A moderation log, general info page, and site update note March 20, 2025 4:34 PM Subscribe
Just posting several short notes since a page that we were creating was accidently made public a little early and discovered, so we're gonna talk about 3 specific things.
1. The site update is running a little behind as we have a volunteer member going over the P&L information to see if there's anything missing. We hope to post the entire March site update by the end of next week at the latest.
2. Frimble put together a moderation log , located at https://www.metafilter.com/recent-mod-actions.cfm.
It shows the official mod notes from around the site (those mod comments with the thin black line around them). The log covers 50 entries from the previous week.
This log is limited on features, but considered done in this state and no additional development is planned for it. This is because work is being done on a new site which will have a more robust feature set all around, including the moderation log.
3. We added a general information page to the FAQ (https://faq.metafilter.com/#358), which lists staff, committees and other basic information. It's designed to be easy for folks to get that info in one link, aka "at a glance". Additional suggestions for what that page could contain are welcome, feel free to post suggestions in the comments!
1. The site update is running a little behind as we have a volunteer member going over the P&L information to see if there's anything missing. We hope to post the entire March site update by the end of next week at the latest.
2. Frimble put together a moderation log , located at https://www.metafilter.com/recent-mod-actions.cfm.
It shows the official mod notes from around the site (those mod comments with the thin black line around them). The log covers 50 entries from the previous week.
This log is limited on features, but considered done in this state and no additional development is planned for it. This is because work is being done on a new site which will have a more robust feature set all around, including the moderation log.
3. We added a general information page to the FAQ (https://faq.metafilter.com/#358), which lists staff, committees and other basic information. It's designed to be easy for folks to get that info in one link, aka "at a glance". Additional suggestions for what that page could contain are welcome, feel free to post suggestions in the comments!
One comment deleted. Please avoid heavily editing your comments.
That's cold, man.
posted by Lemkin at 5:18 PM on March 20
That's cold, man.
posted by Lemkin at 5:18 PM on March 20
A moderation log is a log of moderation actions. It reflects moderation actions taken, "logs" them, if you will.
I don't understand why it would be limited to secret actions, i think that's just looking for things to complain about?
posted by Sebmojo at 5:23 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
I don't understand why it would be limited to secret actions, i think that's just looking for things to complain about?
posted by Sebmojo at 5:23 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
Well, the complaint is that it doesn't seem to include anything *but* what people could already see. It's perhaps the bare minimum that could be done on this version of the site, but it would have been nice if the announcement acknowledged that it doesn't really address any of the things people were hoping a log would help with.
posted by sagc at 5:29 PM on March 20 [14 favorites]
posted by sagc at 5:29 PM on March 20 [14 favorites]
Oh yeah, this is not as full featured as anyone would like (and what will happen with the new site), but it was relatively easy to pull together to have something resembling a public moderation log for the current site. This log wasn't built from scratch, but as I understand it as a non-developer, used code that was already in place on the backend.
Essentially it was "hey, that tracker we use on the backend is similar to a moderation log, in a basic way. Can we repurpose that code to something resembling a public mod log?"
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:01 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
Essentially it was "hey, that tracker we use on the backend is similar to a moderation log, in a basic way. Can we repurpose that code to something resembling a public mod log?"
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:01 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
Ok thanks but just to be crystal clear, if it doesn’t log actions that aren’t noted by mod comments as well, it’s not what people were generally asking for.
did you really say “thin black line” about mod comments bc I am dying over here if so
you know the line is grey
posted by donnagirl at 8:31 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
did you really say “thin black line” about mod comments bc I am dying over here if so
you know the line is grey
posted by donnagirl at 8:31 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
Well, at least it gives us an idea how many mod actions with notes take place per day (roughly 4.2 for this data). By my count, over 6.5 days, there were 10 deletions of comments (one or more), 2 deletions of posts, 2 warnings, 4 edits or tags added, a couple things added to Best of and the remainder MetaTalk comments.
Brandon, could you estimate what proportion of mod actions include a note versus not including a note?
posted by ssg at 8:31 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
Brandon, could you estimate what proportion of mod actions include a note versus not including a note?
posted by ssg at 8:31 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
did you really say “thin black line” about mod comments bc I am dying over here if so
you know the line is grey
The color of the lines depends on which theme you are using.
posted by St. Sorryass at 12:40 AM on March 21 [4 favorites]
you know the line is grey
The color of the lines depends on which theme you are using.
posted by St. Sorryass at 12:40 AM on March 21 [4 favorites]
This is progress and I appreciate that it's been done, to give users a better view of this aspect of what the mods are doing.
To build on this, either on the new site (when is the new site, actually?) or if it can be scraped from existing backend data, could there be a log of removed comments (every time, not just when a mod feels that a mod note is necessary), recording not the text or author of the comment, just when the comment was removed, from where in the thread the comment was removed (a mod note twenty comments later is not very helpful) and why the comment was removed?
posted by ngaiotonga at 3:30 AM on March 21 [7 favorites]
To build on this, either on the new site (when is the new site, actually?) or if it can be scraped from existing backend data, could there be a log of removed comments (every time, not just when a mod feels that a mod note is necessary), recording not the text or author of the comment, just when the comment was removed, from where in the thread the comment was removed (a mod note twenty comments later is not very helpful) and why the comment was removed?
posted by ngaiotonga at 3:30 AM on March 21 [7 favorites]
could you estimate what proportion of mod actions include a note versus not including a note?
Roughly 60% with notes, 40% without, but that's a very rough guess off the top of my head and I would not hold me to it.
To build on this, either on the new site (when is the new site, actually?) or if it can be scraped from existing backend data, could there be a log of...
There is currently no firm date on when the new site will be officially launched, but a more full featured mod log is planned for after the basic site is up. What that means is that kirkaracha, the developer working on the new site, is aiming to get most of the functionality of the current site up and running first, then start doing major additions. The moderation log for the new site is planned to be among those first additions, as I understand it.
As to the exact feature set of new site's mod log, it hasn't be definitely nailed down, so if there is a feature you'd like to see, I recommend adding it to the feature request form. (list of requests).
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 4:30 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
Roughly 60% with notes, 40% without, but that's a very rough guess off the top of my head and I would not hold me to it.
To build on this, either on the new site (when is the new site, actually?) or if it can be scraped from existing backend data, could there be a log of...
There is currently no firm date on when the new site will be officially launched, but a more full featured mod log is planned for after the basic site is up. What that means is that kirkaracha, the developer working on the new site, is aiming to get most of the functionality of the current site up and running first, then start doing major additions. The moderation log for the new site is planned to be among those first additions, as I understand it.
As to the exact feature set of new site's mod log, it hasn't be definitely nailed down, so if there is a feature you'd like to see, I recommend adding it to the feature request form. (list of requests).
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 4:30 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
I really appreciate the new FAQ item! The lists of staff and members of boards/bodies are good references. Thanks!
posted by brainwane at 5:56 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
posted by brainwane at 5:56 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
No problem, if people want to suggest other important information to go in there, just post it in the comments. Am leaving the link in the Site Nav bar so people can easily locate the info.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:32 AM on March 21
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:32 AM on March 21
I think this is a good start, but I do think it (understandably as we are between sites) misses the mark on what the original issue was, which was people being upset that comments or posts (? not sure) were disappearing without clarity on why or clear communication. I think some people expressed that they felt like they were going crazy. :)
posted by warriorqueen at 6:33 AM on March 21 [13 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 6:33 AM on March 21 [13 favorites]
I wish you well, but if there’s no planned delivery date and no agreed feature set, I don’t think you’ve got a project.
posted by Phanx at 7:01 AM on March 21 [6 favorites]
posted by Phanx at 7:01 AM on March 21 [6 favorites]
I think this is a good start...
Agree that this is a start, and obviously folks can disagree on whether it's a good one :)
Folks are welcomed to email us to see if a comment or post was removed and we'll answer them. But at this point, I think the mods have been trained to leave a note whenever they're doing that, so it shouldn't be an issue.
If folks DO see stuff being removed without a note being left, they absolutely should feel free to email us or start a MeTa. Folks have been leaving notes in the original thread saying they're starting a MeTa and I think that's ok, if not optimal.
Ultimately people want to feel as though they're being heard and that nothing is being mysteriously disappeared by the moderators. All I would ask is that people be civil and ask about incidents instead of immediately assuming bad intentions and yelling and accusing.
...if there’s no planned delivery date and no agreed feature set, I don’t think you’ve got a project.
Totally understand your point, but disagree. The feature set, at least for the first phase, is duplicating the feature set of the current site. Before we get close to that point we'll decide what the second phase will be. I'll ping kirkaracha to see if he has anything to add.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:10 AM on March 21
Agree that this is a start, and obviously folks can disagree on whether it's a good one :)
Folks are welcomed to email us to see if a comment or post was removed and we'll answer them. But at this point, I think the mods have been trained to leave a note whenever they're doing that, so it shouldn't be an issue.
If folks DO see stuff being removed without a note being left, they absolutely should feel free to email us or start a MeTa. Folks have been leaving notes in the original thread saying they're starting a MeTa and I think that's ok, if not optimal.
Ultimately people want to feel as though they're being heard and that nothing is being mysteriously disappeared by the moderators. All I would ask is that people be civil and ask about incidents instead of immediately assuming bad intentions and yelling and accusing.
...if there’s no planned delivery date and no agreed feature set, I don’t think you’ve got a project.
Totally understand your point, but disagree. The feature set, at least for the first phase, is duplicating the feature set of the current site. Before we get close to that point we'll decide what the second phase will be. I'll ping kirkaracha to see if he has anything to add.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:10 AM on March 21
If folks DO see stuff being removed without a note being left, they absolutely should feel free to email us or start a MeTa.
What would they be emailing you about? Not trying to be snarky, I just don't get it. I think the issue is that people don't know when something has been deleted, not that they want to have a conversation with the mods about it when they do notice.
posted by dusty potato at 8:02 AM on March 21 [16 favorites]
What would they be emailing you about? Not trying to be snarky, I just don't get it. I think the issue is that people don't know when something has been deleted, not that they want to have a conversation with the mods about it when they do notice.
posted by dusty potato at 8:02 AM on March 21 [16 favorites]
People do sometimes email us asking if a particular comment or post of theirs was actually removed by mods. We take a look at and figure out if that happened or if something happened on the user's end.
That's usually a couple of times a month, when people aren't sure if they clicked away before hitting the submit button.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:26 AM on March 21
That's usually a couple of times a month, when people aren't sure if they clicked away before hitting the submit button.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:26 AM on March 21
If a mod has the ability to recall whether some specific comment has been deleted, doesn't that mean they're... logging it somewhere?
posted by dusty potato at 8:28 AM on March 21 [8 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 8:28 AM on March 21 [8 favorites]
So at least a couple times a month the moderation here is so obfuscated it makes people doubt their own experiences. Cool.
posted by phunniemee at 8:34 AM on March 21 [14 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 8:34 AM on March 21 [14 favorites]
If a mod has the ability to recall whether some specific comment has been deleted, doesn't that mean they're... logging it somewhere?M
Yup!
Why isn't that in the mod log? My understanding is that it was decided that it would involve more development time on the current site and since we're transitioning from it and winding down developing new features on the current site.
In my perfect world, a more full featured mod log would have happened a year ago, at least.
So the current mod log was proposed as a compromise of sorts to get something out and do a full featured log for the new site.
Yes and no. I think here's a lot of legacy stuff going on where comments were silently deleted previously, people remember that and are operating from that premise, so they ask us if X happened.
Because it use to and it's a very reasonable question to ask if it's happening now. That's why I encourage people to ask, it's totally fine and hopefully, over time, that builds some trust.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:41 AM on March 21
Yup!
Why isn't that in the mod log? My understanding is that it was decided that it would involve more development time on the current site and since we're transitioning from it and winding down developing new features on the current site.
In my perfect world, a more full featured mod log would have happened a year ago, at least.
So the current mod log was proposed as a compromise of sorts to get something out and do a full featured log for the new site.
Yes and no. I think here's a lot of legacy stuff going on where comments were silently deleted previously, people remember that and are operating from that premise, so they ask us if X happened.
Because it use to and it's a very reasonable question to ask if it's happening now. That's why I encourage people to ask, it's totally fine and hopefully, over time, that builds some trust.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:41 AM on March 21
Folks are welcomed to email us to see if a comment or post was removed and we'll answer them. But at this point, I think the mods have been trained to leave a note whenever they're doing that, so it shouldn't be an issue.
So is it now a policy that mods should always leave a comment when they delete? People were asking for that for a while, it's great if that's true.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:41 AM on March 21 [3 favorites]
So is it now a policy that mods should always leave a comment when they delete? People were asking for that for a while, it's great if that's true.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:41 AM on March 21 [3 favorites]
Mod note: [So is it now a policy that mods should always leave a comment when they delete? People were asking for that for a while, it's great if that's true.
Yes, it is policy that a mod should always leave an official note when something is removed. If you see it not happening, please point that out by email at least!
Yes, some of us were a bit forgetful when we started doing that, but at this point it should be happening as the default, no exceptions. If it isn't, please report it!
(makes mental note to update FAQ entries that mention deleting by this evening)
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:34 AM on March 21 [9 favorites]
Yes, it is policy that a mod should always leave an official note when something is removed. If you see it not happening, please point that out by email at least!
Yes, some of us were a bit forgetful when we started doing that, but at this point it should be happening as the default, no exceptions. If it isn't, please report it!
(makes mental note to update FAQ entries that mention deleting by this evening)
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:34 AM on March 21 [9 favorites]
Thanks! That's great news!
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:38 AM on March 21 [3 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:38 AM on March 21 [3 favorites]
From a project management standpoint, the incomplete mod log linked in the post seems perfectly reasonable. It's a quick target of opportunity. Asking for further development on the old site to make its log more complete seems a little silly.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 10:30 AM on March 21 [4 favorites]
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 10:30 AM on March 21 [4 favorites]
I think this is a good start, but I do think it (understandably as we are between sites) misses the mark on what the original issue was, which was people being upset that comments or posts
Part of the challenge is that we don't have a requirements document, so possible features are scattered across MetaTalk threads. It's going to be difficult for everyone to be pleased with the outcome if there isn't a document describing what it should do. (This is also a general challenge in the rebuild.)
I used Chat GPT to write a functional spec (Google Doc; anyone with the link should be able to comment.) If anybody wants to be a stakeholder I can made them an editor.
(I'm responding to a comment by warriorqueen but I'm not directing this at them or anyone else personally.)
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 12:25 PM on March 21 [6 favorites]
Part of the challenge is that we don't have a requirements document, so possible features are scattered across MetaTalk threads. It's going to be difficult for everyone to be pleased with the outcome if there isn't a document describing what it should do. (This is also a general challenge in the rebuild.)
I used Chat GPT to write a functional spec (Google Doc; anyone with the link should be able to comment.) If anybody wants to be a stakeholder I can made them an editor.
(I'm responding to a comment by warriorqueen but I'm not directing this at them or anyone else personally.)
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 12:25 PM on March 21 [6 favorites]
In response to, "could you estimate what proportion of mod actions include a note versus not including a note?" BB wrote, "Roughly 60% with notes, 40% without, but that's a very rough guess off the top of my head and I would not hold me to it" in this thread at 4:30am my time.
In response to, "So is it now a policy that mods should always leave a comment when they delete?," BB wrote, "Yes, some of us were a bit forgetful when we started doing that, but at this point it should be happening as the default, no exceptions" at 9:34am my time, with no acknowledgement of the previous reply or explanation for why those two replies are so completely different.
This is fucking crazy-making.
posted by lapis at 12:44 PM on March 21 [21 favorites]
In response to, "So is it now a policy that mods should always leave a comment when they delete?," BB wrote, "Yes, some of us were a bit forgetful when we started doing that, but at this point it should be happening as the default, no exceptions" at 9:34am my time, with no acknowledgement of the previous reply or explanation for why those two replies are so completely different.
This is fucking crazy-making.
posted by lapis at 12:44 PM on March 21 [21 favorites]
...if there’s no planned delivery date and no agreed feature set, I don’t think you’ve got a project.
As Brandon mentioned, the feature set is either recreating or making modest improvements to the existing site. A delivery date is tough to determine for several reasons:
1) I'm the only person working on the site.*
2) I have a full-time job and work on the site evenings and weekends.
3) I'm a web developer, not a project manager.
4) There aren't any functional requirement documents.
I would break down the planned stages like this:
MVP Phase: An MVP that recreates the most-used features (signing up, logging in, making posts, making comments, and editing, flagging, and replying to comments. This is the current phase and we're close to finishing it.
Front-end feature-complete phase: Customize the form for posting to match each subsite's requirements e.g., uploading an audio file for podcast. Code forms for forgot password, change password, etc. Code profile pages. Search.
Admin phase: Coding out the admin backend section. (In progress.)
Mobile phase: Make the site work great on mobile. (The new site is built with responsive design but I've focused on desktop.)
Migration preparation: coding a service for importing the old site's data into the new site.
Migration planning: determine hosting and coordinating a date.
The site will be ready when the community decides it's ready.
* A couple of people have volunteered to help but I need to write some developer documentation first.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 12:56 PM on March 21 [7 favorites]
As Brandon mentioned, the feature set is either recreating or making modest improvements to the existing site. A delivery date is tough to determine for several reasons:
1) I'm the only person working on the site.*
2) I have a full-time job and work on the site evenings and weekends.
3) I'm a web developer, not a project manager.
4) There aren't any functional requirement documents.
I would break down the planned stages like this:
MVP Phase: An MVP that recreates the most-used features (signing up, logging in, making posts, making comments, and editing, flagging, and replying to comments. This is the current phase and we're close to finishing it.
Front-end feature-complete phase: Customize the form for posting to match each subsite's requirements e.g., uploading an audio file for podcast. Code forms for forgot password, change password, etc. Code profile pages. Search.
Admin phase: Coding out the admin backend section. (In progress.)
Mobile phase: Make the site work great on mobile. (The new site is built with responsive design but I've focused on desktop.)
Migration preparation: coding a service for importing the old site's data into the new site.
Migration planning: determine hosting and coordinating a date.
The site will be ready when the community decides it's ready.
* A couple of people have volunteered to help but I need to write some developer documentation first.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 12:56 PM on March 21 [7 favorites]
[…]no acknowledgement of the previous reply or explanation for why those two replies are so completely different.
This is fucking crazy-making.
It would be nice to get an answer from a mod, but a more charitable interpretation of the two comments would be that "mod actions" can include a number of things beyond just deletions, so there's no inherent contradiction between the two statements. The first comment that you link to was replying to a post breaking down the entries in the new moderation log into ~2 (commented on) deletions per day and a similar number of non-deletion mod comments (like noting edits, tagging, warnings, etc.). The estimated 40% of non-commented-on moderation actions could very well be more things in that second category—edits, tagging, non-public communication with members, etc. could be happening without associated notes in the threads, and without any contradiction to the second comment you linked.
posted by JiBB at 1:10 PM on March 21 [10 favorites]
This is fucking crazy-making.
It would be nice to get an answer from a mod, but a more charitable interpretation of the two comments would be that "mod actions" can include a number of things beyond just deletions, so there's no inherent contradiction between the two statements. The first comment that you link to was replying to a post breaking down the entries in the new moderation log into ~2 (commented on) deletions per day and a similar number of non-deletion mod comments (like noting edits, tagging, warnings, etc.). The estimated 40% of non-commented-on moderation actions could very well be more things in that second category—edits, tagging, non-public communication with members, etc. could be happening without associated notes in the threads, and without any contradiction to the second comment you linked.
posted by JiBB at 1:10 PM on March 21 [10 favorites]
Why did the previous owners move ahead with a massive rewrite without providing any requirement documents to their contractor?
posted by bowbeacon at 1:44 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 1:44 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
(To be clear, I think kirkaracha is doing a pretty darn good job with what he's been given)
posted by bowbeacon at 1:46 PM on March 21 [7 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 1:46 PM on March 21 [7 favorites]
It seems a little insane that the decision was made to build a new site without specs or requirements, with a single developer working in their off hours! How is that not a recipe for failure? It’s seriously impressive and to kirkaracha’s credit that it has gotten this far, but pulling back the curtain at this point, it seems closer to doom than to success. Maybe I misunderstand but this doesn’t seem like a reasonable way to proceed. Shouldn’t there at least be some kind of road map or rubric?
posted by rikschell at 1:50 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 1:50 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
"Refactor the current site into a more modern/maintainable system, keep all existing functionality. You have admin rights for the existing site, code and database."
As far as specs and requirements go, I'd much rather that than a document-- especially if I was doing 95% of the work solo on a shoestring budget.
posted by Static Vagabond at 2:24 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
As far as specs and requirements go, I'd much rather that than a document-- especially if I was doing 95% of the work solo on a shoestring budget.
posted by Static Vagabond at 2:24 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
As a (former) developer, I'd say that "match this existing, working system" is way more of a set of specs than I ever got, and that includes working for a company (SPSS) that actually believed in detailed written specs.
It sure looks like kirkaracha was brought on board, looked at the ColdFusion code, and barfed. It's a bold move to rewrite an entire system, but I've sure been brought in to look at an existing system and decided it had to be thrown out and redone.
posted by zompist at 2:47 PM on March 21 [9 favorites]
It sure looks like kirkaracha was brought on board, looked at the ColdFusion code, and barfed. It's a bold move to rewrite an entire system, but I've sure been brought in to look at an existing system and decided it had to be thrown out and redone.
posted by zompist at 2:47 PM on March 21 [9 favorites]
If anybody wants to be a stakeholder I can made them an editor.
I am happy and willing!
posted by Kybard at 2:59 PM on March 21
I am happy and willing!
posted by Kybard at 2:59 PM on March 21
I think the issue is that people don't know when something has been deleted
Perhaps one solution is to hire a child who sees dead comments?
posted by snofoam at 3:18 PM on March 21 [20 favorites]
Perhaps one solution is to hire a child who sees dead comments?
posted by snofoam at 3:18 PM on March 21 [20 favorites]
It sure looks like kirkaracha was brought on board, looked at the ColdFusion code, and barfed. It's a bold move to rewrite an entire system, but I've sure been brought in to look at an existing system and decided it had to be thrown out and redone.
That's exactly what happened (except I may not have physically barfed). The original code was built up over decades. It's not built to any best practices (which, to be fair, were largely defined later).
When a new subsite was set up, the code was duplicated from the original MetaFilter site. This makes it really difficult to make changes across subsites. My first encounter with the codebase was when I co-founded SportsFilter with some other members, and the code was a nightmare then.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 4:36 PM on March 21 [10 favorites]
That's exactly what happened (except I may not have physically barfed). The original code was built up over decades. It's not built to any best practices (which, to be fair, were largely defined later).
When a new subsite was set up, the code was duplicated from the original MetaFilter site. This makes it really difficult to make changes across subsites. My first encounter with the codebase was when I co-founded SportsFilter with some other members, and the code was a nightmare then.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 4:36 PM on March 21 [10 favorites]
In response to, "could you estimate what proportion of mod actions include a note versus not including a note?" BB wrote, "Roughly 60% with notes, 40% without, but that's a very rough guess off the top of my head and I would not hold me to it" in this thread at 4:30am my time.
In response to, "So is it now a policy that mods should always leave a comment when they delete?," BB wrote, "Yes, some of us were a bit forgetful when we started doing that, but at this point it should be happening as the default, no exceptions" at 9:34am my time, with no acknowledgement of the previous reply or explanation for why those two replies are so completely different.
As Jibb noted, those are two different things. Mods should always leave a note when deleting or editing anything, yes.
But mods do more than just edit or delete things. For instance, for the past hour or two, I've been wrangling with updating or creating FAQ entries related to the moderation log, most of which haven't necessitated a note at this point because the server on the current site is throwing errors, and preventing saving the entries after edits. So no notes on them just yet.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:57 PM on March 21 [3 favorites]
In response to, "So is it now a policy that mods should always leave a comment when they delete?," BB wrote, "Yes, some of us were a bit forgetful when we started doing that, but at this point it should be happening as the default, no exceptions" at 9:34am my time, with no acknowledgement of the previous reply or explanation for why those two replies are so completely different.
As Jibb noted, those are two different things. Mods should always leave a note when deleting or editing anything, yes.
But mods do more than just edit or delete things. For instance, for the past hour or two, I've been wrangling with updating or creating FAQ entries related to the moderation log, most of which haven't necessitated a note at this point because the server on the current site is throwing errors, and preventing saving the entries after edits. So no notes on them just yet.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:57 PM on March 21 [3 favorites]
Why did the previous owners move ahead with a massive rewrite without providing any requirement documents to their contractor?
Do you want the cynical answer?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:39 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
Do you want the cynical answer?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:39 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
Mods should always leave a note when deleting or editing anything, yes.
When it's literally removing an accidental duplicate like mine yesterday, I'd say it's perfectly fine not to do so.
posted by Candleman at 3:15 AM on March 22
When it's literally removing an accidental duplicate like mine yesterday, I'd say it's perfectly fine not to do so.
posted by Candleman at 3:15 AM on March 22
When it's literally removing an accidental duplicate like mine yesterday, I'd say it's perfectly fine not to do so.
I'm going to firmly disagree on that, at least for now, where we don't have a fully featured mod log. So it's better to leave a note that mod removed a comment, for whatever reason, so there's no question that mod action was taken.
Perhaps we have a full featured log, it might be ok to not leave as many notes. But I think leaving notes adds a human touch and makes moderation more visible, so notes should stay, IMO.
If anybody wants to be a stakeholder I can made them an editor.
I'd like to be a stakeholder on this too.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:46 AM on March 22 [7 favorites]
I'm going to firmly disagree on that, at least for now, where we don't have a fully featured mod log. So it's better to leave a note that mod removed a comment, for whatever reason, so there's no question that mod action was taken.
Perhaps we have a full featured log, it might be ok to not leave as many notes. But I think leaving notes adds a human touch and makes moderation more visible, so notes should stay, IMO.
If anybody wants to be a stakeholder I can made them an editor.
I'd like to be a stakeholder on this too.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:46 AM on March 22 [7 favorites]
The site update is running a little behind as we have a volunteer member going over the P&L information to see if there's anything missing.
It looks like the February P&L was posted a few days ago to the Google Drive.
Are the mistakes in previous P&L reports going to be corrected? The updated December 2024 report still says that Metafilter raised $148,120.20 in recurring donations that month. And has it been confirmed that recurring donations really dropped to $10,722.74 in January 2025, as it says in the January 2025 P&L?
posted by bunton at 7:58 AM on March 22 [1 favorite]
It looks like the February P&L was posted a few days ago to the Google Drive.
Are the mistakes in previous P&L reports going to be corrected? The updated December 2024 report still says that Metafilter raised $148,120.20 in recurring donations that month. And has it been confirmed that recurring donations really dropped to $10,722.74 in January 2025, as it says in the January 2025 P&L?
posted by bunton at 7:58 AM on March 22 [1 favorite]
I will propose that Metafilter moderators shouldn’t be stakeholders in the rewrite. They shouldn’t be deciders in this process.
posted by bowbeacon at 10:16 AM on March 22 [12 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 10:16 AM on March 22 [12 favorites]
Kybard volunteered to be a stakeholder, I made them an editor. If anyone else wants to be a stakeholder, please send me a MeMail.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 10:23 AM on March 22 [2 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 10:23 AM on March 22 [2 favorites]
I will propose that Metafilter moderators shouldn’t be stakeholders in the rewrite
I don't endorse this proposal. It's their site, too.
posted by kbanas at 11:49 AM on March 22 [8 favorites]
I don't endorse this proposal. It's their site, too.
posted by kbanas at 11:49 AM on March 22 [8 favorites]
Are the mistakes in previous P&L reports going to be corrected?
Have sent this and your other questions to the Interim Board.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:58 AM on March 22
Have sent this and your other questions to the Interim Board.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:58 AM on March 22
I would prefer mods not be given extra duties as stakeholders given their repeated assertions that there isn’t time for their core job duties. I also believe it’s good to have some aspects of the site that operate without the influence of the same few people. Please don’t make mods editors of this project
posted by donnagirl at 1:25 PM on March 22 [23 favorites]
posted by donnagirl at 1:25 PM on March 22 [23 favorites]
I would prefer mods not be given extra duties as stakeholders given their repeated assertions that there isn’t time for their core job duties.
This is a very good point.
posted by CtrlAltD at 2:44 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
This is a very good point.
posted by CtrlAltD at 2:44 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
> I will propose that Metafilter moderators shouldn’t be stakeholders in the rewrite. They shouldn’t be deciders in this process.
Especially when they're already going out of scope in the google document, in my view:
- "Every action should have a mandatory dialog box for the moderator to explain why an action was taken."
- "If a user’s comment is edited, deleted, or if they are issued a timeout, they should receive a notification." (agree!)
These additions by Brandon (I think) relate to the mod back-end in general. They will have lots of opportunity to suggest improvements to mod tools, but this document is NOT that. (Right?) That is part of kirkaracha's planning above, under "Admin phase: Coding out the admin backend section".
The LOG is supposed to be the user-facing thing that helps us understand how the mod tools have been used, which is why it would be great if only users did the first pass. (Edit: I grant that certain aspects of the mod tool set or changes to same may become part of the mod log, like "deletion reason".)
There is a thing that happens in online communities where people with more power "chime in early" on everything. Regular people who aren't in the hierarchy may get discouraged from trying to contribute something new when people with more power show up immediately and start opinionating at the same time. Quite often, people with less power don't want to be in conflict with those in the hierachy, or even appear to be in conflict, so however much community brainstorming and volunteering (etc) might have happened... does not happen. So for example I am not thinking of asking to work on this spec any more. It would have been a good task for one regular volunteer (and there already was one!).
posted by sylvanshine at 3:18 PM on March 22 [10 favorites]
Especially when they're already going out of scope in the google document, in my view:
- "Every action should have a mandatory dialog box for the moderator to explain why an action was taken."
- "If a user’s comment is edited, deleted, or if they are issued a timeout, they should receive a notification." (agree!)
These additions by Brandon (I think) relate to the mod back-end in general. They will have lots of opportunity to suggest improvements to mod tools, but this document is NOT that. (Right?) That is part of kirkaracha's planning above, under "Admin phase: Coding out the admin backend section".
The LOG is supposed to be the user-facing thing that helps us understand how the mod tools have been used, which is why it would be great if only users did the first pass. (Edit: I grant that certain aspects of the mod tool set or changes to same may become part of the mod log, like "deletion reason".)
There is a thing that happens in online communities where people with more power "chime in early" on everything. Regular people who aren't in the hierarchy may get discouraged from trying to contribute something new when people with more power show up immediately and start opinionating at the same time. Quite often, people with less power don't want to be in conflict with those in the hierachy, or even appear to be in conflict, so however much community brainstorming and volunteering (etc) might have happened... does not happen. So for example I am not thinking of asking to work on this spec any more. It would have been a good task for one regular volunteer (and there already was one!).
posted by sylvanshine at 3:18 PM on March 22 [10 favorites]
What does being a stakeholder in the rewrite mean?
posted by creatrixtiara at 6:52 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
posted by creatrixtiara at 6:52 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
I believe a vested interest in a project or activity when the new site is on line.
unless it's a person on the other end of a theodolite in an American Western movie.
posted by clavdivs at 7:05 PM on March 22
unless it's a person on the other end of a theodolite in an American Western movie.
posted by clavdivs at 7:05 PM on March 22
I get what stakeholders mean in general, I'm just not sure what that entails in terms of the mod log specifically. Do we work on developing the log? Do we get updates on the log development? Do we test the log?
Technically all of us are stakeholders (as Mefi members/users) but here it seems to refer to some specific task.
posted by creatrixtiara at 7:45 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
Technically all of us are stakeholders (as Mefi members/users) but here it seems to refer to some specific task.
posted by creatrixtiara at 7:45 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
So just editing the spec doc then? Nothing else?
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:11 PM on March 22
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:11 PM on March 22
The info page needs to clarify what the years mean by someone's name. It looks like those dates mean the year that person started their MeFi job. But that's just an educated guess.
posted by NotLost at 9:22 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
posted by NotLost at 9:22 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
creatrixtiara: I believe kirkaracha meant he'd give people access to the codebase? But i've completely lost track of the conversation at this point.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:44 PM on March 22
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:44 PM on March 22
Mod note: The info page needs to clarify what the years mean by someone's name.
Done and have added the link to the functional spec to that page.
I'm taking stakeholder in this instance to apply specifically to just that document, i.e. people who can go in to edit and manage it and be responsible for coordinating with kirkaracha about what feature list is and what order said features are implemented.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:58 PM on March 22
Done and have added the link to the functional spec to that page.
I'm taking stakeholder in this instance to apply specifically to just that document, i.e. people who can go in to edit and manage it and be responsible for coordinating with kirkaracha about what feature list is and what order said features are implemented.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:58 PM on March 22
people who can go in to edit and manage it and be responsible for coordinating with kirkaracha about what feature list is and what order said features are implemented.
In that case, I definitely don't think mods should be involved in this. Do it as part of your (paid) job and allow others to get involved and have their voices be heard without mods sticking their oars in.
posted by fight or flight at 3:25 AM on March 23 [6 favorites]
In that case, I definitely don't think mods should be involved in this. Do it as part of your (paid) job and allow others to get involved and have their voices be heard without mods sticking their oars in.
posted by fight or flight at 3:25 AM on March 23 [6 favorites]
people who can go in to edit and manage it and be responsible for coordinating with kirkaracha about what feature list is and what order said features are implemented.
This take affirms my belief that mods shouldn’t be stakeholders. Brandon, addressing you directly: mods aren’t MetaFilter owners or kings or better than everyone else. You need to stop taking up space on committees and with projects and allow someone else to get involved without having to work directly with you. Other people’s voices need to be heard.
posted by donnagirl at 5:57 AM on March 23 [13 favorites]
This take affirms my belief that mods shouldn’t be stakeholders. Brandon, addressing you directly: mods aren’t MetaFilter owners or kings or better than everyone else. You need to stop taking up space on committees and with projects and allow someone else to get involved without having to work directly with you. Other people’s voices need to be heard.
posted by donnagirl at 5:57 AM on March 23 [13 favorites]
This project needs a dedicated project manager, preferably one with software project management experience, ideally one that isn't also a mod but who can be read into all the back-end mod tool requirements. This is something I suggest the interim board take on - find a volunteer (and a backup volunteer) and make sure they have the access they need.
It's not fair to kirkaracha to be doing this with raw MetaTalk input (even filtered through a request form) and it's not a great idea for it to be going entirely through the mod team, too. This needs someone who can work with Kirk to figure out time and resource requirements, and ideally someone who can devote some time to thinking about user experience flow and ways to sensibly collect community feedback from more than just the people who read MetaTalk.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 6:41 AM on March 23 [28 favorites]
It's not fair to kirkaracha to be doing this with raw MetaTalk input (even filtered through a request form) and it's not a great idea for it to be going entirely through the mod team, too. This needs someone who can work with Kirk to figure out time and resource requirements, and ideally someone who can devote some time to thinking about user experience flow and ways to sensibly collect community feedback from more than just the people who read MetaTalk.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 6:41 AM on March 23 [28 favorites]
yeah if I'm being honest my volunteering here was with the intention/expectation of working at least to some degree as a project manager at least in this limited scope, reducing the cacophony of inputs to something more focused and clear. the document now being smothered in suggestions and apparent scope creep does not help.
like: who is supposed to be accepting those suggestions? if it's kirk, then this process has just created more work, more voices and opinions to be filtered and contextualized and decided upon. it's the opposite of what a functional requirements document is supposed to do, i.e. map out for the developer a checklist of base requirements from which they can assess whether they've built a proper MVP upon which further iteration can be done.
a functional requirements doc is not supposed to be something the developer has to approve; that's backwards. it only even tracks as something possible here because there's a void where the approver is supposed to exist in this process
posted by Kybard at 7:03 AM on March 23 [20 favorites]
like: who is supposed to be accepting those suggestions? if it's kirk, then this process has just created more work, more voices and opinions to be filtered and contextualized and decided upon. it's the opposite of what a functional requirements document is supposed to do, i.e. map out for the developer a checklist of base requirements from which they can assess whether they've built a proper MVP upon which further iteration can be done.
a functional requirements doc is not supposed to be something the developer has to approve; that's backwards. it only even tracks as something possible here because there's a void where the approver is supposed to exist in this process
posted by Kybard at 7:03 AM on March 23 [20 favorites]
CAUTION!
RAW METATALK
NOT SAFE FOR
HUMAN DIGESTIONSposted by lucidium at 7:13 AM on March 23 [5 favorites]
The word for this job isn't as much "project manager" as it is "product manager" - a project manager's job is usually more about cat herding and managing dependencies, not about figuring out what the project should even be, what problem it's trying to solve and how best to achieve that.
posted by quacks like a duck at 7:15 AM on March 23 [4 favorites]
posted by quacks like a duck at 7:15 AM on March 23 [4 favorites]
in my career I've seen those titles used interchangeably (mostly because digital strategy can be a messy business) but you're right quacks, we're looking for a product manager
posted by Kybard at 7:26 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
posted by Kybard at 7:26 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
I think in this case the distinction is fairly important, because of the absence of any other leadership to drive a clear and coherent direction. Anyone who gets into this needs to have some real confidence in their own ability to provide that leadership without further direction, not just abdicate everything to the crowd or throw their hands up for the lack of focus.
What would success look like? What outcomes will tell us we've done the right thing? Are there unwanted side effects that we want to avoid? Those are the kind of questions that a good product manager would ask before diving into the nitty gritty of sifting requirements or writing specifications. And they'd understand that design isn't only about technology but about the culture and process surrounding it.
posted by quacks like a duck at 7:58 AM on March 23 [4 favorites]
What would success look like? What outcomes will tell us we've done the right thing? Are there unwanted side effects that we want to avoid? Those are the kind of questions that a good product manager would ask before diving into the nitty gritty of sifting requirements or writing specifications. And they'd understand that design isn't only about technology but about the culture and process surrounding it.
posted by quacks like a duck at 7:58 AM on March 23 [4 favorites]
After a week, deletions and mod notes drop off the new mod log. So I threw together a Mefi mod log archive. This has the same content — but is archived forever, tagged by site and mod, and there are RSS feeds (linked in footer). We check for new mod actions roughly every 10 minutes.
posted by Klipspringer at 8:37 AM on March 23 [17 favorites]
posted by Klipspringer at 8:37 AM on March 23 [17 favorites]
Agree in general that we don’t want to spend too much time on this interim product (for which: thank you!) but I do wonder why the log isn’t an archive. I would think persistence would be a feature we’d want. Hopefully this is just a side effect of whatever “good enough” solution the team implemented to tide us over and isn’t a design choice.
posted by eirias at 9:08 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
posted by eirias at 9:08 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
Thank you for the update! I am especially happy to hear that someone else is going over the financials before publishing.
Moderation log:
1. Why only 50 comments and why only the last 7 days? I'm hoping this is more a proof of concept rather than what we will see in the future?
2. At the time of this writing, 23 mod comments are from Brandon Blatcher and three from other mods. Is BB working the hours that most need moderation? Are others not commenting their deletions? Do others listed under Mods not really moderate? (My understanding is taz is on hiatus, so that would skew numbers as she seemed to leave mod notes way more often than others.)
New FAQ entry:
1. Why is loup listed as "started 2020" where TravelingThyme is listed as starting "June 2020". Those hirings were both announced at the same time.
BIPOC:
1.I'll cross-post to the BIPOC committee thread, but... BIPOC committee is down to three members? One of them still being an employee? Another employee called on "as needed?" So the BIPOC committee now has 33% - 50% staff representation at any given time? Maybe I am misremembering, but I thought the BIPOC committee was supposed to be an advisory committee to let staff know when they are failing the BIPOC community? That would seem pretty hard to do with so much staff on the committee.
2. Are 2 (or, generously 4) people really enough to represent BIPOC to make substantial changes to Metafilter? Has there been any substantial recruitment efforts to bring that committee back up to size? If so, why is it so low? If not, why not?
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 9:25 AM on March 23 [8 favorites]
Moderation log:
1. Why only 50 comments and why only the last 7 days? I'm hoping this is more a proof of concept rather than what we will see in the future?
2. At the time of this writing, 23 mod comments are from Brandon Blatcher and three from other mods. Is BB working the hours that most need moderation? Are others not commenting their deletions? Do others listed under Mods not really moderate? (My understanding is taz is on hiatus, so that would skew numbers as she seemed to leave mod notes way more often than others.)
New FAQ entry:
1. Why is loup listed as "started 2020" where TravelingThyme is listed as starting "June 2020". Those hirings were both announced at the same time.
BIPOC:
1.I'll cross-post to the BIPOC committee thread, but... BIPOC committee is down to three members? One of them still being an employee? Another employee called on "as needed?" So the BIPOC committee now has 33% - 50% staff representation at any given time? Maybe I am misremembering, but I thought the BIPOC committee was supposed to be an advisory committee to let staff know when they are failing the BIPOC community? That would seem pretty hard to do with so much staff on the committee.
2. Are 2 (or, generously 4) people really enough to represent BIPOC to make substantial changes to Metafilter? Has there been any substantial recruitment efforts to bring that committee back up to size? If so, why is it so low? If not, why not?
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 9:25 AM on March 23 [8 favorites]
>After a week, deletions and mod notes drop off the new mod log.
*spews coffee out nose*
Wow. That is the opposite of the kind of transparency that members have long been calling for. Given that we'll be lucky if the new site goes live before the fall, if not the end of the year, what on earth was the justification for not permanently archiving this temporary mod log? Who decided it could only contain 7 days of information?
This is the kind of thing, Brandon and other mods, that continues to show a clear and casual disregard for the members of Metafilter.
posted by catspajamas at 10:04 AM on March 23 [5 favorites]
*spews coffee out nose*
Wow. That is the opposite of the kind of transparency that members have long been calling for. Given that we'll be lucky if the new site goes live before the fall, if not the end of the year, what on earth was the justification for not permanently archiving this temporary mod log? Who decided it could only contain 7 days of information?
This is the kind of thing, Brandon and other mods, that continues to show a clear and casual disregard for the members of Metafilter.
posted by catspajamas at 10:04 AM on March 23 [5 favorites]
I.e., we need to be able to see long-term patterns in this temporary mod log.
posted by catspajamas at 10:05 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
posted by catspajamas at 10:05 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
I believe kirkaracha meant he'd give people access to the codebase?
The codebase is open source and available on GitHub, which was announced in the January site update.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 11:20 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
The codebase is open source and available on GitHub, which was announced in the January site update.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 11:20 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
Let's stipulate that:
So I set up a Google doc to at least try to collect all of the moderation log requirements in one place. Anyone with the link can add notes, and stakeholders would make edits and finalize the document. I'm sorry, it doesn't seem to have helped that much. I'm going to focus on development and providing updates on that.
* Members that visit MetaTalk. I assume there are lots of people that don't.
This project needs a dedicated project manager, preferably one with software project management experience, ideally one that isn't also a mod but who can be read into all the back-end mod tool requirements. This is something I suggest the interim board take on - find a volunteer (and a backup volunteer) and make sure they have the access they need.
Having a a product manager would be great. It would also be great to have a UX designer and some coding help. Several people have made good user interface notes and I feel like I've been responsive including them.
I sent a message to the board endorsing the idea of them finding a product manager.
a functional requirements doc is not supposed to be something the developer has to approve
I have no desire or interest in approving anything. This is a community site and the requirements should be determined by the members.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 12:27 PM on March 23 [14 favorites]
- There's a general feeling among (some*) members that they have asked for changes and feel like their requests haven't gotten a response
- These requests are scattered across MetaTalk threads and not collected in one place
So I set up a Google doc to at least try to collect all of the moderation log requirements in one place. Anyone with the link can add notes, and stakeholders would make edits and finalize the document. I'm sorry, it doesn't seem to have helped that much. I'm going to focus on development and providing updates on that.
* Members that visit MetaTalk. I assume there are lots of people that don't.
This project needs a dedicated project manager, preferably one with software project management experience, ideally one that isn't also a mod but who can be read into all the back-end mod tool requirements. This is something I suggest the interim board take on - find a volunteer (and a backup volunteer) and make sure they have the access they need.
Having a a product manager would be great. It would also be great to have a UX designer and some coding help. Several people have made good user interface notes and I feel like I've been responsive including them.
I sent a message to the board endorsing the idea of them finding a product manager.
a functional requirements doc is not supposed to be something the developer has to approve
I have no desire or interest in approving anything. This is a community site and the requirements should be determined by the members.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 12:27 PM on March 23 [14 favorites]
This is a community site and the requirements should be determined by the members.
So how do we design a process that allows that to happen? I don't think the interim board can or should lead that process. Do we open MetaTalks for proposed new features? Do we appoint some kind of group of people to decide what gets built or not?
We definitely shouldn't just wait until there has been an election (which depends on the new site and we have no idea when the election will happen).
posted by ssg at 4:11 PM on March 23 [3 favorites]
So how do we design a process that allows that to happen? I don't think the interim board can or should lead that process. Do we open MetaTalks for proposed new features? Do we appoint some kind of group of people to decide what gets built or not?
We definitely shouldn't just wait until there has been an election (which depends on the new site and we have no idea when the election will happen).
posted by ssg at 4:11 PM on March 23 [3 favorites]
Do we open MetaTalks for proposed new features?
MetaTalk posts are famously good for developing community consensus, so that’s one option. Seriously, though, the idea of undertaking a site rewrite with no leadership or decision makers is totally insane and of course it won’t work even if the developer is good and earnestly engaged. The person that approved this project is mostly used to managing multimillion dollar projects with countless stakeholders, and totally didn’t approve a redevelopment of the site in order to distract from their ability to deliver a pet collage or an elaborate Halloween Gala. The foundation is likely to collapse before the new site is finished.
posted by snofoam at 7:07 PM on March 23 [13 favorites]
MetaTalk posts are famously good for developing community consensus, so that’s one option. Seriously, though, the idea of undertaking a site rewrite with no leadership or decision makers is totally insane and of course it won’t work even if the developer is good and earnestly engaged. The person that approved this project is mostly used to managing multimillion dollar projects with countless stakeholders, and totally didn’t approve a redevelopment of the site in order to distract from their ability to deliver a pet collage or an elaborate Halloween Gala. The foundation is likely to collapse before the new site is finished.
posted by snofoam at 7:07 PM on March 23 [13 favorites]
I am definitely on board for a Halloween Gala committee.
posted by clavdivs at 10:50 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 10:50 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
>Seriously, though, the idea of undertaking a site rewrite with no leadership or decision makers is totally insane and of course it won’t work even if the developer is good and earnestly engaged.
I don't think we're at that point yet. As it stands kirkaracha is creating the current site in php, not cold fusion, so that there can be a site rewrite with new features. Perfectly achievable and doesn't seem insane.
As the php version is being developed, suggestions for the rewrite are being collected. All fine.
The difficulty and worry comes with the significant changes to the ownership and organisational structure of Metafilter, which is happening concurrently.
It is the latter which urgently needs elucidation. It is the latter which will help determine how the rewrite will manifest.
posted by einekleine at 3:15 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
I don't think we're at that point yet. As it stands kirkaracha is creating the current site in php, not cold fusion, so that there can be a site rewrite with new features. Perfectly achievable and doesn't seem insane.
As the php version is being developed, suggestions for the rewrite are being collected. All fine.
The difficulty and worry comes with the significant changes to the ownership and organisational structure of Metafilter, which is happening concurrently.
It is the latter which urgently needs elucidation. It is the latter which will help determine how the rewrite will manifest.
posted by einekleine at 3:15 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Seriously, though, the idea of undertaking a site rewrite with no leadership or decision makers is totally insane and of course it won’t work even if the developer is good and earnestly engaged.
I think it can work up to the point where the new site has the basic features up and running.
After that point requirement/business decisions have to be made. In particular:
1. When does the switchover to the new site happen?
2. What features does the new site have to have before the switchover can happen?
3. What features, if any, should be implemented after the switchover happens?
E.g. do we need a full moderation log, FanFare IMDB integration, Recent Activity, Recent Comments, My MeFi, tags, MeMail to be implemented before the switchover?
It shouldn't be up to kirkaracha to make those decisions. What the decisions are, some people are not going to be happy with them, it's not fair to expect kirkaracha to take the heat.
So who is making those decisions? kirkaracha? loup? The mods collectively? The interim committee? Some kind of Metatalk vote, if so how?
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:43 AM on March 24 [4 favorites]
I think it can work up to the point where the new site has the basic features up and running.
After that point requirement/business decisions have to be made. In particular:
1. When does the switchover to the new site happen?
2. What features does the new site have to have before the switchover can happen?
3. What features, if any, should be implemented after the switchover happens?
E.g. do we need a full moderation log, FanFare IMDB integration, Recent Activity, Recent Comments, My MeFi, tags, MeMail to be implemented before the switchover?
It shouldn't be up to kirkaracha to make those decisions. What the decisions are, some people are not going to be happy with them, it's not fair to expect kirkaracha to take the heat.
So who is making those decisions? kirkaracha? loup? The mods collectively? The interim committee? Some kind of Metatalk vote, if so how?
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:43 AM on March 24 [4 favorites]
I request a direct response to these questions from a mod or board member:
1. Who decided the temporary mod log could only contain 7 days of information?
2. What was the rationale behind that decision?
3. Are the site's mods willing to change that decision so members can have a long-term record of their actions during the (likely months-long) period before we get a new site?
Thanks in advance.
posted by catspajamas at 3:48 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
1. Who decided the temporary mod log could only contain 7 days of information?
2. What was the rationale behind that decision?
3. Are the site's mods willing to change that decision so members can have a long-term record of their actions during the (likely months-long) period before we get a new site?
Thanks in advance.
posted by catspajamas at 3:48 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
It shouldn't be up to kirkaracha to make those decisions.
Agreed 100%. I appreciate very much kirkaracha's paid work on the new site when he can find time around his full-time job, sleep and having a life in general, but I do think the above comment should be particularly clear after the first version of the new site went up, and we saw that kirkaracha had been spending time on things like changing the color of front page post titles and text upon mouseover, and on hiding the timestamp and username of those posts unless you mouse over them - neither of which are features of the current site nor features I recall many (any?) members calling for in MeTa. If there was a project/product manager on this thing, and if I was that manager, I'd certainly have stopped any work on low-priority changes like that as soon as I found out about it.
Perhaps it was just a few minutes worth of code, and perhaps that code was kind of fun to play with. I don't know. But it's not what someone with limited time and essential functions of this community on permanent hold until they finish the task should have been working on at all.
posted by catspajamas at 4:04 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
Agreed 100%. I appreciate very much kirkaracha's paid work on the new site when he can find time around his full-time job, sleep and having a life in general, but I do think the above comment should be particularly clear after the first version of the new site went up, and we saw that kirkaracha had been spending time on things like changing the color of front page post titles and text upon mouseover, and on hiding the timestamp and username of those posts unless you mouse over them - neither of which are features of the current site nor features I recall many (any?) members calling for in MeTa. If there was a project/product manager on this thing, and if I was that manager, I'd certainly have stopped any work on low-priority changes like that as soon as I found out about it.
Perhaps it was just a few minutes worth of code, and perhaps that code was kind of fun to play with. I don't know. But it's not what someone with limited time and essential functions of this community on permanent hold until they finish the task should have been working on at all.
posted by catspajamas at 4:04 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
Have users have absorbed the reality of the "community-run" thing that MetaTalk has been pushing for for 10 years?
If you want there to be product management, then start volunteering your product management time and skills. If you want a decision-making process, design one. If you want leadership, join the board and provide it. There are only three board members (seven volunteered, five dropped out, one joined), so I imagine they could use your help. We are only getting a rebuilt site because one of us stepped up and is doing it. This is how it works now.
posted by Klipspringer at 4:04 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
If you want there to be product management, then start volunteering your product management time and skills. If you want a decision-making process, design one. If you want leadership, join the board and provide it. There are only three board members (seven volunteered, five dropped out, one joined), so I imagine they could use your help. We are only getting a rebuilt site because one of us stepped up and is doing it. This is how it works now.
posted by Klipspringer at 4:04 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
We posted in the same minute, Klipspringer, so I don’t think your comment was directed at me, but it's directly relevant to mine so I'll quickly reply:
After what happened with the Steering Committee, and after clear indications over the last year that very little will be done to hold inconsistent and unreliable mods accountable to members, finding people who trust the current site management enough to volunteer at this point will be quite a chore.
My hat is doffed to those who take that on. They're better members of this community than I am.
posted by catspajamas at 4:14 AM on March 24 [4 favorites]
After what happened with the Steering Committee, and after clear indications over the last year that very little will be done to hold inconsistent and unreliable mods accountable to members, finding people who trust the current site management enough to volunteer at this point will be quite a chore.
My hat is doffed to those who take that on. They're better members of this community than I am.
posted by catspajamas at 4:14 AM on March 24 [4 favorites]
The feature set, at least for the first phase, is duplicating the feature set of the current site.
I think you still need to document what those features currently are and get agreement about it. That may look like common sense but the process is actually non-trivial and I believe it is likely to throw up unexpected differences of opinion about what the features of the current site actually are. If you proceed without doing that, there is, imho, a high risk that features that are important to some users will be left out.
It’s only fair to acknowledge that I have virtually no idea of the background here, so apologies if I am misunderstanding what’s going on.
posted by Phanx at 4:26 AM on March 24 [7 favorites]
I think you still need to document what those features currently are and get agreement about it. That may look like common sense but the process is actually non-trivial and I believe it is likely to throw up unexpected differences of opinion about what the features of the current site actually are. If you proceed without doing that, there is, imho, a high risk that features that are important to some users will be left out.
It’s only fair to acknowledge that I have virtually no idea of the background here, so apologies if I am misunderstanding what’s going on.
posted by Phanx at 4:26 AM on March 24 [7 favorites]
I think you still need to document what those features currently are and get agreement about it. That may look like common sense but the process is actually non-trivial and I believe it is likely to throw up unexpected differences of opinion about what the features of the current site actually are. If you proceed without doing that, there is, imho, a high risk that features that are important to some users will be left out.
I have now used up all of today's allotment of favorites on the comment above. Have a great Monday, everyone.
posted by catspajamas at 4:29 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
I have now used up all of today's allotment of favorites on the comment above. Have a great Monday, everyone.
posted by catspajamas at 4:29 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
We are only getting a rebuilt site because one of us stepped up and is doing it. This is how it works now.
No, someone was hired by a lame-duck administrator and their absentee business manager with no prior public discussion. This wasn’t a community driven volunteer decision at all.
posted by bowbeacon at 4:41 AM on March 24 [14 favorites]
No, someone was hired by a lame-duck administrator and their absentee business manager with no prior public discussion. This wasn’t a community driven volunteer decision at all.
posted by bowbeacon at 4:41 AM on March 24 [14 favorites]
I request a direct response to these questions from a mod or board member:
1. Who decided the temporary mod log could only contain 7 days of information?
2. What was the rationale behind that decision?
3. Are the site's mods willing to change that decision so members can have a long-term record of their actions during the (likely months-long) period before we get a new site?
Thanks in advance.
It seemed to me from reading this thread that the only reason we have any kind of mod log on the current site is because frimble could steal existing backend functionality and repurpose it to that end.
I assume it's likely seven days because that's a limitation of the existing processes used create it. Obviously I could be wrong.
posted by kbanas at 5:23 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
1. Who decided the temporary mod log could only contain 7 days of information?
2. What was the rationale behind that decision?
3. Are the site's mods willing to change that decision so members can have a long-term record of their actions during the (likely months-long) period before we get a new site?
Thanks in advance.
It seemed to me from reading this thread that the only reason we have any kind of mod log on the current site is because frimble could steal existing backend functionality and repurpose it to that end.
I assume it's likely seven days because that's a limitation of the existing processes used create it. Obviously I could be wrong.
posted by kbanas at 5:23 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
It definitely looks like a quick and dirty filter over the internal log, yeah.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 5:37 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 5:37 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
I don't think we're at that point yet. As it stands kirkaracha is creating the current site in php, not cold fusion, so that there can be a site rewrite with new features. Perfectly achievable and doesn't seem insane.
But why. As far as I can tell nobody particularly asked for the site to be rebuilt and there wasn't any big problem, so I don't really understand why it's even a thing that finite staff and volunteer resources are being spent on.
No, someone was hired by a lame-duck administrator and their absentee business manager with no prior public discussion. This wasn’t a community driven volunteer decision at all.
Right?
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:09 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
But why. As far as I can tell nobody particularly asked for the site to be rebuilt and there wasn't any big problem, so I don't really understand why it's even a thing that finite staff and volunteer resources are being spent on.
No, someone was hired by a lame-duck administrator and their absentee business manager with no prior public discussion. This wasn’t a community driven volunteer decision at all.
Right?
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:09 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
It's been increasingly hard to do anything with the current codebase, and getting it to a point where feature requests are plausible to complete isn't a terrible idea.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 6:10 AM on March 24 [7 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 6:10 AM on March 24 [7 favorites]
I respectfully disagree. It was, and continues to be, a terrible idea to prioritize a redo of the technical aspects of the site when everyone was actually asking for staff to focus on helping the site to transition to a non-profit with a reasonable level of transparency and democratic, community-driven decisionmaking.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:19 AM on March 24 [8 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:19 AM on March 24 [8 favorites]
I think people didn't start asking for the staff to help with the transition until maybe six months after the site rebuild started. People have been asking for new features for years, and my understanding is that the current site is hard to change.
posted by NotLost at 6:23 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
posted by NotLost at 6:23 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
> Have users have absorbed the reality of the "community-run" thing that MetaTalk has been pushing for for 10 years?
The "dog that caught the car" admonition would ring truer if there hadn't been a previous period where the dog caught the car and actually like drove it pretty good for a while there.
posted by lucidium at 6:26 AM on March 24 [4 favorites]
The "dog that caught the car" admonition would ring truer if there hadn't been a previous period where the dog caught the car and actually like drove it pretty good for a while there.
posted by lucidium at 6:26 AM on March 24 [4 favorites]
It's been increasingly hard to do anything with the current codebase, and getting it to a point where feature requests are plausible to complete isn't a terrible idea.
There are several possibilities though, assuming that new features are the priority:
I suspect the people making the decision weren't aware of the trade-offs, or even the available options.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:46 AM on March 24 [7 favorites]
There are several possibilities though, assuming that new features are the priority:
- Complete rewrite of the site
- Customize an existing off-the-shelf message board system
- Refactor the existing code so that it's easier to work on.
I suspect the people making the decision weren't aware of the trade-offs, or even the available options.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:46 AM on March 24 [7 favorites]
If you want there to be product management, then start volunteering your product management time and skills.
As someone doing this currently, it is actually pretty hard to set up volunteering here because there are almost no structures and support, besides guest access to a single channel on a Slack. I'm not complaining, it's just kind of - wow when you realize there's just not a toolset or a culture of communication or anything. (Also impacted by the implosion of my personal life, which I'm allllmost on the other side of.)
In any case, a volunteer product manager role would be pretty hard because you would need to know things like:
a. what's the budget
b. what are the priorities
c. how are decisions made
Like, I'm a big fan of just do it, but there are some significant challenges in that approach.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:48 AM on March 24 [18 favorites]
As someone doing this currently, it is actually pretty hard to set up volunteering here because there are almost no structures and support, besides guest access to a single channel on a Slack. I'm not complaining, it's just kind of - wow when you realize there's just not a toolset or a culture of communication or anything. (Also impacted by the implosion of my personal life, which I'm allllmost on the other side of.)
In any case, a volunteer product manager role would be pretty hard because you would need to know things like:
a. what's the budget
b. what are the priorities
c. how are decisions made
Like, I'm a big fan of just do it, but there are some significant challenges in that approach.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:48 AM on March 24 [18 favorites]
There was no discussion of what the best option was. Or what the trade-offs were between upfront costs, maintenance costs, a familiar UI versus an accessible site, free off-the-shelf features versus custom coded Metafilter features.
Yeah I'm on record that I really, really think a forum software solution should have been examined, like I said that at the first post. The costs of the custom code, either in money or in volunteer hours and coordination (recognizing that going more open source on a platform that's much more modern will help in that effort) are really huge - especially because things will continue to change and involve.
I was pretty disappointed at that decision BUT it's been made, and kirkaracha is the unicorn amazing find for that so luck held over other factors.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:52 AM on March 24 [10 favorites]
Yeah I'm on record that I really, really think a forum software solution should have been examined, like I said that at the first post. The costs of the custom code, either in money or in volunteer hours and coordination (recognizing that going more open source on a platform that's much more modern will help in that effort) are really huge - especially because things will continue to change and involve.
I was pretty disappointed at that decision BUT it's been made, and kirkaracha is the unicorn amazing find for that so luck held over other factors.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:52 AM on March 24 [10 favorites]
I have no tech or coding background so I can't speak specifically to any of those aspects. I can comfortably say, though, that "feature requests" are not a priority for me and I don't think they're particularly a priority for anyone who isn't on the Metafilter payroll.
I'm sure the 20-year-old code that Metafilter runs on is a pain in the ass to maintain and needs to be addressed at some point. But it's not like, a crisis. The core of the site is people being able to post interesting stuff and have interesting conversations about them as a community. That can and does happen with the current setup.
What we have been saying, for YEARS now, is that we want a transparent and democratic process for making decisions about how the site is to be run. That is the central request which has consistently been kicked down the road.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:54 AM on March 24 [8 favorites]
I'm sure the 20-year-old code that Metafilter runs on is a pain in the ass to maintain and needs to be addressed at some point. But it's not like, a crisis. The core of the site is people being able to post interesting stuff and have interesting conversations about them as a community. That can and does happen with the current setup.
What we have been saying, for YEARS now, is that we want a transparent and democratic process for making decisions about how the site is to be run. That is the central request which has consistently been kicked down the road.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:54 AM on March 24 [8 favorites]
If you want leadership, join the board and provide it.
Per the recent thread, elections to the board are on hold indefinitely, because the president of the interim board does not want to not hold them until (a) they can be be held on the new site and (b) they have come up with a process to ensure that nobody who has the wrong opinions can vote.
If there's some other process by which people can join the board in advance of those elections, we've not been made aware of it.
posted by automatronic at 6:54 AM on March 24 [18 favorites]
Per the recent thread, elections to the board are on hold indefinitely, because the president of the interim board does not want to not hold them until (a) they can be be held on the new site and (b) they have come up with a process to ensure that nobody who has the wrong opinions can vote.
If there's some other process by which people can join the board in advance of those elections, we've not been made aware of it.
posted by automatronic at 6:54 AM on March 24 [18 favorites]
If there's some other process by which people can join the board in advance of those elections
There weren't any elections to the current board. People just volunteered. After the initial call, other users joined the board by just .. doing so. At one point the board had 13 members, now 3. Elections aren't what's stopping anyone.
Similarly for rebuilding the site, that is only happening because a long-time site member decided to take on the task in evenings and weekends. I don't remember anyone else ever offering to do it.
The idea that coding on the new site is the thing that's stopping progress on democratic structures is ridiculous.
it is actually pretty hard to set up volunteering here because there are almost no structures and support
I mean, I agree, it's just now the community's problem to put those structures in place. Maybe some of the users who spent years pushing the site toward community ownership could help with that.
posted by Klipspringer at 7:54 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
There weren't any elections to the current board. People just volunteered. After the initial call, other users joined the board by just .. doing so. At one point the board had 13 members, now 3. Elections aren't what's stopping anyone.
Similarly for rebuilding the site, that is only happening because a long-time site member decided to take on the task in evenings and weekends. I don't remember anyone else ever offering to do it.
The idea that coding on the new site is the thing that's stopping progress on democratic structures is ridiculous.
it is actually pretty hard to set up volunteering here because there are almost no structures and support
I mean, I agree, it's just now the community's problem to put those structures in place. Maybe some of the users who spent years pushing the site toward community ownership could help with that.
posted by Klipspringer at 7:54 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
> What we have been saying, for YEARS now, is that we want a transparent and democratic process for making decisions about how the site is to be run. That is the central request which has consistently been kicked down the road.
Agree.
Whether we agree with the timing of the site redevelopment or not, resources have been committed to creating a working codebase. That process is already developing a sizeable list of possible features.
Alongside that the current site continues to function.
If it's to be a community run site then we need a governance timeline as a top priority.
This will need to have an idea of how communal decision making is achieved.
I would say this should be with the resources currently available, and not with a tech solution relying on the new site.
posted by einekleine at 7:57 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Agree.
Whether we agree with the timing of the site redevelopment or not, resources have been committed to creating a working codebase. That process is already developing a sizeable list of possible features.
Alongside that the current site continues to function.
If it's to be a community run site then we need a governance timeline as a top priority.
This will need to have an idea of how communal decision making is achieved.
I would say this should be with the resources currently available, and not with a tech solution relying on the new site.
posted by einekleine at 7:57 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
The idea that coding on the new site is the thing that's stopping progress on democratic structures is ridiculous.
It has been cited as the reason to wait for elections. It’s literally THE thing preventing democracy.
posted by bowbeacon at 7:58 AM on March 24 [9 favorites]
It has been cited as the reason to wait for elections. It’s literally THE thing preventing democracy.
posted by bowbeacon at 7:58 AM on March 24 [9 favorites]
As far as I can tell nobody particularly asked for the site to be rebuilt and there wasn't any big problem
People in MetaTalk have often asked for improvements to the site that are hard to do with the existing code base and will be easier to do with the new one. The current site is also on ColdFusion, which is a niche web server that limits our hosting options and limits the pool of developers with experience with the technology.
The new site is in PHP, which almost any web developer has experience with, and uses the Laravel web application framework, which is very well documented and the current most widely used PHP framework. PHP also gives us a lot more flexibility in hosting options.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 8:36 AM on March 24 [12 favorites]
People in MetaTalk have often asked for improvements to the site that are hard to do with the existing code base and will be easier to do with the new one. The current site is also on ColdFusion, which is a niche web server that limits our hosting options and limits the pool of developers with experience with the technology.
The new site is in PHP, which almost any web developer has experience with, and uses the Laravel web application framework, which is very well documented and the current most widely used PHP framework. PHP also gives us a lot more flexibility in hosting options.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 8:36 AM on March 24 [12 favorites]
If you want leadership, join the board and provide it.
You think the current board is going to take on more members? What leads you tho think this?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:38 AM on March 24 [3 favorites]
You think the current board is going to take on more members? What leads you tho think this?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:38 AM on March 24 [3 favorites]
The board having literally taken on several new members is a subtle clue that they've been open to taking on new members. Now that's cleared up, you're putting your name forward, right?
posted by Klipspringer at 8:47 AM on March 24
posted by Klipspringer at 8:47 AM on March 24
A new, stable, flexible, efficient, thrifty architecture for the site is obviously a tremendous benefit to the new site governance and will make their job much much easier.
Kirkaracha has stated numerous times his central goal is attempting to reproduce the existing site in this manner as he does not feel he has the authority to make unilateral changes to core design or UI features. He is collating a list of those changes until such time as there is authority to implement them.
But those changes will be massively easier to implement once the new site is running. I mean, massively easier to implement technically, because the food-fights over what any changes will look like are going to be epic once the new governance model is in place. The same people who harp on the length of time to change to a flag icon are already in here complaining about the site making a decision that will enable such changes to be simple and fast cross-site fixes.
tl;dr: thanks kirkaracha
posted by Rumple at 8:57 AM on March 24 [11 favorites]
Kirkaracha has stated numerous times his central goal is attempting to reproduce the existing site in this manner as he does not feel he has the authority to make unilateral changes to core design or UI features. He is collating a list of those changes until such time as there is authority to implement them.
But those changes will be massively easier to implement once the new site is running. I mean, massively easier to implement technically, because the food-fights over what any changes will look like are going to be epic once the new governance model is in place. The same people who harp on the length of time to change to a flag icon are already in here complaining about the site making a decision that will enable such changes to be simple and fast cross-site fixes.
tl;dr: thanks kirkaracha
posted by Rumple at 8:57 AM on March 24 [11 favorites]
The board having literally taken on several new members is a subtle clue that they've been open to taking on new members. Now that's cleared up, you're putting your name forward, right?
The board that owns metafilter (Rhaomi, 1Adam12, Gorgik) isn’t taking on new members. They’re waiting until the new site is complete and new bylaws are written before holding elections to bring in new members.
posted by bunton at 9:05 AM on March 24 [7 favorites]
The board that owns metafilter (Rhaomi, 1Adam12, Gorgik) isn’t taking on new members. They’re waiting until the new site is complete and new bylaws are written before holding elections to bring in new members.
posted by bunton at 9:05 AM on March 24 [7 favorites]
The board having literally taken on several new members is a subtle clue that they've been open to taking on new members. Now that's cleared up, you're putting your name forward, right?
There are 3 members right? when did we get more?
As for your second item I don't respond to passive aggression.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:06 AM on March 24 [3 favorites]
There are 3 members right? when did we get more?
As for your second item I don't respond to passive aggression.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:06 AM on March 24 [3 favorites]
There are three board members and several other volunteers who are assisting with a few things. There's one committee, the moderation oversight committee, also run by a volunteer (warriorqueen).
posted by Gorgik at 10:01 AM on March 24
posted by Gorgik at 10:01 AM on March 24
Also, Gorgik joined the board after the initial batch of board volunteers, before incorporation. Someone else had also joined after the initial batch, but she left before incorporation.
posted by NotLost at 10:11 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
posted by NotLost at 10:11 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
We are only getting a rebuilt site because one of us stepped up and is doing it.
It’s like the cookbook! Someone had the idea and was willing to do it. We know this process works, so let’s have a little faith here.
posted by snofoam at 10:26 AM on March 24 [3 favorites]
It’s like the cookbook! Someone had the idea and was willing to do it. We know this process works, so let’s have a little faith here.
posted by snofoam at 10:26 AM on March 24 [3 favorites]
The board having literally taken on several new members is a subtle clue that they've been open to taking on new members. Now that's cleared up, you're putting your name forward, right?
So a boyzone sleeper cell can hijack the foundation board just by volunteering?
posted by snofoam at 10:34 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
So a boyzone sleeper cell can hijack the foundation board just by volunteering?
posted by snofoam at 10:34 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
Sorry, missed the edit window:
We know this process, so let’s have little faith here.
But seriously, there won’t be any actual leadership until the new site is built, and even with a great developer we’ll never be able to finish the site and switch over without leadership. Surely some can see how this is a bit of a pickle.
posted by snofoam at 10:39 AM on March 24 [5 favorites]
We know this process, so let’s have little faith here.
But seriously, there won’t be any actual leadership until the new site is built, and even with a great developer we’ll never be able to finish the site and switch over without leadership. Surely some can see how this is a bit of a pickle.
posted by snofoam at 10:39 AM on March 24 [5 favorites]
A lot of people here are surprised and upset by the suggestion that a community-run site will require community members to actually run the site and solve its problems. This bodes well.
posted by Klipspringer at 10:50 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
posted by Klipspringer at 10:50 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
What are you talking about? Who are you arguing with, here?
posted by bowbeacon at 10:54 AM on March 24 [9 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 10:54 AM on March 24 [9 favorites]
I never voted for or wanted the site to be community-run. I don't remember being asked. It was a plan that was dumped in the lap of the ownership. I'd rather have the site be owned and run by someone who actually wants to run it and who is happy to be responsible and accountable for it. This whole "let the community run it" plan has been nothing but problems and pointless cyclical beucracy. Committees to elect committees ffs. Is it any surprise that nothing is being done, honestly?
posted by fight or flight at 10:55 AM on March 24 [26 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 10:55 AM on March 24 [26 favorites]
A lot of people here are surprised and upset by the suggestion that a community-run site will require community members to actually run the site and solve its problems.
Huh? we started with over 25 people on the mod committee, which has dropped off for perfectly normal reasons.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:06 AM on March 24 [3 favorites]
Huh? we started with over 25 people on the mod committee, which has dropped off for perfectly normal reasons.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:06 AM on March 24 [3 favorites]
Committees to elect committees ffs.
I regret that I have only one favorite to give. Your comment was excellent, fight or flight.
posted by kbanas at 11:09 AM on March 24
I regret that I have only one favorite to give. Your comment was excellent, fight or flight.
posted by kbanas at 11:09 AM on March 24
A lot of people here are surprised and upset by the suggestion that a community-run site will require community members to actually run the site and solve its problems
Can you point to some of these people. Because I don't see it.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 11:09 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Can you point to some of these people. Because I don't see it.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 11:09 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Hey, it's Brandon again, going to respond to questions about the simple mod log by first explaining how it came to be:
Me: hey, we should do the mod log that members have been asking for
Management (MM): we don't really have the resources to do that
Me: well, members are distrustful, so it would be good to show them that there isn't anything weird going on.
MM: yeah, but we don't have the resources
This occurs a few times until I the internal tracker we used is kinda like a log.
Me: Hey this tracker we use kinda works like a mod log, can we repurpose that to be a mod log? That way we're not starting from scratch and just adjusting a few things.
MM: ok, we can do that.
Some time passes due to frimble getting in an accident and being unable to work for a bit, then the transition happens and other things are made priority, coding wise.
Me: soooo, about the mod log?
MM: yep, we're finishing it up, here's an admin only look at it for now. we're not going to flesh it out, as resources are focused on developing the new site.
Me: hey members, here's a simple moderation log (SML)!
Members: Ok, cool, but why isn't this more full featured?!
Me: Focusing resources on new site.
Me thinking to myself: This could be more full featured and a lot of members will be disappointed and want more, which makes total sense, but this is at least at start and we can go from there.
For the record, I'm 100% behind doing a full featured moderation log. The one at lobster.rs has been mentioned a few times and I think that's a great goal to shoot for, with a few MeFi tweaks.
...but I do wonder why the log isn’t an archive...
Why only 50 comments and why only the last 7 days?
Unknown, my guess is that it was the simplest or easiest thing to do or queries the database the least, but I honestly don't know. Have posted that question on the Slack.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:12 AM on March 24
Me: hey, we should do the mod log that members have been asking for
Management (MM): we don't really have the resources to do that
Me: well, members are distrustful, so it would be good to show them that there isn't anything weird going on.
MM: yeah, but we don't have the resources
This occurs a few times until I the internal tracker we used is kinda like a log.
Me: Hey this tracker we use kinda works like a mod log, can we repurpose that to be a mod log? That way we're not starting from scratch and just adjusting a few things.
MM: ok, we can do that.
Some time passes due to frimble getting in an accident and being unable to work for a bit, then the transition happens and other things are made priority, coding wise.
Me: soooo, about the mod log?
MM: yep, we're finishing it up, here's an admin only look at it for now. we're not going to flesh it out, as resources are focused on developing the new site.
Me: hey members, here's a simple moderation log (SML)!
Members: Ok, cool, but why isn't this more full featured?!
Me: Focusing resources on new site.
Me thinking to myself: This could be more full featured and a lot of members will be disappointed and want more, which makes total sense, but this is at least at start and we can go from there.
For the record, I'm 100% behind doing a full featured moderation log. The one at lobster.rs has been mentioned a few times and I think that's a great goal to shoot for, with a few MeFi tweaks.
...but I do wonder why the log isn’t an archive...
Why only 50 comments and why only the last 7 days?
Unknown, my guess is that it was the simplest or easiest thing to do or queries the database the least, but I honestly don't know. Have posted that question on the Slack.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:12 AM on March 24
Also if anyone's starting a committee, MeMail me for the 411, I would do it completely differently next time, but only because I didn't foresee some issues.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:13 AM on March 24 [5 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 11:13 AM on March 24 [5 favorites]
MM is loup?
posted by sagc at 11:14 AM on March 24 [5 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:14 AM on March 24 [5 favorites]
Huh? we started with over 25 people on the mod committee, which has dropped off for perfectly normal reasons.
Hey warriorqueen, would you mind sharing with the community how this committee got going? I think it could be helpful to others who may be interested in volunteering, but aren't sure how to proceed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:14 AM on March 24
Hey warriorqueen, would you mind sharing with the community how this committee got going? I think it could be helpful to others who may be interested in volunteering, but aren't sure how to proceed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:14 AM on March 24
Management (MM): we don't really have the resources to do that
Who are you talking about here, Brandon? Who is "Management"? The board?
posted by fight or flight at 11:15 AM on March 24 [8 favorites]
Who are you talking about here, Brandon? Who is "Management"? The board?
posted by fight or flight at 11:15 AM on March 24 [8 favorites]
Jinx!
That's responding to warriorqueen's comment about the 411 for starting committees here at MeFi
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:15 AM on March 24
That's responding to warriorqueen's comment about the 411 for starting committees here at MeFi
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:15 AM on March 24
Sure, how the committee started:
I was talking to the board about helping out and they suggested moderation help. (I originally contacted them about elections, but really happy to help out however.)
I drafted a quick kind of scope, which is pretty much what you see here, as well as the post, and got the blessing from the board.
Then I posted (and I think this is key) on Ask, MetaFilter, Fanfare, and here for volunteers. I took everyone. Loup set us up a Slack. (We've had comms issues and I have a recommendation that once we're on the new site, we give committees private MetaFilter boards for discussions since that's the One Platform we know everyone uses. Not everyone wants their name visible, can access Discord/Slack/etc.)
From there we've got some good work! I have to pull together Friday once I'm through bringing up my quarter-mill web project and on route to Nashville but we're really close to being able to launch the process. Kybard is a rock star, and the committee is diligent. The road bumps are more than 50% on me and also related to how much time I have at home vs. work as there are tools I can't access from work consistently - I can only do mobile stuff and I cannot use organization brain, just responding brain, because well, work and my brain.
What I'd do differently:
- a bit more groundwork before starting. I think this is the MetaFilter original sin: wanting to give space for everyone's thoughts equally at the start, but then it results in a lack of clear activities for the group. We are getting there but it's a bit circuitous and of course communicating takes time. At first I didn't want to make declarative statements but now I have made some.
- SET UP THE COMMS FIRST and let people know they have to use those comms
- (we haven't done this) do some work on norms for the group - we all saw how it went down when one member went rogue, and that took some out of all of us
- once there's a bigger board, better reporting into the board; this is one of the things I'm going to catch up on
posted by warriorqueen at 11:23 AM on March 24 [11 favorites]
I was talking to the board about helping out and they suggested moderation help. (I originally contacted them about elections, but really happy to help out however.)
I drafted a quick kind of scope, which is pretty much what you see here, as well as the post, and got the blessing from the board.
Then I posted (and I think this is key) on Ask, MetaFilter, Fanfare, and here for volunteers. I took everyone. Loup set us up a Slack. (We've had comms issues and I have a recommendation that once we're on the new site, we give committees private MetaFilter boards for discussions since that's the One Platform we know everyone uses. Not everyone wants their name visible, can access Discord/Slack/etc.)
From there we've got some good work! I have to pull together Friday once I'm through bringing up my quarter-mill web project and on route to Nashville but we're really close to being able to launch the process. Kybard is a rock star, and the committee is diligent. The road bumps are more than 50% on me and also related to how much time I have at home vs. work as there are tools I can't access from work consistently - I can only do mobile stuff and I cannot use organization brain, just responding brain, because well, work and my brain.
What I'd do differently:
- a bit more groundwork before starting. I think this is the MetaFilter original sin: wanting to give space for everyone's thoughts equally at the start, but then it results in a lack of clear activities for the group. We are getting there but it's a bit circuitous and of course communicating takes time. At first I didn't want to make declarative statements but now I have made some.
- SET UP THE COMMS FIRST and let people know they have to use those comms
- (we haven't done this) do some work on norms for the group - we all saw how it went down when one member went rogue, and that took some out of all of us
- once there's a bigger board, better reporting into the board; this is one of the things I'm going to catch up on
posted by warriorqueen at 11:23 AM on March 24 [11 favorites]
Mod note: Oops, in trying to favorite warriorqueen's comment, I accidently removed it, for about 5-10 seconds. My apologies!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:25 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:25 AM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Who is management? #pleaseanswer
posted by bowbeacon at 11:40 AM on March 24 [5 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 11:40 AM on March 24 [5 favorites]
I have a recommendation that once we're on the new site, we give committees private MetaFilter boards for discussions since that's the One Platform we know everyone uses
Please add that to the feature request form. (list of requests)
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 11:46 AM on March 24 [4 favorites]
Please add that to the feature request form. (list of requests)
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 11:46 AM on March 24 [4 favorites]
Please add that to the feature request form. (list of requests)
Eek see here's the point where I'm like "but wouldn't the board want to think that through before it goes on the list?" But I can put it on the list.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:48 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
Eek see here's the point where I'm like "but wouldn't the board want to think that through before it goes on the list?" But I can put it on the list.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:48 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
Who is management?
The mod log project started under previous management and continued under current management until its release.
Understandably, people probably want a more specific answer, but it's best to move forward and decide how and when we get to a more full featured moderation log, IMO.
Eek see here's the point where I'm like "but wouldn't the board want to think that through before it goes on the list?"
I think at this point it's best to collect the suggestions and they can be reviewed prioritized later
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:52 AM on March 24
The mod log project started under previous management and continued under current management until its release.
Understandably, people probably want a more specific answer, but it's best to move forward and decide how and when we get to a more full featured moderation log, IMO.
Eek see here's the point where I'm like "but wouldn't the board want to think that through before it goes on the list?"
I think at this point it's best to collect the suggestions and they can be reviewed prioritized later
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:52 AM on March 24
The mod log project started under previous management and continued under current management until its release.
Understandably, people probably want a more specific answer
It’d be really useful to have a more specific answer here. Right now, who are the managers who are making these decisions?
posted by bunton at 12:00 PM on March 24 [18 favorites]
Understandably, people probably want a more specific answer
It’d be really useful to have a more specific answer here. Right now, who are the managers who are making these decisions?
posted by bunton at 12:00 PM on March 24 [18 favorites]
"Understandably, people probably want a more specific answer, but it's best to move forward and decide how and when we get to a more full featured moderation log, IMO."
Absolutely not. Who is management?
posted by bowbeacon at 12:02 PM on March 24 [19 favorites]
Absolutely not. Who is management?
posted by bowbeacon at 12:02 PM on March 24 [19 favorites]
Wait, so there's been a change in who is able and willing to make decisions? I thought the whole idea was to hold off until elections?
Is the structure now Brandon -> Interim Board? My assumption was, pre-nonprofit, it was "Brandon (or any mod) -> Loup -> Jessamyn".
Has loup been removed from the loop, as it were? Or was it Jessamyn that was choosing where resources were distributed?
Who on earth is making decisions anymore? Why would we not be able to learn the (user)names of either a past manager from a defunct company, or of current board members or employees of a nonprofit?
posted by sagc at 12:03 PM on March 24 [14 favorites]
Is the structure now Brandon -> Interim Board? My assumption was, pre-nonprofit, it was "Brandon (or any mod) -> Loup -> Jessamyn".
Has loup been removed from the loop, as it were? Or was it Jessamyn that was choosing where resources were distributed?
Who on earth is making decisions anymore? Why would we not be able to learn the (user)names of either a past manager from a defunct company, or of current board members or employees of a nonprofit?
posted by sagc at 12:03 PM on March 24 [14 favorites]
Some level of mismanagement has undeniably sent $40,000 of user donations to Amazon to perform services with absolutely no value to anyone. The Former Managment of this site was entirely, laughably incompetent. What we don't know is who that management was, but it seems awfully important going forward.
posted by bowbeacon at 12:07 PM on March 24 [12 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 12:07 PM on March 24 [12 favorites]
There is no cabal, but if you ask who is managing the site, well, it's best just to move forward...
posted by ssg at 12:08 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
posted by ssg at 12:08 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
Absolutely not. Who is management?
Are you familiar with the cartoon Family Circus?
posted by snofoam at 12:22 PM on March 24 [6 favorites]
Are you familiar with the cartoon Family Circus?
posted by snofoam at 12:22 PM on March 24 [6 favorites]
Obviously MM stands for "Master Manipulator." I believe this is the same person who told an amazing story to get a free account but then turned out to be a spammer.
posted by snofoam at 12:25 PM on March 24 [6 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 12:25 PM on March 24 [6 favorites]
I'd sure love to know what the interim board (Rhaomi, 1Adam12, Gorgik) thinks of how Brandon has characterised them in his comment above, since all we can do is assume that's who he's talking about, since he's refusing to explain otherwise. Otherwise, he's talking about Loup and Jessamyn.
It would be interesting to know if they agree with how Brandon has outlined the situation and whether they're happy with having him speak on their behalf. I have to say that if my employee said those things, in public, in front of our paying community, without my prior authorisation, I would not be very happy.
posted by fight or flight at 12:28 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
It would be interesting to know if they agree with how Brandon has outlined the situation and whether they're happy with having him speak on their behalf. I have to say that if my employee said those things, in public, in front of our paying community, without my prior authorisation, I would not be very happy.
posted by fight or flight at 12:28 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
Is the current management bigger than a breadbox?
posted by snofoam at 12:30 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 12:30 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
Otherwise, he's talking about Loup and Jessamyn.
This is what I want clarification about, actually. Is he talking about Loup, Jessamyn, or LoupAndJessamyn?
posted by bowbeacon at 12:30 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
This is what I want clarification about, actually. Is he talking about Loup, Jessamyn, or LoupAndJessamyn?
posted by bowbeacon at 12:30 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Wait, I got it! Is management the little speaker from Severance?
posted by snofoam at 12:31 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 12:31 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
Why can't it be an unnamed third choice? Didn't some long time sorta famous mefite donate a bunch of cash a few months ago?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 1:10 PM on March 24
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 1:10 PM on March 24
You guys I am so mad I've been on calls this afternoon and got scooped on making the spammer joke. By rights that dig belongs to me. I'm calling my attorney.
posted by phunniemee at 1:31 PM on March 24 [9 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 1:31 PM on March 24 [9 favorites]
I can't believe snofoam violated prima mockta.
posted by lucidium at 2:10 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
posted by lucidium at 2:10 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
is management in the room with us right now?
posted by sylvanshine at 2:12 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
posted by sylvanshine at 2:12 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
clearly not
posted by bowmaniac at 2:31 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
posted by bowmaniac at 2:31 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
i pasted this attempt at an organisational chart in the BIPOC Board thread and it was murky then. Can we get clarity on:
[Chairperson of the Board]
|
|
|
[Board(s)]
|
|
|
[Director of Metafilter, currently non existent, previously would have been occupied by jessamyn/cortex/mathowie if MF was an NFP back then]
|
|
|
[Head Mod Brandon Blatcher, semi-official designation? Or loup?]
|
|
|
[Other Mods, other staff like kirkaracha]
posted by creatrixtiara at 2:35 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
[Chairperson of the Board]
|
|
|
[Board(s)]
|
|
|
[Director of Metafilter, currently non existent, previously would have been occupied by jessamyn/cortex/mathowie if MF was an NFP back then]
|
|
|
[Head Mod Brandon Blatcher, semi-official designation? Or loup?]
|
|
|
[Other Mods, other staff like kirkaracha]
posted by creatrixtiara at 2:35 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
Somehow Management is never in the room.
posted by Miko at 2:36 PM on March 24 [7 favorites]
posted by Miko at 2:36 PM on March 24 [7 favorites]
OK. Let's break this down another way. There are staff and contractors who are being paid by the entity of Metafilter. Who is paying you? Under what authority? Who directs your work? If you have to call in sick, whom do you inform about this? Who makes decisions about what you need to do, and what you should prioritize?
At just a basic level, these are questions that should have easy answers!
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:07 PM on March 24 [8 favorites]
At just a basic level, these are questions that should have easy answers!
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:07 PM on March 24 [8 favorites]
Management (MM): we don't really have the resources to do that
From the CCTV footage of the MetaFilter staff break room, it looks like MM is Mads Mikkelsen.
posted by Wordshore at 3:21 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
From the CCTV footage of the MetaFilter staff break room, it looks like MM is Mads Mikkelsen.
posted by Wordshore at 3:21 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
General Information At A Glance
OK, that's... some information. It doesn't really explain how different people and groups relate to each other though and that's my underlying question.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:26 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
OK, that's... some information. It doesn't really explain how different people and groups relate to each other though and that's my underlying question.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:26 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
MODERATORS
Loup (started June 2020)
Management, moderation, payroll, bill pay, and policy.
Taz (started October 2011)
Social media and communication
Goodnewsfortheinsane (started October 2012)
Miscellaneous clerical and tracking tasks
Travelingthyme (started June 2020)
BIPOC Committee work
Brandon Blatcher (started 2023)
Social media and communication
Are these descriptions of the actual roles??!?! Or is this just a garbage page with no serious info?
posted by snofoam at 3:55 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
Loup (started June 2020)
Management, moderation, payroll, bill pay, and policy.
Taz (started October 2011)
Social media and communication
Goodnewsfortheinsane (started October 2012)
Miscellaneous clerical and tracking tasks
Travelingthyme (started June 2020)
BIPOC Committee work
Brandon Blatcher (started 2023)
Social media and communication
Are these descriptions of the actual roles??!?! Or is this just a garbage page with no serious info?
posted by snofoam at 3:55 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
MM=Manage Mentos
[Jaunty music plays, BB sits at a computer, lasagna defrosts in background]
[Pan to computer screen, angry messages from users wanting to know what is going on with the money they are donating]
[Pan back to BB, moment of fear on his face, but then a sparkle of inspiration in his eyes]
[BB holds up a roll of Mentos, pops one out with his thumb and into his mouth]
[BB turns back to the computer and starts typing a wild and totally made up story]
[Users go crazy over this bizarre and incomprehensible "information" and are temporarily distracted from original issue, somehow no one is fired]
[end]
posted by snofoam at 4:03 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
[Jaunty music plays, BB sits at a computer, lasagna defrosts in background]
[Pan to computer screen, angry messages from users wanting to know what is going on with the money they are donating]
[Pan back to BB, moment of fear on his face, but then a sparkle of inspiration in his eyes]
[BB holds up a roll of Mentos, pops one out with his thumb and into his mouth]
[BB turns back to the computer and starts typing a wild and totally made up story]
[Users go crazy over this bizarre and incomprehensible "information" and are temporarily distracted from original issue, somehow no one is fired]
[end]
posted by snofoam at 4:03 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]
What exactly is stopping the Board from doing some actual Governing, especially in the absence of an Executive Director, who normally would be the person in charge?
My old job (a small non profit) had a sudden change of CEO and brought in a new CEO in the interim. She still did CEO things - we weren't waiting until the AGM for her to get on with the work of managing the organization.
tivalasvegas has some great questions that should be straightforward to answer. It doesn't help though that BB has a tendency to omit words in sentences ("until I the internal tracker we used" - until I *what* realized? Noticed? Found out?) and now he's being evasive about naming management. Right now he's the one trying to make decisions, such as the decision to not name management and instead just move forward with collecting ideas for the moderation log. Is that actually within his power to do so, to make that call?
Brandon, are you the actual manager/director of Metafilter currently? Do you have the authority to act like one, like you are currently?
posted by creatrixtiara at 4:43 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
My old job (a small non profit) had a sudden change of CEO and brought in a new CEO in the interim. She still did CEO things - we weren't waiting until the AGM for her to get on with the work of managing the organization.
tivalasvegas has some great questions that should be straightforward to answer. It doesn't help though that BB has a tendency to omit words in sentences ("until I the internal tracker we used" - until I *what* realized? Noticed? Found out?) and now he's being evasive about naming management. Right now he's the one trying to make decisions, such as the decision to not name management and instead just move forward with collecting ideas for the moderation log. Is that actually within his power to do so, to make that call?
Brandon, are you the actual manager/director of Metafilter currently? Do you have the authority to act like one, like you are currently?
posted by creatrixtiara at 4:43 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
This is under General Information at a Glace:
SITE OWNERposted by kirkaracha (staff) at 4:49 PM on March 24
MetaFilter Community Foundation Board (MCF or MeFiCoFo)
Current Members (Interim Board): Rhaomi, 1Adam12, Gorgik
yes, but the Board doesn't seem to be doing any actual governance, and it seems that any sort of decision making about what the site does or doesn't do has fallen on Brandon. He suggested starting up a racism log on the BIPOC Board thread and despite a couple of us pushing back on it, he replied saying he was ready to start a form and get the project going. On whose authority, his?
There's a difference between who is listed as the management and who actually is the management. Brandon's unwillingness to just state plainly who management is speaks volumes.
posted by creatrixtiara at 4:56 PM on March 24 [11 favorites]
There's a difference between who is listed as the management and who actually is the management. Brandon's unwillingness to just state plainly who management is speaks volumes.
posted by creatrixtiara at 4:56 PM on March 24 [11 favorites]
Kirkaracha, who do you report to? Who gives you the signoff on projects?
posted by creatrixtiara at 5:13 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
posted by creatrixtiara at 5:13 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
As others have pointed out, the Interim Board is currently in charge of MetaFilter. If it helps, think of the Interim Board as having replaced Jessaymn interms of hierarchy.
Loup oversees day to day operations. Then I and the other mods are under loup.
Brandon, are you the actual manager/director of Metafilter currently? Do you have the authority to act like one, like you are currently?
NO, I am not and have never been the actual manager/director of MetaFilter. I am, and have always been under loup, along with the rest of the other mods. That has always been the case.
So it's:
Board (currently Interim)
|
Loup
|
Mods / developers
He suggested starting up a racism log on the BIPOC Board thread and despite a couple of us pushing back on it, he replied saying he was ready to start a form and get the project going. On whose authority, his?
We're working from two different places on that.
Here's where I'm coming from: I had an idea, stated what it was, then was offering to volunteer to help implement that idea. That's it. Was pretty much in the mode of "Oh, I can volunteer, here's what what I can do." I did not ask for permission to do that and honestly don't feel as though I have to. Not because I think I'm in charge or have power, just oh here's an idea, it'll need work, here's what I can do.
If there's some other idea that people like, I can pitch in and help there too. I'm not trying to implement that specific idea since others don't seem to like it. we can move on to something else.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:17 PM on March 24
Loup oversees day to day operations. Then I and the other mods are under loup.
Brandon, are you the actual manager/director of Metafilter currently? Do you have the authority to act like one, like you are currently?
NO, I am not and have never been the actual manager/director of MetaFilter. I am, and have always been under loup, along with the rest of the other mods. That has always been the case.
So it's:
Board (currently Interim)
|
Loup
|
Mods / developers
He suggested starting up a racism log on the BIPOC Board thread and despite a couple of us pushing back on it, he replied saying he was ready to start a form and get the project going. On whose authority, his?
We're working from two different places on that.
Here's where I'm coming from: I had an idea, stated what it was, then was offering to volunteer to help implement that idea. That's it. Was pretty much in the mode of "Oh, I can volunteer, here's what what I can do." I did not ask for permission to do that and honestly don't feel as though I have to. Not because I think I'm in charge or have power, just oh here's an idea, it'll need work, here's what I can do.
If there's some other idea that people like, I can pitch in and help there too. I'm not trying to implement that specific idea since others don't seem to like it. we can move on to something else.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:17 PM on March 24
Me: hey members, here's a simple moderation log (SML)!
Members: Ok, cool, but why isn't this more full featured?!
Me: Focusing resources on new site.
Me thinking to myself: This could be more full featured and a lot of members will be disappointed and want more, which makes total sense, but this is at least at start and we can go from there.
A missing step in this summary is that you did announce a while ago that a minimal mod log of sorts was planned for the existing site - you’re actually making the communication sound a little worse than it was. Of course several people (including me) responded to that announcement to say, man, that doesn’t seem like such a great use of resources given that it’s unlikely to deliver what people actually want and meanwhile a whole new site is in progress.
Which is not to say definitively that it wasn’t worth it - I have no sense of how much work went into it. But it’s consistent with a theme that’s already emerged in this thread, which is that the site really needs to get a handle on how to make decisions before making a whole bunch more.
posted by atoxyl at 5:52 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
Members: Ok, cool, but why isn't this more full featured?!
Me: Focusing resources on new site.
Me thinking to myself: This could be more full featured and a lot of members will be disappointed and want more, which makes total sense, but this is at least at start and we can go from there.
A missing step in this summary is that you did announce a while ago that a minimal mod log of sorts was planned for the existing site - you’re actually making the communication sound a little worse than it was. Of course several people (including me) responded to that announcement to say, man, that doesn’t seem like such a great use of resources given that it’s unlikely to deliver what people actually want and meanwhile a whole new site is in progress.
Which is not to say definitively that it wasn’t worth it - I have no sense of how much work went into it. But it’s consistent with a theme that’s already emerged in this thread, which is that the site really needs to get a handle on how to make decisions before making a whole bunch more.
posted by atoxyl at 5:52 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
I think the pseudolog combined with always-mod-note is a good threading of the resource needle. It takes an existing database query and publicises deletions and norms, the two things that have always felt pretty opaque here. It's a large flat rock a couple people hauled over to a campsite that wanted a table.
posted by lucidium at 6:09 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
posted by lucidium at 6:09 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
My understanding is that until the bylaws are in place we can add more board members just via volunteering, but the board has to let them in on… whatever board activities are happening, obviously. I don’t think that’s been offered in any explicit fashion, but if it’s on the table, who should be contacted if someone is interested in joining the board? Or volunteering in general? I did volunteer to help with 501c3 and bylaw stuff but the last time I heard anything folks were waiting on clarification for some stuff.
Is there a Slack volunteers can hang out in? I’ve just had individual contacts from multiple different people via MeMail or e-mail. I’ll probably follow up with them individually soon but not sure if there’s a better way to be involved.
posted by brook horse at 7:56 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
Is there a Slack volunteers can hang out in? I’ve just had individual contacts from multiple different people via MeMail or e-mail. I’ll probably follow up with them individually soon but not sure if there’s a better way to be involved.
posted by brook horse at 7:56 PM on March 24 [5 favorites]
You could email the board (MeFiCoFo AT gmail.com) and ask them.
Kirkaracha, who do you report to? Who gives you the signoff on projects?
Asked and answered by Brandon.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 7:08 AM on March 25
Kirkaracha, who do you report to? Who gives you the signoff on projects?
Asked and answered by Brandon.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 7:08 AM on March 25
It feels rather inefficient to move questions about the governance of the site out of a site-wide update thread and into email, doesn't it? Surely the board is reading this thread and will respond here?
posted by bowbeacon at 7:10 AM on March 25 [12 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 7:10 AM on March 25 [12 favorites]
OK, maybe we're getting somewhere.
So my next question is: what is the governing board doing? It's been a few months since the nonprofit transition, have they met? What is being discussed and decided? What is the plan for elections?
I don't know if these are questions that Brandon (or kirkaracha) can answer, maybe loup? but ideally someone on the board itself will come in here and explain to us what the situation is. Brandon is being put in a position where it looks like he's in charge simply because he and kirkaracha are the only ones talking to any of us, and that's pretty unfair to them.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:18 AM on March 25 [9 favorites]
So my next question is: what is the governing board doing? It's been a few months since the nonprofit transition, have they met? What is being discussed and decided? What is the plan for elections?
I don't know if these are questions that Brandon (or kirkaracha) can answer, maybe loup? but ideally someone on the board itself will come in here and explain to us what the situation is. Brandon is being put in a position where it looks like he's in charge simply because he and kirkaracha are the only ones talking to any of us, and that's pretty unfair to them.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:18 AM on March 25 [9 favorites]
It's ridiculously unfair to Kirk, who is just a person who loves Metafilter and has been hired to do a rewrite. There's no reason he should be the one putting his Staff badge out to defend the board against the slings and arrows of Metatalk.
posted by bowbeacon at 8:44 AM on March 25 [15 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 8:44 AM on March 25 [15 favorites]
The question "What is the plan for elections?" has already been answered in this thread and elsewhere. The interim board have decided that they want to do elections via some kind of voting process that will be built into the new site, using the existing Metafilter user accounts for authentication. So:
1. No elections will happen before the new site is live.
2. The fully elected board will not have any influence on the new site until it's already switched on and the data migrated.
What I'm not clear about is what happens if there are delays to the new site going live, or questions about what the functionality should be at the golive/data migration date.
Who is making the decisions about the new site, in particular which features are necessary for golive? The interim board, kirkaracha or loup?
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:10 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
1. No elections will happen before the new site is live.
2. The fully elected board will not have any influence on the new site until it's already switched on and the data migrated.
What I'm not clear about is what happens if there are delays to the new site going live, or questions about what the functionality should be at the golive/data migration date.
Who is making the decisions about the new site, in particular which features are necessary for golive? The interim board, kirkaracha or loup?
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:10 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
Thanks kirkaracha, I sent them an e-mail.
posted by brook horse at 9:18 AM on March 25
posted by brook horse at 9:18 AM on March 25
So my next question is: what is the governing board doing? It's been a few months since the nonprofit transition, have they met? What is being discussed and decided? What is the plan for elections?
They're working on writing the bylaws, I'll drop a question in Slack asking them to update the status of that in the site update, which should be this week
Brandon is being put in a position where it looks like he's in charge simply because he and kirkaracha are the only ones talking to any of us, and that's pretty unfair to them.
I'm paid employee with allocated hours, the board members are volunteers and don't have set hours, so if there's basic questions I know the answers to I'll answer. Plus I generally answer questions in MeTa anyway, so not big deal.
Kirkaracha is just generally helpful and awesome, so him chiming in isn't surprising. Thanks for doing that!
Who is making the decisions about the new site, in particular which features are necessary for golive? The interim board, kirkaracha or loup?
The golive goal with the new site to replicate the old site, so most things are already decided, feature wise. Final review will probably be some mix of member input, checking with the mods to see if anything was missed (especially on the backend), then discussion with kirkaracha and loup and the board, then final thumbs up. That is just my guess though, so don't hold us to that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:44 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
They're working on writing the bylaws, I'll drop a question in Slack asking them to update the status of that in the site update, which should be this week
Brandon is being put in a position where it looks like he's in charge simply because he and kirkaracha are the only ones talking to any of us, and that's pretty unfair to them.
I'm paid employee with allocated hours, the board members are volunteers and don't have set hours, so if there's basic questions I know the answers to I'll answer. Plus I generally answer questions in MeTa anyway, so not big deal.
Kirkaracha is just generally helpful and awesome, so him chiming in isn't surprising. Thanks for doing that!
Who is making the decisions about the new site, in particular which features are necessary for golive? The interim board, kirkaracha or loup?
The golive goal with the new site to replicate the old site, so most things are already decided, feature wise. Final review will probably be some mix of member input, checking with the mods to see if anything was missed (especially on the backend), then discussion with kirkaracha and loup and the board, then final thumbs up. That is just my guess though, so don't hold us to that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:44 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
The question "What is the plan for elections?" has already been answered in this thread and elsewhere. The interim board have decided that they want to do elections via some kind of voting process that will be built into the new site, using the existing Metafilter user accounts for authentication.
OK, that actually does answer that question; I hadn't seen the comment you linked to.
I continue to believe that tying elections to the launch of the new site is a bad idea and urge the board to reconsider it, but at least now I know the answer to that question.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:47 AM on March 25 [12 favorites]
OK, that actually does answer that question; I hadn't seen the comment you linked to.
I continue to believe that tying elections to the launch of the new site is a bad idea and urge the board to reconsider it, but at least now I know the answer to that question.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:47 AM on March 25 [12 favorites]
It's a large flat rock a couple people hauled over to a campsite that wanted a table.
It sounds like that’s the underlying idea on the staff side, that it was low-hanging fruit. I guess the thing that feels weird is just, how do I say this, prioritizing by importance, it seems like “voting mechanisms” come way the hell before “mod log.” It seems like the prioritization has been done by LoE instead and I don’t really have much insight into that.
posted by atoxyl at 10:11 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
It sounds like that’s the underlying idea on the staff side, that it was low-hanging fruit. I guess the thing that feels weird is just, how do I say this, prioritizing by importance, it seems like “voting mechanisms” come way the hell before “mod log.” It seems like the prioritization has been done by LoE instead and I don’t really have much insight into that.
posted by atoxyl at 10:11 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
I continue to believe that tying elections to the launch of the new site is a bad idea and urge the board to reconsider it
As someone who's worked in software development since the last millenium, I agree. I've seen too many software projects hit delays and obstacles. Maybe this one will be fine, but it seems like an unnecessary risk. There were elections on the old site, maybe that method could be used again.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:17 PM on March 25 [7 favorites]
As someone who's worked in software development since the last millenium, I agree. I've seen too many software projects hit delays and obstacles. Maybe this one will be fine, but it seems like an unnecessary risk. There were elections on the old site, maybe that method could be used again.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:17 PM on March 25 [7 favorites]
Software projects pretty much all hit delays and obstacles when they're run by teams of full time engineers, who are paid market rates, with a dedicated software engineering manager and a product manager.
The variety of things that can cause delays with a single engineer working in their spare time for well under market rates, is really very significantly more than that. In particular, if he needs to step back for any reason before the thing goes live (life has a way of happening to people when they make other plans!), he's likely to be difficult or impossible to replace, which could mean an indefinite hiatus.
posted by quacks like a duck at 1:55 PM on March 25 [8 favorites]
The variety of things that can cause delays with a single engineer working in their spare time for well under market rates, is really very significantly more than that. In particular, if he needs to step back for any reason before the thing goes live (life has a way of happening to people when they make other plans!), he's likely to be difficult or impossible to replace, which could mean an indefinite hiatus.
posted by quacks like a duck at 1:55 PM on March 25 [8 favorites]
The golive goal with the new site to replicate the old site, so most things are already decided, feature wise. Final review will probably be some mix of member input, checking with the mods to see if anything was missed (especially on the backend), then discussion with kirkaracha and loup and the board, then final thumbs up. That is just my guess though, so don't hold us to that.
This is the kind of the thing that worries me as a software developer/manager.
First it's not as obvious as you might think what "replicate the old site" means. The exact UI? The same sort of functionality: post comments and FPPs and have favorites? Something in between?
Also if the code of the old site is so obscure and complicated nobody can work on it, it's likely obscure and complicated enough to be hard to replicate.
Then the process is apparently to run the new site past multiple different groups of people, any of which groups can request changes, and who may have different ideas. That's the kind of thing I've seen lead to projects going in circles, as each group asks for changes that another group then doesn't like.
I think there should be one person, or one group of people who can have a discussion in real time and reach a decision, with the responsibility and power to say which features have to be complete before the migration/golive, and which can be left till afterwards.
That person or group should be working with kirkaracha from the start to make sure he's building the most critical features first.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 4:14 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
This is the kind of the thing that worries me as a software developer/manager.
First it's not as obvious as you might think what "replicate the old site" means. The exact UI? The same sort of functionality: post comments and FPPs and have favorites? Something in between?
Also if the code of the old site is so obscure and complicated nobody can work on it, it's likely obscure and complicated enough to be hard to replicate.
Then the process is apparently to run the new site past multiple different groups of people, any of which groups can request changes, and who may have different ideas. That's the kind of thing I've seen lead to projects going in circles, as each group asks for changes that another group then doesn't like.
I think there should be one person, or one group of people who can have a discussion in real time and reach a decision, with the responsibility and power to say which features have to be complete before the migration/golive, and which can be left till afterwards.
That person or group should be working with kirkaracha from the start to make sure he's building the most critical features first.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 4:14 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
If you want there to be product management, then start volunteering your product management time and skills. If you want a decision-making process, design one
having attempted exactly this sort of thing MANY times in my career -- i.e. "oh a review process doesn't exist for X, I'll just go ahead and make one!" -- the problem is that workflows for approval and decision-making require broad understanding and buy-in before they can work. it's one thing (and no easy thing to be clear!) for kirk to just start working on a new codebase: as he does this, the code exists to be seen by everyone no matter what they think of how he's doing it. the thing creates its own momentum, irrespective of others' feelings about it. (helps that kirk's nailing both the dev work and the communication side.) but for, say, a pipeline for reviewing and accepting feature requests, or approving decisions on how to move forward with aspects of project work, to function properly, everyone has to agree on and abide by the process, which is much more about socialization and getting collective agreement than it is about bootstrapping the process into place.
that's doable, but only if you either have or have direct access to the authority levels to require such adherence and to push things back on track should they stray. the lack of proper top-down management described in this thread, combined with the extremely messy mix of assumptions and predispositions of the community that variously feels empowered to say or do things, is exactly the sort of counterproductive force that would make a manager feel like a boat against a strong current.
all that said: if the interim board (who is meant to function as the highest authority for the site right now) explicitly approves it and provides the license to do so, I would happily volunteer as a project/program manager for the website rebuild and all feature requests and build-outs related thereto (e.g. the mod log), at least in terms of getting workflows set up. I'm a federal employee currently in admin-leave-limbo at my actual job, which has given me space to dive in with stuff like the mod committee; I'd happily push in further if I didn't feel like it was going to be so much Google Doc-produced shouting into a void.
posted by Kybard at 6:42 AM on March 26 [17 favorites]
having attempted exactly this sort of thing MANY times in my career -- i.e. "oh a review process doesn't exist for X, I'll just go ahead and make one!" -- the problem is that workflows for approval and decision-making require broad understanding and buy-in before they can work. it's one thing (and no easy thing to be clear!) for kirk to just start working on a new codebase: as he does this, the code exists to be seen by everyone no matter what they think of how he's doing it. the thing creates its own momentum, irrespective of others' feelings about it. (helps that kirk's nailing both the dev work and the communication side.) but for, say, a pipeline for reviewing and accepting feature requests, or approving decisions on how to move forward with aspects of project work, to function properly, everyone has to agree on and abide by the process, which is much more about socialization and getting collective agreement than it is about bootstrapping the process into place.
that's doable, but only if you either have or have direct access to the authority levels to require such adherence and to push things back on track should they stray. the lack of proper top-down management described in this thread, combined with the extremely messy mix of assumptions and predispositions of the community that variously feels empowered to say or do things, is exactly the sort of counterproductive force that would make a manager feel like a boat against a strong current.
all that said: if the interim board (who is meant to function as the highest authority for the site right now) explicitly approves it and provides the license to do so, I would happily volunteer as a project/program manager for the website rebuild and all feature requests and build-outs related thereto (e.g. the mod log), at least in terms of getting workflows set up. I'm a federal employee currently in admin-leave-limbo at my actual job, which has given me space to dive in with stuff like the mod committee; I'd happily push in further if I didn't feel like it was going to be so much Google Doc-produced shouting into a void.
posted by Kybard at 6:42 AM on March 26 [17 favorites]
First it's not as obvious as you might think what "replicate the old site" means. The exact UI? The same sort of functionality: post comments and FPPs and have favorites? Something in between?
The same functionality with minor changes to the UI for accessibility and (hopefully) better user experience. If you compare the current site with the new one, there are some slight visual differences, but the functionality is essentially the same.
Also if the code of the old site is so obscure and complicated nobody can work on it, it's likely obscure and complicated enough to be hard to replicate.
I'm not even looking at the code of the old site. So far most of the work is blog features: making posts and commenting on or reacting to them. When we get to more idiosyncratic stuff I can work with frimble or dig in to the code.
Then the process is apparently to run the new site past multiple different groups of people, any of which groups can request changes, and who may have different ideas.
Other than showing the site to mods and the board a week or so before members, the process is to make updates on the test server and do MetaTalk update posts.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 8:14 AM on March 26 [6 favorites]
The same functionality with minor changes to the UI for accessibility and (hopefully) better user experience. If you compare the current site with the new one, there are some slight visual differences, but the functionality is essentially the same.
Also if the code of the old site is so obscure and complicated nobody can work on it, it's likely obscure and complicated enough to be hard to replicate.
I'm not even looking at the code of the old site. So far most of the work is blog features: making posts and commenting on or reacting to them. When we get to more idiosyncratic stuff I can work with frimble or dig in to the code.
Then the process is apparently to run the new site past multiple different groups of people, any of which groups can request changes, and who may have different ideas.
Other than showing the site to mods and the board a week or so before members, the process is to make updates on the test server and do MetaTalk update posts.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 8:14 AM on March 26 [6 favorites]
One could easily assume that any interim board that takes actions to extend their own existence so needlessly is doing so to extend their own influence and ability to make changes. I'm not sure if that was really part of the initial mandate of the interim board, but here we are. It would be interesting to hear from the interim board what those additional changes they have in store might be.
posted by grog at 9:57 AM on March 26 [2 favorites]
posted by grog at 9:57 AM on March 26 [2 favorites]
Kybard (and warriorqueen who made a similar point), yes you are absolutely right to say things aren't literally as simple as one person jumping in and heroically solving things, there have to be decision-making structures in place to support them (which tbf was referenced in my comment). My point is that fundamentally all these things are now the community's problem to put in place — however deeper or more abstract you go, everything is inescapably our collective problem to deal with and I stand by the view that that hasn't sunk in (not least judging by all the standard Metatalk bullshit I got from others). Needless to say, no one seriously thinks current paid management and mods are the drivers of progress at this point. And the work to be done is far bigger than three remaining interim board members can do.
posted by Klipspringer at 11:29 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
posted by Klipspringer at 11:29 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
For a long time the deal here was "pay $5 and get a lifetime license to shout at the owner" but that won't work any more, you can't talk to volunteers the way we're used to talking to owners and paid staff. I'm just back from my regular IRL volunteering gig (medal pls) and we would all just send a customer straight out the door rather than put up with any of that.
I will put my cards on the table and say that I personally have zero belief in the community ownership idea, I was 100% fine with Matt owning the site and taking the decisions and making some money off it, too, when he could. But that ship has totally sailed, there is no point arguing the pros and cons now. There was little or no questioning when a few people started pushing the idea (what, a decade ago? idk) and as far as I recall when cortex left jessamyn was the only serious candidate to take the reins and she did so on the basis ownership would be transferred to the community. So we are where we are and have to more forward and start understanding the new reality.
posted by Klipspringer at 11:29 AM on March 26 [3 favorites]
I will put my cards on the table and say that I personally have zero belief in the community ownership idea, I was 100% fine with Matt owning the site and taking the decisions and making some money off it, too, when he could. But that ship has totally sailed, there is no point arguing the pros and cons now. There was little or no questioning when a few people started pushing the idea (what, a decade ago? idk) and as far as I recall when cortex left jessamyn was the only serious candidate to take the reins and she did so on the basis ownership would be transferred to the community. So we are where we are and have to more forward and start understanding the new reality.
posted by Klipspringer at 11:29 AM on March 26 [3 favorites]
I think that's a false dichotomy though. I don't think the only options are ownership-by-one-person or dysfunctional-community-nonprofit.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:19 PM on March 26 [4 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:19 PM on March 26 [4 favorites]
The thing is: Metafilter is just a message board community. Other old messageboards like SomethingAwful or Fark or Lobste.rs get by with just one or two people running things.
We have an:
Interim Board of 3
1 Operations manager (loup)
4 moderators
2 web developers
A BIPOC committeee of 2 members plus mods
A Moderation Oversight Committee (size unknown)
The problem isn't that no-one is stepping up. The problem is that nobody has defined responsibilities and powers.
We don't desperately need more people to wander in at random and stick their fingers into the pie.
We need to know who is in charge of what, and what powers they have to achieve it.
E.g. what I've been trying to find out in this thread is: who is making the decisions about the new site, in particular which features are necessary for golive? The answers I got were:
Beandon Blatcher:
It doesn't matter if a hundred willing volunteers hurl their warm bodies into the fray. We don't need a hundred more people with no official power or responsibility. We need one person to say "That's on me. I have the responsibility and power to make that decision".
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:21 AM on March 27 [21 favorites]
We have an:
Interim Board of 3
1 Operations manager (loup)
4 moderators
2 web developers
A BIPOC committeee of 2 members plus mods
A Moderation Oversight Committee (size unknown)
The problem isn't that no-one is stepping up. The problem is that nobody has defined responsibilities and powers.
We don't desperately need more people to wander in at random and stick their fingers into the pie.
We need to know who is in charge of what, and what powers they have to achieve it.
E.g. what I've been trying to find out in this thread is: who is making the decisions about the new site, in particular which features are necessary for golive? The answers I got were:
Beandon Blatcher:
The golive goal with the new site to replicate the old site, so most things are already decided, feature wise. Final review will probably be some mix of member input, checking with the mods to see if anything was missed (especially on the backend), then discussion with kirkaracha and loup and the board, then final thumbs up. That is just my guess though, so don't hold us to that.kirkaracha:
Other than showing the site to mods and the board a week or so before members, the process is to make updates on the test server and do MetaTalk update posts.Nobody is admitting to having the responsibility of making the golive decision, or the power to make it happen.
It doesn't matter if a hundred willing volunteers hurl their warm bodies into the fray. We don't need a hundred more people with no official power or responsibility. We need one person to say "That's on me. I have the responsibility and power to make that decision".
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:21 AM on March 27 [21 favorites]
Oops! You have my permission to edit it if you like!
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:39 AM on March 27
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:39 AM on March 27
Nah, it’s hilarious!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:45 AM on March 27
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:45 AM on March 27
We need one person to say "That's on me. I have the responsibility and power to make that decision".
I agree. However, that is the responsibility and power that has now catastrophically burned out three people (Matt, cortex, and clearly Loup) and that Jessamyn in her hard-won wisdom declined to accept. If and when Metafilter has a person in that role again, we're going to have to accept that a lot of things are going to get done in ways other than direct-via-MetaTalk democracy (and the first job of that person is going to be to work with the board to establish those ways.)
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 4:48 AM on March 27 [9 favorites]
I agree. However, that is the responsibility and power that has now catastrophically burned out three people (Matt, cortex, and clearly Loup) and that Jessamyn in her hard-won wisdom declined to accept. If and when Metafilter has a person in that role again, we're going to have to accept that a lot of things are going to get done in ways other than direct-via-MetaTalk democracy (and the first job of that person is going to be to work with the board to establish those ways.)
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 4:48 AM on March 27 [9 favorites]
The problem is that it is patently absurd to assert that such a person does not exist today. I mean maybe it's not one person, maybe it's like a group of people, like a collection or a cabinet of people, or whatever that word is you use to describe a group of persons having managerial, supervisory, investigatory, or advisory powers...
posted by grog at 7:24 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
posted by grog at 7:24 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
And Boards can delegate powers, but they have to actually do that. They have to explicitly say "This committee has the authority to do X." They need to write and approve bylaws. While it's not necessary, it's also really helpful if they create clear communication channels so that people know who's doing what and who has what authority.
I can't just jump in and be in charge of moderation decisions or website approval. That's not actually what "community-run" means in an organization with paid staff, a Board, limited access to things like moderator tools and bank accounts and such. There are people with access to those things and people without access to those things, and the people with the legal power to grant access to, or authority over, those things are the Board.
posted by lapis at 7:47 AM on March 27 [5 favorites]
I can't just jump in and be in charge of moderation decisions or website approval. That's not actually what "community-run" means in an organization with paid staff, a Board, limited access to things like moderator tools and bank accounts and such. There are people with access to those things and people without access to those things, and the people with the legal power to grant access to, or authority over, those things are the Board.
posted by lapis at 7:47 AM on March 27 [5 favorites]
The problem is that it is patently absurd to assert that such a person does not exist today.
Sure, someone exists with the literal and actual authority to do things (although with the bylaws still under construction, I'm not entirely sure who that is.) The problem is that no one currently seems to feel they have the moral authority to do anything - the interim board would rather not make decisions until a permanent board is elected and the staff clearly don't want to make significant decisions without the backing of the board. This leaves the site in the limbo it has been in for some years now. It's hard to watch.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 11:53 AM on March 27 [7 favorites]
Sure, someone exists with the literal and actual authority to do things (although with the bylaws still under construction, I'm not entirely sure who that is.) The problem is that no one currently seems to feel they have the moral authority to do anything - the interim board would rather not make decisions until a permanent board is elected and the staff clearly don't want to make significant decisions without the backing of the board. This leaves the site in the limbo it has been in for some years now. It's hard to watch.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 11:53 AM on March 27 [7 favorites]
1. The site update is running a little behind as we have a volunteer member going over the P&L information to see if there's anything missing. We hope to post the entire March site update by the end of next week at the latest.
and
Are the mistakes in previous P&L reports going to be corrected?
Does the foundation have documented controls over financial reporting? From the perspective of a poster or contributor, I'd be more concerned about the completeness and accuracy of the financial reports as opposed to the classification of transactions. From an audit perspective both are important, but the issues surrounding the former would be more concerning.
posted by royals at 12:31 PM on March 27 [1 favorite]
and
Are the mistakes in previous P&L reports going to be corrected?
Does the foundation have documented controls over financial reporting? From the perspective of a poster or contributor, I'd be more concerned about the completeness and accuracy of the financial reports as opposed to the classification of transactions. From an audit perspective both are important, but the issues surrounding the former would be more concerning.
posted by royals at 12:31 PM on March 27 [1 favorite]
Maybe the board could make a cool script that makes key decisions for the Foundation.
posted by snofoam at 12:32 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 12:32 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
the interim board would rather not make decisions until a permanent board is elected
This is the core dilemma: the interim board is deferring decisions for a permanent board that cannot appear until they hold elections. Elections have now been put on hold awaiting a new site that may not appear without some decisions being made. The interim board is the only entity empowered to hold elections.
posted by donnagirl at 12:41 PM on March 27 [10 favorites]
This is the core dilemma: the interim board is deferring decisions for a permanent board that cannot appear until they hold elections. Elections have now been put on hold awaiting a new site that may not appear without some decisions being made. The interim board is the only entity empowered to hold elections.
posted by donnagirl at 12:41 PM on March 27 [10 favorites]
This is the core dilemma: the interim board is deferring decisions for a permanent board that cannot appear until they hold elections. Elections have now been put on hold awaiting a new site that may not appear without some decisions being made. The interim board is the only entity empowered to hold elections.
Yes, and it seems a little loose on who's empowered to say the new site is ready to go, so that we may hold elections, so that we may elect a permanent board.
posted by lapis at 12:47 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
Yes, and it seems a little loose on who's empowered to say the new site is ready to go, so that we may hold elections, so that we may elect a permanent board.
posted by lapis at 12:47 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
And I would also like to know if the definition of who's a voting member will be set, or has been set, and whether a process for determining who's elected is set (simply majority? something else?). At this point I care less what those answers are and just want to know if it's been established. Whether all of the things necessary to hold an election (other than the platform) have been established or if we're also waiting on those things.
posted by lapis at 12:53 PM on March 27 [6 favorites]
posted by lapis at 12:53 PM on March 27 [6 favorites]
The interim board needs to be writing weekly update posts and putting them on the MeTa front page. These posts should include information about what progress is being made in discussions about how to hold elections and define those eligible to participate, what the tech folks working on the new site have accomplished that week, and (for funsies) when members can now expect the BIPOC committee minutes to be released.
Biweekly update MeTa posts, at the very least.
[just saw the BIPOC minutes were posted this morning, so take that off the list]
posted by catspajamas at 12:08 PM on March 28 [5 favorites]
Biweekly update MeTa posts, at the very least.
[just saw the BIPOC minutes were posted this morning, so take that off the list]
posted by catspajamas at 12:08 PM on March 28 [5 favorites]
Thanks to frimble, I'll be importing usernames and passwords from the old site into the new site. People will then be able to log in with their real usernames and passwords on the new site. I'm also working with the board, loup, and frimble to figure out how to set up voting.
I'm doing a rebuild update MetaTalk post on Monday. Logging in should be set up by then, voting probably won't be.
Kybard has volunteered to be a project/product manager, and I'm hoping to connect with him this week.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 1:25 PM on March 28 [6 favorites]
I'm doing a rebuild update MetaTalk post on Monday. Logging in should be set up by then, voting probably won't be.
Kybard has volunteered to be a project/product manager, and I'm hoping to connect with him this week.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 1:25 PM on March 28 [6 favorites]
Hey sorry if this had already been addressed but since the mod activity log has been described in this thread and also the policy of mods committing to comment every single deleted user comment, I was wondering if that will include mass deletions of comments when a user closes their account and requests that all their comments also be deleted?
I went into an older thread yesterday where an old long term user had participated heavily, and with their account deletion and subsequent comment deletion, there were huge chunks of the conversation that made no sense and some places looked like other users were arguing with ghosts. Would a note be automatically generated to fill every one of those comment spaces so that at the very least future readers of the thread won’t feel like they’re falling down some stairs of nonsense when they get to a big patch of unacknowledged deletions?
posted by toodleydoodley at 6:56 AM on March 29 [1 favorite]
I went into an older thread yesterday where an old long term user had participated heavily, and with their account deletion and subsequent comment deletion, there were huge chunks of the conversation that made no sense and some places looked like other users were arguing with ghosts. Would a note be automatically generated to fill every one of those comment spaces so that at the very least future readers of the thread won’t feel like they’re falling down some stairs of nonsense when they get to a big patch of unacknowledged deletions?
posted by toodleydoodley at 6:56 AM on March 29 [1 favorite]
Mod note: I believe it's been discussed in terms of handling account wipes differently, but if you're hoping for this specific feature, I recommend adding it to the feature request form. (list of requests).
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:06 AM on March 29
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:06 AM on March 29
Ok done
posted by toodleydoodley at 7:28 AM on March 29 [1 favorite]
posted by toodleydoodley at 7:28 AM on March 29 [1 favorite]
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
Isn't the point of a moderation log to show the mod actions that are not visible and not obvious? I mean, thank you for doing literally anything differently for once, truly, but ??? Have I fundamentally misunderstood the purpose of a mod log or is this just... not. ? ??
posted by phunniemee at 5:17 PM on March 20 [24 favorites]