Seeking global perspectives from the community November 13, 2024 4:10 PM Subscribe
Hi all, this is a message from MetaFilter’s BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color) board.
In the interest of highlighting and growing the global perspective here on our little corner of the web, we want to encourage BIPOC members to post a bit more to the site.
So we’re going to use this second week of November to encourage members who don’t consider themselves Western world natives (Diasporic BIPOC welcome here) to make a post or two about their culture.
To that end, we have a few suggestions/themes, but no one has to feel bound to use them, they’re merely suggestions:
How does your culture use rice cookers?
What is one thing about your culture that people have misconceptions about or have stigmas within Western cultural perceptions?
How does your country or culture view/treat cats (past and present)?
What’s a particular food item that is popular in your culture and what are some of the popular variants?
The posts don’t have to be long or filled with links, but it’s ok if they are! Single link posts are absolutely fine on MetaFilter and have a long history on the site.
We’re doing this as a way to showcase the width and breadth of MetaFilter’s global community. No other community is forbidden or discouraged from posting during this event, we merely ask other communities to highlight or share their culture with others on MetaFilter.
Keep in mind that MetaFilter is more than front page posts. If there’s a particular Project you’ve been working on, music you’ve created, or media you like, then you can share all these things on the Projects, Music, or FanFare pages!
Our only request is that you tag these posts with ‘NovemBIPOC’ or let the mods know and we’ll add the tags.
To that end, we have a few suggestions/themes, but no one has to feel bound to use them, they’re merely suggestions:
How does your culture use rice cookers?
What is one thing about your culture that people have misconceptions about or have stigmas within Western cultural perceptions?
How does your country or culture view/treat cats (past and present)?
What’s a particular food item that is popular in your culture and what are some of the popular variants?
The posts don’t have to be long or filled with links, but it’s ok if they are! Single link posts are absolutely fine on MetaFilter and have a long history on the site.
We’re doing this as a way to showcase the width and breadth of MetaFilter’s global community. No other community is forbidden or discouraged from posting during this event, we merely ask other communities to highlight or share their culture with others on MetaFilter.
Keep in mind that MetaFilter is more than front page posts. If there’s a particular Project you’ve been working on, music you’ve created, or media you like, then you can share all these things on the Projects, Music, or FanFare pages!
Our only request is that you tag these posts with ‘NovemBIPOC’ or let the mods know and we’ll add the tags.
Hey, so, I saw the comment that was deleted (unless there was more than one). The comment I saw found the OP post itself offensive (tbh, the post raised my eyebrows too, for similar reasons). The comment was by someone identifying as BIPOC themselves.
I think a more community-oriented response would be to thoughtfully address the issue that was raised, rather than accusing the person who raised it of insensitivity and immediately shutting down any critique.
posted by trig at 11:15 AM on November 14 [35 favorites]
I think a more community-oriented response would be to thoughtfully address the issue that was raised, rather than accusing the person who raised it of insensitivity and immediately shutting down any critique.
posted by trig at 11:15 AM on November 14 [35 favorites]
A friendly suggestion: could the tag be named something else, along the lines of "NovemBIPOC" or similar (I assume that if there's interest, this will continue beyond the second week of November, which is already half-over.) BIPOC is used as a tag pretty frequently, and this preserves that use and avoids weird edge cases like someone who does not consider themselves BIPOC but are posting a link with subject matter that could be reasonably tagged that way.
Another thing I'm not clear on (as someone who is BIPOC who was considering make a post about a silly web game today) is whether this can go on any post by a BIPOC Mefite or if it's meant to be more narrowly interpreted, as posts by BIPOC about "culture"? I think the questions and the use of "BIPOC" as a tag kind of lend to that confusion. Bickering about this kind of thing is a time-honored mefi tradition, so I understand not wanting to come down too hard on one side or another, but I would appreciate a little more clarity.
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 11:17 AM on November 14 [5 favorites]
Another thing I'm not clear on (as someone who is BIPOC who was considering make a post about a silly web game today) is whether this can go on any post by a BIPOC Mefite or if it's meant to be more narrowly interpreted, as posts by BIPOC about "culture"? I think the questions and the use of "BIPOC" as a tag kind of lend to that confusion. Bickering about this kind of thing is a time-honored mefi tradition, so I understand not wanting to come down too hard on one side or another, but I would appreciate a little more clarity.
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 11:17 AM on November 14 [5 favorites]
At the very least, and extending the wording of this the greatest possible charity, this should have been posted in a way that makes it much more clear that it's not the mods or Metafilter as an institution speaking.
I'm not even sure I'm correct in that assumption - can a mod confirm that all they've done is post something from written by the BIPOC board under a staff username?
posted by sagc at 11:17 AM on November 14 [5 favorites]
I'm not even sure I'm correct in that assumption - can a mod confirm that all they've done is post something from written by the BIPOC board under a staff username?
posted by sagc at 11:17 AM on November 14 [5 favorites]
Yes, please. I, too, was a bit surprised by some of the message, but I thought "this is the BIPOC board speaking, and this could result in some interesting posts, so favorite away, buckaroo."
posted by cupcakeninja at 11:24 AM on November 14 [1 favorite]
posted by cupcakeninja at 11:24 AM on November 14 [1 favorite]
Thank you for bringing that up, trig, there were several comments (happening at the same time as the note was posted). I've update the mod note to reflect that and reached out to the member in question privately.
Now, for clarification the post was made by Brandon as a member of the BIPOC Board and as part of a larger initiative the Board is working on. Also: tags updated as requested.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:37 AM on November 14 [1 favorite]
Now, for clarification the post was made by Brandon as a member of the BIPOC Board and as part of a larger initiative the Board is working on. Also: tags updated as requested.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:37 AM on November 14 [1 favorite]
For anyone who missed the original comment, at least the one that I saw: It was a short, frustrated comment that said that questions like "How does your culture use rice cookers?" were themselves stereotypical and reductive (or another similar word, I don't remember).
Deleting that comment instead of showing some understanding of, awareness of, and empathy for the legitimate reasons it was made - and then going even further and accusing the poster of committing some transgression against the BIPOC board - is not okay. This is not an okay direction for the site to be going in.
The general animosity towards site users whose reactions are not easy or complimentary is not okay. The use of site guidelines as a (flagrantly hypocritical) blunt weapon is not okay. A mod staff that knows only how to shut down discussion, and does not know how to shape it instead, is not okay. Frankly, it's not Metafilter.
As much as I've complained about the current management's inability to effectively fundraise, communicate, or complete almost any concrete tasks on a remotely timely basis - this is worse.
On preview: This is not something to only "reach out privately" about.
posted by trig at 11:42 AM on November 14 [69 favorites]
Deleting that comment instead of showing some understanding of, awareness of, and empathy for the legitimate reasons it was made - and then going even further and accusing the poster of committing some transgression against the BIPOC board - is not okay. This is not an okay direction for the site to be going in.
The general animosity towards site users whose reactions are not easy or complimentary is not okay. The use of site guidelines as a (flagrantly hypocritical) blunt weapon is not okay. A mod staff that knows only how to shut down discussion, and does not know how to shape it instead, is not okay. Frankly, it's not Metafilter.
As much as I've complained about the current management's inability to effectively fundraise, communicate, or complete almost any concrete tasks on a remotely timely basis - this is worse.
On preview: This is not something to only "reach out privately" about.
posted by trig at 11:42 AM on November 14 [69 favorites]
I understand that Brandon was probably on the BIPOC board before he became a mod, but is it really faithful to the intent of that board's purpose for a mod to be its main interface with the larger community?
posted by dusty potato at 11:52 AM on November 14 [9 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 11:52 AM on November 14 [9 favorites]
I agree--I'm sure Brandon does good work on the board and I don't think he needs to leave it, but it would be nice to get a BIPOC board update that was not through him or loup.
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 11:54 AM on November 14 [6 favorites]
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 11:54 AM on November 14 [6 favorites]
The post raised my eyebrows, too. Here is why:
1. Asking people to provide cultural education for the benefit of others not in their culture, free, is such a well-known poor practice that is in fact the reason that members of the BIPOC Biard get a stipend. That was a community recommendation when the board was launched.
2. I’m confused about how “BIPOC” as used here seems to equal “global.” Those are overlapping but distinct identities. The goal is unclear.
posted by Miko at 11:57 AM on November 14 [37 favorites]
1. Asking people to provide cultural education for the benefit of others not in their culture, free, is such a well-known poor practice that is in fact the reason that members of the BIPOC Biard get a stipend. That was a community recommendation when the board was launched.
2. I’m confused about how “BIPOC” as used here seems to equal “global.” Those are overlapping but distinct identities. The goal is unclear.
posted by Miko at 11:57 AM on November 14 [37 favorites]
This is confusing. BIPOC and “global” aren’t synonyms. BIPOC and non-Western aren’t synonyms. Is this intended for culturally underrepresented members to post only about their cultures?
The rice cookers, cats, and food combo is… all I can say is that this is the first time phunniemee has made me laugh so at least there’s that.
posted by betweenthebars at 12:01 PM on November 14 [13 favorites]
The rice cookers, cats, and food combo is… all I can say is that this is the first time phunniemee has made me laugh so at least there’s that.
posted by betweenthebars at 12:01 PM on November 14 [13 favorites]
is it really faithful to the intent of that board's purpose for a mod to be its main interface with the larger community?
Good question. In this specific case the proposal was discussed and approved by the board in our last meeting and Brandon (as part of the Board) decided to take the lead and make it happen.
Now, regarding comments deleted. they were deleted based on the guidelines and content policy alone, saying things like "WTF is this shit?" to refer to an initiative from the Board and "WHAT ABOUT THAT, MOTHERFUCKERS????!?!?!?!?" is definitely not okay on the site. The member in question has been contacted and invited to provide feedback to the board either here or directly to them in a way that complies with the content policy and guidelines instead of resourcing to name calling. I'll stop addressing questions/comments regarding these deletions as that is not the main purpose of this thread.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:06 PM on November 14
Good question. In this specific case the proposal was discussed and approved by the board in our last meeting and Brandon (as part of the Board) decided to take the lead and make it happen.
Now, regarding comments deleted. they were deleted based on the guidelines and content policy alone, saying things like "WTF is this shit?" to refer to an initiative from the Board and "WHAT ABOUT THAT, MOTHERFUCKERS????!?!?!?!?" is definitely not okay on the site. The member in question has been contacted and invited to provide feedback to the board either here or directly to them in a way that complies with the content policy and guidelines instead of resourcing to name calling. I'll stop addressing questions/comments regarding these deletions as that is not the main purpose of this thread.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:06 PM on November 14
I did not see the second comment you referenced. I did see one that ended in "WTF is this shit?"
If Metafilter is led by people who think that "WTF is this shit?" is something no one should be allowed to say about site initiatives, then that is absolutely a serious, fundamental, and central issue.
posted by trig at 12:10 PM on November 14 [46 favorites]
If Metafilter is led by people who think that "WTF is this shit?" is something no one should be allowed to say about site initiatives, then that is absolutely a serious, fundamental, and central issue.
posted by trig at 12:10 PM on November 14 [46 favorites]
Now, regarding comments deleted. they were deleted based on the guidelines and content policy alone, saying things like "WTF is this shit?" to refer to an initiative from the Board and "WHAT ABOUT THAT, MOTHERFUCKERS????!?!?!?!?" is definitely not okay on the site.
This is fundamentally untrue. The swears came after completely reasonable questions had been asked and deleted.
You do know people can see the posts here, right? I have eyes?
posted by phunniemee at 12:10 PM on November 14 [51 favorites]
This is fundamentally untrue. The swears came after completely reasonable questions had been asked and deleted.
You do know people can see the posts here, right? I have eyes?
posted by phunniemee at 12:10 PM on November 14 [51 favorites]
saying things like "WTF is this shit?" to refer to an initiative from the Board and "WHAT ABOUT THAT, MOTHERFUCKERS????!?!?!?!?" is definitely not okay on the site.
Calling that "insensitive statements" and "name-calling against the Board" is a very loaded characterization, as a few people have already pointed out.
I'll stop addressing questions/comments regarding these deletions as that is not the main purpose of this thread.
I mean, it might not have started that way, but it seems there's a need for a conversation about what kind of reactions to potential microaggressions are deemed "acceptable", especially given the mod/user dynamic.
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 12:10 PM on November 14 [19 favorites]
Calling that "insensitive statements" and "name-calling against the Board" is a very loaded characterization, as a few people have already pointed out.
I'll stop addressing questions/comments regarding these deletions as that is not the main purpose of this thread.
I mean, it might not have started that way, but it seems there's a need for a conversation about what kind of reactions to potential microaggressions are deemed "acceptable", especially given the mod/user dynamic.
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 12:10 PM on November 14 [19 favorites]
And again: if Metafilter is led by people who think that shutting down an expression of offense and frustration because they don't like the way it was worded is the right thing to do, without responding to the actual offense and frustration behind the comment - then I think Metafilter is not being moderated by people who understand moderation anymore.
posted by trig at 12:13 PM on November 14 [58 favorites]
posted by trig at 12:13 PM on November 14 [58 favorites]
I've update the mod note to reflect that and reached out to the member in question privately.
loup, from a screenshot I saw it seems that "reached out to the member in question" in this case meant "gave a 24-hour timeout" to that member.
Is that the case?
If so - apart from the question of whether that is at all an appropriate step to take - I find the obfuscation offensive and really disrespectful. If your communication with someone consists of giving them a timeout, please say that directly rather than in a way that misleadingly makes it seem as though an actual positive, generous invitation to dialogue occurred.
posted by trig at 12:29 PM on November 14 [29 favorites]
loup, from a screenshot I saw it seems that "reached out to the member in question" in this case meant "gave a 24-hour timeout" to that member.
Is that the case?
If so - apart from the question of whether that is at all an appropriate step to take - I find the obfuscation offensive and really disrespectful. If your communication with someone consists of giving them a timeout, please say that directly rather than in a way that misleadingly makes it seem as though an actual positive, generous invitation to dialogue occurred.
posted by trig at 12:29 PM on November 14 [29 favorites]
I considered posting about how odd the choice of possible themes was. Like, it could have been about significant contributions of your culture to science, the arts, etc.
This is particularly odd to me:
What is one thing about your culture that people have misconceptions about or have stigmas within Western cultural perceptions?
Why would a post by and about a BIPOC POV have to center 'Western cultural perceptions'?
I post a lot, and all my posts are from a BIPOC perspective, because I am BIPOC. None of them are about rice cookers, alas.
posted by signal at 12:32 PM on November 14 [43 favorites]
This is particularly odd to me:
What is one thing about your culture that people have misconceptions about or have stigmas within Western cultural perceptions?
Why would a post by and about a BIPOC POV have to center 'Western cultural perceptions'?
I post a lot, and all my posts are from a BIPOC perspective, because I am BIPOC. None of them are about rice cookers, alas.
posted by signal at 12:32 PM on November 14 [43 favorites]
I was also confused by this post. I'm an Afrikaans white South African, so I'm not a "Western World Native" but I'm definitely not BIPOC. And I imagine there are BIPOC people who consider themselves to be Western World Natives (ugh sorry I don't like that term! American, European, British etc ) and who would have illuminating things to share about their non mainstream culture?
posted by Zumbador at 12:33 PM on November 14 [13 favorites]
posted by Zumbador at 12:33 PM on November 14 [13 favorites]
Listen to the people having the courage to share here. Stop this. Acknowledge the misstep. Have a retrospective.
You can’t ban everyone.
Is this how the site will be run as a community-led initiative? Is there any desire to listen and build trust?
posted by AntiMemetic at 12:45 PM on November 14 [18 favorites]
You can’t ban everyone.
Is this how the site will be run as a community-led initiative? Is there any desire to listen and build trust?
posted by AntiMemetic at 12:45 PM on November 14 [18 favorites]
Not to speak for anyone else's "culture" but this may be a useful resource for the BIPOC board as we wait for FPPs to roll in.
posted by love2potato at 12:47 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]
posted by love2potato at 12:47 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]
bet:
- How does your culture use rice cookers?
- What is one thing about your culture that people have misconceptions about or have stigmas within Western cultural perceptions?
- How does your country or culture view/treat cats (past and present)?
- What’s a particular food item that is popular in your culture and what are some of the popular variants?
proposed fpp:
"it is a common misconception that koreans love eating dogs; instead, the trendy dessert these days is eating cats. many recipes for this use gelatin, but it is possible to use rice starch, which can be obtained by washing regular sticky rice in a rice cooker bowl, much like the ones found here. people also can find these in non-cat form. #bipoc #global"
now we can tick off all four for the rest of the month
posted by i used to be someone else at 1:13 PM on November 14 [27 favorites]
- How does your culture use rice cookers?
- What is one thing about your culture that people have misconceptions about or have stigmas within Western cultural perceptions?
- How does your country or culture view/treat cats (past and present)?
- What’s a particular food item that is popular in your culture and what are some of the popular variants?
proposed fpp:
"it is a common misconception that koreans love eating dogs; instead, the trendy dessert these days is eating cats. many recipes for this use gelatin, but it is possible to use rice starch, which can be obtained by washing regular sticky rice in a rice cooker bowl, much like the ones found here. people also can find these in non-cat form. #bipoc #global"
now we can tick off all four for the rest of the month
posted by i used to be someone else at 1:13 PM on November 14 [27 favorites]
there was a minute where i got very ambitious and told myself i would do a big heritage undertaking by personally making baekseolgi for my daughter's 100-day, and then when i tried it kind of just tasted freezer-burned. i made pralines and gave them out and considered that good enough.
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 1:22 PM on November 14 [4 favorites]
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 1:22 PM on November 14 [4 favorites]
The old email address to contact the BIPOC board members directly no longer works. Is it no longer possible for users with concerns to reach out to the board without staff as an intermediary?
posted by AntiMemetic at 1:29 PM on November 14 [6 favorites]
posted by AntiMemetic at 1:29 PM on November 14 [6 favorites]
hey all,
Coming in off duty just to say, the rice cooker prompt was my idea because as a Persian, we use ours to make crispy rice while other friends I know use theirs to make one-pot-meals. It was a super harmless idea that I thought would inspire more food-related posts as I find the way we use certain tools in our cuisine to be quite special and unique to some of our cultures. I’m bummed that folks found it to be stereotyping/offensive.
We collaborated on the prompt ideas with the board and folks found them to be fun and light hearted. We were just trying to encourage taking up space in whatever ways feels best through low-stakes posting.
Please feel free to email me directly and I’ll forward any complaints to the board. Thanks
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:37 PM on November 14 [21 favorites]
Coming in off duty just to say, the rice cooker prompt was my idea because as a Persian, we use ours to make crispy rice while other friends I know use theirs to make one-pot-meals. It was a super harmless idea that I thought would inspire more food-related posts as I find the way we use certain tools in our cuisine to be quite special and unique to some of our cultures. I’m bummed that folks found it to be stereotyping/offensive.
We collaborated on the prompt ideas with the board and folks found them to be fun and light hearted. We were just trying to encourage taking up space in whatever ways feels best through low-stakes posting.
Please feel free to email me directly and I’ll forward any complaints to the board. Thanks
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:37 PM on November 14 [21 favorites]
We thought it would be a nice idea to intentionally encourage BIPOC users to take up more space the next few weeks and have some fun. I for one, was looking forward to writing about Persian and Middle eastern approaches to rice cookers, pressure cookers and more.
Again, if something didn’t land right or if you feel you’d like to see something different, feel free to email me. We aren’t moderating the thread to silence or ban people, we’re trying to keep it focused on the intended purpose. Again, feedback IS welcome. Email us, I’m happy to make adjustments and discuss new approaches with the board. All BIPOC on the site are also welcome to attend our board meetings that take place every 3rd Saturday of the month.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:49 PM on November 14 [4 favorites]
Again, if something didn’t land right or if you feel you’d like to see something different, feel free to email me. We aren’t moderating the thread to silence or ban people, we’re trying to keep it focused on the intended purpose. Again, feedback IS welcome. Email us, I’m happy to make adjustments and discuss new approaches with the board. All BIPOC on the site are also welcome to attend our board meetings that take place every 3rd Saturday of the month.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:49 PM on November 14 [4 favorites]
We aren’t moderating the thread to silence or ban people, we’re trying to keep it focused on the intended purpose.
...by deleting comments and banning people.
posted by SpiffyRob at 2:22 PM on November 14 [33 favorites]
...by deleting comments and banning people.
posted by SpiffyRob at 2:22 PM on November 14 [33 favorites]
It's not clear which members of staff read MetaTalk threads these days, but it's become a place where many users say that staff/user communication has broken down and legitimate concerns are brushed off or ignored. For mods to close MeTas before serious issues have been properly addressed, then start new threads expecting them to be "fun and light-hearted" and be disappointed by the negative atmosphere feels like a failure to read the room. My subjective impression is that that the balance of user frustration vs. goodwill here has passed a tipping point.
posted by Busy Old Fool at 2:29 PM on November 14 [21 favorites]
posted by Busy Old Fool at 2:29 PM on November 14 [21 favorites]
Thanks, thyme.
I’m bummed that folks found it to be stereotyping/offensive. ... We aren’t moderating the thread to silence or ban people, we’re trying to keep it focused on the intended purpose.
Respectfully - imagine if the mod or board response to snofoam's entirely understandable frustration had been more like yours, rather than the actual deletion+ban that happened - and the actual failure to thoughtfully address snofoam's (and others') legitimate reactions to the content of the post.
That the board was being clumsily well-intentioned was clear (to me), but the board probably knows as well as anyone that good intentions can still be derailed by unintentional microagressions and ignorance. That happened here. So the response should have been to acknowledge that and re-rail by letting people feel that the good will was stronger than the will to police and control.
Which did not happen, for hours.
posted by trig at 2:37 PM on November 14 [31 favorites]
I’m bummed that folks found it to be stereotyping/offensive. ... We aren’t moderating the thread to silence or ban people, we’re trying to keep it focused on the intended purpose.
Respectfully - imagine if the mod or board response to snofoam's entirely understandable frustration had been more like yours, rather than the actual deletion+ban that happened - and the actual failure to thoughtfully address snofoam's (and others') legitimate reactions to the content of the post.
That the board was being clumsily well-intentioned was clear (to me), but the board probably knows as well as anyone that good intentions can still be derailed by unintentional microagressions and ignorance. That happened here. So the response should have been to acknowledge that and re-rail by letting people feel that the good will was stronger than the will to police and control.
Which did not happen, for hours.
posted by trig at 2:37 PM on November 14 [31 favorites]
For what it's worth, travelingthyme, I look forward to your post, if you do make one, or to similarly inspired posts. I enjoyed the little surge of food posts earlier this year, and I would be interested to see a range of diverse food posts, BIPOC or otherwise. I know a lot of folks want to talk politics right now, even more than usual, but that's just not my jam.
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:46 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:46 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]
A friendly suggestion: could the tag be named something else, along the lines of "NovemBIPOC" or similar
Post edited to reflect this excellent suggestion, thanks!
Another thing I'm not clear on (as someone who is BIPOC who was considering make a post about a silly web game today) is whether this can go on any post by a BIPOC Mefite
Yes, the tag "NovemBIPOC" can go on any post by a BIPOC MeFite on any subject of their choosing.
Overall, apologies to all for not clarifying the intent this post in a better way. During the last BIPOC meeting, I brought up the idea of encouraging BIPOC members to vote. Others liked that idea and we workshopped some ideas about prompts during the meeting. I wrote up the post based on that workshopping, others did edits via Google docs, and after asking if anyone else wanted to post it, others said it was fine if I just went ahead and did it.
In retrospect, how this was received is a good reminder that BIPOC, like any group, is not monolithic and can contain multitudes. Again apologies, no ill intent was meant and we hope folks can move forward and be encouraged to make some interesting posts, please and thank you!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 4:44 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]
Post edited to reflect this excellent suggestion, thanks!
Another thing I'm not clear on (as someone who is BIPOC who was considering make a post about a silly web game today) is whether this can go on any post by a BIPOC Mefite
Yes, the tag "NovemBIPOC" can go on any post by a BIPOC MeFite on any subject of their choosing.
Overall, apologies to all for not clarifying the intent this post in a better way. During the last BIPOC meeting, I brought up the idea of encouraging BIPOC members to vote. Others liked that idea and we workshopped some ideas about prompts during the meeting. I wrote up the post based on that workshopping, others did edits via Google docs, and after asking if anyone else wanted to post it, others said it was fine if I just went ahead and did it.
In retrospect, how this was received is a good reminder that BIPOC, like any group, is not monolithic and can contain multitudes. Again apologies, no ill intent was meant and we hope folks can move forward and be encouraged to make some interesting posts, please and thank you!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 4:44 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]
I'm sorry to see that something that no doubt started off with the best of intentions has gone so awry, but tone-policing feedback by BIPOC users on a post that addresses them directly is not a good look. Those users should get an apology at a minimum.
posted by rpfields at 5:12 PM on November 14 [17 favorites]
posted by rpfields at 5:12 PM on November 14 [17 favorites]
And we’re still deleting things.
posted by hototogisu at 6:02 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]
posted by hototogisu at 6:02 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]
(God dammit I'll miss you herrdoktor)
posted by Diskeater at 6:06 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]
posted by Diskeater at 6:06 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]
Mod note: And we’re still deleting things.
To be clear, that comment was removed by the user requesting an account wipe, which automatically removes all comments.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:06 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]
To be clear, that comment was removed by the user requesting an account wipe, which automatically removes all comments.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:06 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]
Scared to click phunniemee's link; still traumatized from clicking a previous one from her before a content warning was added. Can someone tell me if it links to a PG movie from decades ago?
posted by donnagirl at 6:32 PM on November 14 [30 favorites]
posted by donnagirl at 6:32 PM on November 14 [30 favorites]
Mod note: Hi. I'm asking that people stay focused on the topic of this particular thread, which is encouraging BIPOC members to post and avoid bringing up subjects or disagreements from previous threads.
Please and thank you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:38 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]
Please and thank you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:38 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]
I know it wasn't your decision, Brandon, but if mods don't want spill-over topics may I gently suggest that Metatalk threads aren't closed while discussion is ongoing and before mods actually address raised concerns?
posted by donnagirl at 6:44 PM on November 14 [24 favorites]
posted by donnagirl at 6:44 PM on November 14 [24 favorites]
Scared to click phunniemee's link
It is a link to a photograph of a dumpster.
the dumpster appears to be on fire
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:45 PM on November 14 [6 favorites]
It is a link to a photograph of a dumpster.
the dumpster appears to be on fire
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:45 PM on November 14 [6 favorites]
like, stop. mod team, just stop. stop what you're doing. stop all this.
Please, let's go home, now, o-okay?
Let's go.
Don't do this. Please.
posted by glonous keming at 7:01 PM on November 14 [9 favorites]
Please, let's go home, now, o-okay?
Let's go.
Don't do this. Please.
posted by glonous keming at 7:01 PM on November 14 [9 favorites]
Mod note: may I gently suggest that Metatalk threads aren't closed while discussion is ongoing and before mods actually address raised concerns?
That's various moving factors here, not all of them public, and my shift is about over, so I don't have much more to say about this for now.
I ask that everyone please drop this subject for now in this thread and let this thread be about its original topic.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:08 PM on November 14
That's various moving factors here, not all of them public, and my shift is about over, so I don't have much more to say about this for now.
I ask that everyone please drop this subject for now in this thread and let this thread be about its original topic.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:08 PM on November 14
If you (plural) insult and/or criticize people in public and want to apologize, you ought to apologize in public, ideally in the same place, so it doesn't just perpetually look like someone fucked up or was an unwarranted asshole.
Especially if you pull quote them to criticize them while deleting the rest of their comment in order to make them look as unreasonable as possible.
posted by knobknosher at 7:18 PM on November 14 [21 favorites]
Especially if you pull quote them to criticize them while deleting the rest of their comment in order to make them look as unreasonable as possible.
posted by knobknosher at 7:18 PM on November 14 [21 favorites]
luv 2 cite secret factors and go offline
posted by sagc at 7:21 PM on November 14 [16 favorites]
posted by sagc at 7:21 PM on November 14 [16 favorites]
reached out to the member in question privately.
This is a lie. I was only sent a message telling me I had been banned for a day.
“they were deleted based on the guidelines and content policy alone, saying things like…”
Using deletions to mislead people about what someone commented should not be allowed. One of my comments you deleted was this:
“Let’s have an explanation of why we are asking people what they are doing with their rice cookers as if the only thing we know about asian people is that they have rice cookers. Asking as an asian person who wants to know the answer and wants to know why you are silencing POC feedback on this.”
I got an email ending my ban because my reaction was “understandable” and the whole thing was a “series of misunderstandings” yet the admin of the site is fine with the public record here being totally manipulated and obfuscated.
This is not legitimate moderation. It is lies, manipulation and gaslighting. It is unethical behavior. It is completely unreasonable and unacceptable. Behavior like this should not be permitted.
posted by snofoam at 7:37 PM on November 14 [72 favorites]
This is a lie. I was only sent a message telling me I had been banned for a day.
“they were deleted based on the guidelines and content policy alone, saying things like…”
Using deletions to mislead people about what someone commented should not be allowed. One of my comments you deleted was this:
“Let’s have an explanation of why we are asking people what they are doing with their rice cookers as if the only thing we know about asian people is that they have rice cookers. Asking as an asian person who wants to know the answer and wants to know why you are silencing POC feedback on this.”
I got an email ending my ban because my reaction was “understandable” and the whole thing was a “series of misunderstandings” yet the admin of the site is fine with the public record here being totally manipulated and obfuscated.
This is not legitimate moderation. It is lies, manipulation and gaslighting. It is unethical behavior. It is completely unreasonable and unacceptable. Behavior like this should not be permitted.
posted by snofoam at 7:37 PM on November 14 [72 favorites]
“…please drop this subject for now…”
What happens if we don’t? And when can we pick it back up again? Please?
posted by iamkimiam at 7:37 PM on November 14 [12 favorites]
What happens if we don’t? And when can we pick it back up again? Please?
posted by iamkimiam at 7:37 PM on November 14 [12 favorites]
It's almost like you don't get to shut down the threads that users start and then tell users what they're allowed to discuss in the ones you start.
posted by donnagirl at 7:39 PM on November 14 [11 favorites]
posted by donnagirl at 7:39 PM on November 14 [11 favorites]
Can't we just start a new thread to discuss this whole mess? I'm not particularly invested in the sanctity of the global perspectives thread, so I'm fine either way, but there's this vibe of "if we can't discuss it here, we can't discuss it anywhere," and that's not the case, is it?
posted by Bugbread at 7:40 PM on November 14 [4 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 7:40 PM on November 14 [4 favorites]
that's not the case, is it?
Who knows? It kinda feels like absolutely anything might be the case if staff think it might help cover up their own bad decisions.
Ron Howard voiceover, etc…
posted by snofoam at 7:46 PM on November 14 [7 favorites]
Who knows? It kinda feels like absolutely anything might be the case if staff think it might help cover up their own bad decisions.
Ron Howard voiceover, etc…
posted by snofoam at 7:46 PM on November 14 [7 favorites]
To be clear, that comment was removed by the user requesting an account wipe, which automatically removes all comments.
Yes, but people don't request account wipes for fun and whimsy. This thread was a contributing factor.
Can't we just start a new thread to discuss this whole mess?
We had three MeTas in rapid succession back in 2023, with over 800 comments between them. (One of them was originated by Diskeater, who's here in this thread.) Where did it get us?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:22 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]
Yes, but people don't request account wipes for fun and whimsy. This thread was a contributing factor.
Can't we just start a new thread to discuss this whole mess?
We had three MeTas in rapid succession back in 2023, with over 800 comments between them. (One of them was originated by Diskeater, who's here in this thread.) Where did it get us?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:22 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]
We aren’t moderating the thread to silence or ban people, we’re trying to keep it focused on the intended purpose. Again, feedback IS welcome. Email us, I’m happy to make adjustments and discuss new approaches with the board.
So feedback is welcome, as long as it's not on the thread for discussing the thing, or you'll get fucking banned? I mean, you can forgive me for not understanding how you're using "welcome" here...
posted by Dysk at 9:33 PM on November 14 [23 favorites]
So feedback is welcome, as long as it's not on the thread for discussing the thing, or you'll get fucking banned? I mean, you can forgive me for not understanding how you're using "welcome" here...
posted by Dysk at 9:33 PM on November 14 [23 favorites]
I mean honestly it was bad enough when the previous thread was deleted without addressing the deletion of completely innocuous messages, and now it's happening again?
I think at the very least snofoam deserves a public apology.
I know that this thread was well intentioned, but those intentions have clearly failed, and trying to reroute an active conversation like this is not going to succeed without very heavy moderation
posted by Cannon Fodder at 11:25 PM on November 14 [19 favorites]
I think at the very least snofoam deserves a public apology.
I know that this thread was well intentioned, but those intentions have clearly failed, and trying to reroute an active conversation like this is not going to succeed without very heavy moderation
posted by Cannon Fodder at 11:25 PM on November 14 [19 favorites]
A spiral of heavy handed moderation leading to a breakdown of goodwill and increasingly antagonistic behavior of users towards mods leading to more heavy handed moderation is the oldest forum failure mode in the book and it is fairly absurd to see it occurring on a 25-year-old site that prides itself on moderation. Seriously, what is even happening here?
posted by atoxyl at 12:30 AM on November 15 [53 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 12:30 AM on November 15 [53 favorites]
A while back I mentioned that I have Romany heritage but used the G word that was used in my family and that I'm okay with (as are many G people) - there are other words I'd like to use to describe me as G but they are probably banned too. Why must we be so constrained? tiptoeing around the Americans.
My comment was immeditely removed with a message that racist slurs were verboten. How about looking around before that is chiselled into the metafilter tablets.
I was looking fwd to reading this thread but the joy police stepped in killing it as it was germinating. We are not stackexchange.
posted by unearthed at 12:37 AM on November 15 [20 favorites]
My comment was immeditely removed with a message that racist slurs were verboten. How about looking around before that is chiselled into the metafilter tablets.
I was looking fwd to reading this thread but the joy police stepped in killing it as it was germinating. We are not stackexchange.
posted by unearthed at 12:37 AM on November 15 [20 favorites]
Metafilter currently has an automated filter that forbids anything it considers a slur, including the word g*p*y. I'm not a big fan of those filters. But it probably wasn't a deliberate act by a moderator.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:43 AM on November 15 [2 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:43 AM on November 15 [2 favorites]
The filter prevents users from linking directly to charities that support Roma people, provide education etc. even if the word is not visible in the comment. I had to use a link shortener to post this comment as Metafilter's word filter regards the URL containing the charity's name as a slur.
posted by Busy Old Fool at 3:46 AM on November 15 [21 favorites]
posted by Busy Old Fool at 3:46 AM on November 15 [21 favorites]
we want to hear your cultural perspective!
no, not like that 😠
posted by phunniemee at 3:51 AM on November 15 [49 favorites]
no, not like that 😠
posted by phunniemee at 3:51 AM on November 15 [49 favorites]
Mods, I suggest deletion of this post and reposting the general ask without the problematic framing aspects that have been roundly noted here. The derail, deletions, buttoning/wipe, grievances, and acrimony seem to me like a bad follow-on to a well-intended post that went pear-shaped. I don't think there's a need for comments to be open on what's very clearly intended as an informational post, but YMMV.
I honestly don't know if MeTa solves anything anymore, let alone new MeTas, but I am submitting a MeTa that is intended to offer a space for some focused discussion around some recent issues.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:29 AM on November 15 [5 favorites]
I honestly don't know if MeTa solves anything anymore, let alone new MeTas, but I am submitting a MeTa that is intended to offer a space for some focused discussion around some recent issues.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:29 AM on November 15 [5 favorites]
I agree with cupcakeninja except I’d just close comments as I think keeping the public record is important.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:38 AM on November 15 [11 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 4:38 AM on November 15 [11 favorites]
Oh, that's better. I revise my request and concur with warriorqueen. I don't want folks to feel that this discussion has been memory-holed.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:54 AM on November 15 [3 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:54 AM on November 15 [3 favorites]
the fun thing about all of this is that microaggressions came up a few times. you want to know why i don't have any real trust in the mod team? you want to know why i posted that shitpost fpp example up there?
y'all had to be fucking shamed into doing your fucking jobs and following your fucking policy in this thread.
y'all still let this one stand.
why the fuck would i put in the effort to post anything "cultural" at this point as an fpp? there's a reason why the last time i left i asked you to kill the ones i'd written. the only reason i even post comments on cultural items is because i'm actively irritated by white people appropriating some shit--and even then, i just regurgitate stuff i wrote *elsewhere* at this point.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:13 PM on November 15 [14 favorites]
y'all had to be fucking shamed into doing your fucking jobs and following your fucking policy in this thread.
y'all still let this one stand.
why the fuck would i put in the effort to post anything "cultural" at this point as an fpp? there's a reason why the last time i left i asked you to kill the ones i'd written. the only reason i even post comments on cultural items is because i'm actively irritated by white people appropriating some shit--and even then, i just regurgitate stuff i wrote *elsewhere* at this point.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:13 PM on November 15 [14 favorites]
i should not be this infuriated.
i left twitter when it became a cesspool not worth wading.
i need to think about my feelings about this site.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:20 PM on November 15 [6 favorites]
i left twitter when it became a cesspool not worth wading.
i need to think about my feelings about this site.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:20 PM on November 15 [6 favorites]
This post was framed as a BIPOC board initiative so I feel the need to chime in as a member of the BIPOC board.
I'm not sure if the meeting minutes from our last meeting have been published yet, but when they are, those minutes will reflect that during the meeting all the attendees explicitly discussed and agreed that we should NOT do this exact thing, viz., we should NOT make a MetaTalk post overtly inviting other people to make more "global" posts.
The reason we explicitly agreed we should not make such a post on MetaTalk is because such a post - no matter how well worded - would obviously be extremely patronizing and very likely counter productive, likely to cause unnecessary discussion about what should be a done deal, leading to hurt feelings and offense.
What was agreed upon during the meeting was that we (the BIPOC board) would instead be the change we wished to see on MeFi. We would, either individually or as a team, put together non-US-focused FPPs on topics we think are interesting. And we would make a regular habit of posting such non-US topics directly as FPPs - without drawing attention to our endeavor, with no fanfare about this being a BIPOC board initiative (except for being noted in the minutes).
The fact that this type of post was nevertheless made on MetaTalk, in the name of the BIPOC board, is confusing to me. There seems to have been a major miscommunication along the way or else perhaps someone forgot the thing we all explicitly agreed on? I'm sure this will be discussed in our next meeting.
I hope the community will understand from my comment this post was, as far as I know, an unfortunate mistake. Our minutes from the next meeting (which is scheduled for tomorrow) will likely contain a summary of our discussion about this, if anyone is interested in following along.
posted by MiraK at 5:29 PM on November 15 [64 favorites]
I'm not sure if the meeting minutes from our last meeting have been published yet, but when they are, those minutes will reflect that during the meeting all the attendees explicitly discussed and agreed that we should NOT do this exact thing, viz., we should NOT make a MetaTalk post overtly inviting other people to make more "global" posts.
The reason we explicitly agreed we should not make such a post on MetaTalk is because such a post - no matter how well worded - would obviously be extremely patronizing and very likely counter productive, likely to cause unnecessary discussion about what should be a done deal, leading to hurt feelings and offense.
What was agreed upon during the meeting was that we (the BIPOC board) would instead be the change we wished to see on MeFi. We would, either individually or as a team, put together non-US-focused FPPs on topics we think are interesting. And we would make a regular habit of posting such non-US topics directly as FPPs - without drawing attention to our endeavor, with no fanfare about this being a BIPOC board initiative (except for being noted in the minutes).
The fact that this type of post was nevertheless made on MetaTalk, in the name of the BIPOC board, is confusing to me. There seems to have been a major miscommunication along the way or else perhaps someone forgot the thing we all explicitly agreed on? I'm sure this will be discussed in our next meeting.
I hope the community will understand from my comment this post was, as far as I know, an unfortunate mistake. Our minutes from the next meeting (which is scheduled for tomorrow) will likely contain a summary of our discussion about this, if anyone is interested in following along.
posted by MiraK at 5:29 PM on November 15 [64 favorites]
I'm not sure if the meeting minutes from our last meeting have been published yet
BIPOC meeting minutes have not been published since January of this year. I did not know the board was still meeting.
posted by Vatnesine at 5:40 PM on November 15 [15 favorites]
BIPOC meeting minutes have not been published since January of this year. I did not know the board was still meeting.
posted by Vatnesine at 5:40 PM on November 15 [15 favorites]
I'm not sure if the meeting minutes from our last meeting have been published yet
loup claims they're waiting on you folks to send the minutes.
Seems there's....something weird going on.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:56 PM on November 15 [10 favorites]
loup claims they're waiting on you folks to send the minutes.
Seems there's....something weird going on.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:56 PM on November 15 [10 favorites]
To be clear, writing up the minutes was an extremely onerous task the way the board has been doing it until very recently. The team member in charge of the minutes has worked pretty heroically IMO to put detailed notes together. But they (like all of us) are living a busy life alongside this as well and that may be the reason why it's taken so long.
Please know that all the board members, including the mods, are just humans with busy lives and day jobs and kids and stuff. I do think the more "official" members of the board who are mods or otherwise employed by MeFi, work way harder than I do and deserve some grace here, especially if it really was a miscommunication/honest mistake as I was guessing earlier.
posted by MiraK at 6:06 PM on November 15 [1 favorite]
Please know that all the board members, including the mods, are just humans with busy lives and day jobs and kids and stuff. I do think the more "official" members of the board who are mods or otherwise employed by MeFi, work way harder than I do and deserve some grace here, especially if it really was a miscommunication/honest mistake as I was guessing earlier.
posted by MiraK at 6:06 PM on November 15 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure if the meeting minutes from our last meeting have been published yet, but when they are, those minutes will reflect that during the meeting all the attendees explicitly discussed and agreed that we should NOT do this exact thing, viz., we should NOT make a MetaTalk post overtly inviting other people to make more "global" posts.
...
...
...
what the fuck
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:26 PM on November 15 [21 favorites]
...
...
...
what the fuck
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:26 PM on November 15 [21 favorites]
MiraK—thank you for explaining, and for the work that you and the whole board do. I hope we can get some clarification from the mod team, because while misunderstandings happen, the level of defensiveness that was seen in response to “criticism of the BIPOC board” seems especially absurd if this post was made contrary to the BIPOC board’s consensus.
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 7:56 PM on November 15 [18 favorites]
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 7:56 PM on November 15 [18 favorites]
Yes, we have not one, not two, but three mods who have participated in this thread and who have, to give the most possible grace consistent with their public comments here, at the very least spoken and acted under the mistaken impression that this post was put up at the request of the BIPOC -- which MiraK as a member now informs us is very much not the case.
At the very least, Brandon Blatcher owes the community and particularly the BIPOC Board a big, public apology for saying right at the top that this was a message from the Board.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:21 PM on November 15 [18 favorites]
At the very least, Brandon Blatcher owes the community and particularly the BIPOC Board a big, public apology for saying right at the top that this was a message from the Board.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:21 PM on November 15 [18 favorites]
herrdoktor wiped his account over this.
you should ALL RESIGN.
posted by glonous keming at 9:56 PM on November 15 [7 favorites]
you should ALL RESIGN.
posted by glonous keming at 9:56 PM on November 15 [7 favorites]
At the very least, Brandon Blatcher owes the community and particularly the BIPOC Board a big, public apology for saying right at the top that this was a message from the Board.
I can say I’m sorry right now for the obvious confusion that has occurred.
The Board will definitely talk, examine minutes and the Google docs at the next meeting to determine how a miscommunication occurred.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:09 PM on November 15 [4 favorites]
I can say I’m sorry right now for the obvious confusion that has occurred.
The Board will definitely talk, examine minutes and the Google docs at the next meeting to determine how a miscommunication occurred.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:09 PM on November 15 [4 favorites]
It seems that at the very least, another BIPOC board member realized that posting this type of thread was likely to go over poorly, which means the gigantically defensive moderator response to people pointing out that it came across as racist AF was extremely misplaced. Which is a huge problem with the "thin mod line" thing that's been happening here for years. Multiple people deserve apologies.
posted by lapis at 10:13 PM on November 15 [22 favorites]
posted by lapis at 10:13 PM on November 15 [22 favorites]
This has already been covered, but this bears repeating.
The BIPOC board, the board that was created because the staff around here was rightfully seen as too blind to its own bias w/r/t race, the board one of whose reasons for existing was to advise and shore up that weakness in the admin, explicitly said (paraphrasing) "no this is 1000% a bad idea" and the post still got made anyway??
fucking lol. lmao, even. what the everloving shit are y'all doing.
posted by coolname at 10:31 PM on November 15 [19 favorites]
The BIPOC board, the board that was created because the staff around here was rightfully seen as too blind to its own bias w/r/t race, the board one of whose reasons for existing was to advise and shore up that weakness in the admin, explicitly said (paraphrasing) "no this is 1000% a bad idea" and the post still got made anyway??
fucking lol. lmao, even. what the everloving shit are y'all doing.
posted by coolname at 10:31 PM on November 15 [19 favorites]
"We made a BIPOC board to provide us with advice and help us make decisions about BIPOC issues. One bit of advice they gave us was not to ask about rice cookers, because people would get upset and call us racist. One decision they made was that we wouldn't ask about rice cookers. So...we posted about rice cookers. People got upset and called us racist because of it, so we deleted their comments and started issuing bans."
Man, personally, I think the whole rice cooker question itself was a super tempest in atea pot rice cooker, and it's something I literally cannot imagine a single person here in Japan getting upset about. But setting that aside, and just looking at the fundamental structure of what happened...even replacing "BIPOC" with {Group X} and "rice cooker" with {Action Y} and "calling us racist" with {Result Z}, that whole dynamic is insane: "We made a {Group X} board to help us with {Group X} things. They told us not to do {Action Y} or there would be negative {Result Z}. So we did {Action Y} anyway, and negative {Result Z} happened. So we deleted {Result Z} comments and started issuing bans."
posted by Bugbread at 10:32 PM on November 15 [13 favorites]
Man, personally, I think the whole rice cooker question itself was a super tempest in a
posted by Bugbread at 10:32 PM on November 15 [13 favorites]
> determine how a miscommunication occurred
maybe i can help shed some light here
posted by glonous keming at 10:53 PM on November 15 [4 favorites]
maybe i can help shed some light here
"In this specific case the proposal was discussed and approved by the board in our last meeting and Brandon (as part of the Board) decided to take the lead and make it happen."the "how" isn't really a big curious as much as the "why". yall did this.
posted by loup (staff) at 3:06 PM on November 14 [+] [⚑]
posted by glonous keming at 10:53 PM on November 15 [4 favorites]
loup: In this specific case the proposal was discussed and approved by the board in our last meeting
MiraK: during the meeting all the attendees explicitly discussed and agreed that we should NOT do this exact thing, viz., we should NOT make a MetaTalk post overtly inviting other people to make more "global" posts.
I'm having a hard time squaring this circle.
posted by Dysk at 11:07 PM on November 15 [23 favorites]
MiraK: during the meeting all the attendees explicitly discussed and agreed that we should NOT do this exact thing, viz., we should NOT make a MetaTalk post overtly inviting other people to make more "global" posts.
I'm having a hard time squaring this circle.
posted by Dysk at 11:07 PM on November 15 [23 favorites]
Surprise twist: Due to insufficient management communications, there have actually been two BIPOC Boards this whole time, both unaware of each other's existence. The reason it always takes months for the minutes to be published is that one Board sends in its minutes, then the other Board sends in its minutes, and nothing matches up, so admin spends months trying to reconcile the two conflicting documents.
posted by Bugbread at 11:19 PM on November 15 [31 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 11:19 PM on November 15 [31 favorites]
So the BIPOC board is full of mods, mods are speaking on behalf of the BIPOC board without the permission of its non-staff members, and there is no way to contact the board, except by emailing members who are also site employees? Sounds legit.
posted by snofoam at 1:50 AM on November 16 [16 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 1:50 AM on November 16 [16 favorites]
This should go without saying, but there should be no employees on the BIPOC board. It is a conflict of interest in a group that was created to address BIPOC issues, including moderation and site management. This is plainly obvious to everyone, right?
There needs to be a liaison from the site management side to facilitate things like board access to tools and payment of honoraria, but this liaison should not be a board member.
Communication from the BIPOC board should come from the board itself and not employees claiming to represent the board.
Site users should be able to contact the board directly.
One tiny first step at this point would be for the BIPOC board to confirm that any employee members have left the BIPOC board that they should never have been on. Another would be to create a direct communication channel to the current board. I think both of these things could be done without taking up too much board member time. (It doesn’t have to be a board member setting up the email to forward to the board members, but it shouldn’t be an employee. This should be a channel that management does not control or have access to.)
posted by snofoam at 2:50 AM on November 16 [20 favorites]
There needs to be a liaison from the site management side to facilitate things like board access to tools and payment of honoraria, but this liaison should not be a board member.
Communication from the BIPOC board should come from the board itself and not employees claiming to represent the board.
Site users should be able to contact the board directly.
One tiny first step at this point would be for the BIPOC board to confirm that any employee members have left the BIPOC board that they should never have been on. Another would be to create a direct communication channel to the current board. I think both of these things could be done without taking up too much board member time. (It doesn’t have to be a board member setting up the email to forward to the board members, but it shouldn’t be an employee. This should be a channel that management does not control or have access to.)
posted by snofoam at 2:50 AM on November 16 [20 favorites]
I also think there should be an independent moderation standards board that should have access to all moderation activity on the site. This board should be empowered to publicly share any relevant recommendations that arise from the course of their review and discussion of site activity. Any site with best in class professional moderation would surely welcome such a board, as it would confirm the consistently high standards of moderation that users have come to expect.
posted by snofoam at 2:59 AM on November 16 [3 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 2:59 AM on November 16 [3 favorites]
Also, I know she is not interested in managing the day-to-day here, and I appreciate that, but I am kind of surprised that jessamyn is okay with supporting the kind of ethical lapses and abuses that are going on here. It just doesn't seem consistent with things she has said here or elsewhere.
posted by snofoam at 3:19 AM on November 16 [9 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 3:19 AM on November 16 [9 favorites]
I've clearly missed a lot that's been going on in recent months and while I'm trying to piece together things in this thread, I keep getting hung up on the thing about the meeting minutes. Is it normal for it to take months for minutes to be released? I don't understand the holdup?
posted by TwoStride at 3:50 AM on November 16 [3 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 3:50 AM on November 16 [3 favorites]
Someone involved in the minutes is under the impression that “minutes“ means “accurate transcript“ rather than “rough summary“.
posted by bowbeacon at 4:13 AM on November 16 [20 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 4:13 AM on November 16 [20 favorites]
whatever the ultimate future of this website is, this feels very much like the nail in the coffin for trust between the current moderation staff and anyone who cares about the moderation of the website in any capacity
really absurd stuff over the last few weeks, which themselves were just the culmination of plenty of other unforced errors
I guess I won't say the bannable harassment phrase but please know more people than have said it here are thinking it
posted by Kybard at 4:21 AM on November 16 [28 favorites]
really absurd stuff over the last few weeks, which themselves were just the culmination of plenty of other unforced errors
I guess I won't say the bannable harassment phrase but please know more people than have said it here are thinking it
posted by Kybard at 4:21 AM on November 16 [28 favorites]
Is it normal for it to take months for minutes to be released? I don't understand the holdup?
Formal minutes can take a bit because they are a legal record and have to be signed by everyone. But that's for like, boards that hold the financial keys or are firing someone - a "suable" board. Usually those minutes are approved at the next meeting.
Normal meeting minutes can just be a copy of the agenda with the findings or final decisions noted under them and are often sent like 20 minutes after the meeting.
What some people in my org are doing is taking the Zoom/Teams transcript, asking Copilot or Chat GPT to summarize, checking it over and then sending it. It's mixed results but it is an option - I think AI is actually useful for summaries.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:08 AM on November 16 [11 favorites]
Formal minutes can take a bit because they are a legal record and have to be signed by everyone. But that's for like, boards that hold the financial keys or are firing someone - a "suable" board. Usually those minutes are approved at the next meeting.
Normal meeting minutes can just be a copy of the agenda with the findings or final decisions noted under them and are often sent like 20 minutes after the meeting.
What some people in my org are doing is taking the Zoom/Teams transcript, asking Copilot or Chat GPT to summarize, checking it over and then sending it. It's mixed results but it is an option - I think AI is actually useful for summaries.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:08 AM on November 16 [11 favorites]
In my experience, the first order of business in a meeting or group that keeps minutes is a motion to "approve the [pre-circulated] minutes of the prior meeting."
If this isn't done, then it seems like the very taking of minutes is somewhat performative.
posted by Rumple at 7:41 PM on November 16 [4 favorites]
If this isn't done, then it seems like the very taking of minutes is somewhat performative.
posted by Rumple at 7:41 PM on November 16 [4 favorites]
What’s the bannable harassment phrase that people are thinking? Is it something you can say in the form of explaining to other people what you mean or is that bannable also?
posted by Wood at 3:42 PM on November 18 [1 favorite]
posted by Wood at 3:42 PM on November 18 [1 favorite]
Updated guidelines on types of communication considered harassment
posted by umber vowel at 4:32 PM on November 18 [4 favorites]
posted by umber vowel at 4:32 PM on November 18 [4 favorites]
Hi MeFites, this is an update from the non-moderator members of the BIPOC Board following our Board meeting on Saturday in which this thread was the main topic of discussion. During the meeting we discovered that this MeTa post was made as the result of some unfortunate miscommunications and mistakes.
1. Some Board members believed that we had agreed in our October meeting to post a MeTa making an announcement and invitation, and others believed we had agreed not to post a MeTa. There was no bad faith, just an honest misunderstanding/misremembering.
2. One Board member quickly took the initiative to create a post they thought we had agreed to create.
3. An email was sent to the rest of the Board providing a 12-hour time limit to read, discuss, offer edits, finalize the draft, and approve the draft. Unfortunately, most of the members of the Board - from various timezones with different capacities - were not able to respond to this unscheduled review request within 12 hours.
4. The review window closed with just two Board members providing input on the draft of the post, and one of whom only noted that the turnaround time was very brief.
5. The post then went live on MeTa.
The BIPOC Board itself was in the midst of a transition; members who had volunteered their time to do critical admin coordination had exited the Board just prior to the October meeting. For members of the BIPOC Board this episode illustrated that we need a better workflow when it comes to public-facing communications as a group.
Next steps:
1. In reflecting on what happened, the Board has decided on a process to approve the final version of any irregular posts that represents the BIPOC Board activities (not including typical updates such as the meeting minutes) before it goes live. Approval will be sought from members who attend the meeting at which the final draft is discussed, and all other members will have 48 hours following the meeting to chime in with their approval (or lack thereof). Only posts that get a full consensus will go live.
2. In addition the Board has requested that a clear separation be maintained between moderators' actions vs. Board actions. Board members who are moderators have been asked not to moderate in the name of or on behalf of the Board, since the BIPOC Board has no moderation powers.
Finally, we do acknowledge that there were other issues with the post and how this thread has gone. But the BIPOC Board’s involvement in this was limited (or nonexistent) so we don’t feel able to comment on it.
Please also keep in mind that the Board is an all-volunteer effort. We don’t really have the capacity to stick around to answer more questions, especially given the co-ordination required to approve public postings. Nevertheless we wanted to be transparent about what’s going on, hence this comment.
posted by MiraK at 5:05 PM on November 18 [22 favorites]
1. Some Board members believed that we had agreed in our October meeting to post a MeTa making an announcement and invitation, and others believed we had agreed not to post a MeTa. There was no bad faith, just an honest misunderstanding/misremembering.
2. One Board member quickly took the initiative to create a post they thought we had agreed to create.
3. An email was sent to the rest of the Board providing a 12-hour time limit to read, discuss, offer edits, finalize the draft, and approve the draft. Unfortunately, most of the members of the Board - from various timezones with different capacities - were not able to respond to this unscheduled review request within 12 hours.
4. The review window closed with just two Board members providing input on the draft of the post, and one of whom only noted that the turnaround time was very brief.
5. The post then went live on MeTa.
The BIPOC Board itself was in the midst of a transition; members who had volunteered their time to do critical admin coordination had exited the Board just prior to the October meeting. For members of the BIPOC Board this episode illustrated that we need a better workflow when it comes to public-facing communications as a group.
Next steps:
1. In reflecting on what happened, the Board has decided on a process to approve the final version of any irregular posts that represents the BIPOC Board activities (not including typical updates such as the meeting minutes) before it goes live. Approval will be sought from members who attend the meeting at which the final draft is discussed, and all other members will have 48 hours following the meeting to chime in with their approval (or lack thereof). Only posts that get a full consensus will go live.
2. In addition the Board has requested that a clear separation be maintained between moderators' actions vs. Board actions. Board members who are moderators have been asked not to moderate in the name of or on behalf of the Board, since the BIPOC Board has no moderation powers.
Finally, we do acknowledge that there were other issues with the post and how this thread has gone. But the BIPOC Board’s involvement in this was limited (or nonexistent) so we don’t feel able to comment on it.
Please also keep in mind that the Board is an all-volunteer effort. We don’t really have the capacity to stick around to answer more questions, especially given the co-ordination required to approve public postings. Nevertheless we wanted to be transparent about what’s going on, hence this comment.
posted by MiraK at 5:05 PM on November 18 [22 favorites]
What's the mod/non mod split on the board, as of the last meeting? (Sorry if that's beyond the scope of public statements that can be made without a full discussion period)
posted by sagc at 5:10 PM on November 18 [3 favorites]
posted by sagc at 5:10 PM on November 18 [3 favorites]
It's 3/3.
posted by MiraK at 5:12 PM on November 18 [3 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 5:12 PM on November 18 [3 favorites]
Honest question: how does the board feel about being half-staff, and 1/3 staff-who-don’t-interact-with-the-site-aside-from-professionally?
posted by rule-abiding non-dead site-member at 5:56 PM on November 18 [7 favorites]
posted by rule-abiding non-dead site-member at 5:56 PM on November 18 [7 favorites]
It's 3/3.
Sweet jesus. Why even let non-employees on the board at this point?
posted by snofoam at 6:43 PM on November 18 [3 favorites]
Sweet jesus. Why even let non-employees on the board at this point?
posted by snofoam at 6:43 PM on November 18 [3 favorites]
Why was 12 hours for a totally non-emergency thing considered a reasonable deadline? Other deadlines are weirdly generous and then totally ignored anyway. I don't understand how staff are thinking about prioritization at all.
posted by lapis at 7:32 PM on November 18 [14 favorites]
posted by lapis at 7:32 PM on November 18 [14 favorites]
Clarification, before too many assumptions get made: are the three staff members "on the board," or are they just attending the meetings as staff? (It seems like the board meetings were always attended by staff/admin representatives, including, for example, Cortex + nearly the entire mod team from the very start. But from meeting #4 onward, the minutes stopped specifying who was there as a board member vs merely there as staff, so it's a little ambiguous from the outside.)
(Fairly certain Loup isn't "on the board," for example, but I bet they're being counted in that 3.)
posted by nobody at 7:34 PM on November 18 [3 favorites]
(Fairly certain Loup isn't "on the board," for example, but I bet they're being counted in that 3.)
posted by nobody at 7:34 PM on November 18 [3 favorites]
MiraK, thank you for your updates in this thread.
I have a question:
Some Board members believed that we had agreed in our October meeting to post a MeTa making an announcement and invitation, and others believed we had agreed not to post a MeTa. There was no bad faith, just an honest misunderstanding/misremembering.
Was the set of Board members who believed this thread should be posted identical to the set of mods, or were there non-mod members of the Board who shared that impression?
posted by trig at 8:43 PM on November 18 [9 favorites]
I have a question:
Some Board members believed that we had agreed in our October meeting to post a MeTa making an announcement and invitation, and others believed we had agreed not to post a MeTa. There was no bad faith, just an honest misunderstanding/misremembering.
Was the set of Board members who believed this thread should be posted identical to the set of mods, or were there non-mod members of the Board who shared that impression?
posted by trig at 8:43 PM on November 18 [9 favorites]
So...
So, amazingly, what I'm hearing is that this whole thing is something that would have been completely avoided if BIPOC Board meeting minutes had been created and circulated to the Board members in a timely fashion?
posted by Bugbread at 8:59 PM on November 18 [29 favorites]
So, amazingly, what I'm hearing is that this whole thing is something that would have been completely avoided if BIPOC Board meeting minutes had been created and circulated to the Board members in a timely fashion?
posted by Bugbread at 8:59 PM on November 18 [29 favorites]
After taking time to reflect and listen, particularly to the feedback in the past days and in my conversations with the BIPOC Board, I now understand the gravity and impact of my mistakes. I have extended an apology to Thyme and Brandon, whose dedication and genuine commitment to the board's mission I’ve always commended. I regret that these circumstances have led to Brandon's decision to step down from the BIPOC Board but I fully respect and support his decision.
To snofoam, I owe you an honest apology. Deleting your comments was wrong, and I take full responsibility for that error in judgment. I rushed to act without taking the time to understand the full context of your comment, and in doing so, I silenced you instead of engaging with it constructively. We are actively working on changes to ensure these mistakes aren't repeated, and we will share these updates with the community in the upcoming days.
posted by loup (staff) at 8:23 AM on November 20 [27 favorites]
To snofoam, I owe you an honest apology. Deleting your comments was wrong, and I take full responsibility for that error in judgment. I rushed to act without taking the time to understand the full context of your comment, and in doing so, I silenced you instead of engaging with it constructively. We are actively working on changes to ensure these mistakes aren't repeated, and we will share these updates with the community in the upcoming days.
posted by loup (staff) at 8:23 AM on November 20 [27 favorites]
I appreciate your apology for what it is, but you also misrepresented my comments publicly by cherry picking and then sharing parts of them in order to justify your mistake. That’s a serious abuse of your position, and in a way, the most toxic and vindictive part of this whole mess.
posted by snofoam at 9:33 AM on November 20 [15 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 9:33 AM on November 20 [15 favorites]
Fair point, snofoam. If it's OK with you, I'd like to retract and delete that comment I made and reinstate your deleted comments. I admit that this won't change much at this point, but I do consider it one of the necessary steps towards some improvement in the interactions between member and moderators.
posted by loup (staff) at 10:09 AM on November 20 [9 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 10:09 AM on November 20 [9 favorites]
Honestly, just acknowledging and apologizing at this point is probably better. There isn't any way to undo what was done and restoring the comments wouldn't quite fix things. For example, I wouldn't have called you guys MOTHERFUCKERS if you hadn't kept deleting my comments that did not break guidelines, even as I kept changing the wording to be more and more reasonable. At that point I knew you were just going to delete that comment anyway. So, to restore that after the fact isn't really an accurate representation of what was happening or why I was saying what I was saying.
posted by snofoam at 10:27 AM on November 20 [18 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 10:27 AM on November 20 [18 favorites]
Deleting the record of your ill-considered actions and words makes a lot of our other discussions about said behavior appear baseless. Please, you've memory-holed enough of MeFi at this point. Let this one testament to your work here stand.
posted by donnagirl at 6:40 PM on November 20 [12 favorites]
posted by donnagirl at 6:40 PM on November 20 [12 favorites]
Hi all, I wanted to follow up on this thread:
After speaking directly to the BIPOC board members and debriefing on the aftermath of the “Seeking global perspectives from the community” MeTa in early November, we want to acknowledge the mistakes that were made in the process of planning the initiative and share what we have learned for the future.
1. We did not attempt to clarify and accurately align our understandings of the intended process for the initiative with the board members. We made the assumption that the post would be a MetaTalk, while members of the board were under a different impression. We got ahead of ourselves and jumped to creating the initiative without taking care to double check what the board had envisioned this project to look like. In the future we will make sure to clarify and establish clear expectations before launching a project/action item.
2. We gave too short of a turnaround time for feedback and made board members feel rushed. We also did not properly acknowledge the feedback that *was* given and also made the mistake of assuming the feedback was an automatic approval of the project as-is.
In the future we will make sure to receive a clear YES from each member of the board who attended the specific meeting a project was created from, and we will provide a sufficient amount of time for said feedback to prevent the issue of rushing members. As adopted at our last meeting on November 16th, we will now maintain the following policy:
External communications need to be signed off by everyone PRESENT at the meeting + 48 hour turnaround for nonpresent members.
3. Thyme fully acknowledges the importance of providing context, and how the lack of context in the post resulted in certain questions/themes not landing well and causing harm to other users. Thyme apologizes for this oversight and will make sure to take care in considering the cultural history and implications of using specific language and ideas in the future.
Thank you all for your feedback and for the patience. I am hopeful that moving forward we'll be able to try another initiative like this out with everything we've learned in the process. A huge thank you to the BIPOC Board members as well for their work and labor, as well as their honesty in sorting out what went wrong at our last meeting. I hope to do a better job creating spaces for BIPOC users to feel welcome and heard in the future.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 2:25 PM on December 19 [1 favorite]
After speaking directly to the BIPOC board members and debriefing on the aftermath of the “Seeking global perspectives from the community” MeTa in early November, we want to acknowledge the mistakes that were made in the process of planning the initiative and share what we have learned for the future.
1. We did not attempt to clarify and accurately align our understandings of the intended process for the initiative with the board members. We made the assumption that the post would be a MetaTalk, while members of the board were under a different impression. We got ahead of ourselves and jumped to creating the initiative without taking care to double check what the board had envisioned this project to look like. In the future we will make sure to clarify and establish clear expectations before launching a project/action item.
2. We gave too short of a turnaround time for feedback and made board members feel rushed. We also did not properly acknowledge the feedback that *was* given and also made the mistake of assuming the feedback was an automatic approval of the project as-is.
In the future we will make sure to receive a clear YES from each member of the board who attended the specific meeting a project was created from, and we will provide a sufficient amount of time for said feedback to prevent the issue of rushing members. As adopted at our last meeting on November 16th, we will now maintain the following policy:
External communications need to be signed off by everyone PRESENT at the meeting + 48 hour turnaround for nonpresent members.
3. Thyme fully acknowledges the importance of providing context, and how the lack of context in the post resulted in certain questions/themes not landing well and causing harm to other users. Thyme apologizes for this oversight and will make sure to take care in considering the cultural history and implications of using specific language and ideas in the future.
Thank you all for your feedback and for the patience. I am hopeful that moving forward we'll be able to try another initiative like this out with everything we've learned in the process. A huge thank you to the BIPOC Board members as well for their work and labor, as well as their honesty in sorting out what went wrong at our last meeting. I hope to do a better job creating spaces for BIPOC users to feel welcome and heard in the future.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 2:25 PM on December 19 [1 favorite]
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posted by loup (staff) at 10:54 AM on November 14