaccurate and wrong.

So thanks for yet another tiresome reminder.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:48 AM on June 29, 2010 [49 favorites]

Can't we all just hug it out yet?
posted by Mizu at 7:52 AM on June 29, 2010

It's only their envy showing, cjorgensen. Pity them.
posted by crunchland at 7:57 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

As a Canadian, I like it when Americans forget that not everyone else on the site is American. It gives me a chance to feel smugly superior to ignorant Americans, which is pretty much the Canadian national identity in a nutshell.
posted by twirlip at 7:57 AM on June 29, 2010 [18 favorites]

So thanks for yet another tiresome reminder.

Are you... actually complaining that the internet isn't US-centric enough?
posted by Catseye at 7:58 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

So this is why we can't have nice things.
posted by quin at 7:58 AM on June 29, 2010

Are you... actually complaining that the internet isn't US-centric enough?

I think he's saying that the internet is US-criticism-centric.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:59 AM on June 29, 2010

Pretty much every time politics comes up some Non-US individual points out how insane our politics are (like we don't have internet and can't see how fucked up they are the world over), any time health care comes up we get a lesson about how it's better everywhere else, any time certain words come up we're informed that they aren't offensive everywhere and we should grow some skin, any time someone takes a bit of pride in an American holiday and posts about it we get informed that not the entire world celebrates our independence from England or approves of our subjugation of the indigenous populace, any time education comes up we're told we're behind, teaching the wrong things, are propagating lies and it should be free, any time a war breaks out it's pointed out the US should intercede to stop the genocide or get out of the country and stop committing genocide, any time energy or mass transit comes up we're reminded the rest of the world drives cars the size of breadboxes, the 1/8th of a mile required to make it to high speed, eco-friendly, rail systems, your country, the size of Rhode Island (that's in the US), thinks we should roll out here.

This is when someone takes a break from telling us that what we call ourselves is inaccurate and wrong.

So thanks for yet another tiresome reminder.

This is also true. Both sides need to recognize that this is an international site. BOTH. Sides. Slagging on Americans at every available opportunity (which feels like it happens A LOT, if not all the time) is absolutely 100% as tiresome as Americans acting like the site is US-centric.

MetaFilter is one of the few places where you can't wish someone a Happy Thanksgiving without being reminded that you shouldn't be happy because of the Native American (or is it American Indian? Whatever term you use, you're probably wrong and a bad person for saying it. I honestly never know.) genocide.

To which I say: SMALLPOX BLANKETS FOR ALL!

And a pre-emptive Happy Fourth of July! Let's all barbeque and eat apple pies!
posted by grapefruitmoon at 8:04 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Dear MetaTalk,
That recent post about historical models of the universe was totally helio-centric! Please remember that some of us still live in the 15th century.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:07 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

While I'm pretty sure Jessamyn isn't spectacularly stupid, it would be in the Asker's best interest to make it clear in the question who 'we' was; I could give a shit about US-centrality, but the question should either have been altered or given the hook with a note explaining how and why the Asker could make things easier for potential respondents. Answerers shouldn't have to go into profiles to make sense of a question, the onus is on the poster to provide them with the pertinent information. As amusing as it was, GuyZero's Commonwealth quip probably should have been deep-sixed as well.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:07 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

Sometimes I hope people assume I'm from Mars when I post...
posted by Atreides

I always assumed Arrakis by way of Caladan.
posted by Babblesort at 8:09 AM on June 29, 2010 [9 favorites]

(I guess the short version of my comment is that it's not about making sure every special nationality feels the luv, it's about AskMe utility.)
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:09 AM on June 29, 2010

...any time energy or mass transit comes up we're reminded the rest of the world drives cars the size of breadboxes, the 1/8th of a mile required to make it to high speed...

I think you mean 200 meters.
posted by chococat at 8:10 AM on June 29, 2010 [6 favorites]

Answerers shouldn't have to go into profiles to make sense of a question, the onus is on the poster to provide them with the pertinent information.

This.
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:14 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Can't we all just hug it out yet?


I think we all need a soothing biscuit.
posted by Phanx at 8:15 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Geez, and here I thought we were all from the Boston area, and this was just a local thing. So it's not just Boston, but all of New England?
posted by not_on_display at 8:17 AM on June 29, 2010 [5 favorites]

Well, one mod lives on a house boat in a lake in Vermont and three of them are based out of Maine. So it's definitely a Northern New England thing.
posted by skynxnex at 8:20 AM on June 29, 2010 [6 favorites]

Is there a recipe for hugs?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:20 AM on June 29, 2010

Old England, too. Or "England Classic", as we shall soon be re-branded.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:21 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

one part left arm. one part right arm. squeeze. pat on back three times (optional).
posted by crunchland at 8:23 AM on June 29, 2010

(at least, that's how we do it in America.)
posted by crunchland at 8:24 AM on June 29, 2010

three of them are based out of Maine

Geography jokes! Yaaaay!
posted by kittyprecious at 8:26 AM on June 29, 2010

I've seen more than one travel question asking something like "What are some destinations I can fly to cheaply?"

It's not just that the asker fails to mention they're in the US. It's worse than that. The US is huge and by not even mentioning where in the US they are, they are guaranteed not to get good advice. (Heck, I recall seeing one instance of this question with the OP following up and telling people they are in the UK.)

I've also seen more than one "What should I wear to this or that type of event?" and failing to mention their gender.

So, I don't see this as American insularity, really, but a more general type of insularity where you forget that you are not asking this question to your friends, who have all this context of who you are, where you live, what you like, your age and all this other stuff you never have to specify.

Here, your question is all text on the page, with no context other than what you explicitly provide. We don't know you. Please spell out for us what we need to know to answer the question as best we can. That burden is on the asker of the question, otherwise your thread will get quickly derailed with nothing more than lots of potential answerers trying to quiz you for more context, as your question scrolls steadily down the page.
posted by vacapinta at 8:27 AM on June 29, 2010 [18 favorites]

It stands out more when you live somewhere with actual health care,

Ooh, buuuuuurrrrnnnn.
posted by amro at 8:29 AM on June 29, 2010

MLIS writes "wilful, w/r/t box suggesting that the fpp could go in the other thread, where is the rudeness, exactly? He made his suggestion, someone countered (correctly imho) and that was it. Dude is one of the most laid back people on here, he was not snarking or anything."

I wouldn't call it rude but the comment shouldn't have been there. If one has a problem with the placement of FPP then one should FIAMO or contact the mods via the form. Yopu know, alert the people who can actually do something about it instead of derailing the thread with metaness.
posted by Mitheral at 8:29 AM on June 29, 2010

"How is this different from telling women to get back in the kitchen or making pseudo racist cracks in a racism thread?"

Seriously? Well, because sexism and racism are far more harmful, insidious and vile, and blithe assumptions of normativism generally still go unchallenged. Why not just compare being left out of "we" to the Holocaust and hit all your rhetorical marks?
posted by klangklangston at 8:30 AM on June 29, 2010 [5 favorites]

"Answerers shouldn't have to go into profiles to make sense of a question, the onus is on the poster to provide them with the pertinent information."

If you can't make sense of a question, you can always not answer.
posted by klangklangston at 8:33 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

Heh. Melburnians always think this Sydney-Melbourne thing is so much more important than anyone from Sydney thinks it is. Let's not even talk about Brisbane and Adelaide.

BTW -- Whoo-boy. When visiting Australia and giving a presentation make absolutely sure you include a rendering of Tasmania on the map you are projecting on the screen. After the first time you learn your mistake quickly. Them Aussies can get quite vocal and territorial.
posted by ericb at 8:35 AM on June 29, 2010

If you can't make sense of a question, you can always not answer.

Yes, that's true -- assuming the askers aren't clear in the first place. But since the asker is the one seeking help from the (potential) answerers, the burden should be on the asker to be clear.
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:35 AM on June 29, 2010

Oh, and for my fellow Americans -- New Zealand IS NOT part of Australia!
posted by ericb at 8:36 AM on June 29, 2010

I'm pretty sure every American on this site is painfully aware that we're not all Americans ...

As an American expat, I can attest that this is also true outside of the internet. You'll occasionally meet someone who, on finally encountering a Real Live American, start talking to you as if they've been waiting for the moment to read off their laundry list of things wrong with the US to a citizen thereof. I just pretty much nod and smile, at some point saying something about "preaching to the choir".

On the plus side, this more or less stopped happening once Obama was elected.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:37 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Wait, are you trying to tell me New York isn't the center of the universe?

That's crazy talk!
posted by zarq at 8:38 AM on June 29, 2010

Are you... actually complaining that the internet isn't US-centric enough?

No, I am complaining about all the complaining. For a while it was seeming that this place was unable to go a week without someone making a metatalk post asking some version of, "Why won't people think of my feelings!"

It got to where I was tempted to make a list of all the things people would rather other people not do, say, or be.
posted by cjorgensen at 8:43 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Oh, and for my fellow Americans -- New Zealand IS NOT part of Australia!

Of course not. New Zealand is Australia's Canada.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 8:44 AM on June 29, 2010 [9 favorites]

I haven't raised this before, but I'm going to keep raising it, starting now - when a poster incorrectly assumes "we" are all denizens of the USA, it is sufficient for one person to politely point this out in-thread. It is not necessary for eighty different people to tell them, and insinuate what a horrible person they are for making such an assumption to boot.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:45 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

Excuse me, what does the title of this thread mean? Is there really Coke or is it just one of those cruel American in-jokes?

Seriously!
posted by mondaygreens at 8:47 AM on June 29, 2010

If you can't make sense of a question, you can always not answer.

True, but in this case, the Asker is curious about American-Indian relations, but leaving out the 'American'. If I solicit Ethiopian restaurant recommendations without telling people where I am, or ask 'What book should I read next?', is it fair to potential respondents or myself to assume they can just look at the LibraryThing widget in my profile to get a feel for the kind of stuff I like?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:47 AM on June 29, 2010

SMALLPOX BLANKETS FOR ALL!

Smallpox blankets for some, syphilis for others!*

*Not to be interpreted as a justification for genocide.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:48 AM on June 29, 2010

I don't know if you actually do need two dicks to have a sword fight. I am in the US, btw, and I'm sorry.

For everything.
posted by everichon at 8:49 AM on June 29, 2010

mondaygreens: psst.
posted by crunchland at 8:49 AM on June 29, 2010

BIG HUG

1 oz Irish Cream
1 oz Creme de Cacao
1 Cup (Hot) Chocolate
1/2 oz Whipping Cream

Directions
Pour the irish cream into an Irish coffee cup or glass filled 3/4 with hot chocolate. Add creme de cacao. Add whipped cream and garnish with shaved chocolate on top.
posted by zarq at 8:49 AM on June 29, 2010 [12 favorites]

Let's all barbeque and eat apple pies!

You are talking about eastern North Carolina vinegar-based barbecue, right? Because that is the default definition of barbecue.

/sarcasm
posted by marxchivist at 8:49 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

Has wilful actually raised this same issue in MetaTalk before?
posted by smackfu at 8:50 AM on June 29, 2010

Wouldn't you just need two swords?

Or is this some European thing?
posted by shakespeherian at 8:51 AM on June 29, 2010

Recipes! Everything is going to be ok!
posted by grapefruitmoon at 8:52 AM on June 29, 2010 [4 favorites]

Aha, he did, back in 2006: US-centric MeFi bias

Spoiler: it went about as well as this thread did.
posted by smackfu at 8:53 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Has wilful actually raised this same issue in MetaTalk before?

A quick look at his posting history says yes.

Yay profiles!
posted by grapefruitmoon at 8:54 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Wouldn't you just need two swords?

Or is this some European thing?

Sword fighting is no longer condoned in most European countries. Excruciating song contests are the prefered method of settling differences.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:54 AM on June 29, 2010 [7 favorites]

You know a MeTa thread is winding down when the recipes start appearing. I'll get back to work now.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 8:58 AM on June 29, 2010

I don't know if you actually do need two dicks to have a sword fight.

No, more of a cockfight, really.
posted by Phanx at 8:59 AM on June 29, 2010

I ♥ PERTH!
posted by koeselitz at 8:59 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

For reals? this is not the only site I participate on where this comes up. You know what? It's tired and lame every where. I participate on sites based in the UK and Australia as well. You know what? I never whine about the fact that the majority of people there are centric to their own country.

Wah wah wah.

If you were sitting in this person's parlor (ya, I'm that way) and they said the same thing would you correct them and ask them to specify exacting who "we" was?
posted by FlamingBore at 9:00 AM on June 29, 2010

You know a MeTa thread is winding down when the recipes start appearing. I'll get back to work now.

Really? I think it's that you know a MeTa thread is getting AWESOME when the recipes start appearing. One man's trash is another man's sweet deliciousness.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:02 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

Hey, give the US a break. We just lost to frickin' Ghana in something. Yeah Ghana beat us. Again. Goin' goin' Ghana. So we may have to invade something to assuage these feelings of inadequacy we're experiencing. It's the "wage to assuage" strategy. Because Ghana kicked our asses, we are going to invade...

*pulls slip of paper from hat; unfolds slip of paper*

Trinidad and Tobago! Ha! Take that, T&T! With your long tradition of institutional stability and your lucrative oil business!
posted by Mister_A at 9:04 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

Just to be clear, we're invading because of the long tradition of institutional stability; not because of the oil. The people of T&T have suffered for too long under the cruel yoke of institutional stability.
posted by Mister_A at 9:06 AM on June 29, 2010 [6 favorites]

Mister_A, Ghana kicked our ass in soccer. That's one of those sports we don't care about.
posted by cjorgensen at 9:08 AM on June 29, 2010

Of course not. New Zealand is Australia's Canada.

New Zealand, the Canada of Australia. I like to think Canada has a number of such sister countries: we are the Scotlands, the Portugals, the Switzerlands, the Koreas... the Norways and Uruguays - Germany thinks we're cute, Argentina thinks we're a joke, England laughs and/or pities us, America calls us their hat, and Australians make sheep jokes... yes we speak almost the same language as our larger neighbours, and yes our cultures are very similar to our better known neighbours. But we all have our own government, support each other by commonly resenting your jokes aboot our dialects, and send our talented entertainers into the more lucrative neighbouring country in order to get famous. Let's hear it for the little guy!
posted by molecicco at 9:10 AM on June 29, 2010 [6 favorites]

Whenever I write "we," I wish it to be understood as the *royal* form, please.

Seriously, many languages have pronoun systems that allow you to distinguish inclusive and exclusive "we," and some also distinguish dual and multiple "we." We're dealing with a linguocentric predicament here as much as a national chauvinist one.


Or as the old linguists' joke goes:

Support English only! If it was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for us! (That's *all* of "us," y'hear buddy?)
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:10 AM on June 29, 2010

Hey, give the US a break

True dat.
At the very least this thread has enlightened me to how rough Americans have it.
I put it down to small cultural differences causing a breakdown in communication, resulting in misunderstandings and frustration. A friendly tip for Americans who feel slighted or misunderstood might be to repeat their position, louder; perhaps affecting a sort of pretend accent of the country they are visiting.
posted by chococat at 9:11 AM on June 29, 2010 [9 favorites]

Mister_A, Ghana kicked our ass in soccer.

IT'S FOOTBALL DIE IMPERIALIST SCUM
posted by shakespeherian at 9:11 AM on June 29, 2010

yes we speak almost the same language as our larger neighbours,

Pedantry: This does not hold true for your example of Portugal.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:11 AM on June 29, 2010

Soccer is that game with the horses, correct?
posted by Mister_A at 9:12 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

I think soccer is like if rugby and cricket had a baby. So... Quidditch.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:15 AM on June 29, 2010

It got to where I was tempted to make a list of all the things people would rather other people not do, say, or be.

MetaTalk already is that list, no?

More seriously: okay, I get you, and heaven knows the discussions here can get a little overwhelmingly "HOW VERY DARE YOU, SIR" at times. I'm not a fan of lolz-America-sucks comment in place of dialogue, either. But saying that MeFi can be quite US-centric at times is a valid point to make. I don't suggest forming an angry pitchfork-wielding mob of non-US-MeFites or anything; really, this comment by Marquis in the MeTa thread linked above sums it up fairly well for me. I just don't see a need for the furious defensiveness being thrown around on this thread, and it's a little baffling to witness.
posted by Catseye at 9:16 AM on June 29, 2010 [5 favorites]

I can't believe we've come this far without the USian wars starting up again.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:19 AM on June 29, 2010

I can't believe we've come this far without the USian wars starting up again.

DAMN YOUR EYES.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:20 AM on June 29, 2010

Bonerland über alles.
posted by Mister_A at 9:21 AM on June 29, 2010

. I just don't see a need for the furious defensiveness being thrown around on this thread, and it's a little baffling to witness.

See cjorgenson's comment. In an environment where American members of the site are often attacked simply for being American, it's very easy to get defensive when criticisms are raised.

Again, I think both sides are right on this one: Americans need to be more aware that we're not the only inhabitants of the site and the rest of y'all need to stop taking every single chance to remind us that we're wrong.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:22 AM on June 29, 2010

yes we speak almost the same language as our larger neighbours,

Pedantry: This does not hold true for your example of Portugal.

Or for your example of Scotland.
posted by dersins at 9:22 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

Or for your example of Canada.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:24 AM on June 29, 2010

Or your example of Kentucky.
posted by Mister_A at 9:25 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

Most of the comments in this thread miss the point, but:

it's not about making sure every special nationality feels the luv

and

WILLFUL IS RIGHT BECAUSE METAFILTER NEEDS TO BE ALL THINGS TO ALL PEOPLE

do so in particularly spectacular fashion. Congratulations.
posted by stinkycheese at 9:26 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Oh my God, crunchland! Talk about dystopia!

*Shudders and goes away*
posted by mondaygreens at 9:26 AM on June 29, 2010

Again, I think both sides are right on this one: Americans need to be more aware that we're not the only inhabitants of the site and the rest of y'all need to stop taking every single chance to remind us that we're wrong.

Wrong.
posted by stinkycheese at 9:27 AM on June 29, 2010

Most of the comments in this thread miss the point, but:

The point of the thread is the dreadful irony that the entire world cannot share a single Coke.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:28 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Jesus can only love one.
posted by bardic at 9:30 AM on June 29, 2010

Excuse me, what does the title of this thread mean? Is there really Coke or is it just one of those cruel American in-jokes? Seriously!

Famous Coca-Cola television ad:

70's "I'd Like to Buy the World a Coke" Commercial.

posted by ericb at 9:31 AM on June 29, 2010

I can't believe we've come this far without the USian wars starting up again.

I mentioned it above.

I left out sex and religion in my rant about what Americans need to remember the rest of the world doesn't do like we do. Drat!

There may be some furious defensiveness going on. But to call out the majority on a site and inform that majority they need to be more aware and considerate is a bit obnoxious. We you're reminding someone of their manners you really need to make sure yours are in order.

I would also maintain the reminder is unnecessary. Like I said, we know, we get it.
posted by cjorgensen at 9:31 AM on June 29, 2010

When I wrote that the PM post might be better as a comment in the other thread, it was intended as a polite suggestion, and I thought I phrased it that way. I can assure you that I intended no offense to anyone. That said, I see Mitheral's point.

It might be a little late for this comment, but I don't think I've ever been specifically called out, and I think a response is deserved.
posted by box at 9:32 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

In an environment where American members of the site are often attacked simply for being American, it's very easy to get defensive when criticisms are raised.

I point you again to the 'boyzone' threads, where it was tirelessly (and correctly) repeated that men shouldn't feel defensive when criticisms of their behaviour were raised, even though that behaviour was not maliciously intended. To them it just seemed 'normal', because they were immersed in it.

Again, this is part of privilege -- many Americans appear blind to it, because they possess it.

I don't mind the site (and in fact I expect it to be) US-centric -- it is only natural. But a bit of consciousness raising that can nudge user behaviour in a bit more open-minded direction is never a bad thing.
posted by modernnomad at 9:36 AM on June 29, 2010 [19 favorites]

Famous Coca-Cola television ad.

1990 version: Coca Cola Hilltop Reunion Commercial.

2006 version: Coke Nascar Harmony Ad.

posted by ericb at 9:36 AM on June 29, 2010

I agree with vacapinta. People just forget that they need to give a context. The other week there was that "Help me plan a childhood nostalgia party for my boyfriend!" question where the OP forgot to mention when he was born. I don't think it's malicious or even particularly American-centric, I think askers just forget that we aren't their immediate social circle (in most cases anyway.)
posted by Solon and Thanks at 9:37 AM on June 29, 2010

Thin skin, thick with cancer.

(What is this "sun" of which you speak?)
posted by Sys Rq at 9:39 AM on June 29, 2010

Wrong.

NO U
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:40 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

Famous Coca-Cola television ad:
70's "I'd Like to Buy the World a Coke" Commercial.

Aired only in America, lolamirite?

...and keep it company, grow apple trees, honeybees, and site-wide harmony...
posted by fixedgear at 9:40 AM on June 29, 2010

Doesn't matter. just drink the stuff. It's soma, you know.
posted by crunchland at 9:41 AM on June 29, 2010

I'm not a denizen, I just live here.
posted by ook at 9:43 AM on June 29, 2010

I know it rankles somewhat that the default nationality here for a lot of people is US, but I do think it's a realistic demographic statement about the site. As mods we work to make sure that the mechanics of the site work for people from other countries but etiquette-wise there's not so much we can do. It doesn't seem cricket to delete someone's question just because they didn't mention what country they were from.

It's totally understandable that, for example, there are many more US-related threads here than threads about other countries - there are just many more Americans here. I totally agreed when it was decided that "cunt" used as an insult is not okay here, even though I'm a Brit and it tends to be seen as just fine here, because a majority of members are Americans and I understand the baggage the word has. (I also like that the moderation of the word seems to be, intentionally or not, lighter in threads about specifically British issues - it seems a good compromise.)

But when I saw that Askme question, all it reminded me of was when I saw the title of this Reddit post yesterday. Its obvious sexism aside, my reaction was wow, I guess it's taken for granted that Reddit is for men and boys.

I'm not saying atchafalaya did something really bad by any means - it was likely just an honest mistake. But I do believe that this kind of assumption of who "we" are is fundamental to a culture, who ends up feeling included and excluded and, over time, who stays, who joins, and who leaves. Is it possible for a mod to drop atchafalava a very short note to suggest making a small modification in a situation like this? I really don't want to add any more work for the mods, but to me this really makes a difference. And here's kind of why:

But for the record, my take on this is that MetaFilter is a site founded by an American guy based in an American city and currently moderated by American people. I knew this when I signed up. I'm playing in an American playground where (I suspect) the vast majority of users are American.

This is exactly my thought every time somebody makes this complaint. I think it's very cool that MetaFilter has so many international users, and nobody's saying that it's good to be a jerk toward them...but the site is US-centric because the site is US-centric. It wouldn't occur to me to march into a website written in French, hosted in France, moderated by French people, etc., and declare that because I had arrived, they were no longer allowed to be casual about being "French." I honestly don't understand the thinking.

I have never thought of this site or this community as an American playground, and I certainly wouldn't have signed up if I thought it was. Just because a site is founded and moderated by Americans, located in America and have more members who are American does not mean it is an American site - this is the internet, and I thought the very ethos of the internet is that it is international, which is how I have always seen the site, the spirit of it, and the way it's been moderated. Did I always have that wrong? Is this an international site, or an American site with guests?

There is a huge difference between accepting that the content here is likely to skew American as there are more American members - which is totally to be expected - and addressing the whole community as American by default. And in parallel with many of the sexism and racism threads Mefi has had, the effort needed to address wilful's concerns is this case is negligible, and yet the pushback is way beyond over the top. I don't know how better to communicate why I think this matters.


For reals? this is not the only site I participate on where this comes up. You know what? It's tired and lame every where. I participate on sites based in the UK and Australia as well. You know what? I never whine about the fact that the majority of people there are centric to their own country.

Wah wah wah.

If you were sitting in this person's parlor (ya, I'm that way) and they said the same thing would you correct them and ask them to specify exacting who "we" was?

That's the thing I guess - if I understand your mental model correctly, this parlor is owned by Americans, and non-Americans are guests. It's Matt's playground, and I'm his guest - but I thought I was a member of a community, rather than a guest to a community. And I imagine wilful feels the same way.

Wah wah wah.

Whenever anyone does the "Wah wah wah" thing these days, I think of this woman.
posted by catchingsignals at 9:43 AM on June 29, 2010 [26 favorites]

In an environment where American members of the site are often attacked simply for being American, it's very easy to get defensive when criticisms are raised.

But this wasn't an indictment of Americans. This was somebody pointing out, fairly politely, that some posters can be a little thoughtless in assuming that everyone else is from the same country they are. I appreciate that people complaining about your national holidays would get a little tiresome and that cjorgensen likely isn't the only person who dislikes it. I'm not sure how that's hugely relevant to this issue, though, unless anybody here is arguing that saying 'we' when they mean 'Americans' is merely the last desperate resort of someone who just couldn't take yet another anti-Fourth-of-July comment. If the argument is that Americans have already suffered enough on the Internet and this is one more nail being driven in to the coffin of free expression, I think we've gone some way down a track that the OP didn't intend to head off towards in the first place.

(Slightly petty confession: back when I used to do a lot more arguing politics on the internets, whenever the need to remind other people that they were speaking to an international audience became too annoying, I gave up on it and started saying things like "Well, all I have to say is that George Bush isn't MY president" instead. Oh, the capslock of vitriol!)
posted by Catseye at 9:45 AM on June 29, 2010 [4 favorites]

Too late I guess because everyone is recycling jokes down here. But I don't understand why the following aren't compatible:

1) atchafalaya should have specified that he was asking about US foreign policy, rather than simply saying "We."
2) This is not a big deal.
posted by grobstein at 9:48 AM on June 29, 2010 [9 favorites]

I'm a reasonably new member and an American citizen living in the US, and one of the things I love about Metafilter is its large non-US minority. You'd think I'd be better about remembering that it exists, too; I was born in the UK, my father is still a British citizen, and half my family lives in Great Britain. But I'm not; every time something like this comes up, I have this little stab of irritation that somebody's challenging my assumptions and then the greater deflation of "Oh, goddammit, I've gone and done it again."

While I think that it's fair and reasonable that the majority of the Mefites look at events with a US-centered perspective -- because the majority of Mefites live in the US and we are, after all, who we are -- I don't think there's anything wrong with the gentle *ahem* from the rest when the blinders come up too far. Just say "D'oh!" and move on.
posted by KathrynT at 9:50 AM on June 29, 2010 [5 favorites]

If the argument is that Americans have already suffered enough on the Internet and this is one more nail being driven in to the coffin of free expression, I think we've gone some way down a track that the OP didn't intend to head off towards in the first place.

Yes, I agree, and I don't think cjorgensen is saying this much. Being American on the internet means you're going to catch hell for things the country has done and is doing. While it's sometimes shrill and annoying, it's not oppression or a curtailing of free expression by any stretch. But fundamentally, extending the basic courtesy that your audience here is international - even if predominantly American - is so reasonable I'd think it was a given.

"Well, all I have to say is that George Bush isn't MY president"

Ah, now this brings back some heady memories. Mmm .... sweet, sweet outrage.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:54 AM on June 29, 2010

Most of the comments in this thread miss the point, but "it's not about making sure every special nationality feels the luv" do so in particularly spectacular fashion.

Says the person who compares pretty mild and tongue-in-cheek responses to complaints regarding US-centrism on a predominantntly US-populated site to 'telling women to get back in the kitchen'. I smells an insecure Canadian!

Anyhoos; I still think my point stands: the issue is AskMe utility, not rubbing non-Yankee fur the wrong way (Though in this case the latter would be averted if the former had been given more thought and attention).
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:56 AM on June 29, 2010

Answerers shouldn't have to go into profiles to make sense of a question, the onus is on the poster to provide them with the pertinent information.

They shouldn't have to in the ideal case, no. We specifically encourage the inclusion of context (location, etc) on the posting page for just that reason, as jessamyn noted above. And in general folks do a pretty good job of including context for their questions, or following up relatively promptly in thread when folks point out that clarification is needed.

But for those cases that don't play out ideally, checking someone's profile to see if the context is there is a basic smart move for the motivated asker to take. You're not obliged to, but you're not obliged to answer questions on AskMe in the first place either. If someone draws the line on their helpfulness at "I will read the question but I will not look at your profile page if I want more context", that's totally their call and they can walk away from any question they like if it comes to that. But that's as far as it goes. Checking a profile for context makes sense. It's one of those many little tools in the mefite utility belt.

I agree with vacapinta. People just forget that they need to give a context.

This my general feeling too. That the demographic of the site skews majority US (about 75% I think by the last numbers we saw, which is about steady over the years) means that by sheer force of numbers your typical failure-to-provide-geocultural-context event is going to be coming from a US citizen. That's not an indictment of US mefites, it's basic mathematics.

Aside from and in addition to that, I have no doubt there's an element of US-centricism involved in that the majority demo makes it a little easier for this or that US member to not remember to provide geocultural context in a way that a member from another country may be less likely to do. And that's not awesome, and I wish there was less of it and think it's fine for folks to civilly clarify/correct problematic assumptions when they come up; but I think that that effect specifically is responsible for less of it than the sheer-numbers issue above.

In other words, there's nothing simple to be done for the fact that people the world over are capable of forgetting to consider or provide non-local context; there's nothing simple to be done about the fact that Mefi happens to have a majority-US demographic; and the product of those two facts of life is that the bulk of failure-to-consider-context that happen on the site are likely to manifest as US-centricism. And while it's a phenomenon worth talking about, it's a mistake to see that skew in contextual failures as something that any given US mefite is disproportionately responsible for.

It's a systemic effect and the best way we can work on it as a community is to deal with it as such: an emergent effect of demographic circumstances, not something to be treated as an affront by US members but as something that's likely to effect everybody but by sheer force of numbers tends to show up as US-centricism.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:58 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

A far ruder, more deliberate example of US based insularity occurred recently at the start of this thread.

Two polticial threads about the same thing on the exact same day. would get cut even if it was in the US.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:02 AM on June 29, 2010

Aired only in America, lolamirite?

"The television ad 'I'd Like to Buy the World a Coke' was released first in Europe, where it garnered only a tepid response. It was then released in the U.S. in July, 1971, and the response was immediate and dramatic." *

"In 2006, the song was used again in the Coca-Cola commercial at least in the Netherlands. The song is covered by the Dutch singer Berget Lewis." *

posted by ericb at 10:02 AM on June 29, 2010

Let's all barbeque and eat apple pies!
posted by grapefruitmoon

Barbecue is a noun, not a verb.

at least it is in the South, whose idiosyncratic grammar should apply to ALL English speakers!

mmm... char-grilled hamburger...
posted by workerant at 10:05 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

It's one of those many little tools in the mefite utility belt.

Yep, it's between the batarang and recipe holder.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:09 AM on June 29, 2010

And across from the tiny array of flags that double as administrative feedback mechanisms and cocktail accessories.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:12 AM on June 29, 2010

mmm cocktails.
posted by Mister_A at 10:14 AM on June 29, 2010

Leela: "Look, I know there are no car chases, but this is important. One of these two men will become president of the world!"

Fry: "What do we care? We live in the United States."

Leela: "The United States is part of the world."

Fry: "Wow, I *have* been gone a long time."
posted by Rhaomi at 10:17 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

Yep, it's between the batarang and recipe holder.

I read 'batarang' as 'binturong', and was all happy about every Mefite getting one of these of their very own, but it was not 'binturong' and now I am sad.

Everyone needs a hug nocturnal forest-dwelling bearcat.
posted by Catseye at 10:17 AM on June 29, 2010

Apropos of barbecue:

Hoisin barbecued chicken

Barbecue sauce:

2/3 cup hoisin sauce,
3 tablespoons rice wine or sake,
3 tablespoons low-sodium soy sauce
3 tablespoons ketchup
2 tablespoons brown sugar
1 tablespoon minced garlic

Combine in medium bowl. Place 3/4 cup sauce in a large bowl; cover and chill remaining barbecue sauce.

Remaining ingredients:

8 chicken drumsticks, skinned and trimmed (about 2 pounds)
8 chicken thighs, skinned and trimmed (about 2 pounds)
Cooking spray

Preparation:

Add chicken to barbecue sauce in large bowl; toss to coat. Cover and marinate in refrigerator 8 hours or overnight.

Preheat oven to 375°.

Remove chicken from bowl; reserve marinade. Place chicken on a broiler pan coated with cooking spray. Bake at 375° for 30 minutes. Turn chicken; baste with reserved marinade. Bake an additional 20 minutes or until done. Discard marinade.

Bring remaining 3/4 cup barbecue sauce to a boil in a small saucepan; reduce heat, and cook until slightly thick and reduced to about 1/2 cup (about 5 minutes). Drizzle chicken with sauce.
posted by bearwife at 10:20 AM on June 29, 2010 [7 favorites]

As for jessamyn's spectacularly stupid suggestion to look at the profile page, well, that would have been helpful if, when the question had been asked, the profile gave any indication of nationality or location.

Hey rodgerd (heh; you wish, I bet), that's what we USians call a "dick move."
posted by Lynsey at 10:21 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Hey rodgerd (heh; you wish, I bet), that's what we USians call a "dick move."

Achievement Unlocked!
posted by Mister_A at 10:24 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

Being a mod is probably like that interrogation scene from Dark Knight.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:26 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

The registration might skew 75% American, but the active user base seems to have a lot more than 25% non-American users. Even if 25% is about right, that's still a healthy minority. Reflective use of "we" is a perfectly reasonable request.

I'm also surprised by the blowback. And I say this as an American who like others in this thread has been subjected to anti-American at home and abroad. Anti-American sentiment in real life and on the internet are both irrelevant to the specific concern raised by some members of this community-- a community which considers itself cosmopolitan and reasonable compared to others on the internet.
posted by vincele at 10:28 AM on June 29, 2010 [7 favorites]

grobstein: Too late I guess because everyone is recycling jokes down here. But I don't understand why the following aren't compatible:

1) atchafalaya should have specified that he was asking about US foreign policy, rather than simply saying "We."
2) This is not a big deal.

This X 1000. And I think that's why there has been so much defensiveness from both sides in this discussion. I agree about #1, I can see what it would make people feel excluded, and that it shouldn't happen very often.

But is it?

I'm sure things like this happen much more than I notice. But there are certain things on here that are going to exclude everyone at some point. There's a big difference between a focus on US-centric content (which is going to happen based on the demographics*) and exclusive language/offensive comments (which I would argue doesn't happen that much and gets called out most every time it does -- as it should) -- but too much of this discussion has combined them as if they are the same thing. Nobody here seriously thinks this if they give it two seconds of thought, but that might not be as fun as grarring.

Personally, I'd love to see more threads like more posts like the ones that started this whole discussion. The FPP gave me much more knowledge about Australian politics than listening to BBC World News on NPR ever did, and despite the "We" wording, the AskMe question posed a serious question that the OP obviously was curious about but that wasn't just relevant to his personal life.

* - I would love to see more non-US-centric content on the front page, and, if you could see what my click-through rate was, you'd know I'm not just talking out my ass. So those that feel MetaFilter is too American post heavy, please fix it. (Please do not view this as an Imperialist American Asshole Order; we've been trying to cut back on those lately.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:29 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Once should do it. Making wiseass remarks as if you're wilfully misinterpreting the OPs question isn't so grand either.

So as THAT GUY I'd first off like to to thank the mods for their even-handed moderation of this issue and for their forbearance with me on the topic. I did not post this myself only because I don't feel like it's going to make much difference and also because I try to live the philosophy of "just walk away" and not grind my axe in every possible venue. I said my piece in the thread as reasonably as possible and then I did my best to just LET IT GO. Metatalk is great but I think it's too easily ignored for such small issues as this and it's quicker to simply correct people in-line. Piling on is unnecessary and should be avoided. (Easy for me to say since I got FRIST PSOT).

Having said that, I think the issue is more one of having proper context as other posters have mentioned and less about some sore of nebulous American cultural Imperialism. Questions should stand on their own and not require research simply to parse them. The the lack of context is an outgrowth of said cultural imperialism is secondary.

Finally, the XIX Commonwealth Games are this October and everyone should tune in and watch a little netball, field hockey and rugby. Also, swimming without Michael Phelps.
posted by GuyZero at 10:29 AM on June 29, 2010

modernomad: Ok, the salient difference there is that men, on MetaFilter - outside of the sexism threads - are NOT told over and over again that they're wrong. This is not the only thread in which Americans are chastised. This is not the only subject where it comes up. It's pervasive. And insidious.

I don't believe that outside of the MeTa threads that people attacked men for being men. Some people do attack Americans for being Americans. (See notably telling us to stop wishing people a Happy Thanksgiving, a gesture not meant as harmful and certainly not offensive to non-Americans in the way that sexist overtures are offensive to women.) Since it's not directed at you, you probably don't notice it as much. There are times on MetaFilter where I feel it's expected of me to apologize for being American. I feel plenty of awareness at the fact that not everyone here is American, believe you me. The knapsack is damned visible and it would be nice to not to feel that not only do I need to unpack it, but to stop feeling tempted to use it as a shield.

As for this: Again, I think both sides are right on this one: Americans need to be more aware that we're not the only inhabitants of the site and the rest of y'all need to stop taking every single chance to remind us that we're wrong.

Wrong.

Glad that's settled and glad to see that you have such a cogent counter-argument.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 10:30 AM on June 29, 2010

You are talking about eastern North Carolina vinegar-based barbecue, right? Because that is the default definition of barbecue.

That was sarcasm, but can someone tell me what kind of barbecue I've eaten my entire life?

I'm from the West, not the South, and all the barbecue I've ever had has been relatively the same (kind of sweet and pretty sticky). And there's never any explanation of what kind it is -- it's just BBQ sauce, that's all. I know there are many different types of barbecue in the South, but I've never seen much discussion of barbecues out of the South, nor have I seen any explanation of which types of barbecue are the most common.

All I know is that the barbecue I'm used to doesn't contain mustard, and thank heaven for that.
posted by meese at 10:32 AM on June 29, 2010

1) atchafalaya should have specified that he was asking about US foreign policy, rather than simply saying "We."
2) This is not a big deal.

They're totally compatible. The trick is finding a way to correct him (or anyone) on #1 while at the same time not violating #2 and making a big deal of it.
posted by GuyZero at 10:33 AM on June 29, 2010

I point you again to the 'boyzone' threads

Please God, no.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:39 AM on June 29, 2010

No one seem to have noticed, but it turns out that atchafalaya's "we" was not the USA – he was referring to NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF). This puts me (and it's all about me, as my wife keeps telling me) inside this particular "we". This negates all the smug instructions to check the OP's profile to find out who "we" is; there's nothing bout the ISAF on his profile page.
posted by timeistight at 10:39 AM on June 29, 2010

Coca Cola Barbeque Sauce

12 oz / 355 mL Coca Cola
1½ c / 355 mL Heinz ketchup
1 medium onion, chopped fine
¼ c / 60mL cider vinegar
¼ c / 60 mL worcestershire sauce
1 t chili powder
1 t salt
hot sauce (Tabasco, Texas Pete) to taste

Bring ingredients just to boil, then reduce to simmer for 30 to 45 minutes as sauce thickens.
posted by crunchland at 10:41 AM on June 29, 2010 [10 favorites]

he was referring to NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF)

All the more reason to be clear although the ISAF isn't "allies" with anyone in a diplomatic sense so it's pretty easy to assume that "we" meant some country and not a multi-national military force (which happens to be 65% American anyway).
posted by GuyZero at 10:47 AM on June 29, 2010

While we're on the subject of America and food.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:51 AM on June 29, 2010

Trick is to remember that primarily you're working class, the universal class.
posted by Abiezer at 10:54 AM on June 29, 2010

Man, people love that Famous Bowl bit. Pros: it's hilarious; Cons: it makes me think of KFC.
posted by GuyZero at 10:56 AM on June 29, 2010

Man, I had KFC yesterday because I had a coupon and couldn't remember ever having KFC before. In retrospect I realize that it's quite possible that I indeed had KFC before yesterday and just blocked out the experience. Horrible shit, and not even cheap, which goes a long way towards mitigating horrible shittiness.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:03 AM on June 29, 2010

Dude, some of us are from Philly. Philly. Inferiority complex? We invented it.

Ahem.
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:06 AM on June 29, 2010

Hey rodgerd (heh; you wish, I bet)

While we agree with the general sentiment, we wish we didn't make sexjokes about someone's name and/or locality.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 11:08 AM on June 29, 2010

perhaps affecting a sort of pretend accent of the country they are visiting.

You know, at times there can be some usefulness in this approach. When I lived in Japan no one could understand me when I said I was from Ottawa. It wasn't that they had never heard of Ottawa, they just pronounced it differently. I guess my normal pronunciation sounds something like "Odduhwa." Over time I started just pronouncing it "Oh-TA-wa" like my friends and students did because it got tiresome going through the whole song and dance every time someone asked me where I was from.

That said, the loud and slow thing is really annoying.
posted by Kirk Grim at 11:09 AM on June 29, 2010

12 oz / 355 mL Coca Cola

Cane sugar Coca-Cola or HFCS Coca-Cola? THIS IS IMPORTANT.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:09 AM on June 29, 2010 [5 favorites]

I don't believe that outside of the MeTa threads that people attacked men for being men. Some people do attack Americans for being Americans. (See notably telling us to stop wishing people a Happy Thanksgiving, a gesture not meant as harmful and certainly not offensive to non-Americans in the way that sexist overtures are offensive to women.) Since it's not directed at you, you probably don't notice it as much. There are times on MetaFilter where I feel it's expected of me to apologize for being American. I feel plenty of awareness at the fact that not everyone here is American, believe you me. The knapsack is damned visible and it would be nice to not to feel that not only do I need to unpack it, but to stop feeling tempted to use it as a shield.

Yeah, that Thanksgiving Day thread sucked -- in fact, I remember being one of the chorus of non-Americans who shouted down Joe Clark for being so douchey about it.

But as far as the rest of that goes (you feeling that your privilege is hindrance not a help, you feel like you have to apologize for it, etc), I dunno.. to me that just sounds like the conservatives who bleat on in affirmative action threads about how being a straight, white, Christian male is the only person left who can be discriminated against these days... I don't buy their argument, and I don't really buy yours either. There are those who certainly pick on Americans too much (the THanksgiving thread is a perfect example), but they are hugely in the minority and claims that there is some sort pervasive anti-American sentiment amongst MeFites seems a bit excessive to me.

As I've indicated upthread, I don't think there is a pervasive pro-American bias either, and I don't get reflexively irate the odd time I come across it... I guess I'm just trying to suggest that I can understand why some others to get a bit frustrated. I just think a little eye-opening is a good thing for all parties involved, myself included -- if there truly is a significant element of this site that is anti-American, then consider my eyes opened and an apology proffered.
posted by modernnomad at 11:11 AM on June 29, 2010 [7 favorites]

I will state for the record that the Coca-Cola inside the US is inferior and foul. European Coke (I have not sampled any other varieties, though I hear Mexican Coke and Kosher Coke are also delicious) is superior in every way.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:11 AM on June 29, 2010

While we agree with the general sentiment, we wish we didn't make sexjokes about someone's name and/or locality
posted by MuffinMan at 11:12 AM on June 29, 2010

This thread is metafilter in a nutshell. A very long nutshell.
posted by jfuller at 11:12 AM on June 29, 2010

I will state for the record that the Coca-Cola inside the US is inferior and foul.

It's not quite that simple; in at least a lot of places in the US, you can find Mexican Coke pretty easily.

Beyond which, there's a distinction between domestically canned/bottled Coke (which, HFCS complaints notwithstanding, is at least consistent) and fountain coke which varies so much from restaurant to restaurant that it's a little game of soda roulette every time.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:25 AM on June 29, 2010

meese: "You are talking about eastern North Carolina vinegar-based barbecue, right? Because that is the default definition of barbecue.

That was sarcasm, but can someone tell me what kind of barbecue I've eaten my entire life?

I'm from the West, not the South, and all the barbecue I've ever had has been relatively the same (kind of sweet and pretty sticky). And there's never any explanation of what kind it is -- it's just BBQ sauce, that's all. I know there are many different types of barbecue in the South, but I've never seen much discussion of barbecues out of the South, nor have I seen any explanation of which types of barbecue are the most common.

All I know is that the barbecue I'm used to doesn't contain mustard, and thank heaven for that"


That would be Memphis style.
posted by ShawnStruck at 11:33 AM on June 29, 2010

yes we speak almost the same language as our larger neighbours,

Pedantry: This does not hold true for your example of Portugal.

Meh, I'd say it holds true just fine for Portugal. Korea was a bit of stretch, but hey.
posted by molecicco at 11:36 AM on June 29, 2010

There's some really good BBQ recipes in the thread...
posted by Skygazer at 11:40 AM on June 29, 2010

You are talking about eastern North Carolina vinegar-based barbecue, right? Because that is the default definition of barbecue.

That was sarcasm, but can someone tell me what kind of barbecue I've eaten my entire life?

I'm from the West, not the South, and all the barbecue I've ever had has been relatively the same (kind of sweet and pretty sticky). And there's never any explanation of what kind it is -- it's just BBQ sauce, that's all. I know there are many different types of barbecue in the South, but I've never seen much discussion of barbecues out of the South, nor have I seen any explanation of which types of barbecue are the most common.

All I know is that the barbecue I'm used to doesn't contain mustard, and thank heaven for that -meese

In Tennessee, it's all about pork pork pork, dry rubbed and pulled mostly (my favorite, and I'm not even from here, hooray!). Texas is brisket land. Those two I know about; I forget what Kansas City is. Saucy maybe?
posted by ifjuly at 11:40 AM on June 29, 2010

...we wish we didn't make sexjokes about someone's name and/or locality.
posted by and hosted from Uranus

Oh yeah? Why don't you stick it up your....

forget it.

Moving right along:

but I've never seen much discussion of barbecues out of the South

For the same reason you never see discussion about good pizza in the (American) South. There ain't no such thing.
posted by marxchivist at 11:40 AM on June 29, 2010

And people down here hate it when Northerners call grilling out or using one of those tiny grill things on their porch to heat up some zucchini and hot dogs "barbecuing." Oooh they hate it. Barbecue = tough but flavorful cuts of meat smoked outdoors low and slow, we're talking pretty much from 4 AM in the morning until sundown if you can manage it. Get yourself some neon mustard slaw and baked beans and maybe biscuits or cornbread and a whole roll of paper towels and you're good to go...fried pie or boiled peanuts work too. Yum!
posted by ifjuly at 11:44 AM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

I've always found Metafilter to be pretty cosmopolitan compared to other US sites.
posted by Kevin Street at 11:44 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

We are not amused.
posted by Artw at 11:47 AM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Why does no one appreciate a good mustard-based barbecue? I mean, seriously. South Carolina is wrong about a lot of things, but when it comes to barbecue sauce they know what they're doing.
posted by brina at 11:54 AM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

Ah, barbecue wars. There's a holy war I can understand.

BURN THE UNBELIEVERS!

With slow, indirect heat, of course.
posted by kmz at 11:58 AM on June 29, 2010 [10 favorites]

Thank you. That struck me as seriously tone-deaf but I didn't want to be the one to point it out.
posted by stinkycheese at 12:06 PM on June 29, 2010

i think it was a joke
posted by shakespeherian at 12:09 PM on June 29, 2010

So do I... and?
posted by stinkycheese at 12:14 PM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

I actually really enjoy the idea of people assuming I'm American. It's fun. Maybe I just like the potential of being American.
If it becomes important in the context of my post I'll specify, but part of the charm of this place is its US-centrism. I learn a lot about everyday stuff in the US. I'm steeped in localism for all the rest of my day anyway, so this is like a mini cyber-holiday.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:17 PM on June 29, 2010

But.... but... but.... I come here to get away from the heretics and mud people.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 12:18 PM on June 29, 2010

Metafilter: How may we offend you?
posted by crunchland at 12:19 PM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

EVEN WHEN IT COMES TO BBQ AMERICANS CAN'T HELP BUT OPPRESS US WITH THEIR CULTUTAL HEGEMONY. O, WON'T SOMEONE SPARE US THE ARROGANCE!

The best barbecuologist is in Spain, apparently. Hamburger Smoked ice cream
posted by MuffinMan at 12:22 PM on June 29, 2010

his is not solely something that offends non-Americans. Just an FYI but plenty of people here in the good old US of A are anti-genocide and/or anti-germ warfare and/or anti-murder.

Um. Yeah. And I'm one of them. I was kidding. Thanksgiving, I can get down with - but the stories about the "Pilgrims and the Indians" have always galled me. Even since I was a kid, I can remember being six years old and thinking "If they were such good friends, where are the Indians now?"

Look, it might not have been the most culturally sensitive thing for me to say - but to make the leap from me kidding around to thinking that I'm not horribly ashamed of my country's past and that I'm not totally 100% anti-genocide/germ-warfare/making people cry is exactly the kind of taking things in bad faith that I'm talking about being totally, totally exhausting.

Again: no, it wasn't the most awesome thing to say and yes, I was kind of bent when I said it, but geez - to say that I'm pro-genocide for saying it is taking it a bit far.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:23 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

OMG WAR ON THANKSGIVING vs OMG HORRIFICALLY INSENSITIVE JOKE
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:23 PM on June 29, 2010

I don't get annoyed by this, because it is an American site, but if I post a question about laptops saying I am in the UK it ticks me off to see people suggesting American sites; and it doesn't annoy me for someone in a thread to be absolutely shocked I don't know what 'Where's The Beef' means, just feel that they're presuming rather a lot.

Sometimes the internet reminds me of ads for football that forget that women quite like to watch it too.
posted by mippy at 12:24 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

b) ridiculous that someone feels entitled to celebrate Thanksgiving without being reminded that it wasn't actually so great, as though reality somehow steals your turkey and spits in your stuffing

See my above comment. Plenty of Americans recognize that Thanksgiving isn't really awesome in its history - but we KNOW THIS. There is absolutely no reason why every single year people on MetaFilter tell us to stop wishing people a HAPPY Thanksgiving. It's a wish of effin' happiness. Reclaiming the holiday for awesome or whatever.

And the bit about not knowing the terminology - I'm serious. I never know. And I DON'T want to offend anyone.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:25 PM on June 29, 2010

I'm sorry grapefruitmoon, I'm afraid you will now have to stand in the shame circle for a couple of hours of reeducation and then take a disloyalty oath to the American Death Machine.

And then I'm going to barbecue some wieners and we will have hot dogs.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:27 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Kirk Grim is right, affecting a "pretend accent" when visiting a country isn't rude; it's often the only way you can be understood. He's also right that speaking louder, but not more slowly, is dumb.
posted by smorange at 12:28 PM on June 29, 2010

Again: I was kidding, sorry if I truly offended anyone - and if you honestly and truly believe that I meant it in a pro-genocide kind of way or believe that I'm really a huge fan of the colonists' treatment of Native Americans... well... I really can't say anything more than "Look, I was kidding."
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:32 PM on June 29, 2010

I'm sorry grapefruitmoon, I'm afraid you will now have to stand in the shame circle for a couple of hours of reeducation and then take a disloyalty oath to the American Death Machine.

Damnit. I thought my most recent oath was good until 2012!
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:33 PM on June 29, 2010

Sometimes the internet reminds me of ads for football that forget that women quite like to watch it too.

In this instance football = soccer. We now return you to your regularly scheduled Thanksgiving bullshit.
posted by fixedgear at 12:35 PM on June 29, 2010

Look, if you're going to get all bent out of shape over "Happy Thanksgiving", you can get you ass up from the table and go out on the back porch.

Don't worry about your share of the turkey, I got that covered.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:39 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

I saw American Death Machine back in '98 on the Smallpox Blankets tour and they were just awful. Swearing a disloyalty oath, though? I mean, just cause I didn't like Frank Black's post-Pixies stuff doesn't mean I need to Photoshop him out of any band pictures in my collection.
posted by jtron at 12:41 PM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

And then I'm going to barbecue some wieners and we will have hot dogs.

Serious question: What's the difference between a wiener and a frankfurter?

Groan-worthy answer: About 600km.

But really, is there a difference?
posted by Sys Rq at 12:41 PM on June 29, 2010

Don't worry about it gfm, these guys don't remember when American Death Machine first started playing the clubs circuit. They were way hard-core back then; traveling from show to show in a couple of wood sided station wagons, before they became the giant sellouts that they are now.

Back then, there were no loyalty oaths or any of that crap. They were just thrilled if you showed up and bought a t-shirt.

I really think it was when they renamed the mosh pit a "shame circle" that they stopped being cool.
posted by quin at 12:43 PM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

The smallpox blanket line was funny.
posted by cavalier at 12:47 PM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

Ok, seriously. Vegetarian here, can someone tell me all the different varieties of southern barbecue? Like how they're different from each other, what they have in common, basic qualities? I have no experience at all with it, but I've always found it interesting in that warped way that many of us love cooking shows that center on meat.
posted by nevercalm at 12:49 PM on June 29, 2010

in my opinion I read you rather charitably considering that I don't know you, I don't know what you're thinking, and the comment you wrote was uncool.

You and I have both been on this site a long time. To tell me that you can't remember from my username enough conversations to get a general feeling for who I am is pretty specious.

I have to say that taking my criticism as part of pattern of shitty behavior towards you doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you yourself think what you wrote wasn't awesome.

Never implied a pattern. I don't think there IS a pattern of shitty behavior towards me, unless I'm not noticing it. I'm implying a pattern of shitty behavior in general with MeFites in which bad faith readings are presumed and conversations like this get heated over what was honestly a joke. Not just with me.

The Thanksgiving thing has become a total derail to the general point of: "Look, we know our culture has made mistakes. WE KNOW. To tell us every single time is tiresome." I don't know why I brought it up or contribute in it at all - it was just an obvious example. I personally hate the holiday, but it drives me bats when every. single. year. there's someone saying "Stop wishing me Happy Thanksgiving! I'm not American and you killed your indigineous peoples!" Yes, we know. You said it last year.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:53 PM on June 29, 2010

wtf is wrong with all of you jesus christ. Somebody's going to end up flaming out over a stupid Thanksgiving argument or some damn thing. Go outside and play already.
posted by rtha at 12:55 PM on June 29, 2010 [5 favorites]

nevercalm, there was an awesome AskMe about planning a BBQ road trip which should go some way toward answering your question. The one on best BBQ places also explains some of the regional variation.
posted by vorfeed at 12:56 PM on June 29, 2010

...fried pie or boiled peanuts work too.

What is 'fried pie?'
posted by ericb at 12:56 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Go outside and play already.

I've been doing so on and off all afternoon. I recommend it. I spent a good hour in a kiddie pool!
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:57 PM on June 29, 2010

OIC there kinda like a turnover and a McDonald's apple pie.
posted by ericb at 12:57 PM on June 29, 2010

Somehow my comment on Thanksgiving got lost... anyway, Thanksgiving is October 11th this year so eat all the turkey you want and have a good ol' time.
posted by GuyZero at 12:58 PM on June 29, 2010

What is 'fried pie?'

I don't know but it sounds awesome.
posted by Big_B at 12:58 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

What kills me is when we (US) can't win. In one thread we're a bunch of puritans that can't talk about erectile disfunction and in another were an over-sexed culture that is imposing Lady GaGa on the world!
posted by cjorgensen at 1:01 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

For the same reason you never see discussion about good pizza in the (American) South.

Best American pizza can be found in New Haven, CT (particularly Frank Pepe and his nephew's pizzeria, Sally's) and New York City!
posted by ericb at 1:02 PM on June 29, 2010 [4 favorites]

You know, frypie.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:02 PM on June 29, 2010

Good on ya, vorfeed, and thanks.

Oh man, I love me some boiled peanuts weirdest sounding awesome food I've ever eaten. ON THANKSGIVING.
posted by nevercalm at 1:04 PM on June 29, 2010

I just want to remind wilful that we are not all denizens of Japan: We are the world.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:04 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

I am still waiting to learn the truth about wieners.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:05 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'll have the turkey with a genocide of cranberry sauce.
posted by mullacc at 1:06 PM on June 29, 2010 [4 favorites]

I am still waiting to learn the truth about wieners.

My favorite wiener memory was the ones they served at Tivoli Gardens in Copehagen. They were gigantic ... and were mesmerizing to me as a child since they could turned my pee orange.
posted by ericb at 1:08 PM on June 29, 2010

Let me introduce you to this great website, Sys Rq. It's called Wikipedia.

The word frankfurter comes from Frankfurt, Germany, where pork sausages served in a bun similar to hot dogs originated.[1] Wiener refers to Vienna, Austria, whose German name is "Wien", home to a sausage made of a mixture of pork and beef[2] (cf. Hamburger, whose name also derives from a German-speaking city). In German speaking countries, except Austria, hot dog sausages are called Wiener or Wiener Würstchen (Würstchen means "little sausage"). In Swiss German, it is called Wienerli, while in Austria the terms Frankfurter or Frankfurter Würstel are used.
posted by crunchland at 1:08 PM on June 29, 2010

*Copenhagen*
posted by ericb at 1:08 PM on June 29, 2010

They were gigantic ...

Hmmm, maybe that's what turned me gay!
posted by ericb at 1:09 PM on June 29, 2010

Let me introduce you to this great website, Sys Rq. It's called Wikipedia.

So you're saying the difference is about 600km, crunchland?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:11 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Fried pie!
posted by rtha at 1:11 PM on June 29, 2010

My favorite wiener memory was the ones they served at Tivoli Gardens in Copehagen. They were gigantic ... and were mesmerizing to me as a child since they could turned my pee orange.

When I was there Tivoli Gardens was closed, but we had one on the Stroget (sp?) that had the closed-on-one-end-bun. Awesome and drip preventing.
posted by fixedgear at 1:15 PM on June 29, 2010

So you're saying the difference is about 600km, crunchland?

No, 373 miles.
posted by crunchland at 1:16 PM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

Fascist bastard. And after I favourited your Coca-Cola sauce recipe for including metric, to boot.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:18 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

What is 'fried pie?'

It's what you get with your chips in any decent Glasgow* chippy**, unless you ask for a sausage supper*** because we fry anything that doesn't move. (And if it does move we wait for it to stop moving and then fry it.)

*the one in Scotland, not the one in Kentucky, Montana, Missouri, Delaware, Alabama, California,, West Virginia, Virginia, or either of the two in Ohio, all of which are states of the USA.

**chippy: [noun] British slang for "chip shop", an emporium which serves up hot food consisting mainly of artery-clogging fried goods.

***the use of "supper" means sausage with chips (though obviously if you asked for a fish supper you'd get fish and chips). In Glasgow a sausage supper means two sausages and chips; in Edinburgh, it means one sausage and chips. Given that the standard terminology for sausage without chips in both cities is "single sausage", this means that asking for a single sausage in Glasgow confusingly nets you two sausages, compared to the parsimonious one sausage you'd get in Edinburgh, but then they serve everything with salt and sauce over there, not salt and vinegar, and that's a debate you really don't want to get into, though needless to say Edinburgh chippies are obviously COMPLETELY FUCKING WRONG on that particular point.
posted by Len at 1:22 PM on June 29, 2010 [17 favorites]

Edinburgh, Texas?
posted by kmz at 1:26 PM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

...we had one on the Stroget (sp?) that had the closed-on-one-end-bun. Awesome and drip preventing.

That's a Fransk Hotdog.

Danish Hotdogs/Wieners.
posted by ericb at 1:27 PM on June 29, 2010

Well I came in here to make a "We Are the World" quip, but Blazecock Pileon has already done, so I guess I'm just not going to make a comment at all.
posted by Mister_A at 1:28 PM on June 29, 2010

Then there's The Mermaid in Leith, where that one guy turned up and asked them to deep fry his winkie.
posted by Artw at 1:29 PM on June 29, 2010

In Glasgow a sausage supper means two sausages and chips; in Edinburgh, it means one sausage and chips. Given that the standard terminology for sausage without chips in both cities is "single sausage", this means that asking for a single sausage in Glasgow confusingly nets you two sausages, compared to the parsimonious one sausage you'd get in Edinburgh, but then they serve everything with salt and sauce over there, not salt and vinegar, and that's a debate you really don't want to get into, though needless to say Edinburgh chippies are obviously COMPLETELY FUCKING WRONG on that particular point.

Best explanation of sausage terminology ever. Thank you Len!

(I had a deep fried Mars bar in Glasgow! But I was told they only do it for daft tourists like me.)
posted by Omnomnom at 1:30 PM on June 29, 2010

It's what you get with your chips in any decent Glasgow chippy...

Kinda lik' an English/Cornish pasty, then, me lad?
posted by ericb at 1:32 PM on June 29, 2010

Oh ho ho... deep fried? Coca-Cola?

Fried Coke.
posted by functionequalsform at 1:33 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

kmz: Edinburgh, Texas?

Oh, bollocks. Maybe I should have mentioned all the other Edinburghs as well ;)

Omnomnom: Best explanation of sausage terminology ever. Thank you Len!

Not originally mine, I'm afraid; think it was stand up comedian Bruce Morton who first came up with it ...
posted by Len at 1:35 PM on June 29, 2010

Speaking of pie, I really miss the pecan pie at Camellia Grill in NOLA. They'd warm it up on the griddle and serve it with a scoop of vanilla ice cream. So. heavenly. When I got hit by a Mardi Gras parade float, my friends actually went to Camellia to get me pie. Because, as the whole world knows, there is no ailment that pie can't cure.

::hands pie out to everyone arguing in this thread::
posted by brina at 1:43 PM on June 29, 2010

wtf is wrong with all of you jesus christ. Somebody's going to end up flaming out over a stupid Thanksgiving argument or some damn thing.

What do you have against flaming out? My people have been flaming out for centuries, how DARE you mock our cultural heritage!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:43 PM on June 29, 2010 [5 favorites]

Fried Coke.

Fried Coke is soooooo 2006. The same noble culinary pioneer who brought us fried Coke has already gone one step beyond: deep fried butter.
posted by kmz at 1:43 PM on June 29, 2010

ericb: Kinda lik' an English/Cornish pasty, then, me lad?

Only if it's fried.

On which subject – and I'm sure this will cause muscle spasms for anyone with Italian heritage – a common [x]-supper dish in plenty of Scottish chippies is pizza. Dipped in batter, deep fried pizza.
posted by Len at 1:45 PM on June 29, 2010

Scotland : Deepfrying :: Bacon : Hipsters
posted by Artw at 1:47 PM on June 29, 2010

Um, guys. It's spelled "Pastry," not "Pasty." Geez.
posted by koeselitz at 1:49 PM on June 29, 2010

TAKE HIM TO THE WICKERMAN!
posted by Artw at 1:51 PM on June 29, 2010 [4 favorites]

Bacon loves Hipsters?
posted by Seamus at 1:52 PM on June 29, 2010

I have a rattan lady, but no wicker man.
posted by Mister_A at 2:01 PM on June 29, 2010

Ha, yes, burgers are battered and fried an aw. I remember my flatmate fae Cambridge coming home from the chippy deeply confused when I lived in Glasgow because he'd asked for a burger and gotten it battered and fried.

The other thing that I used to think was really normal (they sell them in Greggs!) but turned out to be a Scottish thing only was macaroni and cheese pies.

(Reminds me of the joke about the wee boy in a Springburn primary school who gets asked by his teacher to think of a sentence using the word 'macaroni', and after some intense thought, replies: "The doctor gied ma mam some pills for her heid, but they didna macaroni better.")
posted by Dim Siawns at 2:12 PM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

Anyone else remember getting Cornish pasties at Warburton's when they had a shop in Harvard Square?
posted by ericb at 2:14 PM on June 29, 2010

> In Glasgow a sausage supper means two sausages and chips; in Edinburgh, it means one sausage and chips.

That's it, I'm going to Glasgow.
posted by languagehat at 2:18 PM on June 29, 2010

Some of you people are really fucking annoying. That's right, you people.
posted by nestor_makhno at 2:27 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

BBQ Recipe

Ingredients

Some prawns*
A barbecue
Beer

Steps

1. Put the prawns on the BBQ. Make sure you heat it up first.
2. Drink beer while they cook.
3. When the prawns are ready, remove them from the heat and onto a plate.
4. Eat the prawns with a side of beer. You can add more beer to taste.

* If you can't find prawns then shrimp can be substituted.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:27 PM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

If you can't find beer. Move.
posted by iamabot at 2:39 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

languagehat: In Glasgow a sausage supper means two sausages and chips; in Edinburgh, it means one sausage and chips.

That's it, I'm going to Glasgow.

Not that I'm biased or anything, but I always thought the following illustrates the Glasgow/Edinburgh dichotomy better than anything else. You may know the old saying about people visiting a friend in Edinburgh round about dinnertime, who are told "you'll have had your tea" – in other words, don't expect me to feed you, even though it's dinner time. (And if you haven't heard Hamish and Dougal I suggest you do so, urgently; I suspect you'd love it.)

In the course of my working life I've been to plenty of gallery openings in Glasgow, everything from big, fancy corporate affairs to scummy little deals in which the exhibition in question is happening is some disused alley or squatted flat. Every time, there is free booze on offer. I can count on the fingers of one hand the Edinburgh gallery openings I've been to which don't involve paying for your own beer ...
posted by Len at 2:47 PM on June 29, 2010

If you can't find beer. Move.

oh, way to be inclusive towards our Iranian & Saudi members.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:51 PM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

1. Put the prawns on the BBQ. Make sure you heat it up first.
2. Drink beer while they cook.

I hope you drink quickly. Or like overcooked prawns.

Wait, you're an Aussie, right? So both, then?
posted by dersins at 2:59 PM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

The other thing that I used to think was really normal (they sell them in Greggs!) but turned out to be a Scottish thing only was macaroni and cheese pies.

Well why didn't you say so!?? Vacation planned!
posted by grapesaresour at 3:01 PM on June 29, 2010

Open the fridge bay doors HAL.
posted by iamabot at 3:03 PM on June 29, 2010

A SOUTHERN US PIZZA OR AT LEAST MY MOTHER ALWAYS MADE IT HERE IN THE SOUTHERN US SO IT TOTALLY COUNTS.

Make your pizza dough.

Get some black beans and cook them. Mash them with a little olive oil, cumin and chili powder.

Cut up some red onion and saute until they are translucent.

Cook some ground sirloin. Drain it on paper towels.

Spread the refried black beans on the dough. Spread the cooked chopped sirloin on top. Layer chopped green pepper and banana peppers on top. Cover it in some grated cheddar cheese mixed with Monterey Jack or what have you. Cook for about forty minutes at 325 or so.

Have sour cream, guacamole, fresh chopped tomatoes and cilantro and hot sauce waiting when it comes out of the oven. Cut into slices!

I have just made myself ravenous writing this all down.
posted by winna at 3:14 PM on June 29, 2010 [3 favorites]

Brandon, I thought you were straight.
posted by desjardins at 3:17 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

I want to go on the record here as saying that barbequed prawns are revolting and I tried them exactly once around ten years ago and I have never, before or since, actually seen anybody cooking a prawn in such a manner. I also notice that cilantro has been mentioned in this thread, for some reason, and invite the culprits to desist.
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:35 PM on June 29, 2010

In one thread we're a bunch of puritans that can't talk about erectile disfunction and in another were an over-sexed culture that is imposing Lady GaGa on the world!

Why not hedge your bets and just talk about Lady GaGa's erectile dysfunction?
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:38 PM on June 29, 2010

Let's not even talk about Brisbane and Adelaide.

Y'all got somethin' ta say about Brisbane, fancy-speaker?
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:40 PM on June 29, 2010

barbequed prawns are revolting

I'm ringing DIAC now, TD. Expect the officials to come around to sieze your passport, throw you in a Rodeo van and take you to Villawood.

My mates from the Central Coast (which is north of Sydney in NSW) tell me the approved method of prawn consumption is to buy a half kilo bag of cooked prawns from the fish and chip shop in a plastic bag, then shell and eat them by the side of the road, near a beach, washed down with cans of premix scotch 'n' coke.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:42 PM on June 29, 2010

Deep fried turkey is nice.
posted by Skygazer at 3:47 PM on June 29, 2010

...then shell and eat them by the side of the road, near a beach...

Oh, so they're the assholes that have been doing that!
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:53 PM on June 29, 2010

Yeah. When you see a couple of cars parked together by the side of the Pacific Highway, being watched by the police and surrounded by a fucking huge cloud of seagulls, it's my mates.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:55 PM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

McDonald's has been selling fried pie for decades now.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:00 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

"I'll have the turkey with a genocide of cranberry sauce."
I was afraid this would happen.
posted by Cranberry at 4:07 PM on June 29, 2010

With the sudden appearance of, apparently, all these aussies after 340+ comments, I'm beginning to understand where all the US resentment is coming from. All the good comments are made while you're asleep. By the time you guys show up for a thread, the rest of us are already bored and have moved on. It's like showing up to the party after the keg has been emptied, and all that's left are cups of warm beer with cigarette butts floating in them.

No wonder you're so cranky.
posted by crunchland at 4:09 PM on June 29, 2010

It's just past breakfast time here, crunchland.

New keg.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:11 PM on June 29, 2010

Foster's is maccas-munching seppo swill.

All better, Australia?
posted by Sys Rq at 4:13 PM on June 29, 2010

If you can't find prawns then shrimp can be substituted.

Oh, I think not.
posted by pompomtom at 4:15 PM on June 29, 2010

Ok, seriously. Vegetarian here, can someone tell me all the different varieties of southern barbecue? Like how they're different from each other, what they have in common, basic qualities? I have no experience at all with it, but I've always found it interesting in that warped way that many of us love cooking shows that center on meat.

Y'all are willing to edify on fried pies, but not barbecue? What's up with that?

Nevercalm, based on region, you take some from column A and some from column B and some from column C and some from column D and some from column E.

Column A, the meat

Beef brisket
Beef ribs
Pork shoulder (to become pulled pork)
Pork ribs
Whole hog (the whole thing, including skin, split open and gutted)
Sausage (pork, beef, or a mixture)
Chicken

Column B, the preparation and finishing

Dry rub, no sauce
Dry rub, with sauce added during cooking
Dry rub, with sauce served on the side
No rub, sauce added during cooking
No rub, sauce served on the side

Column C, the sauce

Tomato (usu. ketchup) based, varying between a little sweet and pretty damn sweet
Mustard based
Vinegar based
Mayo-based (specific to Alabama BBQ chicken)

Column D, the cooking

Low and slow, with smoke, using indirect heat (predominates)
Hotter and faster, with smoke
Grilled (pretty much violates the principle of BBQ, but used by some for ribs or chicken)

Column E, the wood

Many regions have a preferred hardwood used for BBQ. Mesquite predominates in large parts of Texas because it's plentiful, but other regions find it too acrid. Other common woods are hickory, pecan, oak, and fruit woods. Regional preference trends towards ready availability.


So, where I grew up in Texas, it was mostly brisket and sausage. The brisket was served with a tomato-based sauce after cooking. Ribs weren't as common (they're more so now), and they were usually beef ribs, with sauce. (I think Chili's popularized pork Baby Back Ribs in the 80s, so it's more common to find them in non-chain restaurants around northern Texas now. That's just an observation, though, and people with memories older than mine might disagree.)

Central Texas is mostly brisket with a dry rub, served with sauce on the side if you absolutely have to have it. You tend to get more respect if you eschew the sauce down there. There's sausage, too. I don't recall ribs being a big deal down there.

You won't find much pork barbecue in Texas, except when served by expats from further north or east.

Memphis is mostly ribs (some served wet, with sauce; some served dry, with rub) and pulled pork. Tomato-based sauce.

KC is responsible for the kind of sauce that most Americans outside barbecue regions would recognize as barbecue sauce. I think they don't limit themselves to one choice of meat -- with brisket, ribs, and pork being equally popular. I might have that wrong, though. Another feature of KC barbecue is the 'burnt end,' the charred edges cut from a brisket that's got more crust (or bark, in BBQ parlance) than moist meat.

Move east to the Carolinas and you'll find pork. In parts of NC, it's pulled pork with a sauce made from vinegar and spices. Also, ribs. Other parts of NC lean towards a tomato-based sauce. And still others go for chopped whole hog with a vinegar-based sauce.

South Carolina is responsible for mustard-based sauce. Again, mostly pork.

Alabama white barbecue is kind of an anomaly in that it consists of chicken and mayo, neither of which belong at a purist's table, but it's popular in its region, so some people think it ought to be included.

Here out west, it's different still. In California, barbecue almost always means Tri-tip. California tri-tip is generally served with a tomato-based sauce like that found in Kansas City. In Nevada and other parts of the west where there are/were large populations of Basque sheepherders, BBQ is often lamb.

And then there are the regional variations with the side dishes, which I don't have time to go into here. Beans, cole slaw, and vegetables prepared in various ways (fried okra in Texas, yum!) all have regional variations and varying importance by regions. Bread, too, varies -- some regions turn to corn bread, some yeast rolls, some white bread. A coworker recently told me that in his part of Southern Ohio/Kentucky, rye bread was traditional. I'd never heard of that one.

I feel I should also include after this dissertation that it was BBQ that was responsible for my original renunciation of 13 years of vegetarianism. My mom had open heart surgery a few years ago. It was really stressful, and the outcome of her surgery was very much going to determine whether she had months or years (or decades) to live. The hospital was across the street from one of the long-time favorite barbecue joints in Dallas, Sonny Bryan's. During the week my mom was in ICU, I went over there every day for lunch for some brisket and the coldest Shiner Bock I've ever encountered in my life. I'd walk back into the cardiac ICU reeking of smoke, and I swear the cardiac nurses gave me the stink-eye.

So while I threw away 13 years of a meat-free existence and probably did some hardcore damage to my arteries, I also learned that good barbecue -- even the simple experience of it, if not its consumption -- can be quite restorative.

And the surgery went really well, by the way.
posted by mudpuppie at 4:23 PM on June 29, 2010 [40 favorites]

mudpuppie, in Western Kentucky they barbecue mutton in a tomato-based sauce.
posted by dilettante at 4:32 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

USA! USA! USA! Sorry...
posted by ishotjr at 4:33 PM on June 29, 2010

Mutton! That's right -- the rye-bread-eating coworker also grew up with mutton. I'd forgotten that part.

We never did get to talking about sauce, he and I.
posted by mudpuppie at 4:34 PM on June 29, 2010

SPOILER WARNING, US-CENTRIC

> A SOUTHERN US PIZZA

There may not be such thing as a specifically southern-US pizza but I've never had a deerburger okra pizza anywhere else. That may not count so much, though, because it was a one-off.

We were all going "where should we go to eat" and this one lady said "Let's not go anywhere, that'll take too long, let's cook here. I can make pizza dough." So, what to put on it? Well, we had tomato paste and oregano and a hunk of romano so technically we could make a sort of pizza. But isn't there anything else to put on it? It turns out there's a garden in which the only thing ready to be picked is some baby okra, and there's also a couple of frozen packages of deerburger in butcher paper. It was actually a lot better than this may sound because hunger is the best sauce and we were pretty disorganized and it took two and a half hours to get it all ready and by then we were all ravenous as Siberian wolves in декабрь. (A certain amount [= a lot] of non-tobacco smoke may have had something to do with both the ravenous and the disorganized.)

Here endith the deerburger okra pizza saga. It's a lot quicker to tell than it was to live.
posted by jfuller at 4:55 PM on June 29, 2010

mudpuppie, you've made me so damn hungry.
posted by rtha at 4:59 PM on June 29, 2010

> Every time, there is free booze on offer.

That's it, I'm going to Glasgow.

And "Hamish and Dougal" does sound great; I'm particularly impressed by the way they inspired some Wikifascist to froth in bold type at the start of the page:

It is proposed that this article be deleted because of the following concern:

So unreferenced and full of original research (for so long) that I want to weep. No indication whatsoever that the topic is especially notable; this is inevitable when no references at all are provided, of course.

See this snottery aul yop? He's a pure waste o space!
posted by languagehat at 5:02 PM on June 29, 2010

Brandon, I thought you were straight.

It's been a rough day.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:17 PM on June 29, 2010

Awesome comment, mudpuppie....I favorited that thing so hard my mouse cracked.

Seriously tho, I'm into serious heat and I love to cook, so I was looking to play around with rubs and sauces and whatnot and see what sort of non-meaty goodness I can come up with.

I'm sure I'll get flamed half to death for that, but whatevs. I'm sure all my Non-USian peeps will back me up.

Or maybe not.
posted by nevercalm at 5:36 PM on June 29, 2010

Most Native Americans I know take Thanksgiving really seriously.

Columbus Day can go fuck itself though.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:47 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

"True, but in this case, the Asker is curious about American-Indian relations, but leaving out the 'American'. If I solicit Ethiopian restaurant recommendations without telling people where I am, or ask 'What book should I read next?', is it fair to potential respondents or myself to assume they can just look at the LibraryThing widget in my profile to get a feel for the kind of stuff I like?"

The punishment for lack of context is inapt answers. Et viola! The problem, she is solved!
posted by klangklangston at 5:56 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

"While we agree with the general sentiment, we wish we didn't make sexjokes about someone's name and/or locality."

posted by and hosted from Uranus

SRSLY?
posted by klangklangston at 5:57 PM on June 29, 2010

Seriously tho, I'm into serious heat and I love to cook, so I was looking to play around with rubs and sauces and whatnot and see what sort of non-meaty goodness I can come up with.

I've got two packets of these coming! Well, unless they get seized at customs.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:01 PM on June 29, 2010

someone needs to post some of those mustard and vinegar based barbecue sauce recipes. hell, even the mayo based.
posted by freejinn at 6:15 PM on June 29, 2010

I've got two packets of these coming! Well, unless they get seized at customs.

You know, I meant to find where to buy those. If you still have the site, can you memail it to me please?

So, my wife and I found an awesome Thai restaurant out by us. Which is unusual, cuz nothing is by us.

We ordered, and I got spicy noodles. The waitress asked me how hot and I said "make it as hot as you want."

She sort of gave me the raised eyebrows without looking up from her pad. "Like Thai hot?"

"You can literally tell the chef to make it as hot as he wants."

A few minutes later she plunks it down in front of me and says "Do you mind if I watch you take the first bite?" I just laughed and ate a forkful.

And really, I was expecting more. She was literally speechless and just walked away. I heard he talking to the chef, saying "Dude, he didn't think it was hot at all." She came back with a bowl of the chilis and said "This is what he put in."

My wife suggested I just take a forkful, so I did. She said something like "That's ridiculous!" I dumped the whole bowl in and happily ate the rest.

After she took the plates away, I see this little old Thai guy duck around the corner. "You live Thailand?" I said no. "Ever been Thailand?" Nope. He laughed, shook my hand and walked away.

Turns out he was the owner, and no one could believe how hot what I had just eaten was. Apparently the owner's food is usually so hot that no one can touch it, and even he was surprised. Pretty funny.

Anyway, it was hot, but it didn't feel THAT hot. I should've asked what those chilis were.
posted by nevercalm at 6:19 PM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

My experience from every single Indian or Thai restaurant I've eaten at in the west is that even if you say 1000 times that you want it "Indian hot" or "Thai hot" they still seem to parse that as "stupid whitey thinks he wants something he cannot eat; let's give him half strength and see if he can handle that..." and you end up with something about as spicy as a mild breakfast channa dhal.

When I think "Thai hot" I'm reminded of a chicken larb from a streetstall that was literally around 50% sliced up thai "rat shit" chillis. It took about an hour to eat, and three large bottles of Beer Chang (scoop larb into mouth, chew once & gulp down, glug on beer bottle, wash beer around mouth until it reaches body temperature, repeat) and it was still fiendishly painful.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:36 PM on June 29, 2010 [2 favorites]

Once more into the beach, sand friends.
posted by nola at 6:45 PM on June 29, 2010

If they were playing me for a whiteboy tourist rube in an all-white non-tourist town in PA, they really did a great job, is all I'm saying.
posted by nevercalm at 6:56 PM on June 29, 2010

I love when these fighty and potentially flameout-causing threads devolve into harmless snark and food porn down here at the bottom.
posted by Aizkolari at 7:01 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

"My experience from every single Indian or Thai restaurant I've eaten at in the west is that even if you say 1000 times that you want it "Indian hot" or "Thai hot" they still seem to parse that as "stupid whitey thinks he wants something he cannot eat; let's give him half strength and see if he can handle that..." and you end up with something about as spicy as a mild breakfast channa dhal.

When I think "Thai hot" I'm reminded of a chicken larb from a streetstall that was literally around 50% sliced up thai "rat shit" chillis. It took about an hour to eat, and three large bottles of Beer Chang (scoop larb into mouth, chew once & gulp down, glug on beer bottle, wash beer around mouth until it reaches body temperature, repeat) and it was still fiendishly painful."

I think you're going to the wrong spots. I've been to Thailand, back when I still had the tolerance to put Endorphin Rush or Dave's Insanity on my food like it was regular salsa, and I know that the neighborhood Thai joints in Ann Arbor, or even one out off of Telegraph near Farmington Hills (in that great featureless Michigan sprawl) were willing to kill you with chilis if you asked. Now being slightly older, I find that my mouth still writes checks that my ass can't cash, as it were, so I've stepped back, but almost all of the Indian places I eat at are lunch counters that cater to Indian folk and thus don't give you any medium/mild/hot option. I do bemoan the general blandification of ethnic food and that the "medium" option is usually too mild, but "hot" or "Thai hot" is still plenty spicy.
posted by klangklangston at 7:12 PM on June 29, 2010

nevercalm - nothing to do with tourism. Overseas you usually get exactly what the locals eat - as often as not, it all comes from the same pot.

(Restaurants in international hotel chains may be different & scaled back to western tastes, I don't know)

What I'm talking about is how once people set up shop in the west, their scale of what is hot or not gets recalibrated, such that the menu item marked with five out of five chillies is often milder than the mildest dish you'd eat overseas. This happens even if you seek out the restaurant in the middle of [ethnic enclave] where mostly only [ethnics] eat, although there you might get a medium-strength dish if you're lucky.

When you pull the staff up & mention that you asked for "[country] hot" they'll often reply with "yes, we heard what you asked for but western people ask for this and then they cannot eat it, so we made it hot for your tastes"

This shits me no end, because it means the only way I can get a proper chilli hit is to make the dish at home.

Obviously YCMV, and I'm not second-guessing your experience; just whingeing about a personal gripe.
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:13 PM on June 29, 2010

I will say that the Korean food I had in Korea had the spiciest normative level of any cuisine I've had, though I've not been to India. Even Thailand seemed to have more balance between sweet, sour and spicy.
posted by klangklangston at 7:16 PM on June 29, 2010

You know, I meant to find where to buy those. If you still have the site, can you memail it to me please?

chileseeds.co.uk [memailed as well]

I just placed the order this morning! Well, actually I placed it last night after emailing them and asking if they shipped to the US. I was just going to write them a letter and send some pounds through the mail (since that's my schtick), but you have no idea how hard it is to get a single £20 note in Iowa. I finally gave up and went the PayPal route. They contacted me and said they needed more postage, so I sent that along this money and I should have my chili in a week or two, but the best part....

Flaming Chocolate Fireballs!

I only found two places that made food hot enough for me. One was called Sri Lanka and was in MN, but closed, the other was in Des Moines and called Taste of Thailand, but closed. Every time I eat at a place and order the food "as hot as you can make it then double that," the cook comes out and looks at me. It's gotten to where I want to mock the spice. "Oh, I'm sure they may have made it hot in your grandfather's day, but they don't make it like they used to."

"Next time I make it hot for you," they promise, which just pisses me off, since that's how I ordered it this time!

That said, I'd also found that I like it way spicier than most of the people cooking it.

I tried growing my own Bhut Jolokia this year. That's a self-link to me ordering them. I got plants to get about 3 inches high, but then I over saturated the soil, so decided to leave the humidity dome off for the evening. My cat ate every damn one of the sprouts. She didn't seem the worse for wear.

Next year I am going to "gift" some seeds to these people I know that actually garden and have a greenhouse.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:42 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

This thread has now made me hungry in a way that leaves me a danger to myself and to others.
posted by elizardbits at 7:52 PM on June 29, 2010

My wife and I fell in love with Thai food in Thailand, and we grab any chance we've got to eat it. Luckily, in Japan, Thai food hasn't really gone mainstream yet, so it's usually still pretty close to Thai food, not yet watered down for the masses. In Hawaii, my wife and I went to Keo's, supposedly a good, authentic Thai restaurant. It was pretty damn bland. I mean, no spice. No heat. Even the chili dipping sauce was pretty much pure sugar. Curses, I say.

As for barbecue, I just made my first ever for my annual birthday bbq (feel free to come by, just let me know in advance, and I prefer expensive gifts). I didn't have time for long, slow cooking, so I got two pork loin roasts*, brined them with fake buttermilk, rubbed them with a mix of cayenne, chipotle, brown sugar, garlic, black pepper, oregano, salt, and paprika, and tossed them on the grill with hickory smoke for about 2 hours at about 300F. After that, I doused them in Dr. Pepper sauce (dear god, it's fantastic: ketchup, cider vinegar, brown sugar, onion, garlic, and Dr. Pepper, and I tossed in a couple chipotles for kick). I then hacked it into slabs and stuffed it into grill warmed pitas, and all was right with the world. Sadly, it soon was finished, and all of the pain and woe came rushing back in.

At least until tonight, when after I get home, I take the pork belly out of the fridge where it's been resting after being cured. Oh, bacon, I shall make. And joy will return. Until that heart attack.

^{* seriously, I was surprised at how juicy and tasty they were. Everything I read said that loin wasn't all that great for bbq, that it gets dry too fast. All at once, I made my first step into barbecue and brining. Both are beautiful, beautiful arts.}
posted by Ghidorah at 8:17 PM on June 29, 2010

Hey, here's a question for the rest of the world that's not worth wasting an AskMe on:

Earlier today, riding around with one of my coworkers, we were listening to rebroadcasts of World Cup games, and I was struck by how much more I enjoy listening to soccer on the radio than watching it on television. I'm even watching the same game now on TV and thinking about how much more vivid and interesting it seemed just hearing descriptions, and how much more significant everything felt. Is this common? I know with baseball here in the US, I also prefer the radio when I can get it (with ideally, the television on and sound off). I was wondering if TV announcing does the sport a disservice.
posted by klangklangston at 8:22 PM on June 29, 2010

"Next time I make it hot for you," they promise, which just pisses me off, since that's how I ordered it this time!

Haha, so true.

To be fair to the restauranteurs, it must be something born from bitter experience: whitey orders dish hot, then sends it back with "When I said very hot I didn't mean impossible to eat hot!" and then an argument ensues over whether they're entitled to a replacement dish or not.

I bet the staff even have a special slang nickname for these kinds of customers.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:25 PM on June 29, 2010

I order mine as hot as they can make it and then painstakingly remove every piece of chilli.
posted by turgid dahlia at 8:32 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

I tried growing my own Bhut Jolokia this year.

I do not have permission to enter the Chile Pepper Institute. :-(
posted by meese at 8:36 PM on June 29, 2010

Why do people in hot climates want to eat even hotter food? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm seriously wondering why this is common to hot climates.
posted by desjardins at 8:41 PM on June 29, 2010

Eating spicy food = sweating = evaporative cooling. Simple as that.
posted by dersins at 8:49 PM on June 29, 2010

I've heard two theories ... one, is the spicy food makes you sweat without having to do strenuous exertion, and as your sweat evaporates, you cool yourself off. The other reason I've heard is that in hot climates, in the days before there was easy access to refrigeration, the spice in the food inhibits the growth of bacteria and microbes, so the spicier the food is, the less likely it is to spoiling or making you ill.
posted by crunchland at 8:53 PM on June 29, 2010

probably the first one, the sweating is most likely. I made some Thai food the other night, and because of the profuse sweating it caused, I felt so refreshed.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:04 PM on June 29, 2010

Found some documentation on the second, if National Geographic is to be believed.
posted by crunchland at 9:06 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

Because they can.
posted by pracowity at 9:10 PM on June 29, 2010 [1 favorite]

When you pull the staff up & mention that you asked for "[country] hot" they'll often reply with "yes, we heard what you asked for but western people ask for this and then they cannot eat it, so we made it hot for your tastes"

Well, I practically put Pure Cap in my drinking water, and this was decent. Unless this off-the-boat Thai guy comes out in his wife beater with a lit cig to shake everyone's hand to puff em up. I'm gonna go ahead and second that you're not going to the right places.
posted by nevercalm at 9:48 PM on June 29, 2010

I do know a place that does a pretty mean fish tikka. Mostly frequented by Pakistani cab drivers.

But what's more important right now is the breaking news that former Prime Minister John Howard has failed in his bid to become president of the International Cricket Council!
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:03 PM on June 29, 2010

About "Because they can." -- I was only half joking.

Peppers like hot weather. Chili likes warm and humid weather. Cheap and easy spices for people who live in a hot climate. But not so much for Sweden, where they'll have to rely more on salt to spice their fish.

On the other hand, salt comes from the sea, which Sweden has a lot of, so they'll make much use of salt there, while in the interior of India or Mexico, far from the sea, you aren't going to see as much dependence on salt.

Anyway, that's my armchair theory about spices.

[I also have a spicy theory about armchairs if you're interested.]
posted by pracowity at 10:59 PM on June 29, 2010

Yeah, spicy foods are generally found in places where spices are abundant. Those places are hot.

Also, the egg came first. Duh.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:15 PM on June 29, 2010

But not so much for Sweden, where they'll have to rely more on salt to spice their fish.

Just this week I've been eating heaps of Swedish herrings preserved in either a creamy mustard sauce, or a creamy dill sauce, on rye.

This was all bought at Ikea, of all places, so I had to assemble the bread myself.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:23 PM on June 29, 2010

Regarding the wah wah wah woman posted above: I am so embarrassed that I know they're at a Fox News New Year's Eve viewing party, because I spent my New Year's drunk in a Seattle hotel room filming the TV with my camera because we I never get to watch Fox News in Canada and I just couldn't pull myself away from it.
posted by avocet at 11:35 PM on June 29, 2010

My first callout and I almost missed it!

Fellow MeFites, I confess to sheer laziness in posting my question in the way that I did.

I did not mean to export my culturally imperialistic worldview, or to normalize America as the way for the world or anything like that. I just wanted a good answer to what I thought was a good question. I not only realize my friends at MetaFilter are from other countries, I come here purposely to get their perspective.

I'd like to say that as humans on this world the "we" in my question should really refer to all of us who have an interest in why billions of dollars and untold quantities of misery and hatred are being dropped on people on the other side of the world (from me).

I think we should all have a real interest in the underlying question of how we're going to make it from here to some kind of basic level of human rights around the world, but hey, if I can't even phrase a simple question without pissing off a good chunk of Metafilter how can I hope to articulate that? I'm only working with one question a week, anyway. So I'll just stick to my original question about India.

I've seen a lot of great responses here on both sides, and a lot of great humor, which is what I like most about this place. Thanks for making my day.
posted by atchafalaya at 2:48 AM on June 30, 2010

I bet the staff even have a special slang nickname for these kinds of customers.

ฝรั่งขี้นก
posted by elizardbits at 4:27 AM on June 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

atchafalaya, rest assured I'm not annoyed at you at all. It's just a general reflexivity of posters on this site, that I'm trying to nudge back in the right direction. Of course you didn't consciously normalise America. But unconsciously you did. Next time you of course wont.
posted by wilful at 4:47 AM on June 30, 2010

Of course you didn't consciously normalise America.

I realised what you did there.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:50 AM on June 30, 2010

Thanks for being a good sport about it :)

PS: box, I don't think you did anything wrong by mentioning the other Aussie PM thread. 2nd post on the same subject usually does get flicked for being a double, I was expecting it to happen myself.
posted by harriet vane at 4:53 AM on June 30, 2010

grapefruitmoon, I totally like you. But you missed the mark on this one. Whether you intended it to be or not, what you said was offensive. Not to hypothetically offensive. Actually offensive.

I already apologized. Twice. What more do you want?

Again, no need to accuse me of being specious because you don't like what I'm saying to you. That plus accusing me of bad faith is adding up to uncool.

Your treatment of me in this thread is also uncool. Not just my opinion, I've recieved MeMail from multiple users saying "I don't know what her problem is." We're even. If you want to continue this, feel free to MeMail me, but we don't need to keep this going here.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 5:14 AM on June 30, 2010

I had a tiny taste of a Naga-based curry last week at a food festival. Just a tiny bit on a cracker. My tongue buzzed for about twenty minutes until I got some ice cream. I love spicy food but have no tolerance for it whatsoever.
posted by minifigs at 5:25 AM on June 30, 2010

Not to hypothetically offensive. Actually offensive.

I thought it was hilarious myself and considering GFM's background here on the site, far from offensive. Clearly she was goofing off, no clue why some are having trouble seeing that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:32 AM on June 30, 2010 [4 favorites]

I thought it was hilarious myself and considering GFM's background here on the site, far from offensive.

Thanks, Brandon. I appreciate knowing that I don't have a history of appearing offensive.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 5:39 AM on June 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

You know what might be a useful guide to throw together? "The Mefi Compendium of Restaurants Who Will Serve You Abusively Hot Food."

I'll start: Pho's Hot and Spicy Thai Cuisine, Chicago IL
posted by SpiffyRob at 6:12 AM on June 30, 2010

ifds,sn9: You have MeMail - as I said, I don't think that we need to continue this discussion here.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:20 AM on June 30, 2010

I appreciate knowing that I don't have a history of appearing offensive.

The day is young though!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:28 AM on June 30, 2010

I appreciate knowing that I don't have a history of appearing offensive.

The day is young though!

True that! I have plenty of time to stick one or both feet in my mouth many times over! [NOT FOOT IN MOUTH-IST.]
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:30 AM on June 30, 2010

I didn't know people actually like actively celebrated Columbus Day. Seems like more of a Hey I Got The Day Off Day situation, at least when it wasn't a Fuck You, I Don't Get The Day Off Day situation instead.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:49 AM on June 30, 2010

SRSLY?

Sort of? I don't think it's cool to make fun of somebody's name as part of of a take-down, but I have tons of respect for the poster of said take-down so I framed it as a bit of a joke.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 6:50 AM on June 30, 2010

tell us why you're closed
tell us why you're closed
why why why
are you closed?
I want to go shopping in the eaton center...
posted by crunchland at 7:01 AM on June 30, 2010

I'm 3/8ths, I take it half-seriously. DATA POINT!

In my experience, every white guy I've ever met is one-sixteenth Cherokee. So there's that.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:02 AM on June 30, 2010 [3 favorites]

McDonald's has been selling fried pie for decades now.

True, but their fried pie is like a plug of phlegmy mucous wrapped in a blood blister scab. That's not to say I don't enjoy it, but let's be honest with ourselves here.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:05 AM on June 30, 2010 [2 favorites]

True, but their fried pie is like a plug of phlegmy mucous wrapped in a blood blister scab. That's not to say I don't enjoy it, but let's be honest with ourselves here.

HOW is it that the center of those things is ALWAYS hot? It defies the laws of thermodynamics. I demand that McDonald's pies be arrested for violations of the basic rules of physics.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 7:06 AM on June 30, 2010

MetaTalk: like a plug of phlegmy mucous wrapped in a blood blister scab. That's not to say I don't enjoy it, but let's be honest with ourselves here.
posted by cgc373 at 7:07 AM on June 30, 2010 [3 favorites]

When I lived in Massachusetts, we got Patriots' Day (April 19th-ish) off. Only two other states celebrate it. I always wonder why other states hate freedom so much.
posted by rtha at 7:08 AM on June 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

If we want to go with offensive STATE Holidays, Rhode Island still celebrates V-J Day. I think it's called "Victory Day" or "We wanted a day off in August" or something, but it's still got some pretty strong undertones of "OH HI ATOMIC BOMB!"
posted by grapefruitmoon at 7:10 AM on June 30, 2010

How does New York actively celebrate Columbus Day? Is there a parade or something?
posted by JanetLand at 7:14 AM on June 30, 2010

In my experience, every white guy I've ever met is one-sixteenth Cherokee. So there's that.

It's an adjusted score, like the SATs. Fullblood is 17/16ths.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:14 AM on June 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

cortex: "I didn't know people actually like actively celebrated Columbus Day. Seems like more of a Hey I Got The Day Off Day situation, at least when it wasn't a Fuck You, I Don't Get The Day Off Day situation instead."

You've obviously never lived in an Italian-American neighborhood.
posted by octothorpe at 7:15 AM on June 30, 2010 [3 favorites]

That analogy means nothing to me now that the SATs go up to 2400 and I don't understand them anymore.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:16 AM on June 30, 2010

How does New York actively celebrate Columbus Day? Is there a parade or something?

Why, yes. Yes there is.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:30 AM on June 30, 2010

I didn't know people actually like actively celebrated Columbus Day.

The Italians in South Philly celebrate it for reals. You got any Italians in Portland?
posted by desuetude at 7:31 AM on June 30, 2010 [2 favorites]

HOW is it that the center of those things is ALWAYS hot? It defies the laws of thermodynamics.

Because the outside traps the heat inside? Sort of how ovens and furnaces work?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:31 AM on June 30, 2010

Sort of how ovens and furnaces work?

Perhaps we should make ovens and furnaces out of McDonald's pie crusts because damn that thing stays hot out of the oven longer than any oven that's been turned off after baking.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 7:39 AM on June 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

Anyone have a good salsa recipe that includes habaneros and tomatillos? I'm going to have way too many of both of those in a few weeks.
posted by schyler523 at 7:40 AM on June 30, 2010

I honestly haven't had a McDonald's apple pie since I worked there many, many years ago, but I can attest that putting half an apple pie between the two patties of a Double Quarter Pounder will keep you fed for the duration of a typical shift there.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:43 AM on June 30, 2010 [2 favorites]

You got any Italians in Portland?

There's an Olive Garden at the Jantzen Beach Mall, I think.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:53 AM on June 30, 2010 [4 favorites]

Well, you have annoyed me with your smugness. Jesus, how about answering the question?
posted by atchafalaya at 7:57 AM on June 30, 2010

There's an Olive Garden at the Jantzen Beach Mall, I think.

Where was it that I had read about a small town somewhere in America where the town voted the Best Italian Restaurant to be Olive Garden, the Best Coffeeshop to be Starbucks, etc.?
posted by shakespeherian at 8:02 AM on June 30, 2010

When my brother lived there, a decade or so ago, for years running, the people of the city of Richmond, VA, voted Red Lobster as the best seafood restaurant. I don't know if their outlook has improved since.
posted by crunchland at 8:05 AM on June 30, 2010

You got any Italians in Portland?

The Festa Italiana Portland runs August 26-28, at the Pioneer Courthouse Square, though 85% of the attendees are just WASPy hipsters and yuppies in rented costumes.

"FESTA ITALIANA PORTLAND: WE'LL SEE YOU AT The 'IT'S A-ME!' PAVILION!!!"
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:07 AM on June 30, 2010

Found it.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:10 AM on June 30, 2010

I really do just fucking love stuffing though. Not the real kind, the fake in-a-can kind. Christmas we always had Southwestern Mexican food, but Thanksgiving was always pure traditional WASP-y American. The one day of the year we had gravy.

In the last few years I have celebrated Thanksgiving annually in a Native community. It is one of the central holidays of the year; this particular tribal culture places a very high value on reciprocity and the exchange of food, and Thanksgiving is one of three dates during the year when the community's subsistence hunting harvest is shared out collectively to every single member of the tribe, no matter who had a better hunting season. They have conjoined their traditional celebration of reciprocity with the post-contact mythology enshrined in the Thanksgiving holiday, which celebrates reciprocity between cultures, between humans and nature, and between humans and the spirit world.

After a day spent distributing whale and caribou and birds and seals -- tons of it, backbreaking work for the volunteers, of which I am lately always one, which is seen as a form of thankful giving in its own right (as is all labor in this tribe's traditional economy) -- everyone sits down to giant extended family meals of turkey, cranberry sauce, stuffing, etc. (The rest of the year it's almost all subsistence hunted meat, except on Easter when it's ham.) Mind you, a 30 lb turkey costs about $100 in this Arctic community, but it's still the centerpiece.

Being a white guest at this Native celebration of a moment in Anglo/Native relations that was full of promise for something other than the genocidal disaster that ensued for the next 360 years or so (leaving aside the accuracy of the Thanksgiving myth as history) is always humbling to me, but it has changed the way I view the holiday. To me, it is the holiday that celebrates the Native American contribution to "America."
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:16 AM on June 30, 2010 [12 favorites]

> I do not have permission to enter the Chile Pepper Institute. :-(

Great, now I get to figure out why that's doing that. It's weird. You hit the link, doesn't load. You manually enter that same link and it does. You can even, "Open link in new window," and it works. I don't get it.
posted by cjorgensen at 8:45 AM on June 30, 2010

shakespeherian: Yep. This year's survey is already underway... the paper added dozens of new categories; I'm eagerly waiting to see if this year's "Best Retailer Whose Name Starts With Wal" will be Walmart or Walgreen's.

cjorgensen: they must be blocking access based on the page referrer -- maybe we overloaded them with traffic at some point?
posted by ook at 8:55 AM on June 30, 2010

nevercalm: Seriously tho, I'm into serious heat and I love to cook, so I was looking to play around with rubs and sauces and whatnot and see what sort of non-meaty goodness I can come up with.

You can't really make actual barbecue with vegetarian ingredients, but you can do some fine grilling. Portabella mushrooms, grilled and then glazed with barbecue sauce, make a very tasty sandwich. I don't know that a rub would work, 'cause there's not enough moisture, but you could marinate them before hand -- just make your rub into a paste by adding some oil, coat the mushrooms, and let them sit for an hour or so.

Also, grilled red cabbage makes an awesome cole slaw. Will post a not-quite-a-recipe recipe if requested.

Schyler523: Anyone have a good salsa recipe that includes habaneros and tomatillos? I'm going to have way too many of both of those in a few weeks.

Why yes. I generally make mine with serranos, but any chili would work. Jalapenos, or even anaheims/poblanos, would work for people who don't care for the heat.

Roasted Tomatillo Salsa

Prepare your tomatilloes by removing the husks and rinsing them well in cold water. (The sticky coating on their skins gets kind of soapy. Do not be alarmed.)

Place whole tomatilloes and whole chilis into a roasting pan, along with an onion that's been cut into quarters. In a 450-degree oven, or in your broiler, roast the vegetables. Turn them occasionally. Remove the ingredients as they get blistered and charred on all sides. The peppers will be done first.

Place all ingredients into a blender, along with a pinch of salt. That's it -- no liquid.

Blend. Cool. Serve. Yum.
posted by mudpuppie at 9:07 AM on June 30, 2010 [2 favorites]

Again, this is part of privilege

Privilege, the magic wand of internet arguments. The fact that you don't agree with my point... only proves my point!
posted by spaltavian at 9:09 AM on June 30, 2010

Okay, sorry, I'm back to apologize to you all for surrendering to the snark. It's just that sometimes the relentless beanplating and axe-grinding around here gets to me.

Out of 100,000 people on this site, I think it's important to realize (or is it realise?) that somebody somewhere is going to say something that will piss you off every day.

Therefore, I have reset my outrage thermostat to somewhat higher levels than before. Now I save it for things that cause death, bodily injury and grievous financial harm or environmental damage. Of course, living in Louisiana has made that last point difficult.

Still, when it's not my post, I can just shake my head and move on.

I try to approach this site like I hope I do the rest of life; I contribute what answers and commentary I can, and try to leave my axes at the door.
posted by atchafalaya at 9:13 AM on June 30, 2010 [2 favorites]

I had a fried bologna on rye with cheddar and mustard, some steakfires on the side and a lime rickey the other day. It was really good.
posted by jonmc at 9:14 AM on June 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

There is an entire Sopranos episode about Columbus Day and Italian-Americans celebrating it.
posted by proj at 9:21 AM on June 30, 2010

Again, this is part of privilege

Perhaps I can redeem myself a tiny bit (or irritate more people, could go either way!) by listing this list that I made in my head on my drive to work this morning. Yes. I made a list. About the knapsack of American privilege. I CAN'T HELP IT I WENT TO HIPPIE COLLEGE IT NEVER STOPS.

Please note that these examples are limited to the Western World as I have no idea whether or not they hold true in other places. That is in and of itself, I realize, an example of privilege in that I don't know what people in India or Zimbabwe or East Timor think about anything.

American Privilege! I can...
- Expect that most people I meet will know about my nation's history. Perhaps in more detail than I do.
- Expect that big events in my country will be covered by international media.
- Expect to be informed by said international media about said large events in my country when I am traveling and discuss said events with non-American citizens who are about as informed as I am, if not, again, more so.
- Watch movies from my own country abroad.
- Hear music from my country wherever I travel.
- Say where I'm from and never have anyone ask where THAT is or mumble that they've never heard of it.
- Meet others from my country when traveling, on a pretty regular basis.
- This is true of all English speaking countries: I can expect that announcements on airplanes will be made in my language in addition to whatever the native language is of the operator of the airline. See also: signs in airports. Tourist guides. Etc.

Shorter list of American DIS-Privilege, which is what you non-Americans probably don't understand. This is equally pervasive. As an American I can...
- Expect that the most common perception of my countrymen is that of someone who is of average intelligence, poorly informed, monolingual, pro-Israel, and more interested in baseball than what goes on in the world outside my country - if I even REALIZE that there's a world outside my country. (This is, at least, the image of Americans that I've been presented with when I travel.)
- Be treated to a tirade of the litany of ills that my nation has done by perfect strangers who only know my nationality and nothing else about me. anytime anything happens ever whether or not it interests or concerns me.
- Expect people in other Western countries to be condescending about my nation's healthcare, education, Social Security, and other social welfare programs because they do it better.
- Expect my own countrymen to not necessarily know or care that they have the above *privileges* and act in ways that enforce the bad image that we often project.

Those who see the first group of phenomena happening on MetaFilter might not realize that Americans are indeed defensive because the latter issues are ALSO happening. I'm all for unpacking the knapsack, but this isn't equivalent to male privilege or white privilege in that there really and truly IS a flip side to the coin. I'm not saying we're maligned - not at all. We are one of the only "Superpowers" left and we do absolutely enjoy an amount of privilege. My point is that whenever we encounter non-Americans we are also often treated like a bunch of maroons who can't even understand what maroons we are. (Kind of like what Marisa Stole the Precious Thing was talking about when people meet a "Real Live American.")
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:26 AM on June 30, 2010 [3 favorites]

- Expect that the most common perception of my countrymen is that of someone who is of average intelligence, poorly informed, monolingual, pro-Israel, and more interested in baseball than what goes on in the world outside my country - if I even REALIZE that there's a world outside my country. (This is, at least, the image of Americans that I've been presented with when I travel.)

You forgot obese and/or poorly dressed. (But I've never been out of North America, so what do I know?)
posted by jgirl at 9:31 AM on June 30, 2010

You forgot obese and/or poorly dressed. (But I've never been out of North America, so what do I know?)

Germans have it worse than us on poorly dressed. If they show up with sandals without socks, it's a good day for them.

I've lived in Germany, I'm ethnically 1/4 German. Don't stone me plz.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:33 AM on June 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

People always expect me to drink too much and wear a top hat, and I never disappoint!
posted by Artw at 9:34 AM on June 30, 2010 [3 favorites]

Great, now I get to figure out why that's doing that. It's weird. You hit the link, doesn't load. You manually enter that same link and it does. You can even, "Open link in new window," and it works. I don't get it.

I'm willing to accept that my application to study at the Chile Pepper Institute was denied. The Chile Pepper Institute received many excellent applications but had only a few spaces available for new students. However, they appreciate my interest in their spicy-foods program, and hope the best for my future chile-related endeavors.
posted by meese at 9:50 AM on June 30, 2010

People always expect me to disappoint, which leads to a rather cunning restatement of Epimenides' paradox.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:04 AM on June 30, 2010 [5 favorites]

To be fair, most Americans probably are of average intelligence.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:41 AM on June 30, 2010

Yeah, but exactly half of them are below even that!
posted by atchafalaya at 10:49 AM on June 30, 2010

aargh you got me.
posted by atchafalaya at 10:50 AM on June 30, 2010

Christopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar!
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:04 AM on June 30, 2010

"Not just my opinion, I've recieved MeMail from multiple users saying 'I don't know what her problem is.'"

I'm stealing this for all future silly internet arguments I get into.
posted by HopperFan at 11:12 AM on June 30, 2010 [2 favorites]

Expect that the most common perception of my countrymen is that of someone who is of average intelligence, poorly informed, monolingual, pro-Israel, and more interested in baseball than what goes on in the world outside my country - if I even REALIZE that there's a world outside my country. (This is, at least, the image of Americans that I've been presented with when I travel.)

I hate that people think like that because surely the upside of the massive fucking weight on English-language internet discourse the giant pile of Americans on the web represents is that everyone has spoken to intelligent, well-informed, and intellectually curious Americans. I know I groan when the influence of clueless Americans makes itself known, but many of the writers I respect the most are from the USA.

Everyone makes clueless comments sometimes, and many people forget, at some time or other, that there may be actual black/Italian/Indian/gay/trans/American people lurking on the site who may get pissed off at said cluelessness. The trick is not to act like a dick when someone says, "Hey, you just stepped on my toe." Mefi is better at that than basically anywhere on the web that isn't set up as a "safe space".
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 11:29 AM on June 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

turgid dahlia: "and what has America ever given me? Foxconn suicides and 60 years of "Oh but we won World War II" when actually it was the Russians"

There was this whole Pacific theater you might have heard of (being from Australia and all) and the Russians did jack shit in that.
posted by Bonzai at 11:38 AM on June 30, 2010 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I watched the Spielberg show about how that was fought entirely by Americans.

FWIW There actually was some conflict between Russia and Japan at the beginning and end of WWII.
posted by Artw at 12:33 PM on June 30, 2010

There was this whole Pacific theater you might have heard of (being from Australia and all) and the Russians did jack shit in that.
That was the one where the Chinese tied up all the Japanese forces, wasn't it? :p
posted by Abiezer at 1:05 PM on June 30, 2010

Germans have it worse than us on poorly dressed.

Their most heinous fashion crime is their inability to let acid-washed denim die the horrible death it deserves.
posted by elizardbits at 1:23 PM on June 30, 2010

Ah yes, the kind of of clothing that can be defended by saying "It's practical!". See also certain kinds of nerds.

As for acid-washed denim, I shall be exploring inland portions of America at the weekend and fully expect to encounter it along with Def Leppard, big hair and three wold moon T-Shirts.
posted by Artw at 1:40 PM on June 30, 2010

German tourists are drawn by Rob Liefeld.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:40 PM on June 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

stoneweaver: "I can sort of think of funny jokes about people that don't exist anymore. I mean, it was kinda dumb for the Rapanui to completely deforest Easter Island."

So, 1) the Rapanui do do still exist and I imagine they'd find it a bit surprising to learn otherwise, and 2) the deforestation of Easter Island was a combination of human impacts, rat impacts, and a delicate ecosystem that was completely unable to rebound or grow back after the effects of the first two (humans cut down trees, the rats were eating palm endocarps like it was going out of style, and the amount of nitrogen in the old old old soil was not sufficient to have any sort of regrowth rebound on any worthwhile scale).

No worries, though. But, the lesson is: never read anything Jared Diamond has to say about Polynesia, if you can avoid it.
posted by barnacles at 2:05 PM on June 30, 2010 [2 favorites]

Only the stuff about Polynesia?
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:22 PM on June 30, 2010

Stupid, yet honest question -- what's wrong with Jarend Diamond? I ask because I've got Guns, Germs and Steel on audio book, and although I'm only a chapter or two in (I have a short commute), I haven't stumbled across any obvious stupidity, yet.
posted by Devils Rancher at 3:03 PM on June 30, 2010

The problem with the Ask question linked by the OP isn't the 'we' per se - it's the implicit assumption that of course we know the asker is based in the US, because of course we are too... Prefacing the question with "As an American, I wonder..." would remove the slight (and serve to disambiguate the 'we' usage, since that seems to bother some). It's not a hard thing to do, being mindful that the internet is international.
posted by Dysk at 3:16 PM on June 30, 2010

It's not a hard thing to do, being mindful that the internet is international.

Agreed. Our basic approach is pretty much like how we deal with NSFW stuff. We ask people to do it as a courtesy. We'll append it sometimes if we see it or if the OP asks us to. And we ask for people's understanding that sometimes it's just not going to happen.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:24 PM on June 30, 2010

But we can still make jokes about homo sapiens eating all the neandertals, right?
posted by elizardbits at 3:32 PM on June 30, 2010

Turns out a fair number of people still have have neanderthal DNA.
posted by Artw at 3:40 PM on June 30, 2010

But we can still make jokes about homo sapiens eating all the neandertals, right?

You insensitive clod!

I totally left a full serving in the tupperware.
posted by Devils Rancher at 3:46 PM on June 30, 2010

I tried to figure out how a joke about a mass die off of humans, whether through genocide or stupidity, could be funny and totally failed.

Look, I apologized. I don't know what it was about my apology that didn't read as sincere - but apparently, it didn't parse as intended.

What I meant: I was trying to be funny. In the way that you joke around with your friends and say things in questionable taste. I failed. It was a hastily made and obviously poorly thought out comment and I in no way meant it as a serious statement about genocide in general or the genocide of the Native Americans specifically.

I understand, completely, why it wasn't funny. Just like sexist jokes, even if made with good intent, aren't funny. It was a dumb thing to say and I'm sorry I said it. I would appreciate it if we could move on now as I'm continually trying to apologize, but I can't unsay it and this is starting to feel like the derail about my stupid comment is becoming a passive-aggressive attack against me. I am truly sorry and I do truly understand that it just wasn't funny. Can we let it go?
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:07 PM on June 30, 2010 [4 favorites]

Soylent Green is Neandelicious!
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:07 PM on June 30, 2010

People who go out of their way to be offended about things should be wiped out.
posted by Artw at 4:10 PM on June 30, 2010 [2 favorites]

Especially if they are delicious.
posted by elizardbits at 4:11 PM on June 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

Of course they are delicious, they are marinated in whine.
posted by Artw at 4:12 PM on June 30, 2010 [8 favorites]

"I didn't know people actually like actively celebrated Columbus Day."

In San Francisco there is a parade and then people go to Gino & Carlo's for drinks.
That describes most days in San Francisco though.
posted by vapidave at 4:12 PM on June 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

There is an entire Sopranos episode about Columbus Day and Italian-Americans celebrating it.

Yes, and it is one of the best episodes in a great series. Here's a clip from it. (Warning: very, very incorrect attitudes.)
posted by bearwife at 4:41 PM on June 30, 2010

I didn't know people actually like actively celebrated Columbus Day

Wikipedia describes the situation here quite well:

Australia Day is the official national day of Australia. Celebrated annually on 26 January, the day commemorates the arrival of the First Fleet at Sydney Cove in 1788, the hoisting of the British flag there, and the proclamation of British sovereignty over the eastern seaboard of Australia.

The day is seen as controversial for many Australians, particularly Indigenous Australians, who see commemorating the arrival of the First Fleet as celebrating the destruction of the native Aboriginal culture by British colonists.

Dating back to the 1938 Day of Mourning, there have been significant protests from and on behalf of the Indigenous Australian community, and the birth of the alternative name Invasion Day. Others have begun to use the name Survival Day to highlight that a people and culture expected to die out has survived.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:44 PM on June 30, 2010

we are also often treated like a bunch of maroons who can't even understand what maroons we are.
You're either left on an island or brownish-crimson.
posted by unliteral at 4:54 PM on June 30, 2010

It's a hard thing to do, and the fact that MeFites do it so often is something I really like about this community.

Not that hard. Don't give me TOO much credit.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:55 PM on June 30, 2010

we are also often treated like a bunch of maroons who can't even understand what maroons we are.
You're either left on an island or brownish-crimson.

Don't forget the possibility of BOTH. Being left on an island and being brownish-crimson are not mutually exclusive!
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:56 PM on June 30, 2010

Could people please stop talking about the actual topic of the thread? It's just way out of context down here.

MOAR RECIPES PLZ.

Suggestion: Tell me what I should cook for dinner tomorrow night. Constraints: I am lazy.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 5:01 PM on June 30, 2010

These look tasty.
posted by gman at 5:03 PM on June 30, 2010

"I didn't know people actually like actively celebrated Columbus Day."

Boston's Columbus Day Parade. Facebook page.

Christopher Columbus Park in Boston's North End (aka 'Little Italy').
posted by ericb at 5:06 PM on June 30, 2010

Maroons.
posted by box at 5:15 PM on June 30, 2010

Maroon aka moron or maron.
posted by ericb at 5:21 PM on June 30, 2010

These look tasty.

Yeah, but some of them take a whole month! Do you have a time machine to go with this?
posted by grapefruitmoon at 5:24 PM on June 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

Australia Day is the official national day of Australia. Celebrated annually on 26 January, the day commemorates the arrival of the First Fleet at Sydney Cove in 1788, the hoisting of the British flag there, and the proclamation of British sovereignty over the eastern seaboard of Australia

And as such is really only the official foundation day of New South Wales, the colony and later State. The rest of the country can find their own celebration of an amphibious combined-arms landing.

More seriously, all of the Survival Day concerts I've ever been to have been awesome. In fact years back they had Ozomatli playing---all fifty or so of them on stage---and they did a whole thing in banter about comparing 26 January to Columbus Day, and Latino pride in America.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 5:29 PM on June 30, 2010

There's a great satirical mockumentary (if anybody can find it; I never have much luck) called Babakuaria, which reverses the roles of Aboriginals v Colonisers.

It opens with some Aboriginals showing up in canoes on a foreshore park, where groups of whiteys are gathered:

"You over there - what do you call this place?"

"It's a BBQ area, mate!"

"OK, we shall name this new land...Babakuaria!"

To be honest, I prefer that name. So much better & more descriptive than plain old "southern [land]"
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:03 PM on June 30, 2010 [3 favorites]

grapefruitmoon, I like you and refrained from any kind of pile-on whatsoever about the insensitive comment you made, but NOW you are starting to annoy me.

Look how many comments you have posted just within the last hour--are you seriously suggesting that others are responsible for this whole thing not dying a natural death? Because at this point I'd say the person most responsible for keeping it going is you.

Please stop making this into the grapefruitmoon thread already.

Especially since the real tragedy in this thread is that McDonald's actually stopped frying their apple pies years ago. But some locations have rebelled against the baked apple pies they replaced the fried ones with.
posted by misha at 6:32 PM on June 30, 2010

Babakiueria, Ubu. And on youtube. And you're right, it's hilarious.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:48 PM on June 30, 2010 [2 favorites]

Especially since the real tragedy in this thread is that McDonald's actually stopped frying their apple pies years ago. But some locations have rebelled against the baked apple pies they replaced the fried ones with.

They switched to baked in 1992? It really has been a long time since I've eaten one. You could probably request they drop it in the frier for you though. I used to do ask the Hardee's people to do that to their hot dogs for me all the time.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:55 PM on June 30, 2010

And posted, because it's too good to languish at the end of a monster thread like this one.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:01 PM on June 30, 2010 [1 favorite]

Look how many comments you have posted just within the last hour--are you seriously suggesting that others are responsible for this whole thing not dying a natural death? Because at this point I'd say the person most responsible for keeping it going is you.

I just happened to be online, that's all. How many of those comments were about the subject I was asking to drop? One. Addressing how it was time to drop it.

How many comments have I made since that hour? None, I went to bed.

If your complaint is that I'm harping on the same subject, there's really no substance to that. If you're just upset about the number of comments - which may have been over the top, it's true, but of which 90% were just pure NONSENSE... I'll try to post fewer one-liners in the future. Again, I just happened to be online for that one brief window of time and didn't even realize I was making "too many" comments. I'll try to be more aware.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:29 AM on July 1, 2010

Aw, hell. 500!
posted by cgc373 at 6:41 AM on July 1, 2010

The only thing I have to contribute to this thread right now is the weird coincidence that I suggested this VERY IDEA to my son yesterday

Interesting, Mr. Westphall, but you should really tell him to stop playing with that snowglobe and wash his hands up for dinner.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:57 AM on July 1, 2010

As an Indian with international aspirations, it's cool. No worries, sub chalega.

My original comment was "Like your little brother who always wants to googly the silly mid leg"

I know this is a long thread, but it's late here and I must point this out: you can't googly the silly mid leg for three reasons.

First, as should be obvious from this graphic, you can have a mid-leg, or silly-mid-on/off; the moment you span over to square- and fine-leg, it stops being a silly, and starts being a short-leg or a leg-slip.

Second, while a googly by definition is leg-off-leg, you'd have to spin _real hard_ to make the ball go from off to mid-on or even mid-wicket. Besides, it may very well be called a wide if you pitch it far enough to be unplayable by the batsmen.

The third is if a fielder somehow bowls a googly to either mid-leg or silly-mid-on/off, but that would unnecessarily increase the over-rate, opening up the possibility of the bowling team getting fined.

_Sorry.
posted by the cydonian at 8:32 AM on July 1, 2010 [6 favorites]

UbuRoivas: "Only the stuff about Polynesia?"

Devils Rancher: "Stupid, yet honest question -- what's wrong with Jarend Diamond? I ask because I've got Guns, Germs and Steel on audio book, and although I'm only a chapter or two in (I have a short commute), I haven't stumbled across any obvious stupidity, yet."

UbuRoivas, I can only speak to the stuff he's done in Polynesia, specifically in Collapse, I don't have the background to know about the rest.

Devils Rancher, some of the issues with Diamond have been that he's really peddling a very environmentally deterministic viewpoint and seems to ignore data that go against that viewpoint. At least, with his work on Easter Island in Collapse, he did a very selective reading of the archaeological work out there, and whether he ignored certain (well-known and published) facts willfully or unintentionally, either way speaks to some shoddy scholarship.

He's got a great writing voice, though, I'll give him that.
posted by barnacles at 9:15 AM on July 1, 2010

Thanks -- I'll kep that in mind. I try to approach things with skepticism as it is, but I was working in a vacuum on that one.
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:31 AM on July 1, 2010

Pottsville Maroons

Chicago Maroons
posted by TedW at 9:51 AM on July 1, 2010

Oh, Christ.

Do you all never learn?
posted by GuyZero at 2:55 PM on July 1, 2010

Yes, it's a pain in the ass. However while I think the site in general is aware that there are many people from other countries that comprise the people of MetaFilter, some individual people are not quite as mannered. Most people get it, some people do not. We're sort of at an impasse.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:05 PM on July 1, 2010

I may have come off as more serious than I actually am about the matter - for myself alone it's annoying, but then again, so is everyone else who is driving a car when I am driving a car which is to say that I've managed to cope with it for the most part other than complaining a little bit. On the off chance you care I don't expect anything to be done about it and I know people will keep doing it. This is just me moaning more than actually expecting any sort of actual resolution.

Happy holiday that celebrates the founding of your nation, everyone.
posted by GuyZero at 3:08 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]

Merwin is your
poet is my poet is our
poet for Merwin is laureate
and viva sweet laureate
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:51 PM on July 1, 2010

Yeah GuyZero, this stuff doesn't get me angry at all, it's just a bit of thoughtlessness, which is ultimately a form of rudeness, that I'd like corrected, as slowly as it may take.
posted by wilful at 5:22 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]

> this stuff doesn't get me angry at all, it's just a bit of thoughtlessness, which is ultimately a form of rudeness, that I'd like corrected, as slowly as it may take.

That's an admirable attitude, and if the boyzone situation is anything to go by, there's definitely hope, though it may take a few years to get enough people aware enough to think before they hit Post. (I have to say, that "your poet laureate" line gave me a laugh!)
posted by languagehat at 5:47 PM on July 1, 2010 [1 favorite]

(I have to say, that "your poet laureate" line gave me a laugh!)

I did too, I think because I heard it in Ryan Seacrest's voice: "Ladies and gentlemen! Your NEW American Idol Poet Laureate is...[LONG DRAMATIC PAUSE] [STILL PAUSING] [Jesus, Seacrest, just spit it out already] DOUBLE-U! ESS! MERWIN!"
posted by scody at 6:08 PM on July 1, 2010

So late but with the Australian connection and all: The New Seekers - I'd Like ToTeach The World To Sing.

Seriously, it took ages to read all most some of this.
posted by bdave at 1:04 AM on July 2, 2010

What really baffles me about this entire thread is that I thought the word denizen meant someone who lives in a place but wasn't born there...

My dictionary isn't helping. It defines denizen as "a naturalized citizen".

I've got to get a new dictionary. And maybe stop reading MeFi at a quarter to four a.m.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:44 PM on July 3, 2010